From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Nov 12 21:49:38 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 03:49:38 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> This one's mainly for Rick. I am writing a comprehensive template (skeleton and example) C code to use Motif widgets with OpenGL, and I will put it on Github. I have a paper from the X journal (from 1994) that is the most concise example and description of how to do it, but it is a little inadequate in my opinion. Based on that and on a lot of other reading of the X Programing Manual Vol 6 -among others- I have started making this better example. At present it contains pull-down menus, buttons, a help menu, an area where OpenGL drawing is visualized (via GLX), a textbox that acts as a log/console, and a command-line input widget. That is pretty good for most things, but if anyone wants anything more, go ahead and make suggestions. I am working on a commercial project that needs this functionality and that is why I figured it is worth making an example public. From tclug at freakzilla.com Sat Nov 12 21:51:20 2016 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Clug) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 21:51:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> Message-ID: Holy hell, Motif hasn't died a well-deserved slow and painful death yet??? On Sun, 13 Nov 2016, Iznogoud wrote: > This one's mainly for Rick. > > I am writing a comprehensive template (skeleton and example) C code to use > Motif widgets with OpenGL, and I will put it on Github. I have a paper from the > X journal (from 1994) that is the most concise example and description of how > to do it, but it is a little inadequate in my opinion. Based on that and on a > lot of other reading of the X Programing Manual Vol 6 -among others- I have > started making this better example. > > At present it contains pull-down menus, buttons, a help menu, an area where > OpenGL drawing is visualized (via GLX), a textbox that acts as a log/console, > and a command-line input widget. That is pretty good for most things, but if > anyone wants anything more, go ahead and make suggestions. > > I am working on a commercial project that needs this functionality and that is > why I figured it is worth making an example public. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From eng at pinenet.com Sat Nov 12 23:07:51 2016 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:07:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> Sincere thanks, Iznogoud. I am interested. I got my ultra-top-secret (because nobody would or should care) FreePascal translation of the XForms-toolkit C headers working pretty well. The image library translation is fun. Aside from the many image format functions, raw 32 bit packed color arrays or raw 8 bit Red/Green/Blue Pascal arrays make a nice framebuffer that displays on an XWindow Canvas. Like old fashioned DOS in high resolution with animation, too. But then curiosity demanded I try FreePascal's "Lazarus" GUI system to compare. And I fell on my face. Old guys need to know they can't manage complexity, databases, or climb ladders. I have those X Manuals, 6A and 6B etc. If you are looking for rocket scientist feedback, I'm not it. But if I learn how GitHub works, I will enjoy trying your new toolkit examples. Your commercial OpenGL XWindow efforts are very important in many industries. Thanks for sharing this news. Please don't misinterpret old age for lack of interest. Iznogoud wrote: > This one's mainly for Rick. > > I am writing a comprehensive template (skeleton and example) C code to use > Motif widgets with OpenGL, and I will put it on Github. I have a paper from the > X journal (from 1994) that is the most concise example and description of how > to do it, but it is a little inadequate in my opinion. Based on that and on a > lot of other reading of the X Programing Manual Vol 6 -among others- I have > started making this better example. > > At present it contains pull-down menus, buttons, a help menu, an area where > OpenGL drawing is visualized (via GLX), a textbox that acts as a log/console, > and a command-line input widget. That is pretty good for most things, but if > anyone wants anything more, go ahead and make suggestions. > > I am working on a commercial project that needs this functionality and that is > why I figured it is worth making an example public. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Nov 13 12:10:04 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:10:04 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> > > I got my ultra-top-secret (because nobody would or should care) > FreePascal translation of the XForms-toolkit C headers working pretty > well. The image library translation is fun. Aside from the many image > format functions, raw 32 bit packed color arrays or raw 8 bit > Red/Green/Blue Pascal arrays make a nice framebuffer that displays on an > XWindow Canvas. Like old fashioned DOS in high resolution with > animation, too. > Rick, please look up github and what it does and share your (top-secret) code as an example. There can never be too much information about anything, really. I am on a consulting project that requires some GUI on top of scientific software and has to only run on Unix (Linux really). I got a head start so that I can get the example on Github (for all to see) before I am on that payroll. Motif is not free for commercial software; I would seek another toolkit to do this. > > Holy hell, Motif hasn't died a well-deserved slow and painful death yet??? > Motif is not dead. AMTEC's TecPlot just recently sqitched from Motif (over 20 years now) to something else (looks similar but is not). But there is still a lot of software that uses Motif, not just legacy software. I recall SDRC's I-DEAS (a CADD package from the 90s) had a Motif look, and it was running on windows over Xwin32. Oh, those were great old days. Rick is not the only old guy around! I'd use Xt straight up but I figured I really like the CDE (from IBM) and the MWM look of Motif. From kjh at flyballdogs.com Sun Nov 13 12:56:07 2016 From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:56:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> Message-ID: Isn't OpenMotif free to use in commercial software? http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/license/ On 2016-11-13 12:10, Iznogoud wrote: >> >> I got my ultra-top-secret (because nobody would or should care) >> FreePascal translation of the XForms-toolkit C headers working pretty >> well. The image library translation is fun. Aside from the many image >> format functions, raw 32 bit packed color arrays or raw 8 bit >> Red/Green/Blue Pascal arrays make a nice framebuffer that displays on >> an >> XWindow Canvas. Like old fashioned DOS in high resolution with >> animation, too. >> > > Rick, please look up github and what it does and share your > (top-secret) > code as an example. There can never be too much information about > anything, > really. > > I am on a consulting project that requires some GUI on top of > scientific > software and has to only run on Unix (Linux really). I got a head start > so > that I can get the example on Github (for all to see) before I am on > that > payroll. > > Motif is not free for commercial software; I would seek another toolkit > to > do this. > > >> >> Holy hell, Motif hasn't died a well-deserved slow and painful death >> yet??? >> > > Motif is not dead. AMTEC's TecPlot just recently sqitched from Motif > (over > 20 years now) to something else (looks similar but is not). But there > is > still a lot of software that uses Motif, not just legacy software. I > recall > SDRC's I-DEAS (a CADD package