From jpschewe at mtu.net  Tue Jan  1 10:49:09 2013
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 10:49:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
Message-ID: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have an NVIDIA GeForce 6150 built on my motherboard. I don't do 3D stuff,
no gaming, no major graphics. I'm running Ubuntu in Gnome Classic mode
without effects. I'm still getting really high CPU load from Xorg doing
many things. So I'm looking for an inexpensive PciE graphics card to
replace my onboard one. Any suggestions for cards that are well supported
by Linux, particularly Ubuntu?

Thanks, Jon


-- 
http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 11:11:44 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:11:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>

Happy New Year Luggers and Jon,

Pretty much all NVIDIA cards do  well in Linux with proprietary
drivers (getting about middle of the road with open source nouveau),
so sticking with a few models later than your 6150 would be helpful.
If you want a decent upgrade that isn't high end or too much overkill,
the 550 ti has been great for me and I still use it (I game a little
with the Linux beta of Steam and a few classic GL games). It may be
more than you need (around $100 - $150 online new).

Better yet, keep your card, save your money, and switch to a different
desktop environment like XFCE or LXDE. I use XFCE with compositing
turned off and it does extremely well on all my Linux systems both low
and high end GPUs. Gnome3 is trying to squeeze in pretty effects (IMHO
failing at being pretty- reminds me of Taylor Swift's hair style last
night at Times Square) to run on all hardware and I think the fallback
is or has gone away from being supported. Not sure if it's hard to
switch to XFCE with Ubuntu since I don't use it- perhaps others on the
list have some insight?

Good luck. Also, if you go the route of upgrading video cards- perhaps
noting the revision of your PCIE slot would also help the list make a
better recommendation suited for your system.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
>
> I have an NVIDIA GeForce 6150 built on my motherboard. I don't do 3D stuff, no gaming, no major graphics. I'm running Ubuntu in Gnome Classic mode without effects. I'm still getting really high CPU load from Xorg doing many things. So I'm looking for an inexpensive PciE graphics card to replace my onboard one. Any suggestions for cards that are well supported by Linux, particularly Ubuntu?
>
> Thanks, Jon
>
>
> --
> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 11:14:01 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:14:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Forgot to mention, AMD GPU in my experience has been terrible in
Linux. I haven't went with them in 10 years because of their Linux
support. With my distro you have to stay behind kernel releases just
to get the dated AMD proprietary drivers to compile- not sure how the
open source has been going though.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Happy New Year Luggers and Jon,
>
> Pretty much all NVIDIA cards do  well in Linux with proprietary
> drivers (getting about middle of the road with open source nouveau),
> so sticking with a few models later than your 6150 would be helpful.
> If you want a decent upgrade that isn't high end or too much overkill,
> the 550 ti has been great for me and I still use it (I game a little
> with the Linux beta of Steam and a few classic GL games). It may be
> more than you need (around $100 - $150 online new).
>
> Better yet, keep your card, save your money, and switch to a different
> desktop environment like XFCE or LXDE. I use XFCE with compositing
> turned off and it does extremely well on all my Linux systems both low
> and high end GPUs. Gnome3 is trying to squeeze in pretty effects (IMHO
> failing at being pretty- reminds me of Taylor Swift's hair style last
> night at Times Square) to run on all hardware and I think the fallback
> is or has gone away from being supported. Not sure if it's hard to
> switch to XFCE with Ubuntu since I don't use it- perhaps others on the
> list have some insight?
>
> Good luck. Also, if you go the route of upgrading video cards- perhaps
> noting the revision of your PCIE slot would also help the list make a
> better recommendation suited for your system.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
>>
>> I have an NVIDIA GeForce 6150 built on my motherboard. I don't do 3D stuff, no gaming, no major graphics. I'm running Ubuntu in Gnome Classic mode without effects. I'm still getting really high CPU load from Xorg doing many things. So I'm looking for an inexpensive PciE graphics card to replace my onboard one. Any suggestions for cards that are well supported by Linux, particularly Ubuntu?
>>
>> Thanks, Jon
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>

From droidjd at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 11:25:33 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:25:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdwNfU0Vap1NUmNQ4chPTOJGyk8ycpz4hrUQzBb8OvFDMA@mail.gmail.com>

AMD GPU support is pretty good these days, in my experience. The OSS
drivers also work well enough for me to forgo the proprietary ones
(usually), specifically because using xrandr is easier to me than the ATI
Control Center. I have three monitors with a resolution of 4960x1600 with
one AMD card on the OSS drivers and can still do 3d pretty well. (Better 3D
with the proprietary ones)

I'd recommend any newer AMD card with the OSS drivers, else you really
can't go wrong with nVidia.
On Jan 1, 2013 11:14 AM, "Jeremy MountainJohnson" <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Forgot to mention, AMD GPU in my experience has been terrible in
> Linux. I haven't went with them in 10 years because of their Linux
> support. With my distro you have to stay behind kernel releases just
> to get the dated AMD proprietary drivers to compile- not sure how the
> open source has been going though.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Happy New Year Luggers and Jon,
> >
> > Pretty much all NVIDIA cards do  well in Linux with proprietary
> > drivers (getting about middle of the road with open source nouveau),
> > so sticking with a few models later than your 6150 would be helpful.
> > If you want a decent upgrade that isn't high end or too much overkill,
> > the 550 ti has been great for me and I still use it (I game a little
> > with the Linux beta of Steam and a few classic GL games). It may be
> > more than you need (around $100 - $150 online new).
> >
> > Better yet, keep your card, save your money, and switch to a different
> > desktop environment like XFCE or LXDE. I use XFCE with compositing
> > turned off and it does extremely well on all my Linux systems both low
> > and high end GPUs. Gnome3 is trying to squeeze in pretty effects (IMHO
> > failing at being pretty- reminds me of Taylor Swift's hair style last
> > night at Times Square) to run on all hardware and I think the fallback
> > is or has gone away from being supported. Not sure if it's hard to
> > switch to XFCE with Ubuntu since I don't use it- perhaps others on the
> > list have some insight?
> >
> > Good luck. Also, if you go the route of upgrading video cards- perhaps
> > noting the revision of your PCIE slot would also help the list make a
> > better recommendation suited for your system.
> >
> > --
> > Jeremy MountainJohnson
> > Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have an NVIDIA GeForce 6150 built on my motherboard. I don't do 3D
> stuff, no gaming, no major graphics. I'm running Ubuntu in Gnome Classic
> mode without effects. I'm still getting really high CPU load from Xorg
> doing many things. So I'm looking for an inexpensive PciE graphics card to
> replace my onboard one. Any suggestions for cards that are well supported
> by Linux, particularly Ubuntu?
> >>
> >> Thanks, Jon
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 11:28:02 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:28:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEEU9ncM3CjqCmDMG2vABozsObzJr4tHMphy8FR-SVcTYw@mail.gmail.com>

I really can't make sense of the whole video card debate. On the one
hand, Linus has blasted Nvidia, but for a long time I thought they
were preferred among Linux users.

With recent machines that I've purchased I've been less than happy
with the NVidia cards, both with open source drivers and the
proprietary one.

However I haven't heard anything particularly good about ATI/AMD either.

For my needs, I'll probably just stick with Intel for the foreseeable
future. I've switched from the more resource intensive window managers
to using Xmonad and I'm quite happy with it.

I remember when Compiz came out -- it completely blew my mind. I used
it happily for a year, but then moved to a different machine and
couldn't get it to work due to issues with the video card. Now the
project seems to be shutting down, and everyone is unhappy with where
Ubuntu is going with their window manager. Weird stuff. Seems like a
big regression.

-Erik


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Forgot to mention, AMD GPU in my experience has been terrible in
> Linux. I haven't went with them in 10 years because of their Linux
> support. With my distro you have to stay behind kernel releases just
> to get the dated AMD proprietary drivers to compile- not sure how the
> open source has been going though.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Happy New Year Luggers and Jon,
>>
>> Pretty much all NVIDIA cards do  well in Linux with proprietary
>> drivers (getting about middle of the road with open source nouveau),
>> so sticking with a few models later than your 6150 would be helpful.
>> If you want a decent upgrade that isn't high end or too much overkill,
>> the 550 ti has been great for me and I still use it (I game a little
>> with the Linux beta of Steam and a few classic GL games). It may be
>> more than you need (around $100 - $150 online new).
>>
>> Better yet, keep your card, save your money, and switch to a different
>> desktop environment like XFCE or LXDE. I use XFCE with compositing
>> turned off and it does extremely well on all my Linux systems both low
>> and high end GPUs. Gnome3 is trying to squeeze in pretty effects (IMHO
>> failing at being pretty- reminds me of Taylor Swift's hair style last
>> night at Times Square) to run on all hardware and I think the fallback
>> is or has gone away from being supported. Not sure if it's hard to
>> switch to XFCE with Ubuntu since I don't use it- perhaps others on the
>> list have some insight?
>>
>> Good luck. Also, if you go the route of upgrading video cards- perhaps
>> noting the revision of your PCIE slot would also help the list make a
>> better recommendation suited for your system.
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy MountainJohnson
>> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an NVIDIA GeForce 6150 built on my motherboard. I don't do 3D stuff, no gaming, no major graphics. I'm running Ubuntu in Gnome Classic mode without effects. I'm still getting really high CPU load from Xorg doing many things. So I'm looking for an inexpensive PciE graphics card to replace my onboard one. Any suggestions for cards that are well supported by Linux, particularly Ubuntu?
>>>
>>> Thanks, Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 11:20:43 2013
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 11:20:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEEU9ncM3CjqCmDMG2vABozsObzJr4tHMphy8FR-SVcTYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEEU9ncM3CjqCmDMG2vABozsObzJr4tHMphy8FR-SVcTYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMh5oVq2-p2PGqU8dkAFD8Cn6jWzUpihzKpnh8pePuYaPMXY3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Before you try a new card, have you tried installing nvidia's Linux
drivers? (http://www.nvidia.com/Download or possibly in your distribution's
software repository.) It could be your not taking full advantage of your
GPU due to driver/configuration issue, and if that's the case a new video
card wouldn't fix it.


On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> I really can't make sense of the whole video card debate. On the one
> hand, Linus has blasted Nvidia, but for a long time I thought they
> were preferred among Linux users.


Nvidia hasn't released the technical information needed to create open
source drivers, instead releasing their own binary only drivers with
varying degrees of stability. Even so, nvidia was still the best option for
3D acceleration under Linux for a long time.

--
Andrew Zbikowski
http://andy.zibnet.us/
Live every week like it's Shark Week.
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From tclug at mikerochford.com  Wed Jan  2 13:49:40 2013
From: tclug at mikerochford.com (Mike Rochford)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:49:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: 1U rackmount server
Message-ID: <CAMWpi9BYRu4R_nrFLtDih-vQPfhdT1zMA0Low3RNVB6zX5nNTw@mail.gmail.com>

I am cleaning up a colo I have and no longer need this server.

Dell R300 ,
QuadCore 2.66GHz ,
16GB ram,
PERC 6/iR SAS controller,
2x73GB 15K SAS drives
Dual power supplies.
Rail Kit included.

Looking for $500/bo

From jpschewe at mtu.net  Wed Jan  2 18:12:58 2013
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 18:12:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <CAMh5oVq2-p2PGqU8dkAFD8Cn6jWzUpihzKpnh8pePuYaPMXY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnowV770wDmiZOsZQ-QveY_uyvS9XLwwtB7Y0R3VVat-kTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3SttZa8GiJY3KprxePn+52JRTe3BGopimsFMoW2Y0Jbg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0A8a7XhJ_eZ0+TAkZqGOaO+H_vmDisxN04dtUoL=tNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEEU9ncM3CjqCmDMG2vABozsObzJr4tHMphy8FR-SVcTYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVq2-p2PGqU8dkAFD8Cn6jWzUpihzKpnh8pePuYaPMXY3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALpcnoxxOBDhOd54qDqeEZGHytmFcZUxN+ZejTxF_4Tr0U_TOA@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, been there, done that.


On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Andrew S. Zbikowski <andyzib at gmail.com>wrote:

> Before you try a new card, have you tried installing nvidia's Linux
> drivers? (http://www.nvidia.com/Download or possibly in your
> distribution's software repository.) It could be your not taking full
> advantage of your GPU due to driver/configuration issue, and if that's the
> case a new video card wouldn't fix it.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I really can't make sense of the whole video card debate. On the one
>> hand, Linus has blasted Nvidia, but for a long time I thought they
>> were preferred among Linux users.
>
>
> Nvidia hasn't released the technical information needed to create open
> source drivers, instead releasing their own binary only drivers with
> varying degrees of stability. Even so, nvidia was still the best option for
> 3D acceleration under Linux for a long time.
>
> --
> Andrew Zbikowski
> http://andy.zibnet.us/
> Live every week like it's Shark Week.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jan  3 22:40:24 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 22:40:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Manually loading firmware
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301032239050.10594@dragon>

Hi list-people,

Ok, I have a tv capture dongle on my media center. It's a hauppauge 
xc5000-based device, and requires firmware be loaded for it to work.

The problem is it can't seem to find the device four out of five times. So 
everytime I reboot, I have to reboot five times.

I've tried to find a way to manually load firmware, but I haven't found 
anything. Anyone have any ideas?

Below is the dmesg output for an unsuccessful as well as a successful firmware 
load. Nothing changes at all between these reboots.

Unsuccessful:

[    5.978979] xc5000 0-0061: creating new instance
[    5.987502] xc5000: Successfully identified at address 0x61
[    5.987511] xc5000: Firmware has not been loaded previously
[    5.988291] au8522 0-0047: attaching existing instance
[    5.998760] xc5000 0-0061: attaching existing instance
[    6.003490] xc5000: Device not found at addr 0x61 (0xffff)


Successful:

[    5.747649] xc5000 0-0061: creating new instance
[    5.753530] xc5000: Successfully identified at address 0x61
[    5.753538] xc5000: Firmware has not been loaded previously
[    5.780467] xc5000 0-0061: attaching existing instance
[    5.786412] xc5000: Successfully identified at address 0x61
[    5.786422] xc5000: Firmware has not been loaded previously
[    9.828553] xc5000: waiting for firmware upload 
(dvb-fe-xc5000-1.6.114.fw)...
[    9.842687] xc5000: firmware read 12401 bytes.
[    9.842695] xc5000: firmware uploading...
[   16.824059] xc5000: firmware upload complete...



--

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Thu Jan  3 23:38:55 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:38:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>

4 machines died on me in the space of 2 months.  you and i are still
here, but perhaps the machines were mayan?  well none of them were
exactly new.  and then my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the
computer buzzed her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and
computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might be a
factor in mobo deaths?  and/or other power faults?  what do any of you
recommend?  a certain test gizmo?  city of saint paul electrical
inspection?

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 23:43:08 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:43:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Manually loading firmware
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301032239050.10594@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301032239050.10594@dragon>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KWgu+yB1bu1UqCcLnicqiVwZxXoeWg16N5xmoZ-s72gZw@mail.gmail.com>

> Ok, I have a tv capture dongle on my media center. It's a hauppauge
> xc5000-based device, and requires firmware be loaded for it to work.
>
> The problem is it can't seem to find the device four out of five times. So
> everytime I reboot, I have to reboot five times.
>
> I've tried to find a way to manually load firmware, but I haven't found
> anything. Anyone have any ideas?

I believe that firmware gets loaded when the associated kernel module
gets loaded.

If you can figure out which kernel module you need you should be able
to use modprobe -r to remove it (if it got inserted initially) and
modprobe to insert it.

If that works consistently then you could look into adding a file in
/etc/modprobe.d or the appropriate configuration place for your distro
which would delay inserting that module until the firmware is
available.

--
Michael More

From sfertch at gmail.com  Thu Jan  3 23:49:59 2013
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 23:49:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 11:38 PM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:

> 4 machines died on me in the space of 2 months.  you and i are still
> here, but perhaps the machines were mayan?  well none of them were
> exactly new.  and then my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the
> computer buzzed her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and
> computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might be a
> factor in mobo deaths?  and/or other power faults?  what do any of you
> recommend?  a certain test gizmo?  city of saint paul electrical
> inspection?
>
>
All of my electrical equipment (computers, DVD/Blue-Ray, TV, etc) are
plugged into either an APC SmartUPS with a battery for power conditioning.
Or, if they don't require that, an APC SurgeArrest.  They have wiring fault
indicators on them which is basically a ground test.



-- 
-Shawn
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan  4 00:03:47 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 00:03:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Manually loading firmware
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KWgu+yB1bu1UqCcLnicqiVwZxXoeWg16N5xmoZ-s72gZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301032239050.10594@dragon>
	<CAFE18KWgu+yB1bu1UqCcLnicqiVwZxXoeWg16N5xmoZ-s72gZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301040003130.10594@dragon>


On Thu, 3 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:


> I believe that firmware gets loaded when the associated kernel module
> gets loaded.

That would most likely be the xc5000 module (: I'll give that a try next 
time it happens.



--

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Jan  4 00:21:54 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 00:21:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>

plugged in a tripp lite.  says "line fault".  arrg.  poor defenseless mobos.

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 01:08:57 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 01:08:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for borrow or
	sale?
Message-ID: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>

Not quite Linux (except that I'd love to be able to use it under
Linux) but it seems like something someone on this list might have
sitting around.

Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for sale or for borrow?

My dad has 6,000+ photographic slides that I'd like to digitize so I'm
looking for something like a Nikon Coolscan 4000 (or other) with a
batch auto-loader, or a Pacific Image PowerSlide 5000, or similar.

Ideally it'd be USB or Firewire, but I'd be willing to buy a SCSI card
if an old Coolscan were a good deal.

Thanks,
Michael Moore

From bgilbertson at rrt.net  Fri Jan  4 06:26:43 2013
From: bgilbertson at rrt.net (Robert Gilbertson)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 06:26:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
Message-ID: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>

I would get an electrician to check it out.
If it is a bad wiring connection in ceiling or wall it may also be 
getting hot and be a fire hazard.
It already is a shock hazard.

In my experience, electrical inspectors only get involved if extensive 
work is done, like replacing a service entrance.

A residential electrical contractor is the place to start.


On Thursday 03/01/2013 at 11:39 pm, gregrwm  wrote:
> 4 machines died on me in the space of 2 months.  you and i are still
> here, but perhaps the machines were mayan?  well none of them were
> exactly new.  and then my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the
> computer buzzed her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and
> computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might be a
> factor in mobo deaths?  and/or other power faults?  what do any of you
> recommend?  a certain test gizmo?  city of saint paul electrical
> inspection?
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

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From tlunde at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 07:10:17 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 07:10:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for borrow
	or sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>

I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam and it takes forever. 

Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or better) sale. I realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a happy customer.

 I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a Coolscan LS-30 with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went the SC route. Wish I had done so years ago. 

Thomas



On Jan 4, 2013, at 1:08 AM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not quite Linux (except that I'd love to be able to use it under
> Linux) but it seems like something someone on this list might have
> sitting around.
> 
> Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for sale or for borrow?
> 
> My dad has 6,000+ photographic slides that I'd like to digitize so I'm
> looking for something like a Nikon Coolscan 4000 (or other) with a
> batch auto-loader, or a Pacific Image PowerSlide 5000, or similar.
> 
> Ideally it'd be USB or Firewire, but I'd be willing to buy a SCSI card
> if an old Coolscan were a good deal.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michael Moore
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 09:03:41 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:03:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301040902180.29281@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Robert Gilbertson wrote:

> I would get an electrician to check it out.
> If it is a bad wiring connection in ceiling or wall it may also be getting 
> hot and be a fire hazard.
> It already is a shock hazard.

Sometimes animals like mice or squirrels will chew on insulation and cause 
problems like these.

Mike

From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 09:26:48 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:26:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301040902180.29281@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301040902180.29281@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <E6365A96-0AF1-4B44-9FB5-514FA75359B1@secure-computing.net>

If you're getting shocks through a floor grate, it sounds like it's just a worn electrical wire, likely due to vibration, as it runs across ductwork in the basement, coupled with poor electrical grounding in your computer case.  The problem, alone, isn't in your home's electrical system, but something likely in the power supply, as well.  You just won't be shocked if your home's electrical is fixed.  Two problems, with a common symptom.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 09:03:41, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jan 2013, Robert Gilbertson wrote:
> 
>> I would get an electrician to check it out.
>> If it is a bad wiring connection in ceiling or wall it may also be getting hot and be a fire hazard.
>> It already is a shock hazard.
> 
> Sometimes animals like mice or squirrels will chew on insulation and cause problems like these.
> 
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 08:52:11 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 08:52:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net>
Message-ID: <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>

I agree... you could do a once-over first... turn off the breaker for 
that room/outlet group and remove the outlet from the wall box... Check 
to see if there's a loose connection or if the ground is intersecting 
with the neutral in any way (It's not likely the hot [black] wire that's 
bad judging by the intermittent nature)... at least then you've looked 
at all you can physically look at...

Return the outlet to the box, making sure you don't have any crosses or 
other concerns and, once battened down, you can flip your breaker back on.

Of course if you have a fear of high voltage don't do the above work... 
or if you aren't feeling completely confident. There is, of course, the 
possibility that the wire past the box (in the wall) is the issue and 
you'll never find it there.

In the interim can you plug it into another outlet that is not showing a 
ground fault on your tripplite?

On 1/4/2013 6:26 AM, Robert Gilbertson wrote:
> I would get an electrician to check it out.
> If it is a bad wiring connection in ceiling or wall it may also be 
> getting hot and be a fire hazard.
> It already is a shock hazard.
> In my experience, electrical inspectors only get involved if extensive 
> work is done, like replacing a service entrance.
> A residential electrical contractor is the place to start.
> On Thursday 03/01/2013 at 11:39 pm, gregrwm wrote:
>> 4 machines died on me in the space of 2 months. you and i are still
>> here, but perhaps the machines were mayan? well none of them were
>> exactly new. and then my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the
>> computer buzzed her. i touch what she touched, floor grate and
>> computer chassis, and buzzo. so perhaps improper grounding might be a
>> factor in mobo deaths? and/or other power faults? what do any of you
>> recommend? a certain test gizmo? city of saint paul electrical
>> inspection?

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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 09:59:15 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 09:59:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net> <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>
Message-ID: <4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>

This is patently false.  The neutral doesn't ever get 'hot.'  In fact, if you look in most electrical panels, the neutral and grounds are often tied together on a bus bar.  The ONLY way you're getting shocked is if your HOT (black or red, usually) is shorted against the grate itself or another part of the HVAC system.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 08:52:11, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> I agree... you could do a once-over first... turn off the breaker for that room/outlet group and remove the outlet from the wall box... Check to see if there's a loose connection or if the ground is intersecting with the neutral in any way (It's not likely the hot [black] wire that's bad judging by the intermittent nature)... at least then you've looked at all you can physically look at... 
> 
> Return the outlet to the box, making sure you don't have any crosses or other concerns and, once battened down, you can flip your breaker back on.
> 
> Of course if you have a fear of high voltage don't do the above work... or if you aren't feeling completely confident. There is, of course, the possibility that the wire past the box (in the wall) is the issue and you'll never find it there.
> 
> In the interim can you plug it into another outlet that is not showing a ground fault on your tripplite?


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Fri Jan  4 10:04:39 2013
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig  A (MN14))
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 16:04:39 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>

> my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the computer buzzed her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might be a factor in mobo deaths?  


Many years ago, I got a shock from the metal chassis of my dad's reel-to-reel tape deck.  He said "unplug and plug it in the other way" (this was before the days polarized plugs).  I tried this and it worked!  

The explanation was that there was a high-impedance short between the power transformer and the chassis.  Plugging it in the other way moved the short closer to neutral (grounded at the fuse-box and the utility pole).

Assuming you have a polarized plug, you might check your outlet.  You can buy a 3-led tester at the hardware store for less than $5.

If you're using a UPS, then that may be at fault.



From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 10:13:18 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:13:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net> <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>
	<4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <50E6FF9E.7040304@me.com>

That is patently OK. people make MISTAKES.

Jesus.

On 1/4/2013 9:59 AM, Eric Crist wrote:
> This is patently false.  The neutral doesn't ever get 'hot.'  In fact, if you look in most electrical panels, the neutral and grounds are often tied together on a bus bar.  The ONLY way you're getting shocked is if your HOT (black or red, usually) is shorted against the grate itself or another part of the HVAC system.
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
>
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 08:52:11, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree... you could do a once-over first... turn off the breaker for that room/outlet group and remove the outlet from the wall box... Check to see if there's a loose connection or if the ground is intersecting with the neutral in any way (It's not likely the hot [black] wire that's bad judging by the intermittent nature)... at least then you've looked at all you can physically look at...
>>
>> Return the outlet to the box, making sure you don't have any crosses or other concerns and, once battened down, you can flip your breaker back on.
>>
>> Of course if you have a fear of high voltage don't do the above work... or if you aren't feeling completely confident. There is, of course, the possibility that the wire past the box (in the wall) is the issue and you'll never find it there.
>>
>> In the interim can you plug it into another outlet that is not showing a ground fault on your tripplite?
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 10:15:32 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:15:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50E6FF9E.7040304@me.com>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net> <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>
	<4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>
	<50E6FF9E.7040304@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH9zWTkYCr=zTctupCrZCcUhAopNW_u3SCfNtdyZdO2zQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think it's unclear. I checked the patent office and the patent for
electricity doesn't say anything about temperature.

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> That is patently OK. people make MISTAKES.
>
> Jesus.
>
>
> On 1/4/2013 9:59 AM, Eric Crist wrote:
>>
>> This is patently false.  The neutral doesn't ever get 'hot.'  In fact, if
>> you look in most electrical panels, the neutral and grounds are often tied
>> together on a bus bar.  The ONLY way you're getting shocked is if your HOT
>> (black or red, usually) is shorted against the grate itself or another part
>> of the HVAC system.
>>
>> -----
>> Eric F Crist
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 08:52:11, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree... you could do a once-over first... turn off the breaker for
>>> that room/outlet group and remove the outlet from the wall box... Check to
>>> see if there's a loose connection or if the ground is intersecting with the
>>> neutral in any way (It's not likely the hot [black] wire that's bad judging
>>> by the intermittent nature)... at least then you've looked at all you can
>>> physically look at...
>>>
>>> Return the outlet to the box, making sure you don't have any crosses or
>>> other concerns and, once battened down, you can flip your breaker back on.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have a fear of high voltage don't do the above work...
>>> or if you aren't feeling completely confident. There is, of course, the
>>> possibility that the wire past the box (in the wall) is the issue and you'll
>>> never find it there.
>>>
>>> In the interim can you plug it into another outlet that is not showing a
>>> ground fault on your tripplite?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 10:19:04 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:19:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <50E700F8.5080009@me.com>

On 1/4/2013 10:04 AM, Smith, Craig A (MN14) wrote:
>> my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the computer buzzed her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might be a factor in mobo deaths?
>
> Many years ago, I got a shock from the metal chassis of my dad's reel-to-reel tape deck.  He said "unplug and plug it in the other way" (this was before the days polarized plugs).  I tried this and it worked!
>
> The explanation was that there was a high-impedance short between the power transformer and the chassis.  Plugging it in the other way moved the short closer to neutral (grounded at the fuse-box and the utility pole).
>
> Assuming you have a polarized plug, you might check your outlet.  You can buy a 3-led tester at the hardware store for less than $5.
>
> If you're using a UPS, then that may be at fault.

I assumed (shame on me) that by "tripp lite" that mentioned in his next 
email was a tester of some sort... but I would think that along your 
thought line there that testing on another outlet would work just as 
well? Extensions suck but I would recommend that everyone have at least 
one heavy duty extension cord in their homes of 25-50 feet in length. 
They are worth every penny (I have four - but two are in my car for my 
day job).

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Fri Jan  4 10:25:25 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:25:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>

I agree-  Take a volt meter if you have one and perform a voltage check
from ground to hot, ground to neutral then hot to neutral.  Neutral is the
white wire connected to the left larger vertical prong and hot should be
connected to the right smaller vertical prong. (Looking at the outlet) Also
you may want to do a voltage check between computer chassis and ground.  If
you dont have a volt meter I strongly suggest picking up a cheap one or
atleast getting a polarity checker from menards or the hardware store. You
could have a problem where the outlet is mis wired and hot and neutral are
reversed. This can present a transparent problem yet could be dangerous.
Good Luck



On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> On 1/4/2013 10:04 AM, Smith, Craig A (MN14) wrote:
>
>> my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the computer buzzed her.  i touch
>>> what she touched, floor grate and computer chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps
>>> improper grounding might be a factor in mobo deaths?
>>>
>>
>> Many years ago, I got a shock from the metal chassis of my dad's
>> reel-to-reel tape deck.  He said "unplug and plug it in the other way"
>> (this was before the days polarized plugs).  I tried this and it worked!
>>
>> The explanation was that there was a high-impedance short between the
>> power transformer and the chassis.  Plugging it in the other way moved the
>> short closer to neutral (grounded at the fuse-box and the utility pole).
>>
>> Assuming you have a polarized plug, you might check your outlet.  You can
>> buy a 3-led tester at the hardware store for less than $5.
>>
>> If you're using a UPS, then that may be at fault.
>>
>
> I assumed (shame on me) that by "tripp lite" that mentioned in his next
> email was a tester of some sort... but I would think that along your
> thought line there that testing on another outlet would work just as well?
> Extensions suck but I would recommend that everyone have at least one heavy
> duty extension cord in their homes of 25-50 feet in length. They are worth
> every penny (I have four - but two are in my car for my day job).
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 10:37:26 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:37:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E70546.3040508@me.com>

On 1/4/2013 10:25 AM, David Nelsen wrote:
> I agree-  Take a volt meter if you have one and perform a voltage 
> check from ground to hot, ground to neutral then hot to neutral. 
>  Neutral is the white wire connected to the left larger vertical prong 
> and hot should be connected to the right smaller vertical prong. 
> (Looking at the outlet) Also you may want to do a voltage check 
> between computer chassis and ground.  If you dont have a volt meter I 
> strongly suggest picking up a cheap one or atleast getting a polarity 
> checker from menards or the hardware store. You could have a problem 
> where the outlet is mis wired and hot and neutral are reversed. This 
> can present a transparent problem yet could be dangerous. Good Luck
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com 
> <mailto:ryanjcole at me.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/4/2013 10:04 AM, Smith, Craig A (MN14) wrote:
>
>             my 9yo daughter looks shocked and says the computer buzzed
>             her.  i touch what she touched, floor grate and computer
>             chassis, and buzzo.  so perhaps improper grounding might
>             be a factor in mobo deaths?
>
>
>         Many years ago, I got a shock from the metal chassis of my
>         dad's reel-to-reel tape deck.  He said "unplug and plug it in
>         the other way" (this was before the days polarized plugs).  I
>         tried this and it worked!
>
>         The explanation was that there was a high-impedance short
>         between the power transformer and the chassis.  Plugging it in
>         the other way moved the short closer to neutral (grounded at
>         the fuse-box and the utility pole).
>
>         Assuming you have a polarized plug, you might check your
>         outlet.  You can buy a 3-led tester at the hardware store for
>         less than $5.
>
>         If you're using a UPS, then that may be at fault.
>
>
>     I assumed (shame on me) that by "tripp lite" that mentioned in his
>     next email was a tester of some sort... but I would think that
>     along your thought line there that testing on another outlet would
>     work just as well? Extensions suck but I would recommend that
>     everyone have at least one heavy duty extension cord in their
>     homes of 25-50 feet in length. They are worth every penny (I have
>     four - but two are in my car for my day job).
>

This is a really easy test - it allowed me to discover that NONE of the 
"grounded" outlets in my apartment were, indeed, grounded... which is 
fine except for the fact that my UPS must have a ground... The landlord 
- upon learning of this problem - has agreed to get an outlet in each 
room properly grounded... he doesn't want to deal with my insurance 
company when I claim the explosion of battery acid from my UPS after a 
lightning strike (a little over dramatic, I admit, but I was amazed to 
find that out of 20 wall outlets 0 were actually grounded - and 15 of 
the plug pairs had a grounding pin... and a few of the outlets are still 
the cloth insulated wire...)
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 10:40:53 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:40:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for borrow
	or	sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E70615.3070102@me.com>

I'd be interested in renting one as well... I used the SuperCoolScan 
5000 in my days in the photolab a decade ago and I want to archive my 
father's 5000-slide collection...

I have no problem using bulk loaders - I know they jam but I can have it 
scan while I'm working and spend a minute or two an hour unjamming the 
auto-feeder.

On 1/4/2013 1:08 AM, Michael Moore wrote:
> Not quite Linux (except that I'd love to be able to use it under
> Linux) but it seems like something someone on this list might have
> sitting around.
>
> Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for sale or for borrow?
>
> My dad has 6,000+ photographic slides that I'd like to digitize so I'm
> looking for something like a Nikon Coolscan 4000 (or other) with a
> batch auto-loader, or a Pacific Image PowerSlide 5000, or similar.
>
> Ideally it'd be USB or Firewire, but I'd be willing to buy a SCSI card
> if an old Coolscan were a good deal.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Moore
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 10:43:53 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:43:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50E70546.3040508@me.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
Message-ID: <6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>

Older structures didn't have grounded outlets.  Many installs used metallic conduit which was retrofitted as a ground.  Most places, including old apartment complexes, replaced the old two-prong outlets with grounded outlets without grounding them.  They did this in most cases because of the complaints from tenants when they could plug in their grounded-cord appliances. This is more common than you might think.  It's technically against code, but not something that generally requires an inspection.  You're not likely to see the landlord replace the wiring with THHN or romex due to the high cost of labor and materials.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:37:26, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> This is a really easy test - it allowed me to discover that NONE of the "grounded" outlets in my apartment were, indeed, grounded... which is fine except for the fact that my UPS must have a ground... The landlord - upon learning of this problem - has agreed to get an outlet in each room properly grounded... he doesn't want to deal with my insurance company when I claim the explosion of battery acid from my UPS after a lightning strike (a little over dramatic, I admit, but I was amazed to find that out of 20 wall outlets 0 were actually grounded - and 15 of the plug pairs had a grounding pin... and a few of the outlets are still the cloth insulated wire...)
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 10:52:38 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 10:52:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <50E708D6.1050005@me.com>

True but his alternative is I run 75 feet of grounding copper into a 
grounding rod outside and drill a hole through the exterior wall - which 
he would be paying for.

I run my server in my apartment - it's going to be done in the spring if 
he can't stomach the cost of the electrician.

On 1/4/2013 10:43 AM, Eric Crist wrote:
> Older structures didn't have grounded outlets.  Many installs used metallic conduit which was retrofitted as a ground.  Most places, including old apartment complexes, replaced the old two-prong outlets with grounded outlets without grounding them.  They did this in most cases because of the complaints from tenants when they could plug in their grounded-cord appliances. This is more common than you might think.  It's technically against code, but not something that generally requires an inspection.  You're not likely to see the landlord replace the wiring with THHN or romex due to the high cost of labor and materials.
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
>
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:37:26, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a really easy test - it allowed me to discover that NONE of the "grounded" outlets in my apartment were, indeed, grounded... which is fine except for the fact that my UPS must have a ground... The landlord - upon learning of this problem - has agreed to get an outlet in each room properly grounded... he doesn't want to deal with my insurance company when I claim the explosion of battery acid from my UPS after a lightning strike (a little over dramatic, I admit, but I was amazed to find that out of 20 wall outlets 0 were actually grounded - and 15 of the plug pairs had a grounding pin... and a few of the outlets are still the cloth insulated wire...)
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 10:53:38 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:53:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
Message-ID: <3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>

I would strongly recommend one of the two of you pay for an electrician.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:52:38, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> True but his alternative is I run 75 feet of grounding copper into a grounding rod outside and drill a hole through the exterior wall - which he would be paying for.
> 
> I run my server in my apartment - it's going to be done in the spring if he can't stomach the cost of the electrician.
> 
> On 1/4/2013 10:43 AM, Eric Crist wrote:
>> Older structures didn't have grounded outlets.  Many installs used metallic conduit which was retrofitted as a ground.  Most places, including old apartment complexes, replaced the old two-prong outlets with grounded outlets without grounding them.  They did this in most cases because of the complaints from tenants when they could plug in their grounded-cord appliances. This is more common than you might think.  It's technically against code, but not something that generally requires an inspection.  You're not likely to see the landlord replace the wiring with THHN or romex due to the high cost of labor and materials.
>> 
>> -----
>> Eric F Crist
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:37:26, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a really easy test - it allowed me to discover that NONE of the "grounded" outlets in my apartment were, indeed, grounded... which is fine except for the fact that my UPS must have a ground... The landlord - upon learning of this problem - has agreed to get an outlet in each room properly grounded... he doesn't want to deal with my insurance company when I claim the explosion of battery acid from my UPS after a lightning strike (a little over dramatic, I admit, but I was amazed to find that out of 20 wall outlets 0 were actually grounded - and 15 of the plug pairs had a grounding pin... and a few of the outlets are still the cloth insulated wire...)
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Fri Jan  4 10:58:58 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:58:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
	<3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>

Check the bathroom or kitchen-  If there is a GFI in either location it
should be grounded. A bathroom water supply pipe will work in a pinch too.
Use the cold.






On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Eric Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>wrote:

> I would strongly recommend one of the two of you pay for an electrician.
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist
>
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:52:38, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>
> > True but his alternative is I run 75 feet of grounding copper into a
> grounding rod outside and drill a hole through the exterior wall - which he
> would be paying for.
> >
> > I run my server in my apartment - it's going to be done in the spring if
> he can't stomach the cost of the electrician.
> >
> > On 1/4/2013 10:43 AM, Eric Crist wrote:
> >> Older structures didn't have grounded outlets.  Many installs used
> metallic conduit which was retrofitted as a ground.  Most places, including
> old apartment complexes, replaced the old two-prong outlets with grounded
> outlets without grounding them.  They did this in most cases because of the
> complaints from tenants when they could plug in their grounded-cord
> appliances. This is more common than you might think.  It's technically
> against code, but not something that generally requires an inspection.
>  You're not likely to see the landlord replace the wiring with THHN or
> romex due to the high cost of labor and materials.
> >>
> >> -----
> >> Eric F Crist
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:37:26, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is a really easy test - it allowed me to discover that NONE of
> the "grounded" outlets in my apartment were, indeed, grounded... which is
> fine except for the fact that my UPS must have a ground... The landlord -
> upon learning of this problem - has agreed to get an outlet in each room
> properly grounded... he doesn't want to deal with my insurance company when
> I claim the explosion of battery acid from my UPS after a lightning strike
> (a little over dramatic, I admit, but I was amazed to find that out of 20
> wall outlets 0 were actually grounded - and 15 of the plug pairs had a
> grounding pin... and a few of the outlets are still the cloth insulated
> wire...)
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:02:30 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:02:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for borrow
	or sale?
In-Reply-To: <2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KUUDa9K3_vez1BTgRqjNRxvb6yTirLLje7jR++11V3bGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 7:10 AM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam and it takes forever.

I have heard that they need some tuning to run smoothly. Most of the
slides I've got are in good condition and they're all the same type,
so I'm optimistic.

> Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or better) sale. I realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a happy customer.

Done. I see I just missed one at the end of 2012.

>  I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a Coolscan LS-30 with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went the SC route. Wish I had done so years ago.

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Jan  4 11:08:28 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:08:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
	<3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
	<CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9CGt1nwrp_A3cddxHOf7vRXdpWaR3Q12EEJz+oip=z7cQ@mail.gmail.com>

in this age of plastic pipes, faucets ain't necessarily what they used to be.

this here tripp lite says "line fault" at the socket i sadly was
using, but says "line ok" and "protection present" at another socket.
i'm presuming that means all 3 wires are as they should be, at this
outlet, and the tripp lite should have passable surge protection.  am
i being overly trusting?

From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 11:11:47 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 11:11:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9CGt1nwrp_A3cddxHOf7vRXdpWaR3Q12EEJz+oip=z7cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
	<3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
	<CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9CGt1nwrp_A3cddxHOf7vRXdpWaR3Q12EEJz+oip=z7cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E70D53.7060909@me.com>

On 1/4/2013 11:08 AM, gregrwm wrote:
> in this age of plastic pipes, faucets ain't necessarily what they used to be.
>
> this here tripp lite says "line fault" at the socket i sadly was
> using, but says "line ok" and "protection present" at another socket.
> i'm presuming that means all 3 wires are as they should be, at this
> outlet, and the tripp lite should have passable surge protection.  am
> i being overly trusting?
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
No, I'd suspect that the top outlet in the box is faulty... you could 
replace it fairly easily with the instructions I gave earlier...
Buy a replacement receptacle at a hardware store.
Turn the breaker to off.
Remove the faulty outlet.
Put in the new one (putting the ground, neutral and hot in the right 
locations)
Screw down the receptacle in the box
Turn the breaker back on.
Test and you should be good.


If one outlet works properly and the other doesn't that's (IMHO) all 
that you need to do.

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:15:40 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:15:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
	<3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
	<CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KVdDAOR=1x5+mFKYObL1=Lh=Z-iyO=SgSG_Xj+P_cuPHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:58 AM, David Nelsen
<david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
> Check the bathroom or kitchen-  If there is a GFI in either location it
> should be grounded. A bathroom water supply pipe will work in a pinch too.
> Use the cold.

If you do this test to make sure the cold is actually grounded. My
grandpa had been using cold as ground and then fixed a pipe segment
with PVC. Everyone was getting shocks on the faucets until he realized
what he'd done.

--
Michael

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Jan  4 11:23:49 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:23:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] putter lab
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9AECTqqdT4CJQk8fZKD8UuMOPZw2+XJk4nzcktChKbpLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9BZsJZXnUhh1FOM9yz7ve-p0p_iQxi+y=CcV+r1qzVTXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9C11YhMMp1mckje8th6n9uegdB=tiz98e=UWX-v-z0EmQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9AECTqqdT4CJQk8fZKD8UuMOPZw2+XJk4nzcktChKbpLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9CmNsjxZJfDSfime_DSXx8q_R4LZCpxxYZd+q-TNda4yQ@mail.gmail.com>

cycles for change, aka sibley bike shop, has weekly "open shop".  i
repacked my front bearings for 75? in parts.  volunteer advice,
shoptime, and tool use all free.

i don't suppose there's any computer equivalent.  free geek might
perhaps have the most potential for cajoling into pondering the
prospect, and i still wouldn't expect it.  or is there a hidden gem
around town for me to discover?

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Fri Jan  4 11:51:27 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 11:51:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KVdDAOR=1x5+mFKYObL1=Lh=Z-iyO=SgSG_Xj+P_cuPHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<994D9F23C50CD44BA7A8AED87EC114C710E5EE36@de08ex3001.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<50E700F8.5080009@me.com>
	<CAEN4z2QaksoCdTBTz1jr31z2bpe+-LNY0PE+OkA=9z5pKpVMMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70546.3040508@me.com>
	<6C8BCF0F-0960-4A5D-8693-C56C2DEDDA97@secure-computing.net>
	<50E708D6.1050005@me.com>
	<3C81696D-9313-4F03-B3EC-5CCB02D7664A@secure-computing.net>
	<CAEN4z2Sjs92VtJhwa4XbEPpL1pHpm+eYv53bYZ8TBraybLYAcg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KVdDAOR=1x5+mFKYObL1=Lh=Z-iyO=SgSG_Xj+P_cuPHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2T8wMxycGywXeGOp5gEVgcgaknHHD8ekZ6OQn3YQYwGjw@mail.gmail.com>

If you bond to a metal pipe, ground will conduct through the water
regardless if a segment is plastic. In a pinch only- not to code. If the
UPS doesn't error on another outlet then it is probably ok but a quick
voltage check on the outlet wouldn't hurt.






On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 10:58 AM, David Nelsen
> <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
> > Check the bathroom or kitchen-  If there is a GFI in either location it
> > should be grounded. A bathroom water supply pipe will work in a pinch
> too.
> > Use the cold.
>
> If you do this test to make sure the cold is actually grounded. My
> grandpa had been using cold as ground and then fixed a pipe segment
> with PVC. Everyone was getting shocks on the faucets until he realized
> what he'd done.
>
> --
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 12:13:16 2013
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:13:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Most likely you have a bad ground since you obviously have power.? Grounds are important on PC equipment in that they help remove stray static electricity.? Check the rest of your house and see if you have the same or if it's just that plug.

If it's the whole house you have a big safety problem.? House wiring (at least for recent codes) need 3 ground points.? The power companies ground, a copper stake in the ground, and a water pipe.? Loss of any of these is a issue, especially since thieves have been stealing the ground wires off the power poles for the copper. 


?
--- 
Wayne Johnson,????????????             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003????????????             | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis



>________________________________
> From: gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net>
>To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
>Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:21 AM
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> 
>plugged in a tripp lite.? says "line fault".? arrg.? poor defenseless mobos.
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 12:15:05 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:15:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>

Power companies, in my experience, don't provide a ground from the utility. 
-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:13:16, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Most likely you have a bad ground since you obviously have power.  Grounds are important on PC equipment in that they help remove stray static electricity.  Check the rest of your house and see if you have the same or if it's just that plug.
> 
> If it's the whole house you have a big safety problem.  House wiring (at least for recent codes) need 3 ground points.  The power companies ground, a copper stake in the ground, and a water pipe.  Loss of any of these is a issue, especially since thieves have been stealing the ground wires off the power poles for the copper. 
> 
>  
> --- 
> Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
> 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
> (612) 522-7003             | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
> 
> From: gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net>
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> 
> plugged in a tripp lite.  says "line fault".  arrg.  poor defenseless mobos.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  4 12:30:24 2013
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <1357324224.35546.YahooMailNeo@web121502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Not true.? That's the third (bare) wire coming into the house.? It's both ground and neutral.? It is then tied to both the ground and neutral busses in the box.? Usually there is one power pole somewhere on the block that has a wire from this common to a copper grounding rod.? At least that's what I found when I replaced my fusebox (and with the aid of a licensed electrician).? 


