From n0nas at amsat.org  Sun Aug  1 11:18:32 2010
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:18:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Recycling in Hennepin county for Ramsey County
	residents?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1280595603.12200.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3.1280595603.12200.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4C559E58.7010901@amsat.org>

<http://www.rethinkrecycling.com/residents/throw-buy/materials-name/electronics-tvs-computers>

This lists all the recycling operations in the metro area.
I used the Washington County site because it was free for any metro area 
residents.
They ask for identification and note your name & address then charge it 
back to Ramsey County.
I think that is what I like best about the program. It has been over a 
year since I was there.
Based on the email from Jima, I have to assume it is still free for 
electronics.

Asset Recovery Corp was one of the places listed. I think I was told 
they charge for monitors but give a credit for PC cards.
(The PC cards may have gold or other precious metals that can be separated.)

<http://www.co.ramsey.mn.us/ph/hw/household_hazardous_waste_collection_sites.htm>

This is from the Ramsey County recycling web site and lists the sites 
and places inside the county.
Again, I didn't see any answer to the cost question. The site says call 
and ask first.
That is why I went to Washington County......
They were a little unsure about some of the stuff I brought 
(oscilliscope chassis, card cages, rack mount stuff) and asked if it was 
household waste.
I just said it was scrap from MY household.....

Doug.


From scottbb1973 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 11:40:09 2010
From: scottbb1973 at gmail.com (Scott Berry)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:40:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux certifications.
Message-ID: <4c55a35a.5f83e60a.57bc.ffff80e5@mx.google.com>

In my own opinion any cert is good.  The .more certs you have the better.  I would rather be over qualified than under qualified.  My dream is to work with Linux and Asterisk PBX as a full time job.

-----Original Message-----
From: r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 15:57
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux certifications.

I am looking at getting a?Linux?certification. Is anyone on the LUG RHCT or RHCE certified ? I have heard The LPI certs do not carry much weight, and that Linux+ is very basic. Would locking myself?in to a?distribution?specific certification be a waste of money ??
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From marc at e-skinner.net  Sun Aug  1 13:23:07 2010
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 13:23:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux certifications.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimnsaba2FFDOx3O2fHQUeynjsDPegv_muMO0_Sv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimnsaba2FFDOx3O2fHQUeynjsDPegv_muMO0_Sv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C55BB8B.7030403@e-skinner.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Just to be upfront - I do work for Red Hat.  I'm an RHCA and your right
the LPI certs don't compare to the RHCT,RHCE, and RHCA certs.  The exams
from RH are very hard, typically we see about 30-40% pass rate.

http://www.redhat.com/certification/

If your looking for a Linux based position these days, most are looking
for the RHCT or RHCE certifications.  I guess that is saying something.

As Scott put it - certs are good, the more the better - and I have found
them to be the most important during the job hunt.

Good luck.


On 07/31/2010 03:57 PM, r j wrote:
> I am looking at getting a Linux certification. Is anyone on the LUG RHCT
> or RHCE certified ? I have heard The LPI certs do not carry much weight,
> and that Linux+ is very basic. Would locking myself in to
> a distribution specific certification be a waste of money ? 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Sun Aug  1 18:45:37 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:45:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] recover VG superblock?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimkjOw98wW_Kjt70Js9saa6DW1X_G2vbudhdTCB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimkjOw98wW_Kjt70Js9saa6DW1X_G2vbudhdTCB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimT1pdtOPCUULwnWbzqaWWymCNw0v-TMCbSyTiX@mail.gmail.com>

i wanted another primary partition.? my (rhel5.4) VG has lots of free
space.? i want to remote-install rhel6 beta 2 from harddisk, seems an
rhel6 askmethod install gets stuck initializing the nics.

so i shrunk the big PV with pvresize, shrunk the underlying raid1 with
mdadm, so far so good, but presumably the next step went awry, i
removed and recreated the underlying partitions with parted in attempt
to shrink them.? to cut to the chase, now the system boots and the LV
filesystem's fine, but at the same time lvm doesn't seem to think it
has any VG, PV, or LV anymore.

so, what should i have done, what can i do now, and where should i be
asking these questions?

in more detail, i did
?? pvresize --setphysicalvolumesize 280G /dev/md1?????? #(over)shrink
(regrow later to actual smaller size)
?? mdadm --grow /dev/md1 --size=292000000?????????????? #(over)shrink
raid(in Kibibytes)
?? parted
????? sel /dev/sdb
???????? rm 2
? ? ? ? mkpart primary ext2 107MB 309970MB
? ? ? ? ? ?which gave error, so i presumed it had done nothing, but
? ? ? ? mkpart primary 107MB 309970MB
? ? ? ? ? ?this made it clear the prior mkpart had recreated the
partition afterall
???????? set 2 raid on
????? sel /dev/sda
? ? ? ? rm 2
? ? ? ? mkpart primary 107MB 309970MB
? ? ? ? ? ?no fstype, no error
? ? ? ? set 2 raid on
?? mdadm --grow /dev/md1
????? mdadm: no changes to --grow

so i rebooted, with no problem, thinking perhaps parted's changes
weren't visible yet. ?now:
? mdadm --query /dev/md1
? ? ?/dev/md1: is an md device which is not active
? ? ?/dev/md1: No md super block found, not an md component.
? mdadm --examine /dev/sda2
? ? ?mdadm: No md superblock detected on /dev/sda2.
? mdadm --examine /dev/sdb2
? ? ?mdadm: No md superblock detected on /dev/sdb2.
and vgs, pvs, and lvs all produce no output.

so, is there any way to recover or rebuild the PV/VG superblock? ?is
this what i actually need to do? ?i'd expect someone somewhere has
been here before, or at least knows better about this stuff than i
do..

also, if mdadm doesn't think there's a raid anymore, still perhaps
some layer in the kernel knows better, or are current filesystem
changes only going to sda perhaps? ?how might i probe this? ?or
recover from it? ?mounted filesystems do bear the proper LV device
names fwiw..


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Aug  1 22:59:18 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:59:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
Message-ID: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.

-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Mon Aug  2 12:23:41 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:23:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for Oinkmaster-bleedingsort.conf
Message-ID: <4C56FF1D.1060905@netscape.net>

Does anyone use the Bleedingsnort rules with there SNORT setup?

If so, can I see a copy Oinkmaster-bleedingsort.conf file?

Thanks!

Bob


From kevin.grelling at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 15:09:22 2010
From: kevin.grelling at gmail.com (Kevin P. Grelling)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:09:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C5725F2.3090103@gmail.com>

  On 8/1/2010 10:59 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.
>
OldGuyBit <= 1;

     "Just" 256 MB of RAM.  Cripes.  I'm having a heat-attack here.  :-)

     OK, I still fondly remember my first PC with 64K of RAM and 
VisiCalc (spreadsheet) running in just 23K of RAM.

OldGuyBit <=0;

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From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Aug  2 15:31:57 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:31:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <4C5725F2.3090103@gmail.com>;
	from kevin.grelling@gmail.com on Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 03:09:22PM
	-0500
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C5725F2.3090103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100802153157.I29146@real-time.com>

On 08/02 03:09 , Kevin P. Grelling wrote:
>   On 8/1/2010 10:59 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> OldGuyBit <= 1;
> 
>      "Just" 256 MB of RAM.  Cripes.  I'm having a heat-attack here.  :-)
> 
>      OK, I still fondly remember my first PC with 64K of RAM and 
> VisiCalc (spreadsheet) running in just 23K of RAM.
> 
> OldGuyBit <=0;

I'm having the same reaction here.
I remember not many years ago, running a DNS server in 5MB of RAM.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Aug  2 15:48:55 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:48:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <20100802153157.I29146@real-time.com>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C5725F2.3090103@gmail.com> <20100802153157.I29146@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008021548320.24033@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> I remember not many years ago, running a DNS server in 5MB of RAM.

Pfft. Back in MY day we didn't RUN programs, we WALKED them!


-Yaron

--


From trieff at greencaremankato.com  Tue Aug  3 08:33:00 2010
From: trieff at greencaremankato.com (Thomas Rieff)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
Message-ID: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>

TCLUG, 
I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues. 
So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp. 
Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..." 
Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd??? 
Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test??? 
Any thoughts??? 
Tom 

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 

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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Aug  3 08:57:55 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:57:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
Message-ID: <20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM?  Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu.  In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware.  It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them.  Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.

Try a lighter distro for rescuing files, such as Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, or Damn Small Linux.  I know for a fact that Puppy Linux can recognize Windows files.

If booting from a live CD doesn't work, then try booting from a USB drive instead.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
Thomas Rieff <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:

> TCLUG, 
> I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues. 
> So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp. 
> Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..." 
> Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd??? 
> Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test??? 
> Any thoughts??? 
> Tom 
> 
> Thomas Rieff 
> GreenCare 
> 1717 3rd Avenue 
> Mankato, MN 56001 
> (507) 344-8314 Office 
> (507) 344-8316 Fax 
> (507) 381-0660 Cell 
> 
> 


-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From dniesen at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 09:16:25 2010
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:16:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: IT services CRM/ERP system?
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5E=TD8Y1XxuqDpWxw95TsbV09qfiL0K3VMLf9@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody out there using a CRM or ERP system for tracking customers,
jobs/cases/projects and possibly light financial (invoicing and
payments) that they like?  Something open source and customizable
would be great but it's not a limiting factor by any means.

We had been working on making a customized version of SugarCRM work
for our business but the workflow involved seems much more complicated
and tedious.


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From jeremy at jskier.com  Tue Aug  3 09:15:56 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:15:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik=Cx5WXwguUUYLdBPSu6w7rgW1_wHxq0h8BKp6@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with using another distro for what you are trying to do. I use
Clonezilla to do imaging recovery and backups - http://clonezilla.org,
I have yet to come across a machine that won't boot with this.

I'm guessing with this Ubuntu live cd talk you want a GUI in Linux,
which could be a problem on an older system. Mounting an NTFS
partition and copying files does not take much command line to
accomplish- if you do in fact need any help with this let me or the
mailing list know.

Good luck,

Jeremy MountainJohnson
jeremy at jskier.com



On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>
> Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM? ?Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu. ?In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware. ?It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them. ?Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.
>
> Try a lighter distro for rescuing files, such as Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, or Damn Small Linux. ?I know for a fact that Puppy Linux can recognize Windows files.
>
> If booting from a live CD doesn't work, then try booting from a USB drive instead.
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
> Thomas Rieff <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:
>
> > TCLUG,
> > I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues.
> > So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp.
> > Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..."
> > Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd???
> > Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test???
> > Any thoughts???
> > Tom
> >
> > Thomas Rieff
> > GreenCare
> > 1717 3rd Avenue
> > Mankato, MN 56001
> > (507) 344-8314 Office
> > (507) 344-8316 Fax
> > (507) 381-0660 Cell
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 09:38:33 2010
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:38:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35> 
	<20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7z0F1DT1tBoi=8CLZL9_bqA0XYmWwWBt6VUuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM? ?Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu. ?In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware. ?It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them. ?Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.

I really don't think that was necessary.  Your opinion may be that
Ubuntu is bloatware, but that does not give any actual reason for why
he would be unable to boot from a live CD for troubleshooting and
recovery purposes.  Especially considering that Ubuntu's website
specifically states that the minimum requirement for a desktop system
is 64MB of RAM.  (They also state that 512 is recommended, but that
doesn't mean the system won't boot without it.)


> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
> Thomas Rieff <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:
>> So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp.
>> Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..."
>> Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd???
>> Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test???

Given what you say, reinstalling and trying other OSes doesn't resolve
your issue, so it seems likely that it  is hardware related.  One of
the first things I would do is try the Memtest option, which I believe
is on the Ubuntu boot CD.  It should identify bad memory, if that is
your issue, and that would probably be the cheapest thing to replace.
The error you mentioned may also have something to do with your CPU.
You may want to search for that error, and you may find some helpful
information on that.
- Justin


From auditodd at comcast.net  Tue Aug  3 09:44:02 2010
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:44:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
Message-ID: <1401979914.890794.1280846642465.JavaMail.root@sz0147a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I'll second the vote for antiX as a recovery CD.

Runs quite nicely on a 1GHz Intel with 512MB of RAM from the CDROM.
Should be acceptable with even less RAM.

----------
Todd Young

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Rieff" <trieff at greencaremankato.com>
To: "TCLUG" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2010 8:33:00 AM
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails



TCLUG, 
I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues. 
So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp. 
Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..." 
Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd??? 
Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test??? 
Any thoughts??? 
Tom 

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From sloncho at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 09:49:37 2010
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:49:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7z0F1DT1tBoi=8CLZL9_bqA0XYmWwWBt6VUuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<20100803085755.702dd909.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTik7z0F1DT1tBoi=8CLZL9_bqA0XYmWwWBt6VUuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=OK0K2vJV58VnWm-Xj+C1R1QqOiQEHAg1m+w5m@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Justin Kremer <justin.kremer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
> user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>> Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM? ?Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu. ?In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware. ?It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them. ?Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.
>
> I really don't think that was necessary. ?Your opinion may be that
> Ubuntu is bloatware, but that does not give any actual reason for why
> he would be unable to boot from a live CD for troubleshooting and
> recovery purposes. ?Especially considering that Ubuntu's website
> specifically states that the minimum requirement for a desktop system
> is 64MB of RAM. ?(They also state that 512 is recommended, but that
> doesn't mean the system won't boot without it.)

Ubuntu will run on 64MB, provided you have swap. On the other hand,
the installer will not, unless there is already a swap partition to
use. Even lubuntu installer chocked on a 128 MB laptop. I had to boot
system resque cd (http://www.sysresccd.org/), shrink the existing win
partition to free some space, and create swap in the free space. After
that, I was able to start the lubuntu live/installer, as it had swap
space to use.


Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.


From eric.schultz at mchsi.com  Tue Aug  3 10:00:31 2010
From: eric.schultz at mchsi.com (Eric Schultz)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:00:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=OK0K2vJV58VnWm-Xj+C1R1QqOiQEHAg1m+w5m@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1048417507.4206961280847631120.JavaMail.root@dsmdc-mail-mbs12>

It doesn't sound like an OS issue, it sounds like an install issue, I am wondering if he did Install release, which would permanently install Ubuntu to his hard drive thus affecting his ability to install over Ubuntu or run a live version of it.  

I would only recommend switching to a different distro based upon his experience in Linux...clearly the desktop experience is different with Ubuntu then Centos.   Personally I like the ease of Ubuntu and use it as my desktop, however in terms of security, and ability to manipulate program's, I like Cento's alot better, but it isn't as smooth, and you need to use terminal in Cento's, unlike Ubuntu.  

I WOULD NEVER ADVOCATE GOING BACK TO XP.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sunny" <sloncho at gmail.com>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2010 9:49:37 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Justin Kremer <justin.kremer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
> user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>> Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM? ?Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu. ?In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware. ?It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them. ?Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.
>
> I really don't think that was necessary. ?Your opinion may be that
> Ubuntu is bloatware, but that does not give any actual reason for why
> he would be unable to boot from a live CD for troubleshooting and
> recovery purposes. ?Especially considering that Ubuntu's website
> specifically states that the minimum requirement for a desktop system
> is 64MB of RAM. ?(They also state that 512 is recommended, but that
> doesn't mean the system won't boot without it.)

Ubuntu will run on 64MB, provided you have swap. On the other hand,
the installer will not, unless there is already a swap partition to
use. Even lubuntu installer chocked on a 128 MB laptop. I had to boot
system resque cd (http://www.sysresccd.org/), shrink the existing win
partition to free some space, and create swap in the free space. After
that, I was able to start the lubuntu live/installer, as it had swap
space to use.


Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From trieff at greencaremankato.com  Tue Aug  3 11:53:13 2010
From: trieff at greencaremankato.com (Thomas Rieff)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 11:53:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <32471408.831280853773968.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
Message-ID: <20817991.851280854141140.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>

Jason,
Thanks for responding. I have 1024 memory installed.
It is a P4P800MX with a 3.0 GHz processor.
I have been using Win 2000, to avoid the upgrade mania it creates.
Our customer database is written in Visual Fox. It is my goal to convert in the next 5 years to a browser based, os independent system. Good reason to follow the open source, Linux based software systems.
I can try a different Linux distro. Its just that I had the ubuntu cds laying withing arms reach. 
Tom

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user" <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Cc: "Thomas Rieff" <trieff at greencaremankato.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2010 8:57:55 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara / Mexico City / Monterrey
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails

Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM?  Given that the computer came with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in which case it has no business running Ubuntu.  In my opinion, Ubuntu is bloatware.  It has its merits, but running on very old computers is not one of them.  Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows XP.

Try a lighter distro for rescuing files, such as Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, or Damn Small Linux.  I know for a fact that Puppy Linux can recognize Windows files.

If booting from a live CD doesn't work, then try booting from a USB drive instead.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
Thomas Rieff <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:

> TCLUG, 
> I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues. 
> So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp. 
> Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..." 
> Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd??? 
> Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test??? 
> Any thoughts??? 
> Tom 
> 
> Thomas Rieff 
> GreenCare 
> 1717 3rd Avenue 
> Mankato, MN 56001 
> (507) 344-8314 Office 
> (507) 344-8316 Fax 
> (507) 381-0660 Cell 
> 
> 


-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From swaite at sbn-services.com  Tue Aug  3 12:28:12 2010
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 12:28:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
Message-ID: <1280856492.4c5851ac74ea5@g3.sbn-services.com>


I have loaded up quite a number of computers, some recently with less
than 1GB using live CDs. Memory should not be a problem here. Anyways,
what you are essentially looking to do it seems is access files on
Windows (FAT-NTFS) to copy to another machine? In that case, why not
just remove the hard drive and install it as a secondary in another
machine? Transferring and accessing files would be infinitely quicker.

Alternatively if Linux gives you some issues there is always WinPE,
which is essentially creating a XP live CD. Useful when you need
certain Windows only programs in a live environment. I have used this
to access servers that I needed to slipstream in specific drivers.
However, unless the hardware is rare or non supported you shouldn't
need this. In my experience the WinPE is much quicker and responsive
than the mainstream Linux Live CD distros like Ubuntu which
essentially try to load an entire OS full of junk. Ubuntu even loads
the bleeping eye candy crap.

At Tuesday, 03-08-2010 on 11:53 Thomas Rieff wrote:

Jason,
Thanks for responding. I have 1024 memory installed.
It is a P4P800MX with a 3.0 GHz processor.
I have been using Win 2000, to avoid the upgrade mania it creates.
Our customer database is written in Visual Fox. It is my goal to
convert in the next 5 years to a browser based, os independent system.
Good reason to follow the open source, Linux based software systems.
I can try a different Linux distro. Its just that I had the ubuntu
cds laying withing arms reach. 
Tom

Thomas Rieff 
GreenCare 
1717 3rd Avenue 
Mankato, MN 56001 
(507) 344-8314 Office 
(507) 344-8316 Fax 
(507) 381-0660 Cell 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user" 
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" 
Cc: "Thomas Rieff" 

Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2010 8:57:55 AM GMT -06:00 Guadalajara /
Mexico City / Monterrey
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails

Do you have at least 512 MB of RAM???Given that the computer came
with Windows 2000, I think there's a good chance that it doesn't, in
which case it has no business running Ubuntu.??In my opinion, Ubuntu
is bloatware.??It has its merits, but running on very old computers
is not one of them.??Ubuntu is roughly as resource-hungry as Windows
XP.

Try a lighter distro for rescuing files, such as Puppy Linux, antiX
Linux, or Damn Small Linux.??I know for a fact that Puppy Linux can
recognize Windows files.

If booting from a live CD doesn't work, then try booting from a USB
drive instead.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:33:00 -0500 (CDT)
Thomas Rieff 
 wrote:

> TCLUG, 
> I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues. 
> So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp. 
> Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped
a ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the
files that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different
things, including the video card corrections, but it stops at
"checking 'hlt' instruction..." 
> Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd??? 
> Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test??? 
> Any thoughts??? 
> Tom 
> 
> Thomas Rieff 
> GreenCare 
> 1717 3rd Avenue 
> Mankato, MN 56001 
> (507) 344-8314 Office 
> (507) 344-8316 Fax 
> (507) 381-0660 Cell 
> 
> 

-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user 

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Aug  3 13:20:37 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:20:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <20817991.851280854141140.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
References: <32471408.831280853773968.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<20817991.851280854141140.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
Message-ID: <20100803132037.c01501fe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Given that a 3GHz processor and 1024 MB of RAM are plenty for Ubuntu, insufficient memory isn't an issue.

Are you sure the computer BIOS is set to boot up from CD before booting up from the hard drive?

Are you sure that the Ubuntu CD is in good condition?  I recently had difficulty with an antiX Linux live CD.  (It booted up, but certain things didn't work.)  The md5sum showed no problems, but the CD was scratched.  I burned antiX Linux to a new CD and had no problems.  So I think certain distros and/or CD drives are finicky.   

I also learned earlier on to boot antiX Linux only on a CD-R and not a CD-RW on my two old desktop computers.  For some reason, they had difficulty booting up antiX Linux on a CD-RW but had no problems with antiX Linux on a CD-R.  Strangely enough, I had no trouble booting up other distros (like Damn Small Linux, Puppy Linux, and minimal command-line-only Ubuntu) on a CD-RW on the same computers.  Again, I think certain distros and/or CD drives are finicky.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 11:53:13 -0500 (CDT)
Thomas Rieff <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:

> Jason,
> Thanks for responding. I have 1024 memory installed.
> It is a P4P800MX with a 3.0 GHz processor.
> I have been using Win 2000, to avoid the upgrade mania it creates.
> Our customer database is written in Visual Fox. It is my goal to convert in the next 5 years to a browser based, os independent system. Good reason to follow the open source, Linux based software systems.
> I can try a different Linux distro. Its just that I had the ubuntu cds laying withing arms reach. 
> Tom
> 
> Thomas Rieff 
> GreenCare 
> 1717 3rd Avenue 
> Mankato, MN 56001 
> (507) 344-8314 Office 
> (507) 344-8316 Fax 
> (507) 381-0660 Cell 
> 
-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From sfertch at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 13:28:24 2010
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:28:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikb=Yy=+avDsCCNHUbNp5JRwamR=dUj-RoEdeQ0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<AANLkTikb=Yy=+avDsCCNHUbNp5JRwamR=dUj-RoEdeQ0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim6xuc_jN78ry+iB6HCD+Aha=2Q9-fS7SW-TZt5@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 3, 2010 8:49 AM, "Thomas Rieff" <trieff at greencaremankato.com> wrote:

TCLUG,
I have a win 2000 pc in our office that seems to have issues.
So no problem, I will just backup the files and reload with xp.
Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a ubuntu
9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought  I would save the files that way.
Ubuntu live cd won't load. I have tried many different things, including the
video card corrections, but it stops at "checking 'hlt' instruction..."
Maybe the hard drive is bad, but it should load a live cd???
Maybe the motherboard or cpu is bad, how do I tell or test???
Any thoughts???
Tom

Thomas Rieff
GreenCare
1717 3rd Avenue
Mankato, MN 56001
(507) 344-8314 Office
(507) 344-8316 Fax
(507) 381-0660 Cell


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From rick at real-time.com  Tue Aug  3 13:40:03 2010
From: rick at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:40:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
References: <32317396.801280842124750.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
Message-ID: <4C586283.7010406@real-time.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> Well it is currently very flakey with the current os, so I dropped a
> ubuntu 9.04, 9.1, 10.04 live cds in and thought I would save the files
> that way. Ubuntu live cd won't load.

Just a thought.. make sure it's a live cd for the right CPU
architecture.  For instance, 32bit vs 64bit.


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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 13:41:53 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:41:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Live CD Fails
In-Reply-To: <20100803132037.c01501fe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <32471408.831280853773968.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<20817991.851280854141140.JavaMail.SYSTEM@gc35>
	<20100803132037.c01501fe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008031340240.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:

> Are you sure that the Ubuntu CD is in good condition?  I recently had 
> difficulty with an antiX Linux live CD.  (It booted up, but certain 
> things didn't work.)  The md5sum showed no problems, but the CD was 
> scratched.  I burned antiX Linux to a new CD and had no problems.  So I 
> think certain distros and/or CD drives are finicky.


I've burned Ubuntu CDs that failed the test that is provided as an option 
on the CD.  Now I always run the test before installing.

Mike


From blawrence at qwest.net  Tue Aug  3 23:27:05 2010
From: blawrence at qwest.net (Brian Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:27:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] GPGPU
Message-ID: <1E44BC25C67E4251B2EA52EF9DD11E5E@dcm.int>

Does anyone on the list have experience building and maintaining GPGPU
machines running openSUSE with the NVIDIA Tesla C2050 GPU?

Brian




From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Aug  4 00:37:59 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:37:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NetGear 24 port 10/100 hub
Message-ID: <004f01cb3397$36897f10$a39c7d30$@org>

Anyone want it?  It's been collecting dust for some months now, and hoping
someone can use it.  Nothing wrong with it, just upgraded to a Gigabit
switch earlier this year.




From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Aug  4 20:15:16 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 20:15:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NetGear 24 port 10/100 hub
In-Reply-To: <004f01cb3397$36897f10$a39c7d30$@org>
References: <004f01cb3397$36897f10$a39c7d30$@org>
Message-ID: <002501cb343b$adbef980$093cec80$@org>

Yep, it's spoken for...


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Jensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 12:38 AM
To: 'TCLUG Mailing List'
Subject: [tclug-list] NetGear 24 port 10/100 hub

Anyone want it?  It's been collecting dust for some months now, and hoping
someone can use it.  Nothing wrong with it, just upgraded to a Gigabit
switch earlier this year.



_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 21:15:42 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 21:15:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: IT services CRM/ERP system?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5E=TD8Y1XxuqDpWxw95TsbV09qfiL0K3VMLf9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=5E=TD8Y1XxuqDpWxw95TsbV09qfiL0K3VMLf9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7YDARgB0AfFXEpj7GaeUX-7PSXKEr=DWbqibQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just wanted to say my company uses Microsoft Dynamics Nav,
and having seen what an ERP system can mean to a business
I don't think I'd use one that didn't have a vendor behind it with
a long-term support horizon.

-Rob


On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Anybody out there using a CRM or ERP system for tracking customers,
> jobs/cases/projects and possibly light financial (invoicing and
> payments) that they like?  Something open source and customizable
> would be great but it's not a limiting factor by any means.
>
> We had been working on making a customized version of SugarCRM work
> for our business but the workflow involved seems much more complicated
> and tedious.
>
>
> --
> Donovan Niesen
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From taanerud at comcast.net  Wed Aug  4 22:20:48 2010
From: taanerud at comcast.net (Timothy Aanerud)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:20:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] lightweight Linux distros;
 Was: Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C5A2E10.2090107@comcast.net>

  Do any of the lightweight's use a 2.6 Kernel?  The last time I looked 
at Damn Small Linux it was using a 2.4 kernel.
--
Timothy.

On 8/1/2010 10:59 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.
>



From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Aug  4 22:33:14 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 22:33:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] lightweight Linux distros;
 Was: Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <4C5A2E10.2090107@comcast.net>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C5A2E10.2090107@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20100804223314.97934531.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Puppy Linux and antiX Linux use 2.6 kernels.  Damn Small Linux is the only distro (or at least the only well-known distro) that I know of that still uses 2.4.

On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:20:48 -0500
Timothy Aanerud <taanerud at comcast.net> wrote:

>   Do any of the lightweight's use a 2.6 Kernel?  The last time I looked 
> at Damn Small Linux it was using a 2.4 kernel.
> --
> Timothy.
> 
> On 8/1/2010 10:59 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> > If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From kris.browne at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 09:05:09 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kris Browne)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 09:05:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: IT services CRM/ERP system?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=7YDARgB0AfFXEpj7GaeUX-7PSXKEr=DWbqibQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=5E=TD8Y1XxuqDpWxw95TsbV09qfiL0K3VMLf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=7YDARgB0AfFXEpj7GaeUX-7PSXKEr=DWbqibQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimKfzQPgUhXr-s1dMYtAzOH9DpxLatJN7nsQy5-@mail.gmail.com>

CRM is one of the markets where open source community versions, with
commercial support available, is a really popular option. SugarCRM (
http://www.sugarcrm.com/crm/) is routinely rated among the best CRM packages
around and that's been their business model.

Kris Browne
kris.browne at gmail.com
612-353-6969
612-408-4431
http://www.google.com/profiles/kris.browne

"the least expensive, most bug-free line of code is the one you didn't have
to write." - Steve Jobs


On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 21:15, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just wanted to say my company uses Microsoft Dynamics Nav,
> and having seen what an ERP system can mean to a business
> I don't think I'd use one that didn't have a vendor behind it with
> a long-term support horizon.
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Anybody out there using a CRM or ERP system for tracking customers,
>> jobs/cases/projects and possibly light financial (invoicing and
>> payments) that they like?  Something open source and customizable
>> would be great but it's not a limiting factor by any means.
>>
>> We had been working on making a customized version of SugarCRM work
>> for our business but the workflow involved seems much more complicated
>> and tedious.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Donovan Niesen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 09:12:55 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 09:12:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: IT services CRM/ERP system?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimKfzQPgUhXr-s1dMYtAzOH9DpxLatJN7nsQy5-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=5E=TD8Y1XxuqDpWxw95TsbV09qfiL0K3VMLf9@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=7YDARgB0AfFXEpj7GaeUX-7PSXKEr=DWbqibQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimKfzQPgUhXr-s1dMYtAzOH9DpxLatJN7nsQy5-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jp1OyCKRoKado4kXxsLKL8noH2eae_Ut-mQmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah - sorry.  I see your focus is more on the CRM piece of this.
I was speaking to the ERP component of your question.  I'd be
more willing to consider something like Sugar CRM for that
functionality...  Thanks for the link.  I'm going to look more
closely at that.

-Rob

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Kris Browne <kris.browne at gmail.com> wrote:

> CRM is one of the markets where open source community versions, with
> commercial support available, is a really popular option. SugarCRM (
> http://www.sugarcrm.com/crm/) is routinely rated among the best CRM
> packages around and that's been their business model.
>
> Kris Browne
> kris.browne at gmail.com
> 612-353-6969
> 612-408-4431
> http://www.google.com/profiles/kris.browne
>
> "the least expensive, most bug-free line of code is the one you didn't have
> to write." - Steve Jobs
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 21:15, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just wanted to say my company uses Microsoft Dynamics Nav,
>> and having seen what an ERP system can mean to a business
>> I don't think I'd use one that didn't have a vendor behind it with
>> a long-term support horizon.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anybody out there using a CRM or ERP system for tracking customers,
>>> jobs/cases/projects and possibly light financial (invoicing and
>>> payments) that they like?  Something open source and customizable
>>> would be great but it's not a limiting factor by any means.
>>>
>>> We had been working on making a customized version of SugarCRM work
>>> for our business but the workflow involved seems much more complicated
>>> and tedious.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Donovan Niesen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Sat Aug  7 14:56:51 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 14:56:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for Oinkmaster-bleedingsort.conf
In-Reply-To: <4C56FF1D.1060905@netscape.net>
References: <4C56FF1D.1060905@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <4C5DBA83.5070306@netscape.net>

On 8/2/2010 12:23 PM, Mr. B-o-B wrote:
> Does anyone use the Bleedingsnort rules with there SNORT setup?
>

I was able to figure out my issue.  I was supprised no one replied. 
Does no one use snort these days?


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 13:10:41 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 13:10:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] bleeding snort.
Message-ID: <AANLkTinXF7v2bisLq22C4RgaCr8k1krXpFBZn0D9Scrx@mail.gmail.com>

I use fwsnort in my firewall IDS(intrusion detection system). But I have
never used bleeding snort. Fwsnort makes an iptables ruleset to match snort
rules.
Ron
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From jack at jacku.com  Sun Aug  8 13:53:20 2010
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 13:53:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008021548320.24033@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C5725F2.3090103@gmail.com> <20100802153157.I29146@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008021548320.24033@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin0DjBS2AZO9Z6W=JH+WOnukBtb_Ck8gg4O4_5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
> > I remember not many years ago, running a DNS server in 5MB of RAM.
>
> Pfft. Back in MY day we didn't RUN programs, we WALKED them!
>
>
> -Yaron
>
>
Bah... who needs MEGA-bytes!

My first gig as a programmer the environment had 2K RAM, 6K of EPROM and a
2K character set EPROM. The only reason we got the 6K of EPROM space was
because we had the manufacturer customize the board for us. (For those who
care it had a 6502 processor on it.)

Jack
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From jjensen at apache.org  Sun Aug  8 19:34:25 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:34:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug.org other groups link to correct
Message-ID: <001c01cb375a$a26651b0$e732f510$@org>

If someone with priv could correct a link, on the
http://tclug.org/othergroups page, the TCJUG link has a typo.  Can just use
tcjug.org too.




From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Sun Aug  8 19:40:46 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 19:40:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FREE - 5 port switch & 8 port HUB
Message-ID: <4C5F4E8E.1090408@netscape.net>

FREE

NETGEAR 5 port 10/100 unmanaged switch - model FS605

Linksys 8 port 10/100 HUB - Model EFAH08W

Send me an email if interested.

Available for pick-up in either Oakdale or NE Minneapolis

Mr. B-o-B


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  9 00:56:13 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 00:56:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FREE - 5 port switch & 8 port HUB
In-Reply-To: <4C5F4E8E.1090408@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEGGDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

I want these!  The Linksys especially!  Can pick up any time after 9am
tomorrow.

Chuck
  952-322-3281

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mr. B-o-B
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:41 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: [tclug-list] FREE - 5 port switch & 8 port HUB
>
>
> FREE
>
> NETGEAR 5 port 10/100 unmanaged switch - model FS605
>
> Linksys 8 port 10/100 HUB - Model EFAH08W
>
> Send me an email if interested.
>
> Available for pick-up in either Oakdale or NE Minneapolis
>
> Mr. B-o-B
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From thaunderdog at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 17:59:14 2010
From: thaunderdog at gmail.com (thaunderdog)
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:59:14 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: native ipv6
Message-ID: <4C608842.5070507@gmail.com>

Any local ISP's that offer native ipv6 routing?

No 4to6, 6in4, teredo, etc tunnels.


Qwest == FAIL


Thanks.


From tclugl at whitleymott.net  Tue Aug 10 10:52:19 2010
From: tclugl at whitleymott.net (gregwm)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:52:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] simple configuration management
Message-ID: <AANLkTikyzwtdpW4mhjBhExs6PFvWPknL-H6C0ghsDvuf@mail.gmail.com>

i have a little utility i wrote to insert a defined configuration into an
installed OS, and later bring forward any modifications to that
configuration, modifying configs or just copying files as necessary.  it's
strengths are keeping clear sets of backups of everything modified, and
informing me not only what's being modified, but more importantly whether
perchance anything being replaced had been modified by other than me.  other
things i like about it, it has no daemon, it has no requirements other than
bash, ssh, and rsync, it allows the system to remain entirely vanilla.

at this juncture i find myself wanting to improve this little utility to be
more flexible, to work with more variations in configurations.

at the same time i am wondering whether my precious time is better spent
improving my utility, or searching amongst the confoundingly rich array of
configuration management software already available.  when i do glance
around, what i see is way more complicated than i want.

i solicit your thoughts and recommendations.
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 13:03:38 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:03:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] gregwm simple config managment
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFUbvQiJ1+5+SpkREad+16tN=enq=2urvR=cS=@mail.gmail.com>

Go with what you have and code it. Most projects getting  bigger and bigger
and lose sight of just doing one thing well.  All of the UNIX POSIX programs
we all love do one thing well. And if the code is all yours you could make
some money off it one day.
Ron
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 12:50:02 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:50:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

My son starts college in a few days.  He has an old Dell laptop that isn't 
good enough for him, I guess.  He wants for his laptop to be his main 
computer, so he thinks he doesn't want a netbook because of the relative 
slowness of the processor.  We are thinking it would be nice to have 
either DVI or HDMI output and to have a monitor/HDTV in his dorm room 
where he can dock his laptop and also use it for TV/movies.  On the other 
hand, if he has a nice TV, does that mean that other kids will be wanting 
to watch it all the time?  They have free HD cable to the dorm rooms 
(UW-Madison).

We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) and still have 
everything working properly.  He might have to run Windows in a VM, or as 
a dual-boot setup, but I'm not sure about that (he's mostly concerned that 
he hasn't been able copy music files to his iPod Touch from Ubuntu, but 
I'll try some experiments here while he's visiting).

Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys 
have.  It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with price, power, 
battery-life, features, etc.  We'd like to keep the price down to $600.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Aug 11 13:22:19 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:22:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100811182218.GC8956@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:50:02PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) and still have 
> everything working properly.  He might have to run Windows in a VM, or as 
> a dual-boot setup, but I'm not sure about that (he's mostly concerned that 
> he hasn't been able copy music files to his iPod Touch from Ubuntu, but 
> I'll try some experiments here while he's visiting).
> 
> Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys 
> have.  It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with price, power, 
> battery-life, features, etc.  We'd like to keep the price down to $600.

I recommend a second-hand Thinkpad T series and a fresh battery.  With
X-mas money he should get an SSD, as it does wonders on battery life and
on general performance.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From brian at ropers-huilman.net  Wed Aug 11 14:46:07 2010
From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:46:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4wCp8c9gB1sLXEggNg02fuJ60K-_LZAFrYpEk@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:50, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> My son starts college in a few days. ?He has an old Dell laptop that isn't
> good enough for him, I guess. ?He wants for his laptop to be his main
> computer, ...
>
> We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) ...
>
> Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys
> have. ?It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with price, power,
> battery-life, features, etc. ?We'd like to keep the price down to $600.

Like Florin, I'd recommend an IBM ThinkPad, though I don't have a
particular model in mind and I don't know how it fits in with your
proposed budget. There's a great list (though traffic is declining)
called [ltp] linux-thinkpad at linux-thinkpad.org which is devoted to
helping people run Linux on ThinkPad systems.

For work, I've run Linux on ThinkPad laptops and used them as a
primary machine for over a decade now and I'm very happy with them.

-- 
Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
612.234.7778


From dniesen at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 14:48:02 2010
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:48:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <20100811182218.GC8956@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811182218.GC8956@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiki47+Va30JeDpRVfh6YLbMBLQOjx_+wuuheOeC@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:50:02PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) and still have
>> everything working properly. ?He might have to run Windows in a VM, or as
>> a dual-boot setup, but I'm not sure about that (he's mostly concerned that
>> he hasn't been able copy music files to his iPod Touch from Ubuntu, but
>> I'll try some experiments here while he's visiting).
>>
>> Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys
>> have. ?It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with price, power,
>> battery-life, features, etc. ?We'd like to keep the price down to $600.
>
> I recommend a second-hand Thinkpad T series and a fresh battery. ?With
> X-mas money he should get an SSD, as it does wonders on battery life and
> on general performance.
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
> ? ? ?http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>

There's a place near the U of M campus that does used Thinkpads (full
disclosure, they're my neighbor and I did their website):
http://www.computermegamall.com

I picked up a T61 that came with no visible use for about $600.  I
ended up upgrading the RAM and adding an SSD myself.  The T series
really can take a beating; it's a huge improvement over the Toshiba
Tecra I replaced.

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 11 16:33:14 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:33:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=4wCp8c9gB1sLXEggNg02fuJ60K-_LZAFrYpEk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEGLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian D.
> Ropers-Huilman
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 2:46 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:50, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My son starts college in a few days. ?He has an old Dell laptop
> that isn't
> > good enough for him, I guess. ?He wants for his laptop to be his main
> > computer, ...
> >
> > We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) ...
> >
> > Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys
> > have. ?It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with
> price, power,
> > battery-life, features, etc. ?We'd like to keep the price down to $600.
>
> Like Florin, I'd recommend an IBM ThinkPad, though I don't have a
> particular model in mind and I don't know how it fits in with your
> proposed budget. There's a great list (though traffic is declining)
> called [ltp] linux-thinkpad at linux-thinkpad.org which is devoted to
> helping people run Linux on ThinkPad systems.
>
> For work, I've run Linux on ThinkPad laptops and used them as a
> primary machine for over a decade now and I'm very happy with them.
>
> --
> Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
> 612.234.7778

I prefer a lease return Dell Latitude D  D610 or newer or D810 or newer.  I
got a fully loaded D810, fresh battery an short warranty for $196 not long
ago.  The newer D820s are available also.  The big advantage of the Dell's
is lifetime tech support, and ready availability of very good Dell
accessories like dock, etc.  I don't believe the IBM series can match the
accessory suite, used price, etc, due mainly to markey share.  Dell has a
vibration and shock (etc) spec for the Latitude D's that HP, for example,
does not.  This means the Dell is actually rated for road warriors (my HP
was not and the mobo died 3 times due to vibration even when in a proper
bag, and poperly carried in a car).


Chuck



From auditodd at comcast.net  Wed Aug 11 19:51:34 2010
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:51:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <704881440.1298850.1281574294866.JavaMail.root@sz0147a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

HP dm3 or whatever they are calling it now.

Ubuntu works just fine on it, but you could always dual-boot Windows 7 and Linux.

If he wants a built in optical drive, go for the dm4.

I preferred the dm3 because it had AMD processors.
My sister bought the dm4 because she wanted an optical drive.
Damn thing has a quad-core Intel processor, about 4x more than she will ever need.

----------
Todd Young

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
To: "TCLUG List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 12:50:02 PM
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?

My son starts college in a few days.  He has an old Dell laptop that isn't 
good enough for him, I guess.  He wants for his laptop to be his main 
computer, so he thinks he doesn't want a netbook because of the relative 
slowness of the processor.  We are thinking it would be nice to have 
either DVI or HDMI output and to have a monitor/HDTV in his dorm room 
where he can dock his laptop and also use it for TV/movies.  On the other 
hand, if he has a nice TV, does that mean that other kids will be wanting 
to watch it all the time?  They have free HD cable to the dorm rooms 
(UW-Madison).

We definitely want to run Linux (Ubuntu, preferably) and still have 
everything working properly.  He might have to run Windows in a VM, or as 
a dual-boot setup, but I'm not sure about that (he's mostly concerned that 
he hasn't been able copy music files to his iPod Touch from Ubuntu, but 
I'll try some experiments here while he's visiting).

Just thought I'd check here to see what kinds of tips and ideas you guys 
have.  It's a tricky decision because of the trade-offs with price, power, 
battery-life, features, etc.  We'd like to keep the price down to $600.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 20:23:49 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:23:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin8WQ1hFqYgyxYsJW+SgVNmbveB_du11WzVfkZ7@mail.gmail.com>

It's a little more than your $600 mark new, but
http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=100
would be pretty cool (I'll likely be getting one myself shortly).
They test and ship their machines with Ubuntu, so you know it will
work right.

I would certainly agree that a netbook would be frustrating to have as
your only machine.  It's a great secondary, but a poor primary.

As long as people are talking about the Thinkpad T-series, I'll
mention that I have a 5 year old Thinkpad T43 here that I'm looking to
unload, with both the original battery and two newer spares.  However,
it being 5 years old it has done that "taking a beating" others
mentioned, and has a bit of a worrisome quirk at the moment that may
or may not be fixable.  VGA output only as well.  Just thought I'd
throw that out there in case you or someone else is interested.

 - Tony


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Aug 11 22:51:30 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:51:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Why isn't your son satisfied with the old Dell laptop?  How old is this laptop?  What does he want in a new laptop?

Has he tried using antiX Linux or Puppy Linux on the old laptop?  You haven't told us anything about the hardware specs.

Although several other people have suggested a used laptop, I'm not sure that's such a great value.  Laptops depreciate much more slowly than desktops but are subject to more wear and tear and have a battery that costs a lot of money to replace.  Compare the prices of the used laptops with the prices of new laptops.  At least you know that a new laptop has no prior wear and tear and has a brand new battery.  I was considering buying a used laptop 4 years ago but ended up buying a new one because the used ones weren't really cheaper unless they were very old.

I like the idea of running Windows in Virtualbox better than dual booting.  (I haven't gotten around to trying this myself, though.)  If the Windows installation gets messed up, your son can just create a new virtual machine without having to tie up the whole computer with a Windows reinstallation.

-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 15:27:37 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:27:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:

> Why isn't your son satisfied with the old Dell laptop?  How old is this 
> laptop?  What does he want in a new laptop?

It is from about 2003.  He says that he has trouble watching internet 
videos.  He says that it doesn't hibernate when he closes the case.

Well, I didn't know about the internet video problem and I haven't tried 
to fix it.  I think I couldn't get the hibernation to work and told him 
he'd have to do it by hand before shutting the case.

We can't get over the fact that it is slower than a newer computer.


> Has he tried using antiX Linux or Puppy Linux on the old laptop?  You 
> haven't told us anything about the hardware specs.

Haven't tried them.  I have noticed that you are an advocate.


> I like the idea of running Windows in Virtualbox better than dual 
> booting.  (I haven't gotten around to trying this myself, though.)

It would be easy to buy a machine with Windows on it, then add Ubuntu as 
the second OS.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 15:28:35 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:28:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook for
 college student?")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121527480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

The sales guys at MicroCenter were pushing a Gateway laptop, partly 
because it has an i5 processor, instead of a Dell with an i3.  The prices 
are the same, as are most of the specs.

My son is reading some reviews and it sounds like the i5 is somewhat 
faster but it actually gets better battery life.  So I guess the i5 is a 
better choice than i3.  Right?

On the other hand, I'm not hearing many recommendations for Gateway.  If 
anything, people (other than sales people at MicroCenter) have been trying 
to steer me away from Gateway.  Is Gateway really to be avoided?  What 
about Linux on Gateway.  Right now I'm thinking the Gateway might be the 
best choice, for $599 at MicroCenter.  This is it:

http://www.amazon.com/Gateway-NV5929u-Notebook-i5-430m-battery/dp/B0036FFH4A
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0336321

Strangely, the Amazon reviews say that it plays Blu-ray, but I doubt it. I 
wonder if Ubuntu can do the graphics/sound easily.  I don't know if it is 
Linux-friendly -- not finding info via Google.

Any opinions on this?

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Aug 12 16:47:13 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:47:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook	for
	college student?")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121527480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121527480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> The sales guys at MicroCenter were pushing a Gateway laptop, partly 
> because it has an i5 processor, instead of a Dell with an i3.  The prices 
> are the same, as are most of the specs.
> 
> My son is reading some reviews and it sounds like the i5 is somewhat 
> faster but it actually gets better battery life.  So I guess the i5 is a 
> better choice than i3.  Right?
> 
> On the other hand, I'm not hearing many recommendations for Gateway.  If 
> anything, people (other than sales people at MicroCenter) have been trying 
> to steer me away from Gateway.  Is Gateway really to be avoided?  What 
> about Linux on Gateway.  Right now I'm thinking the Gateway might be the 
> best choice, for $599 at MicroCenter.  This is it:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Gateway-NV5929u-Notebook-i5-430m-battery/dp/B0036FFH4A
> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0336321
> 
> Strangely, the Amazon reviews say that it plays Blu-ray, but I doubt it. I 
> wonder if Ubuntu can do the graphics/sound easily.  I don't know if it is 
> Linux-friendly -- not finding info via Google.
> 
> Any opinions on this?

Stay away from Gateway.  They used to be decent ten years ago, but
they were bought, sold, went in and out of bankruptcy.  I don't
believe they have much of an engineering staff left - they are
probably just tossing some components and glue into a case and
shacking instead of stirring it.

If it's for college, get a business line machine, even if it's more
expensive.  It will resist wear and tear easier, and it will be
smaller and lighter than the consumer-grade model, for similar specs.

I got my wife a Thinkpad X61s three years ago and it's going strong
(with the additions of 4 GB of RAM and a Intel 80GB SSD).  It survived
a 4 feet drop from the desk to the carpet - the HDD was spinning and
started making funny noises, but I managed to get all the data off it
before and it's still running.

You can buy a solid machine and get 5 years out of it, or you can
spend 75% now and 75% in three years to replace or fix it.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 12 16:58:57 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:58:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good
 notebook	for	college student?")
In-Reply-To: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121527480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <E7A018BD-ABD7-4724-9C8B-FECBCEF0BA5B@me.com>

On Aug 12, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Florin Iucha wrote:

> <snip>
> You can buy a solid machine and get 5 years out of it, or you can
> spend 75% now and 75% in three years to replace or fix it.
> 
> Cheers,
> florin

Agreed. I retired my Dell PowerEdge servers that were personal desktops and FreeBSD machines two years ago after three solid years of my ownership, and they were built in 2002 and 2003.

I built two very nice, well spec'd custom machines that are still running well after two years. I also purchased a MacBook Pro that despite the abuse I put it through runs like a champ day in and day out, in July last year.

You get what you pay for. A good computer should be considered like this: If the "cheap" model is $500 you'll be looking at $325 per year of ownership. Most machines don't make it past that 18-24 month range (I know some do but most don't).

If you are looking at a $600 laptop for a few years and it could give out and you'll care, consider spending twice that for something of quality. Dell laptops, for example: The home user models are plastic. The business models are (nearly) all aluminum. My mother has a plastic dell. She rarely travels with it. My father, at my insistence, purchased a Lattitude and he's a little bit of a clutz from time to time and it has had two service calls on it but it is in better condition after 18 months than an Inspiron would have been in his hands. 

It's psychological, too, but the more you spend on a device, the better you tend to treat it. But that's because of our waste society, I fear.

--
Ryan


From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 12 17:03:56 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:03:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good
	notebook	forcollege student?")
In-Reply-To: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:47 PM
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > The sales guys at MicroCenter were pushing a Gateway laptop....

> Any opinions on this?

...


If it's for college, get a business line machine, even if it's more
expensive.  It will resist wear and tear easier, and it will be
smaller and lighter than the consumer-grade model, for similar specs.

Well said!

...

You can buy a solid machine and get 5 years out of it, or you can
spend 75% now and 75% in three years to replace or fix it.

Great advice!

Sorry about a "ditto post", but Florin said it so well he deserved a cheer
:-)


Chuck



From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:14:31 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:14:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook
 forcollege student?")
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiniVkbRvEMsMmLS7pNDh9goYLrkze1n-PudfXJw@mail.gmail.com>

Three thoughts here:

1) Florin is the man.  /agree 100% with everything he said regarding
business class leading to durability leading to longevity.
2) My average life-cycles for Mac OS-based machines is 5-7 years.  For
Windows-based machines, 3-4 years.
3) I don't buy laptops to meet my current requirements.  I buy them to
destroy my performance requirements by a factor of 2x - especially if they
are windows-based.  While the cost is higher, the enhanced performance
envelope dampens the seemingly inevitable performance degradation of
"windows over time".  I realize that's somewhat subjective, but that's what
it feels like...

-Rob
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Aug 13 06:06:08 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:06:08 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook
	forcollege student?")
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiniVkbRvEMsMmLS7pNDh9goYLrkze1n-PudfXJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org><KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net><AANLkTiniVkbRvEMsMmLS7pNDh9goYLrkze1n-PudfXJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1301203197-1281697600-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1233349299-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Flip side to the buy fast/powerful is that if you don't truly need the absolute full speed and capabilities then get a cheaper model and when it dies out due to wear and tear or it becomes too slow for the work in a couple of years then get another one of the same price range which will be a lot more powerful then the one you buy today. Then you can keep an extra few bucks in your pocket or use for something else.  Just food for thought and not necessarily an endorsement of this line of reasoning.

You can also check a local vendor like Equus (equuscs.com) though I am not sure if they generally sell to individual end users much, might be worth a quick check. The appeal of buying local is strong for some people.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:14:31 
To: TCLUG Mailing List<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook forcollege student?")

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 10:02:48 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:02:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook
 forcollege student?")
In-Reply-To: <1301203197-1281697600-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1233349299-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTiniVkbRvEMsMmLS7pNDh9goYLrkze1n-PudfXJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301203197-1281697600-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1233349299-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinfDuYj5gEi1AELQYgPABM8BromwPeUSmtWM331@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 6:06 AM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> Flip side to the buy fast/powerful is that if you don't truly need the
> absolute full speed and capabilities then get a cheaper model and when it
> dies out due to wear and tear or it becomes too slow for the work in a
> couple of years then get another one of the same price range which will be a
> lot more powerful then the one you buy today. Then you can keep an extra few
> bucks in your pocket or use for something else.  Just food for thought and
> not necessarily an endorsement of this line of reasoning.
>

The reason I personally don't do that is to forestall the migration-tax.
That is to say, to delay incurring the overhead of moving data,
re-installing app, transferring licenses if necessary, recreating my
development environment, etc...   In short, set me = lazy. :)  I'm not
disagreeing here - just explaining part of my motivations.

-Rob
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 10:25:25 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:25:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] college laptop
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Yro=btEPU=ZTfNToOyiyg2vcfMWw1dJLnK0SJ@mail.gmail.com>

*Well HP is at the top of the heap for pc's right now.**These are standard
at my college. This is a little newer model .**HP EliteBook* 8440
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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Aug 13 10:44:54 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C656876.2020100@Goecke-Dolan.com>


Jason,

Yes I do need a speaker for the August 21 Penguins Unbound Meeting. Are 
you still willing to come and talk ?

Thanks.

==>brian.

Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.
> 



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 10:56:00 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:56:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] college laptop
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Yro=btEPU=ZTfNToOyiyg2vcfMWw1dJLnK0SJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Yro=btEPU=ZTfNToOyiyg2vcfMWw1dJLnK0SJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131055090.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, r j wrote:

> *Well HP is at the top of the heap for pc's right now.**These are standard
> at my college. This is a little newer model .**HP EliteBook* 8440


Looks like the 8440p (wasn't finding much without the "p") costs more than 
$1000, which is a little out of our range.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 11:27:20 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:27:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
>
>> Why isn't your son satisfied with the old Dell laptop?  How old is this 
>> laptop?  What does he want in a new laptop?
>
> It is from about 2003.  He says that he has trouble watching internet 
> videos. He says that it doesn't hibernate when he closes the case.
>
> Well, I didn't know about the internet video problem and I haven't tried 
> to fix it.  I think I couldn't get the hibernation to work and told him 
> he'd have to do it by hand before shutting the case.
>
> We can't get over the fact that it is slower than a newer computer.

This (excellent) video is choppy when he runs it in Firefox at full 720p 
resolution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA

It isn't because of the network -- the video is choppy (but not the audio) 
even when it is fully downloaded.

Regarding hibernation:  The problem is that it doesn't come back up.  We 
get a black screen.  I found that we could sometimes recover using 
something like Alt-F1, Alt-F7, but this does not always work.  Any ideas?


>> Has he tried using antiX Linux or Puppy Linux on the old laptop?  You 
>> haven't told us anything about the hardware specs.
>
> Haven't tried them.  I have noticed that you are an advocate.

This is a Dell Latitude D800 with 1 GB RAM.  Do you think one of those 
mini-Linuxes will make it do better with YouTube videos in Firefox than it 
is now doing with Ubuntu 10.04?  I should also try Chrome.


>> I like the idea of running Windows in Virtualbox better than dual 
>> booting. (I haven't gotten around to trying this myself, though.)
>
> It would be easy to buy a machine with Windows on it, then add Ubuntu as 
> the second OS.

Regarding this, I suppose it is possible to have Ubuntu and Win7 as dual 
boot and still run XP, say, in VirtualBox.  I might actually do that.

Mike


From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Fri Aug 13 12:49:50 2010
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:49:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] college laptop
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131055090.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=Yro=btEPU=ZTfNToOyiyg2vcfMWw1dJLnK0SJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131055090.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <725dabf2a59325e655e6d2d1a5677867.squirrel@flyballdogs.com>


Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, r j wrote:
>
>> *Well HP is at the top of the heap for pc's right now.**These are
>> standard
>> at my college. This is a little newer model .**HP EliteBook* 8440
>
>
> Looks like the 8440p (wasn't finding much without the "p") costs more than
> $1000, which is a little out of our range.

I bought my son an HP DV-4 for college and he's happy with it.  For a
relatively inexpensive laptop it had a good ratio between screen size and
overall size of the laptop.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/HP+-+Pavilion+Laptop+with+AMD+Turion%26%23153%3B+II+Dual-Core+Processor+-+White/9705406.p?id=1218154377090&skuId=9705406

-- 
Kathryn
http://womensfooty.com
National Team Donation - http://womensfooty.com/freedom/donate


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Fri Aug 13 13:19:20 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:19:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Do we still need a speaker for Aug. 21st?
In-Reply-To: <4C656876.2020100@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <20100801225918.c5da9220.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C656876.2020100@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <20100813131920.f2fec70a.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Yes, I'll be there and give my presentation on lightweight Linux distros.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:44:54 -0500
Brian Dolan-Goecke <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:

> 
> Jason,
> 
> Yes I do need a speaker for the August 21 Penguins Unbound Meeting. Are 
> you still willing to come and talk ?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ==>brian.
> 
> Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> > If we still need a speaker, I could give a presentation on lightweight Linux distros.  I'll need the projector and an Internet connection.  I can show how various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB of RAM.  I'll demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other distros.
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Fri Aug 13 14:11:13 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:11:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:27:20 -0500 (CDT)
Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> Has he tried using antiX Linux or Puppy Linux on the old laptop?  You 
> >> haven't told us anything about the hardware specs.
> >
> > Haven't tried them.  I have noticed that you are an advocate.
> 
> This is a Dell Latitude D800 with 1 GB RAM.  Do you think one of those 
> mini-Linuxes will make it do better with YouTube videos in Firefox than it 
> is now doing with Ubuntu 10.04?  I should also try Chrome.
> 
Given that 1 GB of RAM is plenty for Ubuntu, antiX Linux and Puppy Linux will FLY like a rocket on the same 1 GB of RAM.  That said, I'm not sure if that will resolve the problem of choppy Youtube videos.  On my 10-year-old Dell desktop with a 467 MHz processor and 384 MB of RAM, Youtube videos at 360p are choppy unless I download them first and view them offline.  (This is the case with any distro.)  However, I don't have choppy 360p videos on my 9-year-old IBM NetVista desktop with a 1 GB processor and 256 MB of RAM.  (This is the case with any distro.)
> 
> Regarding this, I suppose it is possible to have Ubuntu and Win7 as dual 
> boot and still run XP, say, in VirtualBox.  I might actually do that.
> 
In my opinion, it would be better to run Win7 and XP in virtual machines.  The inevitable reinstallation can run in Virtualbox while the computer is still free for other tasks.  As we all know, you cannot install any Windows OS in 10-15 minutes like you can with antiX Linux.


-- 
Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 15:31:59 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:31:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131417460.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

We ended up choosing something at MicroCenter.  It might not be the best 
choice, but there are so many things to consider and so little time.