from the 90s) had a Motif look, and it > was > running on windows over Xwin32. Oh, those were great old days. Rick is > not > the only old guy around! > > I'd use Xt straight up but I figured I really like the CDE (from IBM) > and > the MWM look of Motif. > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Kathryn Minnesota Freeze Senior Coach & Women's Head Coach http://womensfooty.com From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Nov 13 14:09:51 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:09:51 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20161113200951.GA2171@nobelware.com> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:56:07PM -0600, Kathryn Hogg wrote: > > Isn't OpenMotif free to use in commercial software? > http://www.opengroup.org/openmotif/license/ > That is not clear, in my opinion (and I am not a lawyer, but I can read). Section 4 addresses commercial distribution, but talks solely about protecting the original copyright holders from mis-use or damage that is a result of using the "Program" ("Program" is defined as the Motif libraries). It states in Sec. 4 that the license is "intended to facilitate the commercial use" but this is subject to to the limitations provided in Section 2. In Sec. 2 it states that this license grants rights that are "limited solely" to distribution (and sublicensing) of the "Contributions" for operating systems which are themselves Open Source programs. ("Contributions" are defined as multiple things but is basically equivalent to "Program" in this case.) Sec. 2 continues with stating that the Open Group shall be contacted for license allowing distribution and sublicensing of the "Original Program" for operating systems which are not Open Source programs. (I think that is ambiguous...) Sec. 2 proceeds with some guarantees for anyone building software on it (that would be a person using this software for commercial use). It states that such software works can be distributed as source or object code _and_ royalty-free, which is your point exactly. After all of this, I still see that the license _facilitates_ commercial use but does not immediately grant it. The internetz claim it is free to link against, which is why people like me were developing for it but were using Lesstif (almost 100% compatible). Binaries can be linked against Motif, even if they are not themselves open-source. The long version can be found if you follow the links starting from Wikipedia. WP states that in 2012, after many years of being proprietary, it has been released under the GNU Lesser GPL, or LGPL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_%28software%29 Here comes the problem. A distributor of non-open software (binaries) would likely have to maintain a LOT of versions of the software and handle any incompatibilities at run-time given that their user can have any version of the Motif libraries installed (and that on top of a glibc that is different, GCC-lib interinsics that are different, etc). The solution is to get a license from the Open Group and narrow down the incompatibilities to much fewer. For mass-distribution binaries the process continues to suck. For a small company who talks to their clients to make software sales, all this can be bypassed as they can build specific versions for the client site's machines, etc. I worked for a company like that once. Software licensing is tricky. From eng at pinenet.com Sun Nov 13 15:56:51 2016 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:56:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Motif widgets In-Reply-To: <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> References: <20161020232011.GA21547@nobelware.com> <58095F62.8060208@pinenet.com> <20161021011820.GA26269@nobelware.com> <58099710.3050507@pinenet.com> <20161113034938.GA16694@nobelware.com> <5827F527.1040809@pinenet.com> <20161113181004.GA31198@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <5828E1A3.9010108@pinenet.com> Here are some links to some older XForms FreePascal Units and Demos. http://www.sytekcom.com/eng/Freepascal_XForms_Units.html http://www.sytekcom.com/eng/Freepascal_XForms_Demos.html I will be delighted to update the web pages to the newer, much better FreePascal Units that includes the image library and FreePascal 3.0. The indentation is a mess on the HTML because I have tab spaces set to 4 chars on my editor (motif NEdit, nice syntax highlighting) but it always converts to 8 copying it to HTML. The blue background (or yellow) is reminiscent of the cheap tissue paper used by programmers in olden days. Simply 1) select all 2) copy 3) paste to your editor 4) comment out the cursorfont.inc or dig it out of the FreePascal XForms Unit source. This was an older FreePascalCompiler and a rather messy stab at XForms 1.0.93 (IIRC) The FPC 3.0 and XForms 1.2.4 are both improved. FreePascal has a program (h2pas) that converts headers to pascal. Then I use NEdit to rename all the case sensitive C variable names, types, enums, structs, pointer stars, etc. to much easier to read names. A pointer to a FL_Form C structure reads p_FL_Form_Record. The Form with added objects is itself a Record. I don't recommend others replace their ignorance of C with this trick, so I don't push it. Iznogoud wrote: >> I got my ultra-top-secret (because nobody would or should care) >> FreePascal translation of the XForms-toolkit C headers working pretty >> well. The image library translation is fun. Aside from the many image >> format functions, raw 32 bit packed color arrays or raw 8 bit >> Red/Green/Blue Pascal arrays make a nice framebuffer that displays on an >> XWindow Canvas. Like old fashioned DOS in high resolution with >> animation, too. >> > Rick, please look up github and what it does and share your (top-secret) > code as an example. There can never be too much information about anything, > really. > > I am on a consulting project that requires some GUI on top of scientific > software and has to only run on Unix (Linux really). I got a head start so > that I can get the example on Github (for all to see) before I am on that > payroll. > > Motif is not free for commercial software; I would seek another toolkit to > do this. > > >> Holy hell, Motif hasn't died a well-deserved slow and painful death yet??? >> > Motif is not dead. AMTEC's TecPlot just recently sqitched from Motif (over > 20 years now) to something else (looks similar but is not). But there is > still a lot of software that uses Motif, not just legacy software. I recall > SDRC's I-DEAS (a CADD package from the 90s) had a Motif look, and it was > running on windows over Xwin32. Oh, those were great old days. Rick is not > the only old guy around! > > I'd use Xt straight up but I figured I really like the CDE (from IBM) and > the MWM look of Motif. > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 12:08:37 2016 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:08:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] internet testing Message-ID: Greetings I have been using www.testmy.net as a non-flash based (its html 5 IIUC) connection tester. My ISP on the other hand believes that only flash based tests like Ookla's are any good. Looking for thoughts and opinions on the differences between the two and which might actually be more accurate. Regards Dee From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Mon Nov 14 12:58:16 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:58:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] internet testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: speedof.me is a very good non-flash tester. I would never use an Ookla nearby server. I almost always do my baseline tests to a server in Regina, SK