When we had the tornado come through north Minneapolis we had lots of issues with houses that lost their wired grounds and the journyman electricians were getting injured because the power pole grounds were all torn out.? 
?
--- 
Wayne Johnson,????????????             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003????????????             | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis



>________________________________
> From: Eric Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>
>To: Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com>; TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
>Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> 
>Power companies, in my experience, don't provide a ground from the utility. 
>-----
>Eric F Crist
>
>
>
>On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:13:16, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Most likely you have a bad ground since you obviously have power.? Grounds are important on PC equipment in that they help remove stray static electricity.? Check the rest of your house and see if you have the same or if it's just that plug.
>> 
>> If it's the whole house you have a big safety problem.? House wiring (at least for recent codes) need 3 ground points.? The power companies ground, a copper stake in the ground, and a water pipe.? Loss of any of these is a issue, especially since thieves have been stealing the ground wires off the power poles for the copper. 
>> 
>>? 
>> --- 
>> Wayne Johnson,? ? ? ? ? ?  | There are two kinds of people: Those 
>> 3943 Penn Ave. N.? ? ? ? ? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
>> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
>> (612) 522-7003? ? ? ? ? ?  | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>> 
>> From: gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net>
>> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
>> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
>> 
>> plugged in a tripp lite.? says "line fault".? arrg.? poor defenseless mobos.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 12:32:30 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:32:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <1357324224.35546.YahooMailNeo@web121502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>
	<1357324224.35546.YahooMailNeo@web121502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7706703B-8176-4D4D-8ACB-8D46DA2D63AE@secure-computing.net>

Right, it's a neutral, and not considered service-side to be a ground.  Neutral is required for the electricity to flow.  The ground at the poles isn't for service customers - it's for the power company's own systems and infrastructure.  Neutral and ground are bound on two busses inside the electrical panel - but server two distinct purposes.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:30:24, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Not true.  That's the third (bare) wire coming into the house.  It's both ground and neutral.  It is then tied to both the ground and neutral busses in the box.  Usually there is one power pole somewhere on the block that has a wire from this common to a copper grounding rod.  At least that's what I found when I replaced my fusebox (and with the aid of a licensed electrician).  
> 
> When we had the tornado come through north Minneapolis we had lots of issues with houses that lost their wired grounds and the journyman electricians were getting injured because the power pole grounds were all torn out.  
>  
> --- 
> Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
> 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
> (612) 522-7003             | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
> 
> From: Eric Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>
> To: Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com>; TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> 
> Power companies, in my experience, don't provide a ground from the utility. 
> -----
> Eric F Crist
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:13:16, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Most likely you have a bad ground since you obviously have power.  Grounds are important on PC equipment in that they help remove stray static electricity.  Check the rest of your house and see if you have the same or if it's just that plug.
> > 
> > If it's the whole house you have a big safety problem.  House wiring (at least for recent codes) need 3 ground points.  The power companies ground, a copper stake in the ground, and a water pipe.  Loss of any of these is a issue, especially since thieves have been stealing the ground wires off the power poles for the copper. 
> > 
> >  
> > --- 
> > Wayne Johnson,            | There are two kinds of people: Those 
> > 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
> > Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
> > (612) 522-7003            | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
> > 
> > From: gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net>
> > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> > 
> > plugged in a tripp lite.  says "line fault".  arrg.  poor defenseless mobos.
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Jan  4 12:55:08 2013
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:55:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <7706703B-8176-4D4D-8ACB-8D46DA2D63AE@secure-computing.net>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>
	<1357324224.35546.YahooMailNeo@web121502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7706703B-8176-4D4D-8ACB-8D46DA2D63AE@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <1357325709730-019-01934703.jus.krytosvirus.com@[10.1.0.160]>

I have very recent experience on this having just recently built a new
house. When getting the physical phone lines run from the pedestal in
the street to the house I had a curve ball thrown at me as the phone
line HAS to be connected to the house where the power comes in. Where
the power comes in there HAS to be a dedicated ground with a provided
grounding plate for phone and others to ground to. This is per code
according to both the CenturyLink tech and my electrician. So whether
the "power company" has to provide the ground directly or "the
electrician responsible for the house wiring" has to provide the
ground... I don't know, I just know it IS required to be present for
code.

In my case I had ran all of the low voltage everywhere in the house and
having noted that the CenturyLink pedestal is on the north west corner
of my property and the north west corner of my house is where I have all
of my cables terminated at I thought this was going to be perfect, they
can run the phone line up about 20 feet to my house and be done.  The
curve ball is that the power is on the opposite side of the house
(breaker box in the attached garage) so the phone line had to be brought
in over there to attach to the power ground. So I had to obviously run a
new cable through the garage back over to where my wiring all runs to
for DSL. Too bad I didn't know about this myself until after the drywall
was all installed. It is so much easier and cleaner to run the cabling
inside the walls. Oh well, at least the room where it all runs to is
adjacent to the garage so I only had to go through one internal wall.


On Fri, 2013-01-04 at 12:32 -0600, Eric Crist wrote:

> Right, it's a neutral, and not considered service-side to be a ground.  Neutral is required for the electricity to flow.  The ground at the poles isn't for service customers - it's for the power company's own systems and infrastructure.  Neutral and ground are bound on two busses inside the electrical panel - but server two distinct purposes.
> 
> -----
> Eric F Crist
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:30:24, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Not true.  That's the third (bare) wire coming into the house.  It's both ground and neutral.  It is then tied to both the ground and neutral busses in the box.  Usually there is one power pole somewhere on the block that has a wire from this common to a copper grounding rod.  At least that's what I found when I replaced my fusebox (and with the aid of a licensed electrician).  
> > 
> > When we had the tornado come through north Minneapolis we had lots of issues with houses that lost their wired grounds and the journyman electricians were getting injured because the power pole grounds were all torn out.  
> >  
> > --- 
> > Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
> > 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
> > Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
> > (612) 522-7003             | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
> > 
> > From: Eric Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>
> > To: Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com>; TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> > 
> > Power companies, in my experience, don't provide a ground from the utility. 
> > -----
> > Eric F Crist
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:13:16, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Most likely you have a bad ground since you obviously have power.  Grounds are important on PC equipment in that they help remove stray static electricity.  Check the rest of your house and see if you have the same or if it's just that plug.
> > > 
> > > If it's the whole house you have a big safety problem.  House wiring (at least for recent codes) need 3 ground points.  The power companies ground, a copper stake in the ground, and a water pipe.  Loss of any of these is a issue, especially since thieves have been stealing the ground wires off the power poles for the copper. 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > --- 
> > > Wayne Johnson,            | There are two kinds of people: Those 
> > > 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
> > > Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
> > > (612) 522-7003            | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
> > > 
> > > From: gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net>
> > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
> > > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:21 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
> > > 
> > > plugged in a tripp lite.  says "line fault".  arrg.  poor defenseless mobos.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Jan  4 13:03:02 2013
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric Crist)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:03:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <1357325709730-019-01934703.jus.krytosvirus.com@[10.1.0.160]>
References: <CAD+dB9ApjdAH7iBGCgd18OXfu6VusLRb3FuP=czm7O6n1CqU8g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7yve60SgcUmYqtpdSkATALc6rh3JEHuaA1fz+EmP8TbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9D_m5c76r78AR4MCEHpOOi0sBJOhCcDn2TvuCL2ktBmTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1357323196.65621.YahooMailNeo@web121504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7ED5E1C2-399B-4BEB-B6D0-5BE20864D826@secure-computing.net>
	<1357324224.35546.YahooMailNeo@web121502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<7706703B-8176-4D4D-8ACB-8D46DA2D63AE@secure-computing.net>
	<1357325709730-019-01934703.jus.krytosvirus.com@[10.1.0.160]>
Message-ID: <DF52BEB0-2231-4CBA-9EE0-4A8112CA9601@secure-computing.net>

This is provided by the electrician.  The electrical company's liability ends at the meter.  Often, they will not provide service until there is a proper ground for the premise.  This ground rod is the electrical system ground - my pedantic point here was the ground at the pole isn't designed to ground your home/business, but is for the power company.

As far as new homes, there is usually a grounding bar provided at/near the electrical meter, as the system electrical ground needs to be within 20 feet wire length from the point of entry of electrical service.  Other electrical systems are required to use this ground (though they don't physically need to be there, they need to run a ground back to this grounding bar.  This is considered a common electrical bond.  It's all designed to make everything safer.  For the purposes of code, every different system, your home network, your telephones, your CATV, etc, is considered a separate "system" and, according to NEC, should be bonded to the common electrical bond. Water pipes, etc, are no longer accepted according to code.

-----
Eric F Crist



On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:55:08, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> I have very recent experience on this having just recently built a new house. When getting the physical phone lines run from the pedestal in the street to the house I had a curve ball thrown at me as the phone line HAS to be connected to the house where the power comes in. Where the power comes in there HAS to be a dedicated ground with a provided grounding plate for phone and others to ground to. This is per code according to both the CenturyLink tech and my electrician. So whether the "power company" has to provide the ground directly or "the electrician responsible for the house wiring" has to provide the ground... I don't know, I just know it IS required to be present for code.


From n0nas at amsat.org  Fri Jan  4 13:26:04 2013
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Douglas H Reed)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:26:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOS6ODR-C-tGb8d7LbykKB7kHk=JjUsdhDhLEFWP4D=Y2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Most likely is that electrical outlet has lost its ground connection.
This is assuming it is a 3-wire grounded outlet to begin with. If it
is only a 2-wire plug, then the problem you are having with shocks
would be the expected result. The cause of the problem would not be a
fault in the computer, but a problem in the house wiring.

You said you plugged in a Triplite power strip and the "line fault"
light came on when plugged into one outlet but was OK in another
outlet. That indicates there is a bad outlet and it needs to be
replaced. This is easily something that you can do yourself if you are
CAREFUL and not afraid of a screwdriver. I recommend you plug a radio
or lamp into the outlet to be absolutely certain the power is off
after you throw the breaker. Don't rely on the labeling in the box.

If you are unsure what to do, either pay an electrician, or search
online, or buy a "how-to" book at the hardware store, or visit the
public library. If you can pump your own gas you should be able to do
this.

The suggestion to use a water pipe for ground is a possibility, but
only if there is no ground already on the outlet string. Above all, DO
NOT attempt to rely on the water in the pipe to provide an electrical
ground path around your water meter or any plastic pipe in the system.
Electrical code requires an actual copper jumper wire across the water
meter or across any plastic pipe if the water lines are used for
electrical grounds.

Yes, water can be a conductor of electricity, but it isn't a very good
conductor unless you have a high salt concentration in the water,
which you don't. In case you are still unsure, let me mention that
water-cooled transmitting tubes were fairly common 20 years ago. They
used distilled water to cool high-power transmitting tubes with
thousands of volts in the circuit. You absolutely don't want to rely
on water for grounding your house.

OK, a little more background, more than you wanted to know....

It has been standard practice for many years that computers are
required to have RF Interference suppression on all wires leaving the
case, including the power wires. This includes capacitors between all
three wires of the cord and the chassis of the computer. One result of
this is that if the chassis ground wire in the power cord is not
hooked to ground at the outlet, the capacitors inside the computer act
as a voltage divider and some amount of the 120VAC line voltage will
appear on the metal chassis of the computer.

Similar bypass capacitors exist in almost all radio and TV equipment
going back to well before WW2. (I used to own a WW2 radio that gave me
a tingle every time I touched it while barefoot on concrete....) This
is not a short or any sort of fault in the equipment, it is just an
unintended consequence of the design and NOT having a chassis ground
wire on the equipment. I'm also not saying that an electrical fault or
short in the computer is impossible, just unlikely, and if the
equipment was properly grounded, an actual fault in the equipment
would blow the circuit breaker through the chassis ground wire.

Back in the early 60's, the electrical code was changed so that all
new construction was required to use grounded outlets in the main
living area of the house. Some time later this was extended to all
wiring in the house, including basements. Eventually it became code
that structures had to be upgraded to 3-wire outlets before they could
be sold with a mortgage. Because of this it is very uncommon to still
find old 2-wire outlets in a home. But that doesn't mean the outlet
upgrade was done correctly.

To upgrade house wiring, the minimum was to replace the 2-wire outlet
with a 3-wire outlet and screw it into a metal outlet box that has
metal conduit between the boxes. This is usually sufficient, but if
any joints get rusty or loose, the grounding may fail. The best option
is to have an actual copper ground wire from the outlet to the metal
box and from box to box, all the way back to the electrical panel.
This is what I prefer, but I'm a worrier.....

In this particular instance, it sounds like you have one bad
electrical outlet or the ground connection at the outlet has failed. I
recommend you check the other outlets in the room and possibly all the
outlets in the house or apartment, since if one failed, you don't know
what else might have failed. I'd be most worried if you see the fault
light flicker as you plug in a second cord to the outlet, or
especially if the fault changes when you plug into a different
outlet....

This ground fault is the most likely reason the computers died,
especially if you have them connected to any other piece of equipment
or to a network. If the computer can't get its ground through the
3-wire power cord as it should, it will try to make a ground through
some other piece of equipment. And in most cases those other
connections go through the motherboard which isn't designed to be a
ground for the equipment. What happens when you put 60 volts into a PC
card? POOF goes the mobo...

There have been a lot of good replies to the original email and a few
less good replies. I'm reasonably certain that anyone who can build
their own computers and keep Linux running can locate and replace a
bad outlet. There is lots of How-To help online, at YouTube, and in
the public library. If you want you can even buy a book at Menards in
the electrical department when you buy the replacement outlets.....

Good luck!

Doug Reed.

From n0nas at amsat.org  Fri Jan  4 13:49:53 2013
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Douglas H Reed)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 13:49:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1390.1357324362.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1390.1357324362.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOSme5z5qoQhVtwDCr2fTYv4vuJ+OVqmSues_weZbcE3xg@mail.gmail.com>

Eric is correct.

The neutral wire from the pole and the ground wire in the house serve
two distinctly different purposes. The fact that they tie together at
the service entrance panel tends to confuse things, but they are for
different purposes. The neutral wire (wide blade on the plug) is
one-half of the circuit to carry the operating current for the device
plugged into the outlet. The ground wire is for SAFETY. It is intended
to provide a second layer of protection in case there is a problem
with the equipment somewhere in the house.

Once upon a time I read a nice article explaining exactly why they
used two wires connected to the same point at one end. I couldn't find
it for this discussion, but you can find a lot of info on the web if
you want to continue the search. Otherwise here is one reference:
<http://www.homeinspector.org/resources/journals/Intro-Electrical-Grounding.pdf>

Doug Reed.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  4 18:57:50 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 18:57:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Lunde
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 7:10 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
> scanner for borrowor sale?
>
> I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam
> and it takes forever.
>
> Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or better)
> sale. I realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a
> happy customer.
>
>  I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a
> Coolscan LS-30 with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went
> the SC route. Wish I had done so years ago.
>
> Thomas

Have had need for lots of extra time per slide using my scanner due to dust,
etc.  Just not practical, so SC is very attractive.

I don't use Twitter, etc.  Is there a more open way to learn of sales?
By 1/3 off do you mean 1/3 or more off the $0.22 batch price shown on their
site?  Ie, less than $0.15 each in batches?


I have mostly slides in standard plastic or cardboard mounts.  These are
usually not flat.
Does SC assure media is flat (or compensate - which?) before scanning so all
is sharp?

Does SC <http://www.scancafe.com/> automatically remove dust and scratches
at no extra charge, or are those digitized unless extra work is ordered?

I did not find clear answers for all these issues on their site: where are
these covered?


Chuck



From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Jan  4 19:37:07 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:37:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RLOS6ODR-C-tGb8d7LbykKB7kHk=JjUsdhDhLEFWP4D=Y2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS6ODR-C-tGb8d7LbykKB7kHk=JjUsdhDhLEFWP4D=Y2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9Au6mKPsdxRn1LZ+YnYfaqSqyWZzeno4A+uzV01Bp+xAQ@mail.gmail.com>

> It has been standard practice for many years that computers are
> required to have RF Interference suppression on all wires leaving the
> case, including the power wires. This includes capacitors between all
> three wires of the cord and the chassis of the computer. One result of
> this is that if the chassis ground wire in the power cord is not
> hooked to ground at the outlet, the capacitors inside the computer act
> as a voltage divider and some amount of the 120VAC line voltage will
> appear on the metal chassis of the computer.
>
> Similar bypass capacitors exist in almost all radio and TV equipment
> going back to well before WW2. (I used to own a WW2 radio that gave me
> a tingle every time I touched it while barefoot on concrete....) This
> is not a short or any sort of fault in the equipment, it is just an
> unintended consequence of the design and NOT having a chassis ground
> wire on the equipment. I'm also not saying that an electrical fault or
> short in the computer is impossible, just unlikely,

aha, this explains the current and many prior personal experiences.  thank you.

> and if the
> equipment was properly grounded, an actual fault in the equipment
> would blow the circuit breaker through the chassis ground wire.
>
> Back in the early 60's, the electrical code was changed so that all
> new construction was required to use grounded outlets in the main
> living area of the house. Some time later this was extended to all
> wiring in the house, including basements. Eventually it became code
> that structures had to be upgraded to 3-wire outlets before they could
> be sold with a mortgage. Because of this it is very uncommon to still
> find old 2-wire outlets in a home. But that doesn't mean the outlet
> upgrade was done correctly.
>
> To upgrade house wiring, the minimum was to replace the 2-wire outlet
> with a 3-wire outlet and screw it into a metal outlet box that has
> metal conduit between the boxes. This is usually sufficient, but if
> any joints get rusty or loose, the grounding may fail.
>...
> I'd be most worried if you see the fault
> light flicker as you plug in a second cord to the outlet,

good point to watch for!

> This ground fault is the most likely reason the computers died,

guess what, on good power my saddest seeming loss is now so far
happily humming.  insha'allah perhaps it's former flaky failures are
now well explained and history.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  4 19:39:05 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:39:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>
References: <50e6ca83.6e66.ae435b70.3e967578@rrt.net> <50E6EC9B.5010404@me.com>
	<4252AEA8-B5F4-4F4E-BD7C-04FE1D68CFBC@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <EF77DCCCA5F34E39BE79E4053031A67F@d830a>

NO!  DIY electricians often do some really dumb wiring for power and phones,
etc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Eric Crist
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:59 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] power
>
> This is patently false.  The neutral doesn't ever get 'hot.'
> In fact, if you look in most electrical panels, the neutral
> and grounds are often tied together on a bus bar.  The ONLY
> way you're getting shocked is if your HOT (black or red,
> usually) is shorted against the grate itself or another part
> of the HVAC system.
>
> -----
> Eric F Crist



From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 19:39:23 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 19:39:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] power
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Au6mKPsdxRn1LZ+YnYfaqSqyWZzeno4A+uzV01Bp+xAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS6ODR-C-tGb8d7LbykKB7kHk=JjUsdhDhLEFWP4D=Y2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+dB9Au6mKPsdxRn1LZ+YnYfaqSqyWZzeno4A+uzV01Bp+xAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02C5CB1F-87C6-412A-A42C-EB07191B84CA@me.com>

Huh?

>> guess what, on good power my saddest seeming loss is now so far
> happily humming.  insha'allah perhaps it's former flaky failures are
> now well explained and history.
> 

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  4 19:56:50 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 19:56:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor	sale?
In-Reply-To: <50E70615.3070102@me.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E70615.3070102@me.com>
Message-ID: <13CDE7FD3E6C4ACEA26820098BCE764D@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:41 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
> scanner for borrowor sale?
>
> I'd be interested in renting one as well... I used the
> SuperCoolScan 5000 in my days in the photolab a decade ago
> and I want to archive my father's 5000-slide collection...
>
> I have no problem using bulk loaders - I know they jam but I
> can have it scan while I'm working and spend a minute or two
> an hour unjamming the auto-feeder.

DIY scanning often requires 10-30 minutes extra time PER SLIDE to remove
dust and scratches unless there's a batch version of ICE to both speed up
and automate this.  My scanner doesn't have built-in ICE so it's a very
time-consuming process, and very hard for me to eliminate dust here.  Still
doesn't deal with curved and popped slides in mounts..  Not auto flatten or
compensation.



Chuck



From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 18:59:00 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 18:59:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner
 for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
	<9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
Message-ID: <13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>

Twitter isn't closed. Just "open" your web browser. 

On Jan 4, 2013, at 18:57, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Lunde
>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 7:10 AM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
>> scanner for borrowor sale?
>> 
>> I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam
>> and it takes forever.
>> 
>> Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or better)
>> sale. I realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a
>> happy customer.
>> 
>> I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a
>> Coolscan LS-30 with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went
>> the SC route. Wish I had done so years ago.
>> 
>> Thomas
> 
> Have had need for lots of extra time per slide using my scanner due to dust,
> etc.  Just not practical, so SC is very attractive.
> 
> I don't use Twitter, etc.  Is there a more open way to learn of sales?
> By 1/3 off do you mean 1/3 or more off the $0.22 batch price shown on their
> site?  Ie, less than $0.15 each in batches?
> 
> 
> I have mostly slides in standard plastic or cardboard mounts.  These are
> usually not flat.
> Does SC assure media is flat (or compensate - which?) before scanning so all
> is sharp?
> 
> Does SC <http://www.scancafe.com/> automatically remove dust and scratches
> at no extra charge, or are those digitized unless extra work is ordered?
> 
> I did not find clear answers for all these issues on their site: where are
> these covered?
> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan  4 20:05:05 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 20:05:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner
	for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com><2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com><9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
	<13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>
Message-ID: <EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>

You are very mistaken.

Closed by requiring membership and recording ID, opening possibilities of
identity theft, piracy access, spamming, etc.

I don't do promiscuous things like Twitter or Fazebook.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 6:59 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
> scanner for borrowor sale?
>
> Twitter isn't closed. Just "open" your web browser.
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 18:57, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Lunde
> >> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 7:10 AM
> >> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> >> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
> scanner for
> >> borrowor sale?
> >>
> >> I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam and it
> >> takes forever.
> >>
> >> Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or
> better) sale. I
> >> realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a happy customer.
> >>
> >> I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a
> Coolscan LS-30
> >> with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went the SC route.
> Wish I had
> >> done so years ago.
> >>
> >> Thomas
> >
> > Have had need for lots of extra time per slide using my
> scanner due to
> > dust, etc.  Just not practical, so SC is very attractive.
> >
> > I don't use Twitter, etc.  Is there a more open way to
> learn of sales?
> > By 1/3 off do you mean 1/3 or more off the $0.22 batch
> price shown on
> > their site?  Ie, less than $0.15 each in batches?
> >
> >
> > I have mostly slides in standard plastic or cardboard
> mounts.  These
> > are usually not flat.
> > Does SC assure media is flat (or compensate - which?)
> before scanning
> > so all is sharp?
> >
> > Does SC <http://www.scancafe.com/> automatically remove dust and
> > scratches at no extra charge, or are those digitized unless
> extra work is ordered?
> >
> > I did not find clear answers for all these issues on their
> site: where
> > are these covered?
> >
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jan  4 20:06:15 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 20:06:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
 scanner	for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
	<9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
	<13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>
	<EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>
Message-ID: <FDB68CF3-B5E9-40B0-96BA-B37DD8816327@me.com>

Wrong again. 

Businesses who WANT MORE CUSTOMERS don't block their profiles. 

You're close minded and, please, stop. 

On Jan 4, 2013, at 20:05, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> You are very mistaken.
> 
> Closed by requiring membership and recording ID, opening possibilities of
> identity theft, piracy access, spamming, etc.
> 
> I don't do promiscuous things like Twitter or Fazebook.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 6:59 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
>> scanner for borrowor sale?
>> 
>> Twitter isn't closed. Just "open" your web browser.
>> 
>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 18:57, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>>>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Lunde
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 7:10 AM
>>>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>>>> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
>> scanner for
>>>> borrowor sale?
>>>> 
>>>> I tried to do this very same project. The auto loaders jam and it
>>>> takes forever.
>>>> 
>>>> Follow Scancafe on twitter and wait for a 1/3 off (or
>> better) sale. I
>>>> realize that this sounds like an ad, but I'm just a happy customer.
>>>> 
>>>> I'd been playing with slide scanners on Linux (e.g. a
>> Coolscan LS-30
>>>> with Vuescan) since 1998 (!) & finally went the SC route.
>> Wish I had
>>>> done so years ago.
>>>> 
>>>> Thomas
>>> 
>>> Have had need for lots of extra time per slide using my
>> scanner due to
>>> dust, etc.  Just not practical, so SC is very attractive.
>>> 
>>> I don't use Twitter, etc.  Is there a more open way to
>> learn of sales?
>>> By 1/3 off do you mean 1/3 or more off the $0.22 batch
>> price shown on
>>> their site?  Ie, less than $0.15 each in batches?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have mostly slides in standard plastic or cardboard
>> mounts.  These
>>> are usually not flat.
>>> Does SC assure media is flat (or compensate - which?)
>> before scanning
>>> so all is sharp?
>>> 
>>> Does SC <http://www.scancafe.com/> automatically remove dust and
>>> scratches at no extra charge, or are those digitized unless
>> extra work is ordered?
>>> 
>>> I did not find clear answers for all these issues on their
>> site: where
>>> are these covered?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From cncole at earthlink.net  Sat Jan  5 01:30:17 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 01:30:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
	scanner	for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <FDB68CF3-B5E9-40B0-96BA-B37DD8816327@me.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com><2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com><9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a><13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com><EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>
	<FDB68CF3-B5E9-40B0-96BA-B37DD8816327@me.com>
Message-ID: <E3328C488B204C8BBB9230FDAD28F622@d830a>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 8:06 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide
> scanner for borrowor sale?
>
> Wrong again.
>
> Businesses who WANT MORE CUSTOMERS don't block their profiles.

Promiscuity is just that, business or not.


> You're close minded and, please, stop.

Only closed to invasive and intrusive things, not all.

Toss YOUR prejudices and incorrect presumptions.


Chuck



From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Sat Jan  5 05:11:27 2013
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 05:11:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <E3328C488B204C8BBB9230FDAD28F622@d830a>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
	<9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
	<13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>
	<EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>
	<FDB68CF3-B5E9-40B0-96BA-B37DD8816327@me.com>
	<E3328C488B204C8BBB9230FDAD28F622@d830a>
Message-ID: <CAEQLb8k2fxrgCbbckringgEk39g3NFVxp1GZ7S9JjWh4tSvmbQ@mail.gmail.com>

>> You're close minded and, please, stop.
>
> Only closed to invasive and intrusive things, not all.
>
> Toss YOUR prejudices and incorrect presumptions.

Objectively speaking, it is very difficult to get information in a
timely manner from Twitter without a Twitter account.  There is one
account on Twitter I "follow" via RSS, however they are dropping
support for this in a few months.  I have many reasons for not getting
a Twitter account; most of them personal reasons that are irrelevant
to this discussion.  However, it is difficult to call a company that
refuses to even support RSS/Atom feeds "open".

Speaking to Facebook, of which I am also not a member for personal
reasons, it bothers me when organizations call their Facebook pages
their "websites".  In most cases, I cannot access additional
information about these without being a member of Facebook.  I have a
hard time understanding how one would call this "open".

From kenlynes at usa.net  Sun Jan  6 00:30:08 2013
From: kenlynes at usa.net (Kenneth Lynes)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 00:30:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 11
Message-ID: <841RaFgdi2960S02.1357453808@web02.cms.usa.net>

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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 01:47:34 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 01:47:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
 borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAEQLb8k2fxrgCbbckringgEk39g3NFVxp1GZ7S9JjWh4tSvmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUMeG=8cLdBQBKK66C+iLHQx7S1eAtKi+pD8LZvYBqbow@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DFBB6F4-E4CB-48F6-9DF5-20A97B29ED61@gmail.com>
	<9A38FD4AD94E4D8FB06D3B60CD95EA4C@d830a>
	<13DE1FD1-1520-4B3C-8586-BAE162EB3AE5@me.com>
	<EF91FDCADEB44EF6AD4460E382498E5D@d830a>
	<FDB68CF3-B5E9-40B0-96BA-B37DD8816327@me.com>
	<E3328C488B204C8BBB9230FDAD28F622@d830a>
	<CAEQLb8k2fxrgCbbckringgEk39g3NFVxp1GZ7S9JjWh4tSvmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301060141410.29281@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 5 Jan 2013, Max Shinn wrote:

>>> You're close minded and, please, stop.
>>
>> Only closed to invasive and intrusive things, not all.
>>
>> Toss YOUR prejudices and incorrect presumptions.
>
> Objectively speaking, it is very difficult to get information in a 
> timely manner from Twitter without a Twitter account.  There is one 
> account on Twitter I "follow" via RSS, however they are dropping support 
> for this in a few months.  I have many reasons for not getting a Twitter 
> account; most of them personal reasons that are irrelevant to this 
> discussion.  However, it is difficult to call a company that refuses to 
> even support RSS/Atom feeds "open".
>
> Speaking to Facebook, of which I am also not a member for personal 
> reasons, it bothers me when organizations call their Facebook pages 
> their "websites".  In most cases, I cannot access additional information 
> about these without being a member of Facebook.  I have a hard time 
> understanding how one would call this "open".


Good points, Max.  It is a never-ending struggle with these information 
gathering companies.

The other day I saw someone post "If you are concerned about privacy on 
Facebook, don't post anything private on Facebook," or something like 
that.  But I don't think they understand how data mining works and how 
much about us can be divined from seemingly irrelevant things.  I'm on 
Facebook anyway.

Mike

From n0nas at amsat.org  Sun Jan  6 10:02:07 2013
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Douglas H Reed)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:02:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>

I have no interest in using Twitter or Facebook for privacy reasons.

Most people don't understand just how pervasive the data mining is.
Every time you go to a web page that includes the little "like me"
buttons or has a Google search link, or other reference to some other
service, it usually means that your browser had to go to that remote
web site to retrieve some data, maybe just the logo. But the remote
web site can capture your IP address, possibly your MAC address, and
anything else it can request from the browser, and put it together
with all the other info they can capture, retrieve or deduce, to build
a profile of your browsing habits. Maybe they left a cookie on your
system from the last time you were there? Depending what sites you
frequent, they may be able to link it to you as an individual instead
of just a general age bracket and gender.

It is pretty much impossible to avoid completely, but I don't have to
ask for it by joining Twitter or Facebook. And then of course there
are the people who do everything but post their social security number
on the web site....

Doug.

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan  6 10:24:15 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:24:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner
 for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E9A52F.80209@me.com>



:)
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From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Sun Jan  6 10:37:24 2013
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 10:37:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <50E9A52F.80209@me.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E9A52F.80209@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAEQLb8mBxokRs8RUtDbAtRWNctOXgfHkHQ3ButydRDchXpzGOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ryan,

People aren't "mad at you" for using Facebook.  You were previously
very hostile towards those who don't use Facebook, and we were
defending ourselves.  E.g.

> Twitter isn't closed. Just "open" your web browser.

> You're close minded and, please, stop.

We are simply providing justifications to you as to why we choose not
to use Facebook and Twitter.  We don't want to stop you from using
them.  Just because you use Facebook, it does not make you smarter or
more noble.  Similarly, just because I and some people on this list do
not use Facebook, it does not make us smarter or more noble either.

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan  6 10:51:58 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:51:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner
 for	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAEQLb8mBxokRs8RUtDbAtRWNctOXgfHkHQ3ButydRDchXpzGOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<50E9A52F.80209@me.com>
	<CAEQLb8mBxokRs8RUtDbAtRWNctOXgfHkHQ3ButydRDchXpzGOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27BE2D7D-BE2B-4EF1-9B84-4D7CFD0DFDBA@me.com>

Oh sweet Jesus. I didn't make the graphic. 

I'm out. I don't care. This is WAY off topic now. Goodbye. 

--
Ryan Coleman
ryanjcole at me.com
m. 651.373.5015
o. 612.568.2749

On Jan 6, 2013, at 10:37, Max Shinn <max at bernsteinforpresident.com> wrote:

> Ryan,
> 
> People aren't "mad at you" for using Facebook.  You were previously
> very hostile towards those who don't use Facebook, and we were
> defending ourselves.  E.g.
> 
>> Twitter isn't closed. Just "open" your web browser.
> 
>> You're close minded and, please, stop.
> 
> We are simply providing justifications to you as to why we choose not
> to use Facebook and Twitter.  We don't want to stop you from using
> them.  Just because you use Facebook, it does not make you smarter or
> more noble.  Similarly, just because I and some people on this list do
> not use Facebook, it does not make us smarter or more noble either.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Sun Jan  6 10:50:09 2013
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 10:50:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Offtopic: Tracking - was: Does anyone have a batch
	slide scanner
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50E9AB41-00052B4C@penguinpackets.com>

As to mining (at least in the browser), here is a cute add-on for Firefox
that lets you map the data sharing (along with a Ted talk if you are
intrested in the subject):  

http://www.ted.com/talks/gary_kovacs_tracking_the_trackers.html  

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/collusion/  

Kelly
KB0GBJ?
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From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 12:04:39 2013
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:04:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE_iCBeSa3dhB+zh0NKipXh6SY0yytgEwfjUsdKU=QJCJQ@mail.gmail.com>

I only visit facebook's site in "private" mode on desktop computers so that
they can't follow me around the web, though certainly other services are
following me around as well...

Oh well.

-Rob


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Douglas H Reed <n0nas at amsat.org> wrote:

> I have no interest in using Twitter or Facebook for privacy reasons.
>
> Most people don't understand just how pervasive the data mining is.
> Every time you go to a web page that includes the little "like me"
> buttons or has a Google search link, or other reference to some other
> service, it usually means that your browser had to go to that remote
> web site to retrieve some data, maybe just the logo. But the remote
> web site can capture your IP address, possibly your MAC address, and
> anything else it can request from the browser, and put it together
> with all the other info they can capture, retrieve or deduce, to build
> a profile of your browsing habits. Maybe they left a cookie on your
> system from the last time you were there? Depending what sites you
> frequent, they may be able to link it to you as an individual instead
> of just a general age bracket and gender.
>
> It is pretty much impossible to avoid completely, but I don't have to
> ask for it by joining Twitter or Facebook. And then of course there
> are the people who do everything but post their social security number
> on the web site....
>
> Doug.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From florin at iucha.net  Sun Jan  6 13:44:46 2013
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 13:44:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
 borrowor sale?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130106194446.GC1459@signbit.net>

On Sun, Jan 06, 2013 at 10:02:07AM -0600, Douglas H Reed wrote:
> Most people don't understand just how pervasive the data mining is.
> Every time you go to a web page that includes the little "like me"
> buttons or has a Google search link, or other reference to some other
> service, it usually means that your browser had to go to that remote
> web site to retrieve some data, maybe just the logo. But the remote
> web site can capture your IP address, possibly your MAC address, and
> anything else it can request from the browser, and put it together
> with all the other info they can capture, retrieve or deduce, to build
> a profile of your browsing habits. Maybe they left a cookie on your
> system from the last time you were there? Depending what sites you
> frequent, they may be able to link it to you as an individual instead
> of just a general age bracket and gender.

   https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/requestpolicy/

It's like a packet filter for outgoing requests.  You get to control
what web pages can request resources from what other web servers.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Beware of software written by optimists!
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From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Sun Jan  6 21:47:50 2013
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:47:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a batch slide scanner for
	borrowor sale?
References: <CAL+RLOS28QLFyFS6R1iQ_ACS4A_K5ZN0DTWz7WRG87fdWRjVUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130106194446.GC1459@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <50EA4566-00052B92@penguinpackets.com>

?  
>  Sun Jan 06 2013 01:44:46 PM CST from "Florin Iucha"
><florin at iucha.net>https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/requestpolicy
>/
>
>  
>It's like a packet filter for outgoing requests. You get to control
>what web pages can request resources from what other web servers.
>
>Cheers,
>florin
>
>  

  Nice one Florin. ?I have added that to my list of keepers.

  Kelly
KB0GBJ?
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Thu Jan 10 09:52:56 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:52:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] gnucash/twm/precise
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9BOAgk-8X0VH=5CBxBaSDyXXmajHYRLbpv9Q3OQYd9aZg@mail.gmail.com>

natty is eol.  i miss her.

precise gnucash needs dbus.  whatever.  so what do i need to launch along
with twm to satisfy gnucash's thirst for dbus?
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From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sat Jan 12 08:26:10 2013
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:26:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] gnucash/twm/precise
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9BOAgk-8X0VH=5CBxBaSDyXXmajHYRLbpv9Q3OQYd9aZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9BOAgk-8X0VH=5CBxBaSDyXXmajHYRLbpv9Q3OQYd9aZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALpcnoxp-mv=hjiB67rM1G9b9y+UxBLkh-7a1HeJPRVnWGzaaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:52 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:

> natty is eol.  i miss her.
>
> precise gnucash needs dbus.  whatever.  so what do i need to launch along
> with twm to satisfy gnucash's thirst for dbus?
>

Found this to solve my problem with running gnucash from a cron job. It
might help your twm woes.

env $(dbus-launch) sh -c 'trap "kill $DBUS_SESSION_BUS_PID" EXIT;
/usr/bin/gnucash --add-price-quotes
${HOME}/Documents/banking/gnucash/accounts.xac'


-- 
http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Jan 12 12:23:44 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:23:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I was just looking at the specs for this Google Samsung Chromebook which 
is selling for $249:

http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/education/devices/samsung-chromebook.html#specs

11.6?? (1366x768) display
0.7 inches thin ? 2.42 lbs / 1.1 kg
Over 6.5 hours of battery [1]
Samsung Exynos 5 Dual Processor
100 GB Google Drive Cloud Storage[2] with 16GB Solid State Drive

Built-in dual band Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g/n
VGA Camera
1x USB 3.0, 1x USB 2.0
HDMI Port
Bluetooth 3.0? Compatible

[1] Battery life may vary based on usage or other conditions.
[2] 100 GB of free storage is valid for 2 years, starting on the date you redeem the Drive offer.


It says nothing about memory, but I think it might be 1 GB.  The two 
others, which cost a lot more, have 2 GB and 4 GB.

Have any of you worked with Chrome?  I'm wondering what it is like as a 
Linux distro - it is Linux inside, right?  If you've used it, what I am 
most interested in is whether it is difficult to get gcc working, to 
compile various little things, and which downloadable binaries might work.

According to Wikipedia, Chrome OS uses the Gentoo Portage package system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portage_(software)

I've heard some good things about Gentoo's package system.  Does this mean 
that anything available for Gentoo is available to Chrome OS?

The one reason why a Chromebook with Chrome OS might work for me is that I 
do most work by connecting via VNCviewer to the Xvnc desktop on my office 
computer at the U, but within an SSH tunnel.  So the main considerations 
are that (1) vncviewer and ssh will run on Chrome OS and (2) it has good 
WiFi reception.  It seems that they are claiming to have great WiFi 
reception, so that would be nice.

If I can either get VNCviewer package installation or download a VNC 
Linux-32 binary, that would solve the other problem.  I don't know if that 
is possible.  I'm assuming it can do ssh client out of the box, but let me 
know if you can confirm or refute that.

Thanks in advance!

Mike

From ubusum at ymail.com  Sat Jan 12 13:38:25 2013
From: ubusum at ymail.com (Ubu Sumner)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:38:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1358019505.35202.YahooMailNeo@web125303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
 
I endorsed this little internet reader for an elderly family member at Best Buy back in December and I've been watching from a distance to limit my involvement. They like it a lot, although the touch pad seems to flip off into new tabs for them without clear reason. They enjoy reading Project Gutenberg books on it and browsing. I thought it would be a good choice for them as it's advertized as virus-protected by Google, but it also seems to come with a Gorilla-like Google presence for tracking and seems difficult to modify. 

****I would be very interested to know if this particular Chromebook can be changed to something more open. A developer told me that early on there was a physical switch somewhere they could toggle to install whatever OS they wanted. I haven't checked into this and am not sure I want to mess with it.****

To my mind the Chromebook's main positives are its feather-weight build and instant on response when you open it. Battery life seems substantial with no fan or hdd. It seems like there's good forum support, but quite a number of user issues encountered. Things as basic as no delete key.

The Chromebook would not accept a Tomato- 54gl router even after playing around with settings, which I found a little disturbing. With factory firmware on a 54gl it accepted the connection just fine. I've done nothing to test it for distance. ****If anyone knows why the Chromebook rejected Tomato, or cares to speculate, I would be all ears.****

Bruce
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From brian at ropers-huilman.net  Sun Jan 13 09:08:30 2013
From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:08:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

I haven't seen any other answers to your query come in, so I thought
I'd take a stab.

Google's Chromebooks are _very_ specialized laptops. While the
underlying OS is Linux and while it may use a Gentoo packaging system,
the user does not have acces to any of it. The machine and the OS are
custom designed to _only_ run the Chrome web browser.

That's it.

Nothing else.

So, the concept of getting a shell and compiling other code is out.

Having said that, ... there is a built in "terminal" in the browser,
so you can ssh to other machines. Last I checked or used it, it didn't
support SSH tunnels, but they were working on it. There are also apps
that allow VNC connections. So, you might be able to do what you want
anyway.

The apps I'm talking about, by the way, are Chrome apps. So, a good
test to see if a Chromebook is right for you is to sit down at your
current Linux box, open Chrome OS, and then see if you can get your
work done. You'd need to start by looking at the apps available in the
Chrome Web Store:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore

There's a lot there. These apps run in one of two ways: as a
"weblication" that basically takes you to a web site or as an
in-browser app that's likely running via Javascript and other
HTML5/CSS wizardry.

If you can get through a week's worth of day-to-day work using nothing
but the Chrome browser and the apps you find, then go get a Chromebook
as it will be perfect for you. I'm one such candidate, but I'm a
cheap, frugal sort and just haven't ponied up the money to go get one
yet. I'd love one!

Hope this helps.

P.S. Go to a Best Buy and play with one. You should be able to get the
store person to take it out of "demo" mode so you can actually log
into your own Google account. Doing so will auto-magically load all
the "apps" you've installed in your Linux Chrome browser right onto
the machine (it's all synced via the Google cloud), so you'll be able
to test your real situation on a real Chromebook before you make a
purchase decision.

--
Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
612.234.7778 (m)

From xcorvis at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 09:51:41 2013
From: xcorvis at gmail.com (Adam Nave)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 09:51:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOshu0eJmd-_LcsDCgAaDYzR1yHsErdggqfeF6xV8b0sFxTCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Some details on the internal chrome shell:

http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/poking-around-your-chrome-os-device

That particular samsung chromebook has a reputation for running Ubuntu with
good benchmarks, though I didn't immediately find good instructions on how
to make it happen, and I don't know if the full range of drivers are
available. Also note that it uses an ARM processor, not x86.

--Adam


On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 9:08 AM, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman <
brian at ropers-huilman.net> wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I haven't seen any other answers to your query come in, so I thought
> I'd take a stab.
>
> Google's Chromebooks are _very_ specialized laptops. While the
> underlying OS is Linux and while it may use a Gentoo packaging system,
> the user does not have acces to any of it. The machine and the OS are
> custom designed to _only_ run the Chrome web browser.
>
> That's it.
>
> Nothing else.
>
> So, the concept of getting a shell and compiling other code is out.
>
> Having said that, ... there is a built in "terminal" in the browser,
> so you can ssh to other machines. Last I checked or used it, it didn't
> support SSH tunnels, but they were working on it. There are also apps
> that allow VNC connections. So, you might be able to do what you want
> anyway.
>
> The apps I'm talking about, by the way, are Chrome apps. So, a good
> test to see if a Chromebook is right for you is to sit down at your
> current Linux box, open Chrome OS, and then see if you can get your
> work done. You'd need to start by looking at the apps available in the
> Chrome Web Store:
>
> https://chrome.google.com/webstore
>
> There's a lot there. These apps run in one of two ways: as a
> "weblication" that basically takes you to a web site or as an
> in-browser app that's likely running via Javascript and other
> HTML5/CSS wizardry.
>
> If you can get through a week's worth of day-to-day work using nothing
> but the Chrome browser and the apps you find, then go get a Chromebook
> as it will be perfect for you. I'm one such candidate, but I'm a
> cheap, frugal sort and just haven't ponied up the money to go get one
> yet. I'd love one!
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> P.S. Go to a Best Buy and play with one. You should be able to get the
> store person to take it out of "demo" mode so you can actually log
> into your own Google account. Doing so will auto-magically load all
> the "apps" you've installed in your Linux Chrome browser right onto
> the machine (it's all synced via the Google cloud), so you'll be able
> to test your real situation on a real Chromebook before you make a
> purchase decision.
>
> --
> Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
> 612.234.7778 (m)
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 16:02:41 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:02:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301131524530.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Thanks, Brian.  That was a huge help.
There is a lot I don't understand about their system.  For SSH, they have 
a FAQ here:

http://goo.gl/m6Nj8

It says this:

211 > Can I use Secure Shell for port forwarding?
212
213 Yes.  Enter your port forwarding options in the "SSH Arguments" field of
214 the connect dialog.  The port forward will be active for the duration of
215 the Secure Shell session.

So I guess it will do it, now, but this section about the config file 
threw me off for a minute:

171 See <http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=ssh_config> for more
172 information about the ssh configuration syntax.  Keep in mind that any
173 directives that would require access outside of the NaCl sandbox will not
174 function properly.  This includes (but is not limited to) X11 forwarding,
175 syslog functionality, and anything that requires a domain socket.

But that is only about the config file.

Next I have to find out about VNC -- there are a few options in the Store. 
Then I just might give it a try (meaning that I'd actually buy one of the 
cheapest Chromebooks).  I'll let you know.

