On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote:

> On Thursday 22 February 2007 11:08, Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote:
>>> How about cisco?  Well, they don't distribute their software
>>> either. They sell devices that run their software.  Let's take a
>>> look at the GPL itself:
>>>
>>> Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are
>>> not covered by this License; they are outside its scope.  The act
>>> of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the
>>> Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based
>>> on the Program (independent of having been made by running the
>>> Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does.
>>>
>>> How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device
>>> here) your microwave.  Can you get the source code for that, even
>>> though it's based on linux?  Of course not.  The manufacturer of
>>> the microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply
>>> selling a device that runs their software.
>>
>> That is a surprising interpretation.  I don't agree with it.  By
>> selling microwaves, the seller is *distributing* *copies* of the
>> software encoded within it.  The format is irrelevant -- HDD,
>> firmware, floppy, CD, etc. Thus, because selling microwaves
>> involved distributing and copying the modified GPL software, and
>> not just running the programs, the software on the microwave (or
>> other embedded devices) is covered by the GPL.
>>
>> If you have a source that contradicts my claim, please share it.
>>
>> Mike
>
> I don't need a source do I?

If you want me to care about what you are writing, yes.


> The fact that it's done with inpunity seems to back it up.

That isn't true.  Maybe that's one reason for having a source.


> When you sell a microwave are you distributing software in any sense of 
> the word?

Yes, of course, if the software is encoded in the hardware of the machine, 
as in your example, then obviously, yes, you are distributing software 
when you sell a microwave.


> You're distributing a piece of hardware that happens to have some 
> (rather inaccessable) software running in it....if you read the GPL, 
> especially the part I quoted, you'll notice 'running software' is not 
> covered by the GPL.

I think you are not able to correct yourself.


> I think you are the one that needs to provide extrodinary proof,
> either with court records of cisco paying out because they are
> breaking the GPL, or perhaps providing me with a copy of the software
> running on every embedded device running a derivative of linux in
> your house (hint, there's more of them then you probably think)

Whatever.

Mike