or California. Local results are often provided by the ISP itself and, therefore, skewed. > On Nov 14, 2016, at 12:08 PM, o1bigtenor wrote: > > Greetings > > I have been using www.testmy.net as a non-flash based (its html 5 > IIUC) connection tester. > > My ISP on the other hand believes that only flash based tests like > Ookla's are any good. > > Looking for thoughts and opinions on the differences between the two > and which might actually be more accurate. > > Regards > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From gsker at skerbitz.org Mon Nov 14 13:53:17 2016 From: gsker at skerbitz.org (gerry) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:53:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] internet testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As long as you're using the browser it seems like a skewed test to me. But I haven't seen different results with the cli version vs the browser test. I use speedtest-cli in ubuntu. It's python and it's in the repo. Here's CenturyLink's server compared to the ones in Regina and California: gsker at veeta:~>speedtest-cli Retrieving speedtest.net configuration... Retrieving speedtest.net server list... Testing from CenturyLink (XXX.XXX.XX.XXX)... Selecting best server based on latency... Hosted by CenturyLink (Saint Paul, MN) [17.01 km]: 43.071 ms Testing download speed........................................ Download: 35.72 Mbit/s Testing upload speed.................................................. Upload: 4.68 Mbit/s gsker at veeta:~>speedtest-cli --server 8200 Retrieving speedtest.net configuration... Retrieving speedtest.net server list... Testing from CenturyLink (XXX.XXX.XX.XXX)... Hosted by Access Communications Co-operative Limited (Regina, SK) [1037.63 km]: 101.369 ms Testing download speed........................................ Download: 33.67 Mbit/s Testing upload speed.................................................. Upload: 4.35 Mbit/s gsker at veeta:~>speedtest-cli --server 3864 Retrieving speedtest.net configuration... Retrieving speedtest.net server list... Testing from CenturyLink (184.100.75.148)... Hosted by California Internet Solutions (Los Angeles, CA) [2451.55 km]: 116.198 ms Testing download speed........................................ Download: 30.28 Mbit/s Testing upload speed.................................................. Upload: 4.64 Mbit/s BTW, Ookla has an HTML5 test too: http://beta.speedtest.net/# http://www.gsmarena.com/speed_test_no_longer_requires_flash-blog-15380.php You could compare the results from HTML5 and flash. Gerry On Mon, 14 Nov 2016, Ryan Coleman wrote: > speedof.me is a very good non-flash tester. > > I would never use an Ookla nearby server. I almost always do my baseline tests to a server in Regina, SK or California. Local results are often provided by the ISP itself and, therefore, skewed. > >> On Nov 14, 2016, at 12:08 PM, o1bigtenor wrote: >> >> Greetings >> >> I have been using www.testmy.net as a non-flash based (its html 5 >> IIUC) connection tester. >> >> My ISP on the other hand believes that only flash based tests like >> Ookla's are any good. >> >> Looking for thoughts and opinions on the differences between the two >> and which might actually be more accurate. >> >> Regards >> >> Dee >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From rick at tanners.org Mon Nov 14 14:47:09 2016 From: rick at tanners.org (Rick Tanner) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:47:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] internet testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adding to the list of already mentioned testing sites.. https://sourceforge.net/speedtest/ I sometimes use this site because it also tests latency/ping, download speed, upload speed and packet loss via HTML5 web interface. From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 11:36:42 2016 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:36:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] C++ Meetings Message-ID: In a recent podcast I heard that the C++ users group in Munich, Germany often has over 80 people at their meetings. I don't know much about Munich, but I think it's similar in size to the Twin Cities. If they have such a vibrant group in Munich, I think there's hope for a group in this area. I'm able to host meetings in the St. Paul area. I've thought that having a meeting every other month would make sense. Please let me know if you are interested. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Nov 15 11:44:13 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:44:13 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] C++ Meetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161115174413.GA9248@nobelware.com> I am sure there is interest. But I recommend that some topics are put forward to get an idea of what people's interests are. I also recommend that you lookup a group of this kind of Meetup.com. Although I am certain there are geeks among us who get sweaty palms when they see C++ in the subject line, this is a Linux group. Meetup groups is where to look for people. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:36:42AM -0600, Brian Wood wrote: > > In a recent podcast I heard that the C++ users group > in Munich, Germany often has over 80 people at their > meetings. I don't know much about Munich, but I think > it's similar in size to the Twin Cities. If they have such > a vibrant group in Munich, I think there's hope for a > group in this area. I'm able to host meetings in the > St. Paul area. I've thought that having a meeting every > other month would make sense. Please let me know if > you are interested. > From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 12:10:19 2016 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:10:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting Message-ID: Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Tue Nov 15 12:18:46 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:18:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian, You shouldn?t post to the list if you won?t reply to people replying to your posts. Just my two bits? ? Ryan > On Nov 15, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > > Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises > http://webEbenezer.net > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at lunn.ch Tue Nov 15 13:37:34 2016 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:37:34 +0100 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:18:46PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote: > Brian, > > You shouldn???t post to the list if you won???t reply to people replying to your posts. > Just my two bits??? I hope you are not expecting a reply :-) Plus, that is not what he said. And i agree with him, top posts are just wrong. RFC 1855, from 1995 explains the correct Netiquette, but i blame M$ Outlook making doing it wrong easy, and doing it right hard. Plus not educating the unwashed masses about Internet traditions. Andrew From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Nov 15 14:30:58 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:30:58 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> References: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20161115203058.GA15066@nobelware.com> Wow! And I actually went through the trouble of cleaning up the headers before I top-posted. I guess better quote nothing and have the threading functionality of the email client do the work. We are all better people now. From chapinjeff at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:37:05 2016 From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:37:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You