Mike


On Sun, 13 Jan 2013, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I haven't seen any other answers to your query come in, so I thought
> I'd take a stab.
>
> Google's Chromebooks are _very_ specialized laptops. While the
> underlying OS is Linux and while it may use a Gentoo packaging system,
> the user does not have acces to any of it. The machine and the OS are
> custom designed to _only_ run the Chrome web browser.
>
> That's it.
>
> Nothing else.
>
> So, the concept of getting a shell and compiling other code is out.
>
> Having said that, ... there is a built in "terminal" in the browser,
> so you can ssh to other machines. Last I checked or used it, it didn't
> support SSH tunnels, but they were working on it. There are also apps
> that allow VNC connections. So, you might be able to do what you want
> anyway.
>
> The apps I'm talking about, by the way, are Chrome apps. So, a good
> test to see if a Chromebook is right for you is to sit down at your
> current Linux box, open Chrome OS, and then see if you can get your
> work done. You'd need to start by looking at the apps available in the
> Chrome Web Store:
>
> https://chrome.google.com/webstore
>
> There's a lot there. These apps run in one of two ways: as a
> "weblication" that basically takes you to a web site or as an
> in-browser app that's likely running via Javascript and other
> HTML5/CSS wizardry.
>
> If you can get through a week's worth of day-to-day work using nothing
> but the Chrome browser and the apps you find, then go get a Chromebook
> as it will be perfect for you. I'm one such candidate, but I'm a
> cheap, frugal sort and just haven't ponied up the money to go get one
> yet. I'd love one!
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> P.S. Go to a Best Buy and play with one. You should be able to get the
> store person to take it out of "demo" mode so you can actually log
> into your own Google account. Doing so will auto-magically load all
> the "apps" you've installed in your Linux Chrome browser right onto
> the machine (it's all synced via the Google cloud), so you'll be able
> to test your real situation on a real Chromebook before you make a
> purchase decision.
>
> --
> Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
> 612.234.7778 (m)
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 16:13:37 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 16:13:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAAOshu0eJmd-_LcsDCgAaDYzR1yHsErdggqfeF6xV8b0sFxTCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAOshu0eJmd-_LcsDCgAaDYzR1yHsErdggqfeF6xV8b0sFxTCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301131611490.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 13 Jan 2013, Adam Nave wrote:

> Some details on the internal chrome shell:
>
> http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/poking-around-your-chrome-os-device
>
> That particular samsung chromebook has a reputation for running Ubuntu 
> with good benchmarks, though I didn't immediately find good instructions 
> on how to make it happen, and I don't know if the full range of drivers 
> are available. Also note that it uses an ARM processor, not x86.

Thanks for the tips!  That's a good point about the ARM processor.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 00:13:47 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:13:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Aaron Swartz
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301132355320.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

This is terribly sad news.  I'm sure there will be hell to pay for the way 
he was abused by the prosecutor.  I have the impression that the bullying 
was motivated partly by Swartz's association with Assange.  A genuine 
martyr is likely to motivate the movement, not stop it.


Aaron Swartz, Internet Pioneer, Found Dead Amid Prosecutor 'Bullying' In 
Unconventional Case

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/aaron-swartz_n_2463726.html


Best,

Mike

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Mon Jan 14 03:44:46 2013
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 02:44:46 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
Message-ID: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

I think this is may be my next phone, what do you thInk? I do like the
docking for a real computer option. A bluetooth keyboard and mouse would
make it just about right to use as a desktop.


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 03:54:58 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:54:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>

I have this firmly in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" category. Plus, 
to be honest, I'm fairly happy with Android on my phones. Heck, I can 
install sshd and login to the thing if I want to. I don't feel the need to 
be running Alpine or compiling code on a mobile device with a small 
screen.

Now on my tablets, that may be a different story.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:

> I think this is may be my next phone, what do you thInk? I do like the
> docking for a real computer option. A bluetooth keyboard and mouse would
> make it just about right to use as a desktop.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From jeruvin at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 10:27:18 2013
From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:27:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
Message-ID: <CAPnpKPmm+zry_BnF3V-t_wV3cDVZtJU4=hOkeTWyMaub3SSZJA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking forward to trying the phone once it's released. I don't have
high hopes of it beating out my Android phone.

Remember Openmoko (I think it was them) and their phone to be that never
was. Just feels like it'll happen again. If they put one out for a descent
price I'll give it a go.


On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> I have this firmly in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" category. Plus,
> to be honest, I'm fairly happy with Android on my phones. Heck, I can
> install sshd and login to the thing if I want to. I don't feel the need to
> be running Alpine or compiling code on a mobile device with a small screen.
>
> Now on my tablets, that may be a different story.
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:
>
>  I think this is may be my next phone, what do you thInk? I do like the
>> docking for a real computer option. A bluetooth keyboard and mouse would
>> make it just about right to use as a desktop.
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>



-- 
jason
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Mon Jan 14 12:02:43 2013
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:02:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Aaron Swartz on DemocracyNow!
Message-ID: <50F44843.4040506@meltel.net>

democracynow.org has a nice, hour long tribute to Aaron Swartz. Worth 
viewing.
Tom


From trieff at greencaremankato.com  Mon Jan 14 12:03:47 2013
From: trieff at greencaremankato.com (Thomas Rieff)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:03:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebuilding Raid 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1358186401.10753.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1358186401.10753.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>

TCLUG,
I have an Ubuntu 12.04 server that one of the drives in the Raid 1 configuration has failed.
How do I replace that drive and rebuild it???
Tom

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 

From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Jan 14 12:18:19 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:18:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebuilding Raid 1
In-Reply-To: <2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
References: <mailman.1.1358186401.10753.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
Message-ID: <50F44BEB.1010409@me.com>

On 1/14/2013 12:03 PM, Thomas Rieff wrote:
> TCLUG,
> I have an Ubuntu 12.04 server that one of the drives in the Raid 1 configuration has failed.
> How do I replace that drive and rebuild it???
> Tom
>
> Thomas Rieff
> GreenCare
> 1717 3rd Avenue
> Mankato, MN 56001
> (507) 344-8314 Office
> (507) 344-8316 Fax
> (507) 381-0660 Cell
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
Is it a hardware or software RAID?

From tclug at beitsahour.net  Mon Jan 14 12:39:17 2013
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:39:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebuilding Raid 1
In-Reply-To: <2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
References: <mailman.1.1358186401.10753.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xasBQ5xAFh4PVNhQYa3j+G7H3ZgDWaFbx_JwgGTJDRC-Rw@mail.gmail.com>

You need to plug in a new drive of equal or greater size,

create on this new drive a partition for each raided partitions(if you
RAIDed the partitions rather than the whole disk) that is at least the same
size as the original partitions, at it simplest you can try something like:
sfdisk -d /dev/sda | sfdisk /dev/sdb

now you can add the new disk partitions to the raid array:

mdadm --add /dev/<array> /dev/<new partition to add to the raid array>

mdadm --detail /dev/md0(or whatever) will give you more information about
the raid array, which will help you determine which partition will go into
which array.

for hardware raid, that is dependent on the raid controller.



On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Thomas Rieff
<trieff at greencaremankato.com>wrote:

> TCLUG,
> I have an Ubuntu 12.04 server that one of the drives in the Raid 1
> configuration has failed.
> How do I replace that drive and rebuild it???
> Tom
>
> Thomas Rieff
> GreenCare
> 1717 3rd Avenue
> Mankato, MN 56001
> (507) 344-8314 Office
> (507) 344-8316 Fax
> (507) 381-0660 Cell
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From trieff at greencaremankato.com  Mon Jan 14 13:28:34 2013
From: trieff at greencaremankato.com (Thomas Rieff)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:28:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebuilding Raid 1
In-Reply-To: <50F44BEB.1010409@me.com>
References: <mailman.1.1358186401.10753.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<2084946199.214289.1358186627992.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
	<50F44BEB.1010409@me.com>
Message-ID: <1486030907.220918.1358191714393.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>

TCLUG,
...The question asked by Ryan...
Is it a hardware or software RAID?

Good question...the answer is software Raid 1.
I have 2-500 gig SATA drives and on each drive is...
    1-2 gig partition for swap.
    1-488 gig partition for /.
Do I just swap/replace the drive???
Or do I partition and format the new drive and then add it???
Tom

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Coleman" <ryanjcole at me.com>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Cc: "Thomas Rieff" <trieff at greencaremankato.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:18:19 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Rebuilding Raid 1

On 1/14/2013 12:03 PM, Thomas Rieff wrote:
> TCLUG,
> I have an Ubuntu 12.04 server that one of the drives in the Raid 1 configuration has failed.
> How do I replace that drive and rebuild it???
> Tom
>
> Thomas Rieff
> GreenCare
> 1717 3rd Avenue
> Mankato, MN 56001
> (507) 344-8314 Office
> (507) 344-8316 Fax
> (507) 381-0660 Cell
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
Is it a hardware or software RAID?

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 16:02:32 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:02:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <CAPnpKPmm+zry_BnF3V-t_wV3cDVZtJU4=hOkeTWyMaub3SSZJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<CAPnpKPmm+zry_BnF3V-t_wV3cDVZtJU4=hOkeTWyMaub3SSZJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141556050.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, jason reynolds wrote:

> I'm looking forward to trying the phone once it's released. I don't have 
> high hopes of it beating out my Android phone.
>
> Remember Openmoko (I think it was them) and their phone to be that never 
> was. Just feels like it'll happen again. If they put one out for a 
> descent price I'll give it a go.


I use Ubuntu all the time but I had only heard of one of these projects 
before today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Mobile  (defunct)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Phone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_for_Android
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_TV

Interesting.  I had heard of the Ubuntu for Android scheme and it sounds 
like a great idea.  It is so appealing that I have to think it will take 
over someday as phones become more powerful and any bugs are worked out.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 17:41:02 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:41:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> I have this firmly in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" category. 
> Plus, to be honest, I'm fairly happy with Android on my phones. Heck, I 
> can install sshd and login to the thing if I want to. I don't feel the 
> need to be running Alpine or compiling code on a mobile device with a 
> small screen.

I don't know much about what's been going on lately in the smart phone 
world.  I've had a Palm Pre since it came out and it has not gone well. 
I'm thinking of either dumping the phone service altogether (using Google 
Voice, plus my wife's cell on weekends is probably good enough), or maybe 
trying an Android phone.

The Nexus 4 sounds really cool.  They say they'll have some at the 
T-Mobile store next week.  It is a lot of money with a two-year contract, 
but then I'd be staying with the modern world where everyone has a cell 
phone.  Is that really worth $2/day?  I'm trying to decide.

Google seems to sell an unlocked contract-free Nexus 4, but they are 
currently sold out:

https://play.google.com/store/devices/details/Nexus_4_16GB?id=nexus_4_16gb

Maybe I should be waiting for that.

Does anyone know if the Ubuntu for Android should work on the Nexus 4, if 
it ever comes out?  Maybe it's supposed to work on any Android system, 
regardless of the processor type, because it will use the Android kernel, 
but maybe that isn't even possible and different Ubuntu-for-Android 
systems will have to be released for different processors.


> Now on my tablets, that may be a different story.

Coincidentally, I just ran across this:

The LINUX TABLET IS THE FUTURE - and it always will be
The Penguin Xmas present that'll never be in the present
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/26/year_of_the_linux_tablet/

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 17:47:05 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 17:47:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>

At this point, I'd wait for the next Nexus.

I've had Nexus phones since the Nexus One - but since the Galaxy Nexus 
(which I have now) I believe that I (and by extension, other geeks/nerds) 
are no longer the target audience for the Nexus line.

They're no longer the absoutely Top Of The Line phone, for one, and the 
cardinal sin is that they don't have expandable memory. The Nexus 4 is 
limited to 16GB of internal storage, with no way to expand. This makes me 
sad as I've already filled up the 16GB on my Galaxy Nexus.

That said, the Nexus 4 /was/ a lot cheaper off-contract than anything even 
remotely comperable.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> I have this firmly in the "I'll Believe It When I See It" category. Plus, 
>> to be honest, I'm fairly happy with Android on my phones. Heck, I can 
>> install sshd and login to the thing if I want to. I don't feel the need to 
>> be running Alpine or compiling code on a mobile device with a small screen.
>
> I don't know much about what's been going on lately in the smart phone world. 
> I've had a Palm Pre since it came out and it has not gone well. I'm thinking 
> of either dumping the phone service altogether (using Google Voice, plus my 
> wife's cell on weekends is probably good enough), or maybe trying an Android 
> phone.
>
> The Nexus 4 sounds really cool.  They say they'll have some at the T-Mobile 
> store next week.  It is a lot of money with a two-year contract, but then I'd 
> be staying with the modern world where everyone has a cell phone.  Is that 
> really worth $2/day?  I'm trying to decide.
>
> Google seems to sell an unlocked contract-free Nexus 4, but they are 
> currently sold out:
>
> https://play.google.com/store/devices/details/Nexus_4_16GB?id=nexus_4_16gb
>
> Maybe I should be waiting for that.
>
> Does anyone know if the Ubuntu for Android should work on the Nexus 4, if it 
> ever comes out?  Maybe it's supposed to work on any Android system, 
> regardless of the processor type, because it will use the Android kernel, but 
> maybe that isn't even possible and different Ubuntu-for-Android systems will 
> have to be released for different processors.
>
>
>> Now on my tablets, that may be a different story.
>
> Coincidentally, I just ran across this:
>
> The LINUX TABLET IS THE FUTURE - and it always will be
> The Penguin Xmas present that'll never be in the present
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/26/year_of_the_linux_tablet/
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 18:14:35 2013
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:14:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Aaron Swartz
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301132355320.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301132355320.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-UcEuFq0pqs1yfL-hxSRkRmOQh+Psrg=u_2SJtrv7pTA@mail.gmail.com>

I liked Greenwald's article the most, of the ones I read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/12/aaron-swartz-heroism-suicide1

-Rob



On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is terribly sad news.  I'm sure there will be hell to pay for the way
> he was abused by the prosecutor.  I have the impression that the bullying
> was motivated partly by Swartz's association with Assange.  A genuine
> martyr is likely to motivate the movement, not stop it.
>
>
> Aaron Swartz, Internet Pioneer, Found Dead Amid Prosecutor 'Bullying' In
> Unconventional Case
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/**2013/01/12/aaron-swartz_n_**2463726.html<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/aaron-swartz_n_2463726.html>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 18:21:58 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:21:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Aaron Swartz
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301132355320.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301132355320.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3dxoZVxd9qNTEDTWXztb0qvSxEq3kT2ZMfcFtFT44kcw@mail.gmail.com>

For those interested in creating more awareness and hopefully obtain
some semblance of justice regarding the prosecutor involved there is a
petition on the White House site:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck

The petition is picking up a lot of steam, I encourage people to read
the articles noted in the petition and make an educated choice on the
matter.

May Aaron rest in peace and his case be made known for the clear
injustice it was heading for.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is terribly sad news.  I'm sure there will be hell to pay for the way
> he was abused by the prosecutor.  I have the impression that the bullying
> was motivated partly by Swartz's association with Assange.  A genuine martyr
> is likely to motivate the movement, not stop it.
>
>
> Aaron Swartz, Internet Pioneer, Found Dead Amid Prosecutor 'Bullying' In
> Unconventional Case
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/aaron-swartz_n_2463726.html
>
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 18:40:51 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:40:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>

...anyone want a Kindle Fire that's been unlocked, rooted and has 
CyanogenMod 10.1 (which is Android 4.2.1) on it? Yours for $80!



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 18:42:49 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:42:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> At this point, I'd wait for the next Nexus.

How long of a wait is that?


> I've had Nexus phones since the Nexus One - but since the Galaxy Nexus 
> (which I have now) I believe that I (and by extension, other 
> geeks/nerds) are no longer the target audience for the Nexus line.
>
> They're no longer the absoutely Top Of The Line phone, for one,

Good to know, but what is the absolute top of the line?


> and the cardinal sin is that they don't have expandable memory. The 
> Nexus 4 is limited to 16GB of internal storage, with no way to expand. 
> This makes me sad as I've already filled up the 16GB on my Galaxy Nexus.

They did that with the Palm Pre, too.  I wondered why.  Is it because they 
want to push us into using "cloud" storage?  I think so, but that doesn't 
work when you don't have a good internet connection.


> That said, the Nexus 4 /was/ a lot cheaper off-contract than anything 
> even remotely comperable.

I'll have to think about that, too.  I'm not in much of a hurry, though, 
so I can take some time to see what develops.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 18:47:43 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:47:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141847110.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> ...anyone want a Kindle Fire that's been unlocked, rooted and has 
> CyanogenMod 10.1 (which is Android 4.2.1) on it? Yours for $80!

I'll take it.  Where are you?

I'm at E Lake and 41st Ave S, Minneapolis.

Mike

From eric.schultz at mchsi.com  Mon Jan 14 18:54:15 2013
From: eric.schultz at mchsi.com (Eric Schultz)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:54:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
Message-ID: <C2D6399E-AE16-4C0D-AA6A-D99E2E5C161E@mchsi.com>

If mike didn't get it, I would take it.   You didn't like it or did it not root properly.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 14, 2013, at 6:40 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> ...anyone want a Kindle Fire that's been unlocked, rooted and has CyanogenMod 10.1 (which is Android 4.2.1) on it? Yours for $80!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 18:54:53 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:54:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> At this point, I'd wait for the next Nexus.
>
> How long of a wait is that?

Rumours are LG stopped making the Nexus 4 because they're working on the 
next one. I kinda wish HTC would make them again...

> Good to know, but what is the absolute top of the line?

Well, the Nexus 4 /is/ amazing, hardware-wise. The Samsung Galaxy S3 is 
pretty good too. The HTC Droid DNA has an amazing screen.... it's all 
about what you want.

I'd be all over the HTC One X+ if it didn't have phsyical buttons.

Also, for me, a requirement is a CyanogenMod port.

> They did that with the Palm Pre, too.  I wondered why.  Is it because they 
> want to push us into using "cloud" storage?  I think so, but that doesn't 
> work when you don't have a good internet connection.

Their story is that having external storage "confuses" people.

I can kinda see that - this is why I say the Nexus 4 is more geared 
towards people like my mom than people like me. Don't get me wrong, my mom 
got a Samsung Galaxy S3 and /despite/ my advice, she unlocked, rooted and 
put CyanogenMod on it on her own. But having separate internal storage and 
external storage does confuse her a bit sometimes and makes it more 
difficult for her to find where exactly things are.

>> That said, the Nexus 4 /was/ a lot cheaper off-contract than anything even 
>> remotely comperable.
> I'll have to think about that, too.  I'm not in much of a hurry, though, so I 
> can take some time to see what develops.

Won't T-Mobile sell it off-contract? I thought they were doing that now.

I've been with T-Mobile for almost a decade, but I never buy my phones 
from them.



--

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 18:56:44 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:56:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141847110.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141847110.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141855160.16214@dragon>

I'm A) In Shoreview, and B) In no condition to drive any kind of distance 
for the next few days. Drop me an email off-list if you want it. Note that 
it does NOT have the Kindle software on it - you can still put the Kindle 
app on and read Kindle books, but you can't use the Amazon Prime instant 
video stuff.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>
>> ...anyone want a Kindle Fire that's been unlocked, rooted and has 
>> CyanogenMod 10.1 (which is Android 4.2.1) on it? Yours for $80!
>
> I'll take it.  Where are you?
>
> I'm at E Lake and 41st Ave S, Minneapolis.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 14 19:03:39 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:03:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
In-Reply-To: <C2D6399E-AE16-4C0D-AA6A-D99E2E5C161E@mchsi.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141838550.16214@dragon>
	<C2D6399E-AE16-4C0D-AA6A-D99E2E5C161E@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141856510.16214@dragon>

I'll let you know if Mike doesn't want it, but just for general info, it 
work just fine running CyanogenMod, and before that it was running AOKP, 
and before that a CM10 kang, and before that I just rooted the Kindle 
version (:

I got it for fairly cheap (which is why I don't mind selling it for cheap) 
and I really only got it because my mom kept asking me questions about HER 
Kindle Fire and I wanted a common frame of reference. I used it for a bit, 
especially after my Touchpad died, but frankly the 7" tablet size just 
doesn't work for me. I have my 4+" phone for handheld, and I have a Nexus 
10 for 'real' tablet.

Basically, since it's running a regular (though modded) Android version, 
you can't use it for the Amazon Prime free crap. But you /can/ install the 
Kindle app on it.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2013, Eric Schultz wrote:

> If mike didn't get it, I would take it.   You didn't like it or did it not root properly.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 14, 2013, at 6:40 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>
>> ...anyone want a Kindle Fire that's been unlocked, rooted and has CyanogenMod 10.1 (which is Android 4.2.1) on it? Yours for $80!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 11:16:29 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:16:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
Message-ID: <CABWFOjtiS-wYia95ZcrH5Y6jPtfNT-Q56KcKL4dRKz_oxHukPw@mail.gmail.com>

From: Mike Miller

> I'll take it. Where are you?
>
> I'm at E Lake and 41st Ave S, Minneapolis.
Hmm.  Didn't you say you were going to be
in Ecuador for a year or two.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises  -- making programming fun again.
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From james007wjs at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 16:42:58 2013
From: james007wjs at gmail.com (wes smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:42:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Aaron Swartz
Message-ID: <CANQN+fP1U3Z9Oy0xhgrXYfvwfNq=+TW1xUHqpJD+dZ_gRSkmXw@mail.gmail.com>

Be sure to also check out
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/01/aaron-swartz-fix-draconian-computer-crime-law

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/reform-computer-fraud-and-abuse-act-reflect-realities-computing-and-networks-2013/qMvdwVNw

Don't know if updating the cfaa will make it better or worse.

> For those interested in creating more awareness and hopefully obtain
> some semblance of justice regarding the prosecutor involved there is a
> petition on the White House site:
>
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-united-states-district-attorney-carmen-ortiz-office-overreach-case-aaron-swartz/RQNrG1Ck
>
> The petition is picking up a lot of steam, I encourage people to read
> the articles noted in the petition and make an educated choice on the
> matter.
>
> May Aaron rest in peace and his case be made known for the clear
> injustice it was heading for.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:13 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > This is terribly sad news.  I'm sure there will be hell to pay for the
> way
> > he was abused by the prosecutor.  I have the impression that the bullying
> > was motivated partly by Swartz's association with Assange.  A genuine
> martyr
> > is likely to motivate the movement, not stop it.
> >
> >
> > Aaron Swartz, Internet Pioneer, Found Dead Amid Prosecutor 'Bullying' In
> > Unconventional Case
> >
> > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/aaron-swartz_n_2463726.html
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Mike
>
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From kcbnac at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 22:54:11 2013
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:54:11 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Chrome, Chromebooks, Linux and gcc, etc.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301131611490.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301121055330.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAEsyLJF5bG5aueKrYOfbwtUf5WQs_FCU+8Yn9nt+yBD7djz8mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAOshu0eJmd-_LcsDCgAaDYzR1yHsErdggqfeF6xV8b0sFxTCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301131611490.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMfBFyLyh62QcJDR7Jz1pKsNAw7-r1oaheTVTbQm=Bvo27RpXw@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't been following him lately, but this is one of the ChromeOS
developers, talking about getting Ubuntu on the Samsung Chromebook:

https://plus.google.com/109993695638569781190/posts/b2fazijJppZ

He has newer posts linking to others with success as well.  So you CAN
boot Ubuntu.  (I was pondering one, and throwing in an SDHC/SDXC card
with Ubuntu on it, but keeping the 'Chrome' install on the internal
SSD; as a lightweight portable machine but Woot put a Thinkpad X130e
up for $300 just before Christmas...)

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2013, Adam Nave wrote:
>
>> Some details on the internal chrome shell:
>>
>> http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/poking-around-your-chrome-os-device
>>
>> That particular samsung chromebook has a reputation for running Ubuntu
>> with good benchmarks, though I didn't immediately find good instructions on
>> how to make it happen, and I don't know if the full range of drivers are
>> available. Also note that it uses an ARM processor, not x86.
>
>
> Thanks for the tips!  That's a good point about the ARM processor.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 02:09:49 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 02:09:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Speaking of Android devices...
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjtiS-wYia95ZcrH5Y6jPtfNT-Q56KcKL4dRKz_oxHukPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjtiS-wYia95ZcrH5Y6jPtfNT-Q56KcKL4dRKz_oxHukPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160206370.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013, Brian Wood wrote:

> From: Mike Miller
>
>> I'll take it. Where are you?
>>
>> I'm at E Lake and 41st Ave S, Minneapolis.
>
> Hmm.  Didn't you say you were going to be in Ecuador for a year or two.

No, but I probably said that I wouldn't be back in Ecuador for a year or 
two.  I was just there for 23 days and I arrived at MSP on Thursday night.

I did pick up the Kindle today.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 02:22:13 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 02:22:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged me 
$500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no sense. 
If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how can I 
be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract 
supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on principal, 
pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see 
if I really need one.

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jan 16 02:25:16 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 02:25:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>

I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged me 
> $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably should 
> have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no sense. If Google 
> sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how can I be paying $500 
> *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract supposed to bring the 
> price down?  I might just return it, on principal, pay their $50 restocking 
> fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see if I really need one.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 07:44:27 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 07:44:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3hza73BSjVNEnTSP+XxaABHBayT4TDychUSzG9qc_F4w@mail.gmail.com>

You got hosed. IMHO unless you have money to burn I would return it.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged me
> $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably should
> have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no sense. If Google
> sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how can I be paying
> $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract supposed to bring
> the price down?  I might just return it, on principal, pay their $50
> restocking fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see if I really need
> one.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 12:14:34 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:14:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
Message-ID: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone gotten external VGA to work on a Thinkpad W530 or similar?

I'm running Debian and have the latest version of bumblebee installed,
which is working just fine. Pressing fn-F7 (the key with the projector icon
on it) causes the screen to blink for a moment, then come back with no
changes.

The Monitor Preferences list only one screen (I'm using MATE as my
desktop).


I've tried using xrandr, but VGA1 still says its disconnected.


michael at speed:~$ xrandr --addmode VGA1 1024x768
michael at speed:~$ xrandr --output VGA1 --mode 1024x768 --right-of LVDS1
michael at speed:~$ xrandr
Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2944 x 1080, maximum 8192 x 8192
LVDS1 connected 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
344mm x 193mm
   1920x1080      60.0*+   59.9     50.0
   1680x1050      60.0     59.9
   1600x1024      60.2
   1400x1050      60.0
   1280x1024      60.0
   1440x900       59.9
   1280x960       60.0
   1360x768       59.8     60.0
   1152x864       60.0
   1024x768       60.0
   800x600        60.3     56.2
   640x480        59.9
VGA1 disconnected 1024x768+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y
axis) 0mm x 0mm
   1024x768       60.0*

The monitor is on and plugged in.

If I can, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. If not, I can switch to
the nouveau drivers, or even just use the Intel card if that's what it
takes.


Thanks,
Michael Moore
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From gregday28 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 12:52:17 2013
From: gregday28 at gmail.com (Greg Day)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:52:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>

You must enable it from the BIOS first, then it works just fine in
mirror mode, dual screen mode, etc.  I've run an external monitor
using Gnome and Xmonad without issue.

Greg

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone gotten external VGA to work on a Thinkpad W530 or similar?
>
> I'm running Debian and have the latest version of bumblebee installed, which
> is working just fine. Pressing fn-F7 (the key with the projector icon on it)
> causes the screen to blink for a moment, then come back with no changes.
>
> The Monitor Preferences list only one screen (I'm using MATE as my desktop).
>
>
> I've tried using xrandr, but VGA1 still says its disconnected.
>
>
> michael at speed:~$ xrandr --addmode VGA1 1024x768
> michael at speed:~$ xrandr --output VGA1 --mode 1024x768 --right-of LVDS1
> michael at speed:~$ xrandr
> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2944 x 1080, maximum 8192 x 8192
> LVDS1 connected 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
> 344mm x 193mm
>    1920x1080      60.0*+   59.9     50.0
>    1680x1050      60.0     59.9
>    1600x1024      60.2
>    1400x1050      60.0
>    1280x1024      60.0
>    1440x900       59.9
>    1280x960       60.0
>    1360x768       59.8     60.0
>    1152x864       60.0
>    1024x768       60.0
>    800x600        60.3     56.2
>    640x480        59.9
> VGA1 disconnected 1024x768+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
> 0mm x 0mm
>    1024x768       60.0*
>
> The monitor is on and plugged in.
>
> If I can, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. If not, I can switch to
> the nouveau drivers, or even just use the Intel card if that's what it
> takes.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Moore
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:01:14 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:01:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
In-Reply-To: <CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGe7SU_=0QWVxBgxp22jAc2UtSjXvQ+B0Jig5H0oQXy8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On this topic, I figure I should mention Arandr if you're not aware of
it (http://christian.amsuess.com/tools/arandr/). Very handy and simple
tool to generate scripts (saved in ~/.screenlayout) to call xrandr for
you.

Only took me a minute to create a dual.sh and laptop.sh, which contain
the appropriate xrandr commands to display on two screens and just on
the laptop screen, respectively. Mapped those to key bindings in
xmonad.hs and now I have a very simple and reliable way of switching
modes.

I've always been frustrated by this, not just in Linux. I've found
Apple does a good job in OS X, and now I'm just as happy with my setup
in Linux :)

-Erik


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Greg Day <gregday28 at gmail.com> wrote:
> You must enable it from the BIOS first, then it works just fine in
> mirror mode, dual screen mode, etc.  I've run an external monitor
> using Gnome and Xmonad without issue.
>
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Has anyone gotten external VGA to work on a Thinkpad W530 or similar?
>>
>> I'm running Debian and have the latest version of bumblebee installed, which
>> is working just fine. Pressing fn-F7 (the key with the projector icon on it)
>> causes the screen to blink for a moment, then come back with no changes.
>>
>> The Monitor Preferences list only one screen (I'm using MATE as my desktop).
>>
>>
>> I've tried using xrandr, but VGA1 still says its disconnected.
>>
>>
>> michael at speed:~$ xrandr --addmode VGA1 1024x768
>> michael at speed:~$ xrandr --output VGA1 --mode 1024x768 --right-of LVDS1
>> michael at speed:~$ xrandr
>> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 2944 x 1080, maximum 8192 x 8192
>> LVDS1 connected 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
>> 344mm x 193mm
>>    1920x1080      60.0*+   59.9     50.0
>>    1680x1050      60.0     59.9
>>    1600x1024      60.2
>>    1400x1050      60.0
>>    1280x1024      60.0
>>    1440x900       59.9
>>    1280x960       60.0
>>    1360x768       59.8     60.0
>>    1152x864       60.0
>>    1024x768       60.0
>>    800x600        60.3     56.2
>>    640x480        59.9
>> VGA1 disconnected 1024x768+1920+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
>> 0mm x 0mm
>>    1024x768       60.0*
>>
>> The monitor is on and plugged in.
>>
>> If I can, I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. If not, I can switch to
>> the nouveau drivers, or even just use the Intel card if that's what it
>> takes.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael Moore
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:07:16 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:07:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
In-Reply-To: <CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KVWqnguZL3qZ2RQnmUdeKyMcmWZdSHJa0R15vRJu40NdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Greg Day <gregday28 at gmail.com> wrote:

> You must enable it from the BIOS first, then it works just fine in
> mirror mode, dual screen mode, etc.  I've run an external monitor
> using Gnome and Xmonad without issue.
>

I don't see an option for it in BIOS. Under Config->Display I have

Boot Display Device [ThinkPad LCD] (only option)
Graphics Device [NVIDIA Optimus] (or Integrated Graphics or Discrete
Graphics)
OS Detection for NVIDIA Optimus [DISABLED] (or Enabled)

Am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks,
Michael
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:08:43 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:08:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEGe7SU_=0QWVxBgxp22jAc2UtSjXvQ+B0Jig5H0oQXy8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEGe7SU_=0QWVxBgxp22jAc2UtSjXvQ+B0Jig5H0oQXy8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KVuakLErh_HHJ7yQRYtRvvp+0sSAq1dr5ygLyLUnORfPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> On this topic, I figure I should mention Arandr if you're not aware of
> it (http://christian.amsuess.com/tools/arandr/). Very handy and simple
> tool to generate scripts (saved in ~/.screenlayout) to call xrandr for
> you.
>

Very nice. I've written my own xrandr scripts before, but allowing for more
than just left-of/right-of sounds like a good feature.

--
Michael Moore
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From gregday28 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 13:56:47 2013
From: gregday28 at gmail.com (Greg Day)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:56:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thinkpad W530 external VGA?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KVWqnguZL3qZ2RQnmUdeKyMcmWZdSHJa0R15vRJu40NdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KWgsuh4q715f-dzFAynA2hSs3sZ6+2ou6TU1em2UAngTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPOA8ZxsVSaO+qGU0uduGYECmJQ+e5Cet3237z=muFcCAspbRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KVWqnguZL3qZ2RQnmUdeKyMcmWZdSHJa0R15vRJu40NdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPOA8Zw=DmgWApjWrennsE-LiA12d1chHuZwQH95UuCLtWbwkw@mail.gmail.com>

Can't remember exactly where it is and can't look right now.  By
default, the external VGA is turned off in BIOS.  Maybe it is boot
options, or devices, but somewhere you can choose that both are
initialized and which order they boot.  LVDS then external VGA.  I had
the same problem, it isn't clear why it won't work until you switch it
on in the BIOS.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Greg Day <gregday28 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You must enable it from the BIOS first, then it works just fine in
>> mirror mode, dual screen mode, etc.  I've run an external monitor
>> using Gnome and Xmonad without issue.
>
>
> I don't see an option for it in BIOS. Under Config->Display I have
>
> Boot Display Device [ThinkPad LCD] (only option)
> Graphics Device [NVIDIA Optimus] (or Integrated Graphics or Discrete
> Graphics)
> OS Detection for NVIDIA Optimus [DISABLED] (or Enabled)
>
> Am I looking in the wrong place?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 14:50:06 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:50:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
Message-ID: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>

Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option. 

(PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)

I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(

Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...

Susan Stewart 
Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
Dell Certified Systems Expert

From mattwj2002 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 17:26:02 2013
From: mattwj2002 at gmail.com (Matthew Junk)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:26:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADeMz-QahErdq4u4skPVhjbv8PJPkWA4yvh32y94paN7Bx=p8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Susan,

Do you have a wireless router?  They are dirt cheap if you don't.

If you are tech savvy, try shutting off the the wireless on the clear
4g modem and connect the wireless router's WAN to the ethernet port on
the clear 4g wireless modem.

Then anything you connect to the wireless router should work.  Ubuntu,
mac os x, or Windows.

Please only attempt that if you know a bit about networking.

Just an idea.

Thanks,

Matt

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option.
>
> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
>
> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
>
> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
>
> Susan Stewart
> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
> Dell Certified Systems Expert
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jan 16 17:27:56 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:27:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301161726050.24737@dragon>

Not knowing anything about how exactly Clear works...

Is it... I mean, what kind of device do you get? Do you get a 
router/modem, or a WiFi hotspot, or a USB stick or something? Not sure 
what they use... if it's something that generates a local hotspot, you 
should be fine.

What I'd do would be try an Ubuntu live CD and see if you can get online 
with that. If that works, no worries.

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Susan wrote:

> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option.
>
> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
>
> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
>
> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
>
> Susan Stewart
> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
> Dell Certified Systems Expert
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 17:53:16 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:53:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50884DB2-FCD1-4F51-9F5D-63209CAF05D4@gmail.com>

*throw NOT through - ha! ;)

Susan Stewart 

On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option. 
> 
> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
> 
> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
> 
> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
> 
> Susan Stewart 
> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
> Dell Certified Systems Expert

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 18:01:25 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:01:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] smart watches
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301161755440.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

You gadget-lovers probably know a few things about this kind of device. 
It runs Android, which has a Linux kernel, so it isn't even off-topic, 
maybe.  I just read this review and was disappointed:

http://gizmodo.com/5926728/sony-smartwatch-review-maybe-the-worst-thing-sony-has-ever-made

I was disappointed because I was thinking of buying one.  But if it's 
really *terrible*, I'm not going to buy it.

The idea is very cool.  I feel that the Gizmodo critic is expecting it to 
do things that it doesn't promise to do, but it also sounds like it 
doesn't do what one would expect.

For me, if the watch could just be a watch when out of contact with the 
Bluetooth phone, and hold contact when the phone is within 5 feet, that 
would be enough.

I'm not sure how well the battery holds up.  If it can't do a full 24 
hours without recharging, I wouldn't be very happy with it.

I think there will be a smart watch in my future, though.  It makes sense. 
Even if only to see who's calling without pulling the phone out of my 
pocket -- that would be awesome.

Mike

From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 18:47:35 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:47:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <50884DB2-FCD1-4F51-9F5D-63209CAF05D4@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
	<50884DB2-FCD1-4F51-9F5D-63209CAF05D4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6B4E1B80-F559-4277-965F-8B243EAF1763@gmail.com>

Okay...

I found this, so perhaps there's a way to accomplish this... I'll have to try it...

Although I work in I.T., I strictly do hardware break/fix, Dell Warranty Repairs in my professional role. Anything I do on the software end of things, well, I hack my way through with the help of my friend "Google." 

Susan Stewart 

On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:

> *throw NOT through - ha! ;)
> 
> Susan Stewart 
> 
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option. 
>> 
>> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
>> 
>> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
>> 
>> Susan Stewart 
>> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
>> Dell Certified Systems Expert

From bradyh at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 20:07:43 2013
From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:07:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <6B4E1B80-F559-4277-965F-8B243EAF1763@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
	<50884DB2-FCD1-4F51-9F5D-63209CAF05D4@gmail.com>
	<6B4E1B80-F559-4277-965F-8B243EAF1763@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <098EE042-8114-4D88-BBE7-07DCA1FC6413@gmail.com>

I have Clear...I connected it to my Ubuntu USB and it just said "Network connected" and I had Internet.  Completely automatic.

-Brady

On Jan 16, 2013, at 6:47 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:

> Okay...
> 
> I found this, so perhaps there's a way to accomplish this... I'll have to try it...
> 
> Although I work in I.T., I strictly do hardware break/fix, Dell Warranty Repairs in my professional role. Anything I do on the software end of things, well, I hack my way through with the help of my friend "Google." 
> 
> Susan Stewart 
> 
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> *throw NOT through - ha! ;)
>> 
>> Susan Stewart 
>> 
>> On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option. 
>>> 
>>> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
>>> 
>>> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
>>> 
>>> Susan Stewart 
>>> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
>>> Dell Certified Systems Expert
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 20:57:14 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:57:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1951.1358388479.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1951.1358388479.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <1332AFBC-B47A-496D-834F-7D6AD21129F1@gmail.com>

Thank you to everyone who responded!

0k, I'll reimage to Ubuntu this weekend... Hopefully it'll "just work," if not I'll connect my wireless router to the NIC port on my Clear Device... I'll report back my results..  

My Clear router/modem has two physical ports + operates wirelessly. Both of their PCs will be hardwired to the Clear device. And central long located in the house. They've been using my laptop & hiding out in their rod w/it... Time to put an end that! My son is 14 and his sister is nearly 13. I haven't set up their computers since we moved into this house, which was a year ago...  (Gulp!) 

As for my networking knowledge, ummmm...  I have owned Mike Meyer's Network+ book for 5+ years, & I've read it + referenced it... along with Google... but I haven't taken the Net+ certification exam &, to be honest, I would need to invest some significant time into studying before I'll be ready for that... I'd also probably need to get some new, updated, study materials for that... 

But getting certifications in place is in my short-term plans... A+, Net+  and then??? Either Linux+ or Microsoft... I think I know which direction this list would steer me! ;) - or maybe not? My goal is to get away from hardware break/fix within the next 18mos, so a M$ Win7 and/or office cert may serve me well for moving into a desktop support position... 

My kids' PCs have XP on them now, which despite my instructions, they didn't maintain with regard to the junk they download, while playing online games & such. They have been using my laptop & my son, especially, gunks up the system! 

I'm hoping having them use Ubuntu will result in systems with a longer half-life before they hose their OSs - ha! Maybe, maybe not! This is an experiment. They already use open office for school work, so Ubuntu should be just fine for their needs...)

As for me... I have used Ubuntu in the past & I'll dual boot my system to that w/Windows the next time I reimage it... The website where I submit my work mileage & expenses only works in IE, so for that & to stay on top of things, I need to maintain a Windows 7 environment. 

Thanks again! 

Susan



From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 21:02:24 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:02:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 26
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1951.1358388479.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1951.1358388479.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <EBEC9427-917A-4BF2-9743-8B936A653F77@gmail.com>

Oops... This is the link I found & meant to send... 

http://askubuntu.com/questions/163856/how-do-i-get-clear-wireless-to-work-on-ubuntu-is-there-a-solution

But I'll try the suggestions from list members here first...

:) Susan

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 22:03:39 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:03:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Clear 4G & Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <098EE042-8114-4D88-BBE7-07DCA1FC6413@gmail.com>
References: <A4251FCC-2596-4571-9ED8-62750C8C3832@gmail.com>
	<50884DB2-FCD1-4F51-9F5D-63209CAF05D4@gmail.com>
	<6B4E1B80-F559-4277-965F-8B243EAF1763@gmail.com>
	<098EE042-8114-4D88-BBE7-07DCA1FC6413@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0zMWLFAFDPkcN4H_16CW5HYaKd09_yZC_Gn0etmGbA3A@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of devices and services claim to only support Windows or Windows
/ Mac because Linux isn't often considered a household name for
personal computing. Fortunately this does not mean it won't work. And,
I don't believe you will need a hack to get Clear on Linux.

You should have a modem with a wireless router built in, or a USB
stick as your point of connection to Clear. The built-in wireless
router will work well with Ubuntu assuming the laptop has wireless
capabilities (which could also be added cheaply if needed). Most
people on this mailing list could help out if this is the case.

One of the USB sticks (I'm guessing this is the one Brady has),
advertises support for Linux and Android -
http://www.clear.com/devices/details/id/devatlas/name/CLEAR-Stick-Atlas.
If you are going the solo connection route with the USB stick and have
a choice, go for that one since Linux support appears to be good (my
guess is the Ubuntu kernel has drivers built in for common wimax
devices so you shouldn't need to compile or toy with drivers). The
other dongle looks to be tethered to some weird proprietary connection
manager and does not claim Linux support (may work, but may require
some hacking).

Good luck. Clear should also be able to assist with basic setup in
Linux since they advertise support for it with some of their devices.
Another thing to keep in mind, Clear is not doing so well and hasn't
for awhile- a useful tool to leverage as a consumer to get deals and
good support for tempting them with a loyal customer carrot.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Brady Hegberg <bradyh at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have Clear...I connected it to my Ubuntu USB and it just said "Network connected" and I had Internet.  Completely automatic.
>
> -Brady
>
> On Jan 16, 2013, at 6:47 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Okay...
>>
>> I found this, so perhaps there's a way to accomplish this... I'll have to try it...
>>
>> Although I work in I.T., I strictly do hardware break/fix, Dell Warranty Repairs in my professional role. Anything I do on the software end of things, well, I hack my way through with the help of my friend "Google."
>>
>> Susan Stewart
>>
>> On Jan 16, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *throw NOT through - ha! ;)
>>>
>>> Susan Stewart
>>>
>>> On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi! I was planning to reimage my kids' PCs to Ubuntu but just got Clear 4G for Internet, it's paid up for 15-months so that will be my Internet for awhile, switching to Comcast therefore isn't an option.
>>>>
>>>> (PCsforPeople, a non-profit in St.Paul on Marshall Ave, offers Clear 4G for $170 for 15months with the purchase of their modem/router if your family qualifies for low-income.)
>>>>
>>>> I'll admit I only did a quick Google search, but it seems Clear 4G only works with Windows/MAC :(
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know of a hack? I'll do more searching when I have time, but thought I'd through the question out there on this list...
>>>>
>>>> Susan Stewart
>>>> Unisys Technical Services Field Technician
>>>> Dell Certified Systems Expert
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 22:13:46 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:13:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] smart watches
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301161755440.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301161755440.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3CmvP4b7soBFapk3x-4H8DvuctxNiZwPyC0mH3TNQgjw@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

How about a Nano watch? Not sure if it scratches the tell me who is
causing my phone to vibrate in my pocket itch, but they do make cool
watches (screensaver can be sit as couple of different clocks), and
charging should be acceptable for your parameters if you're not using
the Nano too much.

Buy a Nano and a strap (or pay more for someone who put the two together):
http://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Jockey-Casual-Grid-watch/dp/B004B7FXHI/ref=cm_lmf_tit_4/179-7700472-3546960

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> You gadget-lovers probably know a few things about this kind of device. It
> runs Android, which has a Linux kernel, so it isn't even off-topic, maybe.
> I just read this review and was disappointed:
>
> http://gizmodo.com/5926728/sony-smartwatch-review-maybe-the-worst-thing-sony-has-ever-made
>
> I was disappointed because I was thinking of buying one.  But if it's really
> *terrible*, I'm not going to buy it.
>
> The idea is very cool.  I feel that the Gizmodo critic is expecting it to do
> things that it doesn't promise to do, but it also sounds like it doesn't do
> what one would expect.
>
> For me, if the watch could just be a watch when out of contact with the
> Bluetooth phone, and hold contact when the phone is within 5 feet, that
> would be enough.
>
> I'm not sure how well the battery holds up.  If it can't do a full 24 hours
> without recharging, I wouldn't be very happy with it.
>
> I think there will be a smart watch in my future, though.  It makes sense.
> Even if only to see who's calling without pulling the phone out of my pocket
> -- that would be awesome.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 00:30:49 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:30:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] smart watches
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO3CmvP4b7soBFapk3x-4H8DvuctxNiZwPyC0mH3TNQgjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301161755440.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CACEdYO3CmvP4b7soBFapk3x-4H8DvuctxNiZwPyC0mH3TNQgjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170029210.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> How about a Nano watch? Not sure if it scratches the tell me who is 
> causing my phone to vibrate in my pocket itch, but they do make cool 
> watches (screensaver can be sit as couple of different clocks), and 
> charging should be acceptable for your parameters if you're not using 
> the Nano too much.
>
> Buy a Nano and a strap (or pay more for someone who put the two together):
> http://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Jockey-Casual-Grid-watch/dp/B004B7FXHI/ref=cm_lmf_tit_4/179-7700472-3546960


It looks like a better device than the Sony Smartwatch - much better 
resolution and similar dimensions.  It can do Bluetooth, but I don't know 
what it can do with it.  It looks like a fun thing to play with.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 00:37:18 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:37:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I was just messing around with the virtual keyboard on an Android device. 
I'm used to using lots of ctrl and alt keys.  I'm not sure I can do that 
with this kind of keyboard.  What do you think?  Is there an easy way to 
get that to work.

