Sorry if my remarks upset you. I think it's incredible that you've never seen prejudice here... That must be nice. I see it all the time. I'm prejudiced myself. I think any honest person would admit that they're prejudiced. But I think it's ugly. I wish I wasn't prejudiced. I try not to be in my actions towards others. When I see it coming from a social group I consider myself a part of, I think I have a right to speak up about it. I don't think that means I've appointed myself judge and jury. Everyone has a right to his or her opinion, and everyone has a right to speak his or her mind. As for jobs, there are a lot of them out there, but maybe not the same jobs as there have been in the past. That's reality. That's the way of the world. Any minute you're feeling sorry for yourself or blaming your problems on other people is a minute you're not looking at the world and finding out a way to be useful to others. There will always be jobs for people who work hard to make themselves useful. Now rarely do I ever preach that sermon to anyone but myself. But that's what I tell myself, to keep myself going, and since I was 15, I've had work. 18 years now. Never as a farmer though. Maybe someday. Hopefully this year I'll do a decent job with the vegetable garden, and that will be a start. Enjoy the snow, -Erik On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote: > Seeing this on a linux discussion group reminds me why I'm glad to have > lived outside the Twin Cities for 30 years. > > They typecast everybody by race, color, creed, sex, origin and then call > everybody else a bigot. > > People in real world Minnesota worry about 20 below zero, snow, crops, > family, and yes, jobs. I've never seen prejudice against any of the declared > typecasts. But plenty of resentment toward the self appointed judge and > jury. > > This snow is welcome work. Maybe we pathetic bigots can feed you another > year. > > Erik Mitchell wrote: >> >> My remark was not directed at you, Robert. Just continuing on the end of >> the thread. >> >> On Sunday, February 10, 2013, Robert Nesius wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Erik >>> Mitchell<erik.mitchell at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>> 'erik.mitchell at gmail.com');> >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> In my career, I've had the good fortune of working with people from >>>> all over the world. India, China, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, Canada, >>>> Latvia, Jamaica, as well as other countries I'm sure I'm forgetting. I >>>> consider my life richer for the friends I've made, and I've always >>>> felt bad when my friends have to deal with extra hassles to deal with >>>> immigration issues, just so they can live and work where they'd like >>>> to on this planet. I've felt ashamed when I see fellow Americans treat >>>> them badly, just because they were born elsewhere on the planet. >>>> >>>> I hope in my lifetime I'll have the chance to travel to other >>>> countries to live and work, and I hope to find people who are >>>> welcoming, rather than the type of people to bitch and moan about >>>> their lot in life, like I'm seeing on this thread. I think it's >>>> bigoted and pathetic, and I'm glad I don't work with you. >>>> >>>> That is all. >>>> >>>> -Erik >>>> >>> >>> How nice of you to make assumptions and pronouncements about what a bad >>> person I seem to be. If your comments aren't directed at me despite >>> responding to my post, my apologies. But with that said... >>> >>> I too have worked with people all over the world. I used to manage a >>> service across 50+ sites world-wide and worked with people on every >>> continent except Antartica. Without fail the people I worked with were >>> good people, and I enjoyed all of my interactions with them. My comments >>> were not intended to be mass indictments. However, that said, cheap >>> over-seas talent is not a magic bullet for lowering costs. I've met >>> multiple managers who've tried to move software development activities >>> overseas, and they could not attain high quality results until they >>> relocated people over there to supervise and manage and once they did >>> that >>> the value proposition evaporated. However, cheap labor in manufacturing >>> sectors has in fact yielded some big returns, as evidenced by trying to >>> buy >>> something Made in the USA in Walmart. >>> >>> However, that same quality risk exists for manufacturing processes >>> overseas. The company I work with now uses heavy-lifting devices to lift >>> heavy pre-cast concrete panels. We had one fail, which dropped a 20-ton >>> panel onto a crane (destroyed the crane, but the operator escaped >>> unscathed). When we tested the lifting devices we discovered a >>> non-trivial >>> percentage of them were failing. When we engaged the supplier and asked >>> why, we learned he'd stopped sourcing his steel from American mills and >>> was >>> bringing in steel from China that was certified by the supplier to be of >>> the same quality (but clearly wasn't). >>> >>> Switching back to labor as a resource though, before condemning anyone >>> with protectionist tendencies as bigoted and pathetic, I would suggest >>> you >>> try to find a job with your technical skills in Canada, Australia, and >>> most >>> European countries. What you'll find is that the governments of those >>> countries protect their labor markets, and the companies supposedly >>> burdened by the higher labor costs are still very successful. >>> >>> Regardless, this is an issue of public policy, not bigotry. >>> >>> Kind regards. >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Robert >>>> Nesius<nesius at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'nesius at gmail.com');>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Andrew >>>>> Dahl<droidjd at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'droidjd at gmail.com');>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting note regarding companies hiring overseas. My >>>> >>>> brother-in-law's >>>>>> >>>>>> employer has started to shift from hiring people in India to hiring >>>> >>>> people >>>>>> >>>>>> here, citing the ROI as the reason. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A lot of companies have found the increased overhead/supervision to >>>>> make >>>>> sure the low-rent overseas talent produces offsets the savings by going >>>>> overseas. >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> >>>> 'tclug-list at mn-linux.org');> >>>> >>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Erik K. Mitchell >>>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> 'erik.mitchell at gmail.com');> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> 'tclug-list at mn-linux.org');> >>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Erik K. Mitchell erik.mitchell at gmail.com On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote: > Seeing this on a linux discussion group reminds me why I'm glad to have > lived outside the Twin Cities for 30 years. > > They typecast everybody by race, color, creed, sex, origin and then call > everybody else a bigot. > > People in real world Minnesota worry about 20 below zero, snow, crops, > family, and yes, jobs. I've never seen prejudice against any of the declared > typecasts. But plenty of resentment toward the self appointed judge and > jury. > > This snow is welcome work. Maybe we pathetic bigots can feed you another > year. > > Erik Mitchell wrote: >> >> My remark was not directed at you, Robert. Just continuing on the end of >> the thread. >> >> On Sunday, February 10, 2013, Robert Nesius wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Erik >>> Mitchell<erik.mitchell at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>> 'erik.mitchell at gmail.com');> >>> >>>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> In my career, I've had the good fortune of working with people from >>>> all over the world. India, China, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, Canada, >>>> Latvia, Jamaica, as well as other countries I'm sure I'm forgetting. I >>>> consider my life richer for the friends I've made, and I've always >>>> felt bad when my friends have to deal with extra hassles to deal with >>>> immigration issues, just so they can live and work where they'd like >>>> to on this planet. I've felt ashamed when I see fellow Americans treat >>>> them badly, just because they were born elsewhere on the planet. >>>> >>>> I hope in my lifetime I'll have the chance to travel to other >>>> countries to live and work, and I hope to find people who are >>>> welcoming, rather than the type of people to bitch and moan about >>>> their lot in life, like I'm seeing on this thread. I think it's >>>> bigoted and pathetic, and I'm glad I don't work with you. >>>> >>>> That is all. >>>> >>>> -Erik >>>> >>> >>> How nice of you to make assumptions and pronouncements about what a bad >>> person I seem to be. If your comments aren't directed at me despite >>> responding to my post, my apologies. But with that said... >>> >>> I too have worked with people all over the world. I used to manage a >>> service across 50+ sites world-wide and worked with people on every >>> continent except Antartica. Without fail the people I worked with were >>> good people, and I enjoyed all of my interactions with them. My comments >>> were not intended to be mass indictments. However, that said, cheap >>> over-seas talent is not a magic bullet for lowering costs. I've met >>> multiple managers who've tried to move software development activities >>> overseas, and they could not attain high quality results until they >>> relocated people over there to supervise and manage and once they did >>> that >>> the value proposition evaporated. However, cheap labor in manufacturing >>> sectors has in fact yielded some big returns, as evidenced by trying to >>> buy >>> something Made in the USA in Walmart. >>> >>> However, that same quality risk exists for manufacturing processes >>> overseas. The company I work with now uses heavy-lifting devices to lift >>> heavy pre-cast concrete panels. We had one fail, which dropped a 20-ton >>> panel onto a crane (destroyed the crane, but the operator escaped >>> unscathed). When we tested the lifting devices we discovered a >>> non-trivial >>> percentage of them were failing. When we engaged the supplier and asked >>> why, we learned he'd stopped sourcing his steel from American mills and >>> was >>> bringing in steel from China that was certified by the supplier to be of >>> the same quality (but clearly wasn't). >>> >>> Switching back to labor as a resource though, before condemning anyone >>> with protectionist tendencies as bigoted and pathetic, I would suggest >>> you >>> try to find a job with your technical skills in Canada, Australia, and >>> most >>> European countries. What you'll find is that the governments of those >>> countries protect their labor markets, and the companies supposedly >>> burdened by the higher labor costs are still very successful. >>> >>> Regardless, this is an issue of public policy, not bigotry. >>> >>> Kind regards. >>> >>> -Rob >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Robert >>>> Nesius<nesius at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'nesius at gmail.com');>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Andrew >>>>> Dahl<droidjd at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'droidjd at gmail.com');>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Interesting note regarding companies hiring overseas. My >>>> >>>> brother-in-law's >>>>>> >>>>>> employer has started to shift from hiring people in India to hiring >>>> >>>> people >>>>>> >>>>>> here, citing the ROI as the reason. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A lot of companies have found the increased overhead/supervision to >>>>> make >>>>> sure the low-rent overseas talent produces offsets the savings by going >>>>> overseas. >>>>> >>>>> -Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> >>>> 'tclug-list at mn-linux.org');> >>>> >>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Erik K. Mitchell >>>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> 'erik.mitchell at gmail.com');> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >>>> 'tclug-list at mn-linux.org');> >>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Erik K. Mitchell erik.mitchell at gmail.com