make a convincing argument for the mailing list to require top-posting. Jeff On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises > http://webEbenezer.net > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Jeff Chapin President, CedarLug, retired President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it" President, UNI Scuba Club Senator, NISG, retired -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sfertch at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:17:54 2016 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:17:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> References: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2016 2:10 PM, "Andrew Lunn" wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:18:46PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote: > > Brian, > > > > You shouldn???t post to the list if you won???t reply to people replying to your posts. > > Just my two bits??? > > I hope you are not expecting a reply :-) > Or two.... > Plus, that is not what he said. And i agree with him, top posts are > just wrong. RFC 1855, from 1995 explains the correct Netiquette, but i > blame M$ Outlook making doing it wrong easy, and doing it right > hard. Plus not educating the unwashed masses about Internet > traditions. How would you explain the wrongs of texting? :-P For the record, top posting doesn't bother me. I just don't like scrolling through countless blather of text to get to the bottom of an email and read someone's one or two word reply. Rather anticlimactic... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew at lunn.ch Tue Nov 15 15:23:48 2016 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:23:48 +0100 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20161115212348.GD23231@lunn.ch> > I just don't like scrolling through countless blather of text to get > to the bottom of an email and read someone's one or two word reply. > Rather anticlimactic... And that is the other part of the Netiquette which 99% people of seem to of never learned. You are supposed to trim the emails to only what is relevant for your reply. Andrew From sfertch at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:31:23 2016 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:31:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: <20161115212348.GD23231@lunn.ch> References: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> <20161115212348.GD23231@lunn.ch> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2016 3:24 PM, "Andrew Lunn" wrote: > > And that is the other part of the Netiquette which 99% people of seem > to of never learned. You are supposed to trim the emails to only what > is relevant for your reply. Never have to worry about that with my dad as he doesn't know what a reply button is. He creates an entirely new email in response to someone. I did my best to teach him. But, at some point, it is better to just smile and walk away.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmore at starmind.org Tue Nov 15 15:26:34 2016 From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:26:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. > > of course > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises > worse options > http://webEbenezer.net > > for everyone. > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > ;) -Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chrome at real-time.com Tue Nov 15 16:05:58 2016 From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:05:58 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: <20161115212348.GD23231@lunn.ch> References: <20161115193734.GB31168@lunn.ch> <20161115212348.GD23231@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20161115220558.GH84231@real-time.com> On 11/15 10:23 , Andrew Lunn wrote: > And that is the other part of the Netiquette which 99% people of seem > to of never learned. You are supposed to trim the emails to only what > is relevant for your reply. Exactly. Time is precious, and forcing someone to wade through unnecessary text wastes their time. If you believe as I do that there is only a difference of degree between depriving a person of an hour of their life, and depriving them of the entirety of the remainder of their life, then wasting someone's time is in a very small degree murder, and thus morally wrong. (We may argue that this is mitigated by their choice to read what the writer has spewed, but I still hold that it is wrong to waste someone's time). One of the things I find most offensive about Microsoft products is how much they require the user to scroll around the output fields and resize columns just to see the entirety of the output. Consider this the next time you have to set up a printer under Windows, and scroll through a very long list of printers using a window only a few lines high. It would be far faster to maximize the window and pageup/pagedown, or grab a larger scrollbar. The time of millions of users wasted in aggreggate over the last 20 years by this malformed dialog box probably amounts to several human lifetimes. Linux-based applications are often better about this, but sometimes not... -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:06:04 2016 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:06:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94e7318b-6522-e4c1-8fc2-8a1cefce0bf9@gmail.com> On 11/15/2016 12:10 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. > One could make an argument that you actually did rely to a top post ;) > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises > http://webEbenezer.net > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From admin at lctn.org Wed Nov 16 09:38:57 2016 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:38:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] no menu on pxe boot Message-ID: <1207566472.63950.1479310737901.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org> Trying to do a netinstall of Mint but not getting a menu prompt. DHCP on Mikrotik router is set to "next server: 10.x.x.x and boot file name: default. /tftpboot/default contains the following: default menu.c32 prompt 0 timeout 300 ONTIMEOUT local MENU TITLE PXE Menu menu separator LABEL LinuxMint KERNEL images/lmin/vmlinuz APPEND root=/dev/nfs boot=casper netboot=nfs nfsroot=10.10.x.x:/tftpboot/images/linuxmint initrd=images/lmin/initrd.lz nosplash -- /tftpboot/images/linuxmint is configured for nfs export. Laptop picks up an IP and apparently finds /tftpboot/default but the cursor just blinks and a boot menu does not appear. ideas?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From admin at lctn.org Wed Nov 16 10:11:25 2016 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:11:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] no menu on pxe boot In-Reply-To: <1207566472.63950.1479310737901.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org> References: <1207566472.63950.1479310737901.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org> Message-ID: <419767669.64011.1479312685404.