For example, I tried this command:

ping my.host

And it started pinging one per second.  So far, so good, but I always stop 
that process with Ctrl-C.  I couldn't figure out how to do Ctrl-C, so I 
ended up killing the terminal to deal with it!!  ;-)


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jan 17 00:38:10 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:38:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>

Look for Hacker's Keyboard on the Play store. It will solve all your 
problems.

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> I was just messing around with the virtual keyboard on an Android device. I'm 
> used to using lots of ctrl and alt keys.  I'm not sure I can do that with 
> this kind of keyboard.  What do you think?  Is there an easy way to get that 
> to work.
>
> For example, I tried this command:
>
> ping my.host
>
> And it started pinging one per second.  So far, so good, but I always stop 
> that process with Ctrl-C.  I couldn't figure out how to do Ctrl-C, so I ended 
> up killing the terminal to deal with it!!  ;-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 00:55:31 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 00:55:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170055200.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> Look for Hacker's Keyboard on the Play store. It will solve all your 
> problems.

Perfect.  Thanks!

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jan 17 01:15:58 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 01:15:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170055200.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170055200.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170111590.26188@dragon>

Although really most keyboards have a method for control characters. 
Sometimes it's like Volume-Up+Key for Ctrl, etc.



On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> Look for Hacker's Keyboard on the Play store. It will solve all your 
>> problems.
>
> Perfect.  Thanks!
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 09:51:58 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:51:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170111590.26188@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170055200.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170111590.26188@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170950310.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> Although really most keyboards have a method for control characters. 
> Sometimes it's like Volume-Up+Key for Ctrl, etc.


I was using the Cyanogenmod Kindle Fire and it was saying Vol-Dn, but I 
couldn't find a volume button.  Does it have volume buttons?

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jan 17 11:03:57 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:03:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using virtual keyboards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170950310.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170031160.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170037520.26188@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170055200.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301170111590.26188@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301170950310.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301171101060.27329@dragon>

Haha. You're right. The KF doesn't really have any buttons except power...

There are many alternative keyboards for Android. I like Swype for phones 
and Swiftkey Tablet for tablets. Sadly Swiftkey is not free and Swype is a 
bit of a procedure (you can't just get it from the store).

Although I think the default keyboard now has swype-like features.

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> Although really most keyboards have a method for control characters. 
>> Sometimes it's like Volume-Up+Key for Ctrl, etc.
>
>
> I was using the Cyanogenmod Kindle Fire and it was saying Vol-Dn, but I 
> couldn't find a volume button.  Does it have volume buttons?
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 11:47:43 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:47:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I have CenturyLink service, again.  It was down for awhile and it was not 
easy to get service when I had to deal with their call center in the 
Philippines.  They seemed like really nice people and they spoke great 
English, but when they ordered a service for me, it never happened. 
They'd give me a tracking number, but the system would still have no 
record of my order and no record of the tracking number!

Anyway, while I had no CenturyLink, I used the USI Wireless internet 
system.  They charge $10 for one day, which is ridiculous, but they charge 
$18 for a week and $25 for a month, or $20 for monthly recurring.

I had huge problems with lots of disconnects and dropped packets, but I 
was grateful that I could get something while my CenturyLink was down. 
When I first signed up, I chose this WiFi connection...

City of Minneapolis Public WiFi

...opened the web browser, got a username/password for login and ordered a 
week of service.  After a few days, I realized that I had other options 
like these:

usiw_secure
usiw_secure_S06N139T1
USI Wireless
usiw_secure_S01N129T1

I used usiw_secure with the username/password established above, and that 
made things work a *lot* better.  I had been getting highly variable ping 
times to my office machine, lots of dropped packets, lots of stalling of 
VNC connection, but now I was getting 30 ms pings, good consistency, no 
dropped packets, smooth operation of VNC -- everything better.  Now it 
could be some confounder like the time of day, but I'm pretty convinced 
that the usiw_secure just worked tons better.  A speed test showed 1 Mbps 
both up and down.

Another thing -- I tried to figure out where in my home I had the best 
reception.  So I started pinging my office machine, once per second (the 
USI WiFi router didn't respond to ping) and I walked around the house 
looking for patterns.  It seemed best toward the southwest of my house. 
Is there a better way to test signal strength?  Is there a better way to 
improve reception?

Anyway, thought I'd put that out there in case it helps anyone, but I also 
wanted to hear if anyone has any ideas on how to deal better with some of 
these issues.  Thanks.

Mike

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 11:56:48 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:56:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CANNReEG=4Ov-BqhzYFpBsY=QWn4gmkRzyYys6CRCzx0rR_rtUQ@mail.gmail.com>

I used USI Wireless at my old house and was very happy with it. I had
one of their "modems" with an external antenna, and always had strong
signal strength. I had clear line of site to a node, however, and
placed my antenna in a window so there was nothing obstructing the
signal.

One thing they mentioned at some point was that laptops typically are
not transmitting as strong a signal as their stations, and this can
lead to problems. Your laptop can receive their signal just fine, but
sending packets is a different story, and your signal strength
indicator doesn't show this.

-Erik

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have CenturyLink service, again.  It was down for awhile and it was not
> easy to get service when I had to deal with their call center in the
> Philippines.  They seemed like really nice people and they spoke great
> English, but when they ordered a service for me, it never happened. They'd
> give me a tracking number, but the system would still have no record of my
> order and no record of the tracking number!
>
> Anyway, while I had no CenturyLink, I used the USI Wireless internet system.
> They charge $10 for one day, which is ridiculous, but they charge $18 for a
> week and $25 for a month, or $20 for monthly recurring.
>
> I had huge problems with lots of disconnects and dropped packets, but I was
> grateful that I could get something while my CenturyLink was down. When I
> first signed up, I chose this WiFi connection...
>
> City of Minneapolis Public WiFi
>
> ...opened the web browser, got a username/password for login and ordered a
> week of service.  After a few days, I realized that I had other options like
> these:
>
> usiw_secure
> usiw_secure_S06N139T1
> USI Wireless
> usiw_secure_S01N129T1
>
> I used usiw_secure with the username/password established above, and that
> made things work a *lot* better.  I had been getting highly variable ping
> times to my office machine, lots of dropped packets, lots of stalling of VNC
> connection, but now I was getting 30 ms pings, good consistency, no dropped
> packets, smooth operation of VNC -- everything better.  Now it could be some
> confounder like the time of day, but I'm pretty convinced that the
> usiw_secure just worked tons better.  A speed test showed 1 Mbps both up and
> down.
>
> Another thing -- I tried to figure out where in my home I had the best
> reception.  So I started pinging my office machine, once per second (the USI
> WiFi router didn't respond to ping) and I walked around the house looking
> for patterns.  It seemed best toward the southwest of my house. Is there a
> better way to test signal strength?  Is there a better way to improve
> reception?
>
> Anyway, thought I'd put that out there in case it helps anyone, but I also
> wanted to hear if anyone has any ideas on how to deal better with some of
> these issues.  Thanks.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Jan 17 12:11:33 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:11:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEG=4Ov-BqhzYFpBsY=QWn4gmkRzyYys6CRCzx0rR_rtUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEG=4Ov-BqhzYFpBsY=QWn4gmkRzyYys6CRCzx0rR_rtUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50F83ED5.9030601@me.com>

If anyone here needs help setting up and finding good spots or fixing 
dead zones with their USI service please feel free to let me know. I can 
swing by, if you wish, to see what can be done. My day job involves 
doing a lot of PTP, PTPP, Mesh, AP/CPE (which is what the USI 
configuration is - CPE = customer premise equipment or your 
transceiver), etc.

Thanks,

Ryan

On 1/17/2013 11:56 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
> I used USI Wireless at my old house and was very happy with it. I had
> one of their "modems" with an external antenna, and always had strong
> signal strength. I had clear line of site to a node, however, and
> placed my antenna in a window so there was nothing obstructing the
> signal.
>
> One thing they mentioned at some point was that laptops typically are
> not transmitting as strong a signal as their stations, and this can
> lead to problems. Your laptop can receive their signal just fine, but
> sending packets is a different story, and your signal strength
> indicator doesn't show this.
>
> -Erik
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have CenturyLink service, again.  It was down for awhile and it was not
>> easy to get service when I had to deal with their call center in the
>> Philippines.  They seemed like really nice people and they spoke great
>> English, but when they ordered a service for me, it never happened. They'd
>> give me a tracking number, but the system would still have no record of my
>> order and no record of the tracking number!
>>
>> Anyway, while I had no CenturyLink, I used the USI Wireless internet system.
>> They charge $10 for one day, which is ridiculous, but they charge $18 for a
>> week and $25 for a month, or $20 for monthly recurring.
>>
>> I had huge problems with lots of disconnects and dropped packets, but I was
>> grateful that I could get something while my CenturyLink was down. When I
>> first signed up, I chose this WiFi connection...
>>
>> City of Minneapolis Public WiFi
>>
>> ...opened the web browser, got a username/password for login and ordered a
>> week of service.  After a few days, I realized that I had other options like
>> these:
>>
>> usiw_secure
>> usiw_secure_S06N139T1
>> USI Wireless
>> usiw_secure_S01N129T1
>>
>> I used usiw_secure with the username/password established above, and that
>> made things work a *lot* better.  I had been getting highly variable ping
>> times to my office machine, lots of dropped packets, lots of stalling of VNC
>> connection, but now I was getting 30 ms pings, good consistency, no dropped
>> packets, smooth operation of VNC -- everything better.  Now it could be some
>> confounder like the time of day, but I'm pretty convinced that the
>> usiw_secure just worked tons better.  A speed test showed 1 Mbps both up and
>> down.
>>
>> Another thing -- I tried to figure out where in my home I had the best
>> reception.  So I started pinging my office machine, once per second (the USI
>> WiFi router didn't respond to ping) and I walked around the house looking
>> for patterns.  It seemed best toward the southwest of my house. Is there a
>> better way to test signal strength?  Is there a better way to improve
>> reception?
>>
>> Anyway, thought I'd put that out there in case it helps anyone, but I also
>> wanted to hear if anyone has any ideas on how to deal better with some of
>> these issues.  Thanks.
>>
>> Mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 12:39:46 2013
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:39:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I had USI Wireless for a while.? The secure connection is the way to go.? The public connections are for their limited free access.

I used a laptop and monitored the signal strength to find the best location.? Never found anything strong enough to keep a good connection.

After I dropped their service, they called and highly recommended their $49 professional installation to solve my signal strength problem.? According to others I talked to, this included mounting an external antenna etc.? Those other users highly recommended their installation.


By the time USIW called, I had already switched to Comcast Business Class broadband and have had 0 problems.? Much better that USIW or Qwest DSL.? YMMV.

?
--- 
Wayne Johnson,????????????             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003????????????             | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis



>________________________________
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
>To: TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:47 AM
>Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
> 
>I have CenturyLink service, again.? It was down for awhile and it was not easy to get service when I had to deal with their call center in the Philippines.? They seemed like really nice people and they spoke great English, but when they ordered a service for me, it never happened. They'd give me a tracking number, but the system would still have no record of my order and no record of the tracking number!
>
>Anyway, while I had no CenturyLink, I used the USI Wireless internet system.? They charge $10 for one day, which is ridiculous, but they charge $18 for a week and $25 for a month, or $20 for monthly recurring.
>
>I had huge problems with lots of disconnects and dropped packets, but I was grateful that I could get something while my CenturyLink was down. When I first signed up, I chose this WiFi connection...
>
>City of Minneapolis Public WiFi
>
>...opened the web browser, got a username/password for login and ordered a week of service.? After a few days, I realized that I had other options like these:
>
>usiw_secure
>usiw_secure_S06N139T1
>USI Wireless
>usiw_secure_S01N129T1
>
>I used usiw_secure with the username/password established above, and that made things work a *lot* better.? I had been getting highly variable ping times to my office machine, lots of dropped packets, lots of stalling of VNC connection, but now I was getting 30 ms pings, good consistency, no dropped packets, smooth operation of VNC -- everything better.? Now it could be some confounder like the time of day, but I'm pretty convinced that the usiw_secure just worked tons better.? A speed test showed 1 Mbps both up and down.
>
>Another thing -- I tried to figure out where in my home I had the best reception.? So I started pinging my office machine, once per second (the USI WiFi router didn't respond to ping) and I walked around the house looking for patterns.? It seemed best toward the southwest of my house. Is there a better way to test signal strength?? Is there a better way to improve reception?
>
>Anyway, thought I'd put that out there in case it helps anyone, but I also wanted to hear if anyone has any ideas on how to deal better with some of these issues.? Thanks.
>
>Mike
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 12:56:35 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:56:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Wayne Johnson wrote:

> I had USI Wireless for a while.? The secure connection is the way to 
> go.? The public connections are for their limited free access.

I'm glad to hear a confirmation of what I thought I was seeing.  Their web 
pages didn't tell me to drop the public and switch to the secure after 
paying, but they should have told me.  It would have saved a lot of 
trouble.


> I used a laptop and monitored the signal strength to find the best 
> location.? Never found anything strong enough to keep a good connection.

How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at the 
icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a way to 
get numbers?


> After I dropped their service, they called and highly recommended their 
> $49 professional installation to solve my signal strength problem.? 
> According to others I talked to, this included mounting an external 
> antenna etc.? Those other users highly recommended their installation.

I'll bet it provides a consistent service, but I wonder how fast it is. 
Do you know anything about that?  Is it always 1 Mbps both ways?


> By the time USIW called, I had already switched to Comcast Business 
> Class broadband and have had 0 problems.? Much better that USIW or Qwest 
> DSL.? YMMV.

I dropped Century last month because they had failed to reconnect the wire 
to my house after a truck had taken it down, and I was pretty fed up with 
their bad service.  But, when I called Comcast, I wasn't at all happy with 
the guy I talked to and their price was higher for the bandwidth promised. 
With CenturyLink I'm promised 40 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up, a speakeasy.net 
speed test (Chicago) is showing 39.3 Mbps down and 15.7 Mbps up with an 
ethernet connection to the router.  They want $30/mo first 6 months, then 
$75/mo as a normal price, no contract.  I don't think Comcast could match 
that or better it.  What did you find?

They finally did get a guy out here last night, and he went to the trouble 
of raising the wire high enough in the alley that a truck will probably 
never take it down.  So I think I'm going to be happy now.

Best,
Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 13:00:41 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:00:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] x2go (versus NX, Neatx and VNCs)
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171257091.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Is anyone using x2go?  I was just reading about it:

Ubuntu discussion (2010-2011):
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1493336

Blog post (11/2010):
http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/11/show-off-ubuntu-desktop-on-cloud.html

X2go site:
http://www.x2go.org/

I'd be interested to hear about your experiences, if any.

Thanks.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 13:06:52 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:06:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] x2go (versus NX, Neatx and VNCs)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171257091.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171257091.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171301120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I intended that message for the VNC list, but I am interested in your 
opinions, too.  There are Free Software VNCs and Neatx is the Google 
version of NX under GPL2.  x2go is also GPL.


On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> Is anyone using x2go?  I was just reading about it:
>
> Ubuntu discussion (2010-2011):
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1493336
>
> Blog post (11/2010):
> http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/11/show-off-ubuntu-desktop-on-cloud.html
>
> X2go site:
> http://www.x2go.org/
>
> I'd be interested to hear about your experiences, if any.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jan 17 13:31:42 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:31:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] x2go (versus NX, Neatx and VNCs)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171301120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171257091.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171301120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301171331330.27329@dragon>

Wait, there's a VNC group?

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> I intended that message for the VNC list, but I am interested in your 
> opinions, too.  There are Free Software VNCs and Neatx is the Google version 
> of NX under GPL2.  x2go is also GPL.
>
>
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Is anyone using x2go?  I was just reading about it:
>> 
>> Ubuntu discussion (2010-2011):
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1493336
>> 
>> Blog post (11/2010):
>> http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/11/show-off-ubuntu-desktop-on-cloud.html
>> 
>> X2go site:
>> http://www.x2go.org/
>> 
>> I'd be interested to hear about your experiences, if any.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Jan 17 13:45:41 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:45:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <50F854E5.4020205@me.com>

Not with business class service... if you want no contract you get no 
frills, no deals and you pay more.

Sucks but if you move out of their service area there is no termination 
fee (a definite plus). And if you move they will just "re-up" with your 
new account.



On 1/17/2013 12:56 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> I dropped Century last month because they had failed to reconnect the 
> wire to my house after a truck had taken it down, and I was pretty fed 
> up with their bad service.  But, when I called Comcast, I wasn't at 
> all happy with the guy I talked to and their price was higher for the 
> bandwidth promised. With CenturyLink I'm promised 40 Mbps down and 20 
> Mbps up, a speakeasy.net speed test (Chicago) is showing 39.3 Mbps 
> down and 15.7 Mbps up with an ethernet connection to the router.  They 
> want $30/mo first 6 months, then $75/mo as a normal price, no 
> contract.  I don't think Comcast could match that or better it. What 
> did you find?
>
> They finally did get a guy out here last night, and he went to the 
> trouble of raising the wire high enough in the alley that a truck will 
> probably never take it down.  So I think I'm going to be happy now. 


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 17 14:02:25 2013
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:02:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1358452945.46948.YahooMailNeo@web121506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>

>To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:56 PM
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
> 
>On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Wayne Johnson wrote:
>> I used a laptop and monitored the signal strength to find the best location.? Never found anything strong enough to keep a good connection.
>
>How do you monitor signal strength?? Does that just mean looking at the icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?? Or is there a way to get numbers?
My wifi card has a utility that shows more than what Windows will show you.? It actually (as I remember) showed # Db.? 


>> After I dropped their service, they called and highly recommended their $49 professional installation to solve my signal strength problem.? According to others I talked to, this included mounting an external antenna etc.? Those other users highly recommended their installation.
>
>I'll bet it provides a consistent service, but I wonder how fast it is. Do you know anything about that?? Is it always 1 Mbps both ways?

I believe they also have faster levels (for greater price).? But with all providers, they can't guarantee anything other the maximum cap.? Like I said YMMV.? With cable, your sharing bandwidth with any of your neighbors on that wire.? With DSL, you have a private pipe up to the CO and then share whatever bandwidth that exits there.? USIW uses a mesh network which forwards your data from transmitter to transmitter until it hits the network interface.? USIW had lots of fun locating their transmitters in areas where they could see the upstream transmitter.? Some of them are hung out on street light arms in the middle of the street to see around trees.


>I dropped Century last month because they had failed to reconnect the wire to my house after a truck had taken it down, and I was pretty fed up with their bad service.? But, when I called Comcast, I wasn't at all happy with the guy I talked to and their price was higher for the bandwidth promised. With CenturyLink I'm promised 40 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up, a speakeasy.net speed test (Chicago) is showing 39.3 Mbps down and 15.7 Mbps up with an ethernet connection to the router.? They want $30/mo first 6 months, then $75/mo as a normal price, no contract.? I don't think Comcast could match that or better it.? What did you find?

I originally had been promised and I was paying for 4Gb at one point.? Apparently they found my lines couldn't handle 4Gb and snuck it down (and didn't tell me).? That's why I dropped them as a provider.

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Jan 17 14:46:29 2013
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 14:46:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1358455589.2238.41.camel@sysadmin3a>

On Thu, 2013-01-17 at 12:56 -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I had USI Wireless for a while.  The secure connection is the way to 
> > go.  The public connections are for their limited free access.
> 
> I'm glad to hear a confirmation of what I thought I was seeing.  Their web 
> pages didn't tell me to drop the public and switch to the secure after 
> paying, but they should have told me.  It would have saved a lot of 
> trouble.

Using the usiw_secure SSID is preferential for encryption/privacy
reasons as well. When you sign up for regular service and get the modem,
it will be set to associate onto usiw_secure as well.

> 
> 
> > I used a laptop and monitored the signal strength to find the best 
> > location.  Never found anything strong enough to keep a good connection.
> 
> How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at the 
> icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a way to 
> get numbers?

On my ubuntu powered laptop I use the following command "iwconfig wlan0"

It will give you some good info like signal strength in dBm (numbers),
modulation rate, and other info. I would bet there are other graphical
tools that could be used as well. I found a decent free tool for my
android phone too called "wifi analyzer"

The limitation with any of these 802.11 tests/analyzers compared to a
true spectrum analyzer is they don't really have a way to show you
non-802.11 RF noise from other things that produce radio waves in the
relevant frequencies.

> 
> 
> > After I dropped their service, they called and highly recommended their 
> > $49 professional installation to solve my signal strength problem.  
> > According to others I talked to, this included mounting an external 
> > antenna etc.  Those other users highly recommended their installation.
> 
> I'll bet it provides a consistent service, but I wonder how fast it is. 
> Do you know anything about that?  Is it always 1 Mbps both ways?

Upload is always 1 meg. Download there are 1, 3 and 6 meg options.
Typically 6meg option will require an outside mounted antenna.

> 
> 
> > By the time USIW called, I had already switched to Comcast Business 
> > Class broadband and have had 0 problems.  Much better that USIW or Qwest 
> > DSL.  YMMV.
> 
> I dropped Century last month because they had failed to reconnect the wire 
> to my house after a truck had taken it down, and I was pretty fed up with 
> their bad service.  But, when I called Comcast, I wasn't at all happy with 
> the guy I talked to and their price was higher for the bandwidth promised. 
> With CenturyLink I'm promised 40 Mbps down and 20 Mbps up, a speakeasy.net 
> speed test (Chicago) is showing 39.3 Mbps down and 15.7 Mbps up with an 
> ethernet connection to the router.  They want $30/mo first 6 months, then 
> $75/mo as a normal price, no contract.  I don't think Comcast could match 
> that or better it.  What did you find?
> 
> They finally did get a guy out here last night, and he went to the trouble 
> of raising the wire high enough in the alley that a truck will probably 
> never take it down.  So I think I'm going to be happy now.
> 
> Best,
> Mike


I wish I lived in a area where FTTH is available.
http://fiber.usinternet.com



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 16:40:49 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:40:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] x2go (versus NX, Neatx and VNCs)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301171331330.27329@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171257091.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171301120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301171331330.27329@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171639360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> Wait, there's a VNC group?

It's a distribution list that goes way back.  I joined it in about 1997.

VNC List <vnc-list at realvnc.com>

Mike

From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jan 17 18:46:16 2013
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 18:46:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:56:35PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at
> the icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a
> way to get numbers?

InSSIDer is the way to go, if you have Windows.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Beware of software written by optimists!
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 19:00:23 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:00:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:56:35PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at the 
>> icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a way to 
>> get numbers?
>
> InSSIDer is the way to go, if you have Windows.

I do have one Windows laptop -- my daughter's -- so I could use that. 
However, I just discovered Wifi Analyzer for Android, which I put on my 
Nexus 4 and my Kindle Fire Cyanogenmod.  It definitely seems to work and 
it's nice to have it on a small, portable device.

Has anyone compared Wifi Analyzer with InSSIDer?

Mike

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 19:38:39 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:38:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KUHQhZNNqBFZF8T1NwOx1Fi5_2Q1TDW0BCdtkF+w4W3UQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at the
> icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a way to get
> numbers?
>

I usually just use the icon to see how many bars.

If you want something for Linux though, you should check out kismet.

It's ncurses based, but it gives you signal strength, shows hidden SSIDs,
and lots of other fun stuff.

--
Michael
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 19:48:14 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:48:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171904500.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> However, I just discovered Wifi Analyzer for Android, which I put on my 
> Nexus 4 and my Kindle Fire Cyanogenmod.  It definitely seems to work and 
> it's nice to have it on a small, portable device.

I should mention that it shows wifi channels for all the access points. 
I didn't even know there was such a thing as a wifi channel.  There are a 
lot of nearby access points on my channel.  My clever neighbor, a computer 
pro, has a channel that is shared by no one.

Now I want to figure out how to change the channel on my router.  Maybe 
it's in the admin setup at http://192.168.0.1/.  Yep.  It was under 
Wireless settings, Radio settings.  Very simple.

After changing the channel, the Wifi Analyzer showed the shift to the new 
channel and I think it showed a higher signal strength.  Maybe it's 
actually a signal/noise ratio, so moving to an unused channel decreased 
the noise level.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 19:49:07 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:49:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUHQhZNNqBFZF8T1NwOx1Fi5_2Q1TDW0BCdtkF+w4W3UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171857430.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAFE18KUHQhZNNqBFZF8T1NwOx1Fi5_2Q1TDW0BCdtkF+w4W3UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171948390.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:

>> How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at the 
>> icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or is there a way to 
>> get numbers?
>>
>
> I usually just use the icon to see how many bars.
>
> If you want something for Linux though, you should check out kismet.
>
> It's ncurses based, but it gives you signal strength, shows hidden 
> SSIDs, and lots of other fun stuff.


Thanks.  Sounds like a good one.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 23:49:00 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:49:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:

http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4

Suggested retail:    $549.99
Instant discount:   -$300.00
Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
Free Shipping          $0.00
                      $199.99

They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how 
Google is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a 
"suggested retail" price of $550.

Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead of 
giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?

I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They say 
that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return the 
phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained 
staff, I believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning 
their discount schemes.  Just weird.

They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint 
number, killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I 
have no real need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers 
that will ring in my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, 
Google Voice will show me the message on my computer, or tablet, or 
whatever, so I'll get it.

Mike


On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
> because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged 
>> me $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
>> should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no 
>> sense. If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, 
>> how can I be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the 
>> contract supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on 
>> principal, pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for 
>> awhile to see if I really need one.
>> 
>> Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 00:01:36 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 00:01:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>

A lot of times those discounts are for new customers only, or people who 
qualify, or something like that.

"Suggested Retail" is marketing speak for "We made it up."

On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:
>
> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4
>
> Suggested retail:    $549.99
> Instant discount:   -$300.00
> Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
> Free Shipping          $0.00
>                     $199.99
>
> They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how Google 
> is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a "suggested 
> retail" price of $550.
>
> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead of 
> giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?
>
> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They say 
> that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return the 
> phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained staff, I 
> believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning their discount 
> schemes.  Just weird.
>
> They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint number, 
> killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I have no real 
> need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers that will ring in 
> my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, Google Voice will show 
> me the message on my computer, or tablet, or whatever, so I'll get it.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
>> because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>> 
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged me 
>>> $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
>>> should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no sense. 
>>> If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how can I 
>>> be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract 
>>> supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on principal, 
>>> pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see 
>>> if I really need one.
>>> 
>>> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 00:24:43 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 00:24:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180020360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

That price seems to be for anyone who goes to that web page.  I am a new 
customer, switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, and I am signing a 2-year 
contract.  I can cancel within 14 days, so I will do that if they don't 
give me my $300.  Then I'll wait, and wait, and someday I'll get 
something, probably.  I'd rather live without a cell phone than be treated 
like that.

Mike


On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> A lot of times those discounts are for new customers only, or people who 
> qualify, or something like that.
>
> "Suggested Retail" is marketing speak for "We made it up."
>
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:
>> 
>> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4
>> 
>> Suggested retail:    $549.99
>> Instant discount:   -$300.00
>> Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
>> Free Shipping          $0.00
>>                     $199.99
>> 
>> They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how 
>> Google is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a 
>> "suggested retail" price of $550.
>> 
>> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead of 
>> giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?
>> 
>> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They say 
>> that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return the 
>> phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained staff, 
>> I believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning their 
>> discount schemes.  Just weird.
>> 
>> They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint 
>> number, killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I 
>> have no real need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers that 
>> will ring in my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, Google 
>> Voice will show me the message on my computer, or tablet, or whatever, so 
>> I'll get it.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>> 
>>> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
>>> because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged 
>>>> me $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
>>>> should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no sense. 
>>>> If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how can I 
>>>> be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract 
>>>> supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on principal, 
>>>> pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see 
>>>> if I really need one.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 00:29:06 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 00:29:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180020360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180020360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180028520.28733@dragon>

I'd go to the store, with that text in hand, and complain.

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> That price seems to be for anyone who goes to that web page.  I am a new 
> customer, switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, and I am signing a 2-year 
> contract.  I can cancel within 14 days, so I will do that if they don't give 
> me my $300.  Then I'll wait, and wait, and someday I'll get something, 
> probably.  I'd rather live without a cell phone than be treated like that.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> A lot of times those discounts are for new customers only, or people who 
>> qualify, or something like that.
>> 
>> "Suggested Retail" is marketing speak for "We made it up."
>> 
>> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:
>>> 
>>> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4
>>> 
>>> Suggested retail:    $549.99
>>> Instant discount:   -$300.00
>>> Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
>>> Free Shipping          $0.00
>>>                     $199.99
>>> 
>>> They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how 
>>> Google is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a 
>>> "suggested retail" price of $550.
>>> 
>>> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead of 
>>> giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?
>>> 
>>> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They say 
>>> that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return the 
>>> phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained 
>>> staff, I believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning 
>>> their discount schemes.  Just weird.
>>> 
>>> They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint 
>>> number, killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I 
>>> have no real need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers 
>>> that will ring in my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, 
>>> Google Voice will show me the message on my computer, or tablet, or 
>>> whatever, so I'll get it.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
>>>> because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged 
>>>>> me $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
>>>>> should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no 
>>>>> sense. If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, 
>>>>> how can I be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the 
>>>>> contract supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on 
>>>>> principal, pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for 
>>>>> awhile to see if I really need one.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 00:54:14 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 00:54:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180028520.28733@dragon>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180020360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180028520.28733@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180052270.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I had an email address from the sales worker in the store.  I wrote just 
now to tell her that Google has a price of $350, the T-mobile price on the 
web is $250, and they charged me $550.  I suggest that this was an error 
and they should give me the $300 discount.  I'll let you know what happens 
next.

Mike


On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> I'd go to the store, with that text in hand, and complain.
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> That price seems to be for anyone who goes to that web page.  I am a new 
>> customer, switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, and I am signing a 2-year 
>> contract.  I can cancel within 14 days, so I will do that if they don't 
>> give me my $300.  Then I'll wait, and wait, and someday I'll get something, 
>> probably.  I'd rather live without a cell phone than be treated like that.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>> 
>>> A lot of times those discounts are for new customers only, or people who 
>>> qualify, or something like that.
>>> 
>>> "Suggested Retail" is marketing speak for "We made it up."
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4
>>>> 
>>>> Suggested retail:    $549.99
>>>> Instant discount:   -$300.00
>>>> Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
>>>> Free Shipping          $0.00
>>>>                     $199.99
>>>> 
>>>> They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how 
>>>> Google is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a 
>>>> "suggested retail" price of $550.
>>>> 
>>>> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead 
>>>> of giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?
>>>> 
>>>> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They 
>>>> say that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return 
>>>> the phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained 
>>>> staff, I believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning 
>>>> their discount schemes.  Just weird.
>>>> 
>>>> They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint 
>>>> number, killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I 
>>>> have no real need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers 
>>>> that will ring in my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, 
>>>> Google Voice will show me the message on my computer, or tablet, or 
>>>> whatever, so I'll get it.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for that 
>>>>> because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile charged 
>>>>>> me $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I probably 
>>>>>> should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no 
>>>>>> sense. If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, 
>>>>>> how can I be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the 
>>>>>> contract supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on 
>>>>>> principal, pay their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for 
>>>>>> awhile to see if I really need one.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mike
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 08:47:13 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:47:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180052270.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180000480.28733@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180020360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301180028520.28733@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301180052270.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO28EYdkF9GFJqvbRmUzZRk9QaW2K2SrbAEu5JdzC40sxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'd encourage you to escalate rather than all of the waiting you're
suggesting. The retail sales people are about volume of sales and less
concerned with making you happy, whereas managers are usually willing
to go the extra mile if it means you won't cancel the two year
contract during the 14 day period.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I had an email address from the sales worker in the store.  I wrote just now
> to tell her that Google has a price of $350, the T-mobile price on the web
> is $250, and they charged me $550.  I suggest that this was an error and
> they should give me the $300 discount.  I'll let you know what happens next.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>
>> I'd go to the store, with that text in hand, and complain.
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>>> That price seems to be for anyone who goes to that web page.  I am a new
>>> customer, switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, and I am signing a 2-year
>>> contract.  I can cancel within 14 days, so I will do that if they don't give
>>> me my $300.  Then I'll wait, and wait, and someday I'll get something,
>>> probably.  I'd rather live without a cell phone than be treated like that.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>>>
>>>> A lot of times those discounts are for new customers only, or people who
>>>> qualify, or something like that.
>>>>
>>>> "Suggested Retail" is marketing speak for "We made it up."
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 17 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I was just looking at their web site.  Check this out:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggested retail:    $549.99
>>>>> Instant discount:   -$300.00
>>>>> Mail-in rebate card: -$50.00
>>>>> Free Shipping          $0.00
>>>>>                     $199.99
>>>>>
>>>>> They did give me the $50 rebate card.  But it's hard to understand how
>>>>> Google is promising to sell it unlocked for $350, but T-Mobile has a
>>>>> "suggested retail" price of $550.
>>>>>
>>>>> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the $300 instead
>>>>> of giving me the instant discount.  Is it just incompetence?
>>>>>
>>>>> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the phone.  They
>>>>> say that the price I was charged is correct.  I told them I would return the
>>>>> phone.  They said OK.  The problem is incompetent and poorly-trained staff,
>>>>> I believe, and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning their
>>>>> discount schemes.  Just weird.
>>>>>
>>>>> They might feel like they have me because I transferred my old Sprint
>>>>> number, killed my Sprint account and now I'll have no cell phone.  But I
>>>>> have no real need for a cell phone.  I mostly use Google Voice numbers that
>>>>> will ring in my home or office, so I get calls, and if I miss them, Google
>>>>> Voice will show me the message on my computer, or tablet, or whatever, so
>>>>> I'll get it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would definitely go over to t-mobile and give them some crap for
>>>>>> that because, yeah, that makes ZERO sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I ended up buying the Nexus 4 today, but it looks like T-Mobile
>>>>>>> charged me $500 for it even though I was signing a 2-year contract.  I
>>>>>>> probably should have said "no" to that "deal," which in retrospect makes no
>>>>>>> sense. If Google sells an unlocked Nexus 4 with 16GB memory for $350, how
>>>>>>> can I be paying $500 *and* signing a 2-year contract?  Isn't the contract
>>>>>>> supposed to bring the price down?  I might just return it, on principal, pay
>>>>>>> their $50 restocking fee, and live without a phone for awhile to see if I
>>>>>>> really need one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 13:20:54 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:20:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>

Good afternoon,

I was on a promo for Comcast (30 MB down, known as Blast), and called
to get service downgraded since my promo ended and the price nearly
doubled. The guy wanted to charge me a fee to downgrade (I have no
contracts with them)- I pushed back but he wouldn't wave it so I plan
on speaking to a manager later. I have been putting off shopping for
Internet providers since I last tried Qwest DSL in 2008 (it was no
where near the speed they advertised when I was living near downtown,
so I stayed with Comcast). The audacity for Comcast to charge for
downgrading service, combined with their already high prices has
pumped some motivation into me to look at broadband providers again.

Is anyone using Century Link or USI Wireless? I don't believe we have
any other options in Minneapolis for broadband (Clear doesn't appear
to be an option for my usage). Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of
35W for USI fiber to be option. I don't do video streaming (aside from
short news stories) but may pick this up again in the future at some
point.  I occasionally work from home over VPN, which makes me a
little nervous with USI and the reviews I've read. At our house we
mostly do a lot of intensive web browsing and publishing, ssh (inbound
and outbound), and a small amount of RDP traffic outbound, light
gaming (Steam), and occasional large downloads (mostly Linux iso's /
packages, and Steam games). I do use CrashPlan in Linux for frequent
backups, so anything capped low (like Clear 4G) could present a
problem- no worry about longer upload backup times, it runs as a
service in the background and I can throttle it.

How has USI been recently? Is it worth even trying? I'm in south
Minneapolis and the nearest node is two blocks away, which is another
potential drawback. Does anyone have Century Link that could provide
some feedback about it?

Someone also mentioned Clear 4G recently. My concern with that (and
the other providers) is capping bandwidth, which everyone does to some
extent, but Clear seems really low (40 GB), which might be a problem
with CrashPlan.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions / feedback.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com

From droidjd at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 13:39:06 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:39:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>

I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
can get is 1.5Meg.  Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
available for you.

Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
Comcast, you should let me know! :-)  I attempted it the other day
with no success, unfortunately.

Good luck with your search!

-Andrew


On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good afternoon,
>
> I was on a promo for Comcast (30 MB down, known as Blast), and called
> to get service downgraded since my promo ended and the price nearly
> doubled. The guy wanted to charge me a fee to downgrade (I have no
> contracts with them)- I pushed back but he wouldn't wave it so I plan
> on speaking to a manager later. I have been putting off shopping for
> Internet providers since I last tried Qwest DSL in 2008 (it was no
> where near the speed they advertised when I was living near downtown,
> so I stayed with Comcast). The audacity for Comcast to charge for
> downgrading service, combined with their already high prices has
> pumped some motivation into me to look at broadband providers again.
>
> Is anyone using Century Link or USI Wireless? I don't believe we have
> any other options in Minneapolis for broadband (Clear doesn't appear
> to be an option for my usage). Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of
> 35W for USI fiber to be option. I don't do video streaming (aside from
> short news stories) but may pick this up again in the future at some
> point.  I occasionally work from home over VPN, which makes me a
> little nervous with USI and the reviews I've read. At our house we
> mostly do a lot of intensive web browsing and publishing, ssh (inbound
> and outbound), and a small amount of RDP traffic outbound, light
> gaming (Steam), and occasional large downloads (mostly Linux iso's /
> packages, and Steam games). I do use CrashPlan in Linux for frequent
> backups, so anything capped low (like Clear 4G) could present a
> problem- no worry about longer upload backup times, it runs as a
> service in the background and I can throttle it.
>
> How has USI been recently? Is it worth even trying? I'm in south
> Minneapolis and the nearest node is two blocks away, which is another
> potential drawback. Does anyone have Century Link that could provide
> some feedback about it?
>
> Someone also mentioned Clear 4G recently. My concern with that (and
> the other providers) is capping bandwidth, which everyone does to some
> extent, but Clear seems really low (40 GB), which might be a problem
> with CrashPlan.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions / feedback.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 13:46:35 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:46:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re:  Ubuntu Phone
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>

From: Mike Miller

> That price seems to be for anyone who goes to that web page.  I am a new
> customer, switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, and I am signing a 2-year
> contract.  I can cancel within 14 days, so I will do that if they don't
> give me my $300.  Then I'll wait, and wait, and someday I'll get
> something, probably.  I'd rather live without a cell phone than be treated
> like that.

There are tracfones.
http://www.tracfone.com/

I think mine is around $12/month.  Dr. Laura
http://www.drlaura.com -- turned me on to them
years ago.


-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
-------------- next part --------------
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 14:11:25 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:11:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Brian Wood wrote:

> There are tracfones.
> http://www.tracfone.com/
> I think mine is around $12/month.? Dr. Laura
> http://www.drlaura.com -- turned me on to them

Wow. Dr. Laura. Giving tech advice. My mind is officially blown.

Tracfone is not an alternative for us heavy data users. It's fine for 
people who think of a cellphone as a, well, phone. To me, it's not. It's a 
mobile computer which fits in my pocket and has a constant internet 
connection. It's the friggin hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. It's the 
kind of decide that's been the realm of fantasy since I was a kid. I very, 
very, VERY rarely make phone calls on it.

Mike was complaining about the service from T-Mobile - they clearly 
overcharged him for a phone that Google were selling directly for $350, 
and ignoring their OWN advertisement. He wasn't complaiing about the 
quality of the experience he was having with the device itself, and for 
this kind of device you need unlimited -- and fast -- data.

Now, if you want an alternative to T-Mobile (or other providers) and you 
have an unlocked GSM phone (which I do, and which a Nexus 4 should be 
especially if you get it directly from Google) I'd recommend Simple 
Mobile. They're a pay-as-you-go no-contract cellular provider, and for $50 
a month you get unlimited voice and data. They just sell you the SIM card, 
and you refill it how ever often you want to. For us heavy data users, 
that's a fantastic deal.

Oh they're happy to sell you a phone too if you need one.


--

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 15:02:22 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:02:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3nLJ_WbNFM6veJSE8R6T0QiP1eCmzTkzmKB6RLCY6JLw@mail.gmail.com>

Comcast historically doesn't bend much, but occasionally you get a
caring customer service rep or manager who can wiggle a little bit of
consumer respect ;-) The fee thing is new to me. What infuriates me is
that I don't want to pay to decrease service- it's not much granted,
more the principal of it.

Also, I have of all of Century Link's DSL tiers available where I am
at. The phone line to the modem may need to be upgraded, which is
something I could do relatively easily.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
> I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
> unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
> can get is 1.5Meg.  Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
> available for you.
>
> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
> ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
> Comcast, you should let me know! :-)  I attempted it the other day
> with no success, unfortunately.
>
> Good luck with your search!
>
> -Andrew
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good afternoon,
>>
>> I was on a promo for Comcast (30 MB down, known as Blast), and called
>> to get service downgraded since my promo ended and the price nearly
>> doubled. The guy wanted to charge me a fee to downgrade (I have no
>> contracts with them)- I pushed back but he wouldn't wave it so I plan
>> on speaking to a manager later. I have been putting off shopping for
>> Internet providers since I last tried Qwest DSL in 2008 (it was no
>> where near the speed they advertised when I was living near downtown,
>> so I stayed with Comcast). The audacity for Comcast to charge for
>> downgrading service, combined with their already high prices has
>> pumped some motivation into me to look at broadband providers again.
>>
>> Is anyone using Century Link or USI Wireless? I don't believe we have
>> any other options in Minneapolis for broadband (Clear doesn't appear
>> to be an option for my usage). Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of
>> 35W for USI fiber to be option. I don't do video streaming (aside from
>> short news stories) but may pick this up again in the future at some
>> point.  I occasionally work from home over VPN, which makes me a
>> little nervous with USI and the reviews I've read. At our house we
>> mostly do a lot of intensive web browsing and publishing, ssh (inbound
>> and outbound), and a small amount of RDP traffic outbound, light
>> gaming (Steam), and occasional large downloads (mostly Linux iso's /
>> packages, and Steam games). I do use CrashPlan in Linux for frequent
>> backups, so anything capped low (like Clear 4G) could present a
>> problem- no worry about longer upload backup times, it runs as a
>> service in the background and I can throttle it.
>>
>> How has USI been recently? Is it worth even trying? I'm in south
>> Minneapolis and the nearest node is two blocks away, which is another
>> potential drawback. Does anyone have Century Link that could provide
>> some feedback about it?
>>
>> Someone also mentioned Clear 4G recently. My concern with that (and
>> the other providers) is capping bandwidth, which everyone does to some
>> extent, but Clear seems really low (40 GB), which might be a problem
>> with CrashPlan.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any suggestions / feedback.
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy MountainJohnson
>> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tlunde at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 16:01:07 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:01:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO3nLJ_WbNFM6veJSE8R6T0QiP1eCmzTkzmKB6RLCY6JLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3nLJ_WbNFM6veJSE8R6T0QiP1eCmzTkzmKB6RLCY6JLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CC85EB7-223E-4B94-A73B-2886ED27A3EC@gmail.com>

I have CenturyLink & probably live near you, since I have all the tiers & am in south Minneapolis & on the same side of 35W. 

The CO is at 24th Ave & 33rd st. I'm about 3 blocks from there & am very happy with the speed. 

I do have to power cycle their modem (it was offered to buy or rent, so I bought it) every few weeks. If I don't, the connection will degrade or drop. I've been temped to use a UPS & cron to automate it but haven't bothered. Otis reliable & fast. 

I used to have 40/20 & have since dropped to 7/5 (down/up) as I sensed that I was mostly bound by the remote server rather than the local connection. 

I wish I had a static address but dyndns is good enough. 

Thomas


On Jan 18, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Comcast historically doesn't bend much, but occasionally you get a
> caring customer service rep or manager who can wiggle a little bit of
> consumer respect ;-) The fee thing is new to me. What infuriates me is
> that I don't want to pay to decrease service- it's not much granted,
> more the principal of it.
> 
> Also, I have of all of Century Link's DSL tiers available where I am
> at. The phone line to the modem may need to be upgraded, which is
> something I could do relatively easily.
> 
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
>> unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
>> can get is 1.5Meg.  Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
>> available for you.
>> 
>> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
>> ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
>> Comcast, you should let me know! :-)  I attempted it the other day
>> with no success, unfortunately.
>> 
>> Good luck with your search!
>> 
>> -Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
>> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Good afternoon,
>>> 
>>> I was on a promo for Comcast (30 MB down, known as Blast), and called
>>> to get service downgraded since my promo ended and the price nearly
>>> doubled. The guy wanted to charge me a fee to downgrade (I have no
>>> contracts with them)- I pushed back but he wouldn't wave it so I plan
>>> on speaking to a manager later. I have been putting off shopping for
>>> Internet providers since I last tried Qwest DSL in 2008 (it was no
>>> where near the speed they advertised when I was living near downtown,
>>> so I stayed with Comcast). The audacity for Comcast to charge for
>>> downgrading service, combined with their already high prices has
>>> pumped some motivation into me to look at broadband providers again.
>>> 
>>> Is anyone using Century Link or USI Wireless? I don't believe we have
>>> any other options in Minneapolis for broadband (Clear doesn't appear
>>> to be an option for my usage). Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of
>>> 35W for USI fiber to be option. I don't do video streaming (aside from
>>> short news stories) but may pick this up again in the future at some
>>> point.  I occasionally work from home over VPN, which makes me a
>>> little nervous with USI and the reviews I've read. At our house we
>>> mostly do a lot of intensive web browsing and publishing, ssh (inbound
>>> and outbound), and a small amount of RDP traffic outbound, light
>>> gaming (Steam), and occasional large downloads (mostly Linux iso's /
>>> packages, and Steam games). I do use CrashPlan in Linux for frequent
>>> backups, so anything capped low (like Clear 4G) could present a
>>> problem- no worry about longer upload backup times, it runs as a
>>> service in the background and I can throttle it.
>>> 
>>> How has USI been recently? Is it worth even trying? I'm in south
>>> Minneapolis and the nearest node is two blocks away, which is another
>>> potential drawback. Does anyone have Century Link that could provide
>>> some feedback about it?
>>> 
>>> Someone also mentioned Clear 4G recently. My concern with that (and
>>> the other providers) is capping bandwidth, which everyone does to some
>>> extent, but Clear seems really low (40 GB), which might be a problem
>>> with CrashPlan.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance for any suggestions / feedback.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Jeremy MountainJohnson
>>> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 16:38:29 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:38:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] using USI Wireless in Minneapolis
In-Reply-To: <20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171124580.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu><1358447986.17133.YahooMailNeo@web121503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301171246090.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20130118004615.GL32332@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <34F2406B0A1347AD9C9A776425D9D608@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:56:35PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> > How do you monitor signal strength?  Does that just mean looking at
> > the icon to see how many bars or wave lines you have?  Or
> is there a
> > way to get numbers?
>
> InSSIDer is the way to go, if you have Windows.