One interesting phenomenon was that for any brand, there seem to be both 
strong advocates and ardent detractors.  This is probably most true for 
the biggest brands like HP and Dell.  It's hard to know what some of the 
advice is telling us.  For example, how can it be that one person has 
great luck with every one of a long series of Dells and another person has 
seven in a row that fail miserably within a few months?  I don't know. 
Are their memories/reports accurate?

I'm pretty sure that the laptop is always a crapshoot and even the most 
reliable manufacturer has a pretty high failure rate (maybe 15%), so that 
probably explains some of the divergent opinions.

I liked the idea of buying a ThinkPad, fixing it up a bit, etc. 
Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time for doing that work, both 
because of other things we want to do and because he's moving to Madison 
for school on August 25.

I ended up buying a Gateway NV5929u for $600 + tax at MicroCenter.  It had 
most of the features we wanted at a price my son could afford.  I wasn't 
sure of how Ubuntu would work on this machine.  I installed 10.04 (Lucid) 
as a second OS beside Win7.  So far, so good.  Everything seems to be 
working in Ubuntu.  I can hibernate either Win7 or Ubuntu or both and then 
choose which to return to, and it works consistently.  Sound is also 
working.  One reason I chose the Gateway was that someone (maybe on this 
list) told me that Gateway and Acer were the same inside.  I think Acer 
works well with Linux, usually, so that made me think Gateway would work 
too, and I guess I was right because it was as easy an install as I've 
ever experienced with any OS (which is surprising given that it was a 
dual-boot laptop installation).

The wireless is super-fast: Using http://speakeasy.net/speedtest to 
Chicago with my new Qwest VDSL2 system and their wireless router/modem 
($30/mo right now) and wifi 802.11n, I was getting 34.78 Mbps down and 
15.03 Mbps up, which is kinda mind-blowing.  That's just Ubuntu 10.04 
installation with no tweaking at all -- it just worked.  With the ethernet 
wire, I was getting 4627 KB/s downloads according to Ubuntu's update 
manager, which isn't far from the 40 Mbps I was promised by Qwest.  So I'm 
pretty happy with Qwest, so far.

The thing I worry about with the Gateway is that it might not be very 
rugged.  My son will have to be careful with it, but that isn't always 
easy for a college freshman living in the dorms.

The salesman at MicroCenter told us that for $159 we could have extra 
coverage for 3 years so that if the computer failed, they would have 
someone come to his dorm to pick it up and fix it.  I read the contract 
and it said no such thing, as far as I could so, so I didn't buy it (it 
said that they'd pay for shipping, but I saw nothing about someone picking 
it up).

Mike


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 16:19:26 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:19:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131417460.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131417460.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=vde7n2972uQ4XpWMHXOrKOagxexz=jXscvcAS@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I liked the idea of buying a ThinkPad, fixing it up a bit, etc.
> Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time for doing that work, both
> because of other things we want to do and because he's moving to Madison
> for school on August 25.

He should check out the Madison LUG (http://www.madisonlinux.org/) and
Ubuntu Wisconsin LoCo (http://ubuntu-wisconsin.org/).


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 17:02:26 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:02:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Has he tried using antiX Linux or Puppy Linux on the old laptop? 
>>>> You haven't told us anything about the hardware specs.
>>>
>>> Haven't tried them.  I have noticed that you are an advocate.
>>
>> This is a Dell Latitude D800 with 1 GB RAM.  Do you think one of those 
>> mini-Linuxes will make it do better with YouTube videos in Firefox than 
>> it is now doing with Ubuntu 10.04?  I should also try Chrome.
>>
> Given that 1 GB of RAM is plenty for Ubuntu, antiX Linux and Puppy Linux 
> will FLY like a rocket on the same 1 GB of RAM.  That said, I'm not sure 
> if that will resolve the problem of choppy Youtube videos.  On my 
> 10-year-old Dell desktop with a 467 MHz processor and 384 MB of RAM, 
> Youtube videos at 360p are choppy unless I download them first and view 
> them offline.  (This is the case with any distro.)  However, I don't 
> have choppy 360p videos on my 9-year-old IBM NetVista desktop with a 1 
> GB processor and 256 MB of RAM.  (This is the case with any distro.)

The 360 version of "Nature by Numbers" runs smoothly, but the 720p version 
is choppy.  I don't think running offline would change that, but I'll be 
studying this further because I am taking that old Dell laptop off his 
hands (it has three new batteries).


>> Regarding this, I suppose it is possible to have Ubuntu and Win7 as 
>> dual boot and still run XP, say, in VirtualBox.  I might actually do 
>> that.
>
> In my opinion, it would be better to run Win7 and XP in virtual 
> machines.  The inevitable reinstallation can run in Virtualbox while the 
> computer is still free for other tasks.  As we all know, you cannot 
> install any Windows OS in 10-15 minutes like you can with antiX Linux.

Here's a problem:  They didn't give us the installation disks for Win7. 
They didn't give us any disks at all.  I had to use the DVD imaging 
feature to back up the OS to DVDs and create a 4th DVD for recovery.  It 
is good that I did those things, because I managed to completely hose Win7 
immediately after I saved the image.  All I did was turn off the computer 
while Win7 was starting to load.  That was enough to damage it so severely 
that it had to go to the DVDs and reimage the drive.  That is quite bad. 
It should not be that sensitive.

Anyway, I might install XP in VirtualBox.  We have XP disks.  Maybe I can 
get Win7 disks.  I don't know.

Another thing -- the Win7 installation is a massive advertisement.  It 
makes me feel kind of ill looking at it.  The other horrible thing about 
Win7 is that a window can pop up that you can't get rid of.  One from 
Norton (obviously a Microsoft partner) asks for your email address, but 
the X button in the upper right corner of the window is disabled, as is 
the "Close" option in the drop-down window menu, so you have to click 
"Next" inside the window to get anywhere.  In the end, after about three 
screens, it let me kill the window without taking my email address, but 
that was just amazing -- what a-holes!

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 17:09:09 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:09:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=vde7n2972uQ4XpWMHXOrKOagxexz=jXscvcAS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131417460.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=vde7n2972uQ4XpWMHXOrKOagxexz=jXscvcAS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131702570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Tony Yarusso wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I liked the idea of buying a ThinkPad, fixing it up a bit, etc. 
>> Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time for doing that work, both 
>> because of other things we want to do and because he's moving to 
>> Madison for school on August 25.
>
> He should check out the Madison LUG (http://www.madisonlinux.org/) and
> Ubuntu Wisconsin LoCo (http://ubuntu-wisconsin.org/).


Thanks, Tony.  Great idea.  It looks like their meeting place is a 3-mile 
bike ride from his dorm, which is easy in good weather.

Mike


From tclug at jfoo.org  Fri Aug 13 17:51:50 2010
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:51:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>

Mike Miller wrote:

> Here's a problem:  They didn't give us the installation disks for Win7. 
> They didn't give us any disks at all.

There's probably a utility for creating the backup disks.

j


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 13 18:07:33 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:07:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <971FB668-0B5E-4098-B6F6-B49739544A63@me.com>

Or even a boot recovery partition in the POST screen to choose boot sources and select a recovery partition.


On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:51 PM, John Gateley wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
> 
>> Here's a problem:  They didn't give us the installation disks for Win7. 
>> They didn't give us any disks at all.
> 
> There's probably a utility for creating the backup disks.
> 
> j
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 13 20:51:41 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:51:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
Message-ID: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>

Can anyone give me any reasons to buy these over 7200RPMs for a RAID? I may need to pinch pennies if I have to finance my next servers out of pocket. Stupid idea, I know, but I really want to know if there's a reason to skimp.

--
Ryan



From dean at ripperd.com  Fri Aug 13 21:52:52 2010
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean E)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:52:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
Message-ID: <4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>

  On 8/13/2010 8:51 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> Can anyone give me any reasons to buy these over 7200RPMs for a RAID? I may need to pinch pennies if I have to finance my next servers out of pocket. Stupid idea, I know, but I really want to know if there's a reason to skimp.
>
> --
> Ryan
>
>
Lower power consumption if you don't need the performance.

I built a 2x1.5tb mirror of WD "AV low power" drives. That combined with 
the intel d510 board an entire server only consumes ~36 watts at idle. 
We have another nearly identical setup at work that consumes 26watts 
with a properly sized, more efficient PSU.

Unfortunately smartd is emailing me that one is failing the smart self 
test. They are only about a month old :-(
Read your reviews carefully, some of the "green" 5900rpm drives have a 
high failure rate! I tried to pick the one with the best reviews and 
still seems I may have gotten a bad one.

apollo dean # smartctl -a /dev/sda
smartctl version 5.38 [i686-pc-linux-gnu] Copyright (C) 2002-8 Bruce Allen
Home page is http://smartmontools.sourceforge.net/

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     WDC WD15EVDS-63V9B0
Serial Number:    WD-WMAVxxxxxxx
Firmware Version: 01.00A01
User Capacity:    1,500,301,910,016 bytes
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]
ATA Version is:   8
ATA Standard is:  Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated
Local Time is:    Fri Aug 13 21:48:06 2010 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: PASSED

General SMART Values:
Offline data collection status:  (0x84) Offline data collection activity
                                         was suspended by an 
interrupting command from host.
                                         Auto Offline Data Collection: 
Enabled.
Self-test execution status:      ( 121) The previous self-test completed 
having
                                         the read element of the test 
failed.
Total time to complete Offline
data collection:                 (35580) seconds.

SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      
UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
   1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  
Always       -       0
   3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0027   183   182   021    Pre-fail  
Always       -       5841
   4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   
Always       -       27
   5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail  
Always       -       0
   7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   
Always       -       0
   9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   099   099   000    Old_age   
Always       -       1375
  10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   
Always       -       0
  11 Calibration_Retry_Count 0x0032   100   253   000    Old_age   
Always       -       0
  12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   
Always       -       26
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   
Always       -       15
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   156   156   000    Old_age   
Always       -       133918
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   120   110   000    Old_age   
Always       -       30
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   
Always       -       0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   
Always       -       1
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0030   200   200   000    Old_age   
Offline      -       1
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age   
Always       -       0
200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate   0x0008   200   200   000    Old_age   
Offline      -       0

SMART Self-test log structure revision number 1
Num  Test_Description    Status                  Remaining  
LifeTime(hours)  LBA_of_first_error
# 1  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       90%      
1238         1101009908
# 2  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       90%      
1070         1101009908
# 3  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       70%       
905         1101009908
# 4  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       70%       
737         1101009908
# 5  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       70%       
569         1101009908
# 6  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       90%       
400         1101009908
# 7  Short offline       Completed: read failure       90%       
351         1101009908
# 8  Short offline       Completed: read failure       90%       
128         1101009908
# 9  Extended offline    Completed: read failure       90%       
122         1101009908


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 02:29:03 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 02:29:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008140227200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, John Gateley wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Here's a problem:  They didn't give us the installation disks for Win7.
>> They didn't give us any disks at all.
>
> There's probably a utility for creating the backup disks.


That's right -- I got to that later in the message.  It makes a recovery 
disk and image disks.  When I hosed it, I had to use them.  It's there way 
of protecting their advertisements, I think.  A recovered system still has 
the ads.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Sat Aug 14 08:54:44 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:54:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
Message-ID: <20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 09:52:52PM -0500, Dean E wrote:
> Unfortunately smartd is emailing me that one is failing the smart self 
> test. They are only about a month old :-(
> Read your reviews carefully, some of the "green" 5900rpm drives have a 
> high failure rate! I tried to pick the one with the best reviews and 
> still seems I may have gotten a bad one.

I built my file server with three WDC "Green Power" 750GB in RAID5 and
it performs adequately.  I am mainly storing my own documents,
articles and books in PDF, my MP3 collection and the raw digital
photos (25MB each).

After two years of 24/7 service, one of the hard drives died.  It took
WD three weeks to scrounge a replacement so in the mean time I replaced
the failing drive with a low-power Samsung.

Taking into account the huge capacities (chances of failure and effects
of failure are increasing) and low prices (chances of failure
increasing), every computer that I will build from now on will have RAID
(1 for workstations and 6 for servers) and with hard drives from different
manufacturers.  Also, for the servers and workstations ECC is a must.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From kcbnac at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 11:15:05 2010
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:15:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Intel processors: i5 v. i3 (was "good notebook
 forcollege student?")
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinfDuYj5gEi1AELQYgPABM8BromwPeUSmtWM331@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100812214713.GD8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEGNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTiniVkbRvEMsMmLS7pNDh9goYLrkze1n-PudfXJw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1301203197-1281697600-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1233349299-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTinfDuYj5gEi1AELQYgPABM8BromwPeUSmtWM331@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKBZiQNi79bAShF4M_uKadBfpjsp8TnWaXNO6z@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a new Lenovo Thinkpad Edge on the way (14" AMD-based model)
they retail for about your price range - the Edge series is the first
to start moving a bit away from the 'Thinkpad design' - they mixed in
a few consumer things - keys changed, the frame isn't totally there,
but its still a Thinkpad from the reviews I've read.

I'll buy almost anything from a company that makes business models -
HP/Compaq, Dell, Lenovo - I can get a repair manual and spare parts
from either my distributors, ebay, or direct.  Toshiba, Sony?  I can't
even get a repair manual.  (Ended up finding some for two Sonys to
replace HDs on a Russian site - took some finagling to find those - 27
screws to get to the HDs!)

So yeah, go cheap and expect to replace it, or pay a bit more for a
solid case design and have it last - Lenovo's got some deals on
Thinkpads almost all the time.  Heck, they even have a netbook model
in the Thinkpad series!

If you DO look at thinkpads - http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki
is the Thinkpad-oriented wiki for most things there.  They don't have
my model up yet, but I'm not terribly concerned - its an AMD/ATI CPU,
Chipset, and GPU.  I'll get it working :-D


From kcbnac at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 11:24:15 2010
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:24:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008140227200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008111249242.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100811225130.bc264dbe.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008121523570.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131057050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100813141113.598cbd70.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008131532540.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C65CC86.1070208@jfoo.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008140227200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWoK++EXGx-ESEPGS1_MO9NdhM2L_Ox=goWXum@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone DOES ever hose a box completely, anyone with Microsoft's
TechNet access can get a Windows 7 DVD installer - which you can
easily put onto a Flash drive.  (That's my preferred method) - I found
a little utility to remove each disk from booting for only a certain
version of Windows 7 too, so it prompts for which 'Edition' to
install.  Have 32 and 64-bit ISO's for both, you'll need a product key
to go with it.  (You get 30 days to put it in if you don't have it
immediately)

Then you'll just need to dig out drivers for whatever Windows doesn't detect.


From auditodd at comcast.net  Sat Aug 14 21:27:39 2010
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 02:27:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008140227200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <798938776.1429036.1281839259090.JavaMail.root@sz0147a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I'll echo another poster...

I have the 'official' Windows 7 ISO with the 'tweak' that allows you to choose your version of the installation (home vs. pro).
There are two versions, 32 or 64 bit.

You need to provide your own key and a DVD and I would be happy to burn you a copy.

I spent a good 3 hours removing all the HP crap from my dm3 and keep saying I need to just rebuild it from scratch, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

----------
Todd Young

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 2:29:03 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, John Gateley wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Here's a problem:  They didn't give us the installation disks for Win7.
>> They didn't give us any disks at all.
>
> There's probably a utility for creating the backup disks.


That's right -- I got to that later in the message.  It makes a recovery 
disk and image disks.  When I hosed it, I had to use them.  It's there way 
of protecting their advertisements, I think.  A recovered system still has 
the ads.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nesius at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:07:56 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:07:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>

Don't think I'd ever mix drive manufacturer's in any RAID configuration,
myself.  That seems to go against the grain.  But maybe my notions on that
point are out-dated.  Anyone else have opinions on that?

-Rob


On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 09:52:52PM -0500, Dean E wrote:
> > Unfortunately smartd is emailing me that one is failing the smart self
> > test. They are only about a month old :-(
> > Read your reviews carefully, some of the "green" 5900rpm drives have a
> > high failure rate! I tried to pick the one with the best reviews and
> > still seems I may have gotten a bad one.
>
> I built my file server with three WDC "Green Power" 750GB in RAID5 and
> it performs adequately.  I am mainly storing my own documents,
> articles and books in PDF, my MP3 collection and the raw digital
> photos (25MB each).
>
> After two years of 24/7 service, one of the hard drives died.  It took
> WD three weeks to scrounge a replacement so in the mean time I replaced
> the failing drive with a low-power Samsung.
>
> Taking into account the huge capacities (chances of failure and effects
> of failure are increasing) and low prices (chances of failure
> increasing), every computer that I will build from now on will have RAID
> (1 for workstations and 6 for servers) and with hard drives from different
> manufacturers.  Also, for the servers and workstations ECC is a must.
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 00:36:18 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 00:36:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> Don't think I'd ever mix drive manufacturer's in any RAID configuration, 
> myself.  That seems to go against the grain.  But maybe my notions on 
> that point are out-dated.  Anyone else have opinions on that?

Someone once told me that he thought it was better to mix them because it 
would be less likely that several would fail at nearly the same time. 
That makes sense.  What would be the problem with mixing?  In what sense 
does that go against the grain?

Mike


From jeremy at jskier.com  Sun Aug 15 07:03:50 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 07:03:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTineh=JP5DGQ_R0EdpvcjCU0DWhTsxGcX06A9yHq@mail.gmail.com>

Arguably the problem is they will have differing performance albeit
the same specs. Does this matter in the grand scheme of things for
most RAID environments? I wouldn't think so. I've seen RAID1 setups
failing at the same time with the same drives installed- problem is if
you buy from the same place you're pulling from the same batch, at
minimal one should mix it up to some extent.

Jeremy MountainJohnson
jeremy at jskier.com



On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:36 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:
>
> > Don't think I'd ever mix drive manufacturer's in any RAID configuration,
> > myself. ?That seems to go against the grain. ?But maybe my notions on
> > that point are out-dated. ?Anyone else have opinions on that?
>
> Someone once told me that he thought it was better to mix them because it
> would be less likely that several would fail at nearly the same time.
> That makes sense. ?What would be the problem with mixing? ?In what sense
> does that go against the grain?
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 14:26:06 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:26:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTineh=JP5DGQ_R0EdpvcjCU0DWhTsxGcX06A9yHq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTineh=JP5DGQ_R0EdpvcjCU0DWhTsxGcX06A9yHq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin=TMxRSPmgwwOf-+xJAUMQLJ9Hb9jd0Z2XK6BB@mail.gmail.com>

Different performance profiles even though they may support the same specs,
and also the fact that even drives of the same size may not necessarily have
the same physical geometries or other physical characteristics.  e.g.,
different cache sizes - on a mirrored drive maybe one drive has to do a
cache flush while another one doesn't, thus causing the write to take longer
simply because one drive could absorb the write without going to the
platters while the other couldn't.  That's assuming you didn't match cache
sizes, which most people likely would have the sense to not do even if they
were mixing/matching drives/vendors.

My experience in large-enterprise installs is that everyone uses the same
drives within their arrays and disk cabinets.  We didn't experience massive
simultaneous failures, and the detection/replacement of failed drives was
just part of the service contract for the hardware.  Originally we would
replace failed drives and rebuild arrays ourselves, but over the past eight
years the vendors took that over.

Lastly, diversifying drive as a risk-mitigation strategy can have the
opposite effect - one of the mix-in products may be far worse than the
others.

-Rob


On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy at jskier.com>wrote:

> Arguably the problem is they will have differing performance albeit
> the same specs. Does this matter in the grand scheme of things for
> most RAID environments? I wouldn't think so. I've seen RAID1 setups
> failing at the same time with the same drives installed- problem is if
> you buy from the same place you're pulling from the same batch, at
> minimal one should mix it up to some extent.
>
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> jeremy at jskier.com
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 12:36 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 14 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:
> >
> > > Don't think I'd ever mix drive manufacturer's in any RAID
> configuration,
> > > myself.  That seems to go against the grain.  But maybe my notions on
> > > that point are out-dated.  Anyone else have opinions on that?
> >
> > Someone once told me that he thought it was better to mix them because it
> > would be less likely that several would fail at nearly the same time.
> > That makes sense.  What would be the problem with mixing?  In what sense
> > does that go against the grain?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Aug 16 00:29:51 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:29:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin=TMxRSPmgwwOf-+xJAUMQLJ9Hb9jd0Z2XK6BB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTineh=JP5DGQ_R0EdpvcjCU0DWhTsxGcX06A9yHq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=TMxRSPmgwwOf-+xJAUMQLJ9Hb9jd0Z2XK6BB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100816052950.GL8956@iris.iucha.org>

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 02:26:06PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> Different performance profiles even though they may support the same specs,
> and also the fact that even drives of the same size may not necessarily have
> the same physical geometries or other physical characteristics.  e.g.,
> different cache sizes - on a mirrored drive maybe one drive has to do a
> cache flush while another one doesn't, thus causing the write to take longer
> simply because one drive could absorb the write without going to the
> platters while the other couldn't.

What?  If I ask "get this on the platter", it better be on a platter,
not in the cache of some smart-less drive, waiting for the power
failure.

>                                     That's assuming you didn't match cache
> sizes, which most people likely would have the sense to not do even if they
> were mixing/matching drives/vendors.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

> My experience in large-enterprise installs is that everyone uses the same
> drives within their arrays and disk cabinets.

My experience with large-scale restaurant operations is that the food
is crap.  What would happen to an admin if 3 out of the 6 drives in a
cabinet fail?  What would happen to the manager who signed the
purchase order for 12 identical drives?  Nothing -- failure has no
consequences.  (I am ignoring the 'find the tape and restore the
stuff'.  Downtime is real money, it must come from somewhere.)

>                                                We didn't experience massive
> simultaneous failures, and the detection/replacement of failed drives was
> just part of the service contract for the hardware.  Originally we would
> replace failed drives and rebuild arrays ourselves, but over the past eight
> years the vendors took that over.


> Lastly, diversifying drive as a risk-mitigation strategy can have the
> opposite effect - one of the mix-in products may be far worse than the
> others.

So you'd rather have 6 identical crappy drives, or a prayer's chance
that at least half are good?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:31:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:31:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

An 8-minute segment:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec10/cybersec_08-10.html

You can watch it or read the transcript.  What do you think?  I think we 
have a problem that we can fix, but only if we take it seriously and are 
willing to work on it.  I'm not sure that we're up to it right now.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:51:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:51:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160051220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> An 8-minute segment:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec10/cybersec_08-10.html
>
> You can watch it or read the transcript.  What do you think?  I think we 
> have a problem that we can fix, but only if we take it seriously and are 
> willing to work on it.  I'm not sure that we're up to it right now.

There are several more short segments on this topic:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/search_results.html?cx=014981141825630489824%3Afanrtw90dkk&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=cyber&x=0&y=0#1251

Mike



From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 10:58:14 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:58:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] simple configuration management
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikyzwtdpW4mhjBhExs6PFvWPknL-H6C0ghsDvuf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikyzwtdpW4mhjBhExs6PFvWPknL-H6C0ghsDvuf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Cj8MaPpFmzZeLrauFeQczdXx-UF0=2f_JevJA@mail.gmail.com>

I've just been sticking importing configuration files into a SVN repository.
When I do so I create something like /etc/svn-managed and move the
configuration file there, then put symlinks in the original locations. Makes
doing a svn co or svn ci for all the managed config files on the box a bit
easier.

Sounds a little bit simpler than what you're currently doing through.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 11:12:14 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:12:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know this)
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
This is probably something I should have learned a long time ago, but
I just never have.

I have a directory that's owned by root:adm -- that is, user root and
group adm. I have it chmod'd so any users in the .adm group can write
to it.

How do I make it so that if a user creates a new file in the
directory, the owner of the file is root and not that user?

Thanks,

Erik

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 11:14:29 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:14:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] good notebook for college student?
In-Reply-To: <798938776.1429036.1281839259090.JavaMail.root@sz0147a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008140227200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<798938776.1429036.1281839259090.JavaMail.root@sz0147a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiniZySKmHNCqdvQCjVKgtMQMPmkTUqSMkFWEguN@mail.gmail.com>

Whatever you decide on set him up with a backup system of some sort to
backup his classwork. I've been using CrashPlan (www.crashplan.com)
with a subscription to their CrashPlan Central service for a bit over
a year now and it's been a great solution. I've got my wife's laptop
and my own backing up to CrashPlan Central for offsite backup and an
old workstation running at home of on-site backup. Working great and
it's saved us data loss on a couple occasions already. CrashPlan runs
on Windows, OS X, and Linux.

It appears this isn't what you're looking for, but as a heads up for
you and anyone else who may be interested: Apple is running their back
to school sale again this year.
(http://store.apple.com/us/browse/campaigns/back_to_school?mco=MTg2OTQ5OTE)
On top of the education discount ($100-$200 off depending on the
computer) you get a free iPod 8GB Touch (after mail in rebate). On top
of that they usually have a mail-in rebate on a printer as well.

When we got my wife's MacBook two years ago we got the MacBook, free
iPod, and a nice multifunction ink jet printer. We picked a printer
that had copy/print/scan capabilities as the only way we would get
another printer was if it was free (or low cost) and did something we
couldn't do with our current laser printer. It hardly gets used for
color output, but it's been nice to have a copier, scanner, and fax
machine. The printer only cost $20 after the mail in rebate.

The Mac can run VirtualBox (or other virtualization solutions) to run
Windows or Ubutnu, and there's the Boot Camp option as well.

--
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Aug 16 11:27:08 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:27:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
 this)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>


> How do I make it so that if a user creates a new file in the
> directory, the owner of the file is root and not that user?

You do NOT want to let users create files owned by other users, 
ESPECIALLY not root.

-Yaron

--


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 11:35:37 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:35:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
	this)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>

I can see how that would be bad... I'll consider a different approach. Thanks!

-Erik

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>
>> How do I make it so that if a user creates a new file in the
>> directory, the owner of the file is root and not that user?
>
> You do NOT want to let users create files owned by other users,
> ESPECIALLY not root.
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Aug 16 11:43:30 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:43:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably
	know	this)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>

I'd just set up a user "adm" if you don't already have one and leave that password as something random instead. That way  you're at least psuedo-jailed.


On Aug 16, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> I can see how that would be bad... I'll consider a different approach. Thanks!
> 
> -Erik
> 
> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> How do I make it so that if a user creates a new file in the
>>> directory, the owner of the file is root and not that user?
>> 
>> You do NOT want to let users create files owned by other users,
>> ESPECIALLY not root.
>> 
>> -Yaron
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 11:53:59 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:53:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
	this)
In-Reply-To: <CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>

The specific reason I want to do this is for a git repository in /etc
(/etc/.git). I'd like me and the main system administrator to be able
to make commits to that repo, so we can keep track of changes on the
server.

I realized after getting Yaron's response that when using sudo to make
commits, my user.name and user.email properties are used for the
commit log (and not root's). That's a good thing -- what I want. We
want to be able to keep track of who's making what changes.

If anyone has any suggestions on a better way to do this, I'm all
ears. This is my first time doing version control on /etc. I'd be
interested in hearing what others' thoughts are.

-Erik

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> I'd just set up a user "adm" if you don't already have one and leave that password as something random instead. That way ?you're at least psuedo-jailed.
>
>
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
>> I can see how that would be bad... I'll consider a different approach. Thanks!
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do I make it so that if a user creates a new file in the
>>>> directory, the owner of the file is root and not that user?
>>>
>>> You do NOT want to let users create files owned by other users,
>>> ESPECIALLY not root.
>>>
>>> -Yaron
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> erik at ekmitchell.com
>> http://ekmitchell.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 12:11:37 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:11:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
	this)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=X6WMvTczpkA1YJp7-KDhF48ycCE6Hf7V9Q1MM@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> The specific reason I want to do this is for a git repository in /etc
> (/etc/.git). I'd like me and the main system administrator to be able
> to make commits to that repo, so we can keep track of changes on the
> server.
>
> I realized after getting Yaron's response that when using sudo to make
> commits, my user.name and user.email properties are used for the
> commit log (and not root's). That's a good thing -- what I want. We
> want to be able to keep track of who's making what changes.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions on a better way to do this, I'm all
> ears. This is my first time doing version control on /etc. I'd be
> interested in hearing what others' thoughts are.


Here's a link that might be of interest to you:
http://svk.bestpractical.com/view/HomePage

Further searching may lead you to git-specific solutions
or other product suites...

-Rob
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From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 12:30:19 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:30:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 5900 RPM drives
In-Reply-To: <20100816052950.GL8956@iris.iucha.org>
References: <C4CF3F84-FEB6-4D16-ACF0-51E4FBE7F5B1@me.com>
	<4C660504.9070803@ripperd.com>
	<20100814135444.GI8956@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTim0Bw5d_VMwP9pZuKWJ9TYCcBS11gSwRiNk8-DV@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008150034210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTineh=JP5DGQ_R0EdpvcjCU0DWhTsxGcX06A9yHq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=TMxRSPmgwwOf-+xJAUMQLJ9Hb9jd0Z2XK6BB@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100816052950.GL8956@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikGoA4YkoKeH2d3wJ1bRTf=wNs2TDfcPj8fEBz7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 02:26:06PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
>
> What?  If I ask "get this on the platter", it better be on a platter,
> not in the cache of some smart-less drive, waiting for the power
> failure.
>

I think you missed my point here. I was talking about writes, not reads,
btw.


>
> >                                     That's assuming you didn't match
> cache
> > sizes, which most people likely would have the sense to not do even if
> they
> > were mixing/matching drives/vendors.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.
>

Yep, you missed it.  But my example here is... not a big deal.  The larger
point has already been said better by someone else - drives from different
manufacturers are not guaranteed to behave precisely the same way.  That
matters more for some RAID types than others I guess.



>
> > My experience in large-enterprise installs is that everyone uses the same
> > drives within their arrays and disk cabinets.
>
> My experience with large-scale restaurant operations is that the food
> is crap.


I'm talking about large-enterprise computing.  Not restaurants.


> What would happen to an admin if 3 out of the 6 drives in a
> cabinet fail?


The cabinets I'm used to have 350+ spindles so ... probably not much.

What would happen to the manager who signed the
> purchase order for 12 identical drives?


Why should anything happen to him?


> Nothing -- failure has no
> consequences.  (I am ignoring the 'find the tape and restore the
> stuff'.  Downtime is real money, it must come from somewhere.)
>

If a drive fails in the woods and no one sees it, is data actually lost?


> > Lastly, diversifying drive as a risk-mitigation strategy can have the
> > opposite effect - one of the mix-in products may be far worse than the
> > others.
>
> So you'd rather have 6 identical crappy drives, or a prayer's chance
> that at least half are good?


I'd rather have six good drives versus a stronger assurance of 3 bad
drives.  If my quality metrics show a statistically significantly higher
failure rate for the brand I'm using, I'll try a different one.

Btw, let's say you have 10,000 spindles going... are you going to make sure
every cabinet, every drawer, and every array is going to have the same
mix/distribution of drives from different vendors?

But even talking about just apples (a raid array with six drives) versus
oranges (10,000 spindles) I'd still be inclined to keep the hardware the
same as much as possible.  But maybe in a domain with that few spindles it
makes sense to diversify.  The thought had never crossed my mind before -
that's why I asked what people thought.

-Rob
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From jolexa at jolexa.net  Mon Aug 16 12:53:04 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:53:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
 this)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:53:59 -0500, Erik Mitchell
<erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> The specific reason I want to do this is for a git repository in /etc
> (/etc/.git). I'd like me and the main system administrator to be able
> to make commits to that repo, so we can keep track of changes on the
> server.
> 
> I realized after getting Yaron's response that when using sudo to make
> commits, my user.name and user.email properties are used for the
> commit log (and not root's). That's a good thing -- what I want. We
> want to be able to keep track of who's making what changes.

So, no problem anymore, right? Since you are not pushing this repo
anywhere you can easily re-write commit messages and whatnot so I
wouldn't be too worried right now. Keep experimenting. :)
 
> If anyone has any suggestions on a better way to do this, I'm all
> ears. This is my first time doing version control on /etc. I'd be
> interested in hearing what others' thoughts are.

That is actually a good way to do it. I've been keeping my /etc in git
for quite awhile now. I just want to emphasize to you that this is a
"change management system" not a "backup solution" (but it is easy to do
an "off-site backup" with git, git clone <host>:/etc)

-Jeremy


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 13:05:49 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:05:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
	this)
In-Reply-To: <c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
	<c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com>

>
> So, no problem anymore, right? Since you are not pushing this repo
> anywhere you can easily re-write commit messages and whatnot so I
> wouldn't be too worried right now. Keep experimenting. :)

Correct. No problems since the git log is showing the user calling
"sudo git commit" and not root as the one making each commit.


>
> That is actually a good way to do it. I've been keeping my /etc in git
> for quite awhile now. I just want to emphasize to you that this is a
> "change management system" not a "backup solution" (but it is easy to do
> an "off-site backup" with git, git clone <host>:/etc)

That's exactly what we're using it for (change mgmt, not backups).
Thanks for the affirmation.

-Erik


-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 13:28:07 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
 this)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
	<c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>
	<AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I have a highly-related question...

Every user on the system is in his own group, so files for user "bob" are 
created by default with owner "bob" and group "bob".  Most users are also 
in a group called "staff".  I want to make a shared space for the staff 
group where every file and subdirectory created within our staff directory 
always has the group "staff" (recursively for the whole tree).  This will 
be our shared space.  How can I do that?

The system where I'm most interested in doing this now is a CentOS system, 
but I want to be able to do it on Ubuntu or any other Linux system.

By the way, I really don't like this new scheme where every user has his 
own group.  I know that it helps to keep things private, but I'm working 
on a system where I want more sharing and less privacy.  I suppose it 
protects us a little bit from rare mistakes, but it gets in the way all 
the time.  The people managing the system think we can have this shared 
space, as described above, but so far we don't have it.

Mike


From jolexa at jolexa.net  Mon Aug 16 13:44:24 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:44:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
 this)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>
	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>
	<c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>
	<AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <d4999c8f0bfeb3fca92c1bc8ac69418d@localhost>

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT), Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a highly-related question...
> 
> Every user on the system is in his own group, so files for user "bob" are 
> created by default with owner "bob" and group "bob".  Most users are also 
> in a group called "staff".  I want to make a shared space for the staff 
> group where every file and subdirectory created within our staff directory 
> always has the group "staff" (recursively for the whole tree).  This will 
> be our shared space.  How can I do that?

The sgid bit[1]. "chmod g+s <dir>; chgrp staff <dir>" and new files
will have the staff group set. I suspect that the default umask will
hinder what you want though. So, you can either: change everyone's
umask, run a quick and dirty cron, or a fancy inotify script.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgid

> 
> The system where I'm most interested in doing this now is a CentOS system, 
> but I want to be able to do it on Ubuntu or any other Linux system.

distro-agnostic issue.

> 
> By the way, I really don't like this new scheme where every user has his 
> own group.  I know that it helps to keep things private, but I'm working 
> on a system where I want more sharing and less privacy.  I suppose it 
> protects us a little bit from rare mistakes, but it gets in the way all 
> the time.  The people managing the system think we can have this shared 
> space, as described above, but so far we don't have it.

Well, you can set a default group for the user(s). (usermod -g staff
<user>)

Hope that helps,
Jeremy


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:02:24 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:02:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
 this)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain>	<AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com>	<CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com>	<AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com>	<c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost>	<AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C698B40.6010302@gmail.com>

 On 8/16/2010 1:28 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> Every user on the system is in his own group, so files for user "bob" are 
> created by default with owner "bob" and group "bob".  Most users are also 
> in a group called "staff".  I want to make a shared space for the staff 
> group where every file and subdirectory created within our staff directory 
> always has the group "staff" (recursively for the whole tree).  This will 
> be our shared space.  How can I do that?
Set the sgid bit on that directory and change its group to staff. Files
created in that directory will automagically have its group set to
staff. Files transferred to that directory will not be changed
automatically though, so if you are transferring files to it more than
creating new ones, this may not be practical. Also, the default umask
might not be practical since it only gives the group read access. I've
used this set up with an FTP share and it worked wonderfully (I could
change the umask for uploaded files, which doesn't affect the users'
umask value(s) outside FTP).
On a related note, does anyone know why the Linux kernel ignores the
suid bit on directories?


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Mon Aug 16 14:08:49 2010
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:08:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] File ownership question (I should probably know
	this)
In-Reply-To: <d4999c8f0bfeb3fca92c1bc8ac69418d@localhost>
References: <AANLkTi=we=oKOj4bEXvmNxNgY1dze6xaTXpV+BKunGz4@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161126250.12697@localhost.localdomain><AANLkTimW=yNjeUzh=x5cbngQDiOkpCVV-=XKsRjbw+F8@mail.gmail.com><CDE653CE-2262-4AAE-8584-A7BA6C878C71@me.com><AANLkTimMbyN+NiiKXvfpGps2qytsQ=K38T_8P9L5yyGN@mail.gmail.com><c213436a3a68aa25a4dd90ccb65e827c@localhost><AANLkTimV05o=n7GozoOFmL9yTrXc9hTb6zgmNu+P6F-h@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008161316400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<d4999c8f0bfeb3fca92c1bc8ac69418d@localhost>
Message-ID: <1281985729.14119.1390190935@webmail.messagingengine.com>



On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:44 -0500, "Jeremy Olexa" <jolexa at jolexa.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT), Mike Miller
> <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a highly-related question...
> > 
> > Every user on the system is in his own group, so files for user "bob" are 
> > created by default with owner "bob" and group "bob".  Most users are also 
> > in a group called "staff".  I want to make a shared space for the staff 
> > group where every file and subdirectory created within our staff directory 
> > always has the group "staff" (recursively for the whole tree).  This will 
> > be our shared space.  How can I do that?
> 
> The sgid bit[1]. "chmod g+s <dir>; chgrp staff <dir>" and new files
> will have the staff group set. I suspect that the default umask will
> hinder what you want though. So, you can either: change everyone's
> umask, run a quick and dirty cron, or a fancy inotify script.
> 
Another option is to use an ACL so that any file or directory created in
the tree automatically inherits the needed permissions for the staff
group. Not only are you limited to granting permission to a single group
(staff) but, more generally, to any desired combination of users and/or
groups. (e.g. staff plus user bob who is not part of staff)




From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Wed Aug 18 01:18:03 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:18:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Lightweight Linux Distros at Penguins Unbound Saturday
	August 21st
Message-ID: <4C6B7B1B.2000906@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday August 21st at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

Lightweight Linux Distros

Jason Hsu will talk about Lightweight Linux Distros.  He will show how
various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB
of RAM.  He will demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other
distros.

Hope to see you there.

==>brian.


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Thu Aug 19 09:52:28 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:52:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
Message-ID: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>

There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.


http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing


I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested 
to know.

==>brian.


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 10:13:07 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:13:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D4A03.2000304@meltel.net>

Brian wrote:
> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>
>
> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>
>
> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested 
> to know.
>
> ==>brian.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Thanks for the heads up.  I'll be there.
Tom


From hpenner at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 10:41:14 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:41:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>

At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.

Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
about the problem as we tclug'ers...

Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.

-Harry

On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:

> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>
>
> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>
>
> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
> to know.
>
> ==>brian.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Aug 19 10:53:52 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:53:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com>

I agree.


On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:41:14 -0500
  Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has 
>flourished in
> large part because its original sponsor, the federal 
>government, has
> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government 
>regulations
> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we 
>enjoy on it)?
> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom 
>rather than
> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it 
>seems to me that
> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect 
>us little
> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
> 
> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we 
>should be
> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can 
>usually vote with
> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, 
>but
> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And 
>the regs will
> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as 
>thoughtful
> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
> 
> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep 
>their paws off us.
> 
> -Harry
> 
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> 
>wrote:
> 
>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in 
>>the Twin Cities.
>>
>>
>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>
>>
>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would 
>>be interested
>> to know.
>>
>> ==>brian.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 



From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:01:56 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:01:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>

Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
story:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-We-Know-It!

In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
and so it got reported that way.

In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.

My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
content).

Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.

Long live Ted Stevens,

-Erik

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
> At the risk of flames: ?the Internet as we know it has flourished in
> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
> mostly left it alone. ?Why do we think adding government regulations
> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
> increasing it, by definition? ?I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>
> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
> careful what we ask ?for. ?With companies you can usually vote with
> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
> regulations are usually universal and forever... ?And the regs will
> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>
> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>
> -Harry
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>
>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>
>>
>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>
>>
>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>> to know.
>>
>> ==>brian.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From jolexa at jolexa.net  Thu Aug 19 11:12:22 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:12:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D4A03.2000304@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com> <4C6D4A03.2000304@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <27cf4f4d2c3312e8c3d763c876cea470@localhost>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:13:07 -0500, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:

> Thanks for the heads up.  I'll be there.
> Tom

Tom (or anyone else going),

Can someone take notes and post a brief summary on this thread?

Thanks,
Jeremy


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 11:14:57 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:14:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>

I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the unofficial stance official) today on MPR was way off base.

He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without paying money in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my experience, this is not true; they just won't reap the benefits of people getting their content at the speed which their provider provides.

I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than colocation of my custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon 14TB) because I don't have $15,000 to spend on the rack space requirements for the servers plus the monthly colocation costs for 2U to 8U of space.

My two bits.
--
Ryan

On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
> story:
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-We-Know-It!
> 
> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
> and so it got reported that way.
> 
> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
> 
> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
> content).
> 
> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
> 
> Long live Ted Stevens,
> 
> -Erik
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>> 
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>> 
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>> 
>> -Harry
>> 
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>>> to know.
>>> 
>>> ==>brian.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 11:29:13 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:29:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>

Harry Penner wrote:
> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>
> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>
> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>
> -Harry
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>
>>
>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>
>>
>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>> to know.
>>
>> ==>brian.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Harry:  Good question.  Another way you can ask the question:  Do we 
want corporations to control the content offered on the Internet, or do 
we want government to step in and make sure corporations don't even 
attempt to control the content we can access?

You can ask that question, and probably answer it quickly, eh?
Tom


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Aug 19 11:30:50 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:30:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
Message-ID: <9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Feel free to call me cynical after you read this :)

In general i am a fan of net neutrality, i think corporate interests (greed
for money) will eventual lead to many companies elbowing out smaller or
undesireable voices from their large scale networks. on the other hand it is
a delicate situation because if a company invests in its own deployment of
network infrastructure why are they not allowed to divvy up access however
they like? the problem to me is these massive monopolies or even co-opolies
(is that a word?) will work for what their best interests are which
frequently will result in taking advantage of customers every chance they
get. then only after long and tiring government and private investigations,
court involvements, watch dog marketing campaigns, etc will there be a "take
it easy on the customers" change of attitude (at least enough change to stop
the onslaught). The importance of the internet to the world i think means we
need to have some regulation on companies involved in connecting the
internet. it is not just a little side project/hobby/convenience for people
and companies, it is massively critical for large swaths of the population.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is another
challenging issue regarding personal rights, including "corporate personal
rights", and public good and "public rights". There are many examples of
this in history. Freedom, rights, responsibilities, value systems, beliefs,
nothing is easy when dealing with a large enough scales.

I tend to believe the strong pressure for companies to make money will not
result in a better internet overall if significant portions of the internet
are unevenly balanced with the sole reason being an advertiser is willing to
pay for it. The tight integration of the internet into more and more aspects
of our lives is making it more and more an important part of our
infrastructure and less and less a convenience/luxury.

We need to be careful and having OPEN and FREE public discussions are
critically important. I am glad there are non trivial people attending this
like the FCC commissioners and Senator Franken and other prominent
individuals. The people need to be heard no matter their viewpoint. 

As for the recent google/Verizon publicity, as far as I know they neither of
those companies have the rights to form, enact, or police government
regulations. As I understand it they are just making a proposal, which if
passed into law by our government would likely go thru tons of revisions
during their procedures of creating laws.

Wish I could go tonight but I have other commitments already.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota

I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the unofficial
stance official) today on MPR was way off base.

He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without paying money
in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my experience, this is not true;
they just won't reap the benefits of people getting their content at the
speed which their provider provides.

I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than colocation of my
custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon 14TB) because I don't have
$15,000 to spend on the rack space requirements for the servers plus the
monthly colocation costs for 2U to 8U of space.

My two bits.
--
Ryan

On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
> story:
> 
>
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-W
e-Know-It!
> 
> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
> and so it got reported that way.
> 
> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
> 
> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
> content).
> 
> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
> 
> Long live Ted Stevens,
> 
> -Erik
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>> 
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>> 
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off
us.
>> 
>> -Harry
>> 
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>>> to know.
>>> 
>>> ==>brian.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 11:30:15 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:30:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>

Jeff Jensen wrote:
> I agree.
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:41:14 -0500
>   Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has 
>> flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal 
>> government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government 
>> regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we 
>> enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom 
>> rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it 
>> seems to me that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect 
>> us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we 
>> should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can 
>> usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, 
>> but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And 
>> the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as 
>> thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep 
>> their paws off us.
>>
>> -Harry
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in 
>>> the Twin Cities.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would 
>>> be interested
>>> to know.
>>>
>>> ==>brian.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Really?  You want corporations to control the content you have access to 
on the Internet?
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 11:40:24 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:40:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>

Ryan Coleman wrote:
> I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the unofficial stance official) today on MPR was way off base.
>
> He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without paying money in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my experience, this is not true; they just won't reap the benefits of people getting their content at the speed which their provider provides.
>
> I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than colocation of my custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon 14TB) because I don't have $15,000 to spend on the rack space requirements for the servers plus the monthly colocation costs for 2U to 8U of space.
>
> My two bits.
> --
> Ryan
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
>   
>> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
>> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
>> story:
>>
>> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-We-Know-It!
>>
>> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
>> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
>> and so it got reported that way.
>>
>> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
>> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
>> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
>> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
>> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
>> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
>>
>> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
>> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
>> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
>> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
>> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
>> content).
>>
>> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
>> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
>>
>> Long live Ted Stevens,
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>>
>>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>>
>>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>>>
>>> -Harry
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>>>> to know.
>>>>
>>>> ==>brian.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> -- 
>> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> erik at ekmitchell.com
>> http://ekmitchell.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Comcast effectively blocked content, using your logic, Erik.  This issue 
is about access to the Internet, without providers inserting themselves 
between you and the content.  Providers need to focus on transmission, 
not engage in selective censoring of what you and I want to see, hear, 
or communicate.  The FCC needs to, at this point, reassign the Internet 
in order to limit the role of providers to that of transmission, rather 
than engage in services preferences activities.  Think of the issue as 
one of: do we want the Internet to look like cable companies deciding 
what channels we receive for our Internet access fees?
Tom


From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:43:52 2010
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:43:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJdHT5ukmMspyzghE0bQoEhgu2dcCod1CzsVfi@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> Really? ?You want corporations to control the content you have access to
> on the Internet?

I want this: http://gizmodo.com/5391707/losing-net-neutrality-the-worst-case-scenario
Note that I don't know that there is any truth to this prediction.
Gizmodo has a history of being silly.  But hey, I think it's funny, as
long as it doesn't actually happen.
- Justin


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 11:42:34 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:42:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D5EFA.5080503@meltel.net>

Justin Krejci wrote:
> Feel free to call me cynical after you read this :)
>
> In general i am a fan of net neutrality, i think corporate interests (greed
> for money) will eventual lead to many companies elbowing out smaller or
> undesireable voices from their large scale networks. on the other hand it is
> a delicate situation because if a company invests in its own deployment of
> network infrastructure why are they not allowed to divvy up access however
> they like? the problem to me is these massive monopolies or even co-opolies
> (is that a word?) will work for what their best interests are which
> frequently will result in taking advantage of customers every chance they
> get. then only after long and tiring government and private investigations,
> court involvements, watch dog marketing campaigns, etc will there be a "take
> it easy on the customers" change of attitude (at least enough change to stop
> the onslaught). The importance of the internet to the world i think means we
> need to have some regulation on companies involved in connecting the
> internet. it is not just a little side project/hobby/convenience for people
> and companies, it is massively critical for large swaths of the population.
> Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is another
> challenging issue regarding personal rights, including "corporate personal
> rights", and public good and "public rights". There are many examples of
> this in history. Freedom, rights, responsibilities, value systems, beliefs,
> nothing is easy when dealing with a large enough scales.
>
> I tend to believe the strong pressure for companies to make money will not
> result in a better internet overall if significant portions of the internet
> are unevenly balanced with the sole reason being an advertiser is willing to
> pay for it. The tight integration of the internet into more and more aspects
> of our lives is making it more and more an important part of our
> infrastructure and less and less a convenience/luxury.
>
> We need to be careful and having OPEN and FREE public discussions are
> critically important. I am glad there are non trivial people attending this
> like the FCC commissioners and Senator Franken and other prominent
> individuals. The people need to be heard no matter their viewpoint. 
>
> As for the recent google/Verizon publicity, as far as I know they neither of
> those companies have the rights to form, enact, or police government
> regulations. As I understand it they are just making a proposal, which if
> passed into law by our government would likely go thru tons of revisions
> during their procedures of creating laws.
>
> Wish I could go tonight but I have other commitments already.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
>
> I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the unofficial
> stance official) today on MPR was way off base.
>
> He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without paying money
> in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my experience, this is not true;
> they just won't reap the benefits of people getting their content at the
> speed which their provider provides.
>
> I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than colocation of my
> custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon 14TB) because I don't have
> $15,000 to spend on the rack space requirements for the servers plus the
> monthly colocation costs for 2U to 8U of space.
>
> My two bits.
> --
> Ryan
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
>   
>> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
>> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
>> story:
>>
>>
>>     
> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-W
> e-Know-It!
>   
>> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
>> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
>> and so it got reported that way.
>>
>> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
>> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
>> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
>> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
>> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
>> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
>>
>> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
>> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
>> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
>> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
>> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
>> content).
>>
>> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
>> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
>>
>> Long live Ted Stevens,
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>>
>>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>>
>>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off
>>>       
> us.
>   
>>> -Harry
>>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>>>> to know.
>>>>
>>>> ==>brian.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> -- 
>> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> erik at ekmitchell.com
>> http://ekmitchell.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Well stated, Justin.
Tom


From hpenner at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:47:30 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:47:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>

Do we want some corporations controlling the speed of some of our
traffic, or do we want the government controlling probably a lot more
than that?  ;)

Ask the question any way you like; I just think it's always a good
idea to look long and hard at a problem before deciding it's so
intractable that more government restrictions are the answer.

-Harry

On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:29, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Harry:  Good question.  Another way you can ask the question:  Do we
> want corporations to control the content offered on the Internet, or do
> we want government to step in and make sure corporations don't even
> attempt to control the content we can access?
>
> You can ask that question, and probably answer it quickly, eh?
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 12:05:03 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:05:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikhQ2y85SXGBXSqhyoy-t4=8_KV6s3Tx+5tOTim@mail.gmail.com>

While I don't know specifically what case (re Comcast) you're
referring to, I agree with your position on the overall issue.

My point is that we need to be careful when asking for government
intervention (and I was agreeing with Harry on that point). We might
ask for neutral provision of access to be mandated by law, and find
that the regulation makes it illegal to prioritize video or VOIP
packets, for example. That would be a bad unintended consequence.

It's important for people who understand the issue well to remind
everyone else what it's about -- as you've done here (as in your last
sentence about channels). It's also important for us to be careful
when calling for government regulations, because we may find ourselves
worse off after the fact.

-Erik



>>
> Comcast effectively blocked content, using your logic, Erik. ?This issue
> is about access to the Internet, without providers inserting themselves
> between you and the content. ?Providers need to focus on transmission,
> not engage in selective censoring of what you and I want to see, hear,
> or communicate. ?The FCC needs to, at this point, reassign the Internet
> in order to limit the role of providers to that of transmission, rather
> than engage in services preferences activities. ?Think of the issue as
> one of: do we want the Internet to look like cable companies deciding
> what channels we receive for our Internet access fees?
> Tom



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 12:09:15 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:09:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I don't think you should show up to argue against federal regulation 
unless you know what that regulation will be.  There is a lot of b.s. 
floating around the web and on Fox News about how horrible government is, 
and if only we could destroy it, then we'd all be free.  This is baseless 
rubbish being promoted by powerful people who want to be more powerful.

If you don't want police, fire departments, roads, public schools, state 
universities, a postal service, or a military, then you don't want a 
government.  As you said, without our federal government you wouldn't have 
an internet.  So I don't think it's wise to simply presume that whatever 
the government might do will be bad.  It can go either way and you just 
have to know what a policy is before you oppose it.

If someone wants to discuss specific policies that are being considered 
and the probably consequences of adopting those policies, I'd be very 
interested to learn more about it.  One thing I wouldn't want is for ISPs 
to reduce user access to certain sites at certain times, etc., forcing 
content providers to pay for access to users.  We know that the market 
doesn't always take care of such problems by providing us with what we 
want for some higher price.

Mike


On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>
> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>
> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>
> -Harry
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>
>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>
>>
>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>
>>
>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>> to know.
>>
>> ==>brian.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Aug 19 12:05:43 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:05:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <web-23974348@mailback1.g2host.com>

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From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 12:06:38 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:06:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net> <-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>

Harry Penner wrote:
> Do we want some corporations controlling the speed of some of our
> traffic, or do we want the government controlling probably a lot more
> than that?  ;)
>
> Ask the question any way you like; I just think it's always a good
> idea to look long and hard at a problem before deciding it's so
> intractable that more government restrictions are the answer.
>
> -Harry
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:29, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
>   
>>>
>>>       
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Harry:  Good question.  Another way you can ask the question:  Do we
>>>       
>> want corporations to control the content offered on the Internet, or do
>> we want government to step in and make sure corporations don't even
>> attempt to control the content we can access?
>>
>> You can ask that question, and probably answer it quickly, eh?
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Harry:  When AT&T ruled the airwaves, did the government step in and 
restrict those airwaves even more?  Or did we get the CarterPhone 
decision that gave us choices on how our airwaves, that we own, were 
used?  The FCC isn't seeking to restrict us.  It's seeking to restrict 
the corporate thugs.
Tom


From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Aug 19 12:05:30 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:05:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <web-23974342@mailback1.g2host.com>

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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 12:11:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:11:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191209440.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> Do we want some corporations controlling the speed of some of our 
> traffic, or do we want the government controlling probably a lot more 
> than that?  ;)
>
> Ask the question any way you like; I just think it's always a good idea 
> to look long and hard at a problem before deciding it's so intractable 
> that more government restrictions are the answer.


Your question is too vague.  It isn't really worth discussing.  If you 
learn something about the topic and want to talk about what sorts of 
options are available, what the problems are, what kinds of laws are being 
proposed, etc., then you'd have something.

Mike


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 12:12:52 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:12:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality OT(off topic)
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>

I think that the future will be wimax pirate radio. The internet is still
young and in time it will be the same as television. Where if you want to
watch a football game you will have to fork over 150 dollars a season.
Everything shared openly with the masses eventually has so many laws
and rules attached to it it becomes useless or ineffective.Then pirate Wifi
will popup. I have read building community wireless networks and I
can envision people who will set up a radius network and a primary caching
server connected to the outside(garbage internet). Do you agree? How will
you stay free in the coming years?
Ron
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 12:10:31 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:10:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJdHT5ukmMspyzghE0bQoEhgu2dcCod1CzsVfi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com>
	<4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTinJdHT5ukmMspyzghE0bQoEhgu2dcCod1CzsVfi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D6587.1000706@meltel.net>

Justin Kremer wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
>   
>> Really?  You want corporations to control the content you have access to
>> on the Internet?
>>     
>
> I want this: http://gizmodo.com/5391707/losing-net-neutrality-the-worst-case-scenario
> Note that I don't know that there is any truth to this prediction.
> Gizmodo has a history of being silly.  But hey, I think it's funny, as
> long as it doesn't actually happen.
> - Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Nice catch, Justin.  That's an excellent scenario.
Tom


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Thu Aug 19 12:21:57 2010
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:21:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>


> Harry:  When AT&T ruled the airwaves, did the government step in and 
> restrict those airwaves even more?  Or did we get the CarterPhone 
> decision that gave us choices on how our airwaves, that we own, were 
> used?  The FCC isn't seeking to restrict us.  It's seeking to restrict 
> the corporate thugs.
> Tom

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Take, for example the case of
the Broadcast Flag where it was demanded by the FCC that devices follow
rules to thwart piracy. This is at the expense of our freedom to
manufacture and buy hardware that can otherwise have legitimate use.


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 12:49:07 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:49:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <web-23974342@mailback1.g2host.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com>
	<4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net> <web-23974342@mailback1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D6E93.40603@meltel.net>

Jeff Jensen wrote:
> No, I don't want the government messing up more things.  Its policies 
> create more problems than they solve.
>
> The free market will take care of this issue better than anything.
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:30:15 -0500
> Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> > Jeff Jensen wrote:
> >> I agree.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:41:14 -0500
> >> Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> At the risk of flames: the Internet as we know it has
> >>> flourished in
> >>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal
> >>> government, has
> >>> mostly left it alone. Why do we think adding government
> >>> regulations
> >>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we
> >>> enjoy on it)?
> >>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom
> >>> rather than
> >>> increasing it, by definition? I'm no futurist but it
> >>> seems to me that
> >>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect
> >>> us little
> >>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we
> >>> should be
> >>> careful what we ask for. With companies you can
> >>> usually vote with
> >>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior,
> >>> but
> >>> regulations are usually universal and forever... And
> >>> the regs will
> >>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as
> >>> thoughtful
> >>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
> >>>
> >>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep
> >>> their paws off us.
> >>>
> >>> -Harry
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in
> >>>> the Twin Cities.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would
> >>>> be interested
> >>>> to know.
> >>>>
> >>>> ==>brian.
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> >>
> > Really? You want corporations to control the content
> >you have access to
> > on the Internet?
> > Tom
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Well, Jeff:  This is where we part ways.  Your free market crashed and 
the global economy is in ruins, as a result.  Your chief architect, 
Greenspan, apologized for not realizing the free market won't police 
itself, and pure greed would cause ruination, rather than moderation.  
You're welcome to your beliefs, but if you think the owners of our 
airwaves are going to let corporate greed control our airwaves, you're 
fighting a whole lot of the world population.
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 12:54:03 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:54:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
	<4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D6FBB.5070906@meltel.net>

Isaac Atilano wrote:
>> Harry:  When AT&T ruled the airwaves, did the government step in and 
>> restrict those airwaves even more?  Or did we get the CarterPhone 
>> decision that gave us choices on how our airwaves, that we own, were 
>> used?  The FCC isn't seeking to restrict us.  It's seeking to restrict 
>> the corporate thugs.
>> Tom
>>     
>
> Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Take, for example the case of
> the Broadcast Flag where it was demanded by the FCC that devices follow
> rules to thwart piracy. This is at the expense of our freedom to
> manufacture and buy hardware that can otherwise have legitimate use.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Good point.  The FCC wasn't the culprit, though.  It was the RIAA.  
There was an exemption written into their proposal in a footnote, as I 
recall, that exempted their computers.  Luckily, the tech manufacturing 
industry decided it was a loser for them, if they bought into it.
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 12:59:20 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:59:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality OT(off topic)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D70F8.3050900@meltel.net>

r j wrote:
> I think that the future will be wimax pirate radio. The internet is 
> still young and in time it will be the same as television. Where if 
> you want to watch a football game you will have to fork over 150 
> dollars a season. Everything shared openly with the 
> masses eventually has so many laws and rules attached to it it becomes 
> useless or ineffective.Then pirate Wifi will popup. I have read 
> building community wireless networks and I can envision people who 
> will set up a radius network and a primary caching server connected to 
> the outside(garbage internet). Do you agree? How will you stay free in 
> the coming years? 
> Ron  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
rj:  Music to my ears.  I would love to learn more about pirate wimax.  
My lifelong ambition is to see low cost local wireless mesh networks in 
every neighborhood and community in Minnesota, linked by wimax.  Even 
without Internet access, the communities could participate in local 
broadband infrastructures that could be leveraged as "markets" that 
providers would have to bid to gain access to them.

What would it take to set up a radius network?
Tom


From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 13:02:48 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:02:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>
> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>
> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us.
>
> -Harry
>
>
Harry,

How about instead of making sweeping generalizations you make
a case for your position with supporting arguments.  Regulation
is no less a double-edged sword than an absence of regulation.
How does net-neutrality regulation harm us?  How does the
absence of net-neutrality regulation help us?  Do you even
properly understand the topic you are debating, and do you know
for a fact the federal government mostly left the internet alone
after funding its creation and development, or does it just seem
that way to you for other reasons?

I don't think you should apologize for your comments sounding
trollish.  I think you should apologize for making trollish comments.

I can already see this thread spinning away into the land of
rhetoric.

-Rob
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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Thu Aug 19 13:32:15 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:32:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
	<4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D78AF.9000508@Goecke-Dolan.com>


Who was pushing that broadcast flag ? Who wanted it ?

It was pushed by big business, and stop by the courts. I am not exactly 
sure of the ruling on it, but I believe it was related to the the fair 
use law. So despite some peoples dislike of government, it does to what 
the people want if we work hard enough.

At least with government we have some recourse, and can change things. 
With big business we just get the crap they dish out, and told to go 
somewhere else if we don't like it!  Don't have too many choices when 
they all do the same thing and push the same crap? (isn't that collusion ? )

? Is there anyone that likes their ComCast choices ? The other crap you 
have to buy with the channels you want ? or the fact you have to have 
ComCast set top boxes now!

Sure let big business do what it wants cause it worked so well in the 
Gulf and deep sea oil drilling ! And with Tabacco, they were KILLING 
their customers, so they made product better and safer by selling it 
younger people!

==>brian.

On 08/19/2010 12:21 PM, Isaac Atilano wrote:
>
>> Harry:  When AT&T ruled the airwaves, did the government step in and
>> restrict those airwaves even more?  Or did we get the CarterPhone
>> decision that gave us choices on how our airwaves, that we own, were
>> used?  The FCC isn't seeking to restrict us.  It's seeking to restrict
>> the corporate thugs.
>> Tom
>
> Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Take, for example the case of
> the Broadcast Flag where it was demanded by the FCC that devices follow
> rules to thwart piracy. This is at the expense of our freedom to
> manufacture and buy hardware that can otherwise have legitimate use.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Aug 19 13:50:52 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:50:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D6E93.40603@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
	<web-23974342@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D6E93.40603@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <web-23976190@mailback1.g2host.com>

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From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Aug 19 13:59:48 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:59:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D78AF.9000508@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<4C6D78AF.9000508@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <web-21178402@mailback2.g2host.com>

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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:10:28 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:10:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMAX @ tom
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxG5L=nRu52zUTyk7u-pf=sk+LJ7KTVFS5ysuv@mail.gmail.com>

Considering WiMAX has a radius of 30 miles one transmitter should should do
the job. Setting up a Linux server with Apache and two network cards will do
the trick.You'll definitely need a WiMAX transmitting tower. in building
wireless community networks the focus was on regular 802 11 WiFi and setting
up multiple repeaters. You have to do some door knocking to get some to get
support from the local community to share the cost of setting up your WiMAX
tower. With a radius of 30 miles you could lower the WiMAX tower cost to a
couple dollars a year per person. Easily less than five dollars a year per
person. WiMAXX transfer rates are around 70 Mb per second with a bunch of
repeaters you could cover most of the state with a slow transfer rate but
everyone can still communicate. And then it's a matter of keeping the
corporate people off of your net. If you only have radius of 30 miles you
could require people in the local area to ftp via your net for access to
community content sending their  Mac address and you could add that to your
access list.
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:23:13 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:23:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
Message-ID: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.

-- 
?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.?
? Mark Twain
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From trnja001 at umn.edu  Thu Aug 19 14:27:45 2010
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:27:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D85B1.1080800@umn.edu>

On 8/19/2010 2:23 PM, r j wrote:
> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.
>
> -- 
> ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things 
> that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the 
> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in 
> your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
> ? Mark Twain
>
How much does a transmitter cost?


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 14:57:13 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:57:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D8C99.1090506@meltel.net>

r j wrote:
> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.
>
> -- 
> ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things 
> that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the 
> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in 
> your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
> ? Mark Twain
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
rj: Hold onto that $500. Let's set up a meeting, and if we do it right, 
I think we can put a business plan together, and work up a grant writing 
strategy. I'm on a VA pension, so I can adjust my schedule to meet 
yours. It would seem there's enough technical expertise on the list to 
get a core group together to talk about it. Count me in, and I'll follow 
your lead.
Tom


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:08:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:08:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality OT(off topic)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191500390.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, r j wrote:

> Everything shared openly with the masses eventually has so many laws
> and rules attached to it it becomes useless or ineffective.

Television?  Telephone?  Cell phones?  Are they not working?  You might 
not like everything about how thye work, but all of them are working 
better now than they ever did.

Therefore, I think you are completely wrong.

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 15:12:54 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:12:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <4C6D8C99.1090506@meltel.net>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6D8C99.1090506@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <1C14DBA8-E37A-41AF-B236-E6E39A49A156@me.com>

I'd be interested in investing time (money is not handy right now -- falling off Unemployment and getting my photo business LLC'd).

On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Tom Poe wrote:

> r j wrote:
>> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.
>> 
>> -- 
>> ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things 
>> that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the 
>> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in 
>> your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
>> ? Mark Twain
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> rj: Hold onto that $500. Let's set up a meeting, and if we do it right, 
> I think we can put a business plan together, and work up a grant writing 
> strategy. I'm on a VA pension, so I can adjust my schedule to meet 
> yours. It would seem there's enough technical expertise on the list to 
> get a core group together to talk about it. Count me in, and I'll follow 
> your lead.
> Tom
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:18:56 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:18:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <web-23976190@mailback1.g2host.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<web-23972715@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D5C17.3060601@meltel.net>
	<web-23974342@mailback1.g2host.com> <4C6D6E93.40603@meltel.net>
	<web-23976190@mailback1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191514050.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Jeff Jensen wrote:

> Greed/power/control is desired by people everywhere in every role - 
> government, private business, and public sector.? If you think giving 
> government that power will save you from greed/ruinationt/et al, we 
> extremely part ways.

At least with government, you have a vote.  It is a government of the 
people, by the people and for the people.  The corporations are for the 
corporations, only, and the people are irrelevant.  That is the difference 
between government control and corporate control, and that is why we 
absolutely need for government to be able to regulate corporations.  It is 
also why corporations don't want to be regulated -- it is in their 
interest to collude, to monopolize, to over-price, to pollute, to kill. 
They spew their anti-government rhetoric to the masses via Fox News, talk 
radio, etc., and tens of millions of people believe every lie they hear.

Mike

From hpenner at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:19:40 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:19:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>

Come on, Rob, let's keep things civil.  We can disagree without calling each
other trolls.  I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it may
seem like a small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of
governmental intervention as anything else.

Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us safe, and
some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our choices, because
that's what regulations are designed to DO.  The market is free-for-all that
gives us choices.  Regulation restricts providers of goods or services from
offering us some of those choices because we (loosely defined) think those
choices are bad enough that nobody should be allowed to make them.

You asked for examples:  New vehicles are required to have seat belts in
order to be sold to the public and be allowed on the roads.  Sounds like a
reasonable regulation to me.  On the other hand, we have regulations on
telecomm companies that make them go through all kinds of crazy govt
approvals and rigid pricing structures that when I worked in the telecomm
industry 11 years ago some smaller telcos would tell me that they couldn't
afford to offer DSL to their customers because they could only lose money on
it (not because customers wouldn't pay, but because they weren't allowed to
charge enough to recoup their costs).  That may have changed by now, but I
doubt it since I have to use 3G at home because it's 2010 and Sprint still
hasn't put in a DSLAM in my area.  Specific to the FCC, we've got the
restriction on obscenity on radio and TV.  I personally think that's a good
reg (I have kids), but I know people who think we'd have better content if
we allowed freer speech on the airwaves.

Nobody here is saying all regulation is bad.  I'm saying it's a big clumsy
weapon that we should think very carefully about before using.  Some people
seem to react quickly to the issue -- your reaction, for instance, was too
quick to take the time to give examples or demonstrate any in-depth
knowledge of the issue, which is exactly what you criticized me for --
rather than thinking it through.

If regulation is the answer, so be it, but as a fellow internet user who
will have to live with those regulations for a long time -- because most
regulations, no matter how poorly written, are hard to change or undo (think
DMCA) -- I'm asking you to think it through instead of calling people names.

-Harry

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off
>> us.
>>
>> -Harry
>>
>>
> Harry,
>
> How about instead of making sweeping generalizations you make
> a case for your position with supporting arguments.  Regulation
> is no less a double-edged sword than an absence of regulation.
> How does net-neutrality regulation harm us?  How does the
> absence of net-neutrality regulation help us?  Do you even
> properly understand the topic you are debating, and do you know
> for a fact the federal government mostly left the internet alone
> after funding its creation and development, or does it just seem
> that way to you for other reasons?
>
> I don't think you should apologize for your comments sounding
> trollish.  I think you should apologize for making trollish comments.
>
> I can already see this thread spinning away into the land of
> rhetoric.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 19 15:20:50 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:20:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <4C6D8C99.1090506@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEIGDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

TCLUG doesn't do business plans.  That requires being incorporated so a
non-profit corp could be defined.  Here comes TC-WiMax Inc, and it's just
another corporation filing papers, seeking licenses, and so on.  Just donate
money: somebody will manage it!    :-)

Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Tom Poe
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:57 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
>
>
> r j wrote:
> > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
> community network.
> >
> > --
> >
> rj: Hold onto that $500. Let's set up a meeting, and if we do it right,
> I think we can put a business plan together, and work up a grant writing
> strategy. I'm on a VA pension, so I can adjust my schedule to meet
> yours. It would seem there's enough technical expertise on the list to
> get a core group together to talk about it. Count me in, and I'll follow
> your lead.
> Tom




From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Tue Aug 17 09:47:46 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:47:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>


I think it's fascinating.  Software complexity had exceeded our  
ability to manage it.  Sins of software makers have piled ontop each  
other and become part of the foundation.  And then there's just old  
fashioned mistakes.

Our software is swiss cheese.  Every time I pull a dozen 'security  
updates', I realize there were a dozen holes yesterday.  And there  
will be a dozen holes tomorrow.

When ssh/ssl had a hole a couple years ago that rendered it  
ineffective (200k possible keys), that alone meant almost everyone was  
vulnerable.  And it was caused by just a simple programming mistake.

I worked on FAA-certified aviation software for a bit, and that's an  
example of how you write software to be secure.  But it's also crazy  
expensive.  Each if-statement and for-loop has to have a test case.   
The tester is independant from the coder.

The big computer virus bot networks?  I doubt they are ran by a  
swedish tennager from his parents basement.  If an IT admin is  
challenged running a network with 100 desktops, all running the same  
software, then how many admins does it take to rum a decentralized  
network of 10,000,000 nodes in a hostile environment, using custom  
software, and across diverse platforms?

Considering the power of bot nets, if they aren't run by governments,  
or at least infiltrated by govts, then it is alsmost negligence.

The plus side:  Since robots are now being used in warfare, and  
carrying live ammo, I'm ok with software being imperfect.  That will  
be how we defeat skynet :)

Jeremy





Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.

On Aug 16, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> An 8-minute segment:
>
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec10/cybersec_08-10.html
>
> You can watch it or read the transcript.  What do you think?  I  
> think we
> have a problem that we can fix, but only if we take it seriously and  
> are
> willing to work on it.  I'm not sure that we're up to it right now.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 13:06:43 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:06:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>

While this is obviously a tender discussion and teetering on fallling into a
free market vs. Regulations flame war, I just want to make one point with
clearifications.

When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in return? I
expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider like cable
TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want, like a freeway.
Some people would rather have a content provider, and that is fine. Without
regulations, both business models can exist through the free market. With
regulations, we will be shackled into one method or another. With the free
market, the next brilliant idea I have, I can form it into a business model.
With regulations, I will need to conform my idea to the law.
It all comes down to, if you do not like the way things are currently
working what choises do you have to fix it? With a free market, you have the
ability to start up your own business and drive the market, or invest in
someone who is working torwards your interests. With regulations, you will
need to change the law first and then work towards driving the market. Which
do you think is better for innovation? Which do you think is better for
personal choice?
My personal opinion (so take it for what it is worth) is that the govenment
needs to stay out of it, and enforce the right of property and trade as in
the Carter phone decision.

Regards,
Simmons

This message was sent from my android phone.
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From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Thu Aug 19 14:57:36 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:57:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<4C6D5E78.2000904@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <5AAFC14D-D4C7-4B7E-A8A3-84A3BA962A3D@lizakowski.com>


I can think of a reason Verizon wants to monetize our traffic.

Last month I looked into replacing a smartphone with a broadband  
adapter, handheld, and skype.  It's feasible, more flexible, and  
cheaper.  But it's not smooth - multple devices needed.  That can  
change easily enough.

I thought: this must scare the cellphone companies.  If it happens,  
then verizon is just a wireless ISP and an electronic gadget store.   
Gone are the money makers like app stores, ringtones, and monthly fees  
for voicemail or navigation.  Bandwidth is a commodity.  Verizon would  
be a leader, but it's still a race to the bottom.

All that's left is monetizing bandwidth and content.

Bandwidth is already monetized.  But content has been largely off  
limits.

Essentially, it looks like they are trying to raise money by  
interfering with commerce and privacy.

You could do the same thing in the real world too, though it's  
unadvisable.  Fedex drivers would get pretty mad at you.

Jeremy




Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.


On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:

> Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the  
>> unofficial stance official) today on MPR was way off base.
>>
>> He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without  
>> paying money in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my  
>> experience, this is not true; they just won't reap the benefits of  
>> people getting their content at the speed which their provider  
>> provides.
>>
>> I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than  
>> colocation of my custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon  
>> 14TB) because I don't have $15,000 to spend on the rack space  
>> requirements for the servers plus the monthly colocation costs for  
>> 2U to 8U of space.
>>
>> My two bits.
>> --
>> Ryan
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
>>> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
>>> story:
>>>
>>> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-We-Know-It!
>>>
>>> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
>>> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things  
>>> story
>>> and so it got reported that way.
>>>
>>> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined.  
>>> Media
>>> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES  
>>> should
>>> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
>>> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it  
>>> would be
>>> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
>>> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
>>>
>>> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
>>> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I  
>>> don't
>>> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing.  
>>> However,
>>> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
>>> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type  
>>> of
>>> content).
>>>
>>> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for  
>>> the
>>> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
>>>
>>> Long live Ted Stevens,
>>>
>>> -Erik
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished  
>>>> in
>>>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government,  
>>>> has
>>>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government  
>>>> regulations
>>>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>>>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather  
>>>> than
>>>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me  
>>>> that
>>>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>>>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>>>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>>>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>>>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>>>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>>>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their  
>>>> paws off us.
>>>>
>>>> -Harry
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin  
>>>>> Cities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be  
>>>>> interested
>>>>> to know.
>>>>>
>>>>> ==>brian.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
>>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>>> erik at ekmitchell.com
>>> http://ekmitchell.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> Comcast effectively blocked content, using your logic, Erik.  This  
> issue
> is about access to the Internet, without providers inserting  
> themselves
> between you and the content.  Providers need to focus on transmission,
> not engage in selective censoring of what you and I want to see, hear,
> or communicate.  The FCC needs to, at this point, reassign the  
> Internet
> in order to limit the role of providers to that of transmission,  
> rather
> than engage in services preferences activities.  Think of the issue as
> one of: do we want the Internet to look like cable companies deciding
> what channels we receive for our Internet access fees?
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 15:32:24 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:32:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <1C14DBA8-E37A-41AF-B236-E6E39A49A156@me.com>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4C6D8C99.1090506@meltel.net>
	<1C14DBA8-E37A-41AF-B236-E6E39A49A156@me.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D94D8.7040502@meltel.net>

Ryan Coleman wrote:
> I'd be interested in investing time (money is not handy right now -- falling off Unemployment and getting my photo business LLC'd).
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>   
>> r j wrote:
>>     
>>> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things 
>>> that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the 
>>> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in 
>>> your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
>>> ? Mark Twain
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>       
>> rj: Hold onto that $500. Let's set up a meeting, and if we do it right, 
>> I think we can put a business plan together, and work up a grant writing 
>> strategy. I'm on a VA pension, so I can adjust my schedule to meet 
>> yours. It would seem there's enough technical expertise on the list to 
>> get a core group together to talk about it. Count me in, and I'll follow 
>> your lead.
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Ryan: I don't think there should be any concern about money, until we 
meet and see what resources we all have (Obama's got $7.2 billion 
waiting for proposals). If rj and you and Elvedin and I, along with 
anyone else agree on a date and time and location, we can get started.
Tom


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Aug 19 15:43:05 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:43:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>

On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community network.

 What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?

 Waaaiiit...

     Jima


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 15:41:38 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:41:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>
	<4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6D9702.1010606@meltel.net>

J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> While this is obviously a tender discussion and teetering on fallling 
> into a free market vs. Regulations flame war, I just want to make one 
> point with clearifications.
>
> When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in return? 
> I expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider 
> like cable TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want, 
> like a freeway. Some people would rather have a content provider, and 
> that is fine. Without regulations, both business models can exist 
> through the free market. With regulations, we will be shackled into 
> one method or another. With the free market, the next brilliant idea I 
> have, I can form it into a business model. With regulations, I will 
> need to conform my idea to the law.
> It all comes down to, if you do not like the way things are currently 
> working what choises do you have to fix it? With a free market, you 
> have the ability to start up your own business and drive the market, 
> or invest in someone who is working torwards your interests. With 
> regulations, you will need to change the law first and then work 
> towards driving the market. Which do you think is better for 
> innovation? Which do you think is better for personal choice?
> My personal opinion (so take it for what it is worth) is that the 
> govenment needs to stay out of it, and enforce the right of property 
> and trade as in the Carter phone decision.
>
> Regards,
> Simmons
>
> This message was sent from my android phone.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
J.A. Simmons:  You hit on a good point, looking back to the Carter Phone 
decision.  When the FCC announced it was going to reverse Bush 
administration, and reclassify the Internet to bring it under the 
telecommunications umbrella, all heck broke loose in the corporate 
cartel, screaming they can't do that.  That's what Net Neutrality issue 
is all about.  Corporate control or having to provide for choice by 
customers to do what they want with the airwaves they own, not the 
corporations.
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 15:45:56 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:45:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEIGDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEIGDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4C6D9804.2010903@meltel.net>

Chuck Cole wrote:
> TCLUG doesn't do business plans.  That requires being incorporated so a
> non-profit corp could be defined.  Here comes TC-WiMax Inc, and it's just
> another corporation filing papers, seeking licenses, and so on.  Just donate
> money: somebody will manage it!    :-)
>
> Chuck
>
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Tom Poe
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:57 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
>>
>>
>> r j wrote:
>>     
>>> I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
>>>       
>> community network.
>>     
>>> --
>>>
>>>       
>> rj: Hold onto that $500. Let's set up a meeting, and if we do it right,
>> I think we can put a business plan together, and work up a grant writing
>> strategy. I'm on a VA pension, so I can adjust my schedule to meet
>> yours. It would seem there's enough technical expertise on the list to
>> get a core group together to talk about it. Count me in, and I'll follow
>> your lead.
>> Tom
>>     
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Good points.  My thinking is, any project at any level needs a sound 
business plan.  Especially, if it can attract donors.  Obama has $7.2 
billion set aside for such proposals as a WiMaxx project.  I'd like to 
lay out a proposal along rj's idea, and see if that puppy flies.  But, 
informal project is good, too.  Count me in.
Tom


From swaite at sbn-services.com  Thu Aug 19 15:56:12 2010
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:56:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  OT: Linksys router
Message-ID: <1282251372.4c6d9a6caac6e@g3.sbn-services.com>

I am looking for an older Linksys BEFSR41 that would be hardware v2,
or something similar that would allow me to simply have it act as a
router and not a gateway. Before anyone suggests, I do not want to
setup some Linux router as that would require obviously use of a
computer. Space and simplicity are the key here. I simply want to go
from network A to network B and back. If someone has a similar device
that would work fine, as long as I can disable any gateway features. I
know the BEFSR41 v2 allows you to select either router or gateway.

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From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 19 16:04:51 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:04:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list]  WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
> [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Jima
> 
> On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
> > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX 
> community network.
> 
>  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
> 
>  Waaaiiit...
> 
>      Jima
> 

I think he sez: BTDT


Chuck


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 16:08:50 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:08:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LXyVrWc36ijVuLkyX-ibqfPRX5meaO8YtccPL@mail.gmail.com>

Harry-
I like that you brought up the FCC and the indency regulations. What people
forget is that cable is not regulated the same as broadcast media (except in
cases that are deemed obscene, though I don't know how they get away with
playboy channel then).
So while I cannot say the 7 dirty words on ABC, I can on Nickelodeon. But
that is against nick's branding/business model, and so doesn't. Self
regulation (I.e. free market) has provided what the market needs.
Everyone (falsly) believes that without regulation, hardcore porn/(insert
other concerns) will spread like wildfire, but all regulations do is define
the rules that they will try and bend until the customers finally giveup and
change the channel. The customer is always the final decision maker.
**ref: http://www.fcc.gov/eb/oip/FAQ.html

Customers can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down,
simply by spending their money somewhere else. ~Sam Walton

Vechicals needing seatbelts is an intersting regulation to debate. To sell
cars to the largest % of the population, they need to add seatbelts to every
car. Meanwhile, making wearing seatbelts a legal requirement is hypricitical
based on the fact that my motorcycle does not need seatbelts, and is more at
risk for everything that a car goes through (alot of drivers do not pay
attention to motorcycles). So the same people who demand that seatbelts need
to be worn at all times should also be fighting to abandon the use of
motorcycles, since there is no special requirements to drive a motorocycle
then a car. (Seperate licenses yes, but nothing extra needed between the
two.)
In fact, in most states that I know of (Texas, Oklahoma, California) will
allow an individual over the age of 12 to drive a motorcycle upto a certain
cc rating. Which qualifies it for driving on the freeway as long as it can
attain the minimum limit. (some states have added extra regulations on top
of the current laws to account for this obvious hyprocisy).

Regards,
Simmons
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 16:15:31 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:15:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=LXyVrWc36ijVuLkyX-ibqfPRX5meaO8YtccPL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=LXyVrWc36ijVuLkyX-ibqfPRX5meaO8YtccPL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC7E510E-6269-4CA1-A1E1-AE590A31C008@me.com>

Playboy channel, and those others similar, are part of the pay for extras, not part of "standard package" deals.

That is how.


On Aug 19, 2010, at 4:08 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> Harry-
> I like that you brought up the FCC and the indency regulations. What people forget is that cable is not regulated the same as broadcast media (except in cases that are deemed obscene, though I don't know how they get away with playboy channel then). 
> So while I cannot say the 7 dirty words on ABC, I can on Nickelodeon. But that is against nick's branding/business model, and so doesn't. Self regulation (I.e. free market) has provided what the market needs.
> Everyone (falsly) believes that without regulation, hardcore porn/(insert other concerns) will spread like wildfire, but all regulations do is define the rules that they will try and bend until the customers finally giveup and change the channel. The customer is always the final decision maker.
> **ref: http://www.fcc.gov/eb/oip/FAQ.html
>  
> Customers can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending their money somewhere else. ~Sam Walton
>  
> Vechicals needing seatbelts is an intersting regulation to debate. To sell cars to the largest % of the population, they need to add seatbelts to every car. Meanwhile, making wearing seatbelts a legal requirement is hypricitical based on the fact that my motorcycle does not need seatbelts, and is more at risk for everything that a car goes through (alot of drivers do not pay attention to motorcycles). So the same people who demand that seatbelts need to be worn at all times should also be fighting to abandon the use of motorcycles, since there is no special requirements to drive a motorocycle then a car. (Seperate licenses yes, but nothing extra needed between the two.)
> In fact, in most states that I know of (Texas, Oklahoma, California) will allow an individual over the age of 12 to drive a motorcycle upto a certain cc rating. Which qualifies it for driving on the freeway as long as it can attain the minimum limit. (some states have added extra regulations on top of the current laws to account for this obvious hyprocisy).
>  
> Regards,
> Simmons
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From hpenner at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:17:30 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:17:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality OT(off topic)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191500390.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191500390.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Xc_eUT2GVCnLOz5=99ELYGET18AUhrBHvv0Cv@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, r j wrote:
>
> > Everything shared openly with the masses eventually has so many laws
> > and rules attached to it it becomes useless or ineffective.
>
> Television?  Telephone?  Cell phones?  Are they not working?  You might
> not like everything about how thye work, but all of them are working
> better now than they ever did.
>
> Therefore, I think you are completely wrong.
>
> Mike
>

I think his point is not that they don't work -- they do, better than ever
as you point out -- but that they're kind of stagnant because the laws and
rules attached to them don't let them evolve much.  Where's my web/TV
integration?  Why can't I tell my TV to show me where all my family members'
phones are on a GPS map?  Why can't I have a device on my phone line that
works with my cell phone to seamlessly switch between cell and land line as
I deem appropriate?  Probably stupid examples because I'm going off the top
of my head, but the point is that all of this stuff is technologically
possible but has to jump through too many hoops to be feasibly offered to
the public.  Sure, some of it is single-industry providers wanting to
protect their turf or whatever, but then why doesn't a startup that doesn't
have that baggage jump in to fill the gap?  The rules (which often are
constructed with the help of big-corp lobbyists to make it difficult for new
entrants to jump into a regulated market) often make something like that
very hard, if not impossible.  I think that's more along the lines of what
Ron meant, and why a technology that could be used to bypass regs,
providers, and everything else standing in the way of innovation (i.e. his
wimax scenario) is so attractive.  It's certainly attractive to me, anyway!

-Harry
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 16:28:43 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:28:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <FC7E510E-6269-4CA1-A1E1-AE590A31C008@me.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=LXyVrWc36ijVuLkyX-ibqfPRX5meaO8YtccPL@mail.gmail.com>
	<FC7E510E-6269-4CA1-A1E1-AE590A31C008@me.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=2QbKrP=_C=eriEFLGmvd65ghSbASOB7q3_yzi@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but the FCC specifically states.


> the prohibition against obscene programming applies to subscription
> programming services at all times.
>
The Playboy channel is still a subscription programming service and by their
own words, falls within their "regulation" against obscene programming.
Might be a loophole for the PPV, since that is a single shot purchase and
not a subscription per say. More of a curiosity then an actual debate point.

Simmons
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 16:33:50 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:33:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>

I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype
WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class that I am starting
this semester has the students start a business with a sizable grant from
the U of M. I can easily see this as a decent contender, not to mention an
actually viable business model.
Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?

Simmons

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
> > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Jima
> >
> > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
> > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
> > community network.
> >
> >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
> >
> >  Waaaiiit...
> >
> >      Jima
> >
>
> I think he sez: BTDT
>
>
> Chuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 16:38:13 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:38:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1137C61A-35CA-465E-8ECE-66F40A115657@me.com>

If by public you mean free... It's not very public; you still have to pay for it except in a few specific locations around the entire city.

But it is discounted. 

On Aug 19, 2010, at 4:33 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class that I am starting this semester has the students start a business with a sizable grant from the U of M. I can easily see this as a decent contender, not to mention an actually viable business model.
> Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?
>  
> Simmons
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
> > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Jima
> >
> > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
> > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
> > community network.
> >
> >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
> >
> >  Waaaiiit...
> >
> >      Jima
> >
> 
> I think he sez: BTDT
> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:40:07 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:40:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikkiFMDgjq8uxSfegj_Df0fRciScGmz-6vE9p1g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Harry,
You assert that all regulation is designed to restrict choices.  But, is
that really true?  Some regulation is designed to guarantee we have choices
because without choice "free markets" devolve into abusive monopolies.

I did ask for examples, but I wasn't clear enough.  I wanted examples
related to the topic of Net Neutrality that backed your position of
reticence with respect to endorsing regulation enforcing net neutrality.

*your reaction, for instance, was too quick to take the time to give
examples or demonstrate any in-depth knowledge of the issue, which is
exactly what you criticized me for -- rather than thinking it through.*

I did criticize you, but here's the deal.  You expressed an opinion and
position first, but it was practically content-free.  You framed your
position with generalizations, not facts or chains of logic based on the
issue of net neutrality at all.  You were went straight to "free
marketeering/anti-regulation" and didn't even suggest as to why that is
relevant.  I wasn't flaming your position, I was challenging you to give me
something other than rhetoric to consider and think about in the context of
Net Neutrality.  I'm still waiting.  Give me more to think about and
consider and I'll think about it.

If you're just afraid of big-government/regulation on principle - nothing
less and nothing more - okay then.  I get it.

My understanding of Net Neutrality is that it preserves the separation of
concerns between bandwidth providers and content providers.  It means
everyone's traffic between the content provider and my box is treated
fairly, and that the service I'm consuming is not trumped by traffic from
content providers with cozy deals with my bandwidth provider that I may not
even be aware of.  It also means that my bandwidth provider can't
de-prioritize traffic from a competitor to one of their own services and
force me to be vendor locked.  That is to say - net neutrality preserves
choice by preventing the people in control of distribution from deciding for
me what my choices are going to be.

Which is to say, I really don't understand the free-market/anti-regulation
objection to net-neutrality.  Bandwidth is a commodity.  Bandwidth providers
are utilities.  What is the basis of your objection to net-neutrality other
than general paranoia and/or dogma?  That is what I was looking for (and
expecting) from your first post. :)

-Rob

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> Come on, Rob, let's keep things civil.  We can disagree without calling
> each other trolls.  I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it
> may seem like a small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of
> governmental intervention as anything else.
>
> Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us safe, and
> some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our choices, because
> that's what regulations are designed to DO.  The market is free-for-all that
> gives us choices.  Regulation restricts providers of goods or services from
> offering us some of those choices because we (loosely defined) think those
> choices are bad enough that nobody should be allowed to make them.
>
> You asked for examples:  New vehicles are required to have seat belts in
> order to be sold to the public and be allowed on the roads.  Sounds like a
> reasonable regulation to me.  On the other hand, we have regulations on
> telecomm companies that make them go through all kinds of crazy govt
> approvals and rigid pricing structures that when I worked in the telecomm
> industry 11 years ago some smaller telcos would tell me that they couldn't
> afford to offer DSL to their customers because they could only lose money on
> it (not because customers wouldn't pay, but because they weren't allowed to
> charge enough to recoup their costs).  That may have changed by now, but I
> doubt it since I have to use 3G at home because it's 2010 and Sprint still
> hasn't put in a DSLAM in my area.  Specific to the FCC, we've got the
> restriction on obscenity on radio and TV.  I personally think that's a good
> reg (I have kids), but I know people who think we'd have better content if
> we allowed freer speech on the airwaves.
>
> Nobody here is saying all regulation is bad.  I'm saying it's a big clumsy
> weapon that we should think very carefully about before using.  Some people
> seem to react quickly to the issue -- your reaction, for instance, was too
> quick to take the time to give examples or demonstrate any in-depth
> knowledge of the issue, which is exactly what you criticized me for --
> rather than thinking it through.
>
> If regulation is the answer, so be it, but as a fellow internet user who
> will have to live with those regulations for a long time -- because most
> regulations, no matter how poorly written, are hard to change or undo (think
> DMCA) -- I'm asking you to think it through instead of calling people names.
>
> -Harry
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>>
>>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>>
>>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off
>>> us.
>>>
>>> -Harry
>>>
>>>
>> Harry,
>>
>> How about instead of making sweeping generalizations you make
>> a case for your position with supporting arguments.  Regulation
>> is no less a double-edged sword than an absence of regulation.
>> How does net-neutrality regulation harm us?  How does the
>> absence of net-neutrality regulation help us?  Do you even
>> properly understand the topic you are debating, and do you know
>> for a fact the federal government mostly left the internet alone
>> after funding its creation and development, or does it just seem
>> that way to you for other reasons?
>>
>> I don't think you should apologize for your comments sounding
>> trollish.  I think you should apologize for making trollish comments.
>>
>> I can already see this thread spinning away into the land of
>> rhetoric.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From j at packetgod.com  Thu Aug 19 16:36:01 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:36:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Linksys router
In-Reply-To: <1282251372.4c6d9a6caac6e@g3.sbn-services.com>
References: <1282251372.4c6d9a6caac6e@g3.sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinH5_=zb1tuphs7sZnZ7AjpggS6-DffV5-KjDvy@mail.gmail.com>

Actually I do this all the time with the WRT ones (I know you don't need the
wireless but you don't need to turn it on) and using DD-WRT.  Works like a
charm, you can setup separate VLANs and group your ports how you want.  Not
amazing performance but what did you want for 20$?  You can go up to DD-WRT
and look in their supported router DB to see if there are any non-wireless
systems supported (BEFSR41 is not) or just make do with one with wireless.

Plus they are as common as dirt:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/sys/1905073315.html (I'm sure if you
said 20$ cash they would take it :) )

--j

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:

> I am looking for an older Linksys BEFSR41 that would be hardware v2, or
> something similar that would allow me to simply have it act as a router and
> not a gateway. Before anyone suggests, I do not want to setup some Linux
> router as that would require obviously use of a computer. Space and
> simplicity are the key here. I simply want to go from network A to network B
> and back. If someone has a similar device that would work fine, as long as I
> can disable any gateway features. I know the BEFSR41 v2 allows you to select
> either router or gateway.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:48:32 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:48:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it may seem like a 
> small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of 
> governmental intervention as anything else.

What are the "basic laws of governmental intervention?"  You don't seem 
like much of an expert to me, but maybe you can refer me to a text book on 
this subject.  Is this something that all experts in econ/poli-sci agree 
on or is this just an idea that you are trying to promote in opposition to 
the views of many experts?


> Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us safe, 
> and some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our choices, 
> because that's what regulations are designed to DO.

If a government regulation prevents a corporation from poisoning your 
drinking water and crippling you or killing your children, you actually 
end up with more choices than you would have had if there had been no 
regulation.

A regulation restricts some entity from doing something, but it might 
restrict someone from limiting your choices (e.g., by killing you or 
poisoning your land).

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:57:09 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:57:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
In-Reply-To: <6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191650400.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Jeremy wrote:

> When ssh/ssl had a hole a couple years ago that rendered it ineffective 
> (200k possible keys), that alone meant almost everyone was vulnerable. 
> And it was caused by just a simple programming mistake.

I wonder when it was first discovered.  I mean, there are probably many 
governments with computer scientists working their butts off to discover 
things like this that give them an advantage.  Once they find it, they 
don't tell anyone.

Once about 10 years ago I was a few minutes late to teach a class at 
Mizzou.  I apologized to the students telling them that Chinese "hackers" 
had broken into my computer and I was cleaning it up.  They didn't seem to 
believe my excuse, but it was quite true.  They don't realize that chinese 
hackers tried to break into their computers too, but they didn't happen to 
have the security hole and they had no way to detect the attempt on their 
port.  I think it was ingreslock on Solaris that time.  That was the last 
time I failed to patch my system very quickly and I've had 10 years with 
no cracks, as far as I can tell.


> Considering the power of bot nets, if they aren't run by governments, or 
> at least infiltrated by govts, then it is alsmost negligence.

I think they are.  Something like 90% of our computers have a huge 
backdoor open to Microsoft to change the system at will.  Am I the only 
one who doesn't like that?

Mike


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 17:00:21 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:00:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
In-Reply-To: <6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikqWS0EhZ1-y0_qhREnA4BdnJMb4zzvBOMYqbgR@mail.gmail.com>

I will agree that we have a huge problem. As Jeremy correctly stated, we are
relying on years of shoddy programming skills that have been piled upon over
2 decades, and our current batch of programmers are not any more promising.
Talking with th UofM Supercomputer admin, they are having a serious problem
finding qualified programmers for their systems (C/Fortran/Multiprocessor).
Not many colleges/universities are teaching proper programming skills, C
programming, and the sort. Pile upon this the issue of the crappy IT
certification industry giving the false sense of accomplishment and skill,
and we are head over heels in a pile of excrement.

The real question to ask: what are you going to do to fix it?

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 09:47, Jeremy <jeremy at lizakowski.com> wrote:

>
> I think it's fascinating.  Software complexity had exceeded our
> ability to manage it.  Sins of software makers have piled ontop each
> other and become part of the foundation.  And then there's just old
> fashioned mistakes.
>
> Our software is swiss cheese.  Every time I pull a dozen 'security
> updates', I realize there were a dozen holes yesterday.  And there
> will be a dozen holes tomorrow.
>
> When ssh/ssl had a hole a couple years ago that rendered it
> ineffective (200k possible keys), that alone meant almost everyone was
> vulnerable.  And it was caused by just a simple programming mistake.
>
> I worked on FAA-certified aviation software for a bit, and that's an
> example of how you write software to be secure.  But it's also crazy
> expensive.  Each if-statement and for-loop has to have a test case.
> The tester is independant from the coder.
>
> The big computer virus bot networks?  I doubt they are ran by a
> swedish tennager from his parents basement.  If an IT admin is
> challenged running a network with 100 desktops, all running the same
> software, then how many admins does it take to rum a decentralized
> network of 10,000,000 nodes in a hostile environment, using custom
> software, and across diverse platforms?
>
> Considering the power of bot nets, if they aren't run by governments,
> or at least infiltrated by govts, then it is alsmost negligence.
>
> The plus side:  Since robots are now being used in warfare, and
> carrying live ammo, I'm ok with software being imperfect.  That will
> be how we defeat skynet :)
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod.
> ...because my other device is a BB Storm.
>
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > An 8-minute segment:
> >
> > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec10/cybersec_08-10.html
> >
> > You can watch it or read the transcript.  What do you think?  I
> > think we
> > have a problem that we can fix, but only if we take it seriously and
> > are
> > willing to work on it.  I'm not sure that we're up to it right now.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 17:06:12 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:06:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in return? I 
> expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider like 
> cable TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want, like a 
> freeway. Some people would rather have a content provider, and that is 
> fine. Without regulations, both business models can exist through the 
> free market.

Not necessarily.  With a free market, you get what you get.  There are no 
guarantees.

For example, people used to say that a free market would solve the problem 
of racism because companies that refused to hire people just because they 
were black would not compete as effectively as companies that based hiring 
decisions on ability alone.  It did not work that way.  Companies avoided 
hiring high-ability black workers for a number of reasons (e.g., most of 
our customers are probably racists who won't want to work with a black 
sales rep).  It was necessary for the government to force companies to 
eliminate racial bias in hiring.  Government regulation was able to fix 
what a free market could not fix.

Yes, the regulation was a restriction on freedom -- the freedom of 
companies to hire an all-white work force, or the freedom of white workers 
not to associate with black people -- but the same regulation enhanced the 
freedom and opportunity of the black workers.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 17:16:29 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:16:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] PBS NewsHour on cybersecurity and cyberwar
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikqWS0EhZ1-y0_qhREnA4BdnJMb4zzvBOMYqbgR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160028480.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<6D5D1819-1006-4C6C-81D8-D5D062B4DBFE@lizakowski.com>
	<AANLkTikqWS0EhZ1-y0_qhREnA4BdnJMb4zzvBOMYqbgR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191713210.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> Talking with th UofM Supercomputer admin, they are having a serious 
> problem finding qualified programmers for their systems 
> (C/Fortran/Multiprocessor).

I've noticed that they have been hiring mostly foreign-born ESL people. 
Maybe they can't pay enough to compete with industry, but if they can 
offer an H-1B visa and a track to permanent residency, that is worth a lot 
to someone who wants to move to the USA.

Mike


From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 17:25:43 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:25:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
Message-ID: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>

I'm thinking of a construct that is all knowing, never wrong, and smarter
than the human beings who arguably created it.  I'm thinking of something
that can't be seen, smelled, touched, or heard.  I'm thinking of something
that people believe exists with all of their hearts.  I'm thinking of
something that many people argue does not exist.  I'm thinking of something
that has the power to save us all, or condemn us to eternal strife.  I'm
thinking of something that is used as a basis to start wars.  I'm thinking
of something that is worshiped on a daily basis.


.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.

I'm thinking of a free market.

What - you thought I was talking about God?  Is the fact you can't tell the
difference a red flag to anyone but me?

Just curious.

-Rob (Lamenting the fact the feds ruled his asbestos underwear was dangerous
to his health and thus illegal, as he thinks he's going to need it.)
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 17:31:45 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:31:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>

A history professor I had loved to tell the story of his cousin who owned a
piggly-wiggly in a good-ol' boy Alabama town during the civil rights
movement. His cousin refused to high a single black (do not know of any
other minorities). Well, since the majority of his clientele was black, they
refused to shop at his store. He eventually had to bend to the demands of
the public.
The same for the bus boycott that was sparked by Rosa Parks. There are
plenty of stories of this sort, but those are just the two that I remember
off the top of my head. This shows the free market fixing its own issues,
but of course it was slow. Too slow considering our society and the stance
of individual rights and justice. The biggest problem with the civil rights
era was that the judicial system was failing at protecting the rights of
minorities, which is one of its primary duties. But eventually the courts
got it right, and the congress and states passed the applicable amendments
giving the courts more fodder against rasism.

I will disagree with your statement that with a free market, you get what
you get. I would say that with a free market, you get what is offered. You
can either negotiate for what you want, look for another company that is
offering what you are after, or build your own company that does what you
are looking to do (obvious market segment that is being ignored). Add
regulations to that, and now you are tying the hands of any entrepreneur who
is trying to provide a service to others.
On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 17:06, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> > When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in return? I
> > expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider like
> > cable TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want, like a
> > freeway. Some people would rather have a content provider, and that is
> > fine. Without regulations, both business models can exist through the
> > free market.
>
> Not necessarily.  With a free market, you get what you get.  There are no
> guarantees.
>
> For example, people used to say that a free market would solve the problem
> of racism because companies that refused to hire people just because they
> were black would not compete as effectively as companies that based hiring
> decisions on ability alone.  It did not work that way.  Companies avoided
> hiring high-ability black workers for a number of reasons (e.g., most of
> our customers are probably racists who won't want to work with a black
> sales rep).  It was necessary for the government to force companies to
> eliminate racial bias in hiring.  Government regulation was able to fix
> what a free market could not fix.
>
> Yes, the regulation was a restriction on freedom -- the freedom of
> companies to hire an all-white work force, or the freedom of white workers
> not to associate with black people -- but the same regulation enhanced the
> freedom and opportunity of the black workers.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Thu Aug 19 18:24:24 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:24:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>

We first will have to fix a few of your initial assumptions.

The construct is not all knowning, does make mistakes but can be self
correcting. It cannot be smarter then anything since it is not an actual
entity capable of thinking. I will agree that it can't be smelled, touched,
or heard, but neither can the concept of numbers. There are those that have
trust and those that do not have trust in the construct. I will agree that
it can start wars, just like it can spark exploration, drive the founding of
a new colony that will then become the seed for a great superpower. More
over, I will add that this concept is the closest thing to freedom that any
known economic system can provide.

Also, you can continue to enjoy your asbestos underware as long as you
are aware of their hazards, and your wearing them does not infringe upon the
health of others without their knowledge. They are not illegal anymore then
the chemical cleaners under your sink are illegal. All the abestos
litigation is because the employers and/or manufactures did not inform the
affected parties as to the hazards of the material or their use within .



On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 17:25, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm thinking of a construct that is all knowing, never wrong, and smarter
> than the human beings who arguably created it.  I'm thinking of something
> that can't be seen, smelled, touched, or heard.  I'm thinking of something
> that people believe exists with all of their hearts.  I'm thinking of
> something that many people argue does not exist.  I'm thinking of something
> that has the power to save us all, or condemn us to eternal strife.  I'm
> thinking of something that is used as a basis to start wars.  I'm thinking
> of something that is worshiped on a daily basis.
>
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ..
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> ..
> .
> .
>
> I'm thinking of a free market.
>
> What - you thought I was talking about God?  Is the fact you can't tell the
> difference a red flag to anyone but me?
>
> Just curious.
>
> -Rob (Lamenting the fact the feds ruled his asbestos underwear was
> dangerous to his health and thus illegal, as he thinks he's going to need
> it.)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 18:34:56 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:34:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> A history professor I had loved to tell the story of his cousin who 
> owned a piggly-wiggly in a good-ol' boy Alabama town during the civil 
> rights movement. His cousin refused to high a single black (do not know 
> of any other minorities). Well, since the majority of his clientele was 
> black, they refused to shop at his store. He eventually had to bend to 
> the demands of the public.

Oh, OK, so the free market worked to stop a racist employer from refusing 
to hire black workers, but only in a place with a majority of black 
customers who had to organize to stop him.  What happened in places where 
the majority was black but there were no other grocery stores.  What about 
places where the majority was white and the minority was black.  I have to 
say that a government intervention seems like the right thing -- it gets 
jobs for the black people, jobs that they deserve, and it spares the local 
black population from the hassles of having to organize a boycott to get 
what should have been theirs in the first place: freedom from racial 
discrimination in hiring.

Do you really think your story is a good argument for a free market in 
hiring that allows for racist discrimination?


> The same for the bus boycott that was sparked by Rosa Parks.

Right, it's good that poor black people have to suffer such humiliations 
and hassles to get a seat in the front half of the bus.  But what if 
blacks were 5% of the riding population and the local whites preferred 
that the black riders have to sing and tap dance for them while riding? 
It would be OK for the bus company to require that they do so, right? 
I'm sure you'll say yes, because that's what a free market is all about. 
Suppose the boycott didn't work because they could do without the 5% rider 
share in order to please their white customers.  Now the blacks either 
dance or walk.  Sounds bad, but I'll bet the free market has a cure .... 
yes, it's that another bus company will spring into existence to give 
rides to blacks.  But whites won't use the new buses, so they can only 
serve 5% of the people and have to run way less often.  Freedom in action. 
So it all works out -- the black people in a majority-white local dealing 
with racism and a racist bus company have to live with second-rate busing. 
Too Friggin' Bad.  Don't cry to me -- it's FREEDOM!  Let's keep government 
out of it.  Government is too restrictive.


> I will disagree with your statement that with a free market, you get 
> what you get. I would say that with a free market, you get what is 
> offered. You can either negotiate for what you want, look for another 
> company that is offering what you are after, or build your own company 
> that does what you are looking to do (obvious market segment that is 
> being ignored). Add regulations to that, and now you are tying the hands 
> of any entrepreneur who is trying to provide a service to others.

When you say "add regulations to that," what do you have in mind?  I'm 
unaware of rules preventing people from starting businesses that provide 
services.

Mike


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 18:54:47 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:54:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=NV96y3swW0XqfTt81s+uoZBWHW7Bi-YGdsnuu@mail.gmail.com>

Much of this discussion actually looks at things somewhat backward,
IMO.  The government would actually be the anti-regulation force here,
and the ISPs the regulators.

Consider this:

One option is to have a free-flowing Internet where everything is
equal, and just allowed to happen.  The "Information Superhighway"
would be allowed to be a "free market" of ideas and content.

The other option is to have business executives decide they want to
reward some of that traffic and punish others, or favor some customers
over others, or charge extra fees for certain uses while subsidizing
others.  No content is guaranteed passage, but rather must meet the
particular rules set forth for it.

Which one of those sounds like regulation to you?  Clearly it is the
latter, which is the one done by ISPs, dictating which traffic will be
"special" and which will be hindered.  The former is not regulation by
the government, but a mandate that regulation must not be done by
corporations.

The first case, with free flow of information, is the hands-off
approach that allowed the Internet to flourish.  The difference is
that now the corporations have the technology to put a stop to that,
so people are asking the government to intervene in order to protect
the integrity of the Internet's nature as it has been from the
beginning.

 - Tony Yarusso


From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 19 18:57:55 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:57:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <1137C61A-35CA-465E-8ECE-66F40A115657@me.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMEILDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones being
installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.

Chuck
  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
  Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:38 PM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


  If by public you mean free... It's not very public; you still have to pay for it except in a few specific locations around the
entire city.


  But it is discounted.


  On Aug 19, 2010, at 4:33 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:


    I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class
that I am starting this semester has the students start a business with a sizable grant from the U of M. I can easily see this as a
decent contender, not to mention an actually viable business model.
    Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?

    Simmons


    On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:



      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
      > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Jima
      >
      > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
      > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
      > community network.
      >
      >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
      >
      >  Waaaiiit...
      >
      >      Jima
      >


      I think he sez: BTDT


      Chuck


      _______________________________________________
      TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
      tclug-list at mn-linux.org
      http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 19:04:42 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:04:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMEILDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMEILDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <744A74A2-FB70-4AB1-833E-7F5D938CB9B7@me.com>

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832

http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/

http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010

On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:

> How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones being installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.
>  
> Chuck
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:38 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
> 
> If by public you mean free... It's not very public; you still have to pay for it except in a few specific locations around the entire city.
> 
> But it is discounted. 
> 
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 4:33 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> 
>> I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class that I am starting this semester has the students start a business with a sizable grant from the U of M. I can easily see this as a decent contender, not to mention an actually viable business model.
>> Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?
>>  
>> Simmons
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
>> > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org]On Behalf Of Jima
>> >
>> > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
>> > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
>> > community network.
>> >
>> >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
>> >
>> >  Waaaiiit...
>> >
>> >      Jima
>> >
>> 
>> I think he sez: BTDT
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From jeremy at jskier.com  Thu Aug 19 19:27:51 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:27:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>

Well, in a free market, the 5% minority would probably start their own
bus or transit service. And, a few majority folk might even want in on
that because there is a small market of the minority wanting a better
service and a small market of the majority who want a bus service that
doesn't make the minority do stupid things. The free market isn't
perfect, but most people will take the slow moving iron fist over
excessive government intervention.

A more recent example, Minneapolis used to have only a handful of
taxis companies per city code- until one person challenged and
succeeded in overturning this regulatory restriction that was intended
to protect consumers but in modern times was just abused by a
monopolistic group of companies for their own financial gain.

It goes both ways, free market and government regulation can be
excessive or lacking at times depending on the issue at hand. Honestly
I hate both sides almost equally with a slight inclination toward the
free market.

Jeremy MountainJohnson
jeremy at jskier.com



On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> > A history professor I had loved to tell the story of his cousin who
> > owned a piggly-wiggly in a good-ol' boy Alabama town during the civil
> > rights movement. His cousin refused to high a single black (do not know
> > of any other minorities). Well, since the majority of his clientele was
> > black, they refused to shop at his store. He eventually had to bend to
> > the demands of the public.
>
> Oh, OK, so the free market worked to stop a racist employer from refusing
> to hire black workers, but only in a place with a majority of black
> customers who had to organize to stop him. ?What happened in places where
> the majority was black but there were no other grocery stores. ?What about
> places where the majority was white and the minority was black. ?I have to
> say that a government intervention seems like the right thing -- it gets
> jobs for the black people, jobs that they deserve, and it spares the local
> black population from the hassles of having to organize a boycott to get
> what should have been theirs in the first place: freedom from racial
> discrimination in hiring.
>
> Do you really think your story is a good argument for a free market in
> hiring that allows for racist discrimination?
>
>
> > The same for the bus boycott that was sparked by Rosa Parks.
>
> Right, it's good that poor black people have to suffer such humiliations
> and hassles to get a seat in the front half of the bus. ?But what if
> blacks were 5% of the riding population and the local whites preferred
> that the black riders have to sing and tap dance for them while riding?
> It would be OK for the bus company to require that they do so, right?
> I'm sure you'll say yes, because that's what a free market is all about.
> Suppose the boycott didn't work because they could do without the 5% rider
> share in order to please their white customers. ?Now the blacks either
> dance or walk. ?Sounds bad, but I'll bet the free market has a cure ....
> yes, it's that another bus company will spring into existence to give
> rides to blacks. ?But whites won't use the new buses, so they can only
> serve 5% of the people and have to run way less often. ?Freedom in action.
> So it all works out -- the black people in a majority-white local dealing
> with racism and a racist bus company have to live with second-rate busing.
> Too Friggin' Bad. ?Don't cry to me -- it's FREEDOM! ?Let's keep government
> out of it. ?Government is too restrictive.
>
>
> > I will disagree with your statement that with a free market, you get
> > what you get. I would say that with a free market, you get what is
> > offered. You can either negotiate for what you want, look for another
> > company that is offering what you are after, or build your own company
> > that does what you are looking to do (obvious market segment that is
> > being ignored). Add regulations to that, and now you are tying the hands
> > of any entrepreneur who is trying to provide a service to others.
>
> When you say "add regulations to that," what do you have in mind? ?I'm
> unaware of rules preventing people from starting businesses that provide
> services.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 19:39:21 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:39:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11EFB2D8-0BEB-4206-B151-942183C0ED19@me.com>

Outdated regulation, is what you're saying? There is *NO* regulation right now, not officially.

I think adding it would most likely benefit, but also could require that each municipality with 2 or fewer cable internet options be made to have more. Bring back Time Warner in Minneapolis, and add Cox, ATTBI and more. I say bring it. SATT companies are the only ones doing well here with competition right now. Even phone companies have been vanishing of late thanks to qwest and digital competition.

On Aug 19, 2010, at 7:27 PM, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> Well, in a free market, the 5% minority would probably start their own
> bus or transit service. And, a few majority folk might even want in on
> that because there is a small market of the minority wanting a better
> service and a small market of the majority who want a bus service that
> doesn't make the minority do stupid things. The free market isn't
> perfect, but most people will take the slow moving iron fist over
> excessive government intervention.
> 
> A more recent example, Minneapolis used to have only a handful of
> taxis companies per city code- until one person challenged and
> succeeded in overturning this regulatory restriction that was intended
> to protect consumers but in modern times was just abused by a
> monopolistic group of companies for their own financial gain.
> 
> It goes both ways, free market and government regulation can be
> excessive or lacking at times depending on the issue at hand. Honestly
> I hate both sides almost equally with a slight inclination toward the
> free market.
> 
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> jeremy at jskier.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>> 
>>> A history professor I had loved to tell the story of his cousin who
>>> owned a piggly-wiggly in a good-ol' boy Alabama town during the civil
>>> rights movement. His cousin refused to high a single black (do not know
>>> of any other minorities). Well, since the majority of his clientele was
>>> black, they refused to shop at his store. He eventually had to bend to
>>> the demands of the public.
>> 
>> Oh, OK, so the free market worked to stop a racist employer from refusing
>> to hire black workers, but only in a place with a majority of black
>> customers who had to organize to stop him.  What happened in places where
>> the majority was black but there were no other grocery stores.  What about
>> places where the majority was white and the minority was black.  I have to
>> say that a government intervention seems like the right thing -- it gets
>> jobs for the black people, jobs that they deserve, and it spares the local
>> black population from the hassles of having to organize a boycott to get
>> what should have been theirs in the first place: freedom from racial
>> discrimination in hiring.
>> 
>> Do you really think your story is a good argument for a free market in
>> hiring that allows for racist discrimination?
>> 
>> 
>>> The same for the bus boycott that was sparked by Rosa Parks.
>> 
>> Right, it's good that poor black people have to suffer such humiliations
>> and hassles to get a seat in the front half of the bus.  But what if
>> blacks were 5% of the riding population and the local whites preferred
>> that the black riders have to sing and tap dance for them while riding?
>> It would be OK for the bus company to require that they do so, right?
>> I'm sure you'll say yes, because that's what a free market is all about.
>> Suppose the boycott didn't work because they could do without the 5% rider
>> share in order to please their white customers.  Now the blacks either
>> dance or walk.  Sounds bad, but I'll bet the free market has a cure ....
>> yes, it's that another bus company will spring into existence to give
>> rides to blacks.  But whites won't use the new buses, so they can only
>> serve 5% of the people and have to run way less often.  Freedom in action.
>> So it all works out -- the black people in a majority-white local dealing
>> with racism and a racist bus company have to live with second-rate busing.
>> Too Friggin' Bad.  Don't cry to me -- it's FREEDOM!  Let's keep government
>> out of it.  Government is too restrictive.
>> 
>> 
>>> I will disagree with your statement that with a free market, you get
>>> what you get. I would say that with a free market, you get what is
>>> offered. You can either negotiate for what you want, look for another
>>> company that is offering what you are after, or build your own company
>>> that does what you are looking to do (obvious market segment that is
>>> being ignored). Add regulations to that, and now you are tying the hands
>>> of any entrepreneur who is trying to provide a service to others.
>> 
>> When you say "add regulations to that," what do you have in mind?  I'm
>> unaware of rules preventing people from starting businesses that provide
>> services.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 20:13:34 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:13:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <11EFB2D8-0BEB-4206-B151-942183C0ED19@me.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>
	<11EFB2D8-0BEB-4206-B151-942183C0ED19@me.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=vDu=JUCfb+atsG3_K7owzpXXagSFhd3=K9E32@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> Outdated regulation, is what you're saying? There is *NO* regulation right now, not officially.

Just to clarify, there are regulations on the Internet, just not on
net neutrality.  Which I'm sure is what you meant given the context,
but for others reading.

> I think adding it would most likely benefit, but also could require that each municipality with 2 or fewer cable internet options be made to have more. Bring back Time Warner in Minneapolis, and add Cox, ATTBI and more. I say bring it. SATT companies are the only ones doing well here with competition right now. Even phone companies have been vanishing of late thanks to qwest and digital competition.