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org> Trying to do a netinstall of Mint but not getting a menu prompt. DHCP on Mikrotik router is set to "next server: 10.x.x.x and boot file name: default. Figured it out. Missing files -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theixian at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 13:52:24 2016 From: theixian at hotmail.com (Loren Burlingame) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:52:24 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries Message-ID: Here is the scenario: I have written a simple little Perl script which runs on an Linux web host. The purpose is to track the IP of laptop computers we own. The laptops are Windows 10. They run a little PowerShell script triggered off of an event (when an IP address is assigned to an interface). The computer name along with a couple of parameters is encoded in base64 and this string is passed in the URL to the Perl script on the server over unencrypted HTTP. The base64 encoding is in no way an attempt to encrypt or "secure" the communication, it is just a convenient way to get all of the parameters into a single HTTP GET parameter. The server-side Perl script is set up in such a way that if any query that isn't recognized is received, an error page is displayed. Only strictly sanitized input is then inserted into an SQLite db file. So the parameters have to be perfectly ordered and then encoded then received, decoded, checked and then finally inserted. Here is the confounding part: Twice now, in as many days, I have seen a duplicate of a query for two of our laptops come in from unexpected IPs and written to the db file. The laptops in question are sitting in our office, have not been touched by users and have no correlating events in their logs. The querying IPs are only a few octets apart (65.208.151.114 and 65.208.151.119) and both show that they belong to a block of IPs owned by Kintiskton LLC (a subnet of a Verizon Business block). Both IPs geo-locate to La Hara, California (a suburb of Los Angeles). They also are using a strange UA: "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1)" I found these pages when searching for Kintiskton: http://www.guyellisrocks.com/2012/01/kintiskton-llc-ip-ranges.html https://ceph.algia.co.uk/wp/kintiskton-or-the-story-of-the-copyright-vigilantes/ So this would appear to be a web spider of some kind which, according to some, is poorly written, extremely aggressive and ignores robots.txt. I get that the site will be crawled and it doesn't surprise me that this was within an hour or so of it first going up. What I don't understand is how an entity out on the net is able to, apparently, know the full URLs including queries and parameters of a site which I just put up and only just queried myself? Anyone up for schooling me on this new fangled Internet thing? --Loren -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Thu Nov 17 14:48:44 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:48:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries Message-ID: like kinkyton's mebby a front for the N-A, privvy to full realtime transcript of traffic, good ole netintelligence, wannabee superintelligence, our soontobe G-d like neverseenbefore? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nassarmu at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:21:16 2016 From: nassarmu at gmail.com (Munir Nassar) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:21:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it possible that they were able to download your server side script? is that directory open in such a way to allow them access to download rather then execute? does the script leak those parameters when executed? here is what i do for similar situations: 1. enable https: it really does not hurt and this should just be on by default. 2. use an api string or use a custom user agent string: only clients with the correct string will actually be listened to (this will help you in the future too) 3. enable http auth: even if it is stupid data; it keeps away those random rubbernecker and crawlers that ignore robots.txt, you can even use REMOTE_USER as additional metadata that can be used to track down systems. On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Loren Burlingame wrote: > Here is the scenario: > > > I have written a simple little Perl script which runs on an Linux web host. > > > The purpose is to track the IP of laptop computers we own. > > > The laptops are Windows 10. They run a little PowerShell script triggered > off of an event (when an IP address is assigned to an interface). > > > The computer name along with a couple of parameters is encoded in base64 and > this string is passed in the URL to the Perl script on the server over > unencrypted HTTP. > > > The base64 encoding is in no way an attempt to encrypt or "secure" the > communication, it is just a convenient way to get all of the parameters into > a single HTTP GET parameter. > > > The server-side Perl script is set up in such a way that if any query that > isn't recognized is received, an error page is displayed. > > > Only strictly sanitized input is then inserted into an SQLite db file. So > the parameters have to be perfectly ordered and then encoded then received, > decoded, checked and then finally inserted. > > > Here is the confounding part: > > > Twice now, in as many days, I have seen a duplicate of a query for two of > our laptops come in from unexpected IPs and written to the db file. > > > The laptops in question are sitting in our office, have not been touched by > users and have no correlating events in their logs. > > > The querying IPs are only a few octets apart (65.208.151.114 and > 65.208.151.119) and both show that they belong to a block of IPs owned by > Kintiskton LLC (a subnet of a Verizon Business block). Both IPs geo-locate > to La Hara, California (a suburb of Los Angeles). They also are using a > strange UA: "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1)" > > > I found these pages when searching for Kintiskton: > > > http://www.guyellisrocks.com/2012/01/kintiskton-llc-ip-ranges.html > > https://ceph.algia.co.uk/wp/kintiskton-or-the-story-of-the-copyright-vigilantes/ > > > So this would appear to be a web spider of some kind which, according to > some, is poorly written, extremely aggressive and ignores robots.txt. > > > I get that the site will be crawled and it doesn't surprise me that this was > within an hour or so of it first going up. > > > What I don't understand is how an entity out on the net is able to, > apparently, know the full URLs including queries and parameters of a site > which I just put up and only just queried myself? > > > Anyone up for schooling me on this new fangled Internet thing? > > > --Loren > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Thu Nov 17 15:48:54 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:48:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B072858-A631-4FF5-9387-FF73268C6430@cwis.biz> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 1:52 PM, Loren Burlingame wrote: > > What I don't understand is how an entity out on the net is able to, apparently, know the full URLs including queries and parameters of a site which I just put up and only just queried myself? > > Anyone up for schooling me on this new fangled Internet thing? > Web browser plugins, perhaps? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theixian at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:42:47 2016 From: theixian at hotmail.com (Loren Burlingame) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:42:47 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: >Is it possible that they were able to download your server side >script? is that directory open in such a way to allow them access to >download rather then execute? does the script leak those parameters >when executed? No, directory listing is forbidden and the script is not downloadable. I am not sure what you mean by "leak those parameters" The script just takes in a normal HTTP GET and ultimately either shows an error page or a report page depending on the parameters. Even if the parameters are correct, the user still sees an error page when the IP is logged. >here is what i do for similar situations: >1. enable https: it really does not hurt and this should just be on by default. Yeah, I may or may not do this. I realize that it is trivial but it is even more trivial to not do it. >2. use an api string or use a custom user agent string: only clients >with the correct string will actually be listened to (this will help >you in the future too) I considered this and may still implement it. >3. enable http auth: even if it is stupid data; it keeps away those >random rubbernecker and crawlers that ignore robots.txt, you can even >use REMOTE_USER as additional metadata that can be used to track down >systems. What I am really wondering here is how the full exact query was captured and then repeated by a 3rd party out in the wild. The implications are kind of scary. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theixian at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:47:40 2016 From: theixian at hotmail.com (Loren Burlingame) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:47:40 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: <9B072858-A631-4FF5-9387-FF73268C6430@cwis.biz> References: , <9B072858-A631-4FF5-9387-FF73268C6430@cwis.biz> Message-ID: >>What I don't understand is how an entity out on the net is able to, apparently, know the full URLs including queries and parameters of a site which I just put up and only just queried myself?>>Anyone up for schooling me on this new fangled Internet thing? >Web browser plugins, perhaps? The client that is querying, in this case, is a PowerShell script and doesn't have any plugins that I am aware of. When I query the same script for the report page, it is from a web browser, but the parameter passed is not the same as the PowerShell script's parameter. It is the PowerShell script's full query including the parameter that is being duplicated, not my browser's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Thu Nov 17 17:09:58 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:09:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: <9B072858-A631-4FF5-9387-FF73268C6430@cwis.biz> Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:47 PM, Loren Burlingame wrote: > > >Web browser plugins, perhaps? > > The client that is querying, in this case, is a PowerShell script and doesn't have any plugins that I am aware of. > > When I query the same script for the report page, it is from a web browser, but the parameter passed is not the same as the PowerShell script's parameter. > > It is the PowerShell script's full query including the parameter that is being duplicated, not my browser?s. Then I would suspect there?s a packet sniffer out there on an infected computer (not necessarily yours) that is getting this information via WiFi? Of course, that means your laptop is on WiFi phoning home. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Thu Nov 17 17:18:19 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:18:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries Message-ID: > > What I am really wondering here is how the full exact query was captured > and then repeated by a 3rd party out in the wild. The implications are kind > of scary. > scary = prefer not to think about. an understandable, and ubiquitous preference. which leaves leagues of leeway for such activity to accrete. Then I would suspect there?s a packet sniffer out there on an infected > computer (not necessarily yours) that is getting this information via WiFi? > Of course, that means your laptop is on WiFi phoning home. > could be anywhere, eg modem, or at the provider -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Thu Nov 17 19:43:45 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:43:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67CF7877-414A-40CE-A4B5-AAD1D098B8F1@cwis.biz> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:18 PM, gregrwm wrote: > > What I am really wondering here is how the full exact query was captured and then repeated by a 3rd party out in the wild. The implications are kind of scary. > > scary = prefer not to think about. an understandable, and ubiquitous preference. which leaves leagues of leeway for such activity to accrete. > > Then I would suspect there?s a packet sniffer out there on an infected computer (not necessarily yours) that is getting this information via WiFi? Of course, that means your laptop is on WiFi phoning home. > > could be anywhere, eg modem, or at the provider Which is why sending it over HTTPS and as a POST is a better idea. The host name could even be maintained in a host file or on a private DNS server so that the domain isn?t even public? although that would be part of the transmission packet header. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Fri Nov 18 14:08:56 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:08:56 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161118200856.GA12063@nobelware.com> Scary. How much access do you have to monitoring the network traffic of where the server sits (that subnet)? Your laptops can be "here at the office" and your webserver in my basement. If my basement has a host of issues with packets being sniffed, there is little you can do (without HTTPS, etc) to keep those URLs from being seen by unwanted parties. It IS your fault... (blaming the victim). For anything like this you need to authenticate. There is this snippet of an interview or mock interview of an intern that goes in a webservices place. The discussion post interview among the interviewees goes like this: - "He flanked because blah..." - "No. He flanked earlier when he did not authenticate in blah..." If _your_ computer is to do anything that _only_it_ is supposed to do, it needs to authenticate. Take this with a grain of salt, for I am not an expert. Let us know what you find. From theixian at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 14:44:58 2016 From: theixian at hotmail.com (Loren Burlingame) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:44:58 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: <20161118200856.GA12063@nobelware.com> References: , <20161118200856.GA12063@nobelware.com> Message-ID: >How much access do you have to monitoring the network traffic of where the >server sits (that subnet)? The server is a multi-tenant web host. Standard inexpensive host on the Internet. So... none really. Not even the HTTPD server logs. >It IS your fault... (blaming the victim). For anything like this you need to >authenticate. Yeah, I realize I could head this stuff off by simply authenticating and encrypting. I am not really concerned all that much about this other than the "how" or even the "why" of it. I realize that certain folks at various points along the traversal path will have full access to the packets. But I had always assumed that these actors would be state or carrier level. At the very least, I thought that my uninteresting packets (I mean, literally just a few queries worth in the ocean of the packets traversing the net) would go without notice. What this incident has shown me is that any unencrypted browsing WILL be intercepted and analyzed. Sort of a reality check if you will. I had heard stories of people who swear they were compromised after sending an e-mail with a password in it. I always thought it was a little far fetched... but given that most SMTP is probably still not encrypted, perhaps there is something to the stories after all. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I will update if I learn any more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Fri Nov 18 15:04:29 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:04:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: <20161118200856.GA12063@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <34928493-8E95-4E50-BEE7-DA0D23C932EE@cwis.biz> > On Nov 18, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Loren Burlingame wrote: > > I had heard stories of people who swear they were compromised after sending an e-mail with a password in it. I always thought it was a little far fetched... but given that most SMTP is probably still not encrypted, perhaps there is something to the stories after all. > This is the very reason my firm no longer allows any unencrypted transfer of information? All of our websites, short of the main landing pages, are SSL-supported; the FTP, SMTP, IMAP all SSL-supported. No longer allow web site management or updating when not on the VPN, etc. The only thing I have?t required is closed tunnel VPN connections, but that might come in the near future as we have more and more schools blocking SMTP, FTP and other basic functions over their guest WiFi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Nov 18 15:06:41 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:06:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries Message-ID: > > But I had always assumed that these actors would be state or carrier level. > > any reason to think differently now? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From theixian at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 15:20:57 2016 From: theixian at hotmail.com (Loren Burlingame) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 21:20:57 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >any reason to think differently now? Well.. yeah, in addition to the state and carrier level. It is also apparently possible for some weird web crawler with (RI|MP)AA ties to pull L7 packet data of the wire somewhere along the way. I don't know, perhaps the simplest answer is that it is the web host I am using (GoDaddy) sells their web access log data.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Nov 19 12:23:14 2016 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:23:14 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> > > I don't know, perhaps the simplest answer is that it is the web host I am using (GoDaddy) sells their web access log data.... > (Loren is smart.) This is precisely why I asked the first question I asked. This looks like a job from the provider, not some random entity outside. It computes... Here is a company that wants to crawl deep and catalogue URLs and the web (for either money-making or nefarious reasons). Here is a company that can make a buck (or more than a buck) by selling its customers and their traffic as a product. (Google operates on that model; we, the users, are its product and have been.) Given the modern use of the internet for moneymaking under this model and that out very government has gone the length to capture web traffic, this is no real surprise. Here is a problem with your weblogs being kept by your webserver provider, it defeats HTTPS. Looking at logs from HTTPS is just like looking at logs of HTTP, etc. Also, suppose you encrypted from the client-side and were deciphering on the server side, it can be defeated. But somebody would have to break laws (digging in your server-side files) to do it. However, there is nothing but a terms-and-conditions negotiation with the provider to stop them from doing anything with your weblogs. Do me a favour and put a print statement in your Perl script that indicates that unahtorized access of this URL is disallowed. It will not stop the problem, but it pushes a basis for making the other party's access to your logs illegal. Some general comments. This is our fault... for wonting convenience. Our fault for making technology so accessible to everyone. Anyone can have a website now, but that convenience comes with lack of security/privacy, depending on how paranoid one is. We are just not victimized as often. I have been running all my webspots from a virtual server for about 10 years now, starting form Slicehost before they were purchased by Rackspace. Back in the slicehost days, and to my knowledge still today, they had been very careful with not allowing inner and outer compromise of user data. To some extent I am valnurable to loss of privacy. But at the very least I have my web logs and SQL dbase on my "own" filesystem. There are questions about that as well. form the inside (Rackspace), even encrypted containers can be accessed because the system is virtualized. Anyway, the short story is that if you are getting serviced by somebody else at the software level, you are giving up a lot of security. Please update us if you find anything else. From PJ.world at hotmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:18:12 2016 From: PJ.world at hotmail.com (paul g) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:18:12 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: What is a top post? ________________________________ From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Jeff Chapin Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 2:37 PM To: TCLUG Mailing List Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Top posting You make a convincing argument for the mailing list to require top-posting. Jeff On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood > wrote: Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Jeff Chapin President, CedarLug, retired President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it" President, UNI Scuba Club Senator, NISG, retired -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kris.browne at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:37:12 2016 From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 18:37:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The unforgivable sin of placing your reply above the previous content, rather than below a meticulously curated selection elucidating what you're responding to. (\(\ ( -.-) Kris Browne o_(")(") kris.browne at gmail.com > On Nov 21, 2016, at 17:18, paul g wrote: > > What is a top post? > > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Jeff Chapin > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 2:37 PM > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Top posting > > You make a convincing argument for the mailing list to require top-posting. > > Jeff > >> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood wrote: >> Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. >> >> Brian >> Ebenezer Enterprises >> http://webEbenezer.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > > > -- > Jeff Chapin > President, CedarLug, retired > President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it" > President, UNI Scuba Club > Senator, NISG, retired > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Mon Nov 21 19:07:45 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:07:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top posting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you did, and I am doing? rather than follow the flow of conversation the thread goes in reverse? in replies it is newest content to oldest. It?s not the most logical means to read a conversation? but most mail applications now do it that way. Fine for private communications, but a bear to follow an email thread with. > On Nov 21, 2016, at 5:18 PM, paul g wrote: > > What is a top post? > > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Jeff Chapin > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 2:37 PM > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Top posting > > You make a convincing argument for the mailing list to require top-posting. > > Jeff > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Brian Wood > wrote: > Sorry, but I don't reply to top