Had not heard of that one.  Will look.

Netstumbler is a good "old standby" and gives all the techie data  dB, SNR,
etc


Chuck



From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 16:59:25 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:59:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <006b5c61cd88aead085607541c67cc36.squirrel@ron-l-j.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301140353030.13884@dragon><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141649360.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141743470.16214@dragon><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301141839350.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301141843551.16214@dragon><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301160210120.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301160224510.21987@dragon>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301172305150.29771@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <46075EA6171949668F2626BDD70F560B@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 11:49 PM
>
> Harder still to understand is how they would charge me the
> $300 instead of giving me the instant discount.  Is it just
> incompetence?

Worse: I think they are truly crooks.  They would not allow a friend to
upgrade in a highly advertized upgrade plan.  Said that would invoke an
early termination fee for her existing nearly expired plan in order to
select a more expensive phone and plan.  YUKKK!   Sprint paid about half
that fee when she switched carriers, she got a free Android phone, far
better plan terms, and lower monthly rate.  Essentially the same for two
other friends.

> I called T-Mobile and talked to a rep -- just got off the
> phone.  They say that the price I was charged is correct.  I
> told them I would return the phone.  They said OK.  The
> problem is incompetent and poorly-trained staff, I believe,
> and probably a really crazy and foolish team planning their
> discount schemes.  Just weird.

100% of my personal friends who had or have T-Mobile have been screwed one
way or another... Data limits, time limits, upgrade limits, holes in
coverage, etc.  AT&T isn't much better.

Sprint's totally unlimited plan with unlimited any cell to any cell is good
for me, and there's still a loophole that permits use as a PC internet
connection.. Unlimited and unrecorded, but not supported, so high usage of
the loophole might get noticed.  Verizon (same company now) may be the same.
I have low prime-time land line minutes to get lowest rate, but they go
unlimited at 7pm or weekends, etc  Sprint is very generous at giving
employer discounts on the monthly bill (25% typ) even if you haven't worked
for that company in ten years..

Be sure to compares plan specs and discount possibilities very carefully!


Chuck




From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 17:04:29 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:04:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
Message-ID: <482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 2:11 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>

> Mike was complaining about the service from T-Mobile - they
> clearly overcharged him for a phone that Google were selling
> directly for $350, and ignoring their OWN advertisement. He
> wasn't complaiing about the quality of the experience he was
> having with the device itself, and for this kind of device
> you need unlimited -- and fast -- data.

I've used Sprint's policy to allow a subscriber to provide his own
compatible phone from anywhere, and bought used phones off ebay.  Just phone
in the the new hardware's ID number and it's the one on the plan within
about 1/2 hour on the national net.  Sprint has no limit on such changes per
day or whatever.  My substitutions have always been in "my plan" even when
different brands of hardware.  Mike might be able to get aphone from
wherever and just activate it.


Chuck



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 17:38:57 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:38:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:


> I've used Sprint's policy to allow a subscriber to provide his own
> compatible phone from anywhere,

"Compatible" being the keyword here. You can only use Sprint phones. The 
nice thing about GSM is you can move move to any other GSM provider.

The sad thing is only two of the US providers use GSM...


--

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 19:01:52 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:01:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
Message-ID: <FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 5:39 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>
> > I've used Sprint's policy to allow a subscriber to provide his own
> > compatible phone from anywhere,
>
> "Compatible" being the keyword here. You can only use Sprint
> phones. The nice thing about GSM is you can move move to any
> other GSM provider.

No, it's the spec that must be compatible, not just the brand.  There are
other brands of CDMA spec phones.  There are some conditions of
compatibility for each system to swap carriers, according to eBay ads.

The GSM phone I had was the worst service and hardware I ever had.  Don't
miss it.
  T-mobile is a really bad provider, with various limits and extra charges,
and "screw the customer" plans.  AT&T isn't much better.

Ref:  Five of the top seven carriers in the U.S. use CDMA: Verizon Wireless,
Sprint, MetroPCS, Cricket, and U.S. Cellular.
         AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM.
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407896,00.asp>



> The sad thing is only two of the US providers use GSM...

The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant comparison,
IMHO.
We speak English here also: Esperanto never got major market share.  Some
choices are just practical, regardless of other opinions.


Chuck



From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 19:19:39 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:19:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjt62NvYOViNfB1Jh48bcQFuMtyXXBafgv_1R-DsmmujYA@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew Dahl:

> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase
> (same promotion that ended even) -- If you do end up
> being able to successfully haggle with Comcast,
> you should let me know! :-) I attempted it the other day
> with no success, unfortunately
Has anyone been able to get Comcast to extend their
promotions?  They have one for 6 months that I'd
take if they made it 9 months.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Fri Jan 18 20:11:57 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 20:11:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjt62NvYOViNfB1Jh48bcQFuMtyXXBafgv_1R-DsmmujYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjt62NvYOViNfB1Jh48bcQFuMtyXXBafgv_1R-DsmmujYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KXjsc6Q09_prpV4RB9obZ+g=qrrsG5Zy+cxR5p-EUhMPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone been able to get Comcast to extend their
> promotions?
>

I did once, sort of.

When I signed up, there was a 6 month offer. They didn't show up on the day
they were scheduled to, so I got on their chat support to complain and they
said they would extend their offer to 1 year for the inconvenience.

After 6 months my bill went up, and I had to call and say "hey, what about
my 1 year?". At first they said they never would've offered such a thing,
then they reviewed their chat logs, said I was correct, and gave me the 12
months on the promotion.

I know Comcast gets a lot of complaints, but they've been pretty good to me
here in Fridley (minus the setup issue mentioned above).  I check every
months or so, and the only real alternative is DSL, and that ends up being
more expensive for similar packages.
--
Michael
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From tclug at beitsahour.net  Fri Jan 18 21:02:50 2013
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:02:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xas3=1dz4qYDT9t5MexWFiU_cKOE8zBz8n_uabPeKp38yQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
> unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
> can get is 1.5Meg.  Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
> available for you.
>
> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
> ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
> Comcast, you should let me know! :-)  I attempted it the other day
> with no success, unfortunately.

that sounds legally questionable to me, even if such a fee was
disclosed but IANAL. Call and give them the choice of downgrading the
service or canceling the service altogether, of course that means that
you have to actually cancel when it comes to it, but i have a feeling
you will get a call from the service retention department very soon
afterwards.

Back in the Qworst days the trick to making them not suck was invoking
the PUC, the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission, which does monitor
and apparently fine the utilities for infractions. You can also call
the State Attorney Generals' office to make a complaint. Mentioning
either of these options should make them more cooperative.

That said, i have been with USWest/Qwest/CenturyLink for close to ten
years now, some ups and some downs... mostly depending on service
area. i have the 7Meg service with Real-Time as my ISP and i have not
had problems since moving to this house. unfortunately i cannot get
the faster ADSL+ service without ditching Real-Time.

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 21:10:05 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:10:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:

> No, it's the spec that must be compatible, not just the brand.  There are
> other brands of CDMA spec phones.

Phones belonging to one network in the US are not, are 100% NOT compatible 
with other providers. You CANNOT switch a phone from Sprint to Verizon for 
love nor money. Now perhaps there are phones that work on multiple 
systems, but this is not the norm.

However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between AT&T and 
T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are readily available, 
because...

> The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant comparison,
> IMHO.

But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses GSM. The US 
and Japan are rare exceptions.

This is why unlocked GSM phones are standard and readily available. I can 
take my phone and use it in practically any other county using a local SIM 
card. This is how cellphones work just about everywhere in the world - you 
buy a phone and you can take it with you between providers because they 
all use the same (global) standard. In the US, carriers tend to subsidise 
the phones, and therefor lock them to their own serivce. Even if the 
systems are compatible it's a pain to transfer over. Though GSM makes this 
significantly easier.



--

From tclug at beitsahour.net  Fri Jan 18 21:15:44 2013
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:15:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
In-Reply-To: <7CC85EB7-223E-4B94-A73B-2886ED27A3EC@gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO3u_HSEfaX2e5UNL1ZZig6uL9ahKPifnnTo3siH=qr2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzzvMDjs7L0sd0hW2K5XZfsV5Y-gJOTDQ5y_Z=3ZBCz+w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO3nLJ_WbNFM6veJSE8R6T0QiP1eCmzTkzmKB6RLCY6JLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<7CC85EB7-223E-4B94-A73B-2886ED27A3EC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xat7NbOBsqA=Tu8Zz-kHjQBnK6=mWs6sj1zABO_OCyB8Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have CenturyLink & probably live near you, since I have all the tiers & am in south Minneapolis & on the same side of 35W.
>
> The CO is at 24th Ave & 33rd st. I'm about 3 blocks from there & am very happy with the speed.
>
> I do have to power cycle their modem (it was offered to buy or rent, so I bought it) every few weeks. If I don't, the connection will degrade or drop. I've been temped to use a UPS & cron to automate it but haven't bothered. Otis reliable & fast.

The problem is likely with the modem, not with the service. Offloading
PPPoE to your firewall should perform much better.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 21:59:50 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:59:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
Message-ID: <7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 9:10 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between
> AT&T and T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are
> readily available, because...
>
> > The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant
> > comparison, IMHO.
>
> But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses
> GSM. The US and Japan are rare exceptions.

I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
especially now.  I can get good used CDMA phones easily.  Had only terribly
bad experiences from carriers using GSM, so try to avoid them, and don't
need the minority GSM from a really bad provider.  My VOIP provider software
works from a computer anywhere in the world when I have an internet
connection, and is the same as my home phone.  My CDMA works in many places
and via WiFi in others.  Don't need GSM headaches again.

Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for everybody
else.


Chuck





From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 18 22:16:44 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:16:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:

> I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
...
> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for everybody
> else.

Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide. Most US 
carriers never bothered upgrading their infrastructure, although they ARE 
working on it. And when they switch, you'll be the one who has to change 
phones.

Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people fairly 
horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one. Charging for 
incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also something that doesn't happen 
other places.

I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm not at all 
trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere in the conversation was 
anything like that mentioned. But when you say GSM is the minority and 
that you can switch CDMA phones between providers, sorry but that's just 
not true.


--

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 18 23:02:42 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:02:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
Message-ID: <5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of
> the world,
> ...
> > Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
> > everybody else.
>
> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>
> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
> something that doesn't happen other places.
>
> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.

The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT defines
a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
doesn't matter much for citizens and services here.  That's all I stated
about majority.

Nuf sed.  Enjoy your whatever.


Chuck




From kenlynes at usa.net  Sat Jan 19 21:26:16 2013
From: kenlynes at usa.net (Kenneth Lynes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 21:26:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
Message-ID: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20130119/474ef4ee/attachment.html>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Jan 19 22:50:15 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 22:50:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
In-Reply-To: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
References: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301192249450.25814@dragon>

On Sat, 19 Jan 2013, Kenneth Lynes wrote:

> Well, Chuck I agree with you.

I think technically you're agreeing with me (:



--

From kenlynes at usa.net  Sun Jan 20 08:53:30 2013
From: kenlynes at usa.net (Kenneth Lynes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 08:53:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
Message-ID: <853RaTo1E1216S04.1358693610@web04.cms.usa.net>

I am re-sending this in reply to Chuck's observations about phones. I have
tried to simply make a reply before but now I sent a new message in hopes it
will go through. It seems that when I reply to the message like I would
usually do, it goes back as some sort of html and I do not have that checked
here in the reply. Perhaps someone can help me so I can comment. Gosh I really
didn't think I was that computer illiterate!
 
 I have been unsuccessful in trying to state something here. I wonder what I
am doing wrong. Being a bit inept at this sort of thing I assume th at when it
says in my subject line that I am replying to tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue
35 that it is enough.
 I want to respond to Chuck's statements  and will do so now
 
 Well, Chuck I agree with you. I think we in the USA have been getting screwed
over by the various cell phone providers for years. I went to Germany in 2005
and had an eye-opening experience. My friend there told me that  ALL incoming
calls on a cell phone are paid for by the caller with no exceptions. It costs
a lot to make those calls and consequently they get virtually NO spam calls or
calls from charities or people trying to sell them windows for their houses. I
thought that it was a great concept for the caller to pay for the call and too
bad we don t do that as well.
 My experience with cell  phones over-seas was that I knew my own phone from
the USA would not work there at all and I was a bit confused by trying to use
the phone system there as I was really unfamiliar with the system. Perhaps
next time I am there, but I still wont bring my own phone. We are totally
incompatible with their systems I think.
 You talk about the GSM phones and I think you are correct that most of the
rest  of the world uses that system. Why don't we also? So that our phone
carriers can have their way with us and bend us over as much as they want!
Competition is a myth really. I come from a time (1950's) when all local calls
were free within my area code and I didn't even know anyone outside of it. We
never had to figure out what a area code was unless we wanted to call out of
state to some relative or were in the military and making a call home and then
had to find out what our local area code was while sitting at a pay phone in
NYC. LOL
 
 I also wanted to  comment once about USI Wireless. I have used them as a way
cheaper and better alternative to cable in Mpls and Quest or whatever they
call themselves now. I am 73 and dropped my land line over 5  years ago. I had
DSL which was not too bad when I first had it with USFamily Net but got worse
when  I moved over to Qwest at the same address and the same physical line
being used. I went to USI because it was cheaper and no contract required. If
I would only save up a bit I could save by paying by the year and get my
service for about $18.95/mo instead of $24.95. I will try to do it this year.
 I have had few issues since they installed an outside antenna for me as I am
blessed with trees and high houses on all sides of me. It is rarely down now
since they upgraded things about 10 months ago.
 It can be an issue if you have a lot of trees or obstacles, so keep that in
mind if you are considering it.
 
 Ken


From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Jan 20 10:22:33 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:22:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
In-Reply-To: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
References: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO1OYa35m1DBGLggMg4ShFKLH6PENqc_ueO7a+4ps_fk-w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Ken. I'll try prepay option and see how the VPN works with them.

The more I like about CenturyLink the more I want to either go with
USI or stay with Comcast (would be unfortunate).

Thanks to everyone else for the input on ISPs- this list is always
quick and full of opinions :-)

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Kenneth Lynes <kenlynes at usa.net> wrote:
>
> I have been unsuccessful in trying to state something here. I wonder what I
> am doing wrong. Being a bit inept at this sort of thing I assume that when
> it says in my subject line that I am replying to tclug-list Digest, Vol 97,
> Issue 35 that it is enough.
> I want to respond to Chuck's statements and will do so now
>
> Well, Chuck I agree with you. I think we in the USA have been getting
> screwed over by the various cell phone providers for years. I went to
> Germany in 2005 and had an eye-opening experience. My friend there told me
> that ALL incoming calls on a cell phone are paid for by the caller with no
> exceptions. It costs a lot to make those calls and consequently they get
> virtually NO spam calls or calls from charities or people trying to sell
> them windows for their houses. I thought that it was a great concept for the
> caller to pay for the call and too bad we dont do that as well.
> My experience with cell phones over-seas was that I knew my own phone from
> the USA would not work there at all and I was a bit confused by trying to
> use the phone system there as I was really unfamiliar with the system.
> Perhaps next time I am there, but I still wont bring my own phone. We are
> totally incompatible with their systems I think.
> You talk about the GSM phones and I think you are correct that most of the
> rest of the world uses that system. Why dont we also? So that our phone
> carriers can have their way with us and bend us over as much as they want.
> Competition is a myth really. I come from a time (1950's) when all local
> calls were free within my area code and I didnt even know anyone outside of
> it. We never had to figure out what a area code was unless we wanted to call
> out of state to some relative or were in the military and making a call home
> and then had to find out what our local area code was while sitting at a pay
> phone in NYC. LOL
>
> I also wanted to comment once about USI Wireless. I have used them as a way
> cheaper and better alternative to cable in Mpls and Quest or whatever they
> call themselves now. I am 73 and dropped my land line over 5 years ago. I
> had DSL which was not too bad when I first had it with USFamily Net but got
> worse when I moved over to Qwest at the same address and the same physical
> line used. I went to USI because it was cheaper and no contract required. If
> I would only save up a bit I could save by paying by the year and get my
> service for about $18.95/mo instead of $24.95. I will try to do it this
> year.
> I have had few issues since they installed an outside antenna for me as I am
> blessed with trees and high houses on all sides of me. It is rarely down now
> since they upgraded things about 10 months ago.
> It can be an issue if you have a lot of trees or obstacles, so keep that in
> mind if you are considering it.
>
> Ken
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:00:21 PM CST
> From: tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
>
>
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink? (Munir Nassar)
> 2. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Yaron)
> 3. Re: ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink? (Munir Nassar)
> 4. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Chuck Cole)
> 5. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Yaron)
> 6. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Chuck Cole)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:02:50 -0600
> From: Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
> Message-ID:
> <CAMg8xas3=1dz4qYDT9t5MexWFiU_cKOE8zBz8n_uabPeKp38yQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
>> unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
>> can get is 1.5Meg. Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
>> available for you.
>>
>> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
>> ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
>> Comcast, you should let me know! :-) I attempted it the other day
>> with no success, unfortunately.
>
> that sounds legally questionable to me, even if such a fee was
> disclosed but IANAL. Call and give them the choice of downgrading the
> service or canceling the service altogether, of course that means that
> you have to actually cancel when it comes to it, but i have a feeling
> you will get a call from the service retention department very soon
> afterwards.
>
> Back in the Qworst days the trick to making them not suck was invoking
> the PUC, the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission, which does monitor
> and apparently fine the utilities for infractions. You can also call
> the State Attorney Generals' office to make a complaint. Mentioning
> either of these options should make them more cooperative.
>
> That said, i have been with USWest/Qwest/CenturyLink for close to ten
> years now, some ups and some downs... mostly depending on service
> area. i have the 7Meg service with Real-Time as my ISP and i have not
> had problems since moving to this house. unfortunately i cannot get
> the faster ADSL+ service without ditching Real-Time.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:10:05 -0600 (CST)
> From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> To: TCLUG <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413 at dragon>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> No, it's the spec that must be compatible, not just the brand. There are
>> other brands of CDMA spec phones.
>
> Phones belonging to one network in the US are not, are 100% NOT compatible
> with other providers. You CANNOT switch a phone from Sprint to Verizon for
> love nor money. Now perhaps there are phones that work on multiple
> systems, but this is not the norm.
>
> However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between AT&T and
> T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are readily available,
> because...
>
>> The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant comparison,
>> IMHO.
>
> But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses GSM. The US
> and Japan are rare exceptions.
>
> This is why unlocked GSM phones are standard and readily available. I can
> take my phone and use it in practically any other county using a local SIM
> card. This is how cellphones work just about everywhere in the world - you
> buy a phone and you can take it with you between providers because they
> all use the same (global) standard. In the US, carriers tend to subsidise
> the phones, and therefor lock them to their own serivce. Even if the
> systems are compatible it's a pain to transfer over. Though GSM makes this
> significantly easier.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:15:44 -0600
> From: Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
> Message-ID:
> <CAMg8xat7NbOBsqA=Tu8Zz-kHjQBnK6=mWs6sj1zABO_OCyB8Qg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have CenturyLink & probably live near you, since I have all the tiers &
>> am in south Minneapolis & on the same side of 35W.
>>
>> The CO is at 24th Ave & 33rd st. I'm about 3 blocks from there & am very
>> happy with the speed.
>>
>> I do have to power cycle their modem (it was offered to buy or rent, so I
>> bought it) every few weeks. If I don't, the connection will degrade or drop.
>> I've been temped to use a UPS & cron to automate it but haven't bothered.
>> Otis reliable & fast.
>
> The problem is likely with the modem, not with the service. Offloading
> PPPoE to your firewall should perform much better.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:59:50 -0600
> From: "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: "'TCLUG Mailing List'" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8 at d830a>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 9:10 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>> However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between
>> AT&T and T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are
>> readily available, because...
>>
>> > The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant
>> > comparison, IMHO.
>>
>> But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses
>> GSM. The US and Japan are rare exceptions.
>
> I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
> especially now. I can get good used CDMA phones easily. Had only terribly
> bad experiences from carriers using GSM, so try to avoid them, and don't
> need the minority GSM from a really bad provider. My VOIP provider software
> works from a computer anywhere in the world when I have an internet
> connection, and is the same as my home phone. My CDMA works in many places
> and via WiFi in others. Don't need GSM headaches again.
>
> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for everybody
> else.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:16:44 -0600 (CST)
> From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> To: TCLUG <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413 at dragon>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
> ...
>> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>> everybody
>> else.
>
> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide. Most US
> carriers never bothered upgrading their infrastructure, although they ARE
> working on it. And when they switch, you'll be the one who has to change
> phones.
>
> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people fairly
> horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one. Charging for
> incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also something that doesn't happen
> other places.
>
> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm not at all
> trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere in the conversation was
> anything like that mentioned. But when you say GSM is the minority and
> that you can switch CDMA phones between providers, sorry but that's just
> not true.
>
>
> --
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:02:42 -0600
> From: "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: "'TCLUG Mailing List'" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3 at d830a>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>> > I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of
>> the world,
>> ...
>> > Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>> > everybody else.
>>
>> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
>> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
>> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
>> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>>
>> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
>> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
>> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
>> something that doesn't happen other places.
>>
>> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
>> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
>> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
>> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
>> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.
>
> The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT defines
> a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
> doesn't matter much for citizens and services here. That's all I stated
> about majority.
>
> Nuf sed. Enjoy your whatever.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
> ******************************************
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Jan 20 10:29:54 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:29:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
In-Reply-To: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
References: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFjrxBpboBm7P+HubSy1vHzb0ZJp5VLpXLH0NXL-019Pg@mail.gmail.com>

Ken,
You might prefer to switch away from receiving digest emails. There
aren't too many emails on this list, so getting them one by one is
manageable. A benefit is that you can reply to individual emails more
precisely.

To modify your options enter your email address in the field at the
bottom of this page,
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

You'll need to provide your password, or use the password reminder
thing, and walk through that whole jazz.

Good luck,

-Erik

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Kenneth Lynes <kenlynes at usa.net> wrote:
>
> I have been unsuccessful in trying to state something here. I wonder what I
> am doing wrong. Being a bit inept at this sort of thing I assume that when
> it says in my subject line that I am replying to tclug-list Digest, Vol 97,
> Issue 35 that it is enough.
> I want to respond to Chuck's statements and will do so now
>
> Well, Chuck I agree with you. I think we in the USA have been getting
> screwed over by the various cell phone providers for years. I went to
> Germany in 2005 and had an eye-opening experience. My friend there told me
> that ALL incoming calls on a cell phone are paid for by the caller with no
> exceptions. It costs a lot to make those calls and consequently they get
> virtually NO spam calls or calls from charities or people trying to sell
> them windows for their houses. I thought that it was a great concept for the
> caller to pay for the call and too bad we dont do that as well.
> My experience with cell phones over-seas was that I knew my own phone from
> the USA would not work there at all and I was a bit confused by trying to
> use the phone system there as I was really unfamiliar with the system.
> Perhaps next time I am there, but I still wont bring my own phone. We are
> totally incompatible with their systems I think.
> You talk about the GSM phones and I think you are correct that most of the
> rest of the world uses that system. Why dont we also? So that our phone
> carriers can have their way with us and bend us over as much as they want.
> Competition is a myth really. I come from a time (1950's) when all local
> calls were free within my area code and I didnt even know anyone outside of
> it. We never had to figure out what a area code was unless we wanted to call
> out of state to some relative or were in the military and making a call home
> and then had to find out what our local area code was while sitting at a pay
> phone in NYC. LOL
>
> I also wanted to comment once about USI Wireless. I have used them as a way
> cheaper and better alternative to cable in Mpls and Quest or whatever they
> call themselves now. I am 73 and dropped my land line over 5 years ago. I
> had DSL which was not too bad when I first had it with USFamily Net but got
> worse when I moved over to Qwest at the same address and the same physical
> line used. I went to USI because it was cheaper and no contract required. If
> I would only save up a bit I could save by paying by the year and get my
> service for about $18.95/mo instead of $24.95. I will try to do it this
> year.
> I have had few issues since they installed an outside antenna for me as I am
> blessed with trees and high houses on all sides of me. It is rarely down now
> since they upgraded things about 10 months ago.
> It can be an issue if you have a lot of trees or obstacles, so keep that in
> mind if you are considering it.
>
> Ken
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 12:00:21 PM CST
> From: tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
>
>
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink? (Munir Nassar)
> 2. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Yaron)
> 3. Re: ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink? (Munir Nassar)
> 4. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Chuck Cole)
> 5. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Yaron)
> 6. Re: Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone (Chuck Cole)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:02:50 -0600
> From: Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
> Message-ID:
> <CAMg8xas3=1dz4qYDT9t5MexWFiU_cKOE8zBz8n_uabPeKp38yQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I recall my sister and her husband trying CenturyLink and it being
>> unbearable, although we live in Woodbury where the highest rate you
>> can get is 1.5Meg. Maybe their 7Meg offering would be better, if it's
>> available for you.
>>
>> Comcast recently hit me with that same increase (same promotion that
>> ended even) -- If you do end up being able to successfully haggle with
>> Comcast, you should let me know! :-) I attempted it the other day
>> with no success, unfortunately.
>
> that sounds legally questionable to me, even if such a fee was
> disclosed but IANAL. Call and give them the choice of downgrading the
> service or canceling the service altogether, of course that means that
> you have to actually cancel when it comes to it, but i have a feeling
> you will get a call from the service retention department very soon
> afterwards.
>
> Back in the Qworst days the trick to making them not suck was invoking
> the PUC, the Minnesota Public Utilities Commission, which does monitor
> and apparently fine the utilities for infractions. You can also call
> the State Attorney Generals' office to make a complaint. Mentioning
> either of these options should make them more cooperative.
>
> That said, i have been with USWest/Qwest/CenturyLink for close to ten
> years now, some ups and some downs... mostly depending on service
> area. i have the 7Meg service with Real-Time as my ISP and i have not
> had problems since moving to this house. unfortunately i cannot get
> the faster ADSL+ service without ditching Real-Time.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:10:05 -0600 (CST)
> From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> To: TCLUG <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413 at dragon>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> No, it's the spec that must be compatible, not just the brand. There are
>> other brands of CDMA spec phones.
>
> Phones belonging to one network in the US are not, are 100% NOT compatible
> with other providers. You CANNOT switch a phone from Sprint to Verizon for
> love nor money. Now perhaps there are phones that work on multiple
> systems, but this is not the norm.
>
> However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between AT&T and
> T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are readily available,
> because...
>
>> The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant comparison,
>> IMHO.
>
> But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses GSM. The US
> and Japan are rare exceptions.
>
> This is why unlocked GSM phones are standard and readily available. I can
> take my phone and use it in practically any other county using a local SIM
> card. This is how cellphones work just about everywhere in the world - you
> buy a phone and you can take it with you between providers because they
> all use the same (global) standard. In the US, carriers tend to subsidise
> the phones, and therefor lock them to their own serivce. Even if the
> systems are compatible it's a pain to transfer over. Though GSM makes this
> significantly easier.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:15:44 -0600
> From: Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] ISP shopping- USI Wireless, CenturyLink?
> Message-ID:
> <CAMg8xat7NbOBsqA=Tu8Zz-kHjQBnK6=mWs6sj1zABO_OCyB8Qg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have CenturyLink & probably live near you, since I have all the tiers &
>> am in south Minneapolis & on the same side of 35W.
>>
>> The CO is at 24th Ave & 33rd st. I'm about 3 blocks from there & am very
>> happy with the speed.
>>
>> I do have to power cycle their modem (it was offered to buy or rent, so I
>> bought it) every few weeks. If I don't, the connection will degrade or drop.
>> I've been temped to use a UPS & cron to automate it but haven't bothered.
>> Otis reliable & fast.
>
> The problem is likely with the modem, not with the service. Offloading
> PPPoE to your firewall should perform much better.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:59:50 -0600
> From: "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: "'TCLUG Mailing List'" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8 at d830a>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 9:10 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>> However, if I unlock a GSM phone, I can switch it between
>> AT&T and T-Mobile quite easily, and unlocked GSM phones are
>> readily available, because...
>>
>> > The fact that 5 of 7 providers don't use GSM is a significant
>> > comparison, IMHO.
>>
>> But go look at the rest of the world. Virtually everyone uses
>> GSM. The US and Japan are rare exceptions.
>
> I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
> especially now. I can get good used CDMA phones easily. Had only terribly
> bad experiences from carriers using GSM, so try to avoid them, and don't
> need the minority GSM from a really bad provider. My VOIP provider software
> works from a computer anywhere in the world when I have an internet
> connection, and is the same as my home phone. My CDMA works in many places
> and via WiFi in others. Don't need GSM headaches again.
>
> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for everybody
> else.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:16:44 -0600 (CST)
> From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> To: TCLUG <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413 at dragon>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of the world,
> ...
>> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>> everybody
>> else.
>
> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide. Most US
> carriers never bothered upgrading their infrastructure, although they ARE
> working on it. And when they switch, you'll be the one who has to change
> phones.
>
> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people fairly
> horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one. Charging for
> incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also something that doesn't happen
> other places.
>
> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm not at all
> trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere in the conversation was
> anything like that mentioned. But when you say GSM is the minority and
> that you can switch CDMA phones between providers, sorry but that's just
> not true.
>
>
> --
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 23:02:42 -0600
> From: "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: "'TCLUG Mailing List'" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
> Message-ID: <5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3 at d830a>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>> > I live in the USA. Have little need to look at the rest of
>> the world,
>> ...
>> > Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>> > everybody else.
>>
>> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
>> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
>> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
>> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>>
>> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
>> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
>> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
>> something that doesn't happen other places.
>>
>> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
>> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
>> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
>> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
>> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.
>
> The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT defines
> a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
> doesn't matter much for citizens and services here. That's all I stated
> about majority.
>
> Nuf sed. Enjoy your whatever.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
> ******************************************
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From marc at e-skinner.net  Sun Jan 20 13:58:50 2013
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 13:58:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: AMD X2 motherboard/CPU/memory
Message-ID: <50FC4C7A.5000907@e-skinner.net>

I have quantity 2 of the following Motherboard/CPU/memory combos:

AMD X2 4000+, w/ stock AMD cooler fan
ECS-GeoForce6100SM-M2 (HT2000) motherboard
2 x 2Gb Patriot GSeries DDR2 800Mhz memory


Links for more product info:
CPU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103774

Motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135074

Memory:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220409


These each ran file servers for a number of years.  Never overclocked 
and in a room that never got above 70 degrees.

Looking for $25 each.  Recently replaced them with AMD Phenom II X4, 
16GB, MSI MB setup.


Thanks!

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 01:24:21 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 01:24:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 97, Issue 35
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFjrxBpboBm7P+HubSy1vHzb0ZJp5VLpXLH0NXL-019Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <239RaTDZP3200S06.1358652376@web06.cms.usa.net>
	<CANNReEFjrxBpboBm7P+HubSy1vHzb0ZJp5VLpXLH0NXL-019Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301210117300.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Regarding digests -- I have subscribed to digests (not here) and was able 
to receive MIME digests and reply to an individual message (e.g., using 
[al]pine).  That's nice.  But if people can't do that, or cope with 
individual messages (I use procmail filtering), then they really ought to 
do this:

(1) change the subject of your reply to match the subject of the message 
you are replying to.  Otherwise the subject (like this one) tells us 
nothing.

(2) Please, please, do not leave the entire digest dangling below your 
message (or sitting above it, if bottom posting).  That's just rude and 
wrong and it makes a mess of the archive and of web searches.  Just trim 
your reply to leave only the relevant part.  We should all do this, 
always.

Mike



On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> You might prefer to switch away from receiving digest emails. There 
> aren't too many emails on this list, so getting them one by one is 
> manageable. A benefit is that you can reply to individual emails more 
> precisely.
>
> To modify your options enter your email address in the field at the 
> bottom of this page, 
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> You'll need to provide your password, or use the password reminder 
> thing, and walk through that whole jazz.

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 13:40:02 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:40:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

This got a little longer than intended -- it's mostly a comparison of 
Sprint CDMA service with T-Mobile GSM service in the Twin Cities and along 
I-94 between here and Madison.  T-Mobile lies about coverage, and other 
things, so I can't use their service.  Much more below...

I had a Sprint CDMA phone for almost 10 years.  Before that I had a 
T-Mobile GSM phone, but that was only until about 2003 or 2004 -- it 
didn't last long because I thought the coverage was really poor.  So now 
I'm switching back to T-Mobile from Sprint and I'm hoping that T-Mobile 
has improved, but as you will see below, it hasn't improved enough.

I think Chuck and Yaron both make excellent points, and though they 
disagree on which system (GSM or CDMA) they'd choose, I see little 
disagreement about the facts, just a disagreement about preferences.  I 
have been aware of the things they are talking about and the issues are 
major considerations in my choice of carrier.

CDMA is most common in the USA, but it is rare elsewhere, while GSM is all 
over most of the rest of the world.  Sometimes I go to Ecuador or to 
Europe and both are GSM-only.  It would be really cool if I could swap out 
a SIM card in Europe or Ecuador and keep on using my phone, but I'm not 
there very often and I've always gotten by without my phone.

Meanwhile, the other 97% of the time I'm here in the USA, and about 93% of 
the time in the Twin Cities, and I'm trying to get things done here. 
Thus, how the phone works in the USA, and especially in the Twin Cities, 
is much more important to me than how it works in other nations.  I do 
want to help promote GSM, but if the service is bad here, I'm not going to 
use GSM.  Now that I've had the T-Mobile phone for a few days, I can tell 
you this...

I drove to Madison and back this weekend.  Along the way, I checked every 
few miles and I found that there was no point between the Twin Cities and 
Madison (on I-94) where I could get an internet connection with my 
T-Mobile Nexus 4 -- nothing, ever.  In Madison, I had no internet 
connection -- no G4, no G3, no G-anything, no internet service at all. 
The phone service seemed to be working at most points along the way, but 
not always, and it went to roaming at many points.  My wife was with me 
and she used her Sprint (CDMA) iPhone often and with great success.  She 
had G3 service most of the way and was doing things like streaming Curious 
George videos from PBS Kids, uninterrupted,, full shows, no problem, while 
I had *no* *internet* at all on my T-Mobile GSM supposedly-G4 Nexus 4 
phone.  It was totally worthless.

The service within my home also matters to me.  Sprint phone service in my 
home works very poorly.  Because of that, we bought a cordless phone and a 
NetTalk Duo, and that works well.  I also have CenturyLink internet 
service, which should nearly always work, so we can cope with poor 
cellular phone service in the home.  It is nice to see that T-Mobile works 
all over the house, even in the back of the basement, while Sprint drops 
calls almost everywhere in the house except for next to one south window. 
But, strangely, I can get the internet on the Sprint phone to work in the 
house, which has been very helpful when the CenturyLink wire has been torn 
down by trucks passing in the alley (I think they have raised the wire 
high enough this time that it won't come down), and I cannot get the 
T-Mobile internet service to work in my home -- phone, but no internet.

I was surprised that T-Mobile gives no internet in Madison, nor at any 
point between the Twin Cities and Madison along I-94.  I thought service 
along major highways was a priority.  The phone mostly worked along I-94, 
but not the internet service.  Sprint worked *much* better.

So how do I decide what I want?  Here are the issues:

(1) phone service in the Twin Cities - possibly a tie, but not thoroughly 
tested

(2) internet service in the Twin Cities - Sprint is ahead, but not 
thoroughly tested

(3) phone service in my home -- T-Mobile wins by a wide margin

(4) phone service between here and Madison -- Sprint seems to win

(5) internet service between here and Madison -- Sprint by a landslide

(6) internet service in my home -- Sprint wins, nothing for T-Mobile

(7) phone service in Ecuador -- T-Mobile (GSM) wins

(8) phone service in other parts of the USA -- not sure.

(9) internet service in other parts of the USA -- not sure.

So I'm not liking T-Mobile service very much.  I will probably try another 
carrier, maybe Verizon, to see how that works for me.  T-Mobile blew it 
first by overcharging me by $300 for the Nexus 4 phone.  Their next 
problem was having *nothing* for internet between here and Madison, and 
nothing in Madison.  Pretty lame.

The T-Mobile coverage maps are a scam and a lie.  Check this out:

http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/pcc.aspx/

Zoom to a level where you can see the Twin Cities on one side and Madison 
on the other, look at the 3G/4G map.  It shows "excellent" coverage the 
entire way along I-94.  Now zoom in two levels and you will see that the 
"excellent" coverage magically disappears and is replaced by 2G, at best, 
most of the way.  However, my phone never reported any 2G service, 
anywhere, and it gave me no internet at all and no web apps worked at all.

In other words, T-Mobile has been lying to me and ripping me off and I'm 
done with them.

Mike


On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>>> I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of
>> the world,
>> ...
>>> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>>> everybody else.
>>
>> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
>> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
>> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
>> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>>
>> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
>> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
>> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
>> something that doesn't happen other places.
>>
>> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
>> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
>> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
>> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
>> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.
>
> The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT defines
> a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
> doesn't matter much for citizens and services here.  That's all I stated
> about majority.
>
> Nuf sed.  Enjoy your whatever.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 21 15:56:23 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:56:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:40 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us!

> I think Chuck and Yaron both make excellent points, and
> though they disagree on which system (GSM or CDMA) they'd
> choose, I see little disagreement about the facts, just a
> disagreement about preferences.

Almost true, but Yaron didn't believe CDMA is a majority of carriers and
likely also in users in the USA.  I cannot get the provider features with
GSM that I have and use with Sprint's CDMA.  Sprint is truly unlimited,
while GSM doesn't seem to have that, and T-Mobile really sucks.
I was screwed by GSM (carrier lied about major coverage gaps.  I got out w/o
early termination by eagerly suggesting we take the issue to court).
Everyone I know who uses GSM has significant problems of one sort or
another: my preferences are clear.  Don't have a technical issue with either
GSM or other Esperanto-like fetishes some folks have   :-)

Not previouly mentioned, but Nokia (inventor and major supplier of GSM) was
going bankrupt last I heard.  Did they recover?


> CDMA is most common in the USA, but it is rare elsewhere,
> while GSM is all over most of the rest of the world.
> Sometimes I go to Ecuador or to Europe and both are GSM-only.
>  It would be really cool if I could swap out a SIM card in
> Europe or Ecuador and keep on using my phone, but I'm not
> there very often and I've always gotten by without my phone.

POINT of THIS POST:  I recall seeing some phones that do BOTH and almost
interchangeably.  Must have two RF chips..Not sure what that means at data
level or provider levels.

> The service within my home also matters to me.  Sprint phone
> service in my home works very poorly.  Because of that, we
> bought a cordless phone and a NetTalk Duo, and that works
> well.

There are boosters by Wilson for about $145 that have outside antenna, RF
amp, and inside antenna.  I think these are all/only RF and not
modulation-dependent, so would help both GSM and CDMA...  IIRC.

My Sprint signal is good inside most of my house, but weak in my basement
where my office is.  WiFi seems to fix this 4G weakness pretty well.



Chuck





From mgreenly at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 16:02:24 2013
From: mgreenly at gmail.com (Michael Greenly)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:02:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>

If you zoom in on the coverage map you'll notice the entire distance on 94
is 2G (edge) only.  I wonder if the phone was having problems falling back
go 2G?  Not that it really matters because edge speeds are next to
worthless for anything other than  im or email.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> This got a little longer than intended -- it's mostly a comparison of
> Sprint CDMA service with T-Mobile GSM service in the Twin Cities and along
> I-94 between here and Madison.  T-Mobile lies about coverage, and other
> things, so I can't use their service.  Much more below...
>
> I had a Sprint CDMA phone for almost 10 years.  Before that I had a
> T-Mobile GSM phone, but that was only until about 2003 or 2004 -- it didn't
> last long because I thought the coverage was really poor.  So now I'm
> switching back to T-Mobile from Sprint and I'm hoping that T-Mobile has
> improved, but as you will see below, it hasn't improved enough.
>
> I think Chuck and Yaron both make excellent points, and though they
> disagree on which system (GSM or CDMA) they'd choose, I see little
> disagreement about the facts, just a disagreement about preferences.  I
> have been aware of the things they are talking about and the issues are
> major considerations in my choice of carrier.
>
> CDMA is most common in the USA, but it is rare elsewhere, while GSM is all
> over most of the rest of the world.  Sometimes I go to Ecuador or to Europe
> and both are GSM-only.  It would be really cool if I could swap out a SIM
> card in Europe or Ecuador and keep on using my phone, but I'm not there
> very often and I've always gotten by without my phone.
>
> Meanwhile, the other 97% of the time I'm here in the USA, and about 93% of
> the time in the Twin Cities, and I'm trying to get things done here. Thus,
> how the phone works in the USA, and especially in the Twin Cities, is much
> more important to me than how it works in other nations.  I do want to help
> promote GSM, but if the service is bad here, I'm not going to use GSM.  Now
> that I've had the T-Mobile phone for a few days, I can tell you this...
>
> I drove to Madison and back this weekend.  Along the way, I checked every
> few miles and I found that there was no point between the Twin Cities and
> Madison (on I-94) where I could get an internet connection with my T-Mobile
> Nexus 4 -- nothing, ever.  In Madison, I had no internet connection -- no
> G4, no G3, no G-anything, no internet service at all. The phone service
> seemed to be working at most points along the way, but not always, and it
> went to roaming at many points.  My wife was with me and she used her
> Sprint (CDMA) iPhone often and with great success.  She had G3 service most
> of the way and was doing things like streaming Curious George videos from
> PBS Kids, uninterrupted,, full shows, no problem, while I had *no*
> *internet* at all on my T-Mobile GSM supposedly-G4 Nexus 4 phone.  It was
> totally worthless.
>
> The service within my home also matters to me.  Sprint phone service in my
> home works very poorly.  Because of that, we bought a cordless phone and a
> NetTalk Duo, and that works well.  I also have CenturyLink internet
> service, which should nearly always work, so we can cope with poor cellular
> phone service in the home.  It is nice to see that T-Mobile works all over
> the house, even in the back of the basement, while Sprint drops calls
> almost everywhere in the house except for next to one south window. But,
> strangely, I can get the internet on the Sprint phone to work in the house,
> which has been very helpful when the CenturyLink wire has been torn down by
> trucks passing in the alley (I think they have raised the wire high enough
> this time that it won't come down), and I cannot get the T-Mobile internet
> service to work in my home -- phone, but no internet.
>
> I was surprised that T-Mobile gives no internet in Madison, nor at any
> point between the Twin Cities and Madison along I-94.  I thought service
> along major highways was a priority.  The phone mostly worked along I-94,
> but not the internet service.  Sprint worked *much* better.
>
> So how do I decide what I want?  Here are the issues:
>
> (1) phone service in the Twin Cities - possibly a tie, but not thoroughly
> tested
>
> (2) internet service in the Twin Cities - Sprint is ahead, but not
> thoroughly tested
>
> (3) phone service in my home -- T-Mobile wins by a wide margin
>
> (4) phone service between here and Madison -- Sprint seems to win
>
> (5) internet service between here and Madison -- Sprint by a landslide
>
> (6) internet service in my home -- Sprint wins, nothing for T-Mobile
>
> (7) phone service in Ecuador -- T-Mobile (GSM) wins
>
> (8) phone service in other parts of the USA -- not sure.
>
> (9) internet service in other parts of the USA -- not sure.
>
> So I'm not liking T-Mobile service very much.  I will probably try another
> carrier, maybe Verizon, to see how that works for me.  T-Mobile blew it
> first by overcharging me by $300 for the Nexus 4 phone.  Their next problem
> was having *nothing* for internet between here and Madison, and nothing in
> Madison.  Pretty lame.
>
> The T-Mobile coverage maps are a scam and a lie.  Check this out:
>
> http://www.t-mobile.com/**coverage/pcc.aspx/<http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/pcc.aspx/>
>
> Zoom to a level where you can see the Twin Cities on one side and Madison
> on the other, look at the 3G/4G map.  It shows "excellent" coverage the
> entire way along I-94.  Now zoom in two levels and you will see that the
> "excellent" coverage magically disappears and is replaced by 2G, at best,
> most of the way.  However, my phone never reported any 2G service,
> anywhere, and it gave me no internet at all and no web apps worked at all.
>
> In other words, T-Mobile has been lying to me and ripping me off and I'm
> done with them.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.**org<tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org>
>>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-**linux.org<tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org>]
>>> On Behalf Of Yaron
>>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
>>> To: TCLUG
>>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>  I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of
>>>>
>>> the world,
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>>>> everybody else.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
>>> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
>>> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
>>> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>>>
>>> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
>>> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
>>> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
>>> something that doesn't happen other places.
>>>
>>> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
>>> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
>>> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
>>> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
>>> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.
>>>
>>
>> The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT
>> defines
>> a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
>> doesn't matter much for citizens and services here.  That's all I stated
>> about majority.
>>
>> Nuf sed.  Enjoy your whatever.
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>>
>>  ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>



-- 
Michael Greenly
http://logic-refinery.com
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 21 16:35:44 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 16:35:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Almost true, but Yaron didn't believe CDMA is a majority of carriers and
> likely also in users in the USA.

Oh for goodness sake. I NEVER SAID THAT. I said GSM is undoubtebly the 
most popular system GLOBALLY. I /specifically/ said that the US is LAGGING 
BEHIND most of the world BECAUSE CDMA is the most popular system here.

