On Wed, 11 September 2002, "Chuck Cole" wrote:

Warning: This is a flame. (Mild for the most part.) If
these types of post annoy you please hit delete, or
next message now. I apologize for infringing on your
bandwidth.

<some content snipped for bandwidth>
> Wrong ideas about "educational standards:: some of the
> issues are whether
> TCLUG folk are the type/quality that a business might
> hire for serious
> technical stuff, or whether they are categorically a
> hobbyist group with at
> most non-degree technician skills... on the average
and
> the goal.  To
> welcome non-degreed folks from anywhere is fine, but
to
> indicate that the
> ceiling is no higher than vo-tech, and off the
academic
> track for
> professional skills (state regs indicate what
> "professional" means, and in
> engineering cases it is specific about having a
degree).
> 

Munir did such a nice job of pointing out the elitist
tone of your original post that I was prepared to let
this die then, but you had to through fuel on a burning
flame. 

I take your slams of "vo-techs" personally. As I have
stated in the past on this list I spent close to two
years in Duluth teaching in a "Career College" (what
you refer to scornfully as vo-techs). To my knowledge
we were the first school in the Duluth area (not UMD,
not St Scholastica, not Lake Superior College, not Fond
du Lac T&CC) to offer a course in Linux. Why? Because
the local and regional businesses that advised DBU
about what they needed and wanted to see in the skill
set of technicians they hired, thought it was good to
have people who new more than the MS operating systems.
Not all people in the IT world are engineers some of
them are technicians.

> 
> Meeting at a business does not reduce learning or
> technical excellence.
> Suffice to say that unix came from Bell Labs, a
> business, and that the best
> paying software/IT jobs are in high tech businesses
> here in town.  I think
> you are grossly wrong in that idea, but the life
> choices are yours, of
> course.  In general, competent people are paid for
what
> they can do, and
> high tech businesses pay to hire, support, and develop
> education in many
> ways.  Target (et al) might not.
> 

While the Bell Labs statement is accurate when it was
created it was an arm of a government supported
monopoly. AT&T could afford to have a pure research lab
because of that situation. With deregulation one of the
first "voluntary" spinoffs from AT&T was the Bell Labs
group into Bellcore and later Lucent. They now had to
"go it alone."


> Truck driving and department store PC repair is great,
> but it doesn't
> satisfy the state licensing regs for what
> "professional" engineering
> requires, nor does it add to a resume when seeking a
> professional caliber
> job.  Of course, it is an advancing gateway into "the
> business" for some,
> but my point is the tougher image one about the
implied
> ceilings on
> education and average levels of education. 

<flamethrower status="on" method="personal attack">
This paragraph shows that you are not elitist but an
uninformed idiot as well. Three of the most popular
programs at DBU are the Medical Assistant, Dental
Assistant, and Vetrinary Assistant programs. The MA and
DA programs lead to state board certifications. These
students are required to do practical training in
actual clinical environment. Not my idea of "ceiling on
education".

Many of my students in the Network Support program were
people who had degrees (some 2, some 4 year) in other
areas but had decided to change careers. One of my
first class of students was former farmer with a BA
from the U of Mn in agriculture and many years as farm
analyst for the US Dept. of Ag. 

Next time you make sweeping generalizations do one of
two things. Know your facts or put on your asbestos
underware
</flamethrower>

 

> Interesting question!  All the Linux users I knew
> before joining here are
> degreed engineers in high tech industry.  Some are
> brilliant PhDs who own
> businesses and employ people locally.  In fact, a PhD
> employed &quot;in business&quot;
> at UMN sent me a notice of an InstallFest and is the
> cause of my being here.
> I certainly welcome folks of all backgrounds, and
would
> encourage even JrHS
> kids to participate, but I wouldn't like the image
that
> TCLUG activity may
> be a "disqualifier" for solid technical values at
> levels above and way
> beyond the vo-techs.

Could it be that its because those are the people with
whom you associate?  Last I checked the LUG was a
"users group" and not a "professional society". If you
use Linux you are welcome.

> 
> &gt; anyways, enough ranting?
> 
> Not hardly enough!  The group needs to consider this
> stuff if it ever has a
> mission and enough form for serious non-profit
> donations of support to
> occur.
> One way to confuse these issues greatly would be for
> TCLUG to sponsor an
> Explorer Scout troop.. and welcome young women to
join.
>  The scout troop
> idea sets the aim to be education and the adults need
> only be good enough to
> help the kids.     :-)
> 

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought. (Which is
probably a good thing for me.) Are you in support of
sponsoring a scout troop? If so I say "Bravo!" if you
are implying that to be a bad idea then I return to my
original assessment of you as a pompass, arrogant,
elitist idiot.
 
> ---
> 
> Chuck
> 

Jack

Jack Ungerleider 
jack at jacku.com