posts. > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises > http://webEbenezer.net > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > -- > Jeff Chapin > President, CedarLug, retired > President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it" > President, UNI Scuba Club > Senator, NISG, retired > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Tue Nov 22 14:03:19 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:03:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers Message-ID: anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Tue Nov 22 15:06:42 2016 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:06:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 22, 2016, at 2:03 PM, gregrwm wrote: > > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Tue Nov 22 15:21:18 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:21:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers Message-ID: > > > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is > either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% > of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to > learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? > > Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) > yeah, and noscript used to be a halfdecent way to make that almost workable, but recent reality is nearly everything out there needs javascript in order to be viewed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n0nas at amsat.org Wed Nov 23 19:50:09 2016 From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:50:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 143, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dropped NoScript a while ago, became too annoying. I'm using the AdBlock Origin add-on for FireFox now. It kills most ads, lets most on-topic things pop-up, so I'm happy. A few web sites ask me to turn it off. I have never tried to train it. Does have multiple levels and outside lists it can use. Doug. On 11/23/16, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. disgusting popovers (gregrwm) > 2. Re: disgusting popovers (Ryan Coleman) > 3. Re: disgusting popovers (gregrwm) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:03:19 -0600 > From: gregrwm > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is > either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% > of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to > learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:06:42 -0600 > From: Ryan Coleman > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> On Nov 22, 2016, at 2:03 PM, gregrwm wrote: >> >> anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is >> either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% >> of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to >> learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? > > Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:21:18 -0600 > From: gregrwm > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> >> > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is >> either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about >> 95% >> of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to >> learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? >> >> Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) >> > > yeah, and noscript used to be a halfdecent way to make that almost > workable, but recent reality is nearly everything out there needs > javascript in order to be viewed. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 143, Issue 12 > ******************************************* > -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin "When seconds count, help is only minutes away." Does Gun Control protect you, the criminal, or the Government? From PJ.world at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 10:40:09 2016 From: PJ.world at hotmail.com (paul g) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 16:40:09 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 143, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Gobble Gobble! ________________________________ From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Doug Reed Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 7:50 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: Re: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 143, Issue 12 I dropped NoScript a while ago, became too annoying. I'm using the AdBlock Origin add-on for FireFox now. It kills most ads, lets most on-topic things pop-up, so I'm happy. A few web sites ask me to turn it off. I have never tried to train it. Does have multiple levels and outside lists it can use. Doug. On 11/23/16, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list tclug-list Info Page - mailman.mn-linux.org mailman.mn-linux.org The Twin Cities Linux Users Group is a group of Linux users in the Twin Cities (Minnesota) area. We have monthly meetings in which we discuss various topics releated ... > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. disgusting popovers (gregrwm) > 2. Re: disgusting popovers (Ryan Coleman) > 3. Re: disgusting popovers (gregrwm) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 14:03:19 -0600 > From: gregrwm > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is > either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% > of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to > learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:06:42 -0600 > From: Ryan Coleman > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> On Nov 22, 2016, at 2:03 PM, gregrwm wrote: >> >> anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is >> either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about 95% >> of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to >> learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? > > Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:21:18 -0600 > From: gregrwm > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> >> > anyone know of any (preferably chromium, perhaps firefox) addon that is >> either itself intelligent enough to thwart only the undesirable (about >> 95% >> of) popovers, or works cleverly either with clicks or with "inspect" to >> learn what the user does not wish to bothered by? >> >> Primary solution is disable JavaScript :) >> > > yeah, and noscript used to be a halfdecent way to make that almost > workable, but recent reality is nearly everything out there needs > javascript in order to be viewed. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 143, Issue 12 > ******************************************* > -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin "When seconds count, help is only minutes away." Does Gun Control protect you, the criminal, or the Government? _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 21:06:17 2016 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 21:06:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7942eef8-4400-e610-424d-61f46383638b@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Sun Nov 27 16:24:21 2016 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:24:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers Message-ID: > > Installing uBlock Origin is a good start for any browser. If the > pop-overs are served from a typical ad server, they won't even make it to > the page. > Its available for Chrome, firefox, and even firefox on android. > ty. what's your insight re ublock origin vs ublock vs whateverElse? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 17:17:20 2016 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:17:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disgusting popovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: