From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Jan 3 21:39:05 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:39:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701040339.l043d5R12671@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free computer books All books are in good condition. Some are a bit old. I'll include ISBN so you can get the details. Also makes good kindling. Java in a Nutshell, 1-56592-262-X Java 2 Complete, 0-7821-2468-2 Tcl and the Tk Toolkit, 0-201-63337-X Learning Perl, 1-56592-284-0 The C++ Programming Language, 0-201-53992-6 Javascript, the Definitive Guide, 1-56592-392-8 Seller Email address: johntrammell at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From jsievert at gmail.com Fri Jan 5 16:07:00 2007 From: jsievert at gmail.com (Jason Sievert) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:07:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Rack screws and clip nuts Message-ID: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I am looking trying to find a local supplier for some rack hardware. Something like this from APC. http://apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AR8100&tab=features Any ideas? Thanks, Jason Sievert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070105/d5eeb848/attachment.htm From cdf123 at cdf123.net Fri Jan 5 15:46:19 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:46:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] vim expert needed - not working Message-ID: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net> Hi all, I've got a bunch of external macros and commands that I want to use my function keys for in vim (e.g. cvs commands). And I'd like to map similar commands together, but if I map them all, I'm going to be running out of function keys pretty quick. So I'm trying to map commands like this: "load functions source ~/bin/cdf.vim :map :CVSDiff :map :CdfCvsDiffPrevious :map :CdfCvsUpdateReport :map :CVSCommit etc... But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want. If I open vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "" I get "", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~". Does anyone here know what's going on? I'm running gentoo, fluxbox, and Eterm, all with mostly default settings, so I don't think they would be messing with any key mappings or anything, xev shows everything working ok. Any help would be great. Thanks all, Chris Frederick From tclug-list at scotjenkins.com Fri Jan 5 17:43:38 2007 From: tclug-list at scotjenkins.com (Scot Jenkins) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 17:43:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] vim expert needed - not working In-Reply-To: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net> References: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net> Message-ID: <1168040618.459ee2aa70542@webmail.pajunas.net> Quoting Chris Frederick : > I've got a bunch of external macros and commands that I want to use my > function keys for in vim (e.g. cvs commands). And I'd like to map > similar commands together, but if I map them all, I'm going to be > running out of function keys pretty quick. So I'm trying to map > commands like this: > > "load functions > source ~/bin/cdf.vim > :map :CVSDiff > :map :CdfCvsDiffPrevious > :map :CdfCvsUpdateReport > :map :CVSCommit > etc... > > But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want. If I open > vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "" I get > "", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~". In vi, in input mode, type CTRL+V then hit the key combination you want. CTRL+V will quote the next char. Scot From cdf123 at cdf123.net Fri Jan 5 18:05:07 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:05:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Update: vim expert needed - not working In-Reply-To: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net> References: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net> Message-ID: <459EE7B3.2030200@cdf123.net> Chris Frederick wrote: > > > But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want. If I open > vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "" I get > "", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~". > > Does anyone here know what's going on? I'm running gentoo, fluxbox, and > Eterm, all with mostly default settings, so I don't think they would > be messing with any key mappings or anything, xev shows everything > working ok. Any help would be great. > > Why is it that when you spend hours looking for something and ask for help, you find it yourself in an hour or so? I tried different terminals and found that xterm works perfectly. So it must be a problem with eterm, and sure enough: http://www.eterm.org/docs/view.php?doc=ref Looks like eterm (and several others btw) are mapping to . This seems kind of odd. This makes =, and =. So instead of 24 function key combinations, I'm cut down to 20. I'm not seeing anything obvious available to change this "feature" (commenting out the code in term.c and recompiling didn't do what I want), but I'm still looking. For now though ':help :map' to the rescue. I've remapped the keys to the key codes being given by eterm. Just added this to my .vimrc: set =[25~ set =[26~ set = set =[29~ set =[31~ set =[32~ set =[33~ set =[34~ set =[23$ set =[24$ "F15 is apparently the help key, so undo it's mapping so I can use it. map map! If anyone knows a quick and easy way to make eterm/rxvt/etc.. work more like xterm for key bindings, please let me know. Something tells me I cant just swap out term.c and expect everything to work, but I'll keep digging. Thanks again for any help. Chris Frederick From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com Fri Jan 5 18:52:21 2007 From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:52:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Rack screws and clip nuts In-Reply-To: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.co m> References: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20070105184550.035d5800@pop.mm.com> Three suppliers come to mind: Ace Hardware Home Depot Menard's Rack screws are regular machine screws; nothing special about them. Nylon locking hex nuts, lock washers. &c are also standard fare. I forget the thread pitch, but if you bring one of your rack screws to your neighborhood hardware store, they'll be able to figure it out in a few seconds. Home Depot has a thread gage where you can find the right match yourself. At 04:07 PM 1/5/07, Jason Sievert wrote: >Hello all, I am looking trying to find a local supplier for some >rack hardware. Something like this from APC. >http://apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AR8100&tab=features > > >Any ideas? From dniesen at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 18:38:49 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:38:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> I have a Fedora Core 4 server that is hosting a number of web sites. It seems every week or so that a large number of GB go missing. What I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show only 7.4 GB used. It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears. The partition in question is xfs with usrquota enabled. Has anyone seen this behavior before? -- Donovan Niesen From justin.kremer at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 21:25:03 2007 From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:25:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> On 1/7/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > What > I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show > only 7.4 GB used. It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a > weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears. I remember seeing a discussion about this a while back. http://mailman.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2004-May.txt Search for "where is my disk space" on that page. I'm guessing that MySQL is keeping "deleted" files open, similar to what Tom was seeing with his app, and that's why restarting MySQL frees up the space. - Justin From dniesen at gmail.com Sun Jan 7 21:41:28 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:41:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df In-Reply-To: <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> On 1/7/07, Justin Kremer wrote: > On 1/7/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > What > > I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show > > only 7.4 GB used. It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a > > weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears. > > I remember seeing a discussion about this a while back. > http://mailman.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2004-May.txt > Search for "where is my disk space" on that page. I'm guessing that > MySQL is keeping "deleted" files open, similar to what Tom was seeing > with his app, and that's why restarting MySQL frees up the space. > - Justin > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > This must be it. I have a script that updates the db on machine every day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out. Thanks guys! -- Donovan Niesen From thecubic at thecubic.net Sun Jan 7 22:00:48 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:00:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> "lsof +L1" should tell you the file(s) in question and if they are regular files, the size also. -Dave On Sunday 07 January 2007 21:41, Donovan Niesen wrote: > This must be it. I have a script that updates the db on machine every > day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some > error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out. From webmaster at mn-linux.org Mon Jan 8 01:05:26 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 01:05:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701080705.l0875Q722504@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Computers and Misc For sale: 1. Dell Insperion E1505 Specs - 2.00ghz Intel Duo Core(Not Core 2) 2gb Ram 80gb hdd Sony dvd+/- RW Intel 3945 A/B/G Wireless Onboard - 10/100 Nic, 56k Modem Sound Mini Firewire 4 usb 2.0 ports 6 in one media card reader and Multi-Media buttons on the front pannel. Other - System does come with all restore cds. WinXp Pro Sp2 cd provided by dell with licence code. Remaining 2 1/2 years on Gold level warrenty. Power cable and charger. No Operating system currently loaded. But Can have Ubuntu/Kbuntu/Mandriva/Fedora loaded for showing. $1400.00 Or Best Offer --- Other parts/machines - Gateway 1.4ghz Athlon 128mb pc-133 ram 3gb hdd cd-rw drive $35.00 --- Pc-Chips Motherboard with 1.2ghz Duron 128mb pc-133ram no hdds,cd, case or powersupply. $20.00 -- Intel Celeron 500mhz box, cd-drive, dlink nic, 3gb hdd, 384mb ram. $10.00 --- Cash or Certified Check only. Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From erriiik at riseup.net Mon Jan 8 01:15:56 2007 From: erriiik at riseup.net (Erik) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 01:15:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] a few good geeks... In-Reply-To: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: <45A1EFAC.7010805@riseup.net> Hi Everyone, The Twin Cities Indymedia collective is working on a project to outfit coffeeshops and community centers around the Metro Area with free computer kiosks with which people can check the indymedia site (http://www.twincities.indymedia.org), other news sites, their email, or whatever. Our purpose is to provide access to the alternative information flows of the Internet and Indymedia (the world's largest independent media network), as well as general computer access, to people who would otherwise not have it. We are hoping to start out with 1-2 kiosks in the coming months, and eventually expand as far as possible. In the spirit of freedom of information, we would like to run the computer kiosks on Linux. And that's where you (hopefully!) come in. We need volunteers (a few good geeks) to set up donated computers with Linux, and if possible, maintain them once installed. The kiosks will then not only promote independent media, but the open-source movement as well. If you are interested in participating in this project, please email me off-list. I also need help with booting Ubuntu from a firewire drive, but that's an entirely different story... Thanks for your help! in solidarity, Erik From dniesen at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 06:34:05 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:34:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df In-Reply-To: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com> On 1/7/07, Dave Carlson wrote: > "lsof +L1" should tell you the file(s) in question and if they are regular > files, the size also. > > -Dave > > On Sunday 07 January 2007 21:41, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > This must be it. I have a script that updates the db on machine every > > day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some > > error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out. > The culprit ended up being mysql.log which was growing huge because it was logging every query. It seems that when it got rotated out each morning the file was unlinked but was not converted to free space. Turning this logging off saved my valuable space. Thanks again, everyone! -- Donovan Niesen From nate at refried.org Mon Jan 8 08:03:08 2007 From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:03:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com> <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com> <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com> <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net> <47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070108140308.GA25511@refried.org> On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 06:34:05AM -0600, Donovan Niesen wrote: > The culprit ended up being mysql.log which was growing huge because it > was logging every query. It seems that when it got rotated out each > morning the file was unlinked but was not converted to free space. > Turning this logging off saved my valuable space. If you still want this logging, you should check to see if MySQL has some configuration directives for rotating the logs. Some daemons have an option to rotates logs themselves, others accept a signal when their logs have been rotated so they can close and re-open their logs. Nate From rclark at lakesplus.com Mon Jan 8 14:09:54 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:09:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel Message-ID: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system. I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well. There was an error message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to grub ... searched the web, but no luck. so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel and I get [rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5 kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 The 2.16.15 version is what I have now. But ... the grub.conf shows nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install. I tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054. How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and why does it not show up out on the repositories? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Randy From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 09:37:24 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:37:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server Message-ID: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com> At the place where I work, paperwork is overkill. I am getting ready to demo BugZilla to my company as a method of tracking system bugs and projects, etc. Along with this, we need a great way to pool all our documents together, so I am hoping to find a product (free preferred) that we can put all of our notes together. Here are some examples of what we currently do: 1) I log my time spent on projects in to a spreadsheet (for my own use), which I then turn around and enter in to our time keeping system (company-made app). I then enter this information in to a word document as a "Status Report" for the week. On days in which I telecommute from home, I have to fill out a "Telecommuting Status Report", which is a word document. I first enter what I plan to get accomplished from home on this document, then the next day update this document with what I actually got done for the day. Finally, at the end of the week, I have to summarize all these times by GL-Number on a time card, which is not automated, it is actually entered by pen and paper. This time card is what is sent to payroll. 2) Our CSRs have tons of documents about everything, but they are mostly word and excel documents saved in dozens of folders all over the network. They also have the biggest collections of emails. I did get them going on the use of Google Desktop Search, which has helped them a lot. 3) Our operations department has many many jobs. They keep paper check lists for a lot of what they do throughout the day. I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what. If anyone has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it would be appreciated. We do run an internal linux server, but only because I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop (though we have a linux ip phone system going now). So any products mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on Windows desktops. I would prefer it run in the linux box myself. Thanks in advance. - Joey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070111/0b9f1194/attachment.htm From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 14:50:15 2007 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:50:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts Message-ID: We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl 2.0.3 & perl 5.8.8. When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is the text of the script displayed: eg. #!/usr/bin/perl print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n"; print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n"; Theoretically, this should be about a 5-step process, and all the make-tests for all-dependencies pass with flying colors. Nevertheless, once compiled, the scripts (such as the one above) still do not run. Any ideas on where to start looking to troubleshoot this? -- Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070108/4467be94/attachment.htm From gscottwalters at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 10:50:39 2007 From: gscottwalters at gmail.com (G. Scott Walters) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:50:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Problem, Message-ID: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue... Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file til the EOF and not beyond? I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm working on that. Any thoughts or ideas? -- - G. Scott Walters http://www.apt518.net From david.alitz at charter.net Thu Jan 11 06:35:40 2007 From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:35:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration Message-ID: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net> I've got a small server ( 4 drive bays ) with a RAID1 (mirrored) md array on two drives that I'd like to convert to RAID5 ( adding two new drives -- one active and one as a spare). I'm starting with 4 drives. Two active in the current mirror and two unused. The process I'm considering: Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three unused drives Create a new RAID5 array Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror Wait for mirror to sync (thus copying the existing data to the new device) fail the remaining drive in the RAID mirror remove the old md device update GRUB and boot from the new RAID5 device Does anyone know if md can be used recursively like that? More importantly -- will if cause major problems if I try? I'm guessing that md won't let me do it; but it sure would be easier than moving the files by hand. Dave Alitz From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Jan 11 14:41:23 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:41:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26755.168.86.12.2.1168548083.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> > Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:09:54 -0600 > From: Randy Clarksean > I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my > kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system. > > I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well. There was an error > message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to > grub ... searched the web, but no luck. Hmm. More information might be useful. I'm running FC5 on one box. > so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel and I get > > [rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel > kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5 > kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 I see you've got the kernel package installed. Odd. I get this: [root at tick ~]# rpm -qa | grep kernel kernel-devel-2.6.18-1.2200.fc5 kernel-devel-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 kernel-2.6.18-1.2200.fc5 kernel-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 [root at tick ~]# uname -r 2.6.18-1.2200.fc5 Grub has entries for those two kernels. (Hmm. I must not have rebooted after the last kernel update.) Here's my grub entry for that kernel: title Fedora Core (2.6.18-1.2257.fc5) root (hd0,0) kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 ro root=LABEL=/1 initrd /initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img I did nothing special to any repository or yum configuration. It just works. "yum update" updates the kernel just like everything else. > The 2.16.15 version is what I have now. But ... the grub.conf shows > nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install. I > tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but > none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054. > > How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and > why does it not show up out on the repositories? > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Randy Try yum update. If that doesn't work, try "yum clean all" then "yum update". Send us the output if the update fails. Chris From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 14:51:12 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:51:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/07, Joey Rockhold wrote: > I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what. If anyone > has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it > would be appreciated. We do run an internal linux server, but only because > I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop > (though we have a linux ip phone system going now). So any products > mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on > Windows desktops. I would prefer it run in the linux box myself. A local company, mindtouch, sells a product that should do what you want. Check them out here: mindtouch.com -Eric From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 15:04:06 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:04:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel In-Reply-To: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <579c6fd30701111304s27e05dc9y1263f4914713a07c@mail.gmail.com> On 1/8/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my > kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system. > > I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well. There was an error > message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to > grub ... searched the web, but no luck. > > so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel and I get > > [rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel > kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5 > kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 > > The 2.16.15 version is what I have now. But ... the grub.conf shows > nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install. I > tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but > none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054. > > How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and > why does it not show up out on the repositories? > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Randy Hi Randy, For whatever reason, the rpm package couldn't update your /boot/grub/menu.lst (that's a sym link to /boot/grub/grub.conf in case your machine is missing it). First check that it created a new, up-to-date initrd image for the new kernel. You should find an initrd image file in /boot that has the kernel version number after it. So it should look something like: /boot/initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img If not, you'll need to create it by using the mkinitrd command like so: mkinitrd /boot/initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img Replace with the directory name in /lib/modules/ that matches the new kernel version. In your case it will probably be 2.6.18-1.2257.fc5. Now update your /boot/grub/menu.lst file to include the kernel and initrd image (I'm assuming the kernel is in the proper place since it showes the RPM is installed). The simplest way to do that would be to copy the existing entry for your older kernel and change the version numbers to match the new kernel on the kernel and initrd lines. Don't forget to change the title line to reflect the new kernel version. That should do it. Good luck! Eric From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 15:06:06 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:06:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A6A6BE.6090403@gmail.com> Its probably a matter of adding the proper handlers for the file type in your httpd.conf file (assuming the modules are loaded already). If you are seeing it parsed as a text file, the server just doesn't realize that it needs to send files with this extension into the module - so it guesses at the mime type, and treats it as a text file. # # AddHandler allows you to map certain file extensions to "handlers": # actions unrelated to filetype. These can be either built into the server # or added with the Action directive (see below) # # To use CGI scripts outside of ScriptAliased directories: # (You will also need to add "ExecCGI" to the "Options" directive.) # #AddHandler cgi-script .cgi I'm not sure on the specifics. I've done it for php a number of times, but not perl. It probably depends on how the perl module is put together. For php, I have to do the following: LoadModule php5_module modules/libphp5.so AddType application/x-httpd-php .php -- **************************** Daniel Armbrust Biomedical Informatics Mayo Clinic Rochester daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu http://informatics.mayo.edu/ From sac at cheesecake.org Thu Jan 11 15:13:27 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:13:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration In-Reply-To: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net> References: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net> Message-ID: <20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 at 06.35.40 -0600, Dave Alitz wrote: > I'm starting with 4 drives. Two active in the current mirror and two > unused. The process I'm considering: > > Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three > unused drives > Create a new RAID5 array > Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror RAID1 doesn't work the way you think it does. You'll end up with a degraded RAID1 made from a RAID5. It will work though. I recommend creating a degraded RAID5 from your two unused disks and doing a copy to the new array. After the data are copied, fail one disk out of the old array and add it to the new array, which will cause parity to be computed. After that's done, nuke the old array and add the last disk to the new array as a hot spare. This way, you end up with one array composed of physical disks, and your data are always in two places throughout the process. -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From rwh at visi.com Thu Jan 11 14:54:36 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:54:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Problem, In-Reply-To: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45A6A40C.10700@visi.com> You may want to take a look at pdftk (http://www.accesspdf.com/pdftk/) and see if it can read and write the problem files which hopefully gives you a valid pdf on output. There are also some Perl modules that can read and write pdf files, http://search.cpan.org/~antro/PDF-111/PDF.pm I've used both fairly successfully to create/manage/manipulate a couple of million pages of survey results and they are both pretty solid. I think Ghostscript could also 'print' the pdfs to another pdf which might clear out the errors as well. Finally, Imagemagick can do a conversion from pdf -> ps -> pdf that might fix things as well, although it is a lot slower than the other options. --rick G. Scott Walters wrote: > I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some > extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important > things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of > Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue... > > Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper > tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I > open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file > til the EOF and not beyond? > > I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm > working on that. > > Any thoughts or ideas? > From admin at lctn.org Thu Jan 11 10:38:55 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:38:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] ppd for Konica Message-ID: <36767.64.8.149.194.1168533535.squirrel@lctn.org> I am trying to share a Konica Bizhub 350/250 through Ubuntu. I am having difficulty finding the right driver. Anyone have a link to one that will give me full function? Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From david.alitz at charter.net Thu Jan 11 16:29:05 2007 From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:29:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration In-Reply-To: <20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org> References: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net> <20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <45A6BA31.7000202@charter.net> Thanks. After playing with it I figured out I'd still have an md superblock for the mirrored array on my disk. I was hoping I could accomplish everything without taking it offline -- I guess not. P.S. - In case anyone is following along; I'm actually booting from a separate mirrored boot partition (/boot). The RAID5 array holds /, /var, and /home. I won't need to make any changes in GRUB since I'm leaving that array alone. The last I heard, you can't boot from RAID5. Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 at 06.35.40 -0600, Dave Alitz wrote: > >> I'm starting with 4 drives. Two active in the current mirror and two >> unused. The process I'm considering: >> >> Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three >> unused drives >> Create a new RAID5 array >> Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror >> > > RAID1 doesn't work the way you think it does. You'll end up with a > degraded RAID1 made from a RAID5. It will work though. > > I recommend creating a degraded RAID5 from your two unused disks and > doing a copy to the new array. After the data are copied, fail one disk > out of the old array and add it to the new array, which will cause parity > to be computed. After that's done, nuke the old array and add the last > disk to the new array as a hot spare. > > This way, you end up with one array composed of physical disks, and your > data are always in two places throughout the process. > > From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Jan 10 05:06:02 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:06:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701101106.l0AB62O07004@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: misc for sale Have the following for sale: Belkin OmniView SE 4-Port KVM - Comes with cables for 4 PC's and rack mount bracket ($50) IBM ServerRAID controller FRU# 76H6875 ($20) SIIG UltraATA 133 PCI controller card SC-PE4B12 ($15) Promise ATA RAID controller FastTRAK SX4000 w/256MB RAM ($50) Linksys Wireless-G Access Point Model: WAP54G ($40 new in unopened box) The following cards are free: Adaptec AHA-2940/2940U SCSI controller Adaptec AVA-2906 controller Adaptec AHA-2940 Controller 3-Com 3c905-tx NIC (Qty:2) USR internal ISA Sportster modem Model#0461 Internal ISA modem (unsure of make/model) Seller Email address: sfertch at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 17:35:21 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:35:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com> <579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701111535q792f8e7fy31a74779cfcad4a@mail.gmail.com> On 1/11/07, Eric Peterson wrote: > On 1/11/07, Joey Rockhold wrote: > > I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what. If anyone > > has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it > > would be appreciated. We do run an internal linux server, but only because > > I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop > > (though we have a linux ip phone system going now). So any products > > mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on > > Windows desktops. I would prefer it run in the linux box myself. > > A local company, mindtouch, sells a product that should do what you > want. Check them out here: > > mindtouch.com > > -Eric > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Looks like what they sell is just DekiWiki in a pre-configured server. The Wiki is pretty impressive and may do a lot of what you are looking to do. Here's a direct link: http://www.opengarden.org/dekiwiki Their demo is pretty impressive as well: http://mindtouch.com/demo/index.html -- Donovan Niesen From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Jan 11 23:09:14 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:09:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Problem, In-Reply-To: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, G. Scott Walters wrote: > I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some > extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important > things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of > Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue... > > Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper > tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I > open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file til > the EOF and not beyond? > > I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm > working on that. This should do it: perl -pi -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf That will remove everything after the newline following the first %%EOF in all .pdf files in the default directory. I tested it on some files and it worked. It can be used if the file is not corrupted -- it will then leave the file unchanged except that it will change the date stamp. It is pretty fast. Best, Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Jan 11 23:52:28 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:52:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Problem, In-Reply-To: References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > This should do it: > > perl -pi -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf By the way, that alters the files in place -- replacing the original with the repaired version. If you want to retain the originals with a .bak extension, do this: perl -pi.bak -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf Mike From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com Fri Jan 12 11:42:32 2007 From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:42:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com> On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 02:50:15PM -0600, Jordan Peacock wrote: > We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl > 2.0.3 & perl 5.8.8. > > When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is > the text of the script displayed: > > eg. > > #!/usr/bin/perl > print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n"; > print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n"; It's not clear from your message what configuration you're using. Here's a link to the "quick start" document on the mod_perl homepage: http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/intro/start_fast.html perhaps that can point you in the right direction.... -- trammell at el-swifto.com 9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58 FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5 Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG) Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 11:50:14 2007 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:50:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts In-Reply-To: <20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com> References: <20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com> Message-ID: We got it working. My colleague will follow up with an explanatory post. Thanks everyone. On 1/12/07, John J. Trammell wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 02:50:15PM -0600, Jordan Peacock wrote: > > We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl > > 2.0.3 & perl 5.8.8. > > > > When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is > > the text of the script displayed: > > > > eg. > > > > #!/usr/bin/perl > > print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n"; > > print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n"; > > It's not clear from your message what configuration you're using. > Here's a link to the "quick start" document on the mod_perl homepage: > > http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/intro/start_fast.html > > perhaps that can point you in the right direction.... > > -- > trammell at el-swifto.com 9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58 FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5 > Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG) Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070112/f7f44f38/attachment.htm From dan at dandrake.org Fri Jan 12 14:26:15 2007 From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:26:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? Message-ID: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match anything. I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace, then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment. Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but that's an ugly solution. TIA for the help. Dan 1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/ -- Ceci n'est pas une .signature. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070112/82711922/attachment.pgp From tclug at freakzilla.com Fri Jan 12 14:37:59 2007 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: Can you do something like !"" ? On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Dan Drake wrote: > I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match > anything. > > I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and > I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace, > then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim > environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like > to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the > particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment. > > Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like > "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but > that's an ugly solution. > > TIA for the help. > > Dan > > 1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/ > -- > Ceci n'est pas une .signature. > -Yaron -- From andyzib at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 14:41:28 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:41:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: I'm no regexp expert, but !.* should the opposite of .* (match everything and nothing). -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From andyzib at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 14:44:23 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:44:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: Err, never mind me that's not right. It's been a long day and I left my regex book at home. ;) On 1/12/07, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > I'm no regexp expert, but !.* should the opposite of .* (match > everything and nothing). -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From andyzib at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 14:57:48 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:57:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: OK, I'm willing to try sticking my foot in my mouth one more time. ;-) Negative lookahead if you want to match something not followed by something else. Like if you wanted to find a q that wasn't followed by a u: q(?!u) So say we want to match anything zero or more times that isn't followed by anything zero or more times... .*(?!.*) I can't find anything that the above regex will match, and if I change it to a positive look ahead .*(?=.*) it matches everything... It might work. Good luck. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Fri Jan 12 14:56:46 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:56:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: <1168635406.29929.1169005671@webmail.messagingengine.com> Wouldn't that match everything? ----- Original message ----- From: "Yaron" To: "TCLUG" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? Can you do something like !"" ? On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Dan Drake wrote: > I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match > anything. > > I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and > I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace, > then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim > environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like > to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the > particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment. > > Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like > "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but > that's an ugly solution. > > TIA for the help. > > Dan > > 1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/ > -- > Ceci n'est pas une .signature. > -Yaron -- _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 15:17:36 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:17:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: > I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match > anything. How about "(?!)" ? For the record, I googled '"regular expression" "never matches"', and came up with the following from a paper about creating a regex debugger in perl (http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/): ". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the regex engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. " sm From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Fri Jan 12 14:55:02 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:55:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: <1168635302.29746.1169003937@webmail.messagingengine.com> This means that you know when you're in the verbatim area since you'll have to know when to switch the regex object. With this knowledge block out the "comment found" part of your code when you're in the verbatim environment. The implementation is up to your imagination. ----- Original message ----- From: "Dan Drake" To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:26:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match anything. I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace, then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment. Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but that's an ugly solution. TIA for the help. Dan 1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/ -- Ceci n'est pas une .signature. From srcfoo at gmail.com Fri Jan 12 16:05:29 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:05:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: <579c6fd30701121405ve258418heac22c2ea900bcc5@mail.gmail.com> On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: > then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim > environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like Dan, I don't understand why you'd want to waste cpu cycles checking a regular expression if you know that you are either in the "verbatim environment" or not, which you imply you know if you can switch re objects. If you're using readlines() on the file object to parse it, couldn't you simply set a flag when you find the start of your verbatim section and unset the flag when you find the end? Then as long as that flag is set you'd simply call "continue" to get to the next line after checking for the end of the verbatim section. How do you know that you're in the "verbatim environment"? Cheers! Eric From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Jan 12 18:31:43 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:31:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Sam Martin wrote: > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match >> anything. > > How about "(?!)" ? > > For the record, I googled '"regular expression" "never matches"', and > came up with the following from a paper about creating a regex debugger > in perl (http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/): > > ". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the regex > engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. " In case anyone is interested in more on this, from "man perlre": `(?!pattern)' A zero-width negative look-ahead assertion. For example `/foo(?!bar)/' matches any occurrence of "foo" that isn't followed by "bar". Note however that look-ahead and look-behind are NOT the same thing. You cannot use this for look-behind. If you are looking for a "bar" that isn't preceded by a "foo", `/(?!foo)bar/' will not do what you want. That's because the `(?!foo)' is just saying that the next thing cannot be "foo"--and it's not, it's a "bar", so "foobar" will match. You would have to do something like `/(?!foo)...bar/' for that. We say "like" because there's the case of your "bar" not having three characters before it. You could cover that this way: `/(?:(?!foo)...|^.{0,2})bar/'. Sometimes it's still easier just to say: if (/bar/ && $` !~ /foo$/) For look-behind see below. From esper at sherohman.org Sat Jan 13 12:20:59 2007 From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:20:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: <20070113182059.GS6486@genma.sherohman.org> On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 03:17:36PM -0600, Sam Martin wrote: > ". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the > regex engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. " Aye, and that's the flaw I see in this scheme... Backtracking. Whenever the regex engine hits the unmatchable (part of) your regex, it will happily back up, be a little less greedy, and try again to find a match. This can be a very expensive process, especially if your unmatchable bit is preceded by (or includes) a .* or similar token. Isaac and Eric have the right idea: Don't use an unmatchable regex, use a flag that tells you not to run a regex at all. It'll be much faster. -- I would rather be exposed to the inconvenience attending too much Liberty than those attending too small degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson From vandongend at yahoo.com Sat Jan 13 14:10:47 2007 From: vandongend at yahoo.com (David Van Dongen) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] Need help installing on a ThinkPad Message-ID: <855782.75852.qm@web53608.mail.yahoo.com> I have two questions: I need help installing Ubuntu on my ThinkPad. It does not recognize the external CD-ROM as a boot device, and sbootmgr does not see it either. Any suggestions? When does the group meet? David ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From dan at dandrake.org Sat Jan 13 14:30:56 2007 From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:30:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: <20070113203056.GA9587@dandrake.org> Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll try some of those and see what works. Dan -- Ceci n'est pas une .signature. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070113/a794f816/attachment.pgp From slushpupie at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 08:44:41 2007 From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( ) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:44:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: > I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match > anything. Ive used $^ before. But it does depend on how you are using it. the end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^ match new-lines. -- Jay Kline http://www.slushpupie.com/ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 15 09:15:59 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:15:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: > >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match >> anything. > > Ive used $^ before. But it does depend on how you are using it. the > end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^ > match new-lines. I don't understand how that can fail. How can $ and ^ match newlines? Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments? When I tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea. It does not match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example. Mike From slushpupie at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 09:41:45 2007 From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( ) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:41:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: > > > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: > > > >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match > >> anything. > > > > Ive used $^ before. But it does depend on how you are using it. the > > end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^ > > match new-lines. > > > I don't understand how that can fail. How can $ and ^ match newlines? > Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments? When I > tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea. It does not > match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example. > Im not a big python person, but in perl if you add the m modifier for "multiple lines" it changes the definition of ^ and $ to match newlines. I assumed python would have something like it. As long as they keep their standard definitions, though, you should never find the end of a string before the beginning. -- Jay Kline http://www.slushpupie.com/ From clay at fandre.com Mon Jan 15 10:11:05 2007 From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Volunteers Message-ID: <45ABA799.1090208@fandre.com> As most of you know, the TCLUG meetings has been pretty inactive over the last year or so. This has been because of the lack of time to get things coordinated, mainly because of my kids taking up all of my free time. But I would like to get the group back on it's feet and back to a point where we have regular monthly (or bi-monthly) meetings. But in order to do that I need some help. So if anyone is willing to donate their time to the cause, please let me know. Here are some of the areas I would like help with: 1. Coordinating monthly meetings. (Scheduling/Booking meeting locations) 2. Soliciting speakers and/or deciding topics 3. Special events coordinator (installfests, other local events) If you are interested in helping out, please let me know. If you do volunteer, you will get a free lifetime membership to the TCLUG and your name on the tclug website if you desire. How can you pass that up? Thanks and happy Linux'ing! -- Clay From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 15 10:14:51 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:14:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: > On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: >> >> > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote: >> > >> >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match >> >> anything. >> > >> > Ive used $^ before. But it does depend on how you are using it. the >> > end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^ >> > match new-lines. >> >> >> I don't understand how that can fail. How can $ and ^ match newlines? >> Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments? When I >> tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea. It does not >> match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example. > > > Im not a big python person, but in perl if you add the m modifier for > "multiple lines" it changes the definition of ^ and $ to match newlines. > I assumed python would have something like it. As long as they keep > their standard definitions, though, you should never find the end of a > string before the beginning. I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp. Still, I mostly use perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better. I can't get it to mess up. For example: # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms' abcd efgh What am I doing wrong? I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match anything. Mike From slushpupie at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 11:56:57 2007 From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( ) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:56:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: > I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp. Still, I mostly use > perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better. I can't > get it to mess up. For example: > > # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms' > abcd > > efgh > > What am I doing wrong? I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match > anything. You are right, I cant get it to match either. Though, I think it should. (Ive never *needed* to match that before) If you are trying to match end-of-line followed by beginning-of-line, that should be a perfectly valid sequence when you have a few blank lines in there, as per your example. So how would one go about matching that? In a more "rational" case, you should be able to something like this: $_ = "foo\n\n\nbar"; if(/^$^$/ms) { print "it has 2 blank lines in a row\n"; } But that dosnt seem to match either. Now you have me wondering... -- Jay Kline http://www.slushpupie.com/ From slushpupie at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 12:03:48 2007 From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( ) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:03:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On 1/15/07, slushpupie at gmail.com wrote: > On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: > > I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp. Still, I mostly use > > perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better. I can't > > get it to mess up. For example: > > > > # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms' > > abcd > > > > efgh > > > > What am I doing wrong? I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match > > anything. > Bah. After a little more careful reading, ^ and $ match just before and after a newline. Not the newline itself. Therefore it is impossible to have $^ match anything. -- Jay Kline http://www.slushpupie.com/ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 15 12:08:01 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:08:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: > On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: >> I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp. Still, I mostly use >> perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better. I can't >> get it to mess up. For example: >> >> # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms' >> abcd >> >> efgh >> >> What am I doing wrong? I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match >> anything. > > You are right, I cant get it to match either. Though, I think it > should. (Ive never *needed* to match that before) If you are trying > to match end-of-line followed by beginning-of-line, that should be a > perfectly valid sequence when you have a few blank lines in there, as > per your example. So how would one go about matching that? In a more > "rational" case, you should be able to something like this: > > $_ = "foo\n\n\nbar"; > if(/^$^$/ms) { print "it has 2 blank lines in a row\n"; } > > But that dosnt seem to match either. Now you have me wondering... Of course, the good thing about this is that you didn't want it to match! The idea was to find a string that matched nothing. So far, so good. ;-) Also, "$^" is way better than "(?!)" because "$^" is presumably always very fast. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 15 12:08:40 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:08:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches? In-Reply-To: References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, wrote: > On 1/15/07, slushpupie at gmail.com wrote: >> On 1/15/07, Mike Miller wrote: >> > I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp. Still, I mostly >> use >> > perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better. I >> can't >> > get it to mess up. For example: >> > >> > # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms' >> > abcd >> > >> > efgh >> > >> > What am I doing wrong? I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match >> > anything. >> > > Bah. After a little more careful reading, ^ and $ match just before > and after a newline. Not the newline itself. Therefore it is > impossible to have $^ match anything. Excellent. That is what I thought. So I think you have the best answer so far to the question. Mike From jesse_s at beezwax.net Wed Jan 3 10:15:53 2007 From: jesse_s at beezwax.net (Jesse Sanford) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:15:53 -0800 Subject: [tclug-list] PHP misery with Apache and MySQL on Debian Sarge Message-ID: <06102789-4560-40CB-A3A8-E16EA273CFA8@beezwax.net> Hi Steve, I've been seeing exactly the same problem you described in your post to the tclug-list on July 6, right down to the same function calls. Also using debian packages php4-mysql, etc., and Apache 1.3 from sarge. Did you ever solve this problem? Anyone else report it that you found? Thanks very much for your help! (Open Source rocks.) -- Jesse Sanford Infrastructure Architect beezwax datatools, inc. 486 Mandana Blvd., Ste. 6 Oakland, CA 94610 direct (415)794-4393 office (510) 835-4483 www.beezwax.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070103/daa1884d/attachment-0001.htm From becca at ilsr.org Fri Jan 5 14:34:11 2007 From: becca at ilsr.org (Becca Vargo Daggett) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:34:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Community Discussion of Municipal Wireless Message-ID: Please join Concordia's College of Business and Organizational Leadership for a community discussion of municipal wireless. This event will use futurist Joel Barker's tool for understanding change. The "Implications Wheel" draws upon group wisdom to quickly and effectively uncover the short and long term implications of any change. Topic: Should Wi-Fi in Saint Paul be publicly or privately owned? When: 3:30-6 p.m., Jan. 17, 2007 Where: Library & Technology Center, Concordia University Hosted by: Concordia University College of Business and Organizational Leadership Participants will uncover second- and third-order implications of citywide wireless projects. Saint Paul is the example, but residents and decision makers in all metro cities can learn from the exercise. The event is free, but you must register online at: http://www.csp.edu/CBOL/strategicdiscovery/ Send questions to: strategicdiscovery at csp.edu Joel Barker - "We did a wheel for NASA on a project they had been considering for a year. In three hours, our team had identified a dozen implications as important as any their experts had uncovered. The director had to start over in his assessment of the project." Read a Pioneer Press article about Joel Barker and the Implications Wheel: http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/special_packages/ biz_home/15924801.htm Register online at: http://www.csp.edu/CBOL/strategicdiscovery/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070105/1cb61e1d/attachment-0001.htm From dutchwaffles at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 21:55:30 2007 From: dutchwaffles at gmail.com (Rey Willems) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:55:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New install fest Message-ID: Hello I would like some help in the switch to linux then I found the site of the minneapolis user group. I have been looking to convert to Linux how ever I'm not too great computer so I would like a little help. IF any one would like to help me convert please let me know. I would be interested in converting my PC. I am also interested in possibly converting my x box to a Linux machine if you know anyone that has been involved with that. Thank you for the time, Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070114/7ba13e01/attachment-0001.htm From swaite at sbn-services.com Mon Jan 15 13:33:48 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:33:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP Message-ID: I have been calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated Sean Waite -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070115/eaa7edaf/attachment.htm From nate at refried.org Mon Jan 15 13:46:53 2007 From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:46:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070115194653.GB3885@refried.org> On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 01:33:48PM -0600, Sean Waite wrote: > I have been > calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a > decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the Check out visi.com. http://home.visi.com/services/dsl/dsl_standard.html Nate From srcfoo at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 13:56:16 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <579c6fd30701151156k6b785aa6xf5e105a07af93749@mail.gmail.com> On 1/15/07, Sean Waite wrote: > > > I have been calling around to different services without luck so far trying > to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the > mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business > services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back > this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so > long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent > DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host > my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR > record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since > they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR > record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated Have you looked at Comcast's business service? They offer static IP and the prices are pretty good depending on what you need. Their lowest end service is just slightly more expensive then the normal residential service. The best bang for you buck IMO is at the 4M down/ 768K up for $90. Don't quote me on those numbers, but I think they're close. -Eric From tclug at natecarlson.com Mon Jan 15 14:00:11 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:00:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > The catch is I need a static IP. So far the mainstream companies like > Qwest only offer this with their Business services, which can not be > installed at a residence. Qwest will install business services at a residence; they charge something like $13/mo for the ISP service, IIRC. I also highly recommend ipHouse - http://www.ipHouse.com. Tell 'em I sent you. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 13:59:38 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:59:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45ABDD2A.1030401@gmail.com> Could you get by using something like http://www.dyndns.com/services/ ? I've used them for quite some time (for free!) to get a name to map back to my dynamic comcast address. They have fairly cheap pay services for more advanced needs. Probably a lot cheaper than business package dsl. Dan -- **************************** Daniel Armbrust Biomedical Informatics Mayo Clinic Rochester daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu http://informatics.mayo.edu/ From sos at zjod.net Mon Jan 15 13:58:52 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:58:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200701151958.l0FJwqqZ006676@zjod.net> Sean Waite wrote: > > I have been > calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a > decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the > mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business > services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back > this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so > long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent > DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host > > my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR > record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since > they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR > > record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated > > Sean Waite Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server. There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at your domain, too. Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes) for a list of suppliers. I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service. Been with 'em for 5+ years and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast. Costs involved are: - monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this) - a domain name ($10-35/year) - a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year) Hope this helps, -S sos at zjod.net http://zjod.net From drue at therub.org Mon Jan 15 13:53:46 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:53:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org> On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 01:33:48PM -0600, Sean Waite wrote: > > I have been calling around to different services without luck so far > trying to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static > IP. So far the mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with > their Business services, which can not be installed at a residence. I > remember years back this was not the case, but since I have used cable > for my residence for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it > still possible to get a decent DSL service with static IP? The reason > I need static is I am looking to host my own e-mail and web, which not > only requires just a static IP but a PTR record as well. I had thought > that my present Comcast could do this since they really do not chance > the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR record for you. Any > help on what I can do would be much appreciated This topic seems to come up every 6-9 months.. If you have Qwest for telephone service, which it sounds like you do, I can *highly* recommend IPHouse. Visi is also very good. They will set you up with a static, or many statics - PTR, the whole shabang. If you're stuck in sprint land, like me, .. No Dice. Dan From sos at zjod.net Mon Jan 15 14:16:29 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:16:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? Message-ID: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like: > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4 and > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others. -S From radke at winternet.com Mon Jan 15 14:26:06 2007 From: radke at winternet.com (Joshua Radke) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:26:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hrm, I am just in the process of setting up a FC6 machine at home, spurred by the sudden appearance of quest DSL in our neighborhood (I was thrilled to get off of Comcast's terms of service). I have the residential service, and pay $5.95/month for a static IP. They will provide a single reverse DNS entry for your static IP (accessible from their website tools). It may be that they're being more 'generous' because of their new presense in the neighborhood, I'm not sure. On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:00:11 -0600, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Sean Waite wrote: >> The catch is I need a static IP. So far the mainstream companies like >> Qwest only offer this with their Business services, which can not be >> installed at a residence. > > Qwest will install business services at a residence; they charge > something > like $13/mo for the ISP service, IIRC. > > I also highly recommend ipHouse - http://www.ipHouse.com. Tell 'em I sent > you. :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | > | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From sfertch at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 14:27:15 2007 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:27:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: <20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org> References: <20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org> Message-ID: <67f3084a0701151227n4367341an4986ddbe4a25d8cf@mail.gmail.com> On 1/15/07, Dan Rue wrote: > > This topic seems to come up every 6-9 months.. > > If you have Qwest for telephone service, which it sounds like you do, I > can *highly* recommend IPHouse. Visi is also very good. They will set > you up with a static, or many statics - PTR, the whole shabang. > > If you're stuck in sprint land, like me, .. No Dice. > You can get static IP's with Qwest and you don't even need a business account to do it: Qwest internet basic $29.99 to $49.99 a month IIRC for the line depending on speed $10.99 for ISP services (no e-mail, website, etc) $14.99 for a block of 8 static IP's. I just dropped my static IP's from Qwest which I've had for over 3 years. Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a couple years ago, and some headaches of moving DSL services from one phoneline to the other, I've never had a problem with Qwest service. Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything because they don't like Qwest. Then again, many of these same people are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what it is. -- -Shawn -Nemo me impune lacessit. Ne Obliviscaris.. From tim at filn.net Mon Jan 15 14:16:13 2007 From: tim at filn.net (Tim Erlin) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:16:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45ABE10D.2020406@filn.net> www.speakeasy.net Nationwide DSL service, also hosting and VoIP. Traditionally good service with technical folks. They also don't balk when you're talking to support and they find our you're on Linux. --Tim Sean Waite wrote: > I have been calling around to different services without luck so far > trying to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. > So far the mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their > Business services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember > years back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my > residence for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still > possible to get a decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need > static is I am looking to host my own e-mail and web, which not only > requires just a static IP but a PTR record as well. I had thought that > my present Comcast could do this since they really do not chance the IP > address, but they are not going to do a PTR record for you. Any help on > what I can do would be much appreciated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sean Waite > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- -| Tim Erlin -| tim at filn.net -| http://www.filn.net From h.iverson at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 14:42:03 2007 From: h.iverson at gmail.com (Harlan Iverson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:42:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? In-Reply-To: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> Message-ID: <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com> Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email. I don't kow the history behind the emails those headers were attached to, but my bet would be that the first is a known poster while the second is a first-time poster. On 1/15/07, Steve Siegfried wrote: > > > Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like: > > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > and > > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > > Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others. > > -S > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070115/5a2bf8c3/attachment.htm From josh at joshwelch.com Mon Jan 15 14:23:39 2007 From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:23:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? In-Reply-To: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> Message-ID: <20070115142339.gqbdzp0jjw8wkc8s@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Quoting Steve Siegfried : > > Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like: > > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > and > > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > > Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others. > > -S > There was a recent discussion of greylisting on the list not too long ago, and you can find out more on greylisting via Google. Basically, the first time you send an email you will get delayed until your mail server retries, which a spam zombie won't generally do. After that first delay and retry your future mail should go through without delay, unless your mail system is doing something foolish. It's nothing personal. Josh From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com Mon Jan 15 14:56:30 2007 From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A (MN14)) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:56:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: <45ABDD2A.1030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sean Waite wrote: > Could you get by using something like http://www.dyndns.com/services/ ? Excellent suggestion! I've used dyndns.org free service for about 6 years: more reliable than Qwest's DSL service. You need to run a client program - checks your ip every few minutes and updates DynDns's DNS when there's a change. You also have to update every 15 days even if there's no change (they don't want to maintain records for dead names). There's a number of 3rd party clients available. I can recommend ddclient (perl). http://www.dyndns.com/support/clients/third-party.html From tanner at real-time.com Mon Jan 15 14:56:11 2007 From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:56:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Harlan Iverson wrote: > Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email. I > don't kow the history behind the emails those headers were attached to, > but my bet would be that the first is a known poster while the second is a > first-time poster. > > On 1/15/07, Steve Siegfried wrote: >> >> >> Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like: >> > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4 >> and >> > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 >> Bingo! More details. If you haven't posted in 15 days, your whitelist entry will be purged from the database and you'll have to "re-greylist" -- Bob Tanner | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 From sos at zjod.net Mon Jan 15 14:58:42 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:58:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? In-Reply-To: <20070115142339.gqbdzp0jjw8wkc8s@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Message-ID: <200701152058.l0FKwg97026373@zjod.net> Josh Welch wrote: > > Quoting Steve Siegfried : > > > > > Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like: > > > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > > and > > > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 > > > > Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others. > > > > -S > > > > There was a recent discussion of greylisting on the list not too long > ago, and you can find out more on greylisting via Google. Basically, > the first time you send an email you will get delayed until your mail > server retries, which a spam zombie won't generally do. After that > first delay and retry your future mail should go through without delay, > unless your mail system is doing something foolish. > > It's nothing personal. > > Josh > ... with a nightly update or some such, right? I'm normally a tclug mailing list lurker, but 2 (with this post, 3) emails to the list today gave me the "X-Greylist: delayed" header and I wondered about it. thanks and never mind'idly, -S From tclug at beitsahour.net Mon Jan 15 15:03:23 2007 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:03:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP References: <200701151958.l0FJwqqZ006676@zjod.net> Message-ID: Steve Siegfried writes: > Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server. > There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive > email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at > your domain, too. Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes) > for a list of suppliers. > > I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service. Been with 'em for 5+ years > and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast. > > Costs involved are: > - monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this) > - a domain name ($10-35/year) > - a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year) I would urge you NOT to do it this way. while the rfcs are a bit fuzzy on the issue, an SMTP server should have matching forward and reverse dns entries and many anti spam features make use of this. I've been doing it for a long time and i am starting to see major ISPs and email providers(like Hotmail and AOL) do the same and reject mail when forward and reverse dns does not match. There is no reason why a legitimate mail server does not have matching dns entries. Do yourself and all of us a favor and do the right thing; use a mail server that has matching forward and reverse dns matching. -- Munir Nassar From sos at zjod.net Mon Jan 15 15:23:25 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:23:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200701152123.l0FLNPXU027949@zjod.net> Munir Nassar wrote: > > Steve Siegfried writes: > > > Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server. > > There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive > > email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at > > your domain, too. Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes) > > for a list of suppliers. > > > > I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service. Been with 'em for 5+ years > > and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast. > > > > Costs involved are: > > - monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this) > > - a domain name ($10-35/year) > > - a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year) > > I would urge you NOT to do it this way. while the rfcs are a bit fuzzy on > the issue, an SMTP server should have matching forward and reverse dns > entries and many anti spam features make use of this. > > I've been doing it for a long time and i am starting to see major > ISPs and email providers(like Hotmail and AOL) do the same and reject mail > when forward and reverse dns does not match. There is no reason why a > legitimate mail server does not have matching dns entries. > > Do yourself and all of us a favor and do the right thing; use a mail > server that has matching forward and reverse dns matching. > You get around that issue by using "Smart" relay host, which for Comcast looks like (in sendmail.cf): > # "Smart" relay host (may be null) > DSsmtp.comcast.net Hotmail, AOL, et al have been rejecting mail when forward/reverse DNS do not match for quite some time... like since CodeRed came out in 2001 (or was it the ILOVEYOU virus in 2000?). From sraun at fireopal.org Mon Jan 15 15:11:40 2007 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:11:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers? In-Reply-To: <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net> <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070115211140.GA19994@fireopal.org> On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:42:03PM -0600, Harlan Iverson wrote: > Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email. I thought that grey lists were normally configured to clear out their 'accept from' databases after some period of inactivity - the most common numbers I recall are 14 and 30 days. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From adam at askewview.net Mon Jan 15 17:08:18 2007 From: adam at askewview.net (Adam) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:08:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> I've got a DSL line from Qwest at my home. For my internet provider I'm using Qwest.net internet services. I have this at my residence and they allow for static IPs. -Adam On Mon, January 15, 2007 1:33 pm, Sean Waite wrote: > I have been > calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a > decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the > mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business > services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years > back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence > for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a > decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am > looking to host > > my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR > record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this > since they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to > do a PTR > > record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated > > > > > > > > > > > Sean Waite > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From jlund at portrait.com Mon Jan 15 17:28:39 2007 From: jlund at portrait.com (James Lund) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:28:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> References: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> Message-ID: <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com> I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced competitively. Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice. James. Adam wrote: > I've got a DSL line from Qwest at my home. For my internet provider I'm > using Qwest.net internet services. I have this at my residence and they > allow for static IPs. > > -Adam > > On Mon, January 15, 2007 1:33 pm, Sean Waite wrote: >> I have been >> calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a >> decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the >> mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business >> services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years >> back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence >> for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a >> decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am >> looking to host >> >> my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR >> record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this >> since they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to >> do a PTR >> >> record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sean Waite >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From tj at kewlness.net Tue Jan 16 00:48:29 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:48:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP Message-ID: <45AC753D.90605@kewlness.net> Sean, There are ways you can be obnoxious, sneaky, or simply cost effective, and tunnel/proxy a two way connection to serve traffic from home even with a dynamic DSL assignment. You need an external IP address somewhere to tunnel to, obviously. I wouldn't recommend it, if performance is a concern. It involves a little bit of rerouting, but it's mildly entertaining. No matter that they block certain ports, either. There are ways around that, as long as you can establish an outgoing connection to create the tunnel in the first place. I hope it doesn't sound too shady. It's actually quite legitimate and very practical if you are stuck between a rock and the wall. I just thought I'd mention it if you are desperate for a stopgap measure until you can get something else set up. If you are interested, please email me, and I'll chat with you about it. -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070116/1761dfe9/attachment.vcf From jima at beer.tclug.org Tue Jan 16 08:43:28 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:43:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com> References: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote: > I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced > competitively. Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice. You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? (Ask Nate Straz.) That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my 10m/1m Charter service. ;) Jima From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Tue Jan 16 14:09:04 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:09:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP Message-ID: >>> On 1/15/2007 at 2:27 PM, "Shawn Fertch" wrote: > Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything > because they don't like Qwest. Then again, many of these same people > are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what > it is. Shawn, You just mentioned three problems you personally had with Qwest, then you give people who have had REAL problems with Qwest a kick in the pants. I'd say I was hurt and offended, but I'd hate to complain, and it would only annoy you. ;-) Troy From nate at refried.org Tue Jan 16 14:29:26 2007 From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:29:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com> Message-ID: <20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org> On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 08:43:28AM -0600, Jima wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote: > > I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced > > competitively. Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice. > > You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? > (Ask Nate Straz.) That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my > 10m/1m Charter service. ;) IMHO, the best way to deal with Frontier is to let the guys at Visi do it for you. I run my email and web server from home and it's all thanks to Visi. They understand what an ISP is supposed to be. Nate From jlund at portrait.com Tue Jan 16 14:46:49 2007 From: jlund at portrait.com (James Lund) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:46:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: <20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org> References: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com> <20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org> Message-ID: <45AD39B9.6070803@portrait.com> Thanks Jima and Nate! I had no idea there was an option. Nate Straz wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 08:43:28AM -0600, Jima wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote: >>> I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced >>> competitively. Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice. >> You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? >> (Ask Nate Straz.) That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my >> 10m/1m Charter service. ;) > > IMHO, the best way to deal with Frontier is to let the guys at Visi do > it for you. I run my email and web server from home and it's all thanks > to Visi. They understand what an ISP is supposed to be. > > Nate > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From sfertch at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 18:02:52 2007 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 18:02:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67f3084a0701161602k18ec736buf9f584f6e9723422@mail.gmail.com> On 1/16/07, Troy.A Johnson wrote: > Shawn, > > You just mentioned three problems you personally had with Qwest, then > you give people who have had REAL problems with Qwest a kick in the > pants. I'd say I was hurt and offended, but I'd hate to complain, and > it would only annoy you. ;-) > > Troy > Please explain to me where I cited three problems with Qwest because I fail to see three. For the record, here's my e-mail again: ------- You can get static IP's with Qwest and you don't even need a business account to do it: Qwest internet basic $29.99 to $49.99 a month IIRC for the line depending on speed $10.99 for ISP services (no e-mail, website, etc) $14.99 for a block of 8 static IP's. I just dropped my static IP's from Qwest which I've had for over 3 years. Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a couple years ago, and some headaches of moving DSL services from one phoneline to the other, I've never had a problem with Qwest service. Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything because they don't like Qwest. Then again, many of these same people are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what it is. ------------- I fail to see where I mention three problems. I mentioned a line going bad, which I cannot say is an issue with Qwest because it is a failure of a component that had been buried for who knows how many years. Component failures do not necessarily equate to problems with the service provider. A problem would be if they sat on my call for weeks on end and not responding to the call. The issue I had with switching DSL service from one line to another was a minor issue, and from what I've gathered a non-standard request. I wanted to drop my second phone line, but my DSL service was connected to it. In the process, I wanted to keep my static IP's which I had had for quite some time to avoid unnecessary work on my end. Had I of moved, and had a DHCP assigned address it wouldn't have been an issue. Yes, I was more than a little peeved at the time. But, once I found that it isn't a common request, and they did it as I requested I was fine with it. There really was only one problem that I had, as I really cannot say that the buried phone line was an issue with Qwest because of age, weather exposure, and it was probably cut from people digging at one time or another. All of this was outside their control as far as I'm concerned. The reason for dropping my static IP's recently was because I moved my web services to a hosting service and don't have a need for statics anymore. My last statement in my original e-mail was for those who bitch just because they like to. If it's a legitimate problem that's fine. But, if you're bitching for no reason other than to hear yourself bitch, do us all a favor and STFU. -- -Shawn -Nemo me impune lacessit. Ne Obliviscaris.. From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Wed Jan 17 10:12:39 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:12:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP Message-ID: Shawn, >>> On 1/16/2007 at 6:02 PM, "Shawn Fertch" wrote: > Please explain to me where I cited three problems with Qwest because I > fail to see three. O.K. 1) > Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a > couple years ago, 2) 3) > and some headaches of moving DSL services from one > phoneline to the other I suppose "some" could mean more than two, but I thought it safe to minimize the number. Cheers! Troy From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Wed Jan 17 10:36:26 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:36:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP Message-ID: TCLUG OT Readers: If you think I am being a jerk, I do apologize, but I really do want to hear complaints about ISPs (yes, including Qwest) in these little OT email conversations we have on the half year. Performance can change over time, and I want to know who to recommend to those who ask. I really hope no one will "STFU" because someone else doesn't want to hear about it. Right now I give Qwest