> POINT of THIS POST:  I recall seeing some phones that do BOTH and almost
> interchangeably.  Must have two RF chips..Not sure what that means at data
> level or provider levels.

There are what are called "World Phones" that have both CDMA and GSM. 
These are few and far between, though, and while they can hop btween GSM 
networks with zero problems, they still have trouble hopping around CDMA 
networks.


We're getting WAY the heck off topic here, but I'll say this.

CDMA is an old, old, old and outdated technology. It is missing alot of 
features GSM does, notably that you can't use voice and data at the same 
time with CDMA.

Furthermore, CDMA is a lot better for locking users into a specific 
carrier. It is virtually unknown of to be able to take a CDMA phone to a 
different provider - try taking a Verizon phone to Sprint, for example. 
Good luck with that. If you buy an 'unlocked' CDMA phone you're still at 
the mercy of your provider.

Contrast this with an unlocked GSM phone. First, since GSM /is/ in use 
globally, unlocked GSM phones are readily available. Google has been 
directly selling unlocked GSM Nexus phones for ages, for example, and you 
can get an unlocked GSM phone, not tied to any provider, on Amazon. 
Easily.

Once you have this phone, you can use it on any GSM network. In the world. 
Without asking the provider for permission. You just put the SIM card in.

I have three unlocked GSM phones at home. If my primary phone breaks, I 
can easily move my SIM to a backup phone. If I don't like my provider, I 
have many more options to switch without having to buy a new phone than if 
I was on a CDMA network.


Now as for the quality of SERVICE, that's a completely different matter.

I've been using T-Mobile for a loooong time, and I can tell you that the 
quality of their service AND their customer service has gone downhill a 
looong way. When Mike said he can't get data service in his home I was 
sadly not surprised. I have a hrd time with that, too, as do some other 
t-mobile people I know. This just started happening out of the blue a few 
years back, and t-mobile claims it's "impossible". And don't get me 
started on their customer service which used to be fantastic (it used to 
be the #1 rated customer satisfaction provider! Not anymore...)

This has nothing at all to do with underlying technology and, Chuck, I 
think you misunderstood me completely if you thought that's what I'm 
saying. By all means, use whatever network is best for you. I'd never 
advise you to do otherwise.




--

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 18:26:00 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:26:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
Message-ID: <CABWFOju8rk-7S558HM0CJszKHsyrK+qqMTxFCEEGKRwJwv9eTw@mail.gmail.com>

Mike Miller:

> So I'm not liking T-Mobile service very much.  I will probably try another
> carrier, maybe Verizon, to see how that works for me.
>

> In other words, T-Mobile has been lying to me and ripping me off and I'm
> done with them.

Beware of Verizon Wireless.  I had a similarly nasty experience with
them about 6 years ago.   This reminds me of Lance Armstrong.
I heard he got about 30 million from the USPS.  Now they are going
to take it back and a lot more.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises -- In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 20:54:25 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 20:54:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KV_Q5tCPE1PHwUN9yye=P8cqYJyi3WFVgvnR6gM0y2Ruw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I drove to Madison and back this weekend.  Along the way, I checked every
> few miles and I found that there was no point between the Twin Cities and
> Madison (on I-94) where I could get an internet connection with my T-Mobile
> Nexus 4 -- nothing, ever.  In Madison, I had no internet connection -- no
> G4, no G3, no G-anything, no internet service at all. The phone service
> seemed to be working at most points along the way, but not always, and it
> went to roaming at many points.
>
-- 

> I was surprised that T-Mobile gives no internet in Madison, nor at any
> point between the Twin Cities and Madison along I-94.  I thought service
> along major highways was a priority.  The phone mostly worked along I-94,
> but not the internet service.  Sprint worked *much* better.
>

As an additional statistical point, and for voice only, ATT gets the best
(only?) coverage in upper-Michigan and Nothern Wisconsin (specifically the
Ironwood/Hurley area). There's limited 2G coverage in town. I ended up
getting T-Mobile because I go up there regularly, roaming on ATT's towers
doesn't cost extra, and T-Mobile was cheaper than AT&T for my usage.
--
Michael
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 21:07:37 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:07:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211823210.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Yaron wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> Almost true, but Yaron didn't believe CDMA is a majority of carriers 
>> and likely also in users in the USA.
>
> Oh for goodness sake. I NEVER SAID THAT. I said GSM is undoubtebly the 
> most popular system GLOBALLY. I /specifically/ said that the US is 
> LAGGING BEHIND most of the world BECAUSE CDMA is the most popular system 
> here.

That's what I was seeing -- Yaron did say that.  The one point that I 
thought you actually were disagreeing about was whether a Sprint CDMA 
phone could be used on another CDMA network.  Yaron said that it could 
not, and I think he was right.


> We're getting WAY the heck off topic here, but I'll say this.

I don't know -- we are interested in using Linux systems, like Android on 
phones that give us internet access.  How we can get that access for our 
Linux devices is pretty important and I think worthy of our attention. 
This will be even more true in a few years.


> CDMA is an old, old, old and outdated technology. It is missing alot of 
> features GSM does, notably that you can't use voice and data at the same 
> time with CDMA.

Interesting that I didn't notice that during the 9 years or so that I was 
using my Sprint phones.  I would have sworn that the old Treo 600 was able 
to do it, though that was pre-EVDO and I'm not sure what it had.  I guess 
current Sprint can do voice and WiFi at the same time, though, which might 
be why I didn't notice it.


> Furthermore, CDMA is a lot better for locking users into a specific 
> carrier. It is virtually unknown of to be able to take a CDMA phone to a 
> different provider - try taking a Verizon phone to Sprint, for example. 
> Good luck with that. If you buy an 'unlocked' CDMA phone you're still at 
> the mercy of your provider.
>
> Contrast this with an unlocked GSM phone. First, since GSM /is/ in use 
> globally, unlocked GSM phones are readily available. Google has been 
> directly selling unlocked GSM Nexus phones for ages, for example, and 
> you can get an unlocked GSM phone, not tied to any provider, on Amazon. 
> Easily.
>
> Once you have this phone, you can use it on any GSM network. In the 
> world. Without asking the provider for permission. You just put the SIM 
> card in.
>
> I have three unlocked GSM phones at home. If my primary phone breaks, I 
> can easily move my SIM to a backup phone. If I don't like my provider, I 
> have many more options to switch without having to buy a new phone than 
> if I was on a CDMA network.

That's another good argument for the superiority of GSM technology to CDMA 
technology, but...


> Now as for the quality of SERVICE, that's a completely different matter.
>
> I've been using T-Mobile for a loooong time, and I can tell you that the 
> quality of their service AND their customer service has gone downhill a 
> looong way. When Mike said he can't get data service in his home I was sadly 
> not surprised. I have a hrd time with that, too, as do some other t-mobile 
> people I know. This just started happening out of the blue a few years back, 
> and t-mobile claims it's "impossible". And don't get me started on their 
> customer service which used to be fantastic (it used to be the #1 rated 
> customer satisfaction provider! Not anymore...)
>
> This has nothing at all to do with underlying technology and, Chuck, I think 
> you misunderstood me completely if you thought that's what I'm saying. By all 
> means, use whatever network is best for you. I'd never advise you to do 
> otherwise.

Now I'm looking at the AT&T coverage maps and they seem to be claiming 
better coverage than T-Mobile.  Maybe that's accurate.  They say they have 
4G in Madison and all over the Twin Cities.  It looks like they go to a 
partner between Eau Claire County and Wisconsin Dells, both for voice and 
data, and data drops to 2G, but I could live with that.

http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/#?type=data&lat=44.05586242675781&lon=-91.80553436279297&sci=4

It looks like their policy is that if you use 6MB or more of data from a 
partner in two consecutive months, AT&T reserves the right to terminate 
your service.  That's weird.  I guess that means they aren't charging for 
roaming.

Mike

From jmore at starmind.org  Mon Jan 21 21:00:50 2013
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:00:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KV_Q5tCPE1PHwUN9yye=P8cqYJyi3WFVgvnR6gM0y2Ruw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAFE18KV_Q5tCPE1PHwUN9yye=P8cqYJyi3WFVgvnR6gM0y2Ruw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt_o9okeyD8--su7=E83bv_cP15a=5J=Rrm9MkrJpmZWjw@mail.gmail.com>

The same, at least a few months ago, was mostly true for the Sprint network.

I'm on Verizon today due in no small part to that particular drive.

-Josh More



On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I drove to Madison and back this weekend.  Along the way, I checked every
>> few miles and I found that there was no point between the Twin Cities and
>> Madison (on I-94) where I could get an internet connection with my T-Mobile
>> Nexus 4 -- nothing, ever.  In Madison, I had no internet connection -- no
>> G4, no G3, no G-anything, no internet service at all. The phone service
>> seemed to be working at most points along the way, but not always, and it
>> went to roaming at many points.
>>
> --
>
>> I was surprised that T-Mobile gives no internet in Madison, nor at any
>> point between the Twin Cities and Madison along I-94.  I thought service
>> along major highways was a priority.  The phone mostly worked along I-94,
>> but not the internet service.  Sprint worked *much* better.
>>
>
> As an additional statistical point, and for voice only, ATT gets the best
> (only?) coverage in upper-Michigan and Nothern Wisconsin (specifically the
> Ironwood/Hurley area). There's limited 2G coverage in town. I ended up
> getting T-Mobile because I go up there regularly, roaming on ATT's towers
> doesn't cost extra, and T-Mobile was cheaper than AT&T for my usage.
> --
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 21:41:39 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:41:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Michael Greenly wrote:

> If you zoom in on the coverage map you'll notice the entire distance on 
> 94 is 2G (edge) only.

Yes, I said that, too, but there is a problem when a map at a certain 
level shows 4G, but then when you zoom a step it says 2G, then you go to 
that place in the real world and there is *nothing*.  I call that "lying" 
but it is at least a disconcerting inaccuracy.


> I wonder if the phone was having problems falling back go 2G?

That's possible.  The phone could be bad.  It's a new Nexus 4.  I'm sure I 
have all the settings right, though.

The other thing is I get no data service in my home, not even 2G.


> Not that it really matters because edge speeds are next to worthless for 
> anything other than im or email.

Well, we used to think 100 Kbps was fast and we'd pay a lot of money to 
get it (e.g., ISDN service).  These days web pages are bigger, I'm sure, 
but it would be nice to have in a pinch -- way better than nothing!

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 21 21:50:23 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 21:50:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOju8rk-7S558HM0CJszKHsyrK+qqMTxFCEEGKRwJwv9eTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOju8rk-7S558HM0CJszKHsyrK+qqMTxFCEEGKRwJwv9eTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212142050.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Brian Wood wrote:

> Beware of Verizon Wireless.  I had a similarly nasty experience with 
> them about 6 years ago.

I've had a few warnings about Verizon, but I think they have good 
coverage.  I haven't been warned yet against AT&T.  I was hearing a lot of 
bad things about AT&T a few years ago, probably because the iPhone caused 
so many new users on their network, but I think they might have fixed 
that.  Any ideas?



OT part that we shouldn't continue on this list...

> This reminds me of Lance Armstrong. I heard he got about 30 million from 
> the USPS.  Now they are going to take it back and a lot more.

Worse -- USPS bought insurance against the possibility the team would win 
and they'd have to pay out millions, so the insurance company made the 
payments, and they take cheating very seriously.  They had sued him 
before, but they lost because they didn't have sufficient evidence of 
cheating, according to the courts.  That has changed.

Mike

From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jan 21 22:18:26 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 22:18:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu><FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
Message-ID: <D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 4:36 PM
>
> > Almost true, but Yaron didn't believe CDMA is a majority of
> carriers
> > and likely also in users in the USA.
>
> Oh for goodness sake. I NEVER SAID THAT. I said GSM is
> undoubtedly the most popular system GLOBALLY.

I didn't see you state it that way, but no matter now.

That's an opinion that the US lags anybody in technology.  That's why we are
copied and plagiarized so much.

> > POINT of THIS POST:  I recall seeing some phones that do BOTH and
> > almost interchangeably.  Must have two RF chips. Not sure what that
> > means at data level or provider levels.
>
> There are what are called "World Phones" that have both CDMA and GSM.
> These are few and far between, though, and while they can hop
> between GSM networks with zero problems, they still have
> trouble hopping around CDMA networks.


> We're getting WAY the heck off topic here, but I'll say this.
>
> CDMA is an old, old, old and outdated technology. It is
> missing a lot of features GSM does, notably that you can't use
> voice and data at the same time with CDMA.

I haven't checked, but I have seen claims that CDMA can do both.  The
modulation and coding schemes are so complex and sophisticated, that there
are options to do both by various means, including code-division.


> Furthermore, CDMA is a lot better for locking users into a
> specific carrier. It is virtually unknown of to be able to
> take a CDMA phone to a different provider - try taking a
> Verizon phone to Sprint, for example.
> Good luck with that. If you buy an 'unlocked' CDMA phone
> you're still at the mercy of your provider.

Likely true, but irrelevant for me.  Never has been an issue for me.  I can
get used compatible phones easily enough.

> Contrast this with an unlocked GSM phone. First, since GSM
> /is/ in use globally, unlocked GSM phones are readily
> available. Google has been directly selling unlocked GSM
> Nexus phones for ages, for example, and you can get an
> unlocked GSM phone, not tied to any provider, on Amazon.
> Easily.

But I cannot get any acceptable GSM provider, and don't need a dead
technology necklace for my costume  :-)

> Once you have this phone, you can use it on any GSM network.
> In the world.

So what?  I have zero interest or use for that.  I have no interest in using
the worst providers in the US either.  GSM is a poor return on investment by
any and all criteria - for me.



> I have three unlocked GSM phones at home. If my primary phone
> breaks, I can easily move my SIM to a backup phone.

I have backup phones also.  An easy call to Sprint swaps my online hardware
at no cost no matter how many times I may do it per day.  Takes less than
1/2 hr to fully register the phone in their national networks.

I have some unusable old phones also, but they do measure in-band signal
strength in dbm in their diagnostic mode so I haven't tossed them yet.

> I've been using T-Mobile for a loooong time, and I can tell
> you that the quality of their service AND their customer
> service has gone downhill a looong way.

Have never heard that it was acceptably good.


> This has nothing at all to do with underlying technology and,
> Chuck, I think you misunderstood me completely if you thought
> that's what I'm saying.

Nearly everything you say seems to say you do believe it is a technology
matter and not the pragmatic one of good or best US service.

Note that I greatly respect your views even when I don't share them.  This
is not a personal squabble at all.  Some folks may benefit from seeing these
different views presented... But time to quit this topic :-)


Chuck



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 00:30:34 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 00:30:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu><FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
	<D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Note that I greatly respect your views even when I don't share them. 
> This is not a personal squabble at all.  Some folks may benefit from 
> seeing these different views presented... But time to quit this topic



I think it was a good review of the differences.  Clearly, GSM is the best 
choice for people who need to use their phone in other nations. 
Otherwise, most of the differences between types of service and specific 
carriers will affect different users in different ways depending on how we 
travel, whether we can get service at home, etc.

Sometimes I think people feel like other people should use the carrier 
they use, and if other people don't want it, they feel slighted -- their 
choice was rejected by the other person.  It's worse when someone asks 
your opinion, you give it, and they dismiss it, or at least don't follow 
your advice.  But I think with phone service, a feature that is very 
important to one person might mean nothing to another person, so we aren't 
going to rank our preferences in the same ways.


I would still like to hear if people are having good luck with the AT&T 
data service around the Twin Cities (which should mean 4G service).

Mike

From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Tue Jan 22 03:10:13 2013
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:10:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
Message-ID: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday January 26th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This months Penguins Unbound Meeting will be an Open Q&A !

Bring your question, and we will find some answers!

A couple questions I have,
   Should continue to have "Install Fests" ? or release Parties ?

   Would people be interested in a Pi-Day ? A day full of Rasberry Pi 
Hacking! We would start out the the basics, with you and your Pi. Then 
have specific topics. You would bring your Pi and get time to hack, to 
allow you to learn and ask questions... (is someone who is associated 
with the a local hacker space able to attend so we could work together ?)

Hope to see you at the meeting!

*** Note: This months meeting will be in a different location, the 4th 
floor Board Room.  You should use the front Doors (the ones at the 
corner of Snelling and Larpenteur), and take the elevator to the 4th 
floor, then straight out the elevator to the board room. ** Please try 
to be there before 10:00 am, because the front doors will lock after 
10:15. Thanks.

==>brian.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 22 04:17:07 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:17:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu><FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon><D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <F7CBEB311D2E474FB23B63E96E31EB25@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:31 AM
>
> I would still like to hear if people are having good luck
> with the AT&T data service around the Twin Cities (which
> should mean 4G service).

I hear it works fine but has data volume limits of several kinds.  Some
providers (both AT&T, T-Mobile, no contract plans ..  et al?) have weasel
wording about "data service included" but hide that it's capped.  A friend
has AT&T with an expensive unlimited voice plan, but gets extra charges for
exceeding their basic quotas for data and texting.



Chuck




From kris.browne at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 05:05:14 2013
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kris Browne)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:05:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
	<D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <EF5B2161-8699-4F59-AA58-3D2A84085571@gmail.com>

I am using an iPad with at&t LTE as my main device, and across the twin cities I haven't had any issues with coverage unless I've been in been in old bomb shelter basements (my sons elementary school) where it falls to 3G. 

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?.          Kristopher Browne
?? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ?.       kris.browne at gmail.com
?Happy? ? ? ? ? ?.
??Holidays!? ? ??
  _?_? ? ? ? ? ? ?
/____?/ ??? ? ? ?
l??? |?| ? ? ? ? ?

On Jan 22, 2013, at 0:30, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
> 
>> Note that I greatly respect your views even when I don't share them. This is not a personal squabble at all.  Some folks may benefit from seeing these different views presented... But time to quit this topic
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was a good review of the differences.  Clearly, GSM is the best choice for people who need to use their phone in other nations. Otherwise, most of the differences between types of service and specific carriers will affect different users in different ways depending on how we travel, whether we can get service at home, etc.
> 
> Sometimes I think people feel like other people should use the carrier they use, and if other people don't want it, they feel slighted -- their choice was rejected by the other person.  It's worse when someone asks your opinion, you give it, and they dismiss it, or at least don't follow your advice.  But I think with phone service, a feature that is very important to one person might mean nothing to another person, so we aren't going to rank our preferences in the same ways.
> 
> 
> I would still like to hear if people are having good luck with the AT&T data service around the Twin Cities (which should mean 4G service).
> 
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 05:32:58 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:32:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] AT&T Data Service
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2201.1358852726.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.2201.1358852726.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <E7281A37-F04C-4A6F-A10D-B60E9105D559@gmail.com>

For Mike, who asked this ?:
+++
I would still like to hear if people are having good luck with the AT&T 
data service around the Twin Cities (which should mean 4G service).
+++

I have been using AT&T since May, for work,I access my company's ticket system via the web. I travel all over the Twin Cities & other than when I'm in a building downtown or somewhere the building is at fault, I only lost service, including data, a couple times, when I was in very remote areas. For example, Hamel, MN comes to mind... My customer on that call said he has a landline because NO wireless carriers cover that area well. 

I don't know about 4G, my phone is the iPhone 3GS. 

Susan Stewart 






On Jan 22, 2013, at 5:05 AM, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote:

> 
> I would still like to hear if people are having good luck with the AT&T 
> data service around the Twin Cities (which should mean 4G service).

From jima at beer.tclug.org  Tue Jan 22 07:53:11 2013
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:53:11 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
Message-ID: <50FE99C7.6060607@beer.tclug.org>

On 2013-01-18 22:02, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
>> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 10:17 PM
>> To: TCLUG
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Jan 2013, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>>> I live in the USA.  Have little need to look at the rest of
>> the world,
>> ...
>>> Your liking the "minority spec" doesn't make it a great choice for
>>> everybody else.
>>
>> Wow. Again, CDMA is by FAR the "minority" spec, worldwide.
>> Most US carriers never bothered upgrading their
>> infrastructure, although they ARE working on it. And when
>> they switch, you'll be the one who has to change phones.
>>
>> Either way, though, most cell carriers in the US treat people
>> fairly horribly. The aforementioned phone-locking, for one.
>> Charging for incomming SMS/MMS and phonecalls is also
>> something that doesn't happen other places.
>>
>> I'm glad you're happy with your phone and service, and I'm
>> not at all trying to get you to switch or anything. Nowhere
>> in the conversation was anything like that mentioned. But
>> when you say GSM is the minority and that you can switch CDMA
>> phones between providers, sorry but that's just not true.
>
> The fact that 5 of 7 US providers use CDMA is indeed true, and THAT defines
> a kind of majority, as I stated before... As I also stated, worldwide
> doesn't matter much for citizens and services here.  That's all I stated
> about majority.
>
> Nuf sed.  Enjoy your whatever.

  Chuck, it's pretty intellectually dishonest to dumb down this 
conversation to CDMA vs. GSM.  Sprint's first foray into 4G was using 
WiMAX, a path they've since abandoned.  They're now re-deploying their 
4G as LTE, just as Verizon did well before everyone else.  (I also find 
Verizon's commercials touting the largest 4G LTE network similarly 
dishonest -- yes, their 4G LTE network is the biggest, because everyone 
else's first "4G" deployment used other technologies.)

  Let's see, who in the United States is moving to LTE?

AT&T
Cricket Wireless
MetroPCS
Sprint Nextel
US Cellular
Verizon Wireless

  Curiously, five of those carriers you put squarely in the CDMA column. 
  How invested are they in CDMA going forward, exactly?

  Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LTE_networks#Americas 
-- yes, it's Wikipedia, but your citation for CDMA vs. GSM was PC 
Magazine, and seems out of date for 2012.  I'll take my chances with at 
least a joke of peer review.

      Jima

From hpenner at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 09:06:57 2013
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:06:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone - tales of CDMA vs GSM
In-Reply-To: <F7CBEB311D2E474FB23B63E96E31EB25@d830a>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<FCE2FB39A3764E6FAD7753012F7346D5@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301211623020.7959@dragon>
	<D83464C7AD6B4D7080898D45CAB545B6@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301220016230.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<F7CBEB311D2E474FB23B63E96E31EB25@d830a>
Message-ID: <-2288249444057866220@unknownmsgid>

I use AT&T with several iPhones (kids!) and their speed has gotten
noticeably better over the past 2 years or so.

They have also rolled out a "mobileshare" plan where you pay for
shared volume, up to 12GB/mo I think...  I mention this because with
the new plan their strategy seems to be data-centric.  They've changed
from focusing on voice and penalizing data usage (e.g. per-phone plans
that only go to 2 or 3GB, throttling on "unlimited" plans, high
surcharge for tethering) to throwing in the voice & text and charging
based almost solely on data usage -- and encouraging data usage by
including "hotspot" tethering and using a clearer pay-for-usage-level
model.  To me that implies they're a lot more confident in their data
capacity than before.  Experience seems to be bearing that out so far.

AT&T's mobileshare plans are pretty pricey, though, especially if you
aren't spreading the cost over multiple phones.

Their coverage is very good in my experience but you pay a lot for it.
 We seem to keep our connections pretty well on our annual trip east
on I-94, FWIW.

-Harry

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:17, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:31 AM
>>
>> I would still like to hear if people are having good luck
>> with the AT&T data service around the Twin Cities (which
>> should mean 4G service).
>
> I hear it works fine but has data volume limits of several kinds.  Some
> providers (both AT&T, T-Mobile, no contract plans ..  et al?) have weasel
> wording about "data service included" but hide that it's capped.  A friend
> has AT&T with an expensive unlimited voice plan, but gets extra charges for
> exceeding their basic quotas for data and texting.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 10:49:12 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:49:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] T-Mobile data failure (was "Ubuntu Phone")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301221038390.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Michael Greenly wrote:
>
>> I wonder if the phone was having problems falling back go 2G?
>
> That's possible.  The phone could be bad.  It's a new Nexus 4.  I'm sure 
> I have all the settings right, though.
>
> The other thing is I get no data service in my home, not even 2G.


Someone else wrote off-list to tell me that he had data service in Madison 
back in October.  He wonders if there might be something wrong with my 
phone.  There could be something wrong with the phone (Nexus 4).  It 
definitely had working data service when I bought it, and at least on that 
first day I used it to navigate around town a little bit (actually to go 
pick up that $80 Kindle Fire).

The settings are correct -- so I don't have data turned off.  I agree that 
it is worse than expected.  I can't explain it.  I'll definitely drive 
around a little and see what it does before I return it.

If WiFi is on, and there is no WiFi signal, it should fall back to 
4G/3G/2G data connection, right?  I assume I don't have to turn off WiFi 
to get that to work.

I also had no data yesterday in the Cub Foods at E. Lake and 25th Ave S., 
so I couldn't Google a Red Box movie to see if I might like it.  Things 
like that shouldn't happen in a city of this size.

Mike

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Jan 22 11:35:57 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:35:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] T-Mobile data failure (was "Ubuntu Phone")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301221038390.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301221038390.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9CryAN6GieLMHZoh24GC8fgGeSoHr0B_FXPMV3kNFmhhw@mail.gmail.com>

> If WiFi is on, and there is no WiFi signal, it should fall back to
4G/3G/2G data connection, right?  I assume I don't have to turn off WiFi to
get that to work.
>
> I also had no data yesterday in the Cub Foods at E. Lake and 25th Ave S.,
so I couldn't Google a Red Box movie to see if I might like it.  Things
like that shouldn't happen in a city of this size.

if you wander into a wifi that your phone remembers that requires your to
press a submit button in your browser, other apps, like maps, will be stuck
meanwhile.  and there are definitely dead spots aplenty around town,
especially inside metallic structures..
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From florin at iucha.net  Tue Jan 22 11:43:40 2013
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:43:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20130122174340.GE11214@signbit.net>

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 01:40:02PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> I drove to Madison and back this weekend.  Along the way, I checked
> every few miles and I found that there was no point between the Twin
> Cities and Madison (on I-94) where I could get an internet
> connection with my T-Mobile Nexus 4 -- nothing, ever.  In Madison, I
> had no internet connection -- no G4, no G3, no G-anything, no
> internet service at all.

While not trying to refute your experience, I would like to note that
we passed through downtown Madison two summers ago, and we also spent
a night in a hotel close to I-94 in Madison last summer and we had
Internet access on our T-Mobile G2 phones (HTC-made).  I don't
remember the 4G/3G availability, but I believe I noted Edge (2G) only
once.  I know we had reasonable Internet access because we navigated
using the Google Maps/Navigation app.  Just another data point near
your poly-line, I know.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Beware of software written by optimists!
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Tue Jan 22 11:47:58 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:47:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] T-Mobile data failure (was "Ubuntu Phone")
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9CryAN6GieLMHZoh24GC8fgGeSoHr0B_FXPMV3kNFmhhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
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	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
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	<CAD+dB9CryAN6GieLMHZoh24GC8fgGeSoHr0B_FXPMV3kNFmhhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50FED0CE.2060608@me.com>

On 1/22/2013 11:35 AM, gregrwm wrote:
>
> > If WiFi is on, and there is no WiFi signal, it should fall back to 
> 4G/3G/2G data connection, right?  I assume I don't have to turn off 
> WiFi to get that to work.
> >
> > I also had no data yesterday in the Cub Foods at E. Lake and 25th 
> Ave S., so I couldn't Google a Red Box movie to see if I might like 
> it.  Things like that shouldn't happen in a city of this size.
>
> if you wander into a wifi that your phone remembers that requires your 
> to press a submit button in your browser, other apps, like maps, will 
> be stuck meanwhile.  and there are definitely dead spots aplenty 
> around town, especially inside metallic structures..
>

I'd bet that he's really just in possession of a bad phone.

If no WiFi it will go to Mobile - unless it has teamed up with an SSID. 
It's not going to multi-home you to the net. That's a massive battery draw.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 22 14:07:45 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:07:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
In-Reply-To: <50FE99C7.6060607@beer.tclug.org>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon><482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon><FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon><7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a><alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon><5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<50FE99C7.6060607@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <22CEB8C8F8904A06AD47AA6DD3A100FE@d830a>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Jima
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 7:53 AM

>   Chuck, it's pretty intellectually dishonest to dumb down
> this conversation to CDMA vs. GSM.

Not intellectually engaged in this opinion difference.

The reference I found stated the 5 of seven difference.

Enjoy your research, but this is not my hobby.

This topic was only about CDMA and GSM in present end-user products.


Chuck



From trieff at greencaremankato.com  Tue Jan 22 15:50:46 2013
From: trieff at greencaremankato.com (Thomas Rieff)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:50:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Lost Raid Drive...Now Grub???
In-Reply-To: <1769212557.85170.1358890887880.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>
Message-ID: <1735474430.85905.1358891446094.JavaMail.root@greencaremankato.com>

TCLUG, 
I had a drive fail in a server that is setup with Ubuntu Software Raid 1. 
Replaced the drive, partioned and reformatted. 
Plugged it in and it seemed to rebuild. 
I have 2 partitions on each. ! for / and one for swap. 
The swap would not add back in to the raid configuration. Said size to small. 
So went back in to resize the partiion and wiped out the boot record and now will not boot up. 
Using a Live CD was able to get a boot info script. 
Tried to re-add grub, said OK but now wants grub rescue??? 
Did I say this was an interesting learning experience :-) 
The drives are the same type and size. The partitions by number of blocks are still not exactly the same size. 
Could wipe it out and start over, but what fun is that. 
Any thoughts??? 
Tom 


Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 

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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 21:21:40 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:21:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subject: Re: Ubuntu Phone
Message-ID: <CABWFOjvMWex7PvrhGVFDcdzMtriuGrZrpO_Qobe5DL999WvQpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mike Miller:

> I've had a few warnings about Verizon, but I think they have good
> coverage.  I haven't been warned yet against AT&T.  I was hearing a lot of
> bad things about AT&T a few years ago, probably because the iPhone caused
> so many new users on their network, but I think they might have fixed
> that.  Any ideas?

Well for me with the tracfone I couldn't have duckduckgo'd
(www.duckduckgo.com) at the store.  I'd have had to wait till I was
back home.  That's fine.  Sometimes more careful research
from home pays off and I avoid a mistake.

I liked this story
http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_22373187/small-school-basketball-phenom-anders-broman-makes-his?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com

This quote was inspiring:
"I'm not a natural scorer," a sweat-stained Broman said after a
recent shooting workout. "I don't believe anything in life comes easy."


-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From mastercactapus at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 22:55:35 2013
From: mastercactapus at gmail.com (Nathan Caza)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:55:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
In-Reply-To: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <CAGtvEUBYS3CUscd1GtY-9wabAaeKen+nrHzcyA7xvTuH5jJrAA@mail.gmail.com>

+1 for Pi-Day!
also, for those that were not aware, at time of writing this contest is
still going on: http://freemrpi.shardme.com/


On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Brian Dolan-Goecke
<goeko at goecke-dolan.com>wrote:

> This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
> Saturday January 26th at TIES,
> 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
> from 10:00am to 12:00pm
> (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
> info.)
>
> This months Penguins Unbound Meeting will be an Open Q&A !
>
> Bring your question, and we will find some answers!
>
> A couple questions I have,
>   Should continue to have "Install Fests" ? or release Parties ?
>
>   Would people be interested in a Pi-Day ? A day full of Rasberry Pi
> Hacking! We would start out the the basics, with you and your Pi. Then have
> specific topics. You would bring your Pi and get time to hack, to allow you
> to learn and ask questions... (is someone who is associated with the a
> local hacker space able to attend so we could work together ?)
>
> Hope to see you at the meeting!
>
> *** Note: This months meeting will be in a different location, the 4th
> floor Board Room.  You should use the front Doors (the ones at the corner
> of Snelling and Larpenteur), and take the elevator to the 4th floor, then
> straight out the elevator to the board room. ** Please try to be there
> before 10:00 am, because the front doors will lock after 10:15. Thanks.
>
> ==>brian.
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From hmeyers4 at comcast.net  Tue Jan 22 23:11:00 2013
From: hmeyers4 at comcast.net (Hal Meyers)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:11:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
In-Reply-To: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <000c01cdf928$0917b890$1b4729b0$@net>

+1 again for Pi-Day. I just received mine this week.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Brian Dolan-Goecke
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:10 AM
To: tclug-list
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be Saturday January 26th at
TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 from 10:00am to 12:00pm (See the
web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This months Penguins Unbound Meeting will be an Open Q&A !

Bring your question, and we will find some answers!

A couple questions I have,
   Should continue to have "Install Fests" ? or release Parties ?

   Would people be interested in a Pi-Day ? A day full of Rasberry Pi
Hacking! We would start out the the basics, with you and your Pi. Then have
specific topics. You would bring your Pi and get time to hack, to allow you
to learn and ask questions... (is someone who is associated with the a local
hacker space able to attend so we could work together ?)

Hope to see you at the meeting!

*** Note: This months meeting will be in a different location, the 4th floor
Board Room.  You should use the front Doors (the ones at the corner of
Snelling and Larpenteur), and take the elevator to the 4th floor, then
straight out the elevator to the board room. ** Please try to be there
before 10:00 am, because the front doors will lock after 10:15. Thanks.

==>brian.
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 23:49:38 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:49:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] T-Mobile data failure (was "Ubuntu Phone")
In-Reply-To: <50FED0CE.2060608@me.com>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301221038390.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAD+dB9CryAN6GieLMHZoh24GC8fgGeSoHr0B_FXPMV3kNFmhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<50FED0CE.2060608@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301222042370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> I'd bet that he's really just in possession of a bad phone.
>
> If no WiFi it will go to Mobile - unless it has teamed up with an SSID. 
> It's not going to multi-home you to the net. That's a massive battery 
> draw.


Thanks to those of you who persisted in accusing my phone of causing the 
problem.  You were right.


I wondered what would happen if I were to reboot the phone.  It doesn't 
seem to have a reboot option, but it can be powered off and turned back 
on, so that's what I did.  When it came back on, I had 3G in my house. 
Before restarting, I had no data service in my house (unless I used my 
WiFi).

I wonder how often the phone needs to be restarted.  It wasn't giving me 
any data service in my home on the day I bought it.  I had no internet 
with my home wifi at that time.  I bought it one week ago today, so from a 
few hours after I bought it, until now, it was not working properly.

Now I can do speed tests at home.  The result is excellent.  I downloaded 
the speedtest.net app for Android and used that.

On the ground floor of my home, I see either 3G or H (I assume H is 
T-Mobile's HSPA+); it flips from one to the other.  These are the median 
results of three speed tests:

3G or H:

       ping:  700 ms
   download: 11.5 Mbps
     upload:  1.5 Mbps

That is very fast.  I even have some data service in the basement, but I 
see only "E" instead of 3G.  E seems to stand for EDGE.  This is what I 
get for speed:

E:

       ping: 600 ms
   download: 100 Kbps
     upload:  50 Kbps

Using the terminal window, with the 3G service, I tested the ping time to 
the server in my office, because that's the main ping time that will 
matter to me -- it showed a mean ping of 483 ms with 0% packet loss. 
That's not so great, but I probably won't be doing a lot of ssh to the 
office, so it might not matter.  The throughput is more important.

Surprisingly, the 3G gives a faster download time than my WiFi which has a 
very fast internet connection.  My laptop gets 35 Mbps to the internet on 
my WiFi, but this is what I see on the Nexus 4 phone:

WiFi:

       ping:  100 ms
   download: 10.0 Mbps
     upload: 14.8 Mbps

So the WiFi download speed is about 10% slower than 3G, but the WiFi 
upload speed is about 10 times faster than 3G and equal to what I see on 
my laptop.  I wonder why I don't see a faster download time with WiFi on 
the Nexus 4.  My guess is that its WiFi hardware just won't go faster than 
about 10.

One more thing -- I can use the Nexus 4 as a WiFi access point for my 
Ubuntu laptop.  Using 3G on the Nexus 4, I connect with the laptop and do 
pings and speed tests from the laptop.  I see basically the same as I saw 
with the 3G tests -- about 10 Mbps down and about 1.5 Mbps up.  That's a 
really cool feature, to say the least.  I also tried using VNC over an SSH 
tunnel on the laptop via the Android access point over 3G and it was quite 
comfortable to use, so the 500 ms pings weren't a big issue.


Obviously, this means that my opinion of T-Mobile just increased by leaps 
and bounds.  I'm still not going to pay $300 extra for the Nexus 4 -- they 
overcharged me -- but I probably will try to stick with this Nexus 4 
device and T-Mobile carrier.


Many thanks to all of you for your help with this!

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 02:04:13 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 02:04:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] T-Mobile data failure (was "Ubuntu Phone")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301222042370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuYgTRj06Fwuk+vPs5efJr+d390ou6dtNnFo3L7js8caQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181359040.2214@dragon>
	<482EBCE5E9F441B99969C50DBCEFECDD@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301181710020.30586@dragon>
	<FFC9BD3046FF4F4B965EAAFDA777FE92@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182103560.31413@dragon>
	<7E930D947FFA4470BC20B95C712A54A8@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1301182212110.31413@dragon>
	<5D7F99E081B344CE8697A2A8244325F3@d830a>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301211109020.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAChQk+NQXzLCrVTAvyLK-0-snEAYn3kknRhQMsRuuu6=162Oxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301212131370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301221038390.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAD+dB9CryAN6GieLMHZoh24GC8fgGeSoHr0B_FXPMV3kNFmhhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<50FED0CE.2060608@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301222042370.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301230134330.21764@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> One more thing -- I can use the Nexus 4 as a WiFi access point for my 
> Ubuntu laptop.  Using 3G on the Nexus 4, I connect with the laptop and 
> do pings and speed tests from the laptop.  I see basically the same as I 
> saw with the 3G tests -- about 10 Mbps down and about 1.5 Mbps up. 
> That's a really cool feature, to say the least.


After that I tried using a Windows 7 machine with it.  It worked too, so I 
now had two laptops connected to the Android 3G access point.  Then I made 
a 100 MB file on the Linux laptop and used pscp.exe to copy the file over 
to the Windows laptop.  That worked great and I was getting a little more 
than 18 Mbps throughput in the scp transfer, which should be fast enough 
to stream DVD ISOs, for example.

I'm sure the battery was being used pretty fast when the phone was acting 
as an access point.  Maybe it was using something like 20% of the battery 
per hour.  I will usually have it plugged in when I use it that way, 
probably in my car.

Mike

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 08:53:07 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:53:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Pros making more money
Message-ID: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thought people might be interested in this one.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025924/linux-pros-saw-a-giant-salary-leap-in-2012-dice.html

-Erik

--
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 09:02:24 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:02:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Pros making more money
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>

Nice to see.

The draw back is we typically work harder- most of my colleagues in an
enterprise environment won't touch Linux with a 10 foot pole, so that
means I'm called or paged for Unix related problems even if it isn't
tied to my primary IT Security role.

I'll be sure to bring up this article at review time ;-)

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thought people might be interested in this one.
>
> https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025924/linux-pros-saw-a-giant-salary-leap-in-2012-dice.html
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 09:13:29 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:13:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Pros making more money
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301230908340.27846@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thought people might be interested in this one.
>>
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025924/linux-pros-saw-a-giant-salary-leap-in-2012-dice.html
>
> Nice to see.
>
> The draw back is we typically work harder- most of my colleagues in an 
> enterprise environment won't touch Linux with a 10 foot pole ...

What are they using instead?

I'm wondering why the pay is increasing.  Maybe it's just because business 
is growing again and there is increasing demand for all sorts of computer 
workers.  Or are more companies starting to use Linux systems and Linux on 
the desktop?  If I were starting a company, I'd want it to be all Linux 
throughout.  Anyone who uses Windows our OS X can learn the Unity or 
Gnome, or whatever, environment in about two minutes.  Add one good Linux 
pro to keep it all running, and you're golden.

Mike

From ubusum at ymail.com  Wed Jan 23 10:01:22 2013
From: ubusum at ymail.com (Ubu Sumner)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:01:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
In-Reply-To: <000c01cdf928$0917b890$1b4729b0$@net>
References: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<000c01cdf928$0917b890$1b4729b0$@net>
Message-ID: <1358956882.583.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Where are you all getting your PIs? Or were you on the very delayed wait list all along?? (I briefly saw them bundled on the MicroCenter website before Christmas but didn't bite.)

It would be helpful to me to read short project previews of what people intend to bring in on their PIs, or short previews of what you intend to work on at the meeting. If I had a PI it might even be nice to download and try code before the meeting...

PI-less, so I guess I don't have any say though.
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From bradyh at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 10:34:52 2013
From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:34:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Pros making more money
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2DF1978-68AD-42C0-98AD-843903D8A77F@gmail.com>

My current job is very conservative  about software and hardware but it's just accepted practice here that any non-production non-desktop machines are Linux.  I'm happy that things have gotten to this point.

I think the desktop is a fragmenting issue.  Example:  I don't know what kind of OS my Bluetooth player uses (good chance it's Linux)...I know that I have to reboot the damn thing all the time but that's not the operating system's fault.

-Brady

On Jan 23, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nice to see.
> 
> The draw back is we typically work harder- most of my colleagues in an
> enterprise environment won't touch Linux with a 10 foot pole, so that
> means I'm called or paged for Unix related problems even if it isn't
> tied to my primary IT Security role.
> 
> I'll be sure to bring up this article at review time ;-)
> 
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thought people might be interested in this one.
>> 
>> https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025924/linux-pros-saw-a-giant-salary-leap-in-2012-dice.html
>> 
>> -Erik
>> 
>> --
>> Erik K. Mitchell
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 10:44:07 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:44:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Pros making more money
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301230908340.27846@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CANNReEG2ap-+5gLYCHcvJo4-F1OcY3vxFuYj6Tb92G2FhNtdnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0vktzGhxTm1_NGDYiaDiq_aOR1i0LS6f9nsKuwLzYfZA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301230908340.27846@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGjMo_+aO6BOVdtt=um8UBjLjixWc8dRkeJMM752Yn1ZA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I'm wondering why the pay is increasing.

I really don't think Linux on the desktop is a factor. Maybe it's just
me, but I haven't encountered any large managed IT environment that
has Linux as a supported desktop OS. Obviously the University is an
exception.

But as an enterprise server platform, it's become an absolute
standard. I've been doing web development in large enterprise
environments for a few years now. When you add up application servers,
database servers, web servers, in multiple stages (dev, integration,
test, staging, prod), you start talking about a lot of hosts.
Especially now considering we've moved to cloud computing and
virtualization, you start getting a lot of hosts. Somebody's got to be
able to manage all of those, especially when you're conducting
millions to billions of dollars of business on them.

Linux hosts are easy to multiply, but Linux operators are not :) So,
if you've got skills to effectively, reliably, and securely manage a
large number of hosts, you are a valuable commodity, because a lot of
business is taking place on this platform, and it's not going away any
time soon.

-Erik
--
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From hmeyers4 at comcast.net  Wed Jan 23 18:26:10 2013
From: hmeyers4 at comcast.net (Hal Meyers)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:26:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
In-Reply-To: <1358956882.583.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<000c01cdf928$0917b890$1b4729b0$@net>
	<1358956882.583.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003d01cdf9c9$690fac70$3b2f0550$@net>

I ordered mine from Lady Ada ( http://www.adafruit.com/category/105 ). I
just checked they still have stock. They are out of starter kits but you can
buy most of the components individually. If you buy the board, all you get
is a Raspberry Pi board. I also bought a Adafruit Pi T-Cobbler breakout kit
and a board edge mounting kit. I've just started playing with so it's a bit
unclear to me what to suggest for the meeting. 

 

 

 

From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ubu Sumner
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:01 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!

 

Where are you all getting your PIs? Or were you on the very delayed wait
list all along?? (I briefly saw them bundled on the MicroCenter website
before Christmas but didn't bite.)

 

It would be helpful to me to read short project previews of what people
intend to bring in on their PIs, or short previews of what you intend to
work on at the meeting. If I had a PI it might even be nice to download and
try code before the meeting...

 

PI-less, so I guess I don't have any say though.

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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Wed Jan 23 23:46:27 2013
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 23:46:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
In-Reply-To: <003d01cdf9c9$690fac70$3b2f0550$@net>
References: <50FE5775.3080705@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<000c01cdf928$0917b890$1b4729b0$@net>	<1358956882.583.YahooMailNeo@web125302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<003d01cdf9c9$690fac70$3b2f0550$@net>
Message-ID: <5100CAB3.2090107@Goecke-Dolan.com>

I plan to give people enough warning before Pi-Day so they can get a Pi 
to bring along and work with it. I don't expect to have Pi-Day before 
the April meeting... so that should give people a few months to get one.

Once I have speakers arranged I will be sure to let me know the topics. 
  Hopefully I can get a few with different topics and different types of 
projects.

That is my plan.

==>brian.

On 01/23/2013 06:26 PM, Hal Meyers wrote:
> I ordered mine from Lady Ada ( http://www.adafruit.com/category/105 ). I
> just checked they still have stock. They are out of starter kits but you
> can buy most of the components individually. If you buy the board, all
> you get is a Raspberry Pi board. I also bought a Adafruit Pi T-Cobbler
> breakout kit and a board edge mounting kit. I've just started playing
> with so it's a bit unclear to me what to suggest for the meeting.
>
> *From:*tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] *On Behalf Of *Ubu Sumner
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:01 AM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
>
> Where are you all getting your PIs? Or were you on the very delayed wait
> list all along?? (I briefly saw them bundled on the MicroCenter website
> before Christmas but didn't bite.)
>
> It would be helpful to me to read short project previews of what people
> intend to bring in on their PIs, or short previews of what you intend to
> work on at the meeting. If I had a PI it might even be nice to download
> and try code before the meeting...
>
> PI-less, so I guess I don't have any say though.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Thu Jan 24 14:37:37 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:37:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
Message-ID: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>

I'm amazed by the amount of innovation going on in the Linux world.

The Linux Mint team breathed new life into the once-flagging MATE project (a continuation of GNOME 2).  MATE has since spread into many other distros.

The Linux Mint team started the Cinnamon project to give GNOME 3 the look and feel of GNOME 2.  Cinnamon has since spread to competing distros.  Cinnarch uses Cinnamon as its default DE.

Mageia (forked from Mandriva) is the second distro to eclipse Ubuntu on Distrowatch.  Only Linux Mint ranks higher.

Several Arch Linux derivatives have popped up lately.  Just a year or so ago, I was wondering why there weren't Arch Linux derivatives.  Perhaps one of these Arch derivatives can be the Ubuntu or Mint of Arch Linux.

There is a new distro called ArchPup, which is Puppy Linux built from Arch Linux packages.  This is a sign of success for both Puppy Linux and Arch Linux.

All is not lost for Ubuntu, as people are still creating Ubuntu derivatives.  However, the controversial Unity interface still isn't gaining traction among desktop users.  Unlike MATE and Cinnamon, Unity hasn't been spreading to Ubuntu's competitors.  

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From joel.longanecker at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 14:47:11 2013
From: joel.longanecker at gmail.com (Joel Longanecker)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:47:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>

On the other hand, you have Fedora 18... What were they thinking ditching
Anaconda?

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I'm amazed by the amount of innovation going on in the Linux world.
>
> The Linux Mint team breathed new life into the once-flagging MATE project
> (a continuation of GNOME 2).  MATE has since spread into many other distros.
>
> The Linux Mint team started the Cinnamon project to give GNOME 3 the look
> and feel of GNOME 2.  Cinnamon has since spread to competing distros.
>  Cinnarch uses Cinnamon as its default DE.
>
> Mageia (forked from Mandriva) is the second distro to eclipse Ubuntu on
> Distrowatch.  Only Linux Mint ranks higher.
>
> Several Arch Linux derivatives have popped up lately.  Just a year or so
> ago, I was wondering why there weren't Arch Linux derivatives.  Perhaps one
> of these Arch derivatives can be the Ubuntu or Mint of Arch Linux.
>
> There is a new distro called ArchPup, which is Puppy Linux built from Arch
> Linux packages.  This is a sign of success for both Puppy Linux and Arch
> Linux.
>
> All is not lost for Ubuntu, as people are still creating Ubuntu
> derivatives.  However, the controversial Unity interface still isn't
> gaining traction among desktop users.  Unlike MATE and Cinnamon, Unity
> hasn't been spreading to Ubuntu's competitors.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 15:17:46 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:17:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO2Y-GDcbWdDLMUO-otEqTy+xHe21T09KLmPYJfB4qFE+g@mail.gmail.com>

Mate project is still going? It's been falling behind in Arch, I've
stuck with XFCE and will probably stay there.

Speaking of Arch variants, Manjaro is still going on too - manjaro.org.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> I'm amazed by the amount of innovation going on in the Linux world.
>
> The Linux Mint team breathed new life into the once-flagging MATE project (a continuation of GNOME 2).  MATE has since spread into many other distros.
>
> The Linux Mint team started the Cinnamon project to give GNOME 3 the look and feel of GNOME 2.  Cinnamon has since spread to competing distros.  Cinnarch uses Cinnamon as its default DE.
>
> Mageia (forked from Mandriva) is the second distro to eclipse Ubuntu on Distrowatch.  Only Linux Mint ranks higher.
>
> Several Arch Linux derivatives have popped up lately.  Just a year or so ago, I was wondering why there weren't Arch Linux derivatives.  Perhaps one of these Arch derivatives can be the Ubuntu or Mint of Arch Linux.
>
> There is a new distro called ArchPup, which is Puppy Linux built from Arch Linux packages.  This is a sign of success for both Puppy Linux and Arch Linux.
>
> All is not lost for Ubuntu, as people are still creating Ubuntu derivatives.  However, the controversial Unity interface still isn't gaining traction among desktop users.  Unlike MATE and Cinnamon, Unity hasn't been spreading to Ubuntu's competitors.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From droidjd at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 15:18:23 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:18:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>

It's still "Anaconda", actually.  Just a totally new version they
redesigned from the ground up.  :-P

Which reminds me that I need to go check it out...  I usually just upgrade
my Fedora through yum, but with this new introduction, I think I'll need to
do a fresh install.  Reading the design documents last week, it sounded
pretty nice.  Hopefully it resolves all the things that bothered me over
the years about Anaconda.

-Andrew


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Joel Longanecker <
joel.longanecker at gmail.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, you have Fedora 18... What were they thinking ditching
> Anaconda?
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>wrote:
>
>> I'm amazed by the amount of innovation going on in the Linux world.
>>
>> The Linux Mint team breathed new life into the once-flagging MATE project
>> (a continuation of GNOME 2).  MATE has since spread into many other distros.
>>
>> The Linux Mint team started the Cinnamon project to give GNOME 3 the look
>> and feel of GNOME 2.  Cinnamon has since spread to competing distros.
>>  Cinnarch uses Cinnamon as its default DE.
>>
>> Mageia (forked from Mandriva) is the second distro to eclipse Ubuntu on
>> Distrowatch.  Only Linux Mint ranks higher.
>>
>> Several Arch Linux derivatives have popped up lately.  Just a year or so
>> ago, I was wondering why there weren't Arch Linux derivatives.  Perhaps one
>> of these Arch derivatives can be the Ubuntu or Mint of Arch Linux.
>>
>> There is a new distro called ArchPup, which is Puppy Linux built from
>> Arch Linux packages.  This is a sign of success for both Puppy Linux and
>> Arch Linux.
>>
>> All is not lost for Ubuntu, as people are still creating Ubuntu
>> derivatives.  However, the controversial Unity interface still isn't
>> gaining traction among desktop users.  Unlike MATE and Cinnamon, Unity
>> hasn't been spreading to Ubuntu's competitors.
>>
>> --
>> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 15:29:58 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:29:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO2Y-GDcbWdDLMUO-otEqTy+xHe21T09KLmPYJfB4qFE+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CACEdYO2Y-GDcbWdDLMUO-otEqTy+xHe21T09KLmPYJfB4qFE+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KX0MB4mSa7R6c0_eWTr+pSfp3WmN4MGydoDJ+613HhWkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mate project is still going? It's been falling behind in Arch, I've
> stuck with XFCE and will probably stay there.
>

Mate is going well enough that I installed it when I did a Debian install
in late December. The only thing that's not working for me is that the
music-applet is nowhere to be found (to control Rhythmbox from the panel).

I'll probably keep using it until it gets too crufty and difficult to
install.

--
Michael Moore
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From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Thu Jan 24 16:52:32 2013
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:52:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59d750f1ed9454346e5c533af43839ce@flyballdogs.com>

 

On 2013-01-24 15:18, Andrew Dahl wrote: 

> It's still "Anaconda",
actually. Just a totally new version they redesigned from the ground up.
:-P
> 
> Which reminds me that I need to go check it out... I usually
just upgrade my Fedora through yum, but with this new introduction, I
think I'll need to do a fresh install. Reading the design documents last
week, it sounded pretty nice. Hopefully it resolves all the things that
bothered me over the years about Anaconda.

preuprade has been replaced
by fedup. install fedup via yum in f17, then run fedup --network 18, and
reboot. 

It worked great on two machines I used it on including one
that is a remote server that I don't have console access to.

--

Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com
 
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From droidjd at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 17:11:36 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:11:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <59d750f1ed9454346e5c533af43839ce@flyballdogs.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
	<59d750f1ed9454346e5c533af43839ce@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdwt1LxXUaHpG9Ai9TuFX6W5kitqzTmED4pj2=BWoFNA_A@mail.gmail.com>

Oh nice!

I used to forgo preupgrade and just manually do it through yum.  (point to
new repos, install the latest release, yum, rpm, and then do a yum
update... wait an eternity and reboot.)  I only used preupgrade... maybe
twice (~3 years ago) and wasn't satisfied with it.  Sounds like fedup fixes
what dissatisfied me though.

I think I'll go ahead with fedup tonight on my work laptop to check it out.
 Thanks for the tip, Kathryn!

-Andrew


On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Kathryn Hogg <kjh at flyballdogs.com> wrote:

> **
>
> On 2013-01-24 15:18, Andrew Dahl wrote:
>
>  It's still "Anaconda", actually.  Just a totally new version they
> redesigned from the ground up.  :-P
>
> Which reminds me that I need to go check it out...  I usually just upgrade
> my Fedora through yum, but with this new introduction, I think I'll need to
> do a fresh install.  Reading the design documents last week, it sounded
> pretty nice.  Hopefully it resolves all the things that bothered me over
> the years about Anaconda.
>
>  preuprade has been replaced by fedup.  install fedup via yum in f17, then run fedup --network 18, and reboot.
>
> It worked great on two machines I used it on including one that is a remote server that I don't have console access to.
>
> --
> Kathryn Hogghttp://womensfooty.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jan 24 17:24:00 2013
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:24:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 03:18:23PM -0600, Andrew Dahl wrote:
> It's still "Anaconda", actually.  Just a totally new version they
> redesigned from the ground up.  :-P

   http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

   "Before Borland's new spreadsheet for Windows shipped, Philippe
   Kahn, the colorful founder of Borland, was quoted a lot in the
   press bragging about how Quattro Pro would be much better than
   Microsoft Excel, because it was written from scratch. All new
   source code! As if source code rusted."

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Beware of software written by optimists!
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From eng at pinenet.com  Thu Jan 24 17:38:49 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:38:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <5101C609.1000109@pinenet.com>

I agree that change is not always good.

Using opensuse 11.3 with the repositories discs from osdisc.com I'm 
re-discovering IBM's Visualization Data Explorer (opendx.org) for the 
N'th time in over a decade. The incredible graphic analysis tool takes a 
long time to learn. Thankfully, Motif is now open source and OpenDx runs 
beautifully on IceWM with modern displays.

When they switched from StarOffice5.2 to the fragmented OpenOffice it 
messed up my efforts to learn StarBasic, but they have really put that 
back together.

As for Borland, I'm still taken with FreePascal that has wisely grown 
around the Borland TurboPascal core. A truly great programming language, 
among the many others on Linux.

Linux has some incredible tools that are not toys. An operating system 
like this should not compete with a simple stereo CD player, or movie 
DVD player.

I placed a new order to OSDiscs.com, this time for the 7 DVD opensuse 
12.2 set. At 60 years old I'll be 70 before I test it out and need an 
upgrade.

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 03:18:23PM -0600, Andrew Dahl wrote:
>> It's still "Anaconda", actually.  Just a totally new version they
>> redesigned from the ground up.  :-P
>
>     http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
>
>     "Before Borland's new spreadsheet for Windows shipped, Philippe
>     Kahn, the colorful founder of Borland, was quoted a lot in the
>     press bragging about how Quattro Pro would be much better than
>     Microsoft Excel, because it was written from scratch. All new
>     source code! As if source code rusted."
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 14:22:38 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:22:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301241421170.2552@bacon.evil-empire.local>

Florin Iucha cried from the depths of the abyss...
>
>   "Before Borland's new spreadsheet for Windows shipped, Philippe
>   Kahn, the colorful founder of Borland, was quoted a lot in the
>   press bragging about how Quattro Pro would be much better than
>   Microsoft Excel, because it was written from scratch. All new
>   source code! As if source code rusted."

Sounds like a case of rewriteitis.









From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Jan 25 00:39:25 2013
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:39:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] *Saturday* Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th 2013!
Message-ID: <5102289D.7010105@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday January 26th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This months Penguins Unbound Meeting will be an Open Q&A !

Bring your question, and we will find some answers!

A couple questions I have,
   Should continue to have "Install Fests" ? or release Parties ?

   Would people be interested in a Pi-Day ? A day full of Rasberry Pi 
Hacking! We would start out the the basics, with you and your Pi. Then 
have specific topics. You would bring your Pi and get time to hack, to 
allow you to learn and ask questions... (is someone who is associated 
with the a local hacker space able to attend so we could work together ?)

Hope to see you at the meeting!

*** Note: This months meeting will be in a different location, the 4th 
floor Board Room.  You should use the front Doors (the ones at the 
corner of Snelling and Larpenteur), and take the elevator to the 4th 
floor, then straight out the elevator to the board room. ** Please try 
to be there before 10:00 am, because the front doors will lock after 
10:15. Thanks.

==>brian.

From chrome at real-time.com  Fri Jan 25 08:08:47 2013
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:08:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
References: <20130124143737.db60598636b1e94a6f1c06f5@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOusT-9=Z6RvpGDi7gRy6Ef4enrPpN7BDrb6jB6BC=h0CXfeDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFjzMdzTBbji+UVLCp4LANq1NmDCWCLmyXX46Lvs5cDALnCceg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130124232400.GB19402@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <20130125140847.GO71720@real-time.com>

On 01/24 05:24 , Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 03:18:23PM -0600, Andrew Dahl wrote:
>    http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

Thanks for posting this Florin, there's some good wisdom in there. I haven't
read it since it was originally posted way back in 2000. It's a sort of grim
nostalgia to think of the days of Netscape 6 (and what crap it was).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 26 12:51:06 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 13:51:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
Message-ID: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>

Andrew Dahl:

> Oh nice!
>
> I used to forgo preupgrade and just manually do it through yum.  (point >
to
> new repos, install the latest release, yum, rpm, and then do a yum
> update... wait an eternity and reboot.)  I only used preupgrade... maybe
> twice (~3 years ago) and wasn't satisfied with it.  Sounds like fedup
> fixes what dissatisfied me though.
>
> I think I'll go ahead with fedup tonight on my work laptop to check it
out.
> Thanks for the tip, Kathryn!

Thanks for the tip also.  I used fedup on two machines now.
The biggest thing that tripped me up was that they are
using something called firewalld in Fedora 18.  That took
me hours to figure out unfortunately.  I also lost my firefox
bookmarks.  Not a big deal, but would be nice if that didn't
happen.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises -- so far G-d has helped us.
http://webEbenezer.net          (651) 251-9384
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 26 13:33:31 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 14:33:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuJb0QDZzoxexm1Z=OKw7hg7Xf7_DOcmGrJZRwh8En6ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  I also lost my firefox bookmarks.  Not a big deal, but would
>
be nice if that didn't happen.
>
>
I guess I didn't lose the bookmarks.  I had an xfce configuration
problem of some sort.  I removed the .config/xfce4 subdirectory
and now things are working.

I forgot to mention that I had to use yum to remove and reinstall
apache after running fedup.   The problem seemed to be an
out-of-date httpd.conf.

>

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises -- making programming fun again.
http://webEbenezer.net           (651) 251-9384
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From tclug at mikerochford.com  Sun Jan 27 14:07:55 2013
From: tclug at mikerochford.com (Mike Rochford)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:07:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless Access
	Point
Message-ID: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>

All,

I have a Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless access point for sale.

Looking to get 35 bucks for it. Please let me know if you are interested.

Supports 2.4 b+g

Comes with the WAP + power supply + cisco console cable.

http://tinyurl.com/b3v5pyv

Thanks,

-Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 15:12:30 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:12:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless
 Access Point
In-Reply-To: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Mike Rochford wrote:

> I have a Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless access point for sale.
>
> Looking to get 35 bucks for it. Please let me know if you are 
> interested.
>
> Supports 2.4 b+g
>
> Comes with the WAP + power supply + cisco console cable.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/b3v5pyv


For my edification -- I know nothing really about the different wireless 
router brands...

What makes this router better than, say, the D-Link wireless N router I 
bought in December at Micro Center for $30 (and left in Ecuador).  Is it 
the range?  It doesn't do 802.11n, right?  Is it faster than 300 Mbps?

I thought maybe it had to do with the 2.4, but that means 2.4 GHz, right? 
And doesn't everything run at 2.4 GHz?  This article says 'yes':

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/09/wireless-explainer/

Mike

From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 15:46:38 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:46:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless
	Access Point
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CADdM08pnaNthG7qzk9YY2ik5Xa14b7NBTFwhdOBBq0h++fwAVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> What makes this router better than, say, the D-Link wireless N router I
> bought in December at Micro Center for $30 (and left in Ecuador).  Is it the
> range?  It doesn't do 802.11n, right?  Is it faster than 300 Mbps?

For home use, there likely wouldn't be any difference at all, aside
from the Cisco being more complicated to configure.

For business/enterprise use, though, the Cisco offers *much* more
flexibility and *much* better performance than consumer-grade
equipment. Hardware-wise, it'll have more RAM, a faster processor, and
better radios. Software-wise, the Cisco will offer many more features
that are essential in larger deployments (central management via a
wireless controller, 802.1q support, QoS, radius/802.1x, SNMP, config
via ssh, greater stability and performance under load, etc.).

Regarding range, you need to remember that wireless is a two-way
street. While it may be possible to turn up the TX power on the AP
side, that doesn't help the signal from the client get back to the AP.
Several third-party AP firmwares allow you to turn up the TX power
(DD-WRT, Tomato, etc.), but this is generally ill-advised except in a
few limited circumstances. In addition to the client range issue,
turning up transmit power can not only reduce the linearity of of the
finals, introducing distortion into the RF signal, but also can push
the SWR[1] up over what the finals can handle, putting them at risk of
burning out.

-Erik
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave_ratio

From kc0iog at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 15:47:20 2013
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:47:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless
	Access Point
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>

> For my edification -- I know nothing really about the different wireless
> router brands...
>
> What makes this router better than, say, the D-Link wireless N router I
> bought in December at Micro Center for $30 (and left in Ecuador).  Is it the
> range?  It doesn't do 802.11n, right?  Is it faster than 300 Mbps?

It's a B/G only, but the key is that it's an enterprise class AP with
enterprise class features.  I have a 1231 that I use specifically
because it handles VLAN trunking in a much better manner than a
Walmart type AP running dd-wrt.  The hardware is designed to properly
segregate out layer 2 etc.  If you like buying Cisco licenses, you can
even deploy a wireless controller and manage your fleet of Cisco APs
as one contiguous wifi fabric.

The Cisco AP is just that, an AP.  It is not a router.  It doesn't not
have a built in switch.  It won't hand out DHCP and DNS settings to
your clients.  It's just an AP.  But a darn good one.

> I thought maybe it had to do with the 2.4, but that means 2.4 GHz, right?
> And doesn't everything run at 2.4 GHz?  This article says 'yes':

B and G run at 2.4 Ghz, yes.  There's an allotment of the spectrum to
allow consumer devices to run in a specific range of 2.4 Ghz
frequencies.  802.11 gear has an interesting property though, it is
allowed to run outside of the consumer band.  Channels 11 and higher
are actually borrowed form the ham bands, which means that cordless
phones and other problem devices can't interfere (well, sorta... it's
not as bad anyway).

N runs at 5.something Ghz, which IIRC is another "consumer" allotted
space.  Generally speaking, the higher the frequency, the more
bandwidth available for a given carrier signal.  A carrier at 5 Ghz
has significantly more bandwidth than a 2.4 Ghz carrier, meaning
potentially faster transmission speeds.  In the end, all APs have to
run at the same frequencies, otherwise how would your wifi card work
at all?  A Cisco AP and a Linksys AP have to run at the same
frequencies for your Dlink wifi card to use them both.

So if you have an existing network infrastructure and you want a
solid, manageable AP, this is a good one to get.  If the
Router/firewall/AP you bought from Best Buy IS your infrastructure,
well... maybe this isn't going to help you a lot.  Pick the right tool
for the job.

Brian

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 17:20:32 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:20:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] laptop/netbook wireless signal strength (was "For
 Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless Access Point")
In-Reply-To: <CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271702360.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Thanks to everyone for the explanations.  The note about two-way 
communication is very important and something I haven't been thinking 
about enough -- it isn't just that the computer can "hear" the wireless 
router, but it also has to have the power to be heard by it effectively.

This reminds me that I wanted to ask what you know about the wireless 
capabilities of various laptops and netbooks.  It seems to me that my 
recently-purchased HP Pavilion g7-2022us does nowhere near as well as my 
Asus Eee 1005HA at maintaining a connection to a wireless router.  If the 
signal seems weak, the the HP is having trouble, I can use the Asus.  Is 
that because of reception or transmission?  Has this been measured for 
various machines with results posted to the web?  It is a very important 
aspect of performance, but I have never read specs on this and I can't 
find any now.  I'm disappointed that the HP performs so poorly compared to 
the much cheaper and older Asus.

I remember that Negroponte's XO (OLPC) laptop was supposed to do perform 
well with a weak signal (despite its low price).  I saw him say on a TV 
interview that this good performance was "because of the ears" (also known 
as wifi antennas).  Here are the ears:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/image_maps/07/1179000000/1179824483/img/navigation2_416.gif

This led me to ask myself an obvious question:  Where are my ears?  None 
of my laptop/netbooks have external ears.  How good are their internal 
ears and how do they compare with those of the OLPC XO-1+ machines?  I 
want numbers!  ;-)

Mike

From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 17:57:46 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:57:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] laptop/netbook wireless signal strength (was "For
 Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless Access Point")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271702360.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271702360.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CADdM08rL83NMqPsGuY4+W_=gLxp1F8r=6kyQ82y_y39UVCuWzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This reminds me that I wanted to ask what you know about the wireless
> capabilities of various laptops and netbooks.  It seems to me that my
> recently-purchased HP Pavilion g7-2022us does nowhere near as well as my
> Asus Eee 1005HA at maintaining a connection to a wireless router.  If the
> signal seems weak, the the HP is having trouble, I can use the Asus.  Is
> that because of reception or transmission?  Has this been measured for
> various machines with results posted to the web?  It is a very important
> aspect of performance, but I have never read specs on this and I can't find
> any now.  I'm disappointed that the HP performs so poorly compared to the
> much cheaper and older Asus.

This sort of thing is quite hard to pin down. The performance
discrepancy could be caused by any one (or multiple) of the following:

- radio hardware
- antenna design
- antenna placement
- internal RF interference within the laptop body
- Wifi chipset firmware issues
- sub-par OS WLAN drivers
- etc. etc.

> This led me to ask myself an obvious question:  Where are my ears?  None of
> my laptop/netbooks have external ears.  How good are their internal ears and
> how do they compare with those of the OLPC XO-1+ machines?  I want numbers!
> ;-)

In most situations, the presence or absence of external antennas is
neither here nor there. At 2.4 and 5GHz, antennas do not need to be
all that long. The wavelength of 2.4GHz signals is around 125mm and
5GHz, about 60mm. Figure a half or quarter-wave antenna, and you don't
need all that much space. Frequently laptop manufactures will route
wifi antennas to the top of the display panel. In Apple's case, I
believe they put the Wifi and bluetooth antennas in the hinge area of
the body, as that's the only non-metal (read: RF transparent) part of
the laptop.

-Erik

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan 27 19:39:14 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:39:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Explaining 802.11n and interference
In-Reply-To: <CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5105D6C2.6020201@me.com>

On 1/27/2013 3:47 PM, Brian Wall wrote:
> N runs at 5.something Ghz, which IIRC is another "consumer" allotted
> space.
N runs in 2.4 and 5.0-6.1GHz. Why? That's a long story but the small 2.4 
range is shared with air conditioners, motors, microwaves, bluetooth, 
etc. RFI is very common right now.

5.0-6.1? Why so big? The channels are wider (20MHz and 40MHz for bonded 
channels) but right smack freaking dab in the middle of that range is 
the FAA's RADAR reporting array. How conventient. Channels (off the top 
of my head here) 48-150 are in that range and if a blip comes in on it 
the AP is required to open that frequency up for 30 minutes. It happens 
a lot and is VERY annoying.

I could explain more but I would recommend, for reading purposes, you 
find Xirrus' explanations because they have managed to make this more 
down to earth and understandable.

I have dual-band routers all over my apartment. I run my computers on 
5.0 and my devices on 2.4. They are all 802.11n.

Interference sucks.

--
Ryan Coleman
Wireless Internet Deployment guy for a small cabling company - MN State 
Fair is my largest customer (we have 24 radios in the Grandstand, 16 at 
the Coliseum, and a few security-based APs around the property).

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 19:56:04 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:56:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Explaining 802.11n and interference
In-Reply-To: <5105D6C2.6020201@me.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5105D6C2.6020201@me.com>
Message-ID: <5105DAB4.10903@gmail.com>

On 1/27/2013 7:39 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote::
> On 1/27/2013 3:47 PM, Brian Wall wrote:
>> N runs at 5.something Ghz, which IIRC is another "consumer" allotted
>> space.
> N runs in 2.4 and 5.0-6.1GHz. Why? That's a long story but the small 2.4
> range is shared with air conditioners, motors, microwaves, bluetooth,
> etc. RFI is very common right now.
>
> 5.0-6.1? Why so big? The channels are wider (20MHz and 40MHz for bonded
> channels) but right smack freaking dab in the middle of that range is
> the FAA's RADAR reporting array. How conventient. Channels (off the top
> of my head here) 48-150 are in that range and if a blip comes in on it
> the AP is required to open that frequency up for 30 minutes. It happens
> a lot and is VERY annoying.
>
> I could explain more but I would recommend, for reading purposes, you
> find Xirrus' explanations because they have managed to make this more
> down to earth and understandable.
>
> I have dual-band routers all over my apartment. I run my computers on
> 5.0 and my devices on 2.4. They are all 802.11n.
>
> Interference sucks.
>

I feel it's worth mentioning that the 5.0Ghz have several advantages 
over the 2.4Ghz, but has a more limited range.  This can be a deal 
breaker depending on your situation.

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan 27 20:09:01 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:09:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Explaining 802.11n and interference
In-Reply-To: <5105DAB4.10903@gmail.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
	<5105D6C2.6020201@me.com> <5105DAB4.10903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A5D92E4-228B-4E9B-AEC2-FDD3E5099667@me.com>

So can microwaves and refrigerators and buildings built before 1950. 



--
Ryan Coleman
ryanjcole at me.com
m. 651.373.5015
o. 612.568.2749

On Jan 27, 2013, at 19:56, B-o-B De Mars <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/27/2013 7:39 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote::
>> On 1/27/2013 3:47 PM, Brian Wall wrote:
>>> N runs at 5.something Ghz, which IIRC is another "consumer" allotted
>>> space.
>> N runs in 2.4 and 5.0-6.1GHz. Why? That's a long story but the small 2.4
>> range is shared with air conditioners, motors, microwaves, bluetooth,
>> etc. RFI is very common right now.
>> 
>> 5.0-6.1? Why so big? The channels are wider (20MHz and 40MHz for bonded
>> channels) but right smack freaking dab in the middle of that range is
>> the FAA's RADAR reporting array. How conventient. Channels (off the top
>> of my head here) 48-150 are in that range and if a blip comes in on it
>> the AP is required to open that frequency up for 30 minutes. It happens
>> a lot and is VERY annoying.
>> 
>> I could explain more but I would recommend, for reading purposes, you
>> find Xirrus' explanations because they have managed to make this more
>> down to earth and understandable.
>> 
>> I have dual-band routers all over my apartment. I run my computers on
>> 5.0 and my devices on 2.4. They are all 802.11n.
>> 
>> Interference sucks.
> 
> I feel it's worth mentioning that the 5.0Ghz have several advantages over the 2.4Ghz, but has a more limited range.  This can be a deal breaker depending on your situation.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Jan 27 20:54:12 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:54:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
Message-ID: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>

I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?

As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.

Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile diesel engine.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan 27 20:55:40 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:55:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <5105E8AC.6010100@me.com>

On 1/27/2013 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu wrote:
> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
I am NOT surprised that's all you really had to say about Windows 8.

I will say this: I haven't used it. I have a tablet for work (using it 
right now) but it will never run 8. But I won't call it rubbish.

Did you actually say anything useful, Jason? It doesn't look like it.

From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 21:41:59 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:41:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08oUDzjPDrH-XiGbjQxe3jGV2SBdqxJr=DbH63oLTyEqvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux Mint, Puppy Linux,
> and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I felt completely out to sea.

I posit that you (nor 95% of TCLUG list members) may not be
Microsoft's target market for Windows 8.

> There were some Windows 7 computers there as well, and Windows 7 (at least in the
> configuration I saw) didn't look that different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS
> I have significant experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP
> or 7 will like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.

The "blocky" Metro UI seems to be the main point of consternation, and
from what I understand, that is fairly easy to disable. I'd imagine
that most corporate IT departments will just disable Metro via a Group
Policy. As for home users, well, they have a remarkable ability to
figure things out. The vast majority of "laypeople" deal with major OS
UI changes each time they buy a new computer anyway, so while the Win8
UI is quite different, it's not insurmountably so for most of
Microsoft's customers.

Look, Microsoft isn't stupid. They have many *very* smart people
working for them, some of which contributed in a significant way to
the Windows 8 UI changes. Some say that MS overreached with their
changes, but IMHO a year or two from now, we'll all look back on this
as a small blip on an tech radar that's cluttered with many other more
interesting things to discuss and marvel about.

UI aside, I must complement Microsoft for the progress they've made
with regards to security and stability over the last couple OS
releases. I've been fortunate in my career to be charged with
maintaining significant numbers of both Windows and Linux servers, so
I've gotten to see the good, the bad, and the ugly of both, and
believe me, *both* Linux and Windows have provided each their fair
share of security vulnerabilities, instability, and headaches through
the years.

-Erik

From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 21:45:57 2013
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:45:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Nice timing, Jason.  I just dove into Windows 8 this weekend myself.  I'm
in the process of building out a new desktop gaming system.  My old system
had an OEM version of Win 7 Pro - which means I'm technically not allowed
to move the environment so that it's running on a new motherboard.
 Technical legalese aside - I'm not sure I could have transplanted that
environment into 2+ generations new hardware anyway.  I went to Best But to
get a new version of Win 7 Pro to install and discovered that M$ has
completely swept Win 7 under the rug - all retail outlets have Windows 8
now.  Bummer.  BUT - it's on sale at a steep discount through the end of
January.  Honestly - anyone who might update to Win 8 later might want to
snag a copy of Windows 8 now while the prices are low and keep it stashed
away.

Having heard little good about Windows 8 I walked back out to my car
without buying it.  My thought was to try another PC store that could well
have Windows 7 in stock.  But then I decided "time moves forward - windows
7 will one day die.  Maybe I should read up on Windows 8."  So I pulled out
my walled-garden iPhone (ha!) and started searching for reviews of Windows
8 (yay for irony!).  I read about four reviews.  At first my focus was on
gaming, and it turns out that Windows 8 will deliver a 1-2% increase in
performance for gaming.  So that's a wash.  BUT - they memory allocation
unit in the OS now allocates memory randomly, which apparently thwarts most
of the attacks against device drivers and such that previous versions of
windows were susceptible too.  This apparently is pointing to a brighter
future for online gaming in terms of making it harder for people to cheat.

I then found a review on Toms Hardware for Windows 8 - it was a 20-page
technical review.  I read the whole thing on my tiny iPhone screen and then
walked into Best Buy and picked up a copy of Win 8 Pro.  That review did a
great job of conceptually explaining the design of the Windows 8 UI.  And
while that start-screen is dramatically different, it turns out everything
you had in previous versions is really still there.  Except often the
changes are for the better.  Probably the biggest thing to remember is that
the "classic desktop" is just an app.  However, you can get to it any-time
by chording "Windows-D".  So - if you're in an app and want to jump back to
the desk top - there you go.

My biggest hurdle was finding the power management options so I could
configure the system to not go to sleep.  I actually had to google that
one, but the fix was easy.  At the start window, just right-click, and then
choose "view all".  The start window will expand to show all of the things
you could possibly care about - including the classic control-panel, which
apparently is the only way to get to the power management options.  Once I
figured that out, I've been able to find my way to every knob I could want
to turn.

The Tom Hardware reviewer started out his review with a bearish view of
Windows 8, and at the end of his thorough examination was left with
grudging appreciation and gave it a "Recommended Buy" rating.  Having
played around with it now for a few days I'm getting comfortable with it,
and I'm finding I'm actually enjoying it. Obviously M$ is going in the
direction of Apple.  There's an App store, Adobe Reader opens as a
full-screen app (I actually prefer that), etc...  Also, as key individuals
at Valve have noted Windows is becoming "less open".  But none-the-less, as
I get increasingly comfortable with it I'm finding I rather like it.

In response to your last paragraph, Jason, I'll note that I saw a lot of
people online poo-poohing Windows 8 simply from the standpoint that M$'s
pattern for OS releases is "awful-good-awful-good," and that win7 was good,
so Win 8 is obviously awful.  It's different, but not awful.  It's the
biggest thing to happen to Windows since... Windows.  But it's not quite
the paradigm shift I feared it would be.  It's obviously still an non-posix
OS and for software development is probably not a place I want to live - I
much prefer Linux/Mac OS X... but it's not an Oldsmobile Diesel. :)

-Rob

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows
> 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
>
> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux
> Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I
> felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as
> well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that
> different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant
> experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will
> like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.
>
> Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.
>  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down
> in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile
> diesel engine.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Jan 27 21:47:28 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:47:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85232757-4DD3-40AA-BC8C-4E1FB43D1BCF@me.com>

Microcenter had win 7 as of three weeks ago. 

Love the misinformation. 

--
Ryan Coleman

On Jan 27, 2013, at 21:45, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Nice timing, Jason.  I just dove into Windows 8 this weekend myself.  I'm in the process of building out a new desktop gaming system.  My old system had an OEM version of Win 7 Pro - which means I'm technically not allowed to move the environment so that it's running on a new motherboard.  Technical legalese aside - I'm not sure I could have transplanted that environment into 2+ generations new hardware anyway.  I went to Best But to get a new version of Win 7 Pro to install and discovered that M$ has completely swept Win 7 under the rug - all retail outlets have Windows 8 now.  Bummer.  BUT - it's on sale at a steep discount through the end of January.  Honestly - anyone who might update to Win 8 later might want to snag a copy of Windows 8 now while the prices are low and keep it stashed away.  
> 
> Having heard little good about Windows 8 I walked back out to my car without buying it.  My thought was to try another PC store that could well have Windows 7 in stock.  But then I decided "time moves forward - windows 7 will one day die.  Maybe I should read up on Windows 8."  So I pulled out my walled-garden iPhone (ha!) and started searching for reviews of Windows 8 (yay for irony!).  I read about four reviews.  At first my focus was on gaming, and it turns out that Windows 8 will deliver a 1-2% increase in performance for gaming.  So that's a wash.  BUT - they memory allocation unit in the OS now allocates memory randomly, which apparently thwarts most of the attacks against device drivers and such that previous versions of windows were susceptible too.  This apparently is pointing to a brighter future for online gaming in terms of making it harder for people to cheat.  
> 
> I then found a review on Toms Hardware for Windows 8 - it was a 20-page technical review.  I read the whole thing on my tiny iPhone screen and then walked into Best Buy and picked up a copy of Win 8 Pro.  That review did a great job of conceptually explaining the design of the Windows 8 UI.  And while that start-screen is dramatically different, it turns out everything you had in previous versions is really still there.  Except often the changes are for the better.  Probably the biggest thing to remember is that the "classic desktop" is just an app.  However, you can get to it any-time by chording "Windows-D".  So - if you're in an app and want to jump back to the desk top - there you go.  
> 
> My biggest hurdle was finding the power management options so I could configure the system to not go to sleep.  I actually had to google that one, but the fix was easy.  At the start window, just right-click, and then choose "view all".  The start window will expand to show all of the things you could possibly care about - including the classic control-panel, which apparently is the only way to get to the power management options.  Once I figured that out, I've been able to find my way to every knob I could want to turn.  
> 
> The Tom Hardware reviewer started out his review with a bearish view of Windows 8, and at the end of his thorough examination was left with grudging appreciation and gave it a "Recommended Buy" rating.  Having played around with it now for a few days I'm getting comfortable with it, and I'm finding I'm actually enjoying it. Obviously M$ is going in the direction of Apple.  There's an App store, Adobe Reader opens as a full-screen app (I actually prefer that), etc...  Also, as key individuals at Valve have noted Windows is becoming "less open".  But none-the-less, as I get increasingly comfortable with it I'm finding I rather like it. 
> 
> In response to your last paragraph, Jason, I'll note that I saw a lot of people online poo-poohing Windows 8 simply from the standpoint that M$'s pattern for OS releases is "awful-good-awful-good," and that win7 was good, so Win 8 is obviously awful.  It's different, but not awful.  It's the biggest thing to happen to Windows since... Windows.  But it's not quite the paradigm shift I feared it would be.  It's obviously still an non-posix OS and for software development is probably not a place I want to live - I much prefer Linux/Mac OS X... but it's not an Oldsmobile Diesel. :)  
> 
> -Rob
> 
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
>> 
>> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.
>> 
>> Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile diesel engine.
>> 
>> --
>> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From bradyh at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 23:04:47 2013
From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:04:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <8A6ECD2C-44BB-4CCF-8178-D25EACD814A2@gmail.com>

On the one hand...yeah, bleah...though Windows 8 isn't all that different from setting up icons on your desktop to run commonly used programs.  Also, hit the windows button on your keyboard and bam you're back in the familiar (Windows 7) territory...which is more than I can say for Gnome 3.  :-/

On Jan 27, 2013, at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
> 
> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.
> 
> Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile diesel engine.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 23:47:23 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:47:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <8A6ECD2C-44BB-4CCF-8178-D25EACD814A2@gmail.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
	<8A6ECD2C-44BB-4CCF-8178-D25EACD814A2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH5pVyTAm4KCXoX=SMYd6QXC94kc6iTBJn6DbjusMCZ6Q@mail.gmail.com>

This discussion reminds me of a project called Litestep
(http://www.litestep.net/), which you could use to replace the Windows
Explorer shell on top of Windows XP. I used it for a couple of months,
and it was fun because I was using WindowMaker at the time at home, so
my work computer and home computer had similar interfaces.

There's more to an OS than just the window manager / shell. In fact,
you could argue that isn't even part of the OS. Of course, in the
Windows world, it's always been tightly coupled, so we rate an OS
based on the UI.

Anyway, Jason, I appreciate your interest in the landscape of
distributions -- I'm aware of more of them than I would be because of
you.

I checked out Windows 8 for a few minutes at Micro Center yesterday. I
figured out how to get past the flashy new tile thingy, and saw that
the old desktop and task bar looked pretty much the same. Found the
multiple desktop thing on the left side.

I think it's an improvement for people who use Windows. I don't
anticipate I'll need to use it for anything other than testing IE on
my web development work.

-Erik

On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Brady Hegberg <bradyh at gmail.com> wrote:
> On the one hand...yeah, bleah...though Windows 8 isn't all that different from setting up icons on your desktop to run commonly used programs.  Also, hit the windows button on your keyboard and bam you're back in the familiar (Windows 7) territory...which is more than I can say for Gnome 3.  :-/
>
> On Jan 27, 2013, at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>
>> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
>>
>> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.
>>
>> Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile diesel engine.
>>
>> --
>> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 00:45:19 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 00:45:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <85232757-4DD3-40AA-BC8C-4E1FB43D1BCF@me.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<85232757-4DD3-40AA-BC8C-4E1FB43D1BCF@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301280030250.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Microcenter had win 7 as of three weeks ago.

I bought a factory refurb laptop there just before Christmas.  The 
"problem" with the refurb laptop was that it would come with Win7 instead 
of Win8.  No problem for me -- I installed Ubuntu and deleted all of it.

I'm not sure that was the best plan, but maybe.  I could have made it a 
dual-boot machine.  The SD drive and HDMI aren't working in Ubuntu, but 
I'll bet they would have worked in Win7.  I'll want to fix those issues 
one of these days.

I bought an Acer laptop for my daughter, it runs Win7 and everything 
works, including HDMI and SD.  (That was the best deal I've ever found on 
a laptop -- 14 months ago for $250 with 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, HDMI, VGA, SD, 
three USB 2.0, but no DVD drive.)

I use nothing but Linux for work, but in the Windows world where I 
sometimes must venture for various reasons (a couple of programs won't run 
in Linux), Win7 has looked pretty good to me.  Compared to earlier Windows 
versions, I have found nothing that was worse and a lot that was better.

I'm disappointed to hear that Win8 is possibly worse than Win7, but it's 
hard for me to tell from the initial note if Jason just couldn't figure it 
out quickly enough for his satisfaction, or if it really is hard to use. 
I found it hard to figure out what the screen resolution was on Win8 
laptops on display.  It took a little while to get the hang of it, but 
then I was able to do it quickly.

Mike

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Mon Jan 28 06:50:17 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 06:50:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] laptop/netbook wireless signal strength (was "For
 Sale: Cisco Aironet 1200 series Wireless Access Point")
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08rL83NMqPsGuY4+W_=gLxp1F8r=6kyQ82y_y39UVCuWzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMWpi9CG-zgU_-gyuBGwuRCboo6a9rTuk4Eh_eEnBHWB8mqOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271458150.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAB3QoPmR+p7OLJBOX_N22GLR_QXfVASo=EmXE8Hk2Mv_uwmgkw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301271702360.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CADdM08rL83NMqPsGuY4+W_=gLxp1F8r=6kyQ82y_y39UVCuWzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2QJ-7x6O_KNVWvL81Me0Q_7ZoXj9mBWRmBJYchq-=qi5Q@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Erik-  Like so many other key specs we look are tuned into
with consumer electronics each vendor will often publish there
specifications in a different unit of measure.  Laptop batteries are a
perfect example.  Vendors will post their numbers as miliamp/hours,
watt/hours, amp/hours, number of cells, etc.

Having said that I am sure there is some report somewhere where wifi has
been scientifically analyzed   Outside of that I have heard of people
having success of purchasing a usb hi Gain antenna . I purchased one for a
laptop to help with a similar aforementioned signal problem. I even went to
the extent of getting a short usb extension cable so I could mount it high
on the screen bezel. After all that work  i did not note any increase in
performance. I think there are other brands where people have had good
success.

David Nelsen, BoTG
Healthcare Technical Analyst
Slingshot Healthcare Informatics
Office 651.472.5678
Skype: slingshot.hci




On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > This reminds me that I wanted to ask what you know about the wireless
> > capabilities of various laptops and netbooks.  It seems to me that my
> > recently-purchased HP Pavilion g7-2022us does nowhere near as well as my
> > Asus Eee 1005HA at maintaining a connection to a wireless router.  If the
> > signal seems weak, the the HP is having trouble, I can use the Asus.  Is
> > that because of reception or transmission?  Has this been measured for
> > various machines with results posted to the web?  It is a very important
> > aspect of performance, but I have never read specs on this and I can't
> find
> > any now.  I'm disappointed that the HP performs so poorly compared to the
> > much cheaper and older Asus.
>
> This sort of thing is quite hard to pin down. The performance
> discrepancy could be caused by any one (or multiple) of the following:
>
> - radio hardware
> - antenna design
> - antenna placement
> - internal RF interference within the laptop body
> - Wifi chipset firmware issues
> - sub-par OS WLAN drivers
> - etc. etc.
>
> > This led me to ask myself an obvious question:  Where are my ears?  None
> of
> > my laptop/netbooks have external ears.  How good are their internal ears
> and
> > how do they compare with those of the OLPC XO-1+ machines?  I want
> numbers!
> > ;-)
>
> In most situations, the presence or absence of external antennas is
> neither here nor there. At 2.4 and 5GHz, antennas do not need to be
> all that long. The wavelength of 2.4GHz signals is around 125mm and
> 5GHz, about 60mm. Figure a half or quarter-wave antenna, and you don't
> need all that much space. Frequently laptop manufactures will route
> wifi antennas to the top of the display panel. In Apple's case, I
> believe they put the Wifi and bluetooth antennas in the hinge area of
> the body, as that's the only non-metal (read: RF transparent) part of
> the laptop.
>
> -Erik
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 10:36:07 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:36:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABWFOjur172q+z_AQ0gcT-qCXqVfsCPwKmF8WEHeNxitHO6RzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Andrew Dahl:
>
> > Oh nice!
> >
> > I used to forgo preupgrade and just manually do it through yum.  (point
> > to
> > new repos, install the latest release, yum, rpm, and then do a yum
> > update... wait an eternity and reboot.)  I only used preupgrade... maybe
> > twice (~3 years ago) and wasn't satisfied with it.  Sounds like fedup
> > fixes what dissatisfied me though.
> >
> > I think I'll go ahead with fedup tonight on my work laptop to check it
> out.
> > Thanks for the tip, Kathryn!
>
>

I wound up getting a number of kernel panics on a server that
I had used fedup on.  I tried a few things like yum distro-sync
to remedy things, but they didn't help.  So I ended up doing a
fresh install of Fedora 18 and that has lasted longer now
without a crash than the version with fedup.  I wouldn't
recommend fedup at this point.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises  -- we write code and we write code good.
http://webEbenezer.net        651 251-9384
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From droidjd at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 12:46:03 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:46:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recent innovation in Linux
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjur172q+z_AQ0gcT-qCXqVfsCPwKmF8WEHeNxitHO6RzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOju=SxxKALjjofBOPxao1Htdqo7a6FS=dNzn8xNcCzDemA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABWFOjur172q+z_AQ0gcT-qCXqVfsCPwKmF8WEHeNxitHO6RzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdwwgYzytcvjgr+Cs7YK43YRr58jc=Nd+CrcO+=jGphA_w@mail.gmail.com>

That's unfortunate to hear. =[

I just used fedup last night and all went well (for the most part).  The
only two real issues I ran into (that were easily resolved) involved a
shared library missing that my Cisco AnyConnect client used.  Resolved that
with a yum provides and installed the missing package.  Then, Google Chrome
wasn't launching due to a missing shared library... fixed that with a yum
reinstall.  Since then, it's been running without any issue.

Oh, and the nVidia drivers took a bit to install due to nouveau being
loaded, but again... no big deal.

I'd recommend fedup, but I'd also recommend allocating extra time to
resolve issues that arise. (Which, imo that should be assumed when doing
any upgrade.)

Better luck next time, if such a thing exists. :-)

-Andrew

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Andrew Dahl:
>>
>> > Oh nice!
>> >
>> > I used to forgo preupgrade and just manually do it through yum.  (point
>> > to
>> > new repos, install the latest release, yum, rpm, and then do a yum
>> > update... wait an eternity and reboot.)  I only used preupgrade... maybe
>> > twice (~3 years ago) and wasn't satisfied with it.  Sounds like fedup
>> > fixes what dissatisfied me though.
>> >
>> > I think I'll go ahead with fedup tonight on my work laptop to check it
>> out.
>> > Thanks for the tip, Kathryn!
>>
>>
>
> I wound up getting a number of kernel panics on a server that
> I had used fedup on.  I tried a few things like yum distro-sync
> to remedy things, but they didn't help.  So I ended up doing a
> fresh install of Fedora 18 and that has lasted longer now
> without a crash than the version with fedup.  I wouldn't
> recommend fedup at this point.
>
>
> Brian Wood
> Ebenezer Enterprises  -- we write code and we write code good.
> http://webEbenezer.net        651 251-9384
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From ryan.c.dunlop at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 13:14:42 2013
From: ryan.c.dunlop at gmail.com (Ryan Dunlop)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:14:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKOK-RwBbiV1dWWgjKYrtARTEkc1QJKE00s-kNJ+yrM6mc5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>

*

*
*"BUT - they memory allocation unit in the OS now allocates memory
randomly, which apparently thwarts most of the attacks against device
drivers and such that previous versions of windows were susceptible too.
 This apparently is pointing to a brighter future for online gaming in
terms of making it harder for people to cheat."  *

http://kingcope.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/attacking-the-windows-78-address-space-randomization/

Quoting the site:

"Though in many cases it is possible to completely bypass Windows 7
and especially Windows 8 ASLR by using the
techniques."

"Testcases have shown that Windows 8 behaves more vulnerable to the method than
Windows 7. In Windows 8 the DLL will be loaded at the very low address 0x10000
and more reliable than in Windows 7."
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From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 14:55:43 2013
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:55:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <CAKOK-RwBbiV1dWWgjKYrtARTEkc1QJKE00s-kNJ+yrM6mc5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAOOsjE_6CEP6AyqreLpbjgsFQPShA=B7hKCjecHZ103u0T1x+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKOK-RwBbiV1dWWgjKYrtARTEkc1QJKE00s-kNJ+yrM6mc5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-=8pORdqUgVzCkvFAsVycwpS2WJ=ZkaJ_2wriN+OPFCg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting read!  Thanks Ryan!

At least they tried? :)

-Rob



On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Ryan Dunlop <ryan.c.dunlop at gmail.com>wrote:

> *
>
> *
> *"BUT - they memory allocation unit in the OS now allocates memory
> randomly, which apparently thwarts most of the attacks against device
> drivers and such that previous versions of windows were susceptible too.
>  This apparently is pointing to a brighter future for online gaming in
> terms of making it harder for people to cheat."  *
>
>
> http://kingcope.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/attacking-the-windows-78-address-space-randomization/
>
> Quoting the site:
>
> "Though in many cases it is possible to completely bypass Windows 7 and especially Windows 8 ASLR by using the
> techniques."
>
> "Testcases have shown that Windows 8 behaves more vulnerable to the method than
> Windows 7. In Windows 8 the DLL will be loaded at the very low address 0x10000
> and more reliable than in Windows 7."
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 20:03:55 2013
From: susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com (Susan)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:03:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>

I'll be interested to see whether or not businesses convert to Win8. I still see XP regularly, primarily in the financial industry, it seems to me, because they are often running legacy software.

As a Field Technician doing break/fix repairs the training I received regarding Win8 was there will be no COA stickers & the product key number is "injected" into the motherboard. The M$ product key needs to be programmed in when a mobo is replaced, this is sometimes done automatically. 

When I was onsite at a major software company recently my customer said his company will not be putting Win8 on any of their computers, he said it's "totally incompatible with a corporate environment due to the touch-screen interface." 

I've repaired units running Win8 but haven't played with it... I appreciate any input here... 

On another note... here's an interesting article on Dell's move to go private & Microsoft's offer to "help"...  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jan/28/dell-microsoft-buyout-monday-note

Hmmm... Dell currently offers the Ubuntu option on some of their systems,  I wonder if M$ will insist upon Dell squashing that "testing of the waters?" 

Susan

From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Jan 28 20:05:38 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:05:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A79A079A-A696-4AFD-97A4-E9F6DA099EB5@me.com>

Dells COA is just a formality anyway. 

--
Ryan Coleman
ryanjcole at me.com
m. 651.373.5015
o. 612.568.2749

On Jan 28, 2013, at 20:03, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll be interested to see whether or not businesses convert to Win8. I still see XP regularly, primarily in the financial industry, it seems to me, because they are often running legacy software.
> 
> As a Field Technician doing break/fix repairs the training I received regarding Win8 was there will be no COA stickers & the product key number is "injected" into the motherboard. The M$ product key needs to be programmed in when a mobo is replaced, this is sometimes done automatically. 
> 
> When I was onsite at a major software company recently my customer said his company will not be putting Win8 on any of their computers, he said it's "totally incompatible with a corporate environment due to the touch-screen interface." 
> 
> I've repaired units running Win8 but haven't played with it... I appreciate any input here... 
> 
> On another note... here's an interesting article on Dell's move to go private & Microsoft's offer to "help"...  
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jan/28/dell-microsoft-buyout-monday-note
> 
> Hmmm... Dell currently offers the Ubuntu option on some of their systems,  I wonder if M$ will insist upon Dell squashing that "testing of the waters?" 
> 
> Susan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Mon Jan 28 20:09:57 2013
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:09:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9688b6d05e0443130e46fde45f64dcfe@flyballdogs.com>

On 2013-01-28 20:03, Susan wrote:
> I'll be interested to see whether or not businesses convert to Win8.
> I still see XP regularly, primarily in the financial industry, it
> seems to me, because they are often running legacy software.

I just got Windows 7 on a work laptop (replaced with Fedora 18) in 
November.  We replace developer computers every 3 years which means XP 
was still the standard 3 years ago.
-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 20:10:20 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:10:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was onsite at a major software company recently my customer said his company will not be putting Win8 on any of their computers, he said it's "totally incompatible
> with a corporate environment due to the touch-screen interface."

FUD, FUD, FUD.

It seems there are a *lot* of people making rash judgements about
Windows 8 based off of a few sensationalist "reviews", and before
they've had a chance to try it out for themselves. Do you actually
think Microsoft would release an OS that is "totally incompatible with
a corporate environment"? Really? Didn't think so. Corporate IT is
Microsoft's bread and butter - it's where they have their largest
market share, and where they make the vast majority of their money.

-Erik

From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 20:22:59 2013
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 20:22:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
	<CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8m8fOwhPu5RkKnqjjvkMfwpfm2DHh55R2PSeXr-_NY-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > When I was onsite at a major software company recently my customer said
> his company will not be putting Win8 on any of their computers, he said
> it's "totally incompatible
> > with a corporate environment due to the touch-screen interface."
>
> It seems there are a *lot* of people making rash judgements about
> Windows 8 based off of a few sensationalist "reviews", and before
> they've had a chance to try it out for themselves. Do you actually
> think Microsoft would release an OS that is "totally incompatible with
> a corporate environment"? Really? Didn't think so. Corporate IT is
> Microsoft's bread and butter - it's where they have their largest
> market share, and where they make the vast majority of their money.
>

Aside from the "Start Menu" becoming the "Start Screen" - it feels like a
slightly improved version of windows 7.  The underlying OS technology is
largely the same.   I haven't run into a single compatibility issue yet.

-Rob
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 21:05:46 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:05:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
	<CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301282054130.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, Erik Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Susan <susan.dawn.stewart at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When I was onsite at a major software company recently my customer said 
>> his company will not be putting Win8 on any of their computers, he said 
>> it's "totally incompatible with a corporate environment due to the 
>> touch-screen interface."
>
> FUD, FUD, FUD.
>
> It seems there are a *lot* of people making rash judgements about 
> Windows 8 based off of a few sensationalist "reviews", and before 
> they've had a chance to try it out for themselves. Do you actually think 
> Microsoft would release an OS that is "totally incompatible with a 
> corporate environment"? Really?

Microsoft's pointy-haired bosses are fully capable of releasing an OS that 
has enormous problems.  They'll sell it and take the money.  They'll fight 
the inevitable law suits.  Does this work for them?  I'm not sure, but 
they've done it anyway.  You probably know that I'm talking about Vista.

Here's a story about a guy named Mike (not me)...

"Mike buys a laptop that has a reassuring ?Windows Vista Capable? logo 
affixed. He thinks that he will be able to run Vista in all of its glory, 
as well as favorite Microsoft programs like Movie Maker. His report: ?I 
personally got burned.? His new laptop ? logo or no logo ? lacks the 
necessary graphics chip and can run neither his favorite video-editing 
software nor anything but a hobbled version of Vista. ?I now have a $2,100 
e-mail machine,? he says.

"It turns out that Mike is clearly not a na?f. He?s Mike Nash, a Microsoft 
vice president who oversees Windows product management."

That story and two other similar ones can be read here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/business/09digi.html

The original memos revealed in court:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2008/02/27/full-text-microsoft-execs-on-vista-problems/

Mike

From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Jan 28 21:06:53 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:06:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301282054130.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
	<CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301282054130.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <51073CCD.5000503@me.com>

On 1/28/2013 9:05 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, Erik Anderson wrote:
>> It seems there are a *lot* of people making rash judgements about 
>> Windows 8 based off of a few sensationalist "reviews", and before 
>> they've had a chance to try it out for themselves. Do you actually 
>> think Microsoft would release an OS that is "totally incompatible 
>> with a corporate environment"? Really?
>
> Microsoft's pointy-haired bosses are fully capable of releasing an OS 
> that has enormous problems.  They'll sell it and take the money. 

That's every developer, Mike.


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jan 28 21:44:00 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:44:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301282054130.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
	<CADdM08oGvxLRCusx7gsiaHF7V0t=+n-3nZO8ORsg9p_3pOP3KA@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301282054130.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301282142440.11580@dragon>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2013, Erik Anderson wrote:

> It seems there are a *lot* of people making rash judgements about Windows 8 
> based off of a few sensationalist "reviews", and before they've had a 
> chance to try it out for themselves. Do you actually think Microsoft would 
> release an OS that is "totally incompatible with a corporate environment"? 
> Really?

Yes. It was called Windows Vista.

I work for a very, very large corporate environment. Most desktop PCs 
still run XP. We are only now -- now, in 2013 -- starting to move to 
Windows 7.



--

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 21:50:35 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 21:50:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Windows 8 & M$/Dell
In-Reply-To: <0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2488.1359355530.1495.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<0E1D215B-B606-42A6-B23F-EEB1F68B3CE8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282139080.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>

Susan cried from the depths of the abyss...

> I'll be interested to see whether or not businesses convert to Win8. I still see XP regularly, primarily in the financial industry, it seems to me, because they are often running legacy software.

Small shops might move to win8, but I don't forsee Win7 going away anytime 
soon.  Much like XP was with 2003, Win7 & 2008r2 play nice togeather.  I 
feel this pair will be around the enterprise area many years to come.  I 
would imagine those XP machines you see out in the wild will soon be Win7 
and not Win8.

> I've repaired units running Win8 but haven't played with it... I appreciate any input here...

I ordered a copy of Win8 the first day it was released.  I have been 
running it as a VM on my office PC eversince.  Once I figured out the 
whole desktop mode thing it wasn't too bad.  I don't have a touch 
screen to use so I can't comment on that part, but the OS itself isn't 
to bad.  Win8 is all amped up for the "Cloud", and that doesn't interest 
me at all.  For work purposes I still like win7 over win8 myself.  I have 
no plans of moving our PC's at work to win8.









From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 22:15:22 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:15:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Recomendation - Wifi N card for Pen Testing
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282157040.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>

I was curious if anyone could recommend a good N wifi card for penetration 
testing that they have actually used for capture & injection.

I've been using an Alfa AWUS036H usb for my pen testing, and it is 
fantastic.  It is however only B/G capable.

Looking to expand my range into the N world, and hoping to find a success 
story to help me in my selection process.

Thanks!

Mr. B-o-B






From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Jan 28 22:16:26 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:16:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recomendation - Wifi N card for Pen Testing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282157040.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282157040.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
Message-ID: <89C9C499-C92F-42D5-9C23-1755EF75E05B@me.com>

You want dual band not just simply N and I'd look at 3x3 MIMO while you're at it. 

--
Ryan Coleman
ryanjcole at me.com

On Jan 28, 2013, at 22:15, "Mr. B-o-B" <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was curious if anyone could recommend a good N wifi card for penetration testing that they have actually used for capture & injection.
> 
> I've been using an Alfa AWUS036H usb for my pen testing, and it is fantastic.  It is however only B/G capable.
> 
> Looking to expand my range into the N world, and hoping to find a success story to help me in my selection process.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mr. B-o-B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 22:38:39 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:38:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Recomendation - Wifi N card for Pen Testing
In-Reply-To: <89C9C499-C92F-42D5-9C23-1755EF75E05B@me.com>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282157040.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
	<89C9C499-C92F-42D5-9C23-1755EF75E05B@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282224480.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>

Ryan Coleman cried from the depths of the abyss...

> You want dual band not just simply N and I'd look at 3x3 MIMO while you're at it.
>

Yes.  Forgive me for being generic in my post.  I was thinking dual-band 
;)  Thanks for the 3x3 MIMO tip.







From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Jan 28 22:39:58 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 22:39:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recomendation - Wifi N card for Pen Testing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282224480.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
References: <alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282157040.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
	<89C9C499-C92F-42D5-9C23-1755EF75E05B@me.com>
	<alpine.LNX.2.02.1301282224480.2434@bacon.evil-empire.local>
Message-ID: <119F7EB2-1366-4A95-842E-5E5E8FF1874F@me.com>

You're welcome

You might want to save your money and buy an 802.11ac compatible card instead... 

Just a thought. 

--
Ryan Coleman
ryanjcole at me.com


On Jan 28, 2013, at 22:38, "Mr. B-o-B" <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ryan Coleman cried from the depths of the abyss...
> 
>> You want dual band not just simply N and I'd look at 3x3 MIMO while you're at it.
>> 
> 
> Yes.  Forgive me for being generic in my post.  I was thinking dual-band ;)  Thanks for the 3x3 MIMO tip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Jan 29 12:44:00 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 12:44:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Nexus 4
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301291243220.14443@dragon>

In case anyone's interested (and didn't know yet) the Nexus 4 is back on 
sale through the Google Play store at $350 for the expensive model.



--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 16:35:12 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:35:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Nexus 4
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301291243220.14443@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1301291243220.14443@dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301291625080.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> In case anyone's interested (and didn't know yet) the Nexus 4 is back on 
> sale through the Google Play store at $350 for the expensive model.


Thanks.  It's here:

https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=nexus_4_16gb

This is T-Mobile's price:

http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/phones/Cell-Phone-Detail.aspx?cell-phone=Nexus-4

But I have had trouble understanding their plans and which plan I have. 
They tell me that I am paying full price for the phone ($500 after the $50 
rebate, which I will receive) but my plan is saving me $20/month compared 
to the "classic" plan I could have had with the $300 discount on the 
phone.  Obviously, in the long run I am better off paying $20/mo less. 
They say that this model works well for them because they get more money 
up front, then when someone might switch plans, it's hard to find a lower 
price than theirs.  I agree, that makes sense.  So I guess I'm keeping my 
phone.

The Nexus 4 is a quite awesome thing, I should say.  It's not as if I have 
compared it to everything, but it is a huge leap forward from my Palm Pre, 
but no keypad, only virtual.

One thing -- you might have to restart it occasionally.  After the first 
day or so of use I lost all data service and thought I had bad service, 
but it was the phone (thanks to those of you who helped me figure that 
out), and a reboot fixed it.  It might be that installing a bunch of stuff 
mucked it up a bit.  No problems in the week since.

Mike

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 19:15:46 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:15:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Windows 8
In-Reply-To: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20130127205412.e62ea5caa24e73b4e1be999f@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3-_j5CSyOYWguwR=nWqgzpH2ccha=cuPNhSHbVbaTcjA@mail.gmail.com>

I ended up with Windows 8 for a recent home build since it was cheaper at
the time. Regretted it for about a month, now I'm near Window 7 annoyance
with it (which is a good thing). There is a Classic Shell program (open
source), which brings back a much better computing interface and it
practically looks like Windows 7 in every way. Add in some minor tweaks and
it's like I never left Windows 7.

I will say it makes very little sense to upgrade from 7 to 8 for most
users.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I looked at the computers at Office Max yesterday and got to see Windows
> 8.  It's rubbish!  How are you supposed to do anything?
>
> As a Linux user, I've been so spoiled by the user-friendliness of Linux
> Mint, Puppy Linux, and antiX Linux.  Windows 8 is even worse than Unity.  I
> felt completely out to sea.  There were some Windows 7 computers there as
> well, and Windows 7 (at least in the configuration I saw) didn't look that
> different from Windows XP, the last Windows OS I have significant
> experience with.  I can't imagine how anyone who likes Windows XP or 7 will
> like Windows 8.  Anyone who objects to Unity will hate Windows 8 even more.
>
> Microsoft today reminds me of General Motors during the Malaise Era.
>  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I expect Windows 8 to go down
> in history as Microsoft's Chevy Citation, Cadillac Cimarron, or Oldsmobile
> diesel engine.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 29 20:36:40 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:36:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] For sale: HP pavilion a810n and HP pavilion f1730
	monitor
Message-ID: <CABWFOjt-0fMpvea=hrZxS2UHqrWEaNCu6=4hs0-uxkjL1J=Z_w@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-Desktop-Athlon-Processor/dp/B0006VHV64

It is like the one there, but has 1GB of memory.  It has a fresh install of
32bit
Fedora 18 on it.  I haven't had much luck putting a 64 bit OS on it.   The
monitor
is a 17 inch flat screen.   $100 obo



-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises -- Johnny Cash's Remember the Alamo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i79X9jTAfEM

http://webEbenezer.net       (651) 251-9384
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From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Tue Jan 29 23:39:52 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:39:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How was the January meeting?
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2SeUKA4nVdg8-TTzPnqV9FMnNuesGFvwpCpQ-4zP2tzwA@mail.gmail.com>

I am new to tclug- I really wanted to attend the January meeting but could
not fit it in.  Had to leave for out of town the following day.  How was it
? How many attended?  Looking forward to getting involved.

David Nelsen, BoTG
Healthcare Technical Analyst
Slingshot Healthcare Informatics
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 08:30:34 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:30:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm searching for a good USB 3 hub for Linux for use at work. I know just
about everything will be compatible with Linux (the first native USB3
driver OS) which I use frequently at home with enough built-in ports
without a hitch. I am curious if anyone has had better success with some
USB 3 hubs over others?

My primary goal is high, maintained speed and throughput. I do a lot of
forensic imaging (drive to drive copying over USB 3), so four ports would
be sufficient, and a separate power hub is a no brainer. I use dc3dd,
guymager + libewf, and ftkimager, the latter two being threaded and very
fast for compression and encryption. I know ideally I should be using eSATA
for this, but there are other reasons for not doing it that way. Price
isn't too much of a sticking point since it's covered by work, but I don't
want to go all out with a pink rhinestone $200 4 port USB 3 hub either ;-)

I noticed Micro Center has some options (am open to online locations as
well):
http://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=0&NTX=&NTT=usb+3+hub&NTK=all&sortby=rating

Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly
appreciated,

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
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From florin at iucha.net  Wed Jan 30 08:49:07 2013
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 08:49:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130130144907.GA30994@signbit.net>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 08:30:34AM -0600, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
> I noticed Micro Center has some options (am open to online locations as
> well):
> http://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=0&NTX=&NTT=usb+3+hub&NTK=all&sortby=rating
> 
> Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly
> appreciated,

I don't have a hub, the four port PCIe card is enough for me.

However, based on prior experiences with their hardware, I can
recommend IOGear, followed at some distance by Trendnet.

For USB 2.0, the best hubs were made by D-Link (they worked best
with some finicky embedded hardware we have around).

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Beware of software written by optimists!
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From tlunde at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 09:34:24 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:34:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
In-Reply-To: <20130130144907.GA30994@signbit.net>
References: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130130144907.GA30994@signbit.net>
Message-ID: <F3D4162F-30EA-44DD-81D8-0B7AC8C49D70@gmail.com>

Look for Plugable products on Amazon. Not super-cheap but reasonable and with very, very good support.  I read their blog. 

For example:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008ZGKWQI

They're extremely Linux-friendly, too. 

Thomas


On Jan 30, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 08:30:34AM -0600, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
>> I noticed Micro Center has some options (am open to online locations as
>> well):
>> http://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?N=0&NTX=&NTT=usb+3+hub&NTK=all&sortby=rating
>> 
>> Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly
>> appreciated,
> 
> I don't have a hub, the four port PCIe card is enough for me.
> 
> However, based on prior experiences with their hardware, I can
> recommend IOGear, followed at some distance by Trendnet.
> 
> For USB 2.0, the best hubs were made by D-Link (they worked best
> with some finicky embedded hardware we have around).
> 
> Cheers,
> florin
> 
> -- 
> Beware of software written by optimists!
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 10:04:24 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:04:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] The Forked Amazon Kindle Fire Is The Most Popular
 Brand of Android Tablet
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301300958450.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I just ran across this article...

59% Of All Android Tablet Usage Comes From The U.S.,
And The Forked Amazon Kindle Fire Is The Most Popular Brand

http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/27/59-of-all-android-tablet-usage-comes-from-the-u-s-where-amazons-kindle-fire-leads-the-pack/


...but the article claims, "Because Fire is built on a 'forked' version of 
Android, the Google Play app storefront doesn?t appear on it."  That is 
not true of the Kindle Fire I bought from Yaron (he advertised it here). 
It does have Google Play.  I don't know if he had to do something special 
to get it on there.  I do know that it is very important because it is how 
I installed loads of software on the device, all for free (mostly free as 
in freedom, too).

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 10:12:48 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:12:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301007250.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly 
> appreciated,

I haven't used a hub, but I was happily surprised at how fast the USB 3 
was with my Seagate 3TB external drive.  This is not systematic 
benchmarking, but ...  The first time I tried it, I measured how quickly 
it copied a file from the external drive to my laptop's internal hard 
drive.  The file was 2.9 GB and it copied it in 17 seconds.  A file that 
size was taking about 2 minutes by USB 2.  Now I want to add USB 3 to my 
other machines, so I am also interested in the hubs.

Mike

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 10:22:13 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:22:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
Message-ID: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>

Every couple of days my computer freezes hard and I'm not sure how to debug
it.

When it freezes Mouse and keyboard don't work, and I can't SSH in. There's
no disk activity either. The screen continues to display whatever it was
showing.

In the past, when I got  freezes I could do a SysRq-REISUB safe reboot, but
even that fails this time.

I ran a full memtest86 test and everything passed.

I don't know how to force it to occur. I usually have Firefox, some
terminals and pidgin open. Sometimes Thunderbird and VirtualBox are also
open, but not always.

I'm running Debian Wheezy, 64 bit on a Thinkpad W530

I'd really like to avoid a reinstall if I can.

Thanks,
Michael
-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 10:27:38 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 10:27:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
Message-ID: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>

I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
device and I can mount it, and everything is great.

However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
avail.

I've tried to modprobe -r modules like usb_common and usb_core but am
not able to because they're in use. I imagine I would need to track
down all of the USB activity on my system and remove all of the
various modules being used in sequence, and then re-add them again.

Is there an easier way to reset my USB drivers without rebooting my machine?

-Erik

--
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Wed Jan 30 11:11:16 2013
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:11:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
> storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
> device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
>
> However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
> isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
> avail.

Does the same thing happen for normal flash drives, or just with
devices?  I know my Maemo phone likes to do this every now and then
for no apparent reason.

-Max

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:18:29 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:18:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301007250.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301007250.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO3hV=VX1xNYUeBf+XEpex0ShyKF1MEUuT3uaXZbvTmf_A@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting, I had my sight set on the Pluggable one on Amazon before
reading your e-mail :-) Seven ports is probably overkill but the price and
reviews are good.

The main reason for the hub is primarily for laptops with USB 3 ports (they
usually only have two). I run Linux on a USB 3 stick so that doesn't leave
much room for a target and source disk each connected via USB 3. I suppose
a plus to seven ports is that I can queue up multiple imaging jobs and let
it percolate.

Thanks for the suggestions- I'll research a little more however the
Pluggable one looks like it will fit the bill.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
>
>  Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly
>> appreciated,
>>
>
> I haven't used a hub, but I was happily surprised at how fast the USB 3
> was with my Seagate 3TB external drive.  This is not systematic
> benchmarking, but ...  The first time I tried it, I measured how quickly it
> copied a file from the external drive to my laptop's internal hard drive.
>  The file was 2.9 GB and it copied it in 17 seconds.  A file that size was
> taking about 2 minutes by USB 2.  Now I want to add USB 3 to my other
> machines, so I am also interested in the hubs.
>
> Mike
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:19:23 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:19:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGaNBC_i3nv94vXsLowSmuLNWTVBVCWYsOof9bcMP+h=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't done a very comprehensive test, but I don't think I've
noticed it with normal flash drives.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn
<max at bernsteinforpresident.com> wrote:
> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
>> storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
>> device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
>>
>> However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
>> isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
>> avail.
>
> Does the same thing happen for normal flash drives, or just with
> devices?  I know my Maemo phone likes to do this every now and then
> for no apparent reason.
>
> -Max
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:22:09 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:22:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn
<max at bernsteinforpresident.com>wrote:

> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
> > storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
> > device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
> >
> > However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
> > isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
> > avail.
>

Do you actually unmount it? I've had this problem with regular USB devices
when I've just pulled the device without unmounting.

When you insert it again does dmesg tell you that the device has been
detected? If it does, can you mount it manually (with the mount command)?
--
Michael
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:25:00 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:25:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGAJEX_wQyLVqBxvb4aWHLaBcQpU9RNS3Cpxa9=vOOCdA@mail.gmail.com>

I am unmounting it.

When I insert it again dmesg does not show any new information at all.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn <max at bernsteinforpresident.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
>> > storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
>> > device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
>> >
>> > However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
>> > isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
>> > avail.
>
>
> Do you actually unmount it? I've had this problem with regular USB devices
> when I've just pulled the device without unmounting.
>
> When you insert it again does dmesg tell you that the device has been
> detected? If it does, can you mount it manually (with the mount command)?
> --
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From tlunde at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:24:44 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:24:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good USB3 hub for Linux, forensicating
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO3hV=VX1xNYUeBf+XEpex0ShyKF1MEUuT3uaXZbvTmf_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACEdYO0qBVAJE+=q1fxo3esWVuD0Ea9wRcL+kN9Uk-FLKp=m3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301007250.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CACEdYO3hV=VX1xNYUeBf+XEpex0ShyKF1MEUuT3uaXZbvTmf_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6207CAC8-172D-40DD-91B2-420E673B250C@gmail.com>

There's a four port option, too. 

On Jan 30, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting, I had my sight set on the Pluggable one on Amazon before reading your e-mail :-) Seven ports is probably overkill but the price and reviews are good. 
> 
> The main reason for the hub is primarily for laptops with USB 3 ports (they usually only have two). I run Linux on a USB 3 stick so that doesn't leave much room for a target and source disk each connected via USB 3. I suppose a plus to seven ports is that I can queue up multiple imaging jobs and let it percolate. 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions- I'll research a little more however the Pluggable one looks like it will fit the bill. 
> 
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
>> 
>>> Any suggestions (general experience, benchmarks, etc) are greatly appreciated,
>> 
>> I haven't used a hub, but I was happily surprised at how fast the USB 3 was with my Seagate 3TB external drive.  This is not systematic benchmarking, but ...  The first time I tried it, I measured how quickly it copied a file from the external drive to my laptop's internal hard drive.  The file was 2.9 GB and it copied it in 17 seconds.  A file that size was taking about 2 minutes by USB 2.  Now I want to add USB 3 to my other machines, so I am also interested in the hubs.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:26:18 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:26:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO2frCraoCqj=uYQ2k8+vM1AFyPRgaOTRA6G6mJpkh6x9A@mail.gmail.com>

libusb should offer a means of reset. I maintain a package for ArchLinux
called restmsmice (http://sourceforge.net/projects/resetmsmice) based on
libusb, that does essentially that, reset the usb port, albeit just of a
specific input device in this case a mouse, so the device will work
properly if dual booting with Windows. Source code could be helpful.

What distro / kernel are you using? Could also be a driver problem with
your USB ports since you are unmounting it.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn
<max at bernsteinforpresident.com>wrote:

> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
> > storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
> > device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
> >
> > However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
> > isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
> > avail.
>
> Does the same thing happen for normal flash drives, or just with
> devices?  I know my Maemo phone likes to do this every now and then
> for no apparent reason.
>
> -Max
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:29:03 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:29:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO2frCraoCqj=uYQ2k8+vM1AFyPRgaOTRA6G6mJpkh6x9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO2frCraoCqj=uYQ2k8+vM1AFyPRgaOTRA6G6mJpkh6x9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGHVK=ZG_wDpXjbc-9X2vPpx-JBHxeGuHoO_yEvWcWN-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Distro is Debian. I believe I'm wheezy but I'd have to check. Also
would need to check to get exact kernel version, but it's fairly
current.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> libusb should offer a means of reset. I maintain a package for ArchLinux
> called restmsmice (http://sourceforge.net/projects/resetmsmice) based on
> libusb, that does essentially that, reset the usb port, albeit just of a
> specific input device in this case a mouse, so the device will work properly
> if dual booting with Windows. Source code could be helpful.
>
> What distro / kernel are you using? Could also be a driver problem with your
> USB ports since you are unmounting it.
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn <max at bernsteinforpresident.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass
>> > storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a
>> > device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
>> >
>> > However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it
>> > isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no
>> > avail.
>>
>> Does the same thing happen for normal flash drives, or just with
>> devices?  I know my Maemo phone likes to do this every now and then
>> for no apparent reason.
>>
>> -Max
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:30:35 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:30:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Do you use Flash with Firefox? That was a common cause of some hefty
lockups for me in Linux. Only difference is I could usually still ssh in,
kill flash, and recover without a reboot. The plugin container would be
eating up proc utilization and I think there was (maybe still is) a memory
leak with the no longer maintained Linux plugin.

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com>wrote:

> Every couple of days my computer freezes hard and I'm not sure how to
> debug it.
>
> When it freezes Mouse and keyboard don't work, and I can't SSH in. There's
> no disk activity either. The screen continues to display whatever it was
> showing.
>
> In the past, when I got  freezes I could do a SysRq-REISUB safe reboot,
> but even that fails this time.
>
> I ran a full memtest86 test and everything passed.
>
> I don't know how to force it to occur. I usually have Firefox, some
> terminals and pidgin open. Sometimes Thunderbird and VirtualBox are also
> open, but not always.
>
> I'm running Debian Wheezy, 64 bit on a Thinkpad W530
>
> I'd really like to avoid a reinstall if I can.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
> --
> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:31:41 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:31:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEGAJEX_wQyLVqBxvb4aWHLaBcQpU9RNS3Cpxa9=vOOCdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEGAJEX_wQyLVqBxvb4aWHLaBcQpU9RNS3Cpxa9=vOOCdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KV99xSJaKzVC=51VHP-xO4CKzLZXKWBWqU9LbP5Cn5PUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> I am unmounting it.
>
> When I insert it again dmesg does not show any new information at all.
>

Does dmesg notice that the device is gone?

When the device is removed are the /dev/disk/by-{id|label|path|uuid} links
still there for the device?

If you re-insert the device and try to manually mount by the previous /dev/
path (/dev/sdb or /dev/disk/by-whatever) does it work?
--
Michael
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 11:36:39 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 11:36:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Do you use Flash with Firefox? That was a common cause of some hefty
> lockups for me in Linux. Only difference is I could usually still ssh in,
> kill flash, and recover without a reboot. The plugin container would be
> eating up proc utilization and I think there was (maybe still is) a memory
> leak with the no longer maintained Linux plugin.
>

I did. I just un-installed it. I've had flash crash the browser in the past
but nothing that a "killall firefox-bin" wouldn't fix. I guess we'll see if
that helps it or not.

Thanks,
Michael
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From sfertch at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 12:06:27 2013
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:06:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>

Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
On Jan 30, 2013 11:37 AM, "Michael Moore" <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <
> jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you use Flash with Firefox? That was a common cause of some hefty
>> lockups for me in Linux. Only difference is I could usually still ssh in,
>> kill flash, and recover without a reboot. The plugin container would be
>> eating up proc utilization and I think there was (maybe still is) a memory
>> leak with the no longer maintained Linux plugin.
>>
>
> I did. I just un-installed it. I've had flash crash the browser in the
> past but nothing that a "killall firefox-bin" wouldn't fix. I guess we'll
> see if that helps it or not.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 12:26:07 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:26:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>

I have not. I'll set that up tonight when I get home from work.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
> On Jan 30, 2013 11:37 AM, "Michael Moore" <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <
>> jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you use Flash with Firefox? That was a common cause of some hefty
>>> lockups for me in Linux. Only difference is I could usually still ssh in,
>>> kill flash, and recover without a reboot. The plugin container would be
>>> eating up proc utilization and I think there was (maybe still is) a memory
>>> leak with the no longer maintained Linux plugin.
>>>
>>
>> I did. I just un-installed it. I've had flash crash the browser in the
>> past but nothing that a "killall firefox-bin" wouldn't fix. I guess we'll
>> see if that helps it or not.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
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From j at packetgod.com  Wed Jan 30 13:31:23 2013
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:31:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] The Forked Amazon Kindle Fire Is The Most Popular
 Brand of Android Tablet
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301300958450.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301300958450.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CADr-735XWdnvn3FLU4N9s4=XgQ_vcRTo7iKKCGJ285jipU=_nQ@mail.gmail.com>

That us what I use, great platform and they do have the latest android Roms
for it.  I'm on ics but will be upgrading shortly.  I would never use the
the Amazon Android as it fully locks you in to them.  I do enjoy reading my
nook books on a fire :)

--j

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> I just ran across this article...
>
> 59% Of All Android Tablet Usage Comes From The U.S.,
> And The Forked Amazon Kindle Fire Is The Most Popular Brand
>
> http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/**27/59-of-all-android-tablet-**
> usage-comes-from-the-u-s-**where-amazons-kindle-fire-**leads-the-pack/<http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/27/59-of-all-android-tablet-usage-comes-from-the-u-s-where-amazons-kindle-fire-leads-the-pack/>
>
>
> ...but the article claims, "Because Fire is built on a 'forked' version of
> Android, the Google Play app storefront doesn?t appear on it."  That is not
> true of the Kindle Fire I bought from Yaron (he advertised it here). It
> does have Google Play.  I don't know if he had to do something special to
> get it on there.  I do know that it is very important because it is how I
> installed loads of software on the device, all for free (mostly free as in
> freedom, too).
>
> Mike
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 16:33:14 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:33:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
>
> I have not. I'll set that up tonight when I get home from work.

Have you looked at what is in /var/log/messages or /var/log/dmesg?  I'm 
not sure those are the right log files to check, but someone else will 
know which are best to look at.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 16:36:21 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:36:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] USB reset?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEGnHVAHWx_fKooj9Vi07-PrbB6xvKTFiuFoKM2Q6MFTKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAEQLb8=dkzVhoFiqWRis4VuQMc7uOMN3xn-pe_Ld+GVGzqg54w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KUsCptxQ8TwgYAns=kJo_n50Xw2E4aPdMja8-4ysJub2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301635050.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Max Shinn
> <max at bernsteinforpresident.com>wrote:
>
>> On 1/30/13, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've run into this problem a few times. When I plug in a USB mass 
>>> storage device, such as my Kindle or my iPhone 4, it will show up as a 
>>> device and I can mount it, and everything is great.
>>>
>>> However, if I unmount it and unplug it, and then plug it in again, it 
>>> isn't detected by the USB system. I have tried different cables to no 
>>> avail.
>>
>
> Do you actually unmount it? I've had this problem with regular USB 
> devices when I've just pulled the device without unmounting.
>
> When you insert it again does dmesg tell you that the device has been 
> detected? If it does, can you mount it manually (with the mount 
> command)?


If you plug it into a Windows machine, does it work there?  Then, after 
that, if you go back to Linux, does it then work there again?

Mike

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 16:44:44 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:44:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KV0e0bmAr2cktPgx9Uij5nAz5HS28escXSbZogwd0pr=w@mail.gmail.com>

I have, but didn't see anything.

Since I had to reboot to an accessible system I think the logs to look at
would be

/var/log/dmesg.0
/var/log/messages.1
etc.

I think they get rotated on boot.


It could be that the Flash thing was the problem. I had two hard crashes
this morning (but none for the last 3 or so days). Since I removed flash I
haven't had any problems. I'll still set up kernel dumps tonight though,
just in case.

-- Michael
Michael



On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>
>  On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
>>>
>>
>> I have not. I'll set that up tonight when I get home from work.
>>
>
> Have you looked at what is in /var/log/messages or /var/log/dmesg?  I'm
> not sure those are the right log files to check, but someone else will know
> which are best to look at.
>
> Mike
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>



-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
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From sfertch at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 16:55:12 2013
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:55:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KV0e0bmAr2cktPgx9Uij5nAz5HS28escXSbZogwd0pr=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAFE18KV0e0bmAr2cktPgx9Uij5nAz5HS28escXSbZogwd0pr=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCD7j7Oa49dQ4bTaZouJO7q3JiBWwNz1NbtNSAvQskpxPcFvw@mail.gmail.com>

One other item is if you recently updated you system and have old
firmware.  Or, vice versa
On Jan 30, 2013 4:45 PM, "Michael Moore" <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have, but didn't see anything.
>
> Since I had to reboot to an accessible system I think the logs to look at
> would be
>
> /var/log/dmesg.0
> /var/log/messages.1
> etc.
>
> I think they get rotated on boot.
>
>
> It could be that the Flash thing was the problem. I had two hard crashes
> this morning (but none for the last 3 or so days). Since I removed flash I
> haven't had any problems. I'll still set up kernel dumps tonight though,
> just in case.
>
> -- Michael
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>>
>>  On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have not. I'll set that up tonight when I get home from work.
>>>
>>
>> Have you looked at what is in /var/log/messages or /var/log/dmesg?  I'm
>> not sure those are the right log files to check, but someone else will know
>> which are best to look at.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From tclug at beitsahour.net  Thu Jan 31 09:37:52 2013
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 09:37:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xavLexiW3nJ12P_xe0TAwLAB9PKACaHFpJ_Rcax37Gbwmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Have you setup kernel dumps to see if something can be captured?
>>
>>
>> I have not. I'll set that up tonight when I get home from work.
>
>
> Have you looked at what is in /var/log/messages or /var/log/dmesg?  I'm not
> sure those are the right log files to check, but someone else will know
> which are best to look at.

If linux crashed hard, it may not have had the ability to write to
disk. sometimes it is preceeded by oopses or non-fatal panics, but in
my experience not often enough.

If that machine has a serial port i would recommend setting up a
serial console, (for example:
http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-set-up-a-serial-console-on-debian/) this
will allow you to capture kernel messages that would otherwise be
masked by X or bootsplash. All you need is another machine with a
serial port to record what is happening. If you can reproduce the
problem at will then you can keep an eye on it as it happens.

There is an alternative to the serial console, the netconsole module.
Unfortunately i have had only marginal success with this one, but it
is worth a try.

the syntax is something like:
modprobe netconsole netconsole=@/eth0,515 at syslogserver/

but you can just setup a netcat listener on any port on another
machine if you do not have a syslog server( nc -l 1515 )

From erikerik at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 14:00:24 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:00:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CAMg8xavLexiW3nJ12P_xe0TAwLAB9PKACaHFpJ_Rcax37Gbwmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAMg8xavLexiW3nJ12P_xe0TAwLAB9PKACaHFpJ_Rcax37Gbwmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08opKuP_X2NO7ynhkWyeC8zsqSrfe3VRxca0NmuZB9Vvyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net> wrote:

> If linux crashed hard, it may not have had the ability to write to
> disk. sometimes it is preceeded by oopses or non-fatal panics, but in
> my experience not often enough.
>

This reminded me of something interesting I discovered accidentally a
couple years ago. My employer at that time had a fibre channel fabric,
connecting all of our headless servers to their storage.

I was performing some maintenance on the switch fabric, the nature of which
I can't remember at the moment, but regardless, it required me to
disconnect a couple fiber patch cables. I pulled out one of the cables and
then got distracted for a couple minutes by something else. During that
time I started getting pages about a system being inaccessible.  I started
looking into the situation and quickly discovered that instead of
disconnecting the cable I had intended to, I accidentally pulled the cable
connecting this server to our FC network, effectively pulling its storage
subsystem out from under its feet.

I re-patched that cable, then pulled up this server's console, fully
expecting to see a kernel panic. Instead of seeing that, I saw what
appeared to be a completely functional system. Not believing what I was
seeing, I checked the system's uptime and sure enough, it indeed had not
rebooted, but rather just picked up right where it left off before.

Armed with this information, I started playing around with a test system to
see how long the kernel would stay alive with *no* storage connected, and
was able to stretch things out well past the 15 minute mark with no ill
effects.

This all was a revelation to me, as I had always assumed that, absent a
working root partition, the system would immediately crash. I now know
that's not the case.

Now, in this situation, the disks were connected via fibre, so there were
no electrical/grounding ramifications to disconnecting while in use. I
certainly would not advocate trying this on non-hotplug,
electrically-connected hardware, as I'm sure you'd release the magic smoke
from *some* component. :)

-Erik
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 14:52:38 2013
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:52:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08opKuP_X2NO7ynhkWyeC8zsqSrfe3VRxca0NmuZB9Vvyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAMg8xavLexiW3nJ12P_xe0TAwLAB9PKACaHFpJ_Rcax37Gbwmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADdM08opKuP_X2NO7ynhkWyeC8zsqSrfe3VRxca0NmuZB9Vvyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0d_0vdJOd8=xAWDb8E4Y6+JA2vBRD2z9qE5_X0x041aQ@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. I had a guy at a previous job who was using a bootable
Linux thumb drive (not live, drive and ram were the primary storage) I
had made with some preset tools. He kept complaining the file system
was corrupting- turns out when he was done he would take out the thumb
drive (his idea of a shut down). I've also accidentally pulled a thumb
drive running Linux out before- usually panics in about 30 seconds,
and plugging it in quickly when remembering it's the system drive
doesn't help ;-)

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net> wrote:
>>
>> If linux crashed hard, it may not have had the ability to write to
>> disk. sometimes it is preceeded by oopses or non-fatal panics, but in
>> my experience not often enough.
>
>
> This reminded me of something interesting I discovered accidentally a couple years ago. My employer at that time had a fibre channel fabric, connecting all of our headless servers to their storage.
>
> I was performing some maintenance on the switch fabric, the nature of which I can't remember at the moment, but regardless, it required me to disconnect a couple fiber patch cables. I pulled out one of the cables and then got distracted for a couple minutes by something else. During that time I started getting pages about a system being inaccessible.  I started looking into the situation and quickly discovered that instead of disconnecting the cable I had intended to, I accidentally pulled the cable connecting this server to our FC network, effectively pulling its storage subsystem out from under its feet.
>
> I re-patched that cable, then pulled up this server's console, fully expecting to see a kernel panic. Instead of seeing that, I saw what appeared to be a completely functional system. Not believing what I was seeing, I checked the system's uptime and sure enough, it indeed had not rebooted, but rather just picked up right where it left off before.
>
> Armed with this information, I started playing around with a test system to see how long the kernel would stay alive with *no* storage connected, and was able to stretch things out well past the 15 minute mark with no ill effects.
>
> This all was a revelation to me, as I had always assumed that, absent a working root partition, the system would immediately crash. I now know that's not the case.
>
> Now, in this situation, the disks were connected via fibre, so there were no electrical/grounding ramifications to disconnecting while in use. I certainly would not advocate trying this on non-hotplug, electrically-connected hardware, as I'm sure you'd release the magic smoke from *some* component. :)
>
> -Erik
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 14:59:16 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:59:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] How to debug an intermittent super hard freeze?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0d_0vdJOd8=xAWDb8E4Y6+JA2vBRD2z9qE5_X0x041aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KU=r5Zw8pXj1cX2OrfCeOF8SMkk5D3D=7d2dzLTpvw+bA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO1V8zghX8wQ5UqLDhrwU5W5AT=hO6MxWk6eGNR7Zksv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KX2mPB7yhY1yL9TMe5i=_h1LTDmBo1pqa6wRtNQs_8mBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJCD7j7arU07dKp5YCqZzJRYDiBHYAsoxg+4XiDemOhEoRMxTg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFE18KW_gA0xH8GAOVyFb-zmfo6DNObvDJw8wJZUreAig6q0Zw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1301301551020.6130@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAMg8xavLexiW3nJ12P_xe0TAwLAB9PKACaHFpJ_Rcax37Gbwmw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADdM08opKuP_X2NO7ynhkWyeC8zsqSrfe3VRxca0NmuZB9Vvyw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0d_0vdJOd8=xAWDb8E4Y6+JA2vBRD2z9qE5_X0x041aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08owb92u6U1sZK57T33o2QPKWeQT8=nvzTMKmLJdOxUxHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've also accidentally pulled a thumb
> drive running Linux out before- usually panics in about 30 seconds,
> and plugging it in quickly when remembering it's the system drive
> doesn't help ;-)
>

I'm guessing the difference there lies in the fact that when you pull the
thumbdrive, the USB subsystem removes the device node, which needless to
say, messes things up.

In the case of fibre channel, the device node is still there (the PCIe
HBA), so the kernel still sees the device. It just thinks accessing the
storage itself is *really* slow. :)
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From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 15:39:25 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 15:39:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] *Saturday* Penguins Unbound Meeting January 26th
 2013!
In-Reply-To: <5102289D.7010105@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <5102289D.7010105@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <510AE48D.9060305@gmail.com>

On 1/25/2013 12:39 AM, Brian wrote::
>
>    Would people be interested in a Pi-Day ? A day full of Rasberry Pi
> Hacking!

Here is a pretty slick video about some guys who built a super computer 
out of 64 PI's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq5nrHz9I94


The gory details:

http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~sjc/raspberrypi/pi_supercomputer_southampton.htm?et_cid=22268265&et_rid=3671923&Linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.southampton.ac.uk%2f~sjc%2fraspberrypi%2fpi_supercomputer_southampton.htm&CMP=EMC-22268265