Wait, there are places that still have something halfway resembling
competition?  Huh.  Here in Shoreview we have one cable provider
(Comcast) and one DSL provider (Qwest) - the only competition is
whether you want cable or DSL...

 - Tony


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 20:13:28 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:13:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
Message-ID: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>

I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have owned a
television. I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would
say the telephone is long dead as well. With convergent technologies your
cell phone is a computer and your phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in
the Microwave range and your cell phone is a microwave transmitter.
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 19 20:27:46 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:27:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018CA9E2-89F3-4C3E-B86A-02DA20587C86@me.com>

We can throw a dictionary in there, too. And keeping subjects together for threading.


On Aug 19, 2010, at 8:13 PM, r j wrote:

> I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have owned a television. I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would say the telephone is long dead as well. With convergent technologies your cell phone is a computer and your phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your cell phone is a microwave transmitter. 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From j at packetgod.com  Thu Aug 19 20:47:09 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:47:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin7eknn4ZxDo4t4zoYcmdcHaDZecsOW2RGqjpT0@mail.gmail.com>

I agree, but all I can say is that my cell phone does a horrible job of
microwaving my popcorn.

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:13 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have owned a
> television. I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would
> say the telephone is long dead as well. With convergent technologies your
> cell phone is a computer and your phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in
> the Microwave range and your cell phone is a microwave transmitter.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 20:48:02 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:48:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMAX
Message-ID: <AANLkTimfjZgOeoAwZCbOuXHhQ_OkU0xGqhpgcGQ1SRGx@mail.gmail.com>

I will read the following book next week. If you would like to meet to
discuss Wimax networking I would be happy to talk to you.

Mobile Broadcasting with WiMAX: Principles, Technology, and Applications
(Focal Press Media Technology Professional Series) [Paperback]
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From j at packetgod.com  Thu Aug 19 22:25:16 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:25:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <4C6D85B1.1080800@umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6D85B1.1080800@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimS4W-2BXLGGS7UbZT445NkNvgjmtfVmZE7f6EU@mail.gmail.com>

Got Spectrum?

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu> wrote:

> On 8/19/2010 2:23 PM, r j wrote:
> > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX community
> network.
> >
> > --
> > ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
> > that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the
> > bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in
> > your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
> > ? Mark Twain
> >
> How much does a transmitter cost?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 22:43:16 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:43:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMAX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimfjZgOeoAwZCbOuXHhQ_OkU0xGqhpgcGQ1SRGx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimfjZgOeoAwZCbOuXHhQ_OkU0xGqhpgcGQ1SRGx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6DF9D4.6050101@meltel.net>

r j wrote:
>
>
>   I will read the following book next week. If you would like to meet
>   to discuss Wimax networking I would be happy to talk to you.
>
>
>
>
>   Mobile Broadcasting with WiMAX: Principles, Technology, and
>   Applications (Focal Press Media Technology Professional
>   Series) [Paperback]
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Sounds good.  Just announce a date and time and location that works for you.
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Thu Aug 19 22:44:35 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:44:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimS4W-2BXLGGS7UbZT445NkNvgjmtfVmZE7f6EU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinBuHFuB2oTZs9upmFJHH7eR8xvdq6pmMmKO5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4C6D85B1.1080800@umn.edu>
	<AANLkTimS4W-2BXLGGS7UbZT445NkNvgjmtfVmZE7f6EU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6DFA23.9040108@meltel.net>

J Cruit wrote:
> Got Spectrum?
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu 
> <mailto:trnja001 at umn.edu>> wrote:
>
>     On 8/19/2010 2:23 PM, r j wrote:
>     > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
>     community network.
>     >
>     > --
>     > ???Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
>     > that you didn???t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the
>     > bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in
>     > your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.???
>     > ??? Mark Twain
>     >
>     How much does a transmitter cost?
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Limited to whatever free spectrum available. Right?
Tom


From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 00:11:15 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:11:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>

On Aug 19, 2010, at 16:48, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
>> I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it may seem like a
>> small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of
>> governmental intervention as anything else.
>
> What are the "basic laws of governmental intervention?"  You don't seem
> like much of an expert to me, but maybe you can refer me to a text book on
> this subject.  Is this something that all experts in econ/poli-sci agree
> on or is this just an idea that you are trying to promote in opposition to
> the views of many experts?
>
Who said I'm an expert, or that someone has to be an expert to ask you
to think past the end of your nose?  This is a LUG for crying out loud
-- aren't we all independent thinkers here?
>
>> Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us safe,
>> and some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our choices,
>> because that's what regulations are designed to DO.
>
> If a government regulation prevents a corporation from poisoning your
> drinking water and crippling you or killing your children, you actually
> end up with more choices than you would have had if there had been no
> regulation.

No. Better choices, maybe, because it might take away bad ones, but I
challenge you to show me a case where regulation gives you *more*
choices than you would have without it, except where it is just
correcting a previous overrestrictive regulation or law.
>
> A regulation restricts some entity from doing something, but it might
> restrict someone from limiting your choices (e.g., by killing you or
> poisoning your land).
>
Certainly.  Those are the good ones. But they're not all good, and
it's far from a given that all regulations do that kind of good, or
even that most do more good than bad. Rather than trying to argue that
regs are good or bad in the aggregate, we should be careful to examine
any proposed or imagined reg (which I think is what the net neutrality
one is at this point) to make sure that (a) it is in fact needed
because there is no other way, and (b) the longer term effects will be
net positive.

Seriously, is this really an alien idea?  Don't you do it on a micro
level when coding or refactoring, or implementing a system policy?

-Harry


From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 00:30:38 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:30:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqdSFD9sTGr4Yd=bv3=p=bD_d5t=n_=5qU80wa@mail.gmail.com>

Actually the racism-in-America thing is a particularly bad example of what
you're trying to assert.  Assuming you're talking about the Civil Rights
Act, it was enacted at least in part to override southern Jim Crow laws
which codified discrimination.  In other words, in at least some states the
law actually *prevented* employers, service providers, restaurants, etc from
treating blacks equally regardless of what companies wanted to do, be it
good or be it bad... didn't it?  In those cases, it was just one law
overriding another law, not a case of the government freeing us from the
(presumed) tyranny of the free market.  Just sayin'.

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> > When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in return? I
> > expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider like
> > cable TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want, like a
> > freeway. Some people would rather have a content provider, and that is
> > fine. Without regulations, both business models can exist through the
> > free market.
>
> Not necessarily.  With a free market, you get what you get.  There are no
> guarantees.
>
> For example, people used to say that a free market would solve the problem
> of racism because companies that refused to hire people just because they
> were black would not compete as effectively as companies that based hiring
> decisions on ability alone.  It did not work that way.  Companies avoided
> hiring high-ability black workers for a number of reasons (e.g., most of
> our customers are probably racists who won't want to work with a black
> sales rep).  It was necessary for the government to force companies to
> eliminate racial bias in hiring.  Government regulation was able to fix
> what a free market could not fix.
>
> Yes, the regulation was a restriction on freedom -- the freedom of
> companies to hire an all-white work force, or the freedom of white workers
> not to associate with black people -- but the same regulation enhanced the
> freedom and opportunity of the black workers.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 20 00:34:20 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:34:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <744A74A2-FB70-4AB1-833E-7F5D938CB9B7@me.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


  http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832


  http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/


  http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010



Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the same
as free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet seats in
public restrooms are really clean, right?


Chuck



  On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:


    How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones
being installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.

    Chuck
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 01:29:17 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:29:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200127520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2010, at 16:48, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>>
>>> I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it may seem like a
>>> small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of
>>> governmental intervention as anything else.
>>
>> What are the "basic laws of governmental intervention?"  You don't seem 
>> like much of an expert to me, but maybe you can refer me to a text book 
>> on this subject.  Is this something that all experts in econ/poli-sci 
>> agree on or is this just an idea that you are trying to promote in 
>> opposition to the views of many experts?
>
> Who said I'm an expert, or that someone has to be an expert to ask you 
> to think past the end of your nose?  This is a LUG for crying out loud 
> -- aren't we all independent thinkers here?

You were telling us all how government works, what we ought to do with 
regard to net neutrality, etc., but I think you don't know the first thing 
about it.


>>> Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us 
>>> safe, and some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our 
>>> choices, because that's what regulations are designed to DO.
>>
>> If a government regulation prevents a corporation from poisoning your 
>> drinking water and crippling you or killing your children, you actually 
>> end up with more choices than you would have had if there had been no 
>> regulation.
>
> No.

Whatever.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 01:30:24 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:30:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqdSFD9sTGr4Yd=bv3=p=bD_d5t=n_=5qU80wa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
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	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTinqdSFD9sTGr4Yd=bv3=p=bD_d5t=n_=5qU80wa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200130020.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> Actually the racism-in-America thing is a particularly bad example of 
> what you're trying to assert.  Assuming you're talking about the Civil 
> Rights Act, it was enacted at least in part to override southern Jim 
> Crow laws which codified discrimination.  In other words, in at least 
> some states the law actually *prevented* employers, service providers, 
> restaurants, etc from treating blacks equally regardless of what 
> companies wanted to do, be it good or be it bad... didn't it?

I don't think so.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 01:43:34 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:43:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
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	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
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	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
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	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTiky-+Lsj+ngGnw+HnfFpbTrXNvLiav5CkNEPsZ=@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200131560.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> Well, in a free market, the 5% minority would probably start their own 
> bus or transit service. And, a few majority folk might even want in on 
> that because there is a small market of the minority wanting a better 
> service and a small market of the majority who want a bus service that 
> doesn't make the minority do stupid things. The free market isn't 
> perfect, but most people will take the slow moving iron fist over 
> excessive government intervention.

I'm not convinced by your argument that the government should allow 
companies to discriminate against people on the basis of race, religion, 
etc.  It sounds pretty bad -- an ugly world that we have mostly been able 
to put to an end.  Let's not go back to that.


> A more recent example, Minneapolis used to have only a handful of taxis 
> companies per city code- until one person challenged and succeeded in 
> overturning this regulatory restriction that was intended to protect 
> consumers but in modern times was just abused by a monopolistic group of 
> companies for their own financial gain.

You can find loads of examples of bad government regulations, no doubt, 
but my point is only that they are not *necessarily* bad, which was the 
original claim.  To find out if a regulation is bad, I'm saying, you have 
to at least know what the regulation is.


> It goes both ways, free market and government regulation can be 
> excessive or lacking at times depending on the issue at hand. Honestly I 
> hate both sides almost equally with a slight inclination toward the free 
> market.

I don't see it as two sides.  We have both together.  For example, we have 
a free market in owner-sold used cars -- the government does nothing to 
control prices -- but the government does have some kinds of regulations 
in different times/places like the so-called "lemon laws" to protect 
consumers.

I want markets to set prices for almost everything with the proviso that I 
want government to prevent collusion, price fixing and coercive 
monopolies.  I want to encourage real competition.  The real die-hard free 
marketeers don't want government even to prevent price fixing.  I think 
they are wrong, very wrong, and also kinda naive, usually exceedingly 
self-assured and lacking in knowledge of economics, history and other 
related matters.  They think all they need to know is "market good, 
government bad," and they can apply that mantra to any situation, size it 
up, and tell you the answer.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 01:57:05 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:57:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200156040.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

>> I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would say the 
>> telephone is long dead as well.
>
> I don't know what you mean.  Telephone as on POTS, not cellular, is 
> "long dead"?  I got rid of mine in about 2003, but strangely, I just got 
> back into it because I'm sick and tired of my cell phone (Sprint) not 
> working in my house.  So now I'm using VoIP.  With Google Voice helping 
> out, I think I might drop the cell phone and save $75/mo.  I can still 
> have a handheld device that takes photos/videos, does WiFi, etc., all 
> for $0/month.


I should add that as far as I know, changes in my use of technology have 
nothing to do with government regulations, just changes in availability of 
new technologies to replace the old ones.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 01:55:55 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:55:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, r j wrote:

> I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have 
> owned a television.

Are you saying that you don't like television?  It isn't an objective 
statement about the value of television because we know that millions of 
people pay tens of dollars per month for cable and satellite feeds to 
their televisions.  If television were worthless, they would pay nothing 
and they wouldn't even have televisions.

Does this mean that you are crazy, wasting my time with a lot of complete 
b.s.?  Probably.  I should have a rule never to argue with anonymous 
people on the internet.


> I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would say the 
> telephone is long dead as well.

I don't know what you mean.  Telephone as on POTS, not cellular, is "long 
dead"?  I got rid of mine in about 2003, but strangely, I just got back 
into it because I'm sick and tired of my cell phone (Sprint) not working 
in my house.  So now I'm using VoIP.  With Google Voice helping out, I 
think I might drop the cell phone and save $75/mo.  I can still have a 
handheld device that takes photos/videos, does WiFi, etc., all for 
$0/month.


> With convergent technologies your cell phone is a computer and your 
> phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your 
> cell phone is a microwave transmitter.

I look forward to that, probably.  It will depend on how much I have to 
pay.

Mike


From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:15:06 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:15:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikkiFMDgjq8uxSfegj_Df0fRciScGmz-6vE9p1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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Message-ID: <AANLkTim99qQV7oiyNgV3EmHWediQg9VoihbXcYk-xSDu@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Harry,
> You assert that all regulation is designed to restrict choices.  But, is
> that really true?  Some regulation is designed to guarantee we have choices
> because without choice "free markets" devolve into abusive monopolies.
>
> Really?  I can't name an actual monopoly in the last century that wasn't
mandated or at least hugely facilitated by government regulation.  Can you?
If so, let's look at what prevented the choice.  No offense, but I suspect
you're taking "free markets result in monopolies or at least in a menu of
nothing but bad choices" as an unexamined premise.  And without that
premise, doesn't the prospect of bureaucrats making more rules for you
become much less attractive?


> I did ask for examples, but I wasn't clear enough.  I wanted examples
> related to the topic of Net Neutrality that backed your position of
> reticence with respect to endorsing regulation enforcing net neutrality.
>
> *your reaction, for instance, was too quick to take the time to give
> examples or demonstrate any in-depth knowledge of the issue, which is
> exactly what you criticized me for -- rather than thinking it through.*
>
> I did criticize you, but here's the deal.  You expressed an opinion and
> position first, but it was practically content-free.  You framed your
> position with generalizations, not facts or chains of logic based on the
> issue of net neutrality at all.  You were went straight to "free
> marketeering/anti-regulation" and didn't even suggest as to why that is
> relevant.  I wasn't flaming your position, I was challenging you to give me
> something other than rhetoric to consider and think about in the context of
> Net Neutrality.  I'm still waiting.  Give me more to think about and
> consider and I'll think about it.
>
> If you're just afraid of big-government/regulation on principle - nothing
> less and nothing more - okay then.  I get it.
>

Here's what happened:  I saw "savetheinternet.com", thought to myself
"somebody's got delusions of grandeur!", followed the URL and saw Al Franken
as a sponsor, thought to myself "has this guy ever had a serious thought on
anything, especially on tech stuff I care about?", saw that the page gave a
very slanted view of the net neutrality debate, and thought to myself "I
sure hope nobody takes this seriously; just for grins maybe I'll remind my
fellow TCLUGers to look before they leap on this, because they make it sound
like a no-brainer but it probably isn't the right thing to do".  So I posted
a message reminding you all to think hard before letting the likes of these
clowns redefine the traffic rules for the Internet.

Yes, I am very skeptical of big government, as any sane person is.  And
skeptical of the good most regulation does.  So nothing less and not *much*
more...  I've spent the last 5 years auditing tech, not producing it, so I'm
not claiming any special knowledge.

But I'm also a fellow Internet user who has worked for and with content
providers (as most people on this list probably have), and I'm not
comfortable with the idea of anybody telling me or my ISP what must or must
not be prioritized.  Would it be nice to have video prioritized?  Sure,
sometimes.  Would it be nice not to have BitTorrent de-prioritized?  Sure,
sometimes.  Admins of large networks make those kinds of decisions all the
time.  Should those decisions be made at the ISP level?  Probably not.  But
maybe I'm in a situation where I'm administering a very large network and I
*want* all kinds of crap filtered at the ISP level.  Or maybe I'm just a guy
at home and I don't.  Why shouldn't I have a choice?  Seems to me not *all*
ISPs are going to do the wrong thing just because they *can*.  If there are
enough people who want minimal packet inspection and minimal traffic shaping
on their Internet feed, there's probably going to be somebody who will
continue to offer it.  Maybe that forces all of us who care about that kind
of stuff off Comcast and back onto DSL, using somebody like VISI or IPHouse
who still cater to the tech-savvy crowd.  Maybe it costs a couple bucks more
per month.  Or on the other hand maybe I can't get anything but )!&%! 3G at
my house and Verizon is going to be one of the bad guys who do that kind of
stuff and won't even give me an option to pay more for an
uninspected/unshaped connection.  [ASIDE:  Heck, they won't even give me an
unmetered connection no matter what I pay...  But it was my choice to live
in the sticks, and I knew the situation going in (well actually I didn't,
but that was my fault), so I'm just living with the consequence of my own
choice.  When I first got here, I tried WildBlue satellite Internet and it
REALLY stank: metered, restricted, and latency like you wouldn't believe.  I
chose the lesser of two evils -- a smaller cap and less reliability (3G
instead of satellite), but much lower latency.  That's how choice works.  I
realize those factors aren't the subject of the net neut debate, but I think
it would have played out similarly if the issue had been content
intervention instead of latency.]

The alternative, as I see it, is starting (or some might say continuing)
ISPs down the path of TV or phone providers, where there's little or no
choice.  It seems to me that when you restrict providers in what they can
provide, you ultimately and necessarily restrict consumers in what they can
consume.  In other words, by regulating the providers we regulate ourselves
to some extent.  Maybe that's OK with you but I'd prefer to take my chances
among providers making varied choices than among providers where some
bureaucrat has already made the choices for everyone.


> My understanding of Net Neutrality is that it preserves the separation of
> concerns between bandwidth providers and content providers.  It means
> everyone's traffic between the content provider and my box is treated
> fairly, and that the service I'm consuming is not trumped by traffic from
> content providers with cozy deals with my bandwidth provider that I may not
> even be aware of.  It also means that my bandwidth provider can't
> de-prioritize traffic from a competitor to one of their own services and
> force me to be vendor locked.  That is to say - net neutrality preserves
> choice by preventing the people in control of distribution from deciding for
> me what my choices are going to be.
>
> Which is to say, I really don't understand the free-market/anti-regulation
> objection to net-neutrality.  Bandwidth is a commodity.  Bandwidth providers
> are utilities.  What is the basis of your objection to net-neutrality other
> than general paranoia and/or dogma?  That is what I was looking for (and
> expecting) from your first post. :)
>
> I certainly understand your concern and agree that it's a legitimate
issue.  But making it illegal for ISPs to consider the content of the
traffic can have costs as well.  As the pipes become more congested, will
VoIP still be feasible without prioritization?  Sure, you can prioritize it
on your own LAN and on your firewall, but if it gets treated the same as
telnet once it hits the big pipes how will it sound in 2 years after every
cell phone on earth is playing youtube videos of lolcats?  One solution is
to build bigger pipes, but will ISPs keep giving you unlimited data transfer
for a flat fee if they have to double their capacity and can't tweak the
traffic to increase perceived bandwidth?

Actions have reactions:  maybe regulation solves the content discrimination
problem, but it might directly cause or hasten other undesirable outcomes
such as the end of (or an increase in the price of) unmetered home
connections, or degrade VoIP performance (forcing people back onto POTS
lines or onto cell phones where we are already seeing metered data), or make
"free" Internet video conference calls suddenly expensive or impossible, or
who knows what.

As I said in a couple other posts, I'm not saying regulation is bad per se,
just that we owe it to ourselves to think hard about the consequences before
we push for this or any regulation.  There are a lot of smart people on the
net; I've just gotta believe there must be some other way to deal with the
problem.

And BTW I really appreciate the thoughtful tone of your message -- we may
disagree, but it's nice to see we can do so peaceably (unlike most other
places on the net).  It's one of the reasons I love this list.

-Harry
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From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:26:56 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:26:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200130020.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
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	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200130020.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin2GJPJOEjuaz0RdxjLKQPROYXpiTBSatyAs-Kz@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
> > Actually the racism-in-America thing is a particularly bad example of
> > what you're trying to assert.  Assuming you're talking about the Civil
> > Rights Act, it was enacted at least in part to override southern Jim
> > Crow laws which codified discrimination.  In other words, in at least
> > some states the law actually *prevented* employers, service providers,
> > restaurants, etc from treating blacks equally regardless of what
> > companies wanted to do, be it good or be it bad... didn't it?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Mike
>

You don't think Jim Crow laws codified discrimination between whites and
blacks?  Laws requiring separate water fountains, separate schools, blacks
and whites have to sit in different parts of the bus, etc?  With all due
respect, what exactly do you think they did, then?
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From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:42:21 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:42:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200127520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <AANLkTi=R2wn83D_4E3JdbeOdWoP7bhSQ7xTyiQOTSgLf@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:29 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
> > On Aug 19, 2010, at 16:48, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm making sweeping generalizations because although it may seem like a
> >>> small technical issue it's subject to the same basic laws of
> >>> governmental intervention as anything else.
> >>
> >> What are the "basic laws of governmental intervention?"  You don't seem
> >> like much of an expert to me, but maybe you can refer me to a text book
> >> on this subject.  Is this something that all experts in econ/poli-sci
> >> agree on or is this just an idea that you are trying to promote in
> >> opposition to the views of many experts?
> >
> > Who said I'm an expert, or that someone has to be an expert to ask you
> > to think past the end of your nose?  This is a LUG for crying out loud
> > -- aren't we all independent thinkers here?
>
> You were telling us all how government works, what we ought to do with
> regard to net neutrality, etc., but I think you don't know the first thing
> about it.
>
> Actually I wasn't telling you what you ought to do with regard to net
neutrality.  I was asking you to think before doing anything.  And maybe
ease up a bit on the ad hominem.  I'm not going to argue with you about who
knows more about it -- neither of us has demonstrated any in-depth knowledge
of it in this thread, but I'll grant you probably know more than I do about
the specifics -- but I ask you again to think hard about what the
consequences of such regulation might be.  If we outlaw content meddling by
ISPs, will it cause unmetered connection prices to go up or maybe be phased
out more quickly than they otherwise would be?  Will it affect the usability
of VoIP or video streaming?  If we're dead set on some regulation as the
solution, is there a way to craft it to minimize those effects?  Your point
(in another thread) that we don't even know how the regulation would be
worded isn't an argument for or against it, but it would certainly make me
think twice.  Surely you wouldn't support a regulation that would affect the
entire Internet so broadly without knowing every letter of what's in it?


> >>> Of course regulation is a double-edged sword.  Some helps keep us
> >>> safe, and some helps make us miserable.  But all of it restricts our
> >>> choices, because that's what regulations are designed to DO.
> >>
> >> If a government regulation prevents a corporation from poisoning your
> >> drinking water and crippling you or killing your children, you actually
> >> end up with more choices than you would have had if there had been no
> >> regulation.
> >
> > No.
>
> Whatever.
>
> I spell "oops" differently, but your way is cooler.

-Harry
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:50:13 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 02:50:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim99qQV7oiyNgV3EmHWediQg9VoihbXcYk-xSDu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200239330.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Harry,
>> You assert that all regulation is designed to restrict choices.  But, is
>> that really true?  Some regulation is designed to guarantee we have choices
>> because without choice "free markets" devolve into abusive monopolies.
>
> Really?  I can't name an actual monopoly in the last century that wasn't 
> mandated or at least hugely facilitated by government regulation.  Can 
> you? If so, let's look at what prevented the choice.  No offense, but I 
> suspect you're taking "free markets result in monopolies or at least in 
> a menu of nothing but bad choices" as an unexamined premise.  And 
> without that premise, doesn't the prospect of bureaucrats making more 
> rules for you become much less attractive?


"Unexamined premise?"  Read Ayn Rand much?  Did you start as a teenager?

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 03:09:25 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:09:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=R2wn83D_4E3JdbeOdWoP7bhSQ7xTyiQOTSgLf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> Actually I wasn't telling you what you ought to do with regard to net 
> neutrality.  I was asking you to think before doing anything.

Back in reality, on Thu, 19 Aug 2010 at 10:41:41, you wrote, "Seems to me 
we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us."


> I ask you again to think hard about what the consequences of such 
> regulation might be.  If we outlaw content meddling by ISPs, will it 
> cause unmetered connection prices to go up or maybe be phased out more 
> quickly than they otherwise would be?  Will it affect the usability of 
> VoIP or video streaming?  If we're dead set on some regulation as the 
> solution, is there a way to craft it to minimize those effects?  Your 
> point (in another thread) that we don't even know how the regulation 
> would be worded isn't an argument for or against it, but it would 
> certainly make me think twice.  Surely you wouldn't support a regulation 
> that would affect the entire Internet so broadly without knowing every 
> letter of what's in it?

Right -- we have to know what's in it before we oppose it or support it. 
This is what I've been saying and it is not what you were saying.  You 
might have meant to say something different, but your point was pretty 
clearly that government regulation will be bad, so we should oppose it.


I read a bunch of the stuff on this list today and a lot of it wasn't very 
impressive but I did like what Tony Yarusso wrote.  I liked it so much 
that I'm appending it below.  What's wrong with what Tony is saying?

Mike


Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:54:47
From: Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota

Much of this discussion actually looks at things somewhat backward, IMO. 
The government would actually be the anti-regulation force here, and the 
ISPs the regulators.

Consider this:

One option is to have a free-flowing Internet where everything is equal, 
and just allowed to happen.  The "Information Superhighway" would be 
allowed to be a "free market" of ideas and content.

The other option is to have business executives decide they want to reward 
some of that traffic and punish others, or favor some customers over 
others, or charge extra fees for certain uses while subsidizing others. 
No content is guaranteed passage, but rather must meet the particular 
rules set forth for it.

Which one of those sounds like regulation to you?  Clearly it is the 
latter, which is the one done by ISPs, dictating which traffic will be 
"special" and which will be hindered.  The former is not regulation by the 
government, but a mandate that regulation must not be done by 
corporations.

The first case, with free flow of information, is the hands-off approach 
that allowed the Internet to flourish.  The difference is that now the 
corporations have the technology to put a stop to that, so people are 
asking the government to intervene in order to protect the integrity of 
the Internet's nature as it has been from the beginning.

  - Tony Yarusso


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 03:11:44 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:11:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin2GJPJOEjuaz0RdxjLKQPROYXpiTBSatyAs-Kz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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	<AANLkTin2GJPJOEjuaz0RdxjLKQPROYXpiTBSatyAs-Kz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200309380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>>
>>> Actually the racism-in-America thing is a particularly bad example of 
>>> what you're trying to assert.  Assuming you're talking about the Civil 
>>> Rights Act, it was enacted at least in part to override southern Jim 
>>> Crow laws which codified discrimination.  In other words, in at least 
>>> some states the law actually *prevented* employers, service providers, 
>>> restaurants, etc from treating blacks equally regardless of what 
>>> companies wanted to do, be it good or be it bad... didn't it?
>>
>> I don't think so.
>
> You don't think Jim Crow laws codified discrimination between whites and 
> blacks?  Laws requiring separate water fountains, separate schools, 
> blacks and whites have to sit in different parts of the bus, etc?  With 
> all due respect, what exactly do you think they did, then?


I'm saying that I don't think Jim Crow laws prevented employers from 
hiring black people.  I'm not sure if they prevented restaurant owners 
from serving black people.  You can look it up and tell me about it.

Mike


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Aug 20 05:21:53 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 05:21:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] **Tomorrow** Lightweight Linux Distros at Penguins
 Unbound Saturday August 21st
Message-ID: <4C6E5741.4030109@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday August 21st at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

Lightweight Linux Distros

Jason Hsu will talk about Lightweight Linux Distros.  He will show how
various Linux distros perform in Virtualbox when allocated just 256 MB
of RAM.  He will demonstrate Ubuntu, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, and other
distros.

Hope to see you there.

==>brian.


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 05:57:34 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 05:57:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim99qQV7oiyNgV3EmHWediQg9VoihbXcYk-xSDu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikkiFMDgjq8uxSfegj_Df0fRciScGmz-6vE9p1g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <4C6E5F9E.8090600@gmail.com>

 On 8/20/2010 2:15 AM, Harry Penner wrote:
> I certainly understand your concern and agree that it's a legitimate
> issue.  But making it illegal for ISPs to consider the content of the
> traffic can have costs as well.  As the pipes become more congested,
> will VoIP still be feasible without prioritization?  Sure, you can
> prioritize it on your own LAN and on your firewall, but if it gets
> treated the same as telnet once it hits the big pipes how will it
> sound in 2 years after every cell phone on earth is playing youtube
> videos of lolcats?  One solution is to build bigger pipes, but will
> ISPs keep giving you unlimited data transfer for a flat fee if they
> have to double their capacity and can't tweak the traffic to increase
> perceived bandwidth?
>
> Actions have reactions:  maybe regulation solves the content
> discrimination problem, but it might directly cause or hasten other
> undesirable outcomes such as the end of (or an increase in the price
> of) unmetered home connections, or degrade VoIP performance (forcing
> people back onto POTS lines or onto cell phones where we are already
> seeing metered data), or make "free" Internet video conference calls
> suddenly expensive or impossible, or who knows what.
I've mostly skimmed through the posts here, so I may be a bit off, but I
don't think the big issue is whether an ISP should be allowed to
prioritize certain types of traffic, but rather whether ISPs should be
allowed to control who can connect to whom. The fear is that ISPs will
block connections to certain servers, either charging customers to
connect to certain websites or charging website owners to connect to the
customers on top of what they charge for bandwidth. In such a scenario,
it's likely that prices go up and choices go down.


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Aug 20 07:15:25 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:15:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Hardware questions.
In-Reply-To: <595e6707ff9bc38fe8bfde0811620632.squirrel@usi-mail06-mtka.usinternet.com>
References: <195898.9343.qm@web59404.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <6965BF56D54D497FAE0298720749CFEB@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Any comments from anyone who actually went last night?



From tlunde at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 07:30:16 2010
From: tlunde at gmail.com (T L)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:30:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik_AFzqgcUpWyc-ZAv47yjM77bJjVN9RhPFoDwx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
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Message-ID: <AANLkTikbDyxu_VgRSm4ZeuTFGsVe-g6VWV9TMXT+W9Sa@mail.gmail.com>

Wearing my lawyer hat:

The DMCA is not a regulation, it is a statute, passed by Congress & signed
by the President.

Taking it off:

For the "free market uber alles" folk, please read about natural monopolies
and the history of "common carrier" regulations. The experience of small
farmers and railroads may be especially instructive.

For the gentleman who asked for an example of a monopoly in the last century
that wasn't related to government regulation, you're going to have to look
outside the US. This isn't a coincidence: the Sherman Act, which limited the
"free" market in this way was passed in 1895.  Beyond our borders, there are
plenty of examples.

I put free in quotes because I think you'll find that economists make
significant distinctions between situations where buyers and sellers have
equal power and where they do not.

Where they do, monopolies are not a worry. Where sellers have greater power,
then a monopoly is one possible negative outcome. That I can name every
company that can provide me and have control over a network pipe to the
outside world tells me that there are few enough of them that individual
sellers have way more power than individual buyers in this market.

Seriously, please look up the phrase common carrier. It is a good parallel
to the trendy network neutrality phrase and its history night provide some
great examples of why regulation can be economically efficient.

As always with policy, the devil is in the details.

Thomas

On Aug 19, 2010 5:09 PM, "Mike Miller"
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you ex...
Not necessarily.  With a free market, you get what you get.  There are no
guarantees.

For example, people used to say that a free market would solve the problem
of racism because companies that refused to hire people just because they
were black would not compete as effectively as companies that based hiring
decisions on ability alone.  It did not work that way.  Companies avoided
hiring high-ability black workers for a number of reasons (e.g., most of
our customers are probably racists who won't want to work with a black
sales rep).  It was necessary for the government to force companies to
eliminate racial bias in hiring.  Government regulation was able to fix
what a free market could not fix.

Yes, the regulation was a restriction on freedom -- the freedom of
companies to hire an all-white work force, or the freedom of white workers
not to associate with black people -- but the same regulation enhanced the
freedom and opportunity of the black workers.

Mike


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesot...
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From jeremy at jskier.com  Fri Aug 20 07:24:47 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:24:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200131560.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
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	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200131560.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C6E740F.5080707@jskier.com>

  I agree, we should not abolish government regulation all together. I 
want the government to hold up individual rights as it intended, but not 
interfere too much with businesses (unless they commit fraud, or other 
criminal activity- this type of enforcement has historically and is 
currently lacking in our country right now). Harassing any citizen 
regardless of race, religion, orientation, etc. isn't right nor legal; 
this is a criminal matter. Having a public government run bus service 
that segregates is illegal. However, today in Minnesota if you have a 
small business (I believe it is less than 25 employees), you are free to 
hire who you chose and are not subject to equal opportunity employment. 
Go to your local dry cleaner (White Way and a few other chains are too 
big to fit into this) and see how many men they hire to work behind the 
counter. I know several women who say they just wish their company would 
just tell the men applicants they won't get hired but they don't- if it 
were known they were sexist their business would be in social market 
trouble, not legal.

Any big organization whether government or corporate will have increased 
corruption. How do we control it? Trust the government? Trust the profit 
driven business? I don't have definite answers to non-perfect system we 
have (perfection will never exist).

Take a look at some anti trust issues the government has tackled- 
Microsoft and DOJ, a waste of money and resources- and patent law? 
Browse over to Slashdat- 
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/08/17/0437242/Why-Software-Patents-Are-a-Joke-mdash-Literally. 
Government regulation can be good, but it can also be nearly as bad as 
the slow moving reactions of the free market.

I do wish the government would focus less on silly regulations and more 
on criminal enforcement in the corporate world. I wish government would 
cut excessive red tape. I also wish I had a definite end all answer, but 
with every system there will be inherent problems- this is not socially 
or ethically okay but we CANNOT fix everything by running to the 
government every time. I see you have chosen the answer that you think 
best suits everyone else, unfortunately not everyone else agrees with 
you entirely so it is not a solution. Neither are my thoughts, but at 
least I admit it and can define what is clearly not working in terms of 
regulation.

On 08/20/2010 01:43 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
>
>> Well, in a free market, the 5% minority would probably start their own
>> bus or transit service. And, a few majority folk might even want in on
>> that because there is a small market of the minority wanting a better
>> service and a small market of the majority who want a bus service that
>> doesn't make the minority do stupid things. The free market isn't
>> perfect, but most people will take the slow moving iron fist over
>> excessive government intervention.
> I'm not convinced by your argument that the government should allow
> companies to discriminate against people on the basis of race, religion,
> etc.  It sounds pretty bad -- an ugly world that we have mostly been able
> to put to an end.  Let's not go back to that.
>
>
>> A more recent example, Minneapolis used to have only a handful of taxis
>> companies per city code- until one person challenged and succeeded in
>> overturning this regulatory restriction that was intended to protect
>> consumers but in modern times was just abused by a monopolistic group of
>> companies for their own financial gain.
> You can find loads of examples of bad government regulations, no doubt,
> but my point is only that they are not *necessarily* bad, which was the
> original claim.  To find out if a regulation is bad, I'm saying, you have
> to at least know what the regulation is.
>
>
>> It goes both ways, free market and government regulation can be
>> excessive or lacking at times depending on the issue at hand. Honestly I
>> hate both sides almost equally with a slight inclination toward the free
>> market.
> I don't see it as two sides.  We have both together.  For example, we have
> a free market in owner-sold used cars -- the government does nothing to
> control prices -- but the government does have some kinds of regulations
> in different times/places like the so-called "lemon laws" to protect
> consumers.
>
> I want markets to set prices for almost everything with the proviso that I
> want government to prevent collusion, price fixing and coercive
> monopolies.  I want to encourage real competition.  The real die-hard free
> marketeers don't want government even to prevent price fixing.  I think
> they are wrong, very wrong, and also kinda naive, usually exceedingly
> self-assured and lacking in knowledge of economics, history and other
> related matters.  They think all they need to know is "market good,
> government bad," and they can apply that mantra to any situation, size it
> up, and tell you the answer.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Aug 20 07:41:06 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:41:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikbDyxu_VgRSm4ZeuTFGsVe-g6VWV9TMXT+W9Sa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
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	<AANLkTikbDyxu_VgRSm4ZeuTFGsVe-g6VWV9TMXT+W9Sa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E615A35200CA4AAFBE246304EBC8D7E8@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Of course I sent that last reply using the wrong email thread as the source.
So here it is again under the proper email thread/subject


Any comments from anyone who actually went last night?



From tompoe at meltel.net  Fri Aug 20 08:17:04 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:17:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <E615A35200CA4AAFBE246304EBC8D7E8@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>	<4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net><-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid>	<4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net><1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com><AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTimhS0A-56Cm5nUTaNvaeFHQ2Df6mK2LvM1mteSG@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik_AFzqgcUpWyc-ZAv47yjM77bJjVN9RhPFoDwx@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikbDyxu_VgRSm4ZeuTFGsVe-g6VWV9TMXT+W9Sa@mail.gmail.com>
	<E615A35200CA4AAFBE246304EBC8D7E8@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <4C6E8050.3080704@meltel.net>

Justin Krejci wrote:
> Of course I sent that last reply using the wrong email thread as the source.
> So here it is again under the proper email thread/subject
>
>
> Any comments from anyone who actually went last night?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Justin:  Right after I said I was going, my daughter reminded me I might 
not want to travel when I have night blindness, and Eden Valley is too 
far to make it home before dark.  So, here's the first of the video on 
youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjYpz5TQSlE

Watch savetheinternet.org home page.  They'll be posting the transcript 
and video, soon.
Tom


From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Thu Aug 19 15:23:41 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:23:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <F8B957E3-F77B-44A1-B252-BC3202E20113@lizakowski.com>


Right now we have few Internet regulations.

Companies want to change things, and impose regulations and fees upon  
is.

The govt wants to make that illegal.

One way or another, someone will be regulating part of our lives in  
the near future.

Like in ghostbusters, we must choose our daemon.

J


Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.



On Aug 19, 2010, at 12:09 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think you should show up to argue against federal regulation
> unless you know what that regulation will be.  There is a lot of b.s.
> floating around the web and on Fox News about how horrible  
> government is,
> and if only we could destroy it, then we'd all be free.  This is  
> baseless
> rubbish being promoted by powerful people who want to be more  
> powerful.
>
> If you don't want police, fire departments, roads, public schools,  
> state
> universities, a postal service, or a military, then you don't want a
> government.  As you said, without our federal government you  
> wouldn't have
> an internet.  So I don't think it's wise to simply presume that  
> whatever
> the government might do will be bad.  It can go either way and you  
> just
> have to know what a policy is before you oppose it.
>
> If someone wants to discuss specific policies that are being  
> considered
> and the probably consequences of adopting those policies, I'd be very
> interested to learn more about it.  One thing I wouldn't want is for  
> ISPs
> to reduce user access to certain sites at certain times, etc., forcing
> content providers to pay for access to users.  We know that the market
> doesn't always take care of such problems by providing us with what we
> want for some higher price.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me  
>> that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>>
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>>
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws  
>> off us.
>>
>> -Harry
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin  
>>> Cities.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be  
>>> interested
>>> to know.
>>>
>>> ==>brian.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 06:52:21 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:52:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqdSFD9sTGr4Yd=bv3=p=bD_d5t=n_=5qU80wa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTinqdSFD9sTGr4Yd=bv3=p=bD_d5t=n_=5qU80wa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7EA6F3C5-F3BD-47FA-B5F4-1C30F93F2B4A@lizakowski.com>

>   In those cases, it was just one law overriding another law,


That gets +2 points, for dismantling what appeared to be a decent  
argument.

Jeremy


Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.

On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:30 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually the racism-in-America thing is a particularly bad example  
> of what you're trying to assert.  Assuming you're talking about the  
> Civil Rights Act, it was enacted at least in part to override  
> southern Jim Crow laws which codified discrimination.  In other  
> words, in at least some states the law actually *prevented*  
> employers, service providers, restaurants, etc from treating blacks  
> equally regardless of what companies wanted to do, be it good or be  
> it bad... didn't it?  In those cases, it was just one law overriding  
> another law, not a case of the government freeing us from the  
> (presumed) tyranny of the free market.  Just sayin'.
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> > When you sign a contract with your ISP, what do you expect in  
> return? I
> > expect a "tube" to the internet. I do not want a content provider  
> like
> > cable TV. I want a connection to what ever destination I want,  
> like a
> > freeway. Some people would rather have a content provider, and  
> that is
> > fine. Without regulations, both business models can exist through  
> the
> > free market.
>
> Not necessarily.  With a free market, you get what you get.  There  
> are no
> guarantees.
>
> For example, people used to say that a free market would solve the  
> problem
> of racism because companies that refused to hire people just because  
> they
> were black would not compete as effectively as companies that based  
> hiring
> decisions on ability alone.  It did not work that way.  Companies  
> avoided
> hiring high-ability black workers for a number of reasons (e.g.,  
> most of
> our customers are probably racists who won't want to work with a black
> sales rep).  It was necessary for the government to force companies to
> eliminate racial bias in hiring.  Government regulation was able to  
> fix
> what a free market could not fix.
>
> Yes, the regulation was a restriction on freedom -- the freedom of
> companies to hire an all-white work force, or the freedom of white  
> workers
> not to associate with black people -- but the same regulation  
> enhanced the
> freedom and opportunity of the black workers.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 06:55:42 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:55:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BDED4BE2-88D1-4556-89B4-E008CC225F27@lizakowski.com>


The us Internet wifi is free?  I didn't know that.

I wonder if a visa gift card would work.

J

Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.


On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- 
> linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
>
> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832
>
> http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010
>
>
>
> Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't  
> attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the same as  
> free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or  
> function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet seats in  
> public restrooms are really clean, right?
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are  
>> bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones being  
>> installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to  
>> another city that has more free spots.
>>
>> Chuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 07:15:45 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:15:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <B0A87DC5-4A6A-44FF-8B90-61A1D28218E5@lizakowski.com>

> I should have a rule never to argue with anonymous
> people on the internet.

[Added to the list of famous quotes]


>> WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your
>> cell phone is a microwave transmitter.

The body, being mostly water, is a
microwave receiver.   Actually, "Test load" might be more accurate.

J


Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.


On Aug 20, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, r j wrote:
>
>> I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have
>> owned a television.
>
> Are you saying that you don't like television?  It isn't an objective
> statement about the value of television because we know that  
> millions of
> people pay tens of dollars per month for cable and satellite feeds to
> their televisions.  If television were worthless, they would pay  
> nothing
> and they wouldn't even have televisions.
>
> Does this mean that you are crazy, wasting my time with a lot of  
> complete
> b.s.?  Probably.  I should have a rule never to argue with anonymous
> people on the internet.
>
>
>> I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would say the
>> telephone is long dead as well.
>
> I don't know what you mean.  Telephone as on POTS, not cellular, is  
> "long
> dead"?  I got rid of mine in about 2003, but strangely, I just got  
> back
> into it because I'm sick and tired of my cell phone (Sprint) not  
> working
> in my house.  So now I'm using VoIP.  With Google Voice helping out, I
> think I might drop the cell phone and save $75/mo.  I can still have a
> handheld device that takes photos/videos, does WiFi, etc., all for
> $0/month.
>
>
>> With convergent technologies your cell phone is a computer and your
>> phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your
>> cell phone is a microwave transmitter.
>
> I look forward to that, probably.  It will depend on how much I have  
> to
> pay.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 07:28:37 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:28:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim99qQV7oiyNgV3EmHWediQg9VoihbXcYk-xSDu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikkiFMDgjq8uxSfegj_Df0fRciScGmz-6vE9p1g@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim99qQV7oiyNgV3EmHWediQg9VoihbXcYk-xSDu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81FD3620-7DFE-43D3-BB46-CE36A992E27B@lizakowski.com>


The free market is a an unattainable ideal.  Like pure communism, the  
human element just won't support it.

I don't think you can separate government from economics, and both are  
guaranteed to be at least a bit messy.

> saw Al Franken as a sponsor, thought to myself "has this guy ever  
> had a serious thought on anything,


-2 points, for biased assertion while trying to make a logical argument.

J

Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.



On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:15 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Hi Harry,
> You assert that all regulation is designed to restrict choices.   
> But, is that really true?  Some regulation is designed to guarantee  
> we have choices because without choice "free markets" devolve into  
> abusive monopolies.
>
> Really?  I can't name an actual monopoly in the last century that  
> wasn't mandated or at least hugely facilitated by government  
> regulation.  Can you?  If so, let's look at what prevented the  
> choice.  No offense, but I suspect you're taking "free markets  
> result in monopolies or at least in a menu of nothing but bad  
> choices" as an unexamined premise.  And without that premise,  
> doesn't the prospect of bureaucrats making more rules for you become  
> much less attractive?
>
> I did ask for examples, but I wasn't clear enough.  I wanted  
> examples related to the topic of Net Neutrality that backed your  
> position of reticence with respect to endorsing regulation enforcing  
> net neutrality.
>
> your reaction, for instance, was too quick to take the time to give  
> examples or demonstrate any in-depth knowledge of the issue, which  
> is exactly what you criticized me for -- rather than thinking it  
> through.
>
> I did criticize you, but here's the deal.  You expressed an opinion  
> and position first, but it was practically content-free.  You framed  
> your position with generalizations, not facts or chains of logic  
> based on the issue of net neutrality at all.  You were went straight  
> to "free marketeering/anti-regulation" and didn't even suggest as to  
> why that is relevant.  I wasn't flaming your position, I was  
> challenging you to give me something other than rhetoric to consider  
> and think about in the context of Net Neutrality.  I'm still  
> waiting.  Give me more to think about and consider and I'll think  
> about it.
>
> If you're just afraid of big-government/regulation on principle -  
> nothing less and nothing more - okay then.  I get it.
>
> Here's what happened:  I saw "savetheinternet.com", thought to  
> myself "somebody's got delusions of grandeur!", followed the URL and  
> saw Al Franken as a sponsor, thought to myself "has this guy ever  
> had a serious thought on anything, especially on tech stuff I care  
> about?", saw that the page gave a very slanted view of the net  
> neutrality debate, and thought to myself "I sure hope nobody takes  
> this seriously; just for grins maybe I'll remind my fellow TCLUGers  
> to look before they leap on this, because they make it sound like a  
> no-brainer but it probably isn't the right thing to do".  So I  
> posted a message reminding you all to think hard before letting the  
> likes of these clowns redefine the traffic rules for the Internet.
>
> Yes, I am very skeptical of big government, as any sane person is.   
> And skeptical of the good most regulation does.  So nothing less and  
> not *much* more...  I've spent the last 5 years auditing tech, not  
> producing it, so I'm not claiming any special knowledge.
>
> But I'm also a fellow Internet user who has worked for and with  
> content providers (as most people on this list probably have), and  
> I'm not comfortable with the idea of anybody telling me or my ISP  
> what must or must not be prioritized.  Would it be nice to have  
> video prioritized?  Sure, sometimes.  Would it be nice not to have  
> BitTorrent de-prioritized?  Sure, sometimes.  Admins of large  
> networks make those kinds of decisions all the time.  Should those  
> decisions be made at the ISP level?  Probably not.  But maybe I'm in  
> a situation where I'm administering a very large network and I  
> *want* all kinds of crap filtered at the ISP level.  Or maybe I'm  
> just a guy at home and I don't.  Why shouldn't I have a choice?   
> Seems to me not *all* ISPs are going to do the wrong thing just  
> because they *can*.  If there are enough people who want minimal  
> packet inspection and minimal traffic shaping on their Internet  
> feed, there's probably going to be somebody who will continue to  
> offer it.  Maybe that forces all of us who care about that kind of  
> stuff off Comcast and back onto DSL, using somebody like VISI or  
> IPHouse who still cater to the tech-savvy crowd.  Maybe it costs a  
> couple bucks more per month.  Or on the other hand maybe I can't get  
> anything but )!&%! 3G at my house and Verizon is going to be one of  
> the bad guys who do that kind of stuff and won't even give me an  
> option to pay more for an uninspected/unshaped connection.  [ASIDE:   
> Heck, they won't even give me an unmetered connection no matter what  
> I pay...  But it was my choice to live in the sticks, and I knew the  
> situation going in (well actually I didn't, but that was my fault),  
> so I'm just living with the consequence of my own choice.  When I  
> first got here, I tried WildBlue satellite Internet and it REALLY  
> stank: metered, restricted, and latency like you wouldn't believe.   
> I chose the lesser of two evils -- a smaller cap and less  
> reliability (3G instead of satellite), but much lower latency.   
> That's how choice works.  I realize those factors aren't the subject  
> of the net neut debate, but I think it would have played out  
> similarly if the issue had been content intervention instead of  
> latency.]
>
> The alternative, as I see it, is starting (or some might say  
> continuing) ISPs down the path of TV or phone providers, where  
> there's little or no choice.  It seems to me that when you restrict  
> providers in what they can provide, you ultimately and necessarily  
> restrict consumers in what they can consume.  In other words, by  
> regulating the providers we regulate ourselves to some extent.   
> Maybe that's OK with you but I'd prefer to take my chances among  
> providers making varied choices than among providers where some  
> bureaucrat has already made the choices for everyone.
>
>
> My understanding of Net Neutrality is that it preserves the  
> separation of concerns between bandwidth providers and content  
> providers.  It means everyone's traffic between the content provider  
> and my box is treated fairly, and that the service I'm consuming is  
> not trumped by traffic from content providers with cozy deals with  
> my bandwidth provider that I may not even be aware of.  It also  
> means that my bandwidth provider can't de-prioritize traffic from a  
> competitor to one of their own services and force me to be vendor  
> locked.  That is to say - net neutrality preserves choice by  
> preventing the people in control of distribution from deciding for  
> me what my choices are going to be.
>
> Which is to say, I really don't understand the free-market/anti- 
> regulation objection to net-neutrality.  Bandwidth is a commodity.   
> Bandwidth providers are utilities.  What is the basis of your  
> objection to net-neutrality other than general paranoia and/or  
> dogma?  That is what I was looking for (and expecting) from your  
> first post. :)
>
> I certainly understand your concern and agree that it's a legitimate  
> issue.  But making it illegal for ISPs to consider the content of  
> the traffic can have costs as well.  As the pipes become more  
> congested, will VoIP still be feasible without prioritization?   
> Sure, you can prioritize it on your own LAN and on your firewall,  
> but if it gets treated the same as telnet once it hits the big pipes  
> how will it sound in 2 years after every cell phone on earth is  
> playing youtube videos of lolcats?  One solution is to build bigger  
> pipes, but will ISPs keep giving you unlimited data transfer for a  
> flat fee if they have to double their capacity and can't tweak the  
> traffic to increase perceived bandwidth?
>
> Actions have reactions:  maybe regulation solves the content  
> discrimination problem, but it might directly cause or hasten other  
> undesirable outcomes such as the end of (or an increase in the price  
> of) unmetered home connections, or degrade VoIP performance (forcing  
> people back onto POTS lines or onto cell phones where we are already  
> seeing metered data), or make "free" Internet video conference calls  
> suddenly expensive or impossible, or who knows what.
>
> As I said in a couple other posts, I'm not saying regulation is bad  
> per se, just that we owe it to ourselves to think hard about the  
> consequences before we push for this or any regulation.  There are a  
> lot of smart people on the net; I've just gotta believe there must  
> be some other way to deal with the problem.
>
> And BTW I really appreciate the thoughtful tone of your message --  
> we may disagree, but it's nice to see we can do so peaceably (unlike  
> most other places on the net).  It's one of the reasons I love this  
> list.
>
> -Harry
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 07:15:45 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:15:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] worthless @ Mike
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTi==-1Nh9BtYkJRzFxrixO-qKfkD9EMvpAzDRN0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200144510.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <B0A87DC5-4A6A-44FF-8B90-61A1D28218E5@lizakowski.com>

> I should have a rule never to argue with anonymous
> people on the internet.

[Added to the list of famous quotes]


>> WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your
>> cell phone is a microwave transmitter.

The body, being mostly water, is a
microwave receiver.   Actually, "Test load" might be more accurate.

J


Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.


On Aug 20, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, r j wrote:
>
>> I am saying television is worthless. It has been years sense I have
>> owned a television.
>
> Are you saying that you don't like television?  It isn't an objective
> statement about the value of television because we know that  
> millions of
> people pay tens of dollars per month for cable and satellite feeds to
> their televisions.  If television were worthless, they would pay  
> nothing
> and they wouldn't even have televisions.
>
> Does this mean that you are crazy, wasting my time with a lot of  
> complete
> b.s.?  Probably.  I should have a rule never to argue with anonymous
> people on the internet.
>
>
>> I have not had a telephone line for longer than that. I would say the
>> telephone is long dead as well.
>
> I don't know what you mean.  Telephone as on POTS, not cellular, is  
> "long
> dead"?  I got rid of mine in about 2003, but strangely, I just got  
> back
> into it because I'm sick and tired of my cell phone (Sprint) not  
> working
> in my house.  So now I'm using VoIP.  With Google Voice helping out, I
> think I might drop the cell phone and save $75/mo.  I can still have a
> handheld device that takes photos/videos, does WiFi, etc., all for
> $0/month.
>
>
>> With convergent technologies your cell phone is a computer and your
>> phone call is wireless data. WiMAX Is in the Microwave range and your
>> cell phone is a microwave transmitter.
>
> I look forward to that, probably.  It will depend on how much I have  
> to
> pay.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jeremy at lizakowski.com  Fri Aug 20 07:38:56 2010
From: jeremy at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:38:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200127520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=R2wn83D_4E3JdbeOdWoP7bhSQ7xTyiQOTSgLf@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <D854603C-F07E-4DC7-B64A-21F076E7911F@lizakowski.com>

> The government would actually be the anti-regulation force here, and  
> the
> ISPs the regulators.

It seems there is a lot of agreement that the Internet shouldn't be  
regulated.


J

Sent from my iPod.
...because my other device is a BB Storm.


On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:09 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
>> Actually I wasn't telling you what you ought to do with regard to net
>> neutrality.  I was asking you to think before doing anything.
>
> Back in reality, on Thu, 19 Aug 2010 at 10:41:41, you wrote, "Seems  
> to me
> we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us."
>
>
>> I ask you again to think hard about what the consequences of such
>> regulation might be.  If we outlaw content meddling by ISPs, will it
>> cause unmetered connection prices to go up or maybe be phased out  
>> more
>> quickly than they otherwise would be?  Will it affect the usability  
>> of
>> VoIP or video streaming?  If we're dead set on some regulation as the
>> solution, is there a way to craft it to minimize those effects?  Your
>> point (in another thread) that we don't even know how the regulation
>> would be worded isn't an argument for or against it, but it would
>> certainly make me think twice.  Surely you wouldn't support a  
>> regulation
>> that would affect the entire Internet so broadly without knowing  
>> every
>> letter of what's in it?
>
> Right -- we have to know what's in it before we oppose it or support  
> it.
> This is what I've been saying and it is not what you were saying.  You
> might have meant to say something different, but your point was pretty
> clearly that government regulation will be bad, so we should oppose  
> it.
>
>
> I read a bunch of the stuff on this list today and a lot of it  
> wasn't very
> impressive but I did like what Tony Yarusso wrote.  I liked it so much
> that I'm appending it below.  What's wrong with what Tony is saying?
>
> Mike
>
>
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:54:47
> From: Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
>
> Much of this discussion actually looks at things somewhat backward,  
> IMO.
> The government would actually be the anti-regulation force here, and  
> the
> ISPs the regulators.
>
> Consider this:
>
> One option is to have a free-flowing Internet where everything is  
> equal,
> and just allowed to happen.  The "Information Superhighway" would be
> allowed to be a "free market" of ideas and content.
>
> The other option is to have business executives decide they want to  
> reward
> some of that traffic and punish others, or favor some customers over
> others, or charge extra fees for certain uses while subsidizing  
> others.
> No content is guaranteed passage, but rather must meet the particular
> rules set forth for it.
>
> Which one of those sounds like regulation to you?  Clearly it is the
> latter, which is the one done by ISPs, dictating which traffic will be
> "special" and which will be hindered.  The former is not regulation  
> by the
> government, but a mandate that regulation must not be done by
> corporations.
>
> The first case, with free flow of information, is the hands-off  
> approach
> that allowed the Internet to flourish.  The difference is that now the
> corporations have the technology to put a stop to that, so people are
> asking the government to intervene in order to protect the integrity  
> of
> the Internet's nature as it has been from the beginning.
>
>  - Tony Yarusso
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 10:15:57 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:15:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT arguing with random people(mike)
Message-ID: <AANLkTik0+31=-nqKNFHT2Q1ii5V3bbSmjsC9awgEyR7W@mail.gmail.com>

Mike please don't stop arguing with random people on the TCLug. When I was
new to the lug your posts made me laugh on more than one occasion. The
arguments are fun to read.
 These arguments about net neutrality are interesting. My only real point is
everything is data over the air or on the wire and I would like to see
a community WiMAX network in the metro area.
I would also like to see more bandwidth reserved for citizens. What are you
thoughts on community Wimax ?
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 20 10:28:30 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:28:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <79137256-A7F4-4C86-BD67-6AEDAC959806@me.com>

Chuck:
Exposing them?

Did you read anything there? Or just assume that USI would have unsecured transmissions of the information?


On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Cole wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
> 
> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832
> 
> http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010 
>  
>  
>  
> Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the same as free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet seats in public restrooms are really clean, right?
>  
>  
> Chuck
>  
> 
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:
> 
>> How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones being installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.
>>  
>> Chuck
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 10:32:51 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:32:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinhqBLxX_9jBzxA4qHFr7N7KJ4N+NCr8+6Q=i_f@mail.gmail.com>

A natural monopoly existed as ALCOA. They drove prices down in the aluminum
market down by always looking to be more efficient in their processes and
owning the patent that made aluminum smelting possible.
Even though they were also competing against other building materials, the
courts still found them guilty using the Antitrust Act.
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 20 10:33:37 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:33:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <79137256-A7F4-4C86-BD67-6AEDAC959806@me.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEINDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<79137256-A7F4-4C86-BD67-6AEDAC959806@me.com>
Message-ID: <BEFFB0EF-3496-4CDB-9057-D85EB4CB5786@me.com>

Brain misfire - just woke up. Disclose is NOT expose.

I retract my email.


On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Chuck:
> Exposing them?
> 
> Did you read anything there? Or just assume that USI would have unsecured transmissions of the information?
> 
> 
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Cole wrote:
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
>> 
>> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832
>> 
>> http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/
>> 
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the same as free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet seats in public restrooms are really clean, right?
>>  
>>  
>> Chuck
>>  
>> 
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:
>> 
>>> How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free zones being installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.
>>>  
>>> Chuck
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From tompoe at meltel.net  Fri Aug 20 10:33:05 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:33:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6EA031.4030601@meltel.net>

J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype 
> WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class that I am 
> starting this semester has the students start a business with a 
> sizable grant from the U of M. I can easily see this as a decent 
> contender, not to mention an actually viable business model.
> Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?
>  
> Simmons
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net 
> <mailto:cncole at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
>     <mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org>
>     > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
>     <mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org>]On Behalf Of Jima
>     >
>     > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
>     > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
>     > community network.
>     >
>     >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
>     >
>     >  Waaaiiit...
>     >
>     >      Jima
>     >
>
>     I think he sez: BTDT
>
>
>     Chuck
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Can't give you an answer on downtown project, but you might be 
interested in Ypsilanti, Michigan.  Type the keywords, wireless mesh 
ypsilanti, into your favorite search engine, and follow the links.  
Basically, a couple of guys established a community-wide wireless mesh 
network that required no technical expertise to create and operate. 

Open-mesh.com works with low-income populations to establish wireless 
mesh networks and leverage Internet access by providers interested in 
gaining access to these "markets".

If I were a hospital, I would purchase a $50 open-mesh unit, and then 
offer to set up a branded network for community residents to participate 
in telemedicine programs with my hospital.  Each house could spend $60 
to purchase a unit on my branded network.  The $60 fee is a one-time 
fee, and a nominal monthly fee for Internet access could be offered.  My 
upfront costs would be negligible, and, defraying the hospital's 
Internet costs would be attractive.

Expanding on that concept, we have grocery stores, newspapers, local 
radio stations.  You name it.  Branded wireless mesh networks are the 
tip of the iceberg.  Let's say there's no Internet connection to a 
community wireless mesh network.  How about placing a virtual world 
application on a node, and setting up city hall offices to do their 
business?  Want a community town hall meeting with the audience 
including those who are in their homes?

Anyway, the biggest obstacle to any of this, is the local/regional telco 
companies.  They hate this concept so much, they sue anyone even 
attempting it.  Monticello is a good case study.
Tom


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 10:57:28 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:57:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik3gUuKF5i-9GoNbMDKx_E_LWANexy=6+NGCH0+@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,
I was using the story to contradict your statement that the free-market
could not fix the situation. There were two examples of the free-market
fixing the situation, and I know that there are plenty more. Though racism
is a belief, and no economic system can actually fix a faulty belief system.
Segregration and discrimination cannot be stamped out, only punished as our
current laws show. But my stories did well to illustrate that even things
being unequal, freedom of trade can be a great equalizer.

But to continue with this debate, we need to first start out properly with
the proper definations, and basis of ideas. First off the free-market is a
product of a liberal economic system like Laissez-faire. It is not a
political system, nor a judicial system. Racism is a belief (unsubstantiated
idea of truth) that genetic profiles can determine superiority. It is a
psychological issue that no law can stamp out in anyway. So no regulation or
economic system can remove racism.

So the first question is if a vendor has the right to deny service to
anyone, for any reason? Does the government have the right to force you to
do business with everyone? Even a man that raped your wife and/or children?
If your answer is yes, then the debate stops... by those ideals, a man does
not own the property that is his own effort. Man is in effect a slave to the
wills of the government and every other person who "deserves" his effort. If
your answer is no, then I expect that you can easily see how that line of
logic can easily apply to race. Is racism  a complete abomination? I believe
so, but those are my own opinions, and I do not force my own opinions upon
others. But more importantly, I believe that I can decide who I work for,
and how I can disperse the product of my effort.

We can go through the separate scenarios you described, and I can show you
with historical evidence how the free market provided the needed/wanted
services. If their was no other grocery store, then someone would have
started one, which was quite common with the all black clubs, stores, and
even some golf courses. The laughable "separate but equal" jim crow laws
made sure of that. But you said that they only service a small percentage of
the population. There is still a service to be offered and a profit to be
made. Time tables can be easily adjusted along with routes to account for
the smaller clientele, and still offer a decent service to the customer. You
state that such a setup would be a second rate service. Do you consider
having to "sing and tap dance" a first rate service?

Simmons

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 18:34, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>
> > A history professor I had loved to tell the story of his cousin who
> > owned a piggly-wiggly in a good-ol' boy Alabama town during the civil
> > rights movement. His cousin refused to high a single black (do not know
> > of any other minorities). Well, since the majority of his clientele was
> > black, they refused to shop at his store. He eventually had to bend to
> > the demands of the public.
>
> Oh, OK, so the free market worked to stop a racist employer from refusing
> to hire black workers, but only in a place with a majority of black
> customers who had to organize to stop him.  What happened in places where
> the majority was black but there were no other grocery stores.  What about
> places where the majority was white and the minority was black.  I have to
> say that a government intervention seems like the right thing -- it gets
> jobs for the black people, jobs that they deserve, and it spares the local
> black population from the hassles of having to organize a boycott to get
> what should have been theirs in the first place: freedom from racial
> discrimination in hiring.
>
> Do you really think your story is a good argument for a free market in
> hiring that allows for racist discrimination?
>
>
> > The same for the bus boycott that was sparked by Rosa Parks.
>
> Right, it's good that poor black people have to suffer such humiliations
> and hassles to get a seat in the front half of the bus.  But what if
> blacks were 5% of the riding population and the local whites preferred
> that the black riders have to sing and tap dance for them while riding?
> It would be OK for the bus company to require that they do so, right?
> I'm sure you'll say yes, because that's what a free market is all about.
> Suppose the boycott didn't work because they could do without the 5% rider
> share in order to please their white customers.  Now the blacks either
> dance or walk.  Sounds bad, but I'll bet the free market has a cure ....
> yes, it's that another bus company will spring into existence to give
> rides to blacks.  But whites won't use the new buses, so they can only
> serve 5% of the people and have to run way less often.  Freedom in action.
> So it all works out -- the black people in a majority-white local dealing
> with racism and a racist bus company have to live with second-rate busing.
> Too Friggin' Bad.  Don't cry to me -- it's FREEDOM!  Let's keep government
> out of it.  Government is too restrictive.
>
>
> > I will disagree with your statement that with a free market, you get
> > what you get. I would say that with a free market, you get what is
> > offered. You can either negotiate for what you want, look for another
> > company that is offering what you are after, or build your own company
> > that does what you are looking to do (obvious market segment that is
> > being ignored). Add regulations to that, and now you are tying the hands
> > of any entrepreneur who is trying to provide a service to others.
>
> When you say "add regulations to that," what do you have in mind?  I'm
> unaware of rules preventing people from starting businesses that provide
> services.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 11:01:53 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:01:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <F8B957E3-F77B-44A1-B252-BC3202E20113@lizakowski.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<F8B957E3-F77B-44A1-B252-BC3202E20113@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiks9ezVTBuB07A7U1L3bdTPk5=8tovWuESvWxtR@mail.gmail.com>

Jeremy,
A company cannot regulate, they can only offer a service and abide by
contracts. A government is the only entity with a legal monopoly on the
initiation of force, hence it can regulate.

The difference being, with companies, you can choose, with government, you
are forced.

Simmons

On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 15:23, Jeremy <jeremy at lizakowski.com> wrote:

>
> Right now we have few Internet regulations.
>
> Companies want to change things, and impose regulations and fees upon
> is.
>
> The govt wants to make that illegal.
>
> One way or another, someone will be regulating part of our lives in
> the near future.
>
> Like in ghostbusters, we must choose our daemon.
>
> J
>
>
> Sent from my iPod.
> ...because my other device is a BB Storm.
>
>
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 11:09:50 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:09:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <4C6EA031.4030601@meltel.net>
References: <4C6D9759.8020604@beer.tclug.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEIIDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=Rz3J+ehWVzc72TsgdvVwRcEQF4bmcm_KNyx2q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EA031.4030601@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJ3-9kG0ZRR2vtMBQOcOJtjsrRDxMztiyTk-fk@mail.gmail.com>

I am mostly interested in this project due to my work with Defcon's Wall of
Sheep. Offering a public WiFi network that is more secure then current
offerings (thinking VPN tunnel after connecting to the network) would go far
in actually promoting secure computing.

Simmons

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:33, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:

> J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> > I am curious as to how much money we are looking at to get a prototype
> > WiMaxx up and running. I ask because an exciting class that I am
> > starting this semester has the students start a business with a
> > sizable grant from the U of M. I can easily see this as a decent
> > contender, not to mention an actually viable business model.
> > Does anyone have info on the public wifi that is offered downtown?
> >
> > Simmons
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 16:04, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net
> > <mailto:cncole at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >     > -----Original Message-----
> >     > From: tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
> >     <mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org>
> >     > [mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org
> >     <mailto:tcwug-list-bounces at tcwug.org>]On Behalf Of Jima
> >     >
> >     > On 08/19/2010 02:23 PM, r j wrote:
> >     > > I am willing to throw down $500.00 to start up a WiMAXX
> >     > community network.
> >     >
> >     >  What do you think this is, the Twin Cities Wireless Users Group?
> >     >
> >     >  Waaaiiit...
> >     >
> >     >      Jima
> >     >
> >
> >     I think he sez: BTDT
> >
> >
> >     Chuck
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> >     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> Can't give you an answer on downtown project, but you might be
> interested in Ypsilanti, Michigan.  Type the keywords, wireless mesh
> ypsilanti, into your favorite search engine, and follow the links.
> Basically, a couple of guys established a community-wide wireless mesh
> network that required no technical expertise to create and operate.
>
> Open-mesh.com works with low-income populations to establish wireless
> mesh networks and leverage Internet access by providers interested in
> gaining access to these "markets".
>
> If I were a hospital, I would purchase a $50 open-mesh unit, and then
> offer to set up a branded network for community residents to participate
> in telemedicine programs with my hospital.  Each house could spend $60
> to purchase a unit on my branded network.  The $60 fee is a one-time
> fee, and a nominal monthly fee for Internet access could be offered.  My
> upfront costs would be negligible, and, defraying the hospital's
> Internet costs would be attractive.
>
> Expanding on that concept, we have grocery stores, newspapers, local
> radio stations.  You name it.  Branded wireless mesh networks are the
> tip of the iceberg.  Let's say there's no Internet connection to a
> community wireless mesh network.  How about placing a virtual world
> application on a node, and setting up city hall offices to do their
> business?  Want a community town hall meeting with the audience
> including those who are in their homes?
>
> Anyway, the biggest obstacle to any of this, is the local/regional telco
> companies.  They hate this concept so much, they sue anyone even
> attempting it.  Monticello is a good case study.
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 11:13:05 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:13:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiks9ezVTBuB07A7U1L3bdTPk5=8tovWuESvWxtR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<F8B957E3-F77B-44A1-B252-BC3202E20113@lizakowski.com>
	<AANLkTiks9ezVTBuB07A7U1L3bdTPk5=8tovWuESvWxtR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=rFcFsqhHXDpPjYUi3gfH3me-QLh3AWkNtndyT@mail.gmail.com>

Just to reiterate my position, I am for Net Neutrality as an idea. I am
against government forcing it upon all business models. I firmly believe
that net neutrality can be obtained naturally due to public demand, instead
of passing more laws and possibly cutting off great business ideas. Not to
mention, how many times have we seen laws passed in this country with
exceptions granted for various entities or other riders added to the bill
for no reason?

Simmons
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From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 11:47:21 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:47:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200127520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=R2wn83D_4E3JdbeOdWoP7bhSQ7xTyiQOTSgLf@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJ5RM_hMTsL_Hn67jkbK-4Wx0ukNnw9sWvtNm-@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:09 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:
>
> > Actually I wasn't telling you what you ought to do with regard to net
> > neutrality.  I was asking you to think before doing anything.
>
> Back in reality, on Thu, 19 Aug 2010 at 10:41:41, you wrote, "Seems to me
> we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off us."
>
>
> > I ask you again to think hard about what the consequences of such
> > regulation might be.  If we outlaw content meddling by ISPs, will it
> > cause unmetered connection prices to go up or maybe be phased out more
> > quickly than they otherwise would be?  Will it affect the usability of
> > VoIP or video streaming?  If we're dead set on some regulation as the
> > solution, is there a way to craft it to minimize those effects?  Your
> > point (in another thread) that we don't even know how the regulation
> > would be worded isn't an argument for or against it, but it would
> > certainly make me think twice.  Surely you wouldn't support a regulation
> > that would affect the entire Internet so broadly without knowing every
> > letter of what's in it?
>
> Right -- we have to know what's in it before we oppose it or support it.
> This is what I've been saying and it is not what you were saying.  You
> might have meant to say something different, but your point was pretty
> clearly that government regulation will be bad, so we should oppose it.
>
> Fair enough.  You're right.  Oops!  :)
Yes, I reflexively distrust govt.  Maybe you don't.  I guess I should be
happy to just agree to disagree on that, as long as we can both agree that
the questions should be asked.  Which I think we do (below).


>
> I read a bunch of the stuff on this list today and a lot of it wasn't very
> impressive but I did like what Tony Yarusso wrote.  I liked it so much
> that I'm appending it below.  What's wrong with what Tony is saying?
>
> I like what he said too.  Let's grant his framing of the problem for a
minute for the sake of argument: the providers want to regulate [traffic],
and the govt wants to stop that regulation.  The problem, for me, is that in
order for the government to stop that regulation it has to put in regulation
[of provider behavior] of its own.  Seems to me that it's extremely
difficult, if not impossible, to just "cancel out" unwanted behavior without
ripple effects.  If you grant that, then the govt doesn't just cancel out
the providers' regulation [of traffic]; it introduces regulation of its
own.  So although I think Tony's model is certainly a desirable one I don't
think it's an attainable one, or at very least least not easily attainable.

Like you said, we don't have that regulatory language in front of us to
evaluate, but it just seems very likely to me that whatever the govt ends up
putting in place to regulate the providers' behavior will have unforeseen
negative effects.  Even if we define the problem narrowly enough to only
stop ISPs from blocking access to content, can that come back to bite us?
Will that stop ISPs from providing a value-add that might block customers'
access to phishing or malware sites?  What's going to be considered an ISP
-- will a "good guy" who blocks access to all kinds of sites, such as
OpenDNS, be affected?  (And if not, what's to stop ISPs from just
implementing their own independent OpenDNS-alike to get around the rule, and
then default to it as their DNS provider?)  What protocols will be affected
-- will it prevent ISPs from blocking direct SMTP sends from end-users to
non-ISP mail servers (which I don't particularly like, but supposedly cuts
down on automated spam)?

I think we're in agreement that all these questions have to be asked, but we
might be in disagreement as to whether the desired result can be gained
cleanly (or at all) using the govt intervention method.  Like I said, I'll
settle for just agreeing to disagree on that, as long as we can both agree
that the questions should be asked, so that everybody's got their eyes open
going into it.  Which I think we do.  Peace.

-Harry


> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:54:47
> From: Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com>
> Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
>
> Much of this discussion actually looks at things somewhat backward, IMO.
> The government would actually be the anti-regulation force here, and the
> ISPs the regulators.
>
> Consider this:
>
> One option is to have a free-flowing Internet where everything is equal,
> and just allowed to happen.  The "Information Superhighway" would be
> allowed to be a "free market" of ideas and content.
>
> The other option is to have business executives decide they want to reward
> some of that traffic and punish others, or favor some customers over
> others, or charge extra fees for certain uses while subsidizing others.
> No content is guaranteed passage, but rather must meet the particular
> rules set forth for it.
>
> Which one of those sounds like regulation to you?  Clearly it is the
> latter, which is the one done by ISPs, dictating which traffic will be
> "special" and which will be hindered.  The former is not regulation by the
> government, but a mandate that regulation must not be done by
> corporations.
>
> The first case, with free flow of information, is the hands-off approach
> that allowed the Internet to flourish.  The difference is that now the
> corporations have the technology to put a stop to that, so people are
> asking the government to intervene in order to protect the integrity of
> the Internet's nature as it has been from the beginning.
>
>  - Tony Yarusso
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 11:50:54 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:50:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=rFcFsqhHXDpPjYUi3gfH3me-QLh3AWkNtndyT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191128200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<F8B957E3-F77B-44A1-B252-BC3202E20113@lizakowski.com>
	<AANLkTiks9ezVTBuB07A7U1L3bdTPk5=8tovWuESvWxtR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=rFcFsqhHXDpPjYUi3gfH3me-QLh3AWkNtndyT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinTNU72a7jeHmk979vkLqcON-qrQkDgp_ytDAah@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:13 AM, J.A. Simmons V <simmonsj at redkeep.com>wrote:

> Just to reiterate my position, I am for Net Neutrality as an idea. I am
> against government forcing it upon all business models. I firmly believe
> that net neutrality can be obtained naturally due to public demand, instead
> of passing more laws and possibly cutting off great business ideas. Not to
> mention, how many times have we seen laws passed in this country with
> exceptions granted for various entities or other riders added to the bill
> for no reason?
>
> Simmons
>
> Wish I'd said that myself in the first place.   :P

Very nicely put!

-Harry
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From random at argle.org  Fri Aug 20 11:48:34 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:48:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>

On 08/19/2010 06:24 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> We first will have to fix a few of your initial assumptions.
>  
> The construct is not all knowning, does make mistakes but can be self
> correcting. It cannot be smarter then anything since it is not an actual
> entity capable of thinking. I will agree that it can't be smelled,
> touched, or heard, but neither can the concept of numbers. There are
> those that have trust and those that do not have trust in the
> construct. I will agree that it can start wars, just like it can spark
> exploration, drive the founding of a new colony that will then become
> the seed for a great superpower. More over, I will add that this
> concept is the closest thing to freedom that any known economic system
> can provide.
> 
While your presentation is true, so is Robert's. Many people have faith
in "The Free Market" at the level of religious fervor. The ideal of a
free market held up by these people is quite mythical, having never
existed and having no proof that it ever could exist beyond the most
trivial case.

On the other hand, well regulated markets have been proven to be better
at asset allocation than any centrally managed economy to date, simply
because the failings of human nature tend to cause more problems the
more concentrated any sort of power becomes.

>  
>  
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 17:25, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com
> <mailto:nesius at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     I'm thinking of a construct that is all knowing, never wrong, and
>     smarter than the human beings who arguably created it.  I'm thinking
>     of something that can't be seen, smelled, touched, or heard.  I'm
>     thinking of something that people believe exists with all of their
>     hearts.  I'm thinking of something that many people argue does not
>     exist.  I'm thinking of something that has the power to save us all,
>     or condemn us to eternal strife.  I'm thinking of something that is
>     used as a basis to start wars.  I'm thinking of something that is
>     worshiped on a daily basis.
> 



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 12:09:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:09:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinhqBLxX_9jBzxA4qHFr7N7KJ4N+NCr8+6Q=i_f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTinhqBLxX_9jBzxA4qHFr7N7KJ4N+NCr8+6Q=i_f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201206590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> A natural monopoly existed as ALCOA. They drove prices down in the aluminum
> market down by always looking to be more efficient in their processes and
> owning the patent that made aluminum smelting possible.
> Even though they were also competing against other building materials, the
> courts still found them guilty using the Antitrust Act.


Guilty of what?  It isn't illegal to be a monopoly in the sense that you 
have no competitors.  It is illegal to engage in anti-competitive 
activities to eliminate the competitors you have.  So what did they do?

Low prices can be anti-competitive.  For example, in Minnesota the price 
of gasoline can only go so low -- it is illegal to sell at below cost. 
Why not?  Because the bigger guys would use low prices to drive the little 
guys out of business, then, without competitors, they would jack the 
prices sky high.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 12:17:47 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:17:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik3gUuKF5i-9GoNbMDKx_E_LWANexy=6+NGCH0+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTik3gUuKF5i-9GoNbMDKx_E_LWANexy=6+NGCH0+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201210190.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> I was using the story to contradict your statement that the free-market
> could not fix the situation. There were two examples of the free-market
> fixing the situation, and I know that there are plenty more.

Sorry that I can't read more of your crap.  Just because some white store 
owner in some place decided it was in his interest to serve black 
customers doesn't mean that a free market "fixes" racism.  Why didn't a 
free market end slavery?  I'm sure you'll say something to the effect that 
the government supported slavery through laws.  Of course they did, but 
white slave owners were allowed to have such laws -- they wanted them, so 
they got them.  The only way to end slavery was for the government not to 
say, "we have no more slavery laws," but to make slavery illegal.  Yes, 
ending slavery required government intervention, in the US and in many 
other nations.

Please remember what my point is:  It is not that government is always 
good, it is that government regulations are not *necessarily* bad.  It 
depends.  Sometimes they are good and we need them.  I'm saying this to 
contradict the idea, presented by others on this list, that one ought to 
oppose all government regulation, even before seeing what the proposed 
regulation is.  Government regulations and laws of all sorts can be really 
good or really bad and it is up to us to look at the details and make a 
decision about what we want to support or fight against.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 12:31:06 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:31:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJ5RM_hMTsL_Hn67jkbK-4Wx0ukNnw9sWvtNm-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTimGRztoLhknF1N=5-4YAfUptPA9Hb9dwz7JvqyU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimRr6=aaPHG28J-9DZkr63JzY3aqCtbRnViXT75@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191642590.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<-2526257002272520581@unknownmsgid>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200127520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=R2wn83D_4E3JdbeOdWoP7bhSQ7xTyiQOTSgLf@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008200252130.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikJ5RM_hMTsL_Hn67jkbK-4Wx0ukNnw9sWvtNm-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201221020.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Harry Penner wrote:

> Yes, I reflexively distrust govt.  Maybe you don't.  I guess I should be 
> happy to just agree to disagree on that, as long as we can both agree 
> that the questions should be asked.  Which I think we do (below).

Sure, I don't work by reflex.  I'm more thoughtful about it.


>> I read a bunch of the stuff on this list today and a lot of it wasn't 
>> very impressive but I did like what Tony Yarusso wrote.  I liked it so 
>> much that I'm appending it below.  What's wrong with what Tony is 
>> saying?
>
> I like what he said too.  Let's grant his framing of the problem for a 
> minute for the sake of argument: the providers want to regulate 
> [traffic], and the govt wants to stop that regulation.  The problem, for 
> me, is that in order for the government to stop that regulation it has 
> to put in regulation [of provider behavior] of its own.  Seems to me 
> that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to just "cancel out" 
> unwanted behavior without ripple effects.

I'd have to see the proposal.  There are always ripple effects, in a 
sense, but they might be good ripple effects.  For example, a net 
neutrality regulation might give the big telcos less reason to try to buy 
up all the providers and create a massive internet conglomerate that 
controls what we see and manipulates the government through lobbying and 
massive campaign contributions.


> If you grant that, then the govt doesn't just cancel out the providers' 
> regulation [of traffic]; it introduces regulation of its own.  So 
> although I think Tony's model is certainly a desirable one I don't think 
> it's an attainable one, or at very least least not easily attainable.

Well, that isn't much of an argument -- you don't think it's attainable. 
So what?  If you were a top expert and a business professor with a law 
degree who specialized in internet business, then I'd care about your 
unsupported opinion, but only a little bit.  I need more facts and 
information.


> Like you said, we don't have that regulatory language in front of us to 
> evaluate, but it just seems very likely to me that whatever the govt 
> ends up putting in place to regulate the providers' behavior will have 
> unforeseen negative effects.  Even if we define the problem narrowly 
> enough to only stop ISPs from blocking access to content, can that come 
> back to bite us? Will that stop ISPs from providing a value-add that 
> might block customers' access to phishing or malware sites?  What's 
> going to be considered an ISP -- will a "good guy" who blocks access to 
> all kinds of sites, such as OpenDNS, be affected?  (And if not, what's 
> to stop ISPs from just implementing their own independent OpenDNS-alike 
> to get around the rule, and then default to it as their DNS provider?) 
> What protocols will be affected -- will it prevent ISPs from blocking 
> direct SMTP sends from end-users to non-ISP mail servers (which I don't 
> particularly like, but supposedly cuts down on automated spam)?
>
> I think we're in agreement that all these questions have to be asked, 
> but we might be in disagreement as to whether the desired result can be 
> gained cleanly (or at all) using the govt intervention method.  Like I 
> said, I'll settle for just agreeing to disagree on that, as long as we 
> can both agree that the questions should be asked, so that everybody's 
> got their eyes open going into it.  Which I think we do.  Peace.

Exactly -- we have to take a careful look at the details of any proposed 
regulatory solution and see what the expert arguments are on all sides. 
I always like to hear what Stallman thinks, for one, and I'm sure he'll 
have a lot to say about any proposal.  He's big into freedom, like me and 
you.

Mike


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 13:00:17 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm afraid I missed the hearing, but there is one comment I need to make.  

Government regulation is not the the panacea that some want to make it.  I'm an 
amatur rocketeer and we (National Association of Rocketry and the Tripoli 
Rocketry) just completed a 7 year law suite against the ATF, costing the 
organizations over a million dollars, just to get the ATF to remove our primary 
rocket fuel off the low explosives list (since it wasn't).  Being on the list 
required all of us to submit to a ATF background check (including finger 
printing and photographs) as well as some pretty tough and expensive regulations 
on storage and record keeping.  All this for something that was no more 
explosive than a railroad flair.  


So you have a choice, let Google control the internet, or let the FCC.  In my 
opinion, the government should keep their nose our.  Look at what the FCC was 
doing with their "fairness doctrine", which squashed freedom of speech on the  
commercial radio and TV networks for many years.

And of course, leave it to Frankin to dig this up in an election year, not so 
much for himself, but for all the other candidates he's trying to get elected.

 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis





________________________________
From: Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Thu, August 19, 2010 11:30:50 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota

Feel free to call me cynical after you read this :)

In general i am a fan of net neutrality, i think corporate interests (greed
for money) will eventual lead to many companies elbowing out smaller or
undesireable voices from their large scale networks. on the other hand it is
a delicate situation because if a company invests in its own deployment of
network infrastructure why are they not allowed to divvy up access however
they like? the problem to me is these massive monopolies or even co-opolies
(is that a word?) will work for what their best interests are which
frequently will result in taking advantage of customers every chance they
get. then only after long and tiring government and private investigations,
court involvements, watch dog marketing campaigns, etc will there be a "take
it easy on the customers" change of attitude (at least enough change to stop
the onslaught). The importance of the internet to the world i think means we
need to have some regulation on companies involved in connecting the
internet. it is not just a little side project/hobby/convenience for people
and companies, it is massively critical for large swaths of the population.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is another
challenging issue regarding personal rights, including "corporate personal
rights", and public good and "public rights". There are many examples of
this in history. Freedom, rights, responsibilities, value systems, beliefs,
nothing is easy when dealing with a large enough scales.

I tend to believe the strong pressure for companies to make money will not
result in a better internet overall if significant portions of the internet
are unevenly balanced with the sole reason being an advertiser is willing to
pay for it. The tight integration of the internet into more and more aspects
of our lives is making it more and more an important part of our
infrastructure and less and less a convenience/luxury.

We need to be careful and having OPEN and FREE public discussions are
critically important. I am glad there are non trivial people attending this
like the FCC commissioners and Senator Franken and other prominent
individuals. The people need to be heard no matter their viewpoint. 

As for the recent google/Verizon publicity, as far as I know they neither of
those companies have the rights to form, enact, or police government
regulations. As I understand it they are just making a proposal, which if
passed into law by our government would likely go thru tons of revisions
during their procedures of creating laws.

Wish I could go tonight but I have other commitments already.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota

I found the guy pushing regulation (or in this case, making the unofficial
stance official) today on MPR was way off base.

He said that an independent blogger would have no voice without paying money
in the proposal by Google and Verizon. In my experience, this is not true;
they just won't reap the benefits of people getting their content at the
speed which their provider provides.

I can afford a 12Mbit/2Mbit line at home now. Cheaper than colocation of my
custom server (capacity right now of 7TB, soon 14TB) because I don't have
$15,000 to spend on the rack space requirements for the servers plus the
monthly colocation costs for 2U to 8U of space.

My two bits.
--
Ryan

On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Harry, I think that's a very important point to make. There was a
> diary on DailyKos about the recent dustup over the Google/Verizon
> story:
> 
>
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/12/892044/-End-of-the-Internet-As-W
e-Know-It!
> 
> In short, it was broadly misreported by folks on the left. The story
> looked on the surface like a big corporations doing evil things story
> and so it got reported that way.
> 
> In the process, the concept of net neutrality became redefined. Media
> outlets were defining it as saying that different content TYPES should
> be treated equally, rather than different content providers.
> Obviously, if this definition of net neutrality took hold, it would be
> bad -- especially in wireless. If you have a minute, read the diary.
> The dkos guy does a better job of explaining it than I can.
> 
> My hope is that there are people at this hearing that know what
> they're talking about, who will stand up and make a good case. I don't
> think more regulation on the internet would be a good thing. However,
> I support net neutrality, in that every person's or company's data
> should get the same priority as anyone else's (given the same type of
> content).
> 
> Anyway, it's a tough issue to get your head around, especially for the
> layperson. And unfortunately, Congress is full of laypeople.
> 
> Long live Ted Stevens,
> 
> -Erik
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> At the risk of flames:  the Internet as we know it has flourished in
>> large part because its original sponsor, the federal government, has
>> mostly left it alone.  Why do we think adding government regulations
>> to it will make it better (or preserve the freedom we enjoy on it)?
>> Generally speaking, doesn't regulation take away freedom rather than
>> increasing it, by definition?  I'm no futurist but it seems to me that
>> putting restrictions on the big guys is likely to affect us little
>> guys in some unforeseen but unpleasant way.
>> 
>> Sorry if the above sounds trollish but I just think we should be
>> careful what we ask  for.  With companies you can usually vote with
>> your feet to try to change or avoid their bad behavior, but
>> regulations are usually universal and forever...  And the regs will
>> surely by written by people not nearly as close to or as thoughtful
>> about the problem as we tclug'ers...
>> 
>> Seems to me we ought to show up and tell the FCC to keep their paws off
us.
>> 
>> -Harry
>> 
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 9:52, Brian <goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> There will be a hearing on the Net Neutrality here in the Twin Cities.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://savetheinternet.com/mnhearing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I am not associated with this, just thought people would be interested
>>> to know.
>>> 
>>> ==>brian.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



      
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From random at argle.org  Fri Aug 20 13:44:08 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:44:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>	<9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C6ECCF8.2070905@argle.org>

On 08/20/2010 01:00 PM, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> I'm afraid I missed the hearing, but there is one comment I need to make. 
> 
> Government regulation is not the the panacea that some want to make it. 
> I'm an amatur rocketeer and we (National Association of Rocketry and the
> Tripoli Rocketry) just completed a 7 year law suite against the ATF,
> costing the organizations over a million dollars, just to get the ATF to
> remove our primary rocket fuel off the low explosives list (since it
> wasn't).  Being on the list required all of us to submit to a ATF
> background check (including finger printing and photographs) as well as
> some pretty tough and expensive regulations on storage and record
> keeping.  All this for something that was no more explosive than a
> railroad flair. 
> 
Yes, government regulation is sometimes bad. You highlight a prime
example of that.

Corporate regulation is almost always worse, especially when a
for-profit corporation has the ability to control your access to
information and products.

Not all regulations come from the government, and the whole point of Net
Neutrality is to keep corporations that provide physical access to the
Internet from imposing their own regulations on how their end-users may
use it.

-- 
Dan


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Fri Aug 20 13:48:13 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:48:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality OT(off topic)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Xc_eUT2GVCnLOz5=99ELYGET18AUhrBHvv0Cv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUwt2zcTZa8Voi_eMXdN_-25xPxN+Jc8UFk6mP@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191500390.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=Xc_eUT2GVCnLOz5=99ELYGET18AUhrBHvv0Cv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6ECDED.9050302@beer.tclug.org>

 Ignoring the flame war and focusing on consumer education...

On 08/19/2010 04:17 PM, Harry Penner wrote:
> Where's my web/TV integration?  Why can't I tell my TV to show me
where all my
> family members' phones are on a GPS map?

 I think the web browsers on both my PS3 and Wii could interact with
Google Latitude.  Surely other devices could do the same.

> Why can't I have a device on my phone line that works with my cell phone 
> to seamlessly switch between cell and land line as I deem appropriate?

 There exist cordless phones that can be tethered to your cell phone via
Bluetooth, enabling the functionality you describe.

 Maybe the problem isn't the ability to innovate, but the ability to
communicate those innovations to the public. ;-)

     Jima


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 14:08:39 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:08:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com><-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid><AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201408080.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Wayne Johnson wrote:

> Government regulation is not the the panacea that some want to make it.

Please tell us who said that government regulation is a panacea.

Mike


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Fri Aug 20 14:16:55 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:16:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: native ipv6
In-Reply-To: <4C608842.5070507@gmail.com>
References: <4C608842.5070507@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C6ED4A7.3010704@beer.tclug.org>

On 08/09/2010 05:59 PM, thaunderdog wrote:
> Any local ISP's that offer native ipv6 routing?
> 
> No 4to6, 6in4, teredo, etc tunnels.
> 
> Qwest == FAIL

 Whoops, how did I overlook this?

 I recall (and have confirmed via logs) having a conversation back in
2007 with a local LUGger (who I'll refrain from naming), who indicated
that ipHouse was providing him with a 100% native IPv6 connection via
DSL -- albeit with modified router firmware on his end (OpenWRT on an
ActionTec GT701).  Aside from that, I'm still waiting to hear about
ANYONE making progress. :-\

     Jima


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 20 14:20:47 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:20:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <79137256-A7F4-4C86-BD67-6AEDAC959806@me.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGEJEDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
  Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:29 AM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


  Chuck:
  Exposing them?


  Did you read anything there? Or just assume that USI would have unsecured transmissions of the information?


I'm not so naive as to believe those connections are truly secure in all ways.  Harvesting the data is the problem.  Harvested data
can leak or be disclosed or stolen in many ways.  Superficial security does not insure anything when servers are attacked or break
in babbling modes, etc.  I think such systems are bad alternatives to types we already have.  My cell phone gives me internet
access, qnd is probably a much more secure pipe than any public WiMax could be, since it begins with a hardware key and adds more
keys.  WiMax may offer better data rate, but my call has more locations, and good free hotspots are still widely available when I
need better bandwidth.  For now, free hotspots are likely to be far more prevalent than public WiMax spots.  I see only downsides to
WiMax, especially if coax/fiber broadband and TV still feeds the home or business.  YMMV.

Chuck




  On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Cole wrote:


    -----Original Message-----
    From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
    Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
    To: TCLUG Mailing List
    Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


      http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832


      http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/


      http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010



    Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the
same as free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet
seats in public restrooms are really clean, right?


    Chuck



      On Aug 19, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Chuck Cole wrote:


        How does one identify where the free zones are?  These services are bad for non-residents, because they discourage free
zones being installed so those who only visit on business can use it - or go to another city that has more free spots.

        Chuck
    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 20 14:20:48 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:20:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <BEFFB0EF-3496-4CDB-9057-D85EB4CB5786@me.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEJEDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
  Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 10:34 AM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


  Brain misfire - just woke up. Disclose is NOT expose.


  I retract my email.


Better  :-)




  On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Ryan Coleman wrote:


    Chuck:
    Exposing them?


    Did you read anything there? Or just assume that USI would have unsecured transmissions of the information?




    On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Cole wrote:


      -----Original Message-----
      From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ryan Coleman
      Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
      To: TCLUG Mailing List
      Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx


        http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832


        http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/


        http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010



      Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not
the same as free and open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.  We're supposed to believe that toilet
seats in public restrooms are really clean, right?


      Chuck
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 20 16:58:30 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:58:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimF19KYx3wNhAg_O+tzBSNu3q7Lqj_O1VK10bch@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid> <4C6D5BD9.80405@meltel.net>
	<-6150351577650404946@unknownmsgid> <4C6D649E.7010602@meltel.net>
	<1282238517.7889.1390751781@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<AANLkTimOff-g8zZszeOytnYA5oSvCMXDp4MTihiY8gY2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikDU4G14ndEcnnt4s-_-=8kP5hR+4veHVSpV=ft@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikfKM_QhQjxkzrwFOLdz_o1hBN-GbNx=oLwzMLz@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191659380.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikrkU2OUc6==oOVp5=Yrvz8wo-4NNiBQ-NkAJf2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008191818220.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTik3gUuKF5i-9GoNbMDKx_E_LWANexy=6+NGCH0+@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201210190.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTimF19KYx3wNhAg_O+tzBSNu3q7Lqj_O1VK10bch@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimx7zqYRxCvU8a4fU82KO=1Z-LcQ_KtqTHTe_Lj@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,
Too bad that you didn't read the rest of my "crap" because I made the same
point you just did, within the first paragraph. But if you feel that you can
no longer defend your position, that is fine. That is acceptable.  (Of
course referring to my defense as "crap", along with all the other
disperaging remarks you have made through out this thread, pretty much tells
me and everone else what we need to know.)
It is too bad because I really wanted to hear your response to the extent of
force that government is allowed to use that I posed in my last response.

Simmons

This message was sent from my android phone.

On Aug 20, 2010 12:24 PM, "Mike Miller"
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> I was using the story to contradict your statement tha...
Sorry that I can't read more of your crap.  Just because some white store
owner in some place decided it was in his interest to serve black
customers doesn't mean that a free market "fixes" racism.  Why didn't a
free market end slavery?  I'm sure you'll say something to the effect that
the government supported slavery through laws.  Of course they did, but
white slave owners were allowed to have such laws -- they wanted them, so
they got them.  The only way to end slavery was for the government not to
say, "we have no more slavery laws," but to make slavery illegal.  Yes,
ending slavery required government intervention, in the US and in many
other nations.

Please remember what my point is:  It is not that government is always
good, it is that government regulations are not *necessarily* bad.  It
depends.  Sometimes they are good and we need them.  I'm saying this to
contradict the idea, presented by others on this list, that one ought to
oppose all government regulation, even before seeing what the proposed
regulation is.  Government regulations and laws of all sorts can be really
good or really bad and it is up to us to look at the details and make a
decision about what we want to support or fight against.


Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Mi...
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From Troy.A.Johnson at state.mn.us  Fri Aug 20 17:02:44 2010
From: Troy.A.Johnson at state.mn.us (Johnson, Troy.A (MDH))
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:02:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was RE:
 tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:17:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201210190.16123 at taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

"Sorry that I can't read more of your crap."

I like less attitude with my dime store economics.

Tone it down, please.



From progressivepenguin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:21:17 2010
From: progressivepenguin at gmail.com (Steve T)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:21:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Johnson, Troy.A (MDH)
<Troy.A.Johnson at state.mn.us> wrote:
>
> I like less attitude with my dime store economics.
>
> Tone it down, please.
>
I second that emotion.  This is still a Linux list, correct?


-- 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!"
-- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:23:41 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:23:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201721150.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Johnson, Troy.A (MDH) wrote:

> "Sorry that I can't read more of your crap."
>
> I like less attitude with my dime store economics.
>
> Tone it down, please.


Sorry, sir.  I should not have used the dreaded c-word.  Next time I will 
call it "inane drivel."

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 20 17:29:30 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:29:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201721150.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201721150.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <C739B7D2-B749-489D-BD93-BBC05AE01121@me.com>


On Aug 20, 2010, at 5:23 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> Sorry, sir.  I should not have used the dreaded c-word.  Next time I will 
> call it "inane drivel."

The rest of us just quite reading the thread, Mike. I recommend that you do the same.


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:29:35 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:29:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
	<AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201725520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Steve T wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Johnson, Troy.A (MDH)
> <Troy.A.Johnson at state.mn.us> wrote:
>>
>> I like less attitude with my dime store economics.
>>
>> Tone it down, please.
>
> I second that emotion.  This is still a Linux list, correct?

The last couple of posts seem to suggest it is now a list about who said 
"crap."

Isn't it easier to just delete messages from a certain thread than to 
start a new thread abotu how you didn't like the other thread?  What if 
someone doesn't like this noew "Crap was Net Neutrality" thread?  What if 
they don't like the sanctimonious attitude of the new anti-crap brigade? 
Should they start a new thread about how we shouldn't be wasting our time 
with anti-crap nonsense?

Seriously, the best plan is (A) ignore it and it will go away, combined 
with (B) start threads about Linux topics that don't mention this other 
"crap" at all.  It will all work out.

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 20 17:34:31 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:34:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201725520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
	<AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201725520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <9D810E67-A86E-4F54-96A8-5D435641BE46@me.com>


On Aug 20, 2010, at 5:29 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> Seriously, the best plan is (A) ignore it and it will go away, combined 
> with (B) start threads about Linux topics that don't mention this other 
> "crap" at all.  It will all work out.

Agreed. Start doing that now, Mike, since you didn't after the last message.


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:45:08 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:45:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota
In-Reply-To: <907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <4C6D452C.9050607@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<-7772235945379762327@unknownmsgid>
	<AANLkTinUedR4EREZwWdYxoVw7ok81AYyUz2tsnsBj7OO@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BA1A141-1115-4703-85DD-423524946657@me.com>
	<9AC719703488423B843505E30CD90024@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<907951.92472.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSHE0d7vVFi4vStpST9d+smOdCAGoe3a0X1MwU@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> And of course, leave it to Frankin to dig this up in an election year, not
> so much for himself, but for all the other candidates he's trying to get
> elected.

To be fair, we've reached the point in the US where EVERY year is "an
election year".  We already had a full half of them having actual
Congressional elections on the calendar, and then our stupid-long
campaign seasons have dragged the off-years into the same cycle.
There is no time when someone isn't campaigning any more.

 - Tony Yarusso


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:43:57 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:43:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <9D810E67-A86E-4F54-96A8-5D435641BE46@me.com>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
	<AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201725520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<9D810E67-A86E-4F54-96A8-5D435641BE46@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201743280.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2010, at 5:29 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Seriously, the best plan is (A) ignore it and it will go away, combined 
>> with (B) start threads about Linux topics that don't mention this other 
>> "crap" at all.  It will all work out.
>
> Agreed. Start doing that now, Mike, since you didn't after the last 
> message.


Sorry, I can't read this because I just stopped reading bossy messages.

Mike


From progressivepenguin at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 17:58:08 2010
From: progressivepenguin at gmail.com (Steve T)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:58:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 RE: tclug-list Digest, Vol 68, Issue 41
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201743280.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.23381.1282327317.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3A79CDD441C0204EA1D73D3FC5C065D501BBF83E95@MNMAIL04.ead.state.mn.us>
	<AANLkTimOng1VL26+YFf1GZFVmvNnTm+c8Hx3A7kJvV_i@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201725520.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<9D810E67-A86E-4F54-96A8-5D435641BE46@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008201743280.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinN8xr9tcmXCJ4aw0zD7jAyG3ULGLJrSo+AVDBk@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I can't read this because I just stopped reading bossy messages.
>
> Mike
>

Wow.  You certainly told us.  I'm sure we all learned our lesson.

-- 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!"
-- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 18:22:18 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:22:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crap was Net Neutrality hearing in Minnesota was
 ...
Message-ID: <1282346538.13026.11.camel@robert-desktop>

Behave children!



From sulrich at botwerks.org  Fri Aug 20 18:43:14 2010
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:43:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: native ipv6
Message-ID: <80D80718-1120-45C4-ABC1-862BC4D25CE4@botwerks.org>

the other alternative is to do what everyone else does and get a tunnel from hurricane electric.

comcast has been doing some trials in a number of markets. you can register to participate in their trial at ...    http://www.comcast6.net/

back on the day (read late 90s) you could get tunnel endpoints from visi. i don't know what the iphouse crew are doing these days but they're a pretty clueful bunch and would likely hook you up if you asked real nice.  

-- 
steve ulrich 

On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:

> On 08/09/2010 05:59 PM, thaunderdog wrote:
>> Any local ISP's that offer native ipv6 routing?
>> 
>> No 4to6, 6in4, teredo, etc tunnels.
>> 
>> Qwest == FAIL
> 
> Whoops, how did I overlook this?
> 
> I recall (and have confirmed via logs) having a conversation back in
> 2007 with a local LUGger (who I'll refrain from naming), who indicated
> that ipHouse was providing him with a 100% native IPv6 connection via
> DSL -- albeit with modified router firmware on his end (OpenWRT on an
> ActionTec GT701).  Aside from that, I'm still waiting to hear about
> ANYONE making progress. :-\
> 
>    Jima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 20:35:33 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:35:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinB377aM0kCBbvSZiTbgQS4Gd9m4fQ1xQ2PzZo7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

> On 08/19/2010 06:24 PM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> > We first will have to fix a few of your initial assumptions.
> >
> > The construct is not all knowning, does make mistakes but can be self
> > correcting. It cannot be smarter then anything since it is not an actual
> > entity capable of thinking. I will agree that it can't be smelled,
> > touched, or heard, but neither can the concept of numbers. There are
> > those that have trust and those that do not have trust in the
> > construct. I will agree that it can start wars, just like it can spark
> > exploration, drive the founding of a new colony that will then become
> > the seed for a great superpower. More over, I will add that this
> > concept is the closest thing to freedom that any known economic system
> > can provide.
> >
> While your presentation is true, so is Robert's. Many people have faith
> in "The Free Market" at the level of religious fervor. The ideal of a
> free market held up by these people is quite mythical, having never
> existed and having no proof that it ever could exist beyond the most
> trivial case.
>

That was really my point.  Thanks for nailing it squarely on the head.

Quick follow ups to some of J.A. Simmons' points...

J.A. Simmons wrote:
JAS > I will agree that it can't be smelled, touched, or heard, but neither
can the concept of numbers.

Numbers quantify and measure.  They don't prescribe.

JAS > There are those that have trust and those that do not have trust in
the construct.

Interestingly, while we would do well to not blindly trust interpretations
of numbers, we generally don't need to question numbers themselves, do we?
That observation casts your comment in the light of a strawman defense,
which is a type of misdirection.

JAS> More over, I will add that this concept is the closest thing to freedom
that any known economic system can provide.

It is also a model that has enabled tyranny and oppression - a lack of
freedom.

-Rob
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Sun Aug 22 09:17:01 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:17:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel,
I will agree that there is a lot of religious mysticism regarding the
concept that is a free market, both for and against. I have met a lot of
irrationality on both sides, and most of it comes from a lack of actual
research and logical thinking. Does laissez-faire have problems, of course
it does, as does every system, but I hold that it is the fairest system that
we have at this time.

I have ran into a lot of pro-free market mystics that are attached to the
tea party movement, and do not actually do any research or otherwise
rational thinking about the subject and it consequences. These are usually
the people who blindly follow the talking heads, do no fact checking or
conduct any further research, and forward anti-Obama emails like it is
actual breaking news. These people cannot accurately defend the concept of a
free-market because they do not understand it.

On the other side, there are the anti-free market mystics who live the
motto, "in current government we trust". As long as they are happy with who
is in office, they believe that the current administration can fix all the
problems and that the regulations could not possibly have a downside. (I am
of course using the terms generally, because you can apply these to any
administration, from Regan to Clinton to Bush and Obama.)

I would say I haven't actually seen evidence of either side on this board,
so don't worry, I am not trying to flame anyone here.

As you pointed out, an actual free market has never actually existed that I
am aware of (possibly during early human evolution when everything was done
by bartering). There is of course plenty of evidence of both centralized
economies failing miserably, and regulated economies failing (current
economy anyone?). With this history, a lot of people seem to believe that
more regulations, leading closer to a centralized system, is the answer. I
ask, why not move away from the government controlled systems? Why believe
that a small group of men in D.C. can fix the problems of a system with >303
million moving parts? People also neglect the cost this takes away from the
ideal that is freedom, with various restrictions on how to conduct
business. I will be the first to proclaim that there will be some bad eggs
in the batch under a laissez-faire system. There will be people who are
going to try and take advantage of the weaker. The leading difference is
that without government regulations, favors, or mandates, those "weaker"
have all the opportunity to find a different vendor, seek retribution
through the legal system, or start a new business to address the needs that
are being neglected. With the government regulations, everyone's hands are
tied, without considerable legal battles against the government (which will
use tax payer money to fight) trying to change a bad law. This was
illustrated by the railroad monopolies in California around the turn of the
20th century. Competitors could not enter San Fransciso (Southern Pacific
Railroad and a handful or others) because of government mandates. This
unnatural monopoly, which existed only due to gov't favors and not on the
quality of their service, destroyed the communities that relied on freight
traffic.

You mention that a regulated gov't is a better at asset allocation then a
centralized government, and I would agree. But, why is it better? Is it
because it is more free? Because those that actually need the resources will
pay the higher market price to do something productive with that resource
instead of just hording it under an unnaturally lower price due to
government intervention or distribution. I will admit that there will be
some cases of hoarders in a laissez-faire system, but their other resources
(mainly money) will quickly dwindle as a result. Hording does not give
anyone a return on investment. So the question to ponder, which system
allows the greatest freedom?

Robert,
You mention how a free-market leads to tyranny and oppression. Could
you expound on that? I am confused as to your statement since tyranny and
oppression can only exist by the application of force, which only the
government can apply and codify within a society ( a company applying force,
would be illegal by all the democratic societies that I know of). The only
way that tyranny and oppression can exist in such a
"free-market" scenario would be because of government
regulation committing the actions to law, which would not be a free market
at that point. Do you have a specific example?

Regards,

Simmons

PS

As an extra point outside of the long email above, have you ever considered
what is money? It is not the value gold like most people consider (even in a
gold standard economy). Even on a gold standard, the value of a dollar
still fluctuated. Money is a meter of trade. It replaced the long drawn out
process of bartering, to allow more freedom in the goods and services
exchanged. Look at the history and current valuation of money. The US values
its money by determining how much staples (eggs, bread, etc) it can
purchase. Money by itself is worthless, it is only in the context of
productive trade that it retains any value. If the US dollar was to become
useless, I easily foresee a system of bartering to spring up almost
overnight, until a stable substitute can be found. Take the following story
as an idea instead of as actual historical truth.
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=1826
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 17:58:46 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:58:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008221758040.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> On the other side, there are the anti-free market mystics who live the 
> motto, "in current government we trust". As long as they are happy with 
> who is in office, they believe that the current administration can fix 
> all the problems and that the regulations could not possibly have a 
> downside.

I have never met such a person.

Mike


From tompoe at meltel.net  Sun Aug 22 19:55:39 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:55:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski at UM on Tuesday?
Message-ID: <4C71C70B.2090008@meltel.net>

Is there a meeting on Tuesday at the UM Carlson School of Management 
with Klobuchar/Genachowski (FCC) at 10AM?  Best way to get there from 
out of town?  Bus?
Tom Poe, Eden Valley


From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Aug 22 20:03:58 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:03:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski at UM on Tuesday?
In-Reply-To: <4C71C70B.2090008@meltel.net>
References: <4C71C70B.2090008@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <4F392A78-EF47-45BB-9F3A-C2BA39A3A227@me.com>

The CSM is on the west bank, just off Washington and 35W (just north of I-94).

For a 10AM event, traffic would be fine coming in to the metro between 8:45 and 9:30. You should be fine.

You'd take the Cedar exit off the Washington underpass/microhighway.

On Aug 22, 2010, at 7:55 PM, Tom Poe wrote:

> Is there a meeting on Tuesday at the UM Carlson School of Management 
> with Klobuchar/Genachowski (FCC) at 10AM?  Best way to get there from 
> out of town?  Bus?
> Tom Poe, Eden Valley
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From mfunger at arbita.net  Mon Aug 23 09:46:24 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew Unger)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:46:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEJEDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <BEFFB0EF-3496-4CDB-9057-D85EB4CB5786@me.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEJEDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCyKdVq2_CDAsGOSYJvXf83Y1vny+w72Xw6TAq@mail.gmail.com>

I'd definitely be interested in talking about a mesh network as well, not
only from a technical standpoint, but a business standpoint as well.
Kindly include me in your future discussions.
Cheers,
Matt

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]*On Behalf Of *Ryan Coleman
> *Sent:* Friday, August 20, 2010 10:34 AM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
>
> Brain misfire - just woke up. Disclose is NOT expose.
>
> I retract my email.
>
>
>
> Better  :-)
>
>
>
>  On Aug 20, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>
>  Chuck:
> Exposing them?
>
> Did you read anything there? Or just assume that USI would have unsecured
> transmissions of the information?
>
>
>  On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]*On Behalf Of *Ryan Coleman
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:05 PM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] [tcwug-list] WiMaxx
>
> http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=971832
>
>
> http://www.muniwireless.com/2010/07/01/need-credit-card-for-free-wifi-in-minneapolis/
>
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=minneapolis+free+wireless+announcement+July+2010
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, but disclosing credit card IDs in and to public sites isn't
> attractive to me, even if sometimes presumed safe.  Not the same as free and
> open hotspots we already have.  NOT a desirable plan or function, IMHO.
> We're supposed to believe that toilet seats in public restrooms are really
> clean, right?
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From random at argle.org  Mon Aug 23 10:35:14 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:35:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C729532.8070707@argle.org>

This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.

On 08/22/2010 09:17 AM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
> Daniel,
> I will agree that there is a lot of religious mysticism regarding the
> concept that is a free market, both for and against. I have met a lot of
> irrationality on both sides, and most of it comes from a lack of actual
> research and logical thinking. Does laissez-faire have problems, of
> course it does, as does every system, but I hold that it is the fairest
> system that we have at this time. 
> 
The fundamental problem with laissez-faire is actually the same as the
problem with governmental control. A significant portion of the human
population has a desire to maximize their personal power.

Any system that does not have explicit checks on their ability to do so
will eventually devolve into some form of tyranny when one of these
individuals finally succeeds in surpassing the ability of any other
individual or group to suppress them. Even systems that do have such
checks may fail over time, but they tend to be much longer lived and
present a more stable environment until they fail.

It is really exactly as simple as that, and this tendency is well known
and has been recognized for centuries. It is in fact one of the primary
principles behind the division of powers in the US Constitution.

Thus, while it is obvious that too much government causes problems and
misallocation of resources, it is equally clear that too little
government will have the same result. The path for maximal market
freedom is therefore one in which both extreme wealth and extreme
poverty are guarded against as related evils, as well as providing a
framework for the consistent punishment of fraud.

Not touching the money question right now. I might come back to it later.

-- 
Dan


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Mon Aug 23 16:15:34 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:15:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpi=a=WQ9FTiZmNS_OCsrqy8h8X12UsUMP0GDU@mail.gmail.com>

I am always down for a civil debate, no matter then venue.

As we both pointed out, yes, there are going to be portions of
the population that are going to be greedy. But that doesn't mean that it is
bad to be selfish. (this leads into a long ethics discussion, but I will not
get into that at this time.) Does trying to punish a small percentage of
greedy individuals make it right to force the entire population into
regulations that will hamper their freedom? I hold firm that the judicial
system is sufficient in dealing with any actual illegal activities (i.e. the
unwarranted use of force or fraud, breech of contract, etc.). The idea
of helping out the "less fortunate businesses" at the detriment to the more
successful businesses is an atrocity in my view. (Bailouts,
non-competition zones, etc.)
Now, I will admit that there have been plenty of businesses and individuals
that have committed fraud, and they should be punished severely for such a
crime. But adding more regulation, to cover an issue that is already covered
by existing laws is ridiculous to me. Adding regulations to "protect" the
public from a contract that they have to voluntarily agree to, is stepping
over my freedoms to choose what is in my best interest. It is not the
governments position to protect me from my own decisions. If I am forced
into a decision, then that is the use of force by defination, and I would
classify that as illegal. We cannot spend our time protecting the stupid
from companies. If you want to figh that battle, then you need to first
focus on protecting the stupid from the government. (Old laws that are not
applicable, but still enforcable, cryptic laws, obscure laws).

Furthermore, I will hold that regulations do nothing to actually provide a
"fair" environment but just codifies what can and cannot be punished in a
subset of actual laws. This environment ties the hands of the honest, and
provides a framework that the dishonest will try and skirt around (bend but
do not break these "laws"). Taking it further, those that are really
dishonest, will out right break the laws, and cover it up. Leading to more
regulations, further tying the hands of the honest individuals even more.
(Look at the cause and results of the Enron scandal and the Standard Oil
Company fear that lead to the Anti-trust act) In the case of the Enron
scandal, there was already a regulator body (the SEC) with its set of
regulations. What Enron did was blantly illegal, as proven by the fact that
those accountable were convicted with criminal charges. And what was the
outcome? More regulations. The regulations that existed, punished the
guilty, and all that needed to happen was the SEC needed to focus more on
doing its job. Instead, we add more paperwork, add more hurdles for everyone
to jump through, inconvience everyone, instead of pushing the SEC to abide
by the already existing regulations. This society seems to be in the mindset
of, someone messed up, so we need to add more hoops for everyone to jump
through, instead of focusing on the entity that failed us. (Energy
Department and our continued dependence on forgien oil anyone?) If the
current entities cannot fulfill their original mission, what makes you think
that more regulations will work? If they are ignoring their current tasks,
what makes you thinking that new, and tougher tasks are going to be the
saviour?

<Breath>

The government needs checks and balances because the government is the only
entity that can initiate force. A company cannot initiate force legally. A
company cannot force you to buy a product except through government mandate.
A company can only conduct trade. A government can conduct war, declare
states of emergency, raise taxes and FORCE you to pay them. No matter how
many times you say it, a company cannot produce tyranny, because you can
choose to conduct business with any other company. The only ways that a
company can establish a monopoly is
1) by being the best and constantly bettering themselves to keep
entrepreneurs out of the market.
2) by government assistance (legslation, favors, etc.)
3) Force or Fraud, which should be illegal by the laws of the government.
A government is a much scarier entity then a company. So my goal is to limit
the amount of influence any government has in my personal life.

You mention that these "tyrannical" tendencacies are evident in history.
Well lets take an example that all of us should know. The Microsoft
Anti-trust suit. Microsoft had a huge market share in this country, with its
OS and its browser. Over time, competetiors innovated, and provided services
that was not address by Microsoft needs, or made better services then
Microsoft offered. Apple, Linux, Google, all chipping away at Microsofts
markets. Now we are seeing innovation from others, and Microsoft playing
catch up. Microsoft is loosing market shares left and right. Has anyone seen
any actual difference in Microsoft's business practices? Do you think that
they have become less agressive, or has the competition matured? Does anyone
want to ague the fact that we have alot more choices now, across all relms
of what use to be Microsofts domain? The government failed to nail it's
anti-trust case to MS, does anyone know of anything else they did to hobble
MS?

Simmons
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From marc at e-skinner.net  Mon Aug 23 16:23:22 2010
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:23:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] For Sale! - P3 Dells, PATA HD's, Color Printer
Message-ID: <4C72E6CA.7060702@e-skinner.net>

(4) Dell Optiplex GX110

1 - 256mb ram, 800mhz p3, 10gb hd, 10/100 nic
1 - 128mb ram, 666mhz p3, 8 gb hd, 10/100 nic
1 - 256mb ram, 800mhz p3, 8 gb hd, 10/100 nic
1 - 512mb ram, 933mhz p3, 10gb hd, 10/100 nic

Looking for $20ish for each one - obo.


----------------------------



(6) 250gb PATA HD's - all working

Looking for $25 a piece - obo.


(2) 200gb PATA HD's - all working

Looking for $20 a piece - obo.


(3) 120gb PATA HD's - all working

Looking for $15 a piece - obo.


(2) 80gb PATA HD's - all working

Looking for $10 a piece - obo.


(2) 40gb PATA HD's - all working

Looking for $10 a piece - obo.


------------------------------

Brand new - still in box - never used!

Epson C120 color printer - $50




From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 16:41:34 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:41:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RE tuesday meeting
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxx=UYgtjUucfOj1_XHfU0yMGELGviF0i5MgzH@mail.gmail.com>

What is the subject of the Tuesday meeting ?
If it is networking I am in.
Ron.

-- 
?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you
didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away
from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
Discover.?
? Mark Twain
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Mon Aug 23 16:47:11 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:47:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RE tuesday meeting
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimxx=UYgtjUucfOj1_XHfU0yMGELGviF0i5MgzH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimxx=UYgtjUucfOj1_XHfU0yMGELGviF0i5MgzH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C72EC5F.7050508@meltel.net>

r j wrote:
> What is the subject of the Tuesday meeting ?
> If it is networking I am in.
> Ron.
>
> -- 
> ?Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things 
> that you didn?t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the 
> bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in 
> your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.?
> ? Mark Twain
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Net Neutrality?
Tom


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 17:58:58 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:58:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008231750200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I agree with Dan Taylor.  That is the problem.  You cannot get rid of 
government altogether, but if you weaken government sufficiently (as 
Grover Norquist has said -- so that he can drown it in the bathtub), then 
other very unpleasant things will happen.  Government will be controlled 
by powerful corporations and super-rich individuals for their personal 
gain.

I also note, in line with Dan's argument, that whenever I argue for higher 
taxes on the rich, my so-called "conservative" or "libertarian" friends 
will ask "why do you hate the rich?"  They want to argue about the 
goodness of the rich.  Sorry, I don't hate them and I don't think they are 
"good" either.  I think that way of thinking about the problem is a waste 
of time.  I just want them to pay higher taxes and maintain a more equal 
share of the wealth and power with the rest of us.  That's all.

If I could save $10 million per year, it would only take me 6,000 years to 
amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  If I could only save $60,000 per 
year, and I can't even do that!, then it would take me 1,000,000 to save 
up as much as Bill Gates.  Or maybe I could put together a team of 10,000 
people, each saving $60,000 per year, then it would only take my team 100 
years to amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  But the thing is, this OK 
because Bill Gates is so "good" that he deserves to have super-massive 
wealth and power and I'm, I guess, just not that good.  So it's fair.

Mike


On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Daniel Taylor wrote:

> This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
> continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.
>
> On 08/22/2010 09:17 AM, J.A. Simmons V wrote:
>> Daniel,
>> I will agree that there is a lot of religious mysticism regarding the
>> concept that is a free market, both for and against. I have met a lot of
>> irrationality on both sides, and most of it comes from a lack of actual
>> research and logical thinking. Does laissez-faire have problems, of
>> course it does, as does every system, but I hold that it is the fairest
>> system that we have at this time.
>>
> The fundamental problem with laissez-faire is actually the same as the
> problem with governmental control. A significant portion of the human
> population has a desire to maximize their personal power.
>
> Any system that does not have explicit checks on their ability to do so
> will eventually devolve into some form of tyranny when one of these
> individuals finally succeeds in surpassing the ability of any other
> individual or group to suppress them. Even systems that do have such
> checks may fail over time, but they tend to be much longer lived and
> present a more stable environment until they fail.
>
> It is really exactly as simple as that, and this tendency is well known
> and has been recognized for centuries. It is in fact one of the primary
> principles behind the division of powers in the US Constitution.
>
> Thus, while it is obvious that too much government causes problems and
> misallocation of resources, it is equally clear that too little
> government will have the same result. The path for maximal market
> freedom is therefore one in which both extreme wealth and extreme
> poverty are guarded against as related evils, as well as providing a
> framework for the consistent punishment of fraud.
>
> Not touching the money question right now. I might come back to it later.
>
> -- 
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 22:02:49 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:02:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZp5uwJpQ3psoSnx8_o4TvP_b2FTCEvwTY_21N@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

> This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
> continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.
>

I object.  Please take this discussion elsewhere.

Thanks!
J
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 23 22:55:39 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:55:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZp5uwJpQ3psoSnx8_o4TvP_b2FTCEvwTY_21N@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Ditto
  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John Trammell
  Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 10:03 PM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....


  On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

    This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
    continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.


  I object.  Please take this discussion elsewhere.

  Thanks!
  J 
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From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 23:35:02 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:35:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTikZp5uwJpQ3psoSnx8_o4TvP_b2FTCEvwTY_21N@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgPmcDD+=wsw0kD_yC2mGbuLdV6QsrKQnTHKSx@mail.gmail.com>

Just finished entertaining out of town guests so I'll be adding my $0.02
tomorrow.

Linux is not just a technology.  Linux (the kernel) and many other pieces of
software that you all use and love every day are licensed under licenses
that protect the rights and intentions of the contributors and the users.
The Open Source community, and the projects therein, are therefore social
movements as much as they are technological advances and revolutions in
development methodologies and project management.  The Open Source world is
especially relevant in the context of market models.  People who don't think
a Linux User Group is an appropriate forum for discourse regarding such
issues are, in my humble opinion, flat out missing the point.

That said, when I see posts and threads I'm not interested in I delete them
without complaint.  I kindly suggest you do the same in the spirit of
treating threads I care about with the same respect that I treat some of the
threads you care about.

Kind regards.

-Rob

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>  Ditto
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]*On Behalf Of *John Trammell
> *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2010 10:03 PM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:
>
>> This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
>> continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.
>>
>
> I object.  Please take this discussion elsewhere.
>
> Thanks!
> J
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 00:24:42 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:24:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgPmcDD+=wsw0kD_yC2mGbuLdV6QsrKQnTHKSx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Robert Nesius
  Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 11:35 PM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....


  That said, when I see posts and threads I'm not interested in I delete them without complaint.  I kindly suggest you do the same in the spirit of treating threads I care about with the same respect that I treat some of the threads you care about. 

  Kind regards.

  -Rob 

Applies properly to on-topic threads, not to OT political threads... IMHO.


  On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

    Ditto
      -----Original Message-----
      From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John Trammell
      Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 10:03 PM
      To: TCLUG Mailing List
      Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....


      On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

        This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
        continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.


      I object.  Please take this discussion elsewhere.

      Thanks!
      J 


    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



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From ryanjcole at me.com  Tue Aug 24 00:58:09 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:58:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8854412E-2396-4537-B023-6C1FEF9F0177@me.com>

On Aug 24, 2010, at 0:24, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Robert Nesius
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 11:35 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
> 
> That said, when I see posts and threads I'm not interested in I delete them without complaint.  I kindly suggest you do the same in the spirit of treating threads I care about with the same respect that I treat some of the threads you care about. 
> 
> Kind regards.
> 
> -Rob 
>  
> Applies properly to on-topic threads, not to OT political threads... IMHO.
> 

I concur. 

Take that topic off list. 


> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:55 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ditto
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John Trammell
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 10:03 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
> 
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:
> This is a totally bizarre place for this discussion, but I'm game to
> continue as long as it's civil and nobody objects.
> 
> I object.  Please take this discussion elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks!
> J 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From iipreca at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 03:31:07 2010
From: iipreca at hotmail.com (J Georgius)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 03:31:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
Message-ID: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>


I am looking at replacing a switch for a small office setting and have been looking for a couple months now for a good reliable switch and franky, i'm not excited by the offerings that I see. Cisco is not an option for me, but anything else goes. The features I want/need are Gigabit,  vlan support and low power consumption if thats possible, I currently have a 24 port, so I think a 24 port would work well. Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with a smaller(semi) managed (vlan) capable switch? 

So far I've looked at extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks and netgear. Netgear has a nice price, but I don't want to sacrifice stability and reliability, since it won't get alot of attention. 

Thanks in advance 

Jesse
 		 	   		  
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 04:01:17 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:01:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEJMDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

I like to use a couple of DPDT toggle switches, and use a large paper clamp on the handles to get them to go together.  Utterly
reliable, and no software headaches.  Not real fast, but real steady...

Chuck
  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of J Georgius
  Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:31 AM
  To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
  Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches


  I am looking at replacing a switch for a small office setting and have been looking for a couple months now for a good reliable
switch and franky, i'm not excited by the offerings that I see. Cisco is not an option for me, but anything else goes. The features
I want/need are Gigabit,  vlan support and low power consumption if thats possible, I currently have a 24 port, so I think a 24 port
would work well. Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with a smaller(semi) managed (vlan) capable switch?

  So far I've looked at extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks and netgear. Netgear has a nice price, but I don't want to
sacrifice stability and reliability, since it won't get alot of attention.

  Thanks in advance

  Jesse
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From drue at therub.org  Tue Aug 24 06:57:16 2010
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:57:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100824115716.GA96571@therub.org>

Have you looked at Dell?  The 2824 meets your requirements and is <$300.

http://dell.to/7GV7bb

Dan

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:31:07AM -0500, J Georgius wrote:
>    I am looking at replacing a switch for a small office setting and have
>    been looking for a couple months now for a good reliable switch and
>    franky, i'm not excited by the offerings that I see. Cisco is not an
>    option for me, but anything else goes. The features I want/need are
>    Gigabit,  vlan support and low power consumption if thats possible, I
>    currently have a 24 port, so I think a 24 port would work well. Does
>    anyone have any suggestions or experience with a smaller(semi) managed
>    (vlan) capable switch?
> 
>    So far I've looked at extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks and
>    netgear. Netgear has a nice price, but I don't want to sacrifice stability
>    and reliability, since it won't get alot of attention.
> 
>    Thanks in advance
> 
>    Jesse

> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 08:53:47 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:53:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
Message-ID: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>

I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those
articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?

thanks


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Aug 24 09:00:28 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:00:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008240859161.3275@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, James wrote:

> I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those
> articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?

Well, it's not like it's encrypted or anything. Or password protected.

Then again, not like you're going to be running it across the open 
internet, right? It's usually something that gets run in trusted 
environments.

-Yaron

--


From gabe at msi.umn.edu  Tue Aug 24 09:14:34 2010
From: gabe at msi.umn.edu (Gabe Turner)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:14:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100824141434.GC13092@blackice.msi.umn.edu>

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 08:53:47AM -0500, James wrote:
> I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those
> articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?

How are you defining 'secure' and 'insecure' in this context?  What are
your security requirements?

-- 
Gabe Turner                                             gabe at msi.umn.edu
HPC Systems Administrator,
University of Minnesota
Supercomputing Institute                          http://www.msi.umn.edu


From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:26:17 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:26:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>

>
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 8:53 AM, James <jucziz6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those
> articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?
>

Pretty much.  NFSv4, if it ever arrives in the form of a full
implementation, could possibly be better.  NFSv4 pretty much solves all of
the caching/scaling issues inherent in NFS (theoretically a legitmate AFS
replacement) along with world hunger, etc... you get the idea.

The issue isn't the presence or absence of encryption within the filesystem
implementation, it is how NFS builds its trust models, which necessitates a
lot of extra engineering to lock down an NFS environment.  For example, any
sane NFS environment will be configured by default not trust that a
transaction against the file system initiated by root is really root.  If
the NFS server grants mounts to any machine on the network then root on any
machine can browse your file system and start cruising for setuid binaries
to target for trojans in hopes of getting a shell on a different host.  But,
eventually you'll need to perform operations on the filesystem or files as
root, which leads to having a few machines in the environment "root
trusted".

So you have a list of "trusted hosts" - but how is identity established for
the host?  It can be host names or ip addresses - both of which can be
spoofed easily enough.  So locking down your NFS environment implies a
secure way to manage identity of both users and hosts and other network
resources.  (Kerberos?)

It's when you start thinking about large-scale NFS implementations that some
of the benefits of Active Directory manifest.  And I think in point of fact
you can use LDAP + Kerberos to harden an NFS environment.  I've seen the
conversion to using ACLs in LDAP go less than smoothly.  I'm not totally
familiar with this dimension of NFS administration so I'd suggest doing some
research.

NFS has some other limitations too due to its design, like the fact the
"last close" problem has no solution on NFSv3.  NFSv4 may be able to handle
that.  I think NFSv4 has been "right around the corner" for close to a
decade now.  It's the Duke Nuke'em Forever of file systems. ;)

-Rob
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From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 24 09:30:05 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:30:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C73D76D.3010900@argle.org>

It is no more or less secure than it was many years ago.

I'd suggest DAV or samba as reasonable alternatives for a new
configuration.

-- 
Dan


From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:41:45 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:41:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTikgPmcDD+=wsw0kD_yC2mGbuLdV6QsrKQnTHKSx@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJLDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLKh0o_jimS0pOjKkOuXDKbhVs_BnKq4xjnDQE@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]*On Behalf Of *Robert Nesius
> *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2010 11:35 PM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
>
> That said, when I see posts and threads I'm not interested in I delete them
> without complaint.  I kindly suggest you do the same in the spirit of
> treating threads I care about with the same respect that I treat some of the
> threads you care about.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> Applies properly to on-topic threads, not to OT political threads... IMHO.
>

Well - if you can refrain from making off-topic and not-very-funny jokes
about toggle switches clamped together, I guess I can take this off list.  I
mean, you hold yourself to the same standards you hold others, right?

Cheers,

-Rob
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From josh at tcbug.org  Tue Aug 24 09:35:46 2010
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:35:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008240859161.3275@localhost.localdomain>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008240859161.3275@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <201008240935.54840.josh@tcbug.org>

On Tuesday 24 August 2010 09:00:28 Yaron wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, James wrote:
> > I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those
> > articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?
> 
> Well, it's not like it's encrypted or anything. Or password protected.
> 
> Then again, not like you're going to be running it across the open
> internet, right? It's usually something that gets run in trusted
> environments.
> 
> -Yaron

NFS has a couple of issues that conspire to get it called insecure.

The first is it's a plain text protocol.  So your data is going over the wire 
in plain text.  This may or may not be an issue depending on your 
organization.

The second has to do with authorization and authentication, as well as file 
permissions.  In NFSv2 and v3 you can restrict access to shares on the server 
by netblock, but that's about it.  If someone wants a file to be private they 
can be tempted to chmod it 600, but the server trusts the UID of the client, 
so someone else wanting to read the file can simply create that UID on their 
client, mount up the share and then access the file.  But umasks conspire to 
make it difficult to use as a group access systems as well.  Say for example 
you have all of the accountants in a group called accountant.  In order to 
share a directory with them all with NFS you have to create files owned 
user:accountant perms 660...and that's fine until they go to create a file in 
another directory, either on the NFS server or locally.

NFSv4 has changed the game, but that's not very widely deployed yet, and 
usually if someone says "NFS" they are talking about v3 or v2.  If they are 
intending to talk about v4 they will say NFSv4.

http://www.iaps.com/NFSv4-new-features.html

Is decent reading and will show how a lot of what I've said simply doesn't 
apply to NFSv4, and how it may be a suitable choice for you, if NFSv3 isn't.


-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 10:05:21 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:05:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <20100824115716.GA96571@therub.org>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
	<20100824115716.GA96571@therub.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>

We have a Cisco core switch doing all the Layer 3. We have a mix of
Dell PowerConnect 3448, 3548, 5348, and 5448 switches connecting back
to the Cisco. This 3XXX and 5XXX lines of PowerConnect switches has
been solid, even the PoE versions, and the pricing is more appealing
than the pricing of extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks.
Haven't worked with the 28XX series Dan Rue mentioned, but for the
price it looks like a good bet.

Had a couple Netgear managed gig switches at a remote location at one
time. Ran fine while I was on site, then started doing flaky things
(dropping from gig to 10 megabit, dropping the connection entirely,
lots of retransmits and errors) a few months down the road. We threw
the cable qualifier on all the structured cables and patch cables and
everything passed, so we replaced the Netgear switches with Dell
PowerConnects and haven't had an issue since.


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 11:00:36 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:00:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikLKh0o_jimS0pOjKkOuXDKbhVs_BnKq4xjnDQE@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

The guy asked about ANY alternatives.  That switch option was exactly on topic for what he requested.  

Perhaps your technical horizons are too limited :-)

  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Robert Nesius
  Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:42 AM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....





  On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:


      -----Original Message-----
      From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Robert Nesius
      Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 11:35 PM
      To: TCLUG Mailing List
      Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....


      That said, when I see posts and threads I'm not interested in I delete them without complaint.  I kindly suggest you do the same in the spirit of treating threads I care about with the same respect that I treat some of the threads you care about. 

      Kind regards.

      -Rob 

    Applies properly to on-topic threads, not to OT political threads... IMHO.


  Well - if you can refrain from making off-topic and not-very-funny jokes about toggle switches clamped together, I guess I can take this off list.  I mean, you hold yourself to the same standards you hold others, right?   

  Cheers,

  -Rob 
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From tpenney at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 11:12:55 2010
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:12:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTikLKh0o_jimS0pOjKkOuXDKbhVs_BnKq4xjnDQE@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=tyDiMLtvF2iakwLMQnpmRvdpLPoTTmsj2vWA1@mail.gmail.com>

although I mostly just lurk on this list list, my vote would be to
keep political debates and personal insults off the list. It's getting
a little out of hand.

- Tom


From iipreca at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 11:41:20 2010
From: iipreca at hotmail.com (J Georgius)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:41:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>,
	<20100824115716.GA96571@therub.org>,
	<AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT142-w60742AA36E63F1CCD6EFECAA830@phx.gbl>


Well I'll have a looksy at Dell and thanks for the input, I do like the DPDT and paper clip idea, but i'm not very good at high frequency design yet. 

JG



> 
> We have a Cisco core switch doing all the Layer 3. We have a mix of
> Dell PowerConnect 3448, 3548, 5348, and 5448 switches connecting back
> to the Cisco. This 3XXX and 5XXX lines of PowerConnect switches has
> been solid, even the PoE versions, and the pricing is more appealing
> than the pricing of extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks.
> Haven't worked with the 28XX series Dan Rue mentioned, but for the
> price it looks like a good bet.
> 
> Had a couple Netgear managed gig switches at a remote location at one
> time. Ran fine while I was on site, then started doing flaky things
> (dropping from gig to 10 megabit, dropping the connection entirely,
> lots of retransmits and errors) a few months down the road. We threw
> the cable qualifier on all the structured cables and patch cables and
> everything passed, so we replaced the Netgear switches with Dell
> PowerConnects and haven't had an issue since.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
> 

 		 	   		  
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From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Tue Aug 24 11:43:18 2010
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:43:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
	<20100824115716.GA96571@therub.org>
	<AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201008241143.18761.bbaptist@iexposure.com>



On Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:05:21 am Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:
> We have a Cisco core switch doing all the Layer 3. We have a mix of
> Dell PowerConnect 3448, 3548, 5348, and 5448 switches connecting back
> to the Cisco. This 3XXX and 5XXX lines of PowerConnect switches has
> been solid, even the PoE versions, and the pricing is more appealing
> than the pricing of extreme networks, juniper, transistion networks.
> Haven't worked with the 28XX series Dan Rue mentioned, but for the
> price it looks like a good bet.
> 
> Had a couple Netgear managed gig switches at a remote location at one
> time. Ran fine while I was on site, then started doing flaky things
> (dropping from gig to 10 megabit, dropping the connection entirely,
> lots of retransmits and errors) a few months down the road. We threw
> the cable qualifier on all the structured cables and patch cables and
> everything passed, so we replaced the Netgear switches with Dell
> PowerConnects and haven't had an issue since.

Those Dells switches are not vastly different from the Netgear ones.  In fact 
the Dell switches are rebranded SMC switches, about the same level of 
confidence inspiration.



-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
bbaptist at iexposure.com
Internet Exposure, Inc.
http://www.iexposure.com
(612) 676-1946 x117

Providing Internet Services since 1995
Web Development ~ Search Engine Marketing ~ Web Analytics
Network Security ~ On Demand Tech Support ~ E-Mail Marketing


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Tue Aug 24 12:11:50 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 12:11:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=tyDiMLtvF2iakwLMQnpmRvdpLPoTTmsj2vWA1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikLKh0o_jimS0pOjKkOuXDKbhVs_BnKq4xjnDQE@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEJNDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTi=tyDiMLtvF2iakwLMQnpmRvdpLPoTTmsj2vWA1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinetinBPYhP7966v26zChQC68S9a=C9FqnXeEVr@mail.gmail.com>

I personally do not see the problem with any discussion on a particular
forum, but I am relatively new to this group, so I will offer to take this
discussion offline with anyone who is still interested. (But of course, I
see it as the market supporting it by the fact that people are responding
and engaging in the discussion, that is on par with what I have been
defending. )

With that said, since I am relatively new in town and to this list, what are
the rules / the prescribed topics? What topics are accepted? Since this is a
LUG mailing list, I would assume that Linux is the obvious allowed
topic. Are all these networking questions that have been floating around
also looked down upon since they are not directly Linux related (the last
one I read was talking about Cisco switches)? Is it a faux pas to respond? I
have seen a few computers being offered for sale, and since this list is not
a commercial venture, is that equally looked down upon? The last thing I
really want to do is disenfranchise anyone by disseminating information to a
distribution list of like minded individuals, that has a specific topic that
is strictly enforced. Does there exist an actual hierarchy or judicial
system for this board to keep it on track? Since this is a "little" passive
agressive, I am still highly curious as to responsed to my questions posted.
If this board is to be strictly on topic, then I will respond in kind.
I apologise for my assumption that this was a community, not just a help
board. Please forgive my intrusion.

Regards,
Simmons
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From josh at tcbug.org  Tue Aug 24 12:31:24 2010
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 12:31:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <SNT142-w60742AA36E63F1CCD6EFECAA830@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT142-w60742AA36E63F1CCD6EFECAA830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201008241231.33209.josh@tcbug.org>

On Tuesday 24 August 2010 11:41:20 J Georgius wrote:
> Well I'll have a looksy at Dell and thanks for the input, I do like the
> DPDT and paper clip idea, but i'm not very good at high frequency design
> yet.
> 
> JG

There's a pretty big jump in gigE switches, with a very confusing middle 
ground.

Essentially you have gigE switches designed for home use, where you have 
several computers all linking at gigE, no VLANs, no STP, and fairly rare 
bursts of high traffic between two hosts.

Then you have gigE switches designed for full wirespeed N-way gigE and the 
capability to process VLAN tags and STP on every port.  If that comes to you 
in a blue box with cisco painted on the side you can expect them to be several 
thousand dollars.  If you go with an alternative supplier, you will still 
spend 4 figures, but it will be closer to a grand.  Our core switches at work 
are Foundry FESX448+2XG's, after the 10gig fiber modules to link them I think 
they were $1900 each.

The confusing middle ground is when some features are added to a $100 home 
gigE switch, the price gets into the $300 range, and you have VLAN capability, 
STP, a web gui management interface, maybe a serial port and CLI.  Netgear, 
Dell, SMC, dlink and many others make these switches.  Some people have good 
luck with them, some don't.  A lot of it breaks down to usage.  They don't 
have enough processor to process 12 ports doing wirespeed gigE with STP and 
VLAN tagging, if you try to make them do that, they'll tip over.  They can 
also tip over because it's a $300 Dlink and that's just what you get.

Moral of the story, you get what you paid for.  I've had remarkably good luck 
on occasion, but recognize that it's just that, luck.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Aug 24 13:51:49 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:51:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <201008241231.33209.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl><AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com><SNT142-w60742AA36E63F1CCD6EFECAA830@phx.gbl>
	<201008241231.33209.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <96CFF26680E446748533EF9509F9F939@usicorp.usinternet.com>

I like Candela Network, when they have something it's commonly a good price.

cisco<$1000 for 24 gig ports of a modern series
http://www.candelanetwork.com/used/Cisco/WS-C2970G-24T-E_Switch.asp?part=WS-
C2970G-24T-E

We generally steer clear of Foundry (now brocade) as we've had too many bad
experiences with a variety of their lines.

I have seen a number of customers use Dell switches and have not really
heard anything negative about them.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Josh Paetzel
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 12:31 PM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches

On Tuesday 24 August 2010 11:41:20 J Georgius wrote:
> Well I'll have a looksy at Dell and thanks for the input, I do like the
> DPDT and paper clip idea, but i'm not very good at high frequency design
> yet.
> 
> JG

There's a pretty big jump in gigE switches, with a very confusing middle 
ground.

Essentially you have gigE switches designed for home use, where you have 
several computers all linking at gigE, no VLANs, no STP, and fairly rare 
bursts of high traffic between two hosts.

Then you have gigE switches designed for full wirespeed N-way gigE and the 
capability to process VLAN tags and STP on every port.  If that comes to you

in a blue box with cisco painted on the side you can expect them to be
several 
thousand dollars.  If you go with an alternative supplier, you will still 
spend 4 figures, but it will be closer to a grand.  Our core switches at
work 
are Foundry FESX448+2XG's, after the 10gig fiber modules to link them I
think 
they were $1900 each.

The confusing middle ground is when some features are added to a $100 home 
gigE switch, the price gets into the $300 range, and you have VLAN
capability, 
STP, a web gui management interface, maybe a serial port and CLI.  Netgear, 
Dell, SMC, dlink and many others make these switches.  Some people have good

luck with them, some don't.  A lot of it breaks down to usage.  They don't 
have enough processor to process 12 ports doing wirespeed gigE with STP and 
VLAN tagging, if you try to make them do that, they'll tip over.  They can 
also tip over because it's a $300 Dlink and that's just what you get.

Moral of the story, you get what you paid for.  I've had remarkably good
luck 
on occasion, but recognize that it's just that, luck.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel



From kc0iog at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 15:11:26 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:11:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VLAN Switches
In-Reply-To: <96CFF26680E446748533EF9509F9F939@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <SNT142-w23D2139816811D98E4F055AA830@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikJ5p_Cb1EAicG595mPdEa6LEEtcKEPzY0N5O-O@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT142-w60742AA36E63F1CCD6EFECAA830@phx.gbl>
	<201008241231.33209.josh@tcbug.org>
	<96CFF26680E446748533EF9509F9F939@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfnTVWDva-rojtQ+o7vA_AHpwEcchpAuDg8GWW@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> I have seen a number of customers use Dell switches and have not really
> heard anything negative about them.

The Dell rebranded-SMC switches are crap.  In a power event, they
usually don't come up gracefully and require a bit of massaging to get
up and running again.  I would never pay money for one, but maybe I'd
take one for free.

I prefer the old Netgear stuff (rebranded Bay networks).  I don't
recall the model number, but I picked up a 24 port GigE Netgear for
under $400 a couple years back.  48Gb backplane, fully managed, VLAN
support, all that jazz.  Beware 24 port switches that are
oversubscribed!  Even the $3000 Ciscos are oversubscribed.  I never
understood how a $400 can outperform enterprise gear but it really
can.

Brian


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 15:28:53 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:28:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 8:53 AM, James <jucziz6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have read articles that states that NFS is insecure but those 
>> articles are many years old. Is it still insecure?
>
> Pretty much.  NFSv4, if it ever arrives in the form of a full 
> implementation, could possibly be better.  NFSv4 pretty much solves all 
> of the caching/scaling issues inherent in NFS (theoretically a legitmate 
> AFS replacement) along with world hunger, etc... you get the idea.


Here's my situation (presumably relevant to this thread):  I have a laptop 
and a couple of servers and root permissions on all of them, so I can set 
something up if someone has a good plan.  I run Ubuntu on all three of 
these machines.  I'd like to set it up so that the drives on both servers 
are mounted by both servers and by my laptop.  If I take my laptop to the 
U, to my home WiFi network, or the coffee shop, or anywhere else, I'd like 
to automatically mount the drives on those servers.

I've been using sshfs.  I assume it's as secure as ssh, so pretty safe, 
but is there another way that's better than sshfs?  Is something else 
faster than sshfs but without sacrificing security?

Mike


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 16:21:06 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:21:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimcageAG9JqNBNjuANR9oyvxiSN8+4g=4uQEro9@mail.gmail.com>

Ubuntu's nfs-kernel-server package includes NFSv4 support and Kerberos
support.  So, if you can figure out how to *configure* it you're good.
 (The default is NFSv3.)

 - Tony


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Aug 24 16:34:55 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:34:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 03:28:53PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> I've been using sshfs.  I assume it's as secure as ssh, so pretty safe, 
> but is there another way that's better than sshfs?  Is something else 
> faster than sshfs but without sacrificing security?

NFSv4 over VPN.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Aug 24 16:51:51 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:51:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
Message-ID: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>

I attended the meeting this morning on broadband summit with 
Genachowski.  I was glad I attended.  I walked away with a sinking 
feeling about this guy.  Rolling out broadband will cost hundreds of 
billions of dollars, he said.  I think he's locked onto fiber optic 
cable, and we'll all have to pay more.  The sinking moment came when he 
proclaimed that more people need to sign up for the pathetic services 
now offered, and then corporate thugs will decide the demand is there to 
build out.  More of the same corporate talk.  This guy has spent way too 
much time in closed door meetings without public input.

Most of the audience submitted questions, and Klobuchar presented a 
token number to the panel.  Sure wish we had less double talk and more 
activism in the FCC.  Oh, and he also brought up a study of 40 
countries.  We ranked 6th for something, and 40th for broadband (true 
broadband) speed.  Now, I don't know about you, but that would put us 
behind a whole lot of Third World countries, wouldn't it?  So, how do 
they do that, and have citizens paying a fraction of what we're paying.  
Genachowski actually believes we all will have to pay more, before true 
broadband will be competitively offered.  I'm sick.  Did anyone else 
come away with a different impression?
Tom


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Tue Aug 24 17:30:09 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:30:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008231750200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008231750200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=TbXn8Oz6cYsN7EJ2pS0PuHvVt49fv5zjTosUX@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 17:58, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> I agree with Dan Taylor.  That is the problem.  You cannot get rid of
> government altogether, but if you weaken government sufficiently (as
> Grover Norquist has said -- so that he can drown it in the bathtub), then
> other very unpleasant things will happen.  Government will be controlled
> by powerful corporations and super-rich individuals for their personal
> gain.
>
>
Now I am not saying anything about weakening the government in the sense of
preventing it from defending its citizens, and prosecuting the guilty. I am
saying that the government has no business in personal affairs, i.e. trade
between individual citizens. I admit to and recognize the fact that
companies are buying favors from politicians, and that is wrong. It is a
dirty politician who would trade their morals and values to a company that
throws money at said politician. Such a politician should be expelled from
office by their constituents for breaking the social contract that the
people voted on.


> I also note, in line with Dan's argument, that whenever I argue for higher
> taxes on the rich, my so-called "conservative" or "libertarian" friends
> will ask "why do you hate the rich?"  They want to argue about the
> goodness of the rich.  Sorry, I don't hate them and I don't think they are
> "good" either.  I think that way of thinking about the problem is a waste
> of time.  I just want them to pay higher taxes and maintain a more equal
> share of the wealth and power with the rest of us.  That's all.
>
> You catagorize an entire class of citizen due to their income level. What
values do you base this decision to label them as not "good"? Gates is
currently, voluenteeraly giving away huge chunks of cash to charities. Is he
still "not good"? Does a person need to be a pennyless bum before you will
label them "good"?
You want to steal from the rich to provide for you, but what about those
poorer then you? Do you agree that they should steal from you to provide for
themselves? Because let us not kid ourselves, this act is stealing: they are
taking something that they did not work for, that they do not deserve, that
is not theirs, by force. You want a more equal share of the wealth, but are
you giving the equal share of the work? What about those on welfare?
Businessmen used their mind to earn that money. They paid workers to use
their brawn to build a product that the upper management turned around and
sold. Do you believe that you should be given free electricity because you
cannot build a nuclear reactor, but someone else did?


> If I could save $10 million per year, it would only take me 6,000 years to
> amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  If I could only save $60,000 per
> year, and I can't even do that!, then it would take me 1,000,000 to save
> up as much as Bill Gates.  Or maybe I could put together a team of 10,000
> people, each saving $60,000 per year, then it would only take my team 100
> years to amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  But the thing is, this OK
> because Bill Gates is so "good" that he deserves to have super-massive
> wealth and power and I'm, I guess, just not that good.  So it's fair.
>
>
Bill Gates in not so "good" that he deserves to have all that money. Gates
used his mind to start a company, his resources to build that company, and
then used his mind to drive that company to success. Do you think that you
can do what Bill did? Why don't you? Do you think you could make a company
as big as EDS (before HP bought it). Ross Perot started EDS with an idea and
$1000. Microsoft has similar humble beginnings. Do you have a $1000? How
about $5000? Do you think you could save up for a year and get the needed
current dollar equivalent? If you also have an idea,then you to can be rich,
and do what ever you want with your money at that point. (Which Bill is
currently giving away tons of cash for charity work voluntarily. Is he still
bad?)
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 17:41:16 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:41:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
References: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241738140.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Tom Poe wrote:

> We ranked 6th for something, and 40th for broadband (true broadband) 
> speed.  Now, I don't know about you, but that would put us behind a 
> whole lot of Third World countries, wouldn't it?  So, how do they do 
> that, and have citizens paying a fraction of what we're paying. 
> Genachowski actually believes we all will have to pay more, before true 
> broadband will be competitively offered.  I'm sick.  Did anyone else 
> come away with a different impression? Tom


I was in S. Korea two months ago.  They had 18 Mbps broadband in the 
hotel.  I guess the country is wired really well and there's fast/free 
wifi all over the place.  But the thing is, it's a small country with 60% 
of the nation's population in the Seoul metro area.  Also, a lot of 
Koreans want to leave Korea and come here, so we must be doing something 
right.

I think it's a lot easier to get a high average broadband speed when the 
country is small.

Mike


From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Tue Aug 24 17:46:49 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:46:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd:  OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=TbXn8Oz6cYsN7EJ2pS0PuHvVt49fv5zjTosUX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008231750200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=TbXn8Oz6cYsN7EJ2pS0PuHvVt49fv5zjTosUX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTini5Fnn_Kx-us8poha_v9Ed7cWNY-gzgXfus6qY@mail.gmail.com>

I appologize for the slipup... We have taken this offline, but I slipped and
didn't update the TO: field to this older response. But here is a LINUX just
to keep everyone happy.

Regards,
Simmons

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: J.A. Simmons V <simmonsj at redkeep.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 17:30
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>




 On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 17:58, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> I agree with Dan Taylor.  That is the problem.  You cannot get rid of
> government altogether, but if you weaken government sufficiently (as
> Grover Norquist has said -- so that he can drown it in the bathtub), then
> other very unpleasant things will happen.  Government will be controlled
> by powerful corporations and super-rich individuals for their personal
> gain.
>
>
Now I am not saying anything about weakening the government in the sense of
preventing it from defending its citizens, and prosecuting the guilty. I am
saying that the government has no business in personal affairs, i.e. trade
between individual citizens. I admit to and recognize the fact that
companies are buying favors from politicians, and that is wrong. It is a
dirty politician who would trade their morals and values to a company that
throws money at said politician. Such a politician should be expelled from
office by their constituents for breaking the social contract that the
people voted on.


> I also note, in line with Dan's argument, that whenever I argue for higher
> taxes on the rich, my so-called "conservative" or "libertarian" friends
> will ask "why do you hate the rich?"  They want to argue about the
> goodness of the rich.  Sorry, I don't hate them and I don't think they are
> "good" either.  I think that way of thinking about the problem is a waste
> of time.  I just want them to pay higher taxes and maintain a more equal
> share of the wealth and power with the rest of us.  That's all.
>
> You catagorize an entire class of citizen due to their income level. What
values do you base this decision to label them as not "good"? Gates is
currently, voluenteeraly giving away huge chunks of cash to charities. Is he
still "not good"? Does a person need to be a pennyless bum before you will
label them "good"?
You want to steal from the rich to provide for you, but what about those
poorer then you? Do you agree that they should steal from you to provide for
themselves? Because let us not kid ourselves, this act is stealing: they are
taking something that they did not work for, that they do not deserve, that
is not theirs, by force. You want a more equal share of the wealth, but are
you giving the equal share of the work? What about those on welfare?
Businessmen used their mind to earn that money. They paid workers to use
their brawn to build a product that the upper management turned around and
sold. Do you believe that you should be given free electricity because you
cannot build a nuclear reactor, but someone else did?


> If I could save $10 million per year, it would only take me 6,000 years to
> amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  If I could only save $60,000 per
> year, and I can't even do that!, then it would take me 1,000,000 to save
> up as much as Bill Gates.  Or maybe I could put together a team of 10,000
> people, each saving $60,000 per year, then it would only take my team 100
> years to amass as much wealth as Bill Gates.  But the thing is, this OK
> because Bill Gates is so "good" that he deserves to have super-massive
> wealth and power and I'm, I guess, just not that good.  So it's fair.
>
>
Bill Gates in not so "good" that he deserves to have all that money. Gates
used his mind to start a company, his resources to build that company, and
then used his mind to drive that company to success. Do you think that you
can do what Bill did? Why don't you? Do you think you could make a company
as big as EDS (before HP bought it). Ross Perot started EDS with an idea and
$1000. Microsoft has similar humble beginnings. Do you have a $1000? How
about $5000? Do you think you could save up for a year and get the needed
current dollar equivalent? If you also have an idea,then you to can be rich,
and do what ever you want with your money at that point. (Which Bill is
currently giving away tons of cash for charity work voluntarily. Is he still
bad?)
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Tue Aug 24 18:03:38 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:03:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
References: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=9xyse77bvJgJmaWEJs36235qjkh4N7nwMQkVJ@mail.gmail.com>

<Speculation>
If I rolled out fiber to a small village in Zimbabwe, I could probably buy
the land to run the cable on cheaper then in the US, hire out workers to run
the cable cheaper then US, and then that little village that now has a fiber
running to it, can have blazing fast speed because there is all of 10 to 20
people using it. (exaggeration noted).
</Speculation>

Lets now run cable to BF, Texas. I have to buy land either from the state,
or from other people, abide by all kinds of regulations like OSHA and state
and federal safety codes, file mounds paperwork with the State comptroller.
Pay minimum wage for all my workers, healthcare, social security (we will
keep this legal so I will not be using illegal immigrants). Pay for all
kinds building licenses, right of ways, etc. Texas is a Right to Work state,
so I do not have to deal with unions and that cluster*#&$, but lets not
forget that fact for other states. Finally after dropping all that cash to
get to a small city, we are dealing with at least 100 people. Running the
same fiber one block in New York City, and it will service maybe one
apartment building, and you can see the scaling problem.

Lets move to WiMaxx now. You will need building licenses for the tower, and
maybe FCC licenses for the transceiver. Plus everything mentioned above for
the connection to the WiMaxx transceiver to the intertubes.
If anyone can find a place to cut down on costs, we might have a new
business model here.
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 18:11:41 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:11:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: I'm thinking of....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=TbXn8Oz6cYsN7EJ2pS0PuHvVt49fv5zjTosUX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinScQGriZjTqnUs1V8YpMXSLJMpoYccOM+J2JZN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik4u9ZUcye_=Oh2D_3Rvki8yr+rZnNu+5AJocGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C6EB1E2.4000503@argle.org>
	<AANLkTikEPxHOMpqhTY-NnuGhtDh0Hq_VjZWqKHxwSomg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C729532.8070707@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008231750200.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTi=TbXn8Oz6cYsN7EJ2pS0PuHvVt49fv5zjTosUX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241804370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> Bill Gates in not so "good" that he deserves to have all that money. 
> Gates used his mind to start a company, his resources to build that 
> company, and then used his mind to drive that company to success. Do you 
> think that you can do what Bill did? Why don't you? Do you think you 
> could make a company as big as EDS (before HP bought it). Ross Perot 
> started EDS with an idea and $1000. Microsoft has similar humble 
> beginnings. Do you have a $1000? How about $5000? Do you think you could 
> save up for a year and get the needed current dollar equivalent? If you 
> also have an idea,then you to can be rich, and do what ever you want 
> with your money at that point. (Which Bill is currently giving away tons 
> of cash for charity work voluntarily. Is he still bad?)

OK, I changed my mind.  Bill Gates is really good and he should have $60 
billion, and he's giving it all away to save the starving children.  How 
could I ever have doubted his pure goodness?

I came up with another way to get enough people together so that they can 
compete with Bill Gates' wealth:  We have about 5.3 million people in 
Minnesota.  Let's say there are 3.5 people in the average Minnesota 
family.  Then we can have every family in the state save $4,000 per year, 
every year for 10 years.  Then we put all of our money together and we'll 
have about $60 billion.  It just shows you that if 5.3 million people work 
really hard for a decade, they can amass as much wealth as one super-rich, 
super-good (how could I have questioned him?!) man whose great mind has 
made him deserving of his power.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 18:16:47 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:16:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=9xyse77bvJgJmaWEJs36235qjkh4N7nwMQkVJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTi=9xyse77bvJgJmaWEJs36235qjkh4N7nwMQkVJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241812270.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, J.A. Simmons V wrote:

> <Speculation>
> If I rolled out fiber to a small village in Zimbabwe, I could probably 
> buy the land to run the cable on cheaper then in the US, hire out 
> workers to run the cable cheaper then US, and then that little village 
> that now has a fiber running to it, can have blazing fast speed because 
> there is all of 10 to 20 people using it. (exaggeration noted).
> </Speculation>


> Lets now run cable to BF, Texas. I have to buy land either from the 
> state, or from other people, abide by all kinds of regulations like OSHA 
> and state and federal safety codes, file mounds paperwork with the State 
> comptroller.

Government in the way, again.


> Pay minimum wage for all my workers, healthcare, social security (we 
> will keep this legal so I will not be using illegal immigrants).

Exactly.  Slave labor, or child labor, would have been a lot cheaper, but 
the damned nanny government is "protecting the children."


I think I'll move to Zimbabwe where everything is easier.

Mike


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 18:36:00 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:36:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
Message-ID: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>

And at what point do exorbitant taxes cause us to become a slave to the
government?!

>Exactly.  Slave labor, or child labor, would have been a lot cheaper,
>but 
>the damned nanny government is "protecting the children."


>I think I'll move to Zimbabwe where everything is easier.

>Mike



From ryanjcole at me.com  Tue Aug 24 18:53:02 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:53:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
Message-ID: <A7F09018-6F64-4EBB-9C1F-D122EF048E81@me.com>

Jesus. No more. Please.

OFFLIST

On Aug 24, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Robert wrote:

> And at what point do exorbitant taxes cause us to become a slave to the
> government?!
> 
>> Exactly.  Slave labor, or child labor, would have been a lot cheaper,
>> but 
>> the damned nanny government is "protecting the children."
> 
> 
>> I think I'll move to Zimbabwe where everything is easier.
> 
>> Mike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Tue Aug 24 18:58:09 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:58:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <A7F09018-6F64-4EBB-9C1F-D122EF048E81@me.com>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
	<A7F09018-6F64-4EBB-9C1F-D122EF048E81@me.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Cq8L7Tyo-ngEG2nzHc=OFR7xYFUzgTRsaQt6S@mail.gmail.com>

Ha ha ha.

This message was sent from my android phone.

On Aug 24, 2010 6:57 PM, "Ryan Coleman" <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> Jesus. No more. Please.
>
> OFFLIST
>
> On Aug 24, 2010, at 6:36 PM, Robert wrote:
>
>> And at what point do exorbitant taxes cause us to become a slave to the
>> government?!
>>
>>> Exactly. Slave labor, or child labor, would have been a lot cheaper,
>>> but
>>> the damned nanny government is "protecting the children."
>>
>>
>>> I think I'll move to Zimbabwe where everything is easier.
>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Aug 24 19:44:10 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:44:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Internet2, the UM, and Broadband Taskforce
Message-ID: <4C74675A.5030203@meltel.net>

Did anyone follow the broadband taskforce activities?  Did they ever 
consider leveraging the university's participation in Internet2, and 
chartering a state broadband policy that would enable communities to 
access the existing fiber in Minnesota?
Tom


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Aug 24 21:01:42 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:01:42 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
Message-ID: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the gnome-terminal sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full kde plasma desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the basic simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough to not have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.

Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free govenment vs centralized markets?
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


From j at packetgod.com  Tue Aug 24 21:16:55 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:16:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik6tGaHTEis8tv8=U_F52bCM=82sG=Lv970CkpP@mail.gmail.com>

Linux is like the free market, do whatever you want that works for you.  I'm
pretty sure thats what we learned from all those other posts.  With 4 gigs
of RAM you don't have to worry about one being more hogging than the other
so go with whatever floats your boat.  Mix and match gnome and KDE apps to
your hearts delight or branch out and try other terminal/console apps  Go
forth and express your individuality without worry of government regulation.




On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the gnome-terminal
> sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full kde plasma
> desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the basic
> simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough to not
> have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.
>
> Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free
> govenment vs centralized markets?
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 21:15:27 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:15:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>

Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
of Awesome.

And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.

;)

-Erik


On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the gnome-terminal sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full kde plasma desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the basic simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough to not have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.
>
> Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free govenment vs centralized markets?
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 21:57:13 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:57:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <A7F09018-6F64-4EBB-9C1F-D122EF048E81@me.com>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
	<A7F09018-6F64-4EBB-9C1F-D122EF048E81@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242156530.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Jesus. No more. Please.
>
> OFFLIST

That was not sent off-list.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:00:47 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:00:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242158190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan 
> of Awesome.

I use ICE in VNC.


> And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better than 
> Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.

Emacs is better.  Actually, and this is true, emacs was written at MIT 
where they had more computing power and better networking.  vi was written 
for slow networks and that was the reason for the awkward way that it 
works.  I read that in an article by Bill Joy, author of vi.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:02:25 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik6tGaHTEis8tv8=U_F52bCM=82sG=Lv970CkpP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTik6tGaHTEis8tv8=U_F52bCM=82sG=Lv970CkpP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242201210.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, J Cruit wrote:

> Mix and match gnome and KDE apps to your hearts delight or branch out 
> and try other terminal/console apps Go forth and express your 
> individuality without worry of government regulation.


I'm pretty sure that with Ubuntu and synaptic that I've been running a 
bunch of KDE apps under Gnome without even thinking about it.  It just 
happened.  I guess that means they both have something to offer, at least 
to me.

Mike


From jeremy at jskier.com  Tue Aug 24 22:08:08 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:08:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik2q0jvrd74s_xykZb_mux6F0zcDEGZ8Uot=S1w@mail.gmail.com>

LXDE is pretty neat, and there is a lightweight terminal. I use a
minimal Gnome for desktop, VIM and command line (Gnome Terminal) for
any system administration or CLI stuff, and LXDE on the laptop. Arch
Linux (64 bit) is my preferred distro, I respect Ubuntu for attracting
a wide user base, but I personally like to know what is going on with
my operating system.

I could get economically political as the OP suggested, but that other
thread is just getting too long and annoying :)

Jeremy MountainJohnson
jeremy at jskier.com



On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
>
> I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the gnome-terminal sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full kde plasma desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the basic simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough to not have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.
>
> Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free govenment vs centralized markets?
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:09:38 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:09:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242203190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Robert wrote:

> And at what point do exorbitant taxes cause us to become a slave to the 
> government?!

Never in a democracy, I guess.  But the highest taxes in the world are in 
Denmark and they also have the happiest people in the world.  So I guess 
high taxes are good.  One reason is that everyone does fairly well, so 
people don't feel pressured and they choose to do for a living what they 
like to do -- they don't struggle for bigger earnings by taking a job they 
hate.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1

Costa Rica is another happy country.  Apparently this has something to do 
with their getting rid of their military-industrial complex and spending 
their money on education:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/opinion/07kristof.html

In the USA we have low taxes and a big military budget.  Maybe the 
resulting misery is the real underlying cause of Tea Party maniacs' 
incessant, angry complaining.  If we'd just slash the military budget and 
raise their income taxes to about 55%, they'd be happy.  It's worth a try.

Mike


From jeremy at jskier.com  Tue Aug 24 22:29:17 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:29:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242203190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242203190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikxCeURznmXr8JGA37h+gyb-GpkXy+o-VgVpHKx@mail.gmail.com>

This theory of yours and reality example may equate to more happiness,
but economic prosperity would suffer. You're talking about taking away
the carrot on the stick- everyone would be happier but no one is
chasing a carrot or having much motivation to do more. Meh, 5 hours of
work = more family time no hurry to work longer hours and advance
technology or cure diseases any time soon (not saying this would go
away). Economically things would slow; which is fine, I'd rather be
happier myself, but this isn't ideal from an economical productivity
stand point.

Jeremy MountainJohnson
jeremy at jskier.com




On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:09 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Robert wrote:
>
>> And at what point do exorbitant taxes cause us to become a slave to the
>> government?!
>
> Never in a democracy, I guess. ?But the highest taxes in the world are in
> Denmark and they also have the happiest people in the world. ?So I guess
> high taxes are good. ?One reason is that everyone does fairly well, so
> people don't feel pressured and they choose to do for a living what they
> like to do -- they don't struggle for bigger earnings by taking a job they
> hate.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1
>
> Costa Rica is another happy country. ?Apparently this has something to do
> with their getting rid of their military-industrial complex and spending
> their money on education:
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/opinion/07kristof.html
>
> In the USA we have low taxes and a big military budget. ?Maybe the
> resulting misery is the real underlying cause of Tea Party maniacs'
> incessant, angry complaining. ?If we'd just slash the military budget and
> raise their income taxes to about 55%, they'd be happy. ?It's worth a try.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:32:00 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:32:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimJMjpK_z5d3rRzBEGGfA+5nTV4_=ypcpbLeXKb@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
> of Awesome.
>

> And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
> than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.
>

When I want to move/resize/open new windows, I just write quick scratch
programs in C against xlib directly.  You can't get more lightweight than no
window manager.   And I write those programs in VIM, because it's better
than emacs. ;)

-Rob


>
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com>
> wrote:
> > I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the
> gnome-terminal sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full
> kde plasma desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the
> basic simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough
> to not have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.
> >
> > Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free
> govenment vs centralized markets?
> > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 25 00:34:42 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:34:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242158190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEKDDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:01 PM
>
> Emacs is better.  Actually, and this is true, emacs was written at MIT
> where they had more computing power and better networking.  vi
> was written
> for slow networks and that was the reason for the awkward way that it
> works.  I read that in an article by Bill Joy, author of vi.

IIRC, vi was used when "networks" were typically accessed in-house or
remotely by 10 character-per-second mechanical teletypes.  Emacs was
developed much later, and after megabit/sec in-house nets and CRT dumb
terminals were common.

Chuck



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 01:04:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 01:04:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEKDDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEKDDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250056200.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Chuck Cole wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:01 PM
>>
>> Emacs is better.  Actually, and this is true, emacs was written at MIT 
>> where they had more computing power and better networking.  vi was 
>> written for slow networks and that was the reason for the awkward way 
>> that it works.  I read that in an article by Bill Joy, author of vi.
>
> IIRC, vi was used when "networks" were typically accessed in-house or 
> remotely by 10 character-per-second mechanical teletypes.  Emacs was 
> developed much later, and after megabit/sec in-house nets and CRT dumb 
> terminals were common.


300 baud, actually.  You can read the relevant part of the 1999 interview 
here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/11/bill_joys_greatest_gift/


Here's an interview with Joy from 1984:

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~kirkenda/joy84.html

The bit about vi being free and "EMACS" costing hundreds of dollars is 
interesting.  I remember that you could order EMACS on tapes.


You get the impression that Joy liked emacs better than he liked vi and he 
thought vi was pass? even in 1999: "People don't know that vi was written 
for a world that doesn't exist anymore."

I know that you can make vim do good things, and the syntax highlighting 
looks nice, and I get that vi is on all UNIX/Linux systems and therefore 
useful in a clinch, but I don't see why people argue that vi/vim/gvim is 
better than emacs.  I think those people are just really good with vim and 
not so good with emacs, so vim seems better to them.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 01:11:50 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 01:11:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikxCeURznmXr8JGA37h+gyb-GpkXy+o-VgVpHKx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242203190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikxCeURznmXr8JGA37h+gyb-GpkXy+o-VgVpHKx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250105120.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:

> This theory of yours and reality example may equate to more happiness, 
> but economic prosperity would suffer.

How do you know that?  Don't people want to do good work?


> You're talking about taking away the carrot on the stick- everyone would 
> be happier but no one is chasing a carrot or having much motivation to 
> do more. Meh, 5 hours of work = more family time no hurry to work longer 
> hours and advance technology or cure diseases any time soon (not saying 
> this would go away). Economically things would slow; which is fine, I'd 
> rather be happier myself, but this isn't ideal from an economical 
> productivity stand point.

It's not better for your boss, I guess.  Not better for corporations who 
want to drive people to do more for the corporation for less pay.  I don't 
know, but I think advancing technologies and finding cures for diseases 
are things that people want to do anyway.  I work with Danish researchers 
and they are really into what they are doing and they work hard at it. 
The man with both MD and PhD who works 60 hours a week isn't going to 
become very rich, but he isn't doing this so that he can live in the big 
house on the hill and look down his nose at his neighbors.  He just loves 
learning and science and he wants to contribute.  I'm sure he also likes 
the prestige accorded to his research successes.

The Danes are fairly homogeneous ethnically.  They can't be played the way 
we are with arguments about the immigrants and the black welfare queens 
stealing all of our hard earned money.  They have some problems with 
immigrants, as you've heard (the cartoon of Muhammed case) but that is a 
small thing, at least so far.

Mike


From jeremy at jskier.com  Wed Aug 25 06:52:42 2010
From: jeremy at jskier.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 06:52:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250105120.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <1282692960.13504.7.camel@robert-desktop>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008242203190.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<AANLkTikxCeURznmXr8JGA37h+gyb-GpkXy+o-VgVpHKx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250105120.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C75040A.8040800@jskier.com>

  Don't get me wrong, people want to do good work- hence that is way I 
said not all motivation would cease to exist. It is human nature to want 
to work, I agree with that entirely. I work very hard for excessively 
low pay and work my tail off at my job here in America because I like it 
and it is rewarding and for the greater good of society (really don't do 
it primarily for the pay, otherwise I'd be very unsatisfied).

There will always be exceptions to the rules of course- people who work 
way more or way less hours. China does very well economically, but most 
people outside of China don't want to work 12 hour days making low pay. 
There are still small tribes in Africa that have no clue what a car, 
computer, or bike is- yet they are still doing well with their hunting 
and gathering economy. Throw in the advances from America, China, and 
other countries with citizens who chase the all mighty carrot and you 
will have the intelligent MD who used innovation from outside the tribe 
succeed instead of the medicine man crushing leaves and providing only 
sometimes helpful treatment. Point is people work, but much more is 
accomplished when you stick a carrot in front of someone.

If you want happiness and a sense of worth by working in a job you 
actually want and paying high taxes for the greater good, there is a 
country for you. If you want to work you tail off in hopes of making 
lots of money and helping the nation strive economically while being 
somewhat content or even sad, there is a country for you. It is all 
about how you define what you want and what you think other ought to 
want- no system is perfect unless you solely look at "happines" or 
"innovative economy" by themselves.

On 08/25/2010 01:11 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Jeremy MountainJohnson wrote:
>
>> This theory of yours and reality example may equate to more happiness,
>> but economic prosperity would suffer.
> How do you know that?  Don't people want to do good work?
>
>
>> You're talking about taking away the carrot on the stick- everyone would
>> be happier but no one is chasing a carrot or having much motivation to
>> do more. Meh, 5 hours of work = more family time no hurry to work longer
>> hours and advance technology or cure diseases any time soon (not saying
>> this would go away). Economically things would slow; which is fine, I'd
>> rather be happier myself, but this isn't ideal from an economical
>> productivity stand point.
> It's not better for your boss, I guess.  Not better for corporations who
> want to drive people to do more for the corporation for less pay.  I don't
> know, but I think advancing technologies and finding cures for diseases
> are things that people want to do anyway.  I work with Danish researchers
> and they are really into what they are doing and they work hard at it.
> The man with both MD and PhD who works 60 hours a week isn't going to
> become very rich, but he isn't doing this so that he can live in the big
> house on the hill and look down his nose at his neighbors.  He just loves
> learning and science and he wants to contribute.  I'm sure he also likes
> the prestige accorded to his research successes.
>
> The Danes are fairly homogeneous ethnically.  They can't be played the way
> we are with arguments about the immigrants and the black welfare queens
> stealing all of our hard earned money.  They have some problems with
> immigrants, as you've heard (the cartoon of Muhammed case) but that is a
> small thing, at least so far.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 09:15:04 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:15:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250056200.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIEKDDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008250056200.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimPxaqwFyyx+Q8P-+v1+p9WWihxhvguzVRi2y8f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> I know that you can make vim do good things, and the syntax highlighting
> looks nice, and I get that vi is on all UNIX/Linux systems and therefore
> useful in a clinch, but I don't see why people argue that vi/vim/gvim is
> better than emacs.  I think those people are just really good with vim and
> not so good with emacs, so vim seems better to them.
>

I won't claim vim is better than emacs, or vice versa.  The fact that emacs
has a little interpretor in it that makes it extensible certainly lends
itself to some powerful enhancements.  But that said, the reasons I prefer
vim to emacs are:

* Control-key-overload-induced-RSI-injuries.  When I've had extended
interactions with emacs I've had to remap the control key to capslock and
even then I started to experience discomfort.
* I can navigate the curser extremely quickly without moving my hands from
the home row keys, and without chording the ctrl-key.

-Rob
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 09:25:22 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:25:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I feel a little guilty now. I didn't mean to start a
discussion/flamewar about Vi/Emacs... I figured this would be taken as
humor (it was intended as such) as it's the quintessential *nix
flamewar. I don't think we need to rehash the debate here and now, in
2010.

So for anyone who is annoyed that I brought this up, I apologize.

-Erik

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
> of Awesome.
>
> And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
> than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.
>
> ;)
>
> -Erik
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
>> I like 64 bit Ubuntu on my laptop with 4 gigs of ram but the gnome-terminal sucks so I now use konsole exclusively. I then tried the full kde plasma desktop and found it looks very nice and clean but prefer the basic simplicity of gnome interface powerful enough for me yet basic enough to not have to spend any real time learning, just jump in and go.
>>
>> Comments? Suggestions? Random musings? Perhaps a statement on free govenment vs centralized markets?
>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> erik at ekmitchell.com
> http://ekmitchell.com/
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 13:13:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:13:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Ok, I feel a little guilty now. I didn't mean to start a 
> discussion/flamewar about Vi/Emacs... I figured this would be taken as 
> humor (it was intended as such) as it's the quintessential *nix 
> flamewar. I don't think we need to rehash the debate here and now, in 
> 2010.
>
> So for anyone who is annoyed that I brought this up, I apologize.


You should think a little harder next time about whether people really 
want to read all of your crap.  I mean, this could go on, and on, and on. 
We might have days, and days, and days of this silly twaddle, all because 
of you.  It's all your fault -- it's all on you.

While I'm at it, I should point out that people can use subject searches 
and usually "D," or some simple key combination, to delete sets of 
messages all at once.  It does take a slight amount of computer competence 
that not everyone on this list will have, so some people will be bothered 
a lot by extensive discussions that don't interest them, merely because 
they don't have the ability to to search messages and do batch deletes.  I 
do pity them.

But wasn't the stuff about Bill Joy interesting?  I really like those old 
interviews.

Mike


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 13:21:01 2010
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:21:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
>> Ok, I feel a little guilty now. I didn't mean to start a
>> discussion/flamewar about Vi/Emacs... I figured this would be taken as
>> humor (it was intended as such) as it's the quintessential *nix
>> flamewar. I don't think we need to rehash the debate here and now, in
>> 2010.
>>
>> So for anyone who is annoyed that I brought this up, I apologize.
>
>
> You should think a little harder next time about whether people really
> want to read all of your crap. ?I mean, this could go on, and on, and on.
> We might have days, and days, and days of this silly twaddle, all because
> of you. ?It's all your fault -- it's all on you.

Sarcasm detected. Levity established.

>
> While I'm at it, I should point out that people can use subject searches
> and usually "D," or some simple key combination, to delete sets of
> messages all at once. ?It does take a slight amount of computer competence
> that not everyone on this list will have, so some people will be bothered
> a lot by extensive discussions that don't interest them, merely because
> they don't have the ability to to search messages and do batch deletes. ?I
> do pity them.

And how.

>
> But wasn't the stuff about Bill Joy interesting? ?I really like those old
> interviews.

I agree. I watched a couple last night. Very enjoyable.

-Erik

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell -- Web Developer
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
erik at ekmitchell.com
http://ekmitchell.com/


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 14:05:04 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:05:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I feel a little guilty now. I didn't mean to start a
>>> discussion/flamewar about Vi/Emacs... I figured this would be taken as
>>> humor (it was intended as such) as it's the quintessential *nix
>>> flamewar. I don't think we need to rehash the debate here and now, in
>>> 2010.
>>>
>>> So for anyone who is annoyed that I brought this up, I apologize.
>>
>>
>> You should think a little harder next time about whether people really 
>> want to read all of your crap. ?I mean, this could go on, and on, and 
>> on. We might have days, and days, and days of this silly twaddle, all 
>> because of you. ?It's all your fault -- it's all on you.
>
> Sarcasm detected. Levity established.

I was hoping you'd get it.  What could be more ironic than me, the great 
e-mail violator, the blackest pot, calling your kettle black?

I only replied to the vi/emacs bait because I thought it was funny.

These days I'm thinking about encouraging my son to use emacs.  Emacs is a 
little challenging, though, and I don't want to scare him away from Linux 
life, which is going really well right now (even though he *can* boot to 
Win7, he probably won't do it much).

Mike

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Aug 25 14:46:10 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:46:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>

My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at
friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more comfortable with
non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting breed the next
generation will become. 

Time to bust out some UT2004 again... blazing fast on todays hardware and
still runs on Linux.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 2:05 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I feel a little guilty now. I didn't mean to start a
>>> discussion/flamewar about Vi/Emacs... I figured this would be taken as
>>> humor (it was intended as such) as it's the quintessential *nix
>>> flamewar. I don't think we need to rehash the debate here and now, in
>>> 2010.
>>>
>>> So for anyone who is annoyed that I brought this up, I apologize.
>>
>>
>> You should think a little harder next time about whether people really 
>> want to read all of your crap. ?I mean, this could go on, and on, and 
>> on. We might have days, and days, and days of this silly twaddle, all 
>> because of you. ?It's all your fault -- it's all on you.
>
> Sarcasm detected. Levity established.

I was hoping you'd get it.  What could be more ironic than me, the great 
e-mail violator, the blackest pot, calling your kettle black?

I only replied to the vi/emacs bait because I thought it was funny.

These days I'm thinking about encouraging my son to use emacs.  Emacs is a 
little challenging, though, and I don't want to scare him away from Linux 
life, which is going really well right now (even though he *can* boot to 
Win7, he probably won't do it much).

Mike



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 15:59:12 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:59:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:

> My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at 
> friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more comfortable 
> with non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting breed the 
> next generation will become.

My son is just starting college in the next week or so.  He moved to his 
dorm at UW-Madison today.  I think in his peer group there is more status 
attached to Linux than to the other popular OSs.  That's a good sign.

Mike


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Aug 25 16:33:36 2010
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:33:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>

Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes any sense at all.

"Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:
>
>> My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at 
>> friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more comfortable 
>> with non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting breed the 
>> next generation will become.
>
>My son is just starting college in the next week or so.  He moved to his 
>dorm at UW-Madison today.  I think in his peer group there is more status 
>attached to Linux than to the other popular OSs.  That's a good sign.
>
>Mike
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>




From j at packetgod.com  Wed Aug 25 16:54:57 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:54:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim3vxuOC_MpT6ca25=b3QQoRTfQEihizHP0Wpo=@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure thats Apple's entire marketing strategy.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Eric F Crist
<ecrist at secure-computing.net>wrote:

> Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes any
> sense at all.
>
> "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com <mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:
> >
> >> My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at
> >> friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more comfortable
> >> with non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting breed the
> >> next generation will become.
> >
> >My son is just starting college in the next week or so.  He moved to his
> >dorm at UW-Madison today.  I think in his peer group there is more status
> >attached to Linux than to the other popular OSs.  That's a good sign.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Aug 25 18:00:12 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:00:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>;
	from ecrist@secure-computing.net on Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at
	04:33:36PM -0500
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <20100825180012.H29240@real-time.com>

On 08/25 04:33 , Eric F Crist wrote:
> Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes any sense at all.

It does serve as a proxy measure for one's intelligence, willingness to
learn, and willingness to experiment with technology.

How many genuinely stupid, vapid, unwilling to learn people run linux? There
are some; but I posit that the proportion is much lower than in the general
population.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Aug 25 18:24:15 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:24:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>

You obviously haven't been using Linux for long.  I've seen more elitism in the Unix and Linux communities than one would find in any of the Ivy League schools, and that includes the Professors...

Annoying as he'll to those of us who would one day like to see the general public using Linux.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net> wrote:

> Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes any sense at all.
> 
> "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:
>> 
>>> My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at 
>>> friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more comfortable 
>>> with non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting breed the 
>>> next generation will become.
>> 
>> My son is just starting college in the next week or so.  He moved to his 
>> dorm at UW-Madison today.  I think in his peer group there is more status 
>> attached to Linux than to the other popular OSs.  That's a good sign.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 18:55:12 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:55:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251852560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes 
> any sense at all.

BSD, right?  Sorry about that.  Maybe someday your operating system will 
make you popular and girls will like you.

Mike


> "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:
>>
>>> My children mostly never have even used windows, perhaps at 
>>> friends/family/school. Though still young they will be more 
>>> comfortable with non-MS operating systems I think. What an interesting 
>>> breed the next generation will become.
>>
>> My son is just starting college in the next week or so.  He moved to 
>> his dorm at UW-Madison today.  I think in his peer group there is more 
>> status attached to Linux than to the other popular OSs.  That's a good 
>> sign.
>>
>> Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 19:07:49 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:07:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> You obviously haven't been using Linux for long.  I've seen more elitism 
> in the Unix and Linux communities than one would find in any of the Ivy 
> League schools, and that includes the Professors...
>
> Annoying as he'll to those of us who would one day like to see the 
> general public using Linux.

It's a step in the right direction.  First it's "elitist," then it 
attracts users who want to be elite (or is it spelled "1337"?), then you 
have enough of those people around so that the average guy/gal asks his 
geeky friend, "how can I fix my Windows virally-incapacitated Windows 
machine?" and the friend says, "I don't have a lot of time for that, but I 
can install Linux on it with loads of great free software and I'll help 
you to keep it working."  That's actually how my son first got Ubuntu on 
his laptop.  He has another dead Windows box at home (also loaded with 
viruses -- why does that alwayss happen to teenage boys?) with a 64-bit 
processor ready to run Ubuntu next time I get my hands on it.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 19:11:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:11:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100825180012.H29240@real-time.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<20100825180012.H29240@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251908440.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> On 08/25 04:33 , Eric F Crist wrote:
>
>> Sure, because basing status on the operating system someone uses makes 
>> any sense at all.
>
> It does serve as a proxy measure for one's intelligence, willingness to 
> learn, and willingness to experiment with technology.
>
> How many genuinely stupid, vapid, unwilling to learn people run linux? 
> There are some; but I posit that the proportion is much lower than in 
> the general population.


Right, I think it's because the computer skills of the average Linux user 
are much greater than those of the average Windows or Mac user.  It's also 
getting to the point where a lot of Linux enthusiasts make their computers 
do amazing things for cheap that you can't get with Windows (because it is 
just so limited) or Mac (because the hardware is pricey).

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Aug 25 19:32:23 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:32:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251908440.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 07:11:40PM -0500
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<20100825180012.H29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251908440.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100825193223.L29240@real-time.com>

On 08/25 07:11 , Mike Miller wrote:
> It's also 
> getting to the point where a lot of Linux enthusiasts make their computers 
> do amazing things for cheap that you can't get with Windows (because it is 
> just so limited) or Mac (because the hardware is pricey).

It's always been that way. :)

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Aug 25 21:03:33 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:03:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>

On Aug 25, 2010, at 7:07 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
>> You obviously haven't been using Linux for long.  I've seen more elitism 
>> in the Unix and Linux communities than one would find in any of the Ivy 
>> League schools, and that includes the Professors...
>> 
>> Annoying as he'll to those of us who would one day like to see the 
>> general public using Linux.
> 
> It's a step in the right direction.  First it's "elitist," then it 
> attracts users who want to be elite (or is it spelled "1337"?), then you 
> have enough of those people around so that the average guy/gal asks his 
> geeky friend, "how can I fix my Windows virally-incapacitated Windows 
> machine?" and the friend says, "I don't have a lot of time for that, but I 
> can install Linux on it with loads of great free software and I'll help 
> you to keep it working."  That's actually how my son first got Ubuntu on 
> his laptop.  He has another dead Windows box at home (also loaded with 
> viruses -- why does that alwayss happen to teenage boys?) with a 64-bit 
> processor ready to run Ubuntu next time I get my hands on it.
> 
> Mike

That's a good point.  Still, there are many (and I mean too many to count) Linux users I've met over the past 11 years who would rather mock and ridicule their friend who is running Windows than help them install Linux.  Those are the people I'm talking about.

Using Linux does not make you better than anyone else.  Some of the brightest people I have met use Windows for the sole fact that it suits their purposes.  Having to learn a new OS would simply interfere with other more productive uses of their intellect.  At the end of the day, It comes down to personal choice and needs.

I also want to add, I've seen some pretty dumb twits using Linux over the years... Most people possess the ability to learn something technical.  What separates an intellectual from an idiot is how that person uses that knowledge.

-Adam
   

From hpenner at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 21:29:01 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:29:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
Message-ID: <-7713730900741674758@unknownmsgid>

On Aug 25, 2010, at 21:03, Adam Morris <adam.morris at redstargaming.net> wrote:

> On Aug 25, 2010, at 7:07 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
>>
>>> You obviously haven't been using Linux for long.  I've seen more elitism
>>> in the Unix and Linux communities than one would find in any of the Ivy
>>> League schools, and that includes the Professors...
>>>
>>> Annoying as he'll to those of us who would one day like to see the
>>> general public using Linux.
>>
>> It's a step in the right direction.  First it's "elitist," then it
>> attracts users who want to be elite (or is it spelled "1337"?), then you
>> have enough of those people around so that the average guy/gal asks his
>> geeky friend, "how can I fix my Windows virally-incapacitated Windows
>> machine?" and the friend says, "I don't have a lot of time for that, but I
>> can install Linux on it with loads of great free software and I'll help
>> you to keep it working."  That's actually how my son first got Ubuntu on
>> his laptop.  He has another dead Windows box at home (also loaded with
>> viruses -- why does that alwayss happen to teenage boys?) with a 64-bit
>> processor ready to run Ubuntu next time I get my hands on it.
>>
>> Mike
>
> That's a good point.  Still, there are many (and I mean too many to count) Linux users I've met over the past 11 years who would rather mock and ridicule their friend who is running Windows than help them install Linux.  Those are the people I'm talking about.
>
> Using Linux does not make you better than anyone else.  Some of the brightest people I have met use Windows for the sole fact that it suits their purposes.  Having to learn a new OS would simply interfere with other more productive uses of their intellect.  At the end of the day, It comes down to personal choice and needs.
>
> I also want to add, I've seen some pretty dumb twits using Linux over the years... Most people possess the ability to learn something technical.  What separates an intellectual from an idiot is how that person uses that knowledge.
>
> -Adam
>
I think it also has to do with age and occupation.  I've seen "Linux
is only free if your time is worth nothing" in sigs and it's partly
true.  Before ubuntu it seems to me it was mostly younger/student
types whose time really is worth close to nothing, or the curious
types (usually engineers, scientists, academics and the like) who
either were already Unix literate or saw it as something potentially
worth learning for their work. That's


From hpenner at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 21:43:30 2010
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:43:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <-7713730900741674758@unknownmsgid>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<-7713730900741674758@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikkXmkVzAcZR-xDC+wwHroLNXkR8ihOULhCkM=M@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, fat-fingered the send.  Continued below...

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 25, 2010, at 21:03, Adam Morris <adam.morris at redstargaming.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 25, 2010, at 7:07 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
> >>
> >>> You obviously haven't been using Linux for long.  I've seen more
> elitism
> >>> in the Unix and Linux communities than one would find in any of the Ivy
> >>> League schools, and that includes the Professors...
> >>>
> >>> Annoying as he'll to those of us who would one day like to see the
> >>> general public using Linux.
> >>
> >> It's a step in the right direction.  First it's "elitist," then it
> >> attracts users who want to be elite (or is it spelled "1337"?), then you
> >> have enough of those people around so that the average guy/gal asks his
> >> geeky friend, "how can I fix my Windows virally-incapacitated Windows
> >> machine?" and the friend says, "I don't have a lot of time for that, but
> I
> >> can install Linux on it with loads of great free software and I'll help
> >> you to keep it working."  That's actually how my son first got Ubuntu on
> >> his laptop.  He has another dead Windows box at home (also loaded with
> >> viruses -- why does that alwayss happen to teenage boys?) with a 64-bit
> >> processor ready to run Ubuntu next time I get my hands on it.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> > That's a good point.  Still, there are many (and I mean too many to
> count) Linux users I've met over the past 11 years who would rather mock and
> ridicule their friend who is running Windows than help them install Linux.
>  Those are the people I'm talking about.
> >
> > Using Linux does not make you better than anyone else.  Some of the
> brightest people I have met use Windows for the sole fact that it suits
> their purposes.  Having to learn a new OS would simply interfere with other
> more productive uses of their intellect.  At the end of the day, It comes
> down to personal choice and needs.
> >
> > I also want to add, I've seen some pretty dumb twits using Linux over the
> years... Most people possess the ability to learn something technical.  What
> separates an intellectual from an idiot is how that person uses that
> knowledge.
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> I think it also has to do with age and occupation.  I've seen "Linux
> is only free if your time is worth nothing" in sigs and it's partly
> true.  Before ubuntu it seems to me it was mostly younger/student
> types whose time really is worth close to nothing, or the curious
> types (usually engineers, scientists, academics and the like) who
> either were already Unix literate or saw it as something potentially
> worth learning for their work.  Older people with nothing to gain from
> learning something new don't want anything to do with an OS that wants hours
> of your time to learn how things really work under the hood.  Ubuntu has
> reduced the investment cost of using Linux to a large extent, but even my
> wife (a former IT support manager) occasionally asks why we have to use
> "this crazy thing" instead of Windows when a CUPS error or some other minor
> problem occurs.
>

I think that until something like Ubuntu makes it as easy to use as Windows,
Linux will continue to be the province of the 1337 and the motivated.
Unfortunately it seems that the more accessible Linux becomes (judging by
Ubuntu) the more it approaches Windows in terms of hardware requirements.
(One of the reasons I got into Linux was to keep old machines useful.)

It does seem like the best of both worlds, though:  a system that's
(reasonably) easily usable by a non-tech that can do crazy powerful things
in the hands of someone who knows the basics of *nix.
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Aug 25 22:49:33 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 03:49:33 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikkXmkVzAcZR-xDC+wwHroLNXkR8ihOULhCkM=M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com><CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net><-7713730900741674758@unknownmsgid><AANLkTikkXmkVzAcZR-xDC+wwHroLNXkR8ihOULhCkM=M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <754980255-1282794631-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1497723211-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

HDM and dos taught me some early basic concepts of computer operations. Later when I got into linux and openbsd and started reading the rute book I became even more comfortable in dealing with how things worked on a computer and has made me a better windows user (and most likely a louder complainer when trapped in a microsoftism). When some oddball windows issue arises I can whip out perl or even a batch file to band-aid it to get me by. If its some real low level windows issue then at least google frequently has some good ideas because the homogeny of the userbase means its likely someone else has already encountered and overcome the same thing. One of the problems with linuxy systems that windows is actually pretty good at duplicating is distro-to-distro issues. Windows 98 to nt to Xp to vista to 2003 to 7 and 2008 to whatever is nearly the same. One class of problems may not ever even affect one distro (or one release of windows) so your linux userbase and collective knowledge is split up into smaller chunks with one set of users never even knowing of certain problems because their preferred distro is not affected much as in windows.

Maybe we need a internet drivers license? You can't go online until you know how to not buy spam products from unsolicted email or forward that "check out this sad story of a boy with 27 forms of cancer" email to 15 people or else your liver will shrivel up and you will die.  

As for a random CUPS error, hah! Have you not seen the screen that has a bunch of gobbledy-gook about memory fault and it has an all blue background. Then when you reboot it says ntldr missing or corrupt. Lol, thanks a lot windows. It takes 27 minutes to boot into your recovery console.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:43:30 
To: TCLUG Mailing List<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 01:15:57 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:15:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> Using Linux does not make you better than anyone else.  Some of the 
> brightest people I have met use Windows for the sole fact that it suits 
> their purposes.  Having to learn a new OS would simply interfere with 
> other more productive uses of their intellect.  At the end of the day, 
> It comes down to personal choice and needs.

Right.  I do a lot of work that requires GNU/Linux.  When I started 
getting into statistical genetic work, I found that most of the software 
was being made available for SunOS (later called Solaris) in binary 
format.  So you needed a Sun computer to do the work and you had to have 
some UNIX skills.  Scientists with big collaborative projects also were 
using UNIX systems and doing their statistical analyses on those big 
machines.  Now, 15-20 years later, things are much better.  Most people 
are using GNU/Linux, it runs on PCs instead of big iron, and the source 
code is usually available, almost always, for stat genetics programs. 
Most programs also will run on Windows.  Still, because of Windows 
limitations, I do not encourage students to do their work on Windows 
machines.  Most of what we do requires more power and we use 
supercomputers to do the work -- all of those are running GNU/Linux.  So I 
still think GNU/Linux skills are required for people who want to do the 
kind of work I'm doing.  I don't know how else I'd work with files that 
are sometimes 100 GB in size.

That's just me, and people like me.  For academics who mostly read and 
write and don't do really serious number crunching or large-scale data 
management, why not use Windows?  They might fire up a web browser, run 
Microsoft Word, and that's about it.  It doesn't matter what they use and 
they can just as well use any OS.  Windows comes with the computer, 
usually, and it's cheaper than getting a Mac with OS X.

My son wants to do scientific work, and he is still young and not set in 
his ways, so I think he should learn GNU/Linux.  Also, from my experience 
of the past 10-15 years, GNU/Linux is making amazing strides and Windows 
isn't, so I think the future of GNU/Linux looks brighter.

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Aug 26 09:34:37 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:34:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 01:15:57AM -0500
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>

On 08/26 01:15 , Mike Miller wrote:
> That's just me, and people like me.  For academics who mostly read and 
> write and don't do really serious number crunching or large-scale data 
> management, why not use Windows?  They might fire up a web browser, run 
> Microsoft Word, and that's about it.  It doesn't matter what they use and 
> they can just as well use any OS. 

One of the differences in the Linux vs. Windows debate today compared to
what it was 10 years ago, is that Linux and OSX have (by virtue of
competition in the marketplace) forced Microsoft to improve the quality of
their product. So while the default tools you get with the OS are still
crippled and limited compared to GNU/Linux, at least you don't have to
reboot multiple times a day and lose data constantly because of buggy
software.

Fundamentally, Windows doesn't suck as much as it used to, and Linux has a
lot more and better end-user tools now (and the world is more
web-browser-centric), so there's less reason to choose one OS over the
other.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Aug 26 09:40:59 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:40:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu><AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> One of the differences in the Linux vs. Windows debate today compared to
> what it was 10 years ago, is that Linux and OSX have (by virtue of
> competition in the marketplace) forced Microsoft to improve the quality of
> their product.

You don't use Microsoft Office much, do you?... (;


-Yaron

--


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Aug 26 10:14:44 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:14:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>;
	from tclug@freakzilla.com on Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 09:40:59AM -0500
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>

On 08/26 09:40 , Yaron wrote:
> You don't use Microsoft Office much, do you?... (;

I have done my best to avoid it whenever possible. :)
Once of the nice things about working for RTE is that I don't have to deal
with Office. Even back when I needed to write stuff using a word processor,
I tried to use Word Perfect, which only crashed about a third as often.

Really tho, I hate word processors. They tend to get in the way of writing
because they make you worry about form rather than content. Write your stuff
up using a text editor first, then go back and format it later.

I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is the
usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other formatting
tools I might go a different route.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Aug 26 10:24:18 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:24:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <6EEB777E-1BD3-497E-A955-231C54ABCC64@me.com>

This is why I like TextEdit on my MacBook. No frills. Basically, the Apple version of Wordpad, but with a spell-checker built-in.

--
Ryan

On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> Really tho, I hate word processors. They tend to get in the way of writing
> because they make you worry about form rather than content. Write your stuff
> up using a text editor first, then go back and format it later.
> 



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Aug 26 10:53:10 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:53:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008261048330.13152@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

>> You don't use Microsoft Office much, do you?... (;
> I have done my best to avoid it whenever possible. :)

Lucky you (:

It's not that Office CRASHES a lot, I haven't had that problem a lot. It's 
just that it's so insanely over-complex.

I don't get a choice as to what I use at work. I have to use Outlook for 
email, and I have to use Word for documentation. Course I could just not 
write documentation, but I /like/ writing documentation!

Word has just become worse and worse over the years, as have the other 
Office applications. The whole ribbon interface... UGH.

FOSS is certainly not pushing Microsoft to improve those programs at all.

-Yaron

--


From loren.cahlander at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 10:53:49 2010
From: loren.cahlander at gmail.com (Loren Cahlander)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:53:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>


On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> 
> I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is the
> usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other formatting
> tools I might go a different route.

I highly recommend oXygenXML ( http://oxygenxml.com ) for editing DocBook and all XML and XQuery.  It runs on GNU/Linux, Mac OS X and MS Windows.

From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 09:22:49 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:22:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>

On 8/24/2010 4:34 PM, Florin Iucha wrote:
>> faster than sshfs but without sacrificing security?
> NFSv4 over VPN.
> 
> Cheers,
> florin
> 

NFSv3 over VPN. Kerberos (With NFSv4 GSS-API) is only is an network encrypted
authentication protocol. Sure the evil doer will not be able to sniff your secret key, but
your data (Over NFSv4) is still being transmitted over the wire in plain text. It is and
never will be NFSs job to encrypt your data over the wire.

Use a properly configured VPN (OpenVPN is wonderful) and use NFSv3, or any other fast
network file system implantation.

Also, in my experience, compression destroys file transfer rates over OpenSSH (on my LAN).

> $ scp chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 29.1MB/s 00:06
> 
> $ scp -C chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 4.6MB/s 00:38


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 09:39:22 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:39:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NFS Insecure
In-Reply-To: <4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <4C77CE1A.4080501@soul-dev.com>

On 8/27/2010 9:22 AM, Mr. MailingLists wrote:
Sure the evil doer will not be able to sniff your secret key, but
> your data (Over NFSv4) is still being transmitted over the wire in plain text. It is 
*not*
> and never will be NFSs job to encrypt your data over the wire.

Sorry, had to fix it ;-)

Have a wonderful Friday all!


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 10:56:59 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:56:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:

> Also, in my experience, compression destroys file transfer rates over 
> OpenSSH (on my LAN).
>
>> $ scp chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
>> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 29.1MB/s 00:06
>>
>> $ scp -C chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
>> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 4.6MB/s 00:38


The first issue is that your network is super fast.  You are sending about 
230 Mbps uncompressed.  You have to be able to compress and uncompress at 
a faster rate than that.  You don't want to use compression when the 
network is unbelievably fast, but you may want to use it for slower 
networks, though only for certain file types.

The next issue is the file type.  What kind of file were you transferring? 
The thing is, many common files are already compressed.  This is true of 
most image, audio and video formats.  If you try to compress a file that 
is already compressed, it will get larger, not smaller.  This is because 
there is some overhead in compression, and random binary streams 
(essentially what you get in an already-compressed file) cannot be 
compressed.

Try making a big text file with a lot of redundancy in it, something that 
will compress a lot.  For example:

mkdir junk ; cd junk
for i in $(seq 1000); do echo "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" >> foo.txt ; done
for i in $(seq 1000); do cat foo.txt >> bar.txt ; done
for i in $(seq 10); do cat bar.txt >> baz.txt ; done

rm foo.txt bar.txt

$ wc -c baz.txt
440000000 baz.txt

$ gzip -c baz.txt | wc -c
1279822


In other words, baz.txt will compresses from 440 MB down to 1.3 MB.  Try 
making that baz.txt file and see what its transfer speed looks like with 
and without compression.  On my computer, to compress the file takes about 
3.2 seconds.  If your CPUs on both ends are at least that fast, then 
compression probably will be faster for that file than uncompressed 
transfer.  If compression doesn't help you there, it will never help on 
your LAN, but it still will help for compressable files across a slower 
network, especially when both machines have fast CPUs and are available 
(not overloaded with other jobs).

A few days ago I was transferring some files from the U to Scripps in San 
Diego.  The files were highly compressable, but transfer was very slow.  I 
think it was because the CPU on the other end was dealing with a lot of 
jobs, so it wasn't readily available for uncompressing the incoming data 
stream, and that slowed it way down.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 11:37:12 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:37:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<352368932E5D4B02B7B30F3703A32580@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251557550.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Loren Cahlander wrote:

> On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
>> I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is the 
>> usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other 
>> formatting tools I might go a different route.
>
> I highly recommend oXygenXML ( http://oxygenxml.com ) for editing 
> DocBook and all XML and XQuery.  It runs on GNU/Linux, Mac OS X and MS 
> Windows.

You had me interested for a minute, but then I realized that it is not 
free software.  I can't do that anymore.  I've had too many problems with 
lock-in.  It's not about the money.

Mike


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 12:09:03 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:09:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>

Comments inline:

On 8/27/2010 10:56 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:
> 
>> Also, in my experience, compression destroys file transfer rates over 
>> OpenSSH (on my LAN).
>>
>>> $ scp chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
>>> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 29.1MB/s 00:06
>>>
>>> $ scp -C chickenclucker:~/175MBfile .
>>> 175MBfile 100% 175MB 4.6MB/s 00:38
> 
> 
> The first issue is that your network is super fast.  You are sending about 
> 230 Mbps uncompressed.  You have to be able to compress and uncompress at 
> a faster rate than that.  You don't want to use compression when the 
> network is unbelievably fast, but you may want to use it for slower 
> networks, though only for certain file types.

Trying to compress something that cannot be compressed also uses CPU (a lot) time even
though you get nothing in return (but possibly a larger file).

> 
> The next issue is the file type.  What kind of file were you transferring? 

dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175

> The thing is, many common files are already compressed.  This is true of 
> most image, audio and video formats.  If you try to compress a file that 
> is already compressed, it will get larger, not smaller.  This is because 
> there is some overhead in compression, and random binary streams 
> (essentially what you get in an already-compressed file) cannot be 
> compressed.

Exactly, it really depends on how compressible the data is.

> 
> Try making a big text file with a lot of redundancy in it, something that 
> will compress a lot.  For example:
> 
> mkdir junk ; cd junk
> for i in $(seq 1000); do echo "0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" >> foo.txt ; done
> for i in $(seq 1000); do cat foo.txt >> bar.txt ; done
> for i in $(seq 10); do cat bar.txt >> baz.txt ; done
> 
> rm foo.txt bar.txt
> 
> $ wc -c baz.txt
> 440000000 baz.txt
> 
> $ gzip -c baz.txt | wc -c
> 1279822
> 
> 
> In other words, baz.txt will compresses from 440 MB down to 1.3 MB.  Try 
> making that baz.txt file and see what its transfer speed looks like with 
> and without compression.  On my computer, to compress the file takes about 
> 3.2 seconds.  If your CPUs on both ends are at least that fast, then 
> compression probably will be faster for that file than uncompressed 
> transfer.  If compression doesn't help you there, it will never help on 
> your LAN, but it still will help for compressable files across a slower 
> network, especially when both machines have fast CPUs and are available 
> (not overloaded with other jobs).

My test case is being performed on the same machine transmitting to a jail. Here are my
findings:

dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
175MBFile 100% 175MB 9.7MB/s 00:18

time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
12.513s
183500800 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile
183556808 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile.gz

dd if=/dev/zero of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05

time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
0m2.552s
183500800 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile
178393 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile.gz

Interesting results and I learned something new today (I friggan love when that happens!).

> 
> A few days ago I was transferring some files from the U to Scripps in San 
> Diego.  The files were highly compressable, but transfer was very slow.  I 
> think it was because the CPU on the other end was dealing with a lot of 
> jobs, so it wasn't readily available for uncompressing the incoming data 
> stream, and that slowed it way down.
> 
> Mike
> 


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 12:21:33 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:21:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:37:12AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Loren Cahlander wrote:
> 
> > On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> >
> >> I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is the 
> >> usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other 
> >> formatting tools I might go a different route.
> >
> > I highly recommend oXygenXML ( http://oxygenxml.com ) for editing 
> > DocBook and all XML and XQuery.  It runs on GNU/Linux, Mac OS X and MS 
> > Windows.
> 
> You had me interested for a minute, but then I realized that it is not 
> free software.  I can't do that anymore.  I've had too many problems with 
> lock-in.  It's not about the money.
> 
> Mike

Could I ask what problems you've had if its not about the money?  I can understand not wanting to use free software (as in libre), but it sounds to me like you've had some other issues over the years.

As an aside I've used oXygenXML in my last job, and its a pretty slick app.  I don't think that its really worth the price but I wasn't the one paying, so I didn't complain.

-Adam



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 13:01:26 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:01:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:37:12AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Loren Cahlander wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is 
>>>> the usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other 
>>>> formatting tools I might go a different route.
>>>
>>> I highly recommend oXygenXML ( http://oxygenxml.com ) for editing 
>>> DocBook and all XML and XQuery.  It runs on GNU/Linux, Mac OS X and MS 
>>> Windows.
>>
>> You had me interested for a minute, but then I realized that it is not 
>> free software.  I can't do that anymore.  I've had too many problems 
>> with lock-in.  It's not about the money.
>
> Could I ask what problems you've had if its not about the money?  I can 
> understand not wanting to use free software (as in libre), but it sounds 
> to me like you've had some other issues over the years.


The basic problem is that you dedicate yourself to learning the software 
and then you become dependent.  This has happened to me, definitely. 
Consider WordPerfect 5.1 -- where is that?  What good are my skills now? 
When I was in grad school about 15-20 years ago I spent a lot of time on 
that and now I can't use it.  With free software I'd have the code and I 
would hire someone to make it work if it was no longer supported and I 
really wanted it.

Related to that problem, once I have skills with some program, then I 
become an advocate for it.  I don't want to work for the sales or 
marketing division of a software company.  I especially don't want to push 
students to use a program that's going to cost them an arm and a leg after 
they graduate.  An example of this is SAS.  We used it a lot and taught 
students how to use it.  We never paid much for it.  One day I wanted to 
put SAS on a new Linux box and I expected the usual site-license pricing 
but SAS Corp said no -- we could have the usual university discount, but 
the site license was for other UNIX OSs, not for Linux.  Now I found out 
that SAS with university discount costs $3,800/year and for a student who 
graduates and wants his company to buy it or wants to buy it himself for 
consulting work, it would cost five times as much: $19,000/year.  That 
made my blood boil.  I stopped using SAS and now I use GNU R.  GNU R is 
(A) better than SAS in most ways, (B) it is the top choice of serious 
academic statisticians and (C) it is free software, both in dollars and in 
terms of restrictions on the user.

Another really important observation is that free software has grown 
extremely fast in only a few years.  I see Linux as a better choice than 
Windows and the other UNIXes at any price, GNU R as better than all other 
stat packages at any price, and most or all of the free options as good 
enough to be preferred to their sometimes slightly superior (right now) 
non-free competitors.  I only use non-free when forced to do so by an 
employer, when some hardware requires it or when it's part of a service 
like Google services.

Mike


From random at argle.org  Fri Aug 27 13:36:52 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:36:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org>

On 10-08-24 09:15 PM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
> Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
> of Awesome.
>
> And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
> than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.
>
Programmers generally prefer emacs for its power and features. These are 
being replaced by more advanced IDE's on most platforms, but there are 
still places where emacs is best for the job.

Admins generally prefer vi for it's ubiquity and robust operation. 
Believe it or not, the modal operation of vi makes editing files easier 
if you are on any sort of impaired link (like an overloaded wireless 
network).

Different tools for different jobs. You won't catch carpenters arguing 
over whether claw hammers or screwdrivers are better, despite that both 
are used to insert and remove fastening devices.

--
Dan


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Aug 27 13:50:46 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:50:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <66FF8EE0-4471-4993-AE81-FF548E671DD6@me.com>


On Aug 27, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:37:12AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Loren Cahlander wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 26, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I write doco using Vim and Docbook (when it's not wiki'ed, which is 
>>>>> the usual route these days); tho if I knew more about XML or other 
>>>>> formatting tools I might go a different route.
>>>> 
>>>> I highly recommend oXygenXML ( http://oxygenxml.com ) for editing 
>>>> DocBook and all XML and XQuery.  It runs on GNU/Linux, Mac OS X and MS 
>>>> Windows.
>>> 
>>> You had me interested for a minute, but then I realized that it is not 
>>> free software.  I can't do that anymore.  I've had too many problems 
>>> with lock-in.  It's not about the money.
>> 
>> Could I ask what problems you've had if its not about the money?  I can 
>> understand not wanting to use free software (as in libre), but it sounds 
>> to me like you've had some other issues over the years.
> 
> 
> The basic problem is that you dedicate yourself to learning the software 
> and then you become dependent.  This has happened to me, definitely. 
> Consider WordPerfect 5.1 -- where is that?  What good are my skills now? 
> When I was in grad school about 15-20 years ago I spent a lot of time on 
> that and now I can't use it.  With free software I'd have the code and I 
> would hire someone to make it work if it was no longer supported and I 
> really wanted it.
> 
> Related to that problem, once I have skills with some program, then I 
> become an advocate for it.  I don't want to work for the sales or 
> marketing division of a software company.  I especially don't want to push 
> students to use a program that's going to cost them an arm and a leg after 
> they graduate.  An example of this is SAS.  We used it a lot and taught 
> students how to use it.  We never paid much for it.  One day I wanted to 
> put SAS on a new Linux box and I expected the usual site-license pricing 
> but SAS Corp said no -- we could have the usual university discount, but 
> the site license was for other UNIX OSs, not for Linux.  Now I found out 
> that SAS with university discount costs $3,800/year and for a student who 
> graduates and wants his company to buy it or wants to buy it himself for 
> consulting work, it would cost five times as much: $19,000/year.  That 
> made my blood boil.  I stopped using SAS and now I use GNU R.  GNU R is 
> (A) better than SAS in most ways, (B) it is the top choice of serious 
> academic statisticians and (C) it is free software, both in dollars and in 
> terms of restrictions on the user.
> 
> Another really important observation is that free software has grown 
> extremely fast in only a few years.  I see Linux as a better choice than 
> Windows and the other UNIXes at any price, GNU R as better than all other 
> stat packages at any price, and most or all of the free options as good 
> enough to be preferred to their sometimes slightly superior (right now) 
> non-free competitors.  I only use non-free when forced to do so by an 
> employer, when some hardware requires it or when it's part of a service 
> like Google services.
> 
> Mike

The questions is this: WTH is SAS? It's not Serial attached SCSI.




From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 14:02:52 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:02:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <66FF8EE0-4471-4993-AE81-FF548E671DD6@me.com>
References: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<66FF8EE0-4471-4993-AE81-FF548E671DD6@me.com>
Message-ID: <4C780BDC.2080207@soul-dev.com>

On 8/27/2010 1:50 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> The questions is this: WTH is SAS? It's not Serial attached SCSI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAS_%28software%29

Be glad you have not heard of it (view from support side).


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 14:46:31 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:46:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <66FF8EE0-4471-4993-AE81-FF548E671DD6@me.com>
References: <f258003e-aeb6-4af9-935c-6e9ffbf5c776@email.android.com>
	<CE0BA63E-1553-4159-9B09-A082EA3D12C7@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<66FF8EE0-4471-4993-AE81-FF548E671DD6@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271440590.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> The questions is this: WTH is SAS? It's not Serial attached SCSI.

Ha!  I was forgotting about the other SAS(es) while writing that.  I think 
it's also a Swedish airline.  The one I had in mind was Statistical 
Analysis Software:

http://www.sas.com/company/about/

You will probably find this interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/technology/business-computing/07program.html
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/sas-warms-to-open-source-one-letter-at-a-time/

One nice thing about SAS is that they have always treated their employees 
extremely well.  It was a great place for developers to work:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/18/60minutes/main550102.shtml

Mike


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 14:54:49 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:54:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100827195448.GA30861@weegee.ath.cx>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 01:01:26PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> Related to that problem, once I have skills with some program, then I 
> become an advocate for it.  I don't want to work for the sales or 
> marketing division of a software company.  I especially don't want to push 
> students to use a program that's going to cost them an arm and a leg after 
> they graduate.  An example of this is SAS.  We used it a lot and taught 
> students how to use it.  We never paid much for it.  One day I wanted to 
> put SAS on a new Linux box and I expected the usual site-license pricing 
> but SAS Corp said no -- we could have the usual university discount, but 
> the site license was for other UNIX OSs, not for Linux.  Now I found out 
> that SAS with university discount costs $3,800/year and for a student who 
> graduates and wants his company to buy it or wants to buy it himself for 
> consulting work, it would cost five times as much: $19,000/year.  That 
> made my blood boil.  I stopped using SAS and now I use GNU R.  GNU R is 
> (A) better than SAS in most ways, (B) it is the top choice of serious 
> academic statisticians and (C) it is free software, both in dollars and in 
> terms of restrictions on the user.

I can definitely understand and relate to that.  I've used plenty of free software that has been lightyears better than similar proprietary products.  Of course I've also used proprietary products that I'm still desparately searching for a good FOSS replacement for, but that is another discussion altogether.

I do have a counter-point for you though.  Many companies expect their students to have even a little experience out of the classroom with products such as SAS and SPSS.  Its frustrating, especially for someone who is a strong advocate for FOSS such as you, myself, and many other people on this list, but its a fact of life.  On the flipside, its always good to know cheap alternatives, but I know from personal experience that some companies equate free or low cost with low quality.

Simply put the mentality is frustrating but its very common in the business world with large corporations.  Especially with something like R which is better than most of the proprietary products out there (I use it on a regular basis myself).

-Adam



From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 14:59:20 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:59:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org>
Message-ID: <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 01:36:52PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> On 10-08-24 09:15 PM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
> > Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
> > of Awesome.
> >
> > And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
> > than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.
> >
> Programmers generally prefer emacs for its power and features. These are 
> being replaced by more advanced IDE's on most platforms, but there are 
> still places where emacs is best for the job.

Relgious war aside, can you speak where you're getting this from?  I'm a programmer myself, and I hang out with programmer types, and I would say pretty much all of them use Vi unless they've switched to an IDE or spent their entire lives in the Windows world.  (And many of them, including myself, use plugins to give those IDEs Vi keybindings if such a thing exists for that IDE.)

-Adam



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 15:00:53 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:

> dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
> scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
> scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 9.7MB/s 00:18
>
> time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
> 12.513s
> 183500800 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile
> 183556808 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile.gz
>
> dd if=/dev/zero of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
> scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
> scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
>
> time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
> 0m2.552s
> 183500800 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile
> 178393 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile.gz
>
> Interesting results and I learned something new today (I friggan love when that happens!).


Me too because I don't think I've ever used dd.

Related question:  I'm pretty sure there's a way to pipe the stdout to ssh 
and have it transfer to /dev/null on the other end so that you can compare 
speeds for arbitrarily large transfers without making files.  Anyone know?

dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024k count=4000 | ssh ...

I think if you were to make your file much bigger, maybe several 
gigabytes, you'd see a big benefit of compression.  It's not a realistic 
example though because your file is just the same null character repeated 
a gazillion times.  So, on your network, running at 250 Mbps or so, you 
probably never want to use compression.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 15:27:42 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:27:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527220.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> Relgious war aside, can you speak where you're getting this from?  I'm a 
> programmer myself, and I hang out with programmer types, and I would say 
> pretty much all of them use Vi unless they've switched to an IDE or 
> spent their entire lives in the Windows world.  (And many of them, 
> including myself, use plugins to give those IDEs Vi keybindings if such 
> a thing exists for that IDE.)


Are there data on this?  Surveys?

Mike


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 15:37:14 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:37:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 03:00:53PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:
> 
> > dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
> > scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> > 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
> > scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> > 175MBFile 100% 175MB 9.7MB/s 00:18
> >
> > time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
> > 12.513s
> > 183500800 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile
> > 183556808 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile.gz
> >
> > dd if=/dev/zero of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
> > scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> > 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
> > scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
> > 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
> >
> > time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
> > 0m2.552s
> > 183500800 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile
> > 178393 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile.gz
> >
> > Interesting results and I learned something new today (I friggan love when that happens!).
> 
> 
> Me too because I don't think I've ever used dd.
> 
> Related question:  I'm pretty sure there's a way to pipe the stdout to ssh 
> and have it transfer to /dev/null on the other end so that you can compare 
> speeds for arbitrarily large transfers without making files.  Anyone know?
> 
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024k count=4000 | ssh ...
> 
> I think if you were to make your file much bigger, maybe several 
> gigabytes, you'd see a big benefit of compression.  It's not a realistic 
> example though because your file is just the same null character repeated 
> a gazillion times.  So, on your network, running at 250 Mbps or so, you 
> probably never want to use compression.
> 
> Mike

I believe that copying to /dev/null would go so quickly that it wouldn't be a valid test.

I tested this on my local filesystem:

	$ dd if=/dev/zero of=./testfile bs=1024K count=1000
	1000+0 records in
	1000+0 records out
	1048576000 bytes (1.0 GB) copied, 9.25593 s, 113 MB/s
	$ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1024K count=1000
	1000+0 records in
	1000+0 records out
	1048576000 bytes (1.0 GB) copied, 0.28883 s, 3.6 GB/s

The difference here, IIRC, is that /dev/null is just a bit bucket that immediately and instantly discards whatever is copied to it.  The speed comes from the fact that /dev/null doesn't exercise the disk in this case.

-Adam



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 15:42:46 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:42:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100827195448.GA30861@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827195448.GA30861@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527570.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> I've also used proprietary products that I'm still desparately searching 
> for a good FOSS replacement for, but that is another discussion 
> altogether.

I know about that.  Right now I don't use Mathematica, or have much of a 
need for it, but I don't think anything out there can do what Mathematica 
does, not at that level, so I could still see myself using it or 
recommending it to my son, but I would proceed cautiously, always trying 
to use free software to do the same work whenever the free software could 
do it.


> I do have a counter-point for you though.  Many companies expect their 
> students to have even a little experience out of the classroom with 
> products such as SAS and SPSS.  Its frustrating, especially for someone 
> who is a strong advocate for FOSS such as you, myself, and many other 
> people on this list, but its a fact of life.

We know about that too.  That has been the main excuse for teaching SAS to 
the Master's students in biostat courses.  Things are changing quickly 
these days (like the NY Times articles suggest) and it won't be long 
before all they need to know about SAS is how to get data out of SAS and 
into R.  There will still be legacy code problems, I'm sure, so someone 
will have to know SAS and I wouldn't try to dissuade students from 
learning it, but I wouldn't make it a requirement for anyone's degree.


> On the flipside, its always good to know cheap alternatives, but I know 
> from personal experience that some companies equate free or low cost 
> with low quality.
>
> Simply put the mentality is frustrating but its very common in the 
> business world with large corporations.  Especially with something like 
> R which is better than most of the proprietary products out there (I use 
> it on a regular basis myself).

A company that wants to do well will find ways to work with R.  One great 
reason -- more good young stat people are going to want to use it.  Using 
it will improve their productivity.  That is one of the reasons why Linux 
has taken off.  It's not just the differences between Linux and Solaris, 
say, it's that more people know Linux and are comfortable working with it, 
so it's easier to hire a really good Linux sysadmin than one who does 
Solaris or HPUX or Irix or AIX.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 27 16:03:41 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:03:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527220.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMELADCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 3:28 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
>
>
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
>
> > Relgious war aside, can you speak where you're getting this
> from?  I'm a
> > programmer myself, and I hang out with programmer types, and I
> would say
> > pretty much all of them use Vi unless they've switched to an IDE or
> > spent their entire lives in the Windows world.  (And many of them,
> > including myself, use plugins to give those IDEs Vi keybindings if such
> > a thing exists for that IDE.)
>
>
> Are there data on this?  Surveys?
>
> Mike


In my experience (considerable: with several hundred programmers doing stuff
ranging from supercomputing OS and language stuff, to IT to embedded and
secure avionics, and so on... )  those who do kinda small single-thread
stuff like I/O intensive IT stuff will prefer vi, while those (eg, MIT PhDs)
who do huge and inter-related stuff will prefer Emacs.  Like most else, it's
context-dependent.   No surveys, except herding such cats on aerospace
contract projects and programs which have formal reviews, deliverables, and
so on.


Chuck



From florin at iucha.net  Fri Aug 27 16:08:06 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:08:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527220.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527220.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100827210806.GN26890@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 03:27:42PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > Relgious war aside, can you speak where you're getting this from?  I'm a 
> > programmer myself, and I hang out with programmer types, and I would say 
> > pretty much all of them use Vi unless they've switched to an IDE or 
> > spent their entire lives in the Windows world.  (And many of them, 
> > including myself, use plugins to give those IDEs Vi keybindings if such 
> > a thing exists for that IDE.)
> 
> Are there data on this?  Surveys?

I know a bunch of guys in our office use VIM? but I don't know anybody
who uses Emacs.  (We work on firmware design for medical devices.)

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 16:16:42 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:16:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <4C782B3A.1030207@soul-dev.com>

On 8/27/2010 3:37 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> I believe that copying to /dev/null would go so quickly that it wouldn't be a valid test.
> 
> I tested this on my local filesystem:
> 
> 	$ dd if=/dev/zero of=./testfile bs=1024K count=1000
> 	1000+0 records in
> 	1000+0 records out
> 	1048576000 bytes (1.0 GB) copied, 9.25593 s, 113 MB/s
> 	$ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1024K count=1000
> 	1000+0 records in
> 	1000+0 records out
> 	1048576000 bytes (1.0 GB) copied, 0.28883 s, 3.6 GB/s
> 
> The difference here, IIRC, is that /dev/null is just a bit bucket that immediately and instantly discards whatever is copied to it.  The speed comes from the fact that /dev/null doesn't exercise the disk in this case.
> 
> -Adam
> 

Both /dev/zero and /dev/null both act as data sinks. /dev/null is not a source of any data.

In effect when piping data from /dev/zero to /dev/null does not touch your FS in any way ,
but really is in effect a stress test of sorts of your CPU. How fast can the CPU produce
null characters.

Try a 'screen cat /dev/zero > /dev/null' and take a gander at 'top' and watch your CPU
time disappear.


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Fri Aug 27 16:29:56 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:29:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <4C782B3A.1030207@soul-dev.com>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>
	<4C782B3A.1030207@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <4C782E54.8090204@soul-dev.com>

> 
> In effect when piping data from /dev/zero to /dev/null does not touch your FS in any way ,
In effect when *redirecting*

Gotta keep the terminology right, I hate being a perfectionist (or do I?).


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 16:48:01 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:48:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMELADCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527220.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMELADCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20100827214801.GB431@weegee.ath.cx>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 04:03:41PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> In my experience (considerable: with several hundred programmers doing stuff
> ranging from supercomputing OS and language stuff, to IT to embedded and
> secure avionics, and so on... )  those who do kinda small single-thread
> stuff like I/O intensive IT stuff will prefer vi, while those (eg, MIT PhDs)
> who do huge and inter-related stuff will prefer Emacs.  Like most else, it's
> context-dependent.   No surveys, except herding such cats on aerospace
> contract projects and programs which have formal reviews, deliverables, and
> so on.
> 
> 
> Chuck

If by huge and inter-related you mean projects with 800,000+ lines of code, I definitely can attest that I've seen plenty of people use Vi on projects like that (including myself).

I'm wondering if a large bit has to do with schooling and where you work.  I know that at my school Vi (and for those who couldn't cut it, Pico) was the editor of choice of everyone because our Professors used it.  I can understand the use of Vi in the SysAdmin world because Vi is generally guaranteed to be on any Unix system, whereas Emacs isn't, but for programmers I'm betting if you go to a place out of school that is using Vi for programming, you'll probably end up using Vi.

-Adam



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 16:55:03 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:55:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827203714.GA431@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271651210.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 03:00:53PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Related question:  I'm pretty sure there's a way to pipe the stdout to 
>> ssh and have it transfer to /dev/null on the other end so that you can 
>> compare speeds for arbitrarily large transfers without making files. 
>> Anyone know?
>>
>> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024k count=4000 | ssh ...
>>
>> I think if you were to make your file much bigger, maybe several 
>> gigabytes, you'd see a big benefit of compression.  It's not a 
>> realistic example though because your file is just the same null 
>> character repeated a gazillion times.  So, on your network, running at 
>> 250 Mbps or so, you probably never want to use compression.
>
> I believe that copying to /dev/null would go so quickly that it wouldn't 
> be a valid test.

I don't mean to copy to /dev/null on the same machine.  I mean that you 
generate data using dd and /dev/zero on one machine, send that to stdout, 
catch it with ssh and send it to a second machine where it is received 
into /dev/null on that machine.  That is without compression.  The second 
test does the same thing except that it uses ssh with -C option.  For a 
third comparison you could use gzip -c on the sending machine and gunzip 
-c on the receiving machine.

The idea is to test the transfer speed for gigabytes of data without 
having to use any HDD space.

Mike


From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Fri Aug 27 16:49:50 2010
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:49:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>

Mike Miller wrote, On 08/27/10 15:00:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:
>> dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175>
>> scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
>> scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 9.7MB/s 00:18
>>
>> time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
>> 12.513s
>> 183500800 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile
>> 183556808 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile.gz
>>
>> dd if=/dev/zero of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175
>> scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
>> scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
>>
>> time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
>> 0m2.552s
>> 183500800 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile
>> 178393 Aug 27 12:03 175MBFile.gz
>>
>> Interesting results and I learned something new today (I friggan love when that happens!).
> 
> 
> Me too because I don't think I've ever used dd.
> 
> Related question:  I'm pretty sure there's a way to pipe the stdout to ssh 
> and have it transfer to /dev/null on the other end so that you can compare 
> speeds for arbitrarily large transfers without making files.  Anyone know?
> 
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024k count=4000 | ssh ...
> 
> I think if you were to make your file much bigger, maybe several 
> gigabytes, you'd see a big benefit of compression.  It's not a realistic 
> example though because your file is just the same null character repeated 
> a gazillion times.  So, on your network, running at 250 Mbps or so, you 
> probably never want to use compression.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

I believe that would be:

dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1000 | ssh user at server dd of=/dev/null

If you execute a command via ssh directly, it will receive any pipes
that were locally assigned to ssh.

e.g.:
ssh user at server echo 'hello world' > response.txt
This creates a response.txt file on the local system in the current
directory even though the command was executed on the remote server.

ssh user at server 'echo "hello world" > response.txt'
This creates a response.txt file on the remote server, notice that the
entire command was enclosed in 's, including the the stdout redirection.

cat bigfile|gzip|ssh user at server 'gunzip|tr a-z A-Z|gzip' >bigfile.gz
This is a bit ridiculous, but you can start to see some uses for all
this.  Assuming you have good bandwidth to a faster machine, you could
offload some tasks to a remote server.  Of course if that were true, you
would probably be better off with netcat or /dev/tcp, as they don't have
the overhead of encrypting the stream, but you would have to trust the
network they are going over with your cleartext data.

Chris Frederick


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Fri Aug 27 17:14:53 2010
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:14:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <8069708F-9EE3-4E72-AE5E-7033232B5682@umn.edu>



On Aug 27, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote, On 08/27/10 15:00:
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Mr. MailingLists wrote:
>>> dd if=/dev/random of=175MBFile bs=1024k count=175>
>>> scp 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 35.0MB/s 00:05
>>> scp -C 175MBFile chickenclucker:~/
>>> 175MBFile 100% 175MB 9.7MB/s 00:18
>>> 
>>> time gzip -c 175MBFile > 175MBFile.gz
>>> 12.513s
>>> 183500800 Aug 27 11:58 175MBFile
>>> 183


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 17:24:55 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:24:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271711560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Chris Frederick wrote:

> I believe that would be:
>
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1000 | ssh user at server dd of=/dev/null
>
> If you execute a command via ssh directly, it will receive any pipes 
> that were locally assigned to ssh.
>
> e.g.:
> ssh user at server echo 'hello world' > response.txt
> This creates a response.txt file on the local system in the current
> directory even though the command was executed on the remote server.
>
> ssh user at server 'echo "hello world" > response.txt'
> This creates a response.txt file on the remote server, notice that the
> entire command was enclosed in 's, including the the stdout redirection.
>
> cat bigfile|gzip|ssh user at server 'gunzip|tr a-z A-Z|gzip' >bigfile.gz
>
> This is a bit ridiculous, but you can start to see some uses for all 
> this.  Assuming you have good bandwidth to a faster machine, you could 
> offload some tasks to a remote server.  Of course if that were true, you 
> would probably be better off with netcat or /dev/tcp, as they don't have 
> the overhead of encrypting the stream, but you would have to trust the 
> network they are going over with your cleartext data.


My use for that kind of thing in the past has been to use tar to transfer 
directory trees.

I think this is what I was looking for:

dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1000 | ssh user at server cat - > /dev/null

It is tricky to time it, though.  If I do this:

time dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1000 | ssh user at server cat - > /dev/null

The time to enter the password gets counted in the "real" time.

Anyway, testing from office (at the U) to home (Qwest 40 Mbps, 
supposedly), it is *way* faster with -C than without.  It took about 50% 
longer to send 20 MB without -C than to send 200 MB (ten times the data) 
with -C.  So I can get up to 15x improvement with -C.

Mike


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Aug 27 17:37:39 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:37:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] compression in file transfers (was "NFS Insecure")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271711560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271711560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <603809F5-950B-48DE-854D-B9E954C9F9CF@redstargaming.net>

On Aug 27, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is tricky to time it, though.  If I do this:
> 
> time dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1000 | ssh user at server cat - > /dev/null
> 
> The time to enter the password gets counted in the "real" time.
> 
> Anyway, testing from office (at the U) to home (Qwest 40 Mbps, 
> supposedly), it is *way* faster with -C than without.  It took about 50% 
> longer to send 20 MB without -C than to send 200 MB (ten times the data) 
> with -C.  So I can get up to 15x improvement with -C.
> 
> Mike

What about using an ssh key so you don't need to enter the password.

-Adam


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 27 17:46:49 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:46:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100827214801.GB431@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIELCDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Adam Morris
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 4:48 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 04:03:41PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> > In my experience (considerable: with several hundred
> programmers doing stuff
> > ranging from supercomputing OS and language stuff, to IT to embedded and
> > secure avionics, and so on... )  those who do kinda small single-thread
> > stuff like I/O intensive IT stuff will prefer vi, while those
> (eg, MIT PhDs)
> > who do huge and inter-related stuff will prefer Emacs.  Like
> most else, it's
> > context-dependent.   No surveys, except herding such cats on aerospace
> > contract projects and programs which have formal reviews,
> deliverables, and
> > so on.
> >
> >
> > Chuck
>
> If by huge and inter-related you mean projects with 800,000+
> lines of code, I definitely can attest that I've seen plenty of
> people use Vi on projects like that (including myself).
>
> I'm wondering if a large bit has to do with schooling and where
> you work.  I know that at my school Vi (and for those who
> couldn't cut it, Pico) was the editor of choice of everyone
> because our Professors used it.  I can understand the use of Vi
> in the SysAdmin world because Vi is generally guaranteed to be on
> any Unix system, whereas Emacs isn't, but for programmers I'm
> betting if you go to a place out of school that is using Vi for
> programming, you'll probably end up using Vi.
>
> -Adam
>


Is your experience from aerospace where there are formal requirements,
juried reviews, etc, or from a context of individual contributors working to
self-imposed or locally imposed requirements? In satellite signal
processing, secure comm, life-critical avionics, and so on, vi is seldom
used on "big things".  I'm referring to real-time  life critical cases, not
school or IT or academic med. In that aerospace experience base, vi is much
less likely, but project teams may select "team tools" based on particular
tasks, people, and so on.


Chuck



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 18:23:21 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:23:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] usng ssh keys (was "compression in file transfers")
In-Reply-To: <603809F5-950B-48DE-854D-B9E954C9F9CF@redstargaming.net>
References: <AANLkTinqbnJ7_aMeN=+TbsOj1jMeZwBAZ0PnEiewULa8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikyzR=7AW7+vHf6Fo10Uc0Qy1HbNLkOH9RUm7wi@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271711560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<603809F5-950B-48DE-854D-B9E954C9F9CF@redstargaming.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271806420.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

> What about using an ssh key so you don't need to enter the password.


Glad you brought it up!

I'm glad because I've been wanting to set this up, but I do have some 
simple questions and maybe some of you can answer.

(1) Security -- If a password is not needed, then that must mean that if 
an account is accessed by an unauthorized user, that user can access 
accounts on other machines that are accessible via ssh key.  How much of a 
problem is this?

(2) Control -- Is this something that is allowed or disallowed by 
/etc/sshd_config?  It looks like it.  Can I restrict passwordless 
authentication using keys to certain users or to certain remote machines?

(3) Setup -- Is there a recommended guide on how to set this up?  What 
options do I need to consider?

I definitely want to set this up between my home and office, both of which 
have static IP.  I probably will want to use it even more than that, but I 
would proceed somewhat cautiously.

Best,

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Aug 27 18:40:24 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:40:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] usng ssh keys (was "compression in file	transfers")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271806420.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008241522230.16123@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100824213454.GG26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<4C77CA39.8070602@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271033460.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C77F12F.7050501@soul-dev.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271451000.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C7832FE.7000602@cdf123.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271711560.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<603809F5-950B-48DE-854D-B9E954C9F9CF@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271806420.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100827234023.GO26890@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 06:23:21PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > What about using an ssh key so you don't need to enter the password.
> 
> (1) Security -- If a password is not needed, then that must mean that if 
> an account is accessed by an unauthorized user, that user can access 
> accounts on other machines that are accessible via ssh key.  How much of a 
> problem is this?

man ssh-agent

Don't forget to add a password to the ssh key.

> (2) Control -- Is this something that is allowed or disallowed by 
> /etc/sshd_config?  It looks like it.  Can I restrict passwordless 
> authentication using keys to certain users or to certain remote machines?

Yes.

> (3) Setup -- Is there a recommended guide on how to set this up?  What 
> options do I need to consider?

Read the man page and you'll get it.

> I definitely want to set this up between my home and office, both of which 
> have static IP.  I probably will want to use it even more than that, but I 
> would proceed somewhat cautiously.

Cheers,
florin

PS: If you ever find yourself in Windows, putty has an ssh agent as
well.

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From simmonsj at redkeep.com  Fri Aug 27 18:53:41 2010
From: simmonsj at redkeep.com (J.A. Simmons V)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:53:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIELCDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <20100827214801.GB431@weegee.ath.cx>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIELCDCAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik3ohiUjDNe8XkXS30LG5N-vr7m_6zNC8Kb_WC4@mail.gmail.com>

It is all personal preference and lessons learned. In a past life, all the
Navy contractors I interacted with had at least a working knowledge of vi.
Too many times laptops would not make it through customs, lost overboard,
<insert random unforseeable circumstance>, and emacs and vim was not always
a guarentee on the high side. I have yet to run into a *nix box without vi
and too many times I have had to crank out perl scripts using only vi.
I always recommend at least working knowledge.

Simmons

This message was sent from my android phone.

On Aug 27, 2010 5:49 PM, "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Adam Morris
>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 4:48 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 04:03:41PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
>> > In my experience (considerable: with several hundred
>> programmers doing stuff
>> > ranging from supercomputing OS and language stuff, to IT to embedded
and
>> > secure avionics, and so on... ) those who do kinda small single-thread
>> > stuff like I/O intensive IT stuff will prefer vi, while those
>> (eg, MIT PhDs)
>> > who do huge and inter-related stuff will prefer Emacs. Like
>> most else, it's
>> > context-dependent. No surveys, except herding such cats on aerospace
>> > contract projects and programs which have formal reviews,
>> deliverables, and
>> > so on.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chuck
>>
>> If by huge and inter-related you mean projects with 800,000+
>> lines of code, I definitely can attest that I've seen plenty of
>> people use Vi on projects like that (including myself).
>>
>> I'm wondering if a large bit has to do with schooling and where
>> you work. I know that at my school Vi (and for those who
>> couldn't cut it, Pico) was the editor of choice of everyone
>> because our Professors used it. I can understand the use of Vi
>> in the SysAdmin world because Vi is generally guaranteed to be on
>> any Unix system, whereas Emacs isn't, but for programmers I'm
>> betting if you go to a place out of school that is using Vi for
>> programming, you'll probably end up using Vi.
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>
>
> Is your experience from aerospace where there are formal requirements,
> juried reviews, etc, or from a context of individual contributors working
to
> self-imposed or locally imposed requirements? In satellite signal
> processing, secure comm, life-critical avionics, and so on, vi is seldom
> used on "big things". I'm referring to real-time life critical cases, not
> school or IT or academic med. In that aerospace experience base, vi is
much
> less likely, but project teams may select "team tools" based on particular
> tasks, people, and so on.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 21:43:12 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:43:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527570.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827195448.GA30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527570.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7nrkL1EuPPcNLoJB5p9jjg4xtWhDu3BmyeK=Y@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
>
> > I've also used proprietary products that I'm still desparately searching
> > for a good FOSS replacement for, but that is another discussion
> > altogether.
>
> I know about that.  Right now I don't use Mathematica, or have much of a
> need for it, but I don't think anything out there can do what Mathematica
> does, not at that level, so I could still see myself using it or
> recommending it to my son, but I would proceed cautiously, always trying
> to use free software to do the same work whenever the free software could
> do it.
>


There are FOSS software suites out there that aim squarely at Mathematica.
(Octave?  Sage perhaps?)  I think Mathematica is still the BSD of math
packages
though.  And the B in BSD stands for Big, not Berkeley.  See "Liar's
Poker".
(The Book).

-Rob
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 22:02:22 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:02:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik7nrkL1EuPPcNLoJB5p9jjg4xtWhDu3BmyeK=Y@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251857290.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<96C5B43F-87FB-4B6C-A64E-BB39C0DD5D22@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260101240.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100826093437.N29240@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008260940260.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100826101444.O29240@real-time.com>
	<15B4AFD1-C570-4B6F-890D-05DE0C5DE065@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271135360.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827172132.GA3651@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271245100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100827195448.GA30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271527570.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTik7nrkL1EuPPcNLoJB5p9jjg4xtWhDu3BmyeK=Y@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008272154100.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
>>
>>> I've also used proprietary products that I'm still desparately 
>>> searching for a good FOSS replacement for, but that is another 
>>> discussion altogether.
>>
>> I know about that.  Right now I don't use Mathematica, or have much of 
>> a need for it, but I don't think anything out there can do what 
>> Mathematica does, not at that level, so I could still see myself using 
>> it or recommending it to my son, but I would proceed cautiously, always 
>> trying to use free software to do the same work whenever the free 
>> software could do it.
>
> There are FOSS software suites out there that aim squarely at 
> Mathematica. (Octave?  Sage perhaps?)  I think Mathematica is still the 
> BSD of math packages though.  And the B in BSD stands for Big, not 
> Berkeley.  See "Liar's Poker". (The Book).


Octave's target is MATLAB -- they aim to be able to run any MATLAB code in 
Octave, unchanged.  They may not quite achieve it, but close.  They also 
add useful features to Octave that are not found in MATLAB.  I think of 
the functionality of Octave as being more like the functionality of R than 
like Mathematica.

I wasn't familiar with Sage.  Thanks.  How well-developed is it?

One I would have named is Maxima:

http://maxima.sourceforge.net/

I've used it, it works.  It's no Mathematica.  But, like I said, I'll use 
programs like Maxima unless I really need the additional power I'd get 
from Mathematica.  I'm not going to make a habit out of using Mathematica 
and I don't use it at all now.  Funny thing -- I had a copy that I bought 
in 1995 and I threw it in the trash a week or two ago.  It ran on Win 3.1.

Mike


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Aug 28 12:44:03 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:44:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>

Ok, this is a weird one. For me anyway.

One of my servers does this weird thing where the first time you try to 
login to it after a reboot it takes for friggin EVER. You type in a name 
and password and then it sits there for EVER.

This is normally not a huge problem since I use ssh with public keys to 
login around my own network and THAT is instant. However, if I then try to 
sudo, it takes FOREVER.

Nothing in the logs, nothing on console. It's an Ubuntu server, currently 
10.04, but it did this with previous versions too. Several of my other 
machines are also Ubuntu 10.04 server and they do not have this problem.

I've seen these kind of delays to logging in happen when there's slow 
reverse DNS, but not minutes-long delays. Also there's no reverse DNS 
delay to any machines from my network. Also that DEFINITELY shouldn't 
affect logging in on the console.

Anyone have any ideas?


-Yaron

--


From nesius at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 18:08:57 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:08:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Ok, this is a weird one. For me anyway.
>
> One of my servers does this weird thing where the first time you try to
> login to it after a reboot it takes for friggin EVER. You type in a name
> and password and then it sits there for EVER.
>
> This is normally not a huge problem since I use ssh with public keys to
> login around my own network and THAT is instant. However, if I then try to
> sudo, it takes FOREVER.
>
> Nothing in the logs, nothing on console. It's an Ubuntu server, currently
> 10.04, but it did this with previous versions too. Several of my other
> machines are also Ubuntu 10.04 server and they do not have this problem.
>
> I've seen these kind of delays to logging in happen when there's slow
> reverse DNS, but not minutes-long delays. Also there's no reverse DNS
> delay to any machines from my network. Also that DEFINITELY shouldn't
> affect logging in on the console.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
>
I apologize, Yaron.  I thought I had removed all DNS-related
hangs from my root kit's logger.  I'll try to patch that this weekend.
I was wondering about those pauses too - your email finally
made it all click together.

On a serious note, unfortunately it's the first login or first use of
sudo that's causing the issue.  Sudo will refuse to run if stack
tracing is enabled, which is exactly what I'd use to find the
system call that is hanging or waiting for a timeout.  Maybe a
debug version would prove useful?  I suppose you could ssh
into the box and attach a stack tracer to the daemon handling
logins and follow forks...  (I haven't tried this, but it could
work.)

It sounds to me like an I/O call is timing out.

-Rob
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From strayf at freeshell.org  Sat Aug 28 19:59:14 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:59:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4C79B0E2.8030808@freeshell.org>

Yaron wrote:
> Ok, this is a weird one. For me anyway.
> 
> One of my servers does this weird thing where the first time you try to 
> login to it after a reboot it takes for friggin EVER. You type in a name 
> and password and then it sits there for EVER.
> 
> This is normally not a huge problem since I use ssh with public keys to 
> login around my own network and THAT is instant. However, if I then try to 
> sudo, it takes FOREVER.
> 
> Nothing in the logs, nothing on console. It's an Ubuntu server, currently 
> 10.04, but it did this with previous versions too. Several of my other 
> machines are also Ubuntu 10.04 server and they do not have this problem.
> 
> I've seen these kind of delays to logging in happen when there's slow 
> reverse DNS, but not minutes-long delays. Also there's no reverse DNS 
> delay to any machines from my network. Also that DEFINITELY shouldn't 
> affect logging in on the console.

Have you tried running ethereal on the network to see if it's waiting on
a response of some sort?

-Steve




From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Aug 28 20:08:10 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:08:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <4C79B0E2.8030808@freeshell.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<4C79B0E2.8030808@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282007260.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Steve Cayford wrote:

> Have you tried running ethereal on the network to see if it's waiting on
> a response of some sort?

I haven't, but seeing as it does this when you try to login at the console 
itself...


-Yaron

--


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Aug 28 22:03:45 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:03:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Am I the only one without a favorite DE/WM?
Message-ID: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Believe it or not, I don't have a favorite desktop environment or window manager.  I usually use the default (if it has clickable icons on the screen) for the particular distro.  If the default choice doesn't offer clickable icons on the screen, I switch to something else.  When I switch from one distro to another, I prefer to stick with the default options unless I really don't like them.

In Damn Small Linux and Puppy Linux, I used JWM.  I now use antiX Linux version M8.2.  I use ICEWM for the WM (because it's the default) and Rox Pinboard for the DE (for the clickable icons).  When I was using minimal Ubuntu (starting off with a command-line-only installation and gradually adding packages), I used GNOME.  I just found GNOME to be easier to use than XFCE.  Of course, this is no surprise given that most Ubuntu users and developers use GNOME, so of course GNOME seemed to work better.  I'm sure that in distros in which KDE is the default choice, KDE works better than GNOME.  I'm sure that in distros that provide XFCE is the default choice, XFCE is easiest to work with.

I'm not sure why there are so many KDE vs. GNOME flame wars.  I think that it's great that Linux offers so many choices, unlike Windows and OS X.  I'm glad there's so much work going on with LXDE (as well as other lightweight solutions), as it provides an option for those who don't have the RAM for KDE or GNOME or those who do have the RAM but prefer extra speed.

-- 
Jason Hsu, Linux-literate embedded engineer
(952) 715-7661
embedded_engineer at jasonhsu.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Aug 28 23:00:11 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:00:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> I apologize, Yaron.? I thought I had removed all DNS-related
> hangs from my root kit's logger.?

*grins* if you were trying to rootkit any of my machines I'd personally 
have gone with one that's, you know, on the internet like my mail or 
webservers, rather than my media server. I mean if you want my MythTV 
settings you can just ask!

> suppose you could ssh into the box and attach a stack tracer to the 
> daemon handling logins and follow forks...? (I haven't tried this, but 
> it could work.)


The SMALL problem with that is I'd have to ssh in as root which is just... 
ewww. But I'd do it on a temporary basis if it'll help solve this.

The bigger problems are A) What daemon do I attach a stack tracer to, and 
B) What the heck is a stack tracer? (ok I assume that's strace or truss or 
ptrace or whatever the Linux equivalent of those is).


-Yaron

--

From nesius at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 23:19:02 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:19:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:
>
>  suppose you could ssh into the box and attach a stack tracer to the daemon
>> handling logins and follow forks...  (I haven't tried this, but it could
>> work.)
>>
>
> The SMALL problem with that is I'd have to ssh in as root which is just...
> ewww. But I'd do it on a temporary basis if it'll help solve this.
>
> The bigger problems are A) What daemon do I attach a stack tracer to, and
> B) What the heck is a stack tracer? (ok I assume that's strace or truss or
> ptrace or whatever the Linux equivalent of those is).
>

Right - strace or ktrace or truss or... I think it's just strace on linux.

I should know the answer to question A) but don't off the top of my head.
I'll fire up my virtual machine tomorrow and see what I find. BUT - if you
log in via ssh as a non-root user you could run strace against the su
command.   'strace -f -o /tmp/strace.out su - user'.   You should be
prompted for a password and you should be able to see what system call does
the epic-hang.

-Rob
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Aug 28 23:29:40 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:29:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282327400.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> BUT - if you log in via ssh as a non-root user you could run strace 
> against the su command.?? 'strace -f -o /tmp/strace.out su - user'.?

Hey, good idea. Assuming it'll actually do it for su. And lets a user 
strace all the way up (; definitely worth a try.

Sadly that machine is currently building a new RAID and transferring lots 
of files to it at the same time (cause I'm impatient) so I'm reluctant to 
reboot right now (;


-Yaron

--

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Aug 29 00:44:12 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 00:44:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Am I the only one without a favorite DE/WM?
In-Reply-To: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <EBF38CD2-B50B-4F1E-89A0-9FEEC0F15F02@me.com>

I use Nano, but I don't have a favorite. I do my development on other platforms.

On Aug 28, 2010, at 10:03 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:

> Believe it or not, I don't have a favorite desktop environment or window manager.  I usually use the default (if it has clickable icons on the screen) for the particular distro.  If the default choice doesn't offer clickable icons on the screen, I switch to something else.  When I switch from one distro to another, I prefer to stick with the default options unless I really don't like them.
> 
> In Damn Small Linux and Puppy Linux, I used JWM.  I now use antiX Linux version M8.2.  I use ICEWM for the WM (because it's the default) and Rox Pinboard for the DE (for the clickable icons).  When I was using minimal Ubuntu (starting off with a command-line-only installation and gradually adding packages), I used GNOME.  I just found GNOME to be easier to use than XFCE.  Of course, this is no surprise given that most Ubuntu users and developers use GNOME, so of course GNOME seemed to work better.  I'm sure that in distros in which KDE is the default choice, KDE works better than GNOME.  I'm sure that in distros that provide XFCE is the default choice, XFCE is easiest to work with.
> 
> I'm not sure why there are so many KDE vs. GNOME flame wars.  I think that it's great that Linux offers so many choices, unlike Windows and OS X.  I'm glad there's so much work going on with LXDE (as well as other lightweight solutions), as it provides an option for those who don't have the RAM for KDE or GNOME or those who do have the RAM but prefer extra speed.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Hsu, Linux-literate embedded engineer
> (952) 715-7661
> embedded_engineer at jasonhsu.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 02:23:26 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:23:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282327400.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282327400.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimh-KzCbi59+RaDiHeYTSt3286wdd=WFwFJ0s71@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:
>
>  BUT - if you log in via ssh as a non-root user you could run strace
>> against the su command.   'strace -f -o /tmp/strace.out su - user'.
>>
>
> Hey, good idea. Assuming it'll actually do it for su. And lets a user
> strace all the way up (; definitely worth a try.
>
>
Yep - and notice the '-' in the su command.  I would see if you can
reproduce the lag with and without the '-'.

su - user  # invokes a new login shell that completely sources the user's
login files
su user # changes identity without sourcing the target user's login files.

If 'su - <username>' triggers the delay, but 'su <username>' doesn't, the
problem is in the login environment.

-Rob
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From jeruvin at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 21:43:57 2010
From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:43:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Items for Sale
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSyLtJz81o2KUhcJKWkS9oJ+_TVp3TNnuDgx-d@mail.gmail.com>

I have some items that have been keeping a shelf in the basement from
floating away and it's time for me to find them a new home. I live in the
NW Suburbs (inside the loop) and work in Richfield so am willing to meet
someone if needed. These were working the last time I had them powered up
and will most likely need to have the currently forgotten passwords reset on
them.

Images Stored at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeruvin/sets/72157624712768995/


Cisco PIX 501 Series Firewall
Cisco PIX Firewalls book from Osborne
$40 or Best Offer

Linksys WET54GS5
$20 or Best Offer

Cisco 2501 Router (x2)
Cisco Catalyst 1900 Series Router
Cisco DCE/DTE Cable
Twister Pair Transceiver (Little box that give you a Network Connection)
$50 or Best Offer


<http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeruvin/sets/72157624712768995/>--
jason
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Aug 29 21:52:29 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:52:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimh-KzCbi59+RaDiHeYTSt3286wdd=WFwFJ0s71@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282327400.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimh-KzCbi59+RaDiHeYTSt3286wdd=WFwFJ0s71@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008292150520.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> Yep - and notice the '-' in the su command.? I would see if you can
> reproduce the lag with and without the '-'.

Yup. I was able to do that... and I think the culprit was Samba. That's 
where the delays were, anyway, and now that I've nuked Samba off that 
machine it seems not to happen (not that I can reboot yet, but it hasn't 
happened all day).

Looks like login/su were trying to authenticate to samba for some 
reason... didn't bother investigating, I don't really have any need for 
Samba on my network anymore (this was legacy from five years ago) so I 
just kicked it off!


-Yaron

--

From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 22:02:17 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:02:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Login/sudo delay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008292150520.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281239400.4414@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=n4SSSJ7bJ-evsUcdi5N3hM93R0K82cU1Sgjic@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282248220.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTinmjN+rqAMq9WfYGG9-D_-4auWhchPjS9jz4Eof@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008282327400.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTimh-KzCbi59+RaDiHeYTSt3286wdd=WFwFJ0s71@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008292150520.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimvUHv1qK4rW5=jsErRh7kyqcGqLRONO8h+T16O@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:
>
>  Yep - and notice the '-' in the su command.  I would see if you can
>> reproduce the lag with and without the '-'.
>>
>
> Yup. I was able to do that... and I think the culprit was Samba. That's
> where the delays were, anyway, and now that I've nuked Samba off that
> machine it seems not to happen (not that I can reboot yet, but it hasn't
> happened all day).
>
> Looks like login/su were trying to authenticate to samba for some reason...
> didn't bother investigating, I don't really have any need for Samba on my
> network anymore (this was legacy from five years ago) so I just kicked it
> off!
>

Doh!!!!  I almost asked if you had ever messed around with SAMBA and then
stopped using it, as I was thinking that might have left something in a
config file that triggered a timeout.   My wife loves it when this happens,
as she enjoys telling me "you were almost right!" ;-) ;-)

-Rob
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Sun Aug 29 22:09:22 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:09:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Am I the only one without a favorite DE/WM?
In-Reply-To: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C7B20E2.2090507@beer.tclug.org>

^ Nope.

      Jima


From mn-linux.org at cyberians.net  Mon Aug 30 02:23:24 2010
From: mn-linux.org at cyberians.net (mn-linux.org at cyberians.net)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:23:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
Message-ID: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>

Hoping to gain some sage insight from the *nix collective here...

I am not a programmer, yet, so sometimes I see a project and its  
*just* outside my programming skillset.

My problem:  The company I work for has multiple contributors to a  
PowerPoint file which is then displayed on several informational  
monitors.  Since several people are periodically modifying the same  
file, it can occasionally get messed up.  I know, not the greatest  
plan, but there are several corrections that this environment needs,  
and I am a new employee - so I am trying to clean up what I can.

My thought was to break up the contributors to their own directories,  
and use a cron job to merge all the ppt files together.  An  
administrator could kick it off manually.

I found an application that works, but its a desktop .HTA application  
with javascript, and I do not have the skills to convert it to  
command-line...and it just seems like its *just* beyond my skills to  
figure it out alone.

I am hoping someone from this group might be able to show me the light  
on making this work from a command-line.  We have Linux, Unix and  
windows - but typically it runs on XP boxes.  I would like to get it  
working on the existing platform, with insight on converting it to  
*nix in time.

I am not a MS fan, but being one of the lowest rungs on the ladder and  
not exactly a *nix aficionado has me at a disadvantage for linux  
conversions here.

If there is a better solution - I am all ears and relish the wealth of  
knowledge this group has.

The application can be downloaded from:  PowerPoint Join

http://powerpointjoin.googlecode.com/files/pptjoin-0.2.zip

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!




From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Aug 30 02:39:47 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:39:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
In-Reply-To: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
References: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008300237300.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, mn-linux.org at cyberians.net wrote:

> I found an application that works, but its a desktop .HTA application
> with javascript,

Now I'm not sure what an .HTA application is, and I'm really dead-tired, 
but "javascript" to me implies some kinda web interface, in which case you 
could maybe cron up a wget with the correct strings attached (as in, 
for example, wget 
"http://www.yourserver.com/powerpointthing?join=now&directory=dir1&directory=dir2" 
or something)?



-Yaron

--


From random at argle.org  Mon Aug 30 07:32:52 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:32:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org>
	<20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>

On 08/27/2010 02:59 PM, Adam Morris wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 01:36:52PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
>> On 10-08-24 09:15 PM, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>>> Gnome vs. KDE... what about the lighter window managers? I'm a big fan
>>> of Awesome.
>>>
>>> And what about text editors? I use VIM, because it's so much better
>>> than Emacs. Flamewar #3, commence.
>>>
>> Programmers generally prefer emacs for its power and features. These are 
>> being replaced by more advanced IDE's on most platforms, but there are 
>> still places where emacs is best for the job.
> 
> Relgious war aside, can you speak where you're getting this from?  I'm a programmer myself, and I hang out with programmer types, and I would say pretty much all of them use Vi unless they've switched to an IDE or spent their entire lives in the Windows world.  (And many of them, including myself, use plugins to give those IDEs Vi keybindings if such a thing exists for that IDE.)
> 
> -Adam

All of the people whom I've worked with directly that had a preference
for emacs were programmers rather than admins. I know this by
observation and dealing with their requests to have working emacs on
their systems.

While there are obviously programmers with a preference for vi, I would
say that they are likely the exception (as are programmers with a strong
preference for emacs) with the majority of programmers working in an IDE
that provides many of the features emacs has been noted for in a more
accessible format.

I have known of no admins with a strong, sustained preference for emacs.

-- 
Dan


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Mon Aug 30 10:00:45 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:00:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008300237300.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008300237300.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20100830150045.GB28716@weegee.ath.cx>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 02:39:47AM -0500, Yaron wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, mn-linux.org at cyberians.net wrote:
> 
> > I found an application that works, but its a desktop .HTA application
> > with javascript,
> 
> Now I'm not sure what an .HTA application is, and I'm really dead-tired, 
> but "javascript" to me implies some kinda web interface, in which case you 
> could maybe cron up a wget with the correct strings attached (as in, 
> for example, wget 
> "http://www.yourserver.com/powerpointthing?join=now&directory=dir1&directory=dir2" 
> or something)?
> 
> 
> 
> -Yaron

An HTA is a Microsoft "HTML Application".  Its essentially a mess of HTML, Javascript, and VBScript.  If you want to redesign this as a console app you're going to need to rewrite the logic into another language.  HTAs _require_ Internet Explorer to work.

-Adam



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 10:39:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:39:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301026580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010, Daniel Taylor wrote:

> All of the people whom I've worked with directly that had a preference 
> for emacs were programmers rather than admins. I know this by 
> observation and dealing with their requests to have working emacs on 
> their systems.
>
> While there are obviously programmers with a preference for vi, I would 
> say that they are likely the exception (as are programmers with a strong 
> preference for emacs) with the majority of programmers working in an IDE 
> that provides many of the features emacs has been noted for in a more 
> accessible format.
>
> I have known of no admins with a strong, sustained preference for emacs.

That admins would use vi makes a lot of sense to me.  If that were my job, 
I'd know vi.

I hired a programmer a couple of years ago to do some Ruby on Rails (RoR) 
programming.  A lot of the RoR people use Macs and TextMate, but TextMate 
is non-free and it doesn't run on other platforms, so I encouraged him to 
stick with emacs.  He did that and he found all the Ruby and RoR modes and 
other options that made emacs really work for him.  After he stopped 
working for me directly (we still work together), he started using Eclipse 
(free software license but not GPL compatible).  I assume that helps him 
with version management, but I haven't used it myself.  I guess he doesn't 
use emacs with Eclipse, but what editor is used with Eclipse?  How 
different is that editor from emacs or vi?

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Aug 30 10:58:46 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:58:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301026580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301026580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100830155845.GT26890@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:39:33AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>                                                  I guess he doesn't 
> use emacs with Eclipse, but what editor is used with Eclipse?  How 
> different is that editor from emacs or vi?

Eclipse comes with built-in text editors and the keybindings are
customizable. CUA and Emacs mode are available in the standard
distribution, however there are a couple of VI keybindings
implementation floating on the net.  One payware and one free -- but
the free one wasn't very good.  I didn't try the commercial one.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 11:22:29 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:22:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] editors and the so-called holy wars (was "Linux and on
	topic")
In-Reply-To: <20100830155845.GT26890@iris.iucha.org>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301026580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100830155845.GT26890@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301109220.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I just thought I'd point out some of the problems of the "holy wars":

First, it is very rare that one person carefully tests all of the options 
so that he can make a well-informed comparison.  It's a lot of work.  So 
who really knows what is better for which purpose?  If there is an 
argument, there may be some validity on both sides.

Second, I find that many false claims are made in these battles over what 
is best.  I think this is because most proponents of a certain program 
know it very well and they don't know the competitors as well.  So they'll 
say things like ProgramX can do foo, but ProgramY cannot, and they'll be 
wrong.  I've seen this with emacs/vi and with bash/tcsh.

Thirdly, if you want to look at who uses which software to see if the 
software is better suited for certain kinds of jobs, you again run into 
some problems.  It seems like some people here are saying that programmers 
use emacs more than vi and other people are saying that programmers use vi 
more than emacs.  It could be that these differing reports are coming from 
people who worked with different groups of programmers.  What is the 
relationship of the age of the programmer to his choice of editor?  I 
would guess that older programmers would be more likely to use emacs 
instead of vi because when they started programming, emacs was the most 
popular choice (or they switched to it from something a lot worse).  You 
might also find that programmers who worked in certain places, studied in 
certain disciplines, or lived in certain countries have certain software 
preferences.

Mike


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Mon Aug 30 11:27:01 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:27:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and on topic
In-Reply-To: <20100830155845.GT26890@iris.iucha.org>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C7805C4.2090004@argle.org> <20100827195920.GB30861@weegee.ath.cx>
	<4C7BA4F4.7010907@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301026580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100830155845.GT26890@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20100830162658.GC28716@weegee.ath.cx>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:58:46AM -0500, Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:39:33AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >                                                  I guess he doesn't 
> > use emacs with Eclipse, but what editor is used with Eclipse?  How 
> > different is that editor from emacs or vi?
> 
> Eclipse comes with built-in text editors and the keybindings are
> customizable. CUA and Emacs mode are available in the standard
> distribution, however there are a couple of VI keybindings
> implementation floating on the net.  One payware and one free -- but
> the free one wasn't very good.  I didn't try the commercial one.
> 
> Cheers,
> florin
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>       http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163

I use the payware one.  It works pretty good, but not as good as the plugin I have for Visual Studio.  Anymore, if I can't use some kind of vi-keybindings, I'm a very unhappy programmer.

-Adam



From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 11:54:42 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:54:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
In-Reply-To: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
References: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEOBQehBAEL_OoCDAzn1aN5tH0n5z8uLjoX_kc@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:23 AM,  <mn-linux.org at cyberians.net> wrote:

> My problem: ?The company I work for has multiple contributors to a
> PowerPoint file which is then displayed on several informational
> monitors. ?Since several people are periodically modifying the same
> file, it can occasionally get messed up.

> I am hoping someone from this group might be able to show me the light
> on making this work from a command-line. ?We have Linux, Unix and
> windows - but typically it runs on XP boxes. ?I would like to get it
> working on the existing platform, with insight on converting it to
> *nix in time.

Have you thought about source control?  I know it's not really
"source" per say but a CVS repo and a good CVS client could go a long
way here.  Might be more work than it's worth, given it's just one
file, but I find subversion to be quite handy for this kind of stuff.

Sharepoint uses decent source control, if you're a Microsoft shop, but
since you're using linux in all of this that may not be your best
answer.

Brian


From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 13:36:50 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:36:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEOBQehBAEL_OoCDAzn1aN5tH0n5z8uLjoX_kc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
	<AANLkTimEOBQehBAEL_OoCDAzn1aN5tH0n5z8uLjoX_kc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxcFvCFpbuMYEKd50Np-tR_7VfAvS_ZMUAkynt@mail.gmail.com>

For dealing with Windows and Microsoft Office without getting into
full on programming VBScript or Windows PowerShell scripts are most
likely your best bets.

A quick Google search turned up:
http://birbilis.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!2335BBEF59B92C54!1457.entry?wa=wsignin1.0&sa=139160928

You can turn up an example for doing just about anything you can think
of with VBScript. PowerShell is Microsoft's newer scriping technology
but there are no shortage of examples out there. If you were going to
pick one to learn I'd go with PowerShell. That seems to be the future
of scripting on Windows.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 15:35:05 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:35:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT?: Help converting HTA app to command-line?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEOBQehBAEL_OoCDAzn1aN5tH0n5z8uLjoX_kc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100830012324.xuzyubmeoocoo4s4@login.hostmonster.com>
	<AANLkTimEOBQehBAEL_OoCDAzn1aN5tH0n5z8uLjoX_kc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008301527020.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:23 AM,  <mn-linux.org at cyberians.net> wrote:

> My problem: ?The company I work for has multiple contributors to a 
> PowerPoint file which is then displayed on several informational 
> monitors. ?Since several people are periodically modifying the same 
> file, it can occasionally get messed up.

The thing I'm not clear on is how they are accessing the file.  Can you 
use file locking?  If not, is one person making edits that might be 
deleted when the file is overwritten by the next user?  Are different 
people editing the same slide within the file?

If there is one user per slide, I would divide the file up so that there 
is one slide per file.  When I wanted to display it, I'd use something 
that converts each slide to PDF, then I'd aggregate the PDF files, and I'd 
use a PDF viewer to display the slideshow instead of using PowerPoint.

I'd also dump microsoft altogether and use OpenOffice because you're going 
to find it a little easier for converting to PDF, but this might not fly 
with the PowerPoint users in your workplace.

I can show you some software I've been working with for automating file 
conversion.  You will want these:

unoconv -- convert .ppt to .pdf on the fly
pdftk -- PDF toolkit, used to concatenate PDF files into one big file

Mike

From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 31 06:54:10 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 06:54:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Am I the only one without a favorite DE/WM?
In-Reply-To: <4C7B20E2.2090507@beer.tclug.org>
References: <20100828220345.433ae376.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4C7B20E2.2090507@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <4C7CED62.6030203@argle.org>

For the longest time my favorite "WM" was Alt-FX on the console ;)
Now I don't care so much as long as it stays out of my way for the most
part.

On 08/29/2010 10:09 PM, Jima wrote:
> ^ Nope.
> 
>       Jima
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Tue Aug 31 09:35:57 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:35:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

I'm wondering what virus scanners are available and which are preferred. I'd also like to stick with FOSS if possible but I'm not sure if they're able to keep up with the ever changing virus landscape.  I'm interested in scanning user uploaded content for MS viruses so they aren't being distributed, in my 15 years of linux experience I've never ran any kind of virus scanner on a Linux server.

I'm also thinking I'm not so concerned about constant scanning, maybe a midnight daily or weekly scan will be enough since we've never had any problems in the past, just some concern has been raised by the fact that we're not checking anything ever.

-Scott
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From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 31 09:43:39 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:43:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>

I use clamav on the free side, and Sophos when I need a commercial
product (supports Linux, Mac, and Windows).

I'd love to hear about other AV programs that work on Linux, too.

On 08/31/2010 09:35 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm wondering what virus scanners are available and which are preferred.
> I'd also like to stick with FOSS if possible but I'm not sure if they're
> able to keep up with the ever changing virus landscape.  I'm interested
> in scanning user uploaded content for MS viruses so they aren't being
> distributed, in my 15 years of linux experience I've never ran any kind
> of virus scanner on a Linux server.
> 
> I'm also thinking I'm not so concerned about constant scanning, maybe a
> midnight daily or weekly scan will be enough since we've never had any
> problems in the past, just some concern has been raised by the fact that
> we're not checking anything ever.
> 
> -Scott
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Aug 31 10:07:18 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:07:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID/mdadm
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>

Anyone here use software RAID and use mdadm to expand an array?

I used to have a RAID0 array with two disks, and tried to grow it... only 
to find you can't add devices to a RAID0 (no idea why, it seems like it'd 
be the easiest!) Anyway, I had to use the two additional disks to make a 
RAID5 array (by splitting them into two partitions each), copy all the 
data to THAT one and then grow it using the original RAID devices.

Yeah, bit of a mess, and I eventually got the RAID5 built, let that run 
for a bit to make sure it actually works, then nuked the old RAID0, split 
one of the drives into partitions the same size I'm using for the RAID5 
volumes, and added them to the current array.

That all went well, except when I tried to resize the filesystem, 
resize2fs says it's already at maximum.

I do notice from /proc/mdstat that the array is "reshaping" (and it's 
going to take forEVER) and I'm wondering if resize2fs isn't supposed to 
work until that's done.

If that's NOT the case and it's supposed to be able to resize the 
filesystem as soon as I've grown the array, then either somethng's wrong 
or I've missed something. I've followed the Linux RAID Wiki's instructions 
and have no indication of either of those though.

Anyone?



-Yaron

--


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Aug 31 10:07:44 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:07:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
In-Reply-To: <4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>
Message-ID: <DF957EB2C7894B9D9C83161E42F6EE07@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Avast and Vexira have linux support as well as Clam.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:44 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners

I use clamav on the free side, and Sophos when I need a commercial
product (supports Linux, Mac, and Windows).

I'd love to hear about other AV programs that work on Linux, too.

On 08/31/2010 09:35 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm wondering what virus scanners are available and which are preferred.
> I'd also like to stick with FOSS if possible but I'm not sure if they're
> able to keep up with the ever changing virus landscape.  I'm interested
> in scanning user uploaded content for MS viruses so they aren't being
> distributed, in my 15 years of linux experience I've never ran any kind
> of virus scanner on a Linux server.
> 
> I'm also thinking I'm not so concerned about constant scanning, maybe a
> midnight daily or weekly scan will be enough since we've never had any
> problems in the past, just some concern has been raised by the fact that
> we're not checking anything ever.
> 
> -Scott
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 31 10:20:36 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:20:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
Message-ID: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>

For those who do not know.

Before there was vi there were ed (the line editor) and sed (the stream
editor).

In the days of paper terminals ed was the ultimate interactive text
editor, you could (in theory) write your thesis using it. I'm sure
someone did, because college students are That Way (that, and you could
save a backup copy and pay someone with a nice typewriter and decent
typing speed to make it pretty for you if you had more money than most
college students).

sed was (and perhaps still is) the ultimate non-interactive text editor.
You feed it a script (on the command line or in a file), and a stream or
file of text and it outputs the text as modified by the script. There
are those who would swear by awk or even perl for this menial task, but
sed does many things gracefully and efficiently with much less of a load
on your poor beleaguered CPU and memory.

And finally, in the fullness of time and the wide deployment of glass
tty's to computer labs, we gained access to vi. My first response to it
was "cool! It runs just like ed but I get to see 23 lines at a time!
Ooooooh!", then as I used it I discovered that it had it's own command
set that gave capabilities that just didn't make sense in ed or sed.

ed lives on, though to my knowledge nobody uses it outside of vi colon mode.

sed is in moderately wide use in batch processing applications still,
especially for minor data format conversions or weird command line scripts.

vi (especially as vim) is a living project, competitive with any other
editor, and nearly an IDE in it's own right when invoked as gvim.

Why did I go to all this trouble?

Since ed and sed still live in vi as part of colon mode, learning their
command set can greatly enhance what you can do with vi, as well as
giving you tools to use in XTreme Sysadmin! situations.

That, and I was just really in the mood to write this morning...

-- 
Dan


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 10:21:48 2010
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:21:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID/mdadm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>

Did you resize your partition before trying to resize the filesystem with
resize2fs?

-Andy

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Anyone here use software RAID and use mdadm to expand an array?
>
> I used to have a RAID0 array with two disks, and tried to grow it... only
> to find you can't add devices to a RAID0 (no idea why, it seems like it'd
> be the easiest!) Anyway, I had to use the two additional disks to make a
> RAID5 array (by splitting them into two partitions each), copy all the
> data to THAT one and then grow it using the original RAID devices.
>
> Yeah, bit of a mess, and I eventually got the RAID5 built, let that run
> for a bit to make sure it actually works, then nuked the old RAID0, split
> one of the drives into partitions the same size I'm using for the RAID5
> volumes, and added them to the current array.
>
> That all went well, except when I tried to resize the filesystem,
> resize2fs says it's already at maximum.
>
> I do notice from /proc/mdstat that the array is "reshaping" (and it's
> going to take forEVER) and I'm wondering if resize2fs isn't supposed to
> work until that's done.
>
> If that's NOT the case and it's supposed to be able to resize the
> filesystem as soon as I've grown the array, then either somethng's wrong
> or I've missed something. I've followed the Linux RAID Wiki's instructions
> and have no indication of either of those though.
>
> Anyone?
>
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Aug 31 10:30:52 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:30:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID/mdadm
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311028270.2311@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Andy Schmid wrote:

> Did you resize your partition before trying to resize the filesystem with
> resize2fs?

Well, I assumed growing the array is what does that part. None of the 
instructions online have any fdisk/parted parts, and I never used 
fdisk/parted/anything to CREATE the partition on the array in the first 
place.

I can try that but I'm very reluctant to without ever seeing any documents 
saying to do it (:


-Yaron

--


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Aug 31 10:39:58 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:39:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID/mdadm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311028270.2311@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311028270.2311@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311039240.2311@localhost.localdomain>

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Andy Schmid wrote:

>> Did you resize your partition before trying to resize the filesystem with
>> resize2fs?

Upon further investication, the RAID filesystem doesn't actually have any 
partitions, just a filesystem.


-Yaron

--


From dworden at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 10:46:44 2010
From: dworden at gmail.com (David Worden)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:46:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikOokFuR6QewXFWZy6h48d4i6rOkOq81GC+=WDz@mail.gmail.com>

Usual lurk mode -> off

On many *nix systems, using something like "ls -li" (the "i" displays the
inode number in the filesystem) will show you that "vi" and "ed" are
actually the same binary program -- just hard-linked together. The name used
to invoke it (argv[0]) determines whether it goes into "vi" mode or "ed"
mode.

I heard a rumor once -- that Bill Joy had a whole bunch of vi improvements
in the hopper, but lost those due to a disk crash with no backup.

Additional "Data Nugget":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi

Usual lurk mode -> on

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

> For those who do not know.
>
> Before there was vi there were ed (the line editor) and sed (the stream
> editor).
>
> In the days of paper terminals ed was the ultimate interactive text
> editor, you could (in theory) write your thesis using it. I'm sure
> someone did, because college students are That Way (that, and you could
> save a backup copy and pay someone with a nice typewriter and decent
> typing speed to make it pretty for you if you had more money than most
> college students).
>
> sed was (and perhaps still is) the ultimate non-interactive text editor.
> You feed it a script (on the command line or in a file), and a stream or
> file of text and it outputs the text as modified by the script. There
> are those who would swear by awk or even perl for this menial task, but
> sed does many things gracefully and efficiently with much less of a load
> on your poor beleaguered CPU and memory.
>
> And finally, in the fullness of time and the wide deployment of glass
> tty's to computer labs, we gained access to vi. My first response to it
> was "cool! It runs just like ed but I get to see 23 lines at a time!
> Ooooooh!", then as I used it I discovered that it had it's own command
> set that gave capabilities that just didn't make sense in ed or sed.
>
> ed lives on, though to my knowledge nobody uses it outside of vi colon
> mode.
>
> sed is in moderately wide use in batch processing applications still,
> especially for minor data format conversions or weird command line scripts.
>
> vi (especially as vim) is a living project, competitive with any other
> editor, and nearly an IDE in it's own right when invoked as gvim.
>
> Why did I go to all this trouble?
>
> Since ed and sed still live in vi as part of colon mode, learning their
> command set can greatly enhance what you can do with vi, as well as
> giving you tools to use in XTreme Sysadmin! situations.
>
> That, and I was just really in the mood to write this morning...
>
> --
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 11:00:19 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:00:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimYJXBxn+uHT5Zw5H75JkG-LEnVq=5kUmFu_suz@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Daniel Taylor <random at argle.org> wrote:

> For those who do not know.
>
> Before there was vi there were ed (the line editor) and sed (the stream
> editor).
>
> In the days of paper terminals ed was the ultimate interactive text
> editor, you could (in theory) write your thesis using it. I'm sure
> someone did, because college students are That Way (that, and you could
> save a backup copy and pay someone with a nice typewriter and decent
> typing speed to make it pretty for you if you had more money than most
> college students).<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>


My first experience with ed was watching my friends code their realms on LPC
based MUDS.  I remember cringing in horror at the thought of having to forgo
the luxury of vi to code their realms. :)

Now I'm using Aptana Studio 3 (a nice, free, rails-savvy IDE) to develop in
as I work my way through my Rails book.  The "little things" the built-in
editor does are much appreciated.  Smart indenting - automatic insertion of
matching brackets and closing tags when necessary.  If I line-break after
opening a brace the editor adds an extra line-break to put the closing brace
on its own line at the proper indent level.  If I create a new file it has
the correct boilerplate templated in...  When I begin open up a new tag a
pop-up list of all tags matching the prefix is presented if I want, or I can
ignore it and keep typing.  It's all stuff I could do myself, but over time
it's saving me a lot of key strokes.  Most non-vi text editors induce
hiccups for me, but using this editor has been a seamless transition.
Pretty impressive.

-Rob
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From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Aug 31 11:07:05 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:07:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>;
	from random@argle.org on Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:20:36AM -0500
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
Message-ID: <20100831110705.E18901@real-time.com>

On 08/31 10:20 , Daniel Taylor wrote:
> ed lives on, though to my knowledge nobody uses it outside of vi colon mode.

I do remember some years ago, when Linux on S/390 mainframes was a new and
buzzworthy thing, reading the mailing list for it and seeing a greybeard
recount solving a problem with a broken terminal emulation (S/390s not
having a real 'console', and especially not having one that acted like
anything more than a teletype) wherein he said something like 'I remembered
enough of ed from the days before vi to edit the file and fix the problem'. 

I think I might even have done the same thing or something similar to solve
the same problem once, when I was playing with Linux for the S/390 using the
Hercules emulator.

Every once in a while, knowing how to solve a problem the hard way comes in
handy.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Aug 31 11:17:03 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:17:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <20100831110705.E18901@real-time.com>
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org> <20100831110705.E18901@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20100831161703.GV26890@iris.iucha.org>

From http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EdIsTheStandardTextEditor:

  "Ed is the standard text editor."

  Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:

  golem> ed

  ?
  help
  ?
  ?
  ?
  quit
  ?
  exit
  ?
  bye
  ?
  hello? 
  ?
  eat flaming death
  ?
  ^C
  ?
  ^C
  ?
  ^D
  ?

  ---
  Note the consistent user interface and error reportage.  Ed is
  generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
  the novice with verbosity.

ROFLMAO,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Aug 31 11:31:35 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:31:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <20100831161703.GV26890@iris.iucha.org>;
	from florin@iucha.net on Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:17:03AM -0500
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org> <20100831110705.E18901@real-time.com>
	<20100831161703.GV26890@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20100831113135.F18901@real-time.com>

On 08/31 11:17 , Florin Iucha wrote:
>   Note the consistent user interface and error reportage.  Ed is
>   generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm
>   the novice with verbosity.

My favorite quote about ed goes something like "It's sort of like driving a
car with only one thing on the dashboard, a blue lighted '?' and when it
goes on the experienced user is expected to just know what's wrong."

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Tue Aug 31 11:42:28 2010
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:42:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org> <20100831110705.E18901@real-time.com>
	<20100831161703.GV26890@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100831113135.F18901@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <0000143881@mail.penguinpackets.com>

For extra torture, try EDLIN for MS-DOS (or DRDOS / IBM-DOS / FREEDOS, or
even DOSEMU). Ed done even more poorly.  

Kelly  

?
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From mfunger at arbita.net  Tue Aug 31 11:20:38 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew Unger)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:20:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
In-Reply-To: <DF957EB2C7894B9D9C83161E42F6EE07@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>
	<DF957EB2C7894B9D9C83161E42F6EE07@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=x3=MSMYgpdMdomW9r2qiDpmRu9wuEuL6XcdHy@mail.gmail.com>

I second a vote for Clam. I use it on both my Debian and Win boxen.

Matt

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> Avast and Vexira have linux support as well as Clam.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Taylor
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:44 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
>
> I use clamav on the free side, and Sophos when I need a commercial
> product (supports Linux, Mac, and Windows).
>
> I'd love to hear about other AV programs that work on Linux, too.
>
> On 08/31/2010 09:35 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm wondering what virus scanners are available and which are preferred.
> > I'd also like to stick with FOSS if possible but I'm not sure if they're
> > able to keep up with the ever changing virus landscape.  I'm interested
> > in scanning user uploaded content for MS viruses so they aren't being
> > distributed, in my 15 years of linux experience I've never ran any kind
> > of virus scanner on a Linux server.
> >
> > I'm also thinking I'm not so concerned about constant scanning, maybe a
> > midnight daily or weekly scan will be enough since we've never had any
> > problems in the past, just some concern has been raised by the fact that
> > we're not checking anything ever.
> >
> > -Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 15:14:55 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:14:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311504450.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Daniel Taylor wrote:

> Before there was vi there were ed (the line editor) and sed (the stream 
> editor).
>
> In the days of paper terminals ed was the ultimate interactive text 
> editor, you could (in theory) write your thesis using it.

I remember the paper terminals at WPI in 1976.  There was a program, 
possibly ed, that allowed us to type a line and then see what we had 
typed.  Or maybe we would type, but when we used backspace we wouldn't 
really see the effect (was that when we saw ^H^H on the screen?) but we 
could see the line later to check that it was correct.  Maybe that was ed.

Anyway, I hadn't thought of it before, but as you point out, when you're 
using that kind of interface, you can't use a normal modern-day editor. 
So that's why they call them "screen editors".

So that was all we had when I was a freshman -- paper terminals that you 
couldn't get on unless you were willing to stay up all night.  Now my son 
is a freshman and he has a laptop with 4GB RAM hooked up to a 25" 1080p 
HDTV.  That laptop probably has much more than 100 times the total 
computing power at WPI in 1976.  I think this has gone better than I 
expected, but I can't really remember what I expected.  I do remember 
people talking about computer-brain hook-ups so that you would control a 
computer with your "mind."  I think we were supposed to have that about 10 
years ago.  AI didn't go as well as they thought it would.


> sed was (and perhaps still is) the ultimate non-interactive text editor.

I used to use it, but then started using perl for all the functions 
previously handled for me by sed.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 16:23:10 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:23:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=x3=MSMYgpdMdomW9r2qiDpmRu9wuEuL6XcdHy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>
	<DF957EB2C7894B9D9C83161E42F6EE07@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<AANLkTi=x3=MSMYgpdMdomW9r2qiDpmRu9wuEuL6XcdHy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311620580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Matthew Unger wrote:

> I second a vote for Clam. I use it on both my Debian and Win boxen.


Good to know.  In Synaptic on Ubuntu it says something to the effect that 
it is mainly useful for scanning email attachments.  Can it also be used 
to scan a directory tree?  For example, I would like to be able to attach 
a USB device to my Ubuntu box and scan it for infected files.  Can I do 
that with ClamAV?

Mike


From josh at tcbug.org  Tue Aug 31 18:15:57 2010
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:15:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] A bit of vi history.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311504450.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4C7D1DC4.3080807@argle.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311504450.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <201008311816.05385.josh@tcbug.org>

On Tuesday 31 August 2010 15:14:55 Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> > Before there was vi there were ed (the line editor) and sed (the stream
> > editor).
> > 
> > In the days of paper terminals ed was the ultimate interactive text
> > editor, you could (in theory) write your thesis using it.
> 
> I remember the paper terminals at WPI in 1976.  There was a program,
> possibly ed, that allowed us to type a line and then see what we had
> typed.  Or maybe we would type, but when we used backspace we wouldn't
> really see the effect (was that when we saw ^H^H on the screen?) but we
> could see the line later to check that it was correct.  Maybe that was ed.
> 
> Anyway, I hadn't thought of it before, but as you point out, when you're
> using that kind of interface, you can't use a normal modern-day editor.
> So that's why they call them "screen editors".
> 
> So that was all we had when I was a freshman -- paper terminals that you
> couldn't get on unless you were willing to stay up all night.  Now my son
> is a freshman and he has a laptop with 4GB RAM hooked up to a 25" 1080p
> HDTV.  That laptop probably has much more than 100 times the total
> computing power at WPI in 1976.  I think this has gone better than I
> expected, but I can't really remember what I expected.  I do remember
> people talking about computer-brain hook-ups so that you would control a
> computer with your "mind."  I think we were supposed to have that about 10
> years ago.  AI didn't go as well as they thought it would.
> 
> > sed was (and perhaps still is) the ultimate non-interactive text editor.
> 
> I used to use it, but then started using perl for all the functions
> previously handled for me by sed.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

I get to do a lot of fun things for work. iXsystems in the phoenix from the 
ashes of BSDi, which was spun off from Berkeley after the research project 
involving UNIX came to a close.

We have a fairly good association with Berkeley, BSD UNIX, and many of the 
people who were involved in it way back when.

I don't rub shoulders with Bill Joy, but I do administrate billjoy.com (which 
is parked at the moment), and do occasionally get to run into the likes of 
Paul Vixie (his son worked at our office as an intern).

Occasionally people ask me why UNIX commands are so terse.  The original UNIX 
machines had 110 bps teletypes for an interface, and it didn't take much 
typing ability to get ahead of them.  vi was a luxury that demanded a glass 
tty, as well as "high speed" links, that ran at a blazing 300 bps.

My how times have changed (for the better)
   
-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel
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From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 31 18:30:15 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:30:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Virus Scanners
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311620580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E05E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>	<4C7D151B.5070406@argle.org>	<DF957EB2C7894B9D9C83161E42F6EE07@usicorp.usinternet.com>	<AANLkTi=x3=MSMYgpdMdomW9r2qiDpmRu9wuEuL6XcdHy@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008311620580.23768@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C7D9087.3020307@argle.org>

On 10-08-31 04:23 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Matthew Unger wrote:
>
>> I second a vote for Clam. I use it on both my Debian and Win boxen.
>
>
> Good to know.  In Synaptic on Ubuntu it says something to the effect that
> it is mainly useful for scanning email attachments.  Can it also be used
> to scan a directory tree?  For example, I would like to be able to attach
> a USB device to my Ubuntu box and scan it for infected files.  Can I do
> that with ClamAV?
>
Yes.
Basic clamav can be run from the command line to scan a specific 
directory, and from the Ubuntu/Debian clamav-daemon package:


This package contains the daemon and its command line interface,
featuring:
  - fast, multi-threaded daemon;
  - easy integration with MTA's;
  - support for on-access scanning;
  - remote scanning;
  - able to be run supervised by daemon.

-- 
Dan


From random at argle.org  Tue Aug 31 18:53:45 2010
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
References: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <4C7D9609.3000806@argle.org>

Yeah, I asked specifically about infrastructure wireless for cheaper 
deployment to remote areas, and Sen. Klobuchar just lumped it in with 
the rest of the questions "about wireless" which the guy who answered it 
obviously took for end-user wireless.

Bleh. She's smart, but she obviously needs better tech advisors (or 
needed to let her tech advisor filter the questions instead of doing so 
herself...)

-- 
Dan


From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Aug 31 20:00:58 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:00:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Genachowski meeting thought
In-Reply-To: <4C7D9609.3000806@argle.org>
References: <4C743EF7.10006@meltel.net> <4C7D9609.3000806@argle.org>
Message-ID: <4C7DA5CA.4080404@meltel.net>

Daniel Taylor wrote:
> Yeah, I asked specifically about infrastructure wireless for cheaper 
> deployment to remote areas, and Sen. Klobuchar just lumped it in with 
> the rest of the questions "about wireless" which the guy who answered it 
> obviously took for end-user wireless.
>
> Bleh. She's smart, but she obviously needs better tech advisors (or 
> needed to let her tech advisor filter the questions instead of doing so 
> herself...)
>
>   
Dan:  Glad you asked.  They need to be asked questions they know the 
answer to.  Next stop is workaround for Wimax.  I know from personal 
experience, I can build a coat hanger antenna that will receive line of 
site digital signals from tv up to 80 miles away.  The corporations have 
locked up Wimax technology pretty tight.  Eben Moglen has made the call 
to package DNS in a box.  What's missing is the device that 
receives/transmits white spaces frequencies.  At that point, by my 
reckoning, we blow the corporations out of the water with pirate 
networks statewide.  I think we're close to the next big breakthrough in 
saving our Internet.  I can't help but hope there's a way to have Wimax 
look a lot like an Asterisk PBX setup.  That would be cool.
Tom



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Aug 31 21:15:25 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:15:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID/mdadm
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008310942420.2311@localhost.localdomain>
	<AANLkTi=jBT3czTXj4P0a24jc+mPEOXUr9t6apT8ppybL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008312113560.7440@localhost.localdomain>


In case anyone is interested, once the array was done reshaping, resize2fs 
started working. It's resizing the thing right now... while it's mounted. 
Didn't even WARN me about it. Seems to be working fine but is super-super 
slow. I /really/ wish I'd remembered to unmount it first but there is NO 
WAY I am messing with this thing while it's running...

> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>       Anyone here use software RAID and use mdadm to expand an array?
>
>       I used to have a RAID0 array with two disks, and tried to grow
>       it... only
>       to find you can't add devices to a RAID0 (no idea why, it seems
>       like it'd
>       be the easiest!) Anyway, I had to use the two additional disks
>       to make a
>       RAID5 array (by splitting them into two partitions each), copy
>       all the
>       data to THAT one and then grow it using the original RAID
>       devices.
>
>       Yeah, bit of a mess, and I eventually got the RAID5 built, let
>       that run
>       for a bit to make sure it actually works, then nuked the old
>       RAID0, split
>       one of the drives into partitions the same size I'm using for
>       the RAID5
>       volumes, and added them to the current array.
>
>       That all went well, except when I tried to resize the
>       filesystem,
>       resize2fs says it's already at maximum.
>
>       I do notice from /proc/mdstat that the array is "reshaping" (and
>       it's
>       going to take forEVER) and I'm wondering if resize2fs isn't
>       supposed to
>       work until that's done.
>
>       If that's NOT the case and it's supposed to be able to resize
>       the
>       filesystem as soon as I've grown the array, then either
>       somethng's wrong
>       or I've missed something. I've followed the Linux RAID Wiki's
>       instructions
>       and have no indication of either of those though.
>
>       Anyone?
> 
> 
>
>       -Yaron
>
>       --
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
>


-Yaron

--


From aba.elhaddi at comcast.net  Sun Aug 29 17:45:48 2010
From: aba.elhaddi at comcast.net (A. A. El haddi)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:45:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] systems engineer position at pillar data
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <503998433-1282701757-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-636593205-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=sUhDfbpbJfjQxW5NELjUASbesg5KsAGNXfCEh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin=wNmO+t8T82cboL0C3YhYzE9jtYhEa4ZHEN_1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251307580.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTikn5zBQZjUPCDfi0hci4W3wzNwDO8a_0TacjUEx@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251401370.12880@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1283121948.11691.5.camel@ubuntu>

Sorry I sent this earlier but it bounced back. Hope it was not delivered
twice.
thanks
-----

Hello,

A friend of mine at Pillar Data  is looking for a Systems Engineer. 
He is looking for a highly technical person with experience in Storage
Solutions (SAN, NAS, etc). Strong LINUX/Solaris/Windows Sys admin
experience. The position is a pre-sales position.
Please contact him and he will tell you more.

Please call or email Dick at 952-938-5007, dlandis at pillardata.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------
A. A. El Haddi, 
EnduraData Inc,
http://www.enduradata.com
Cross Platform Data Replication, Data Distribution and Archival
for Linux, Mac, windows, Solaris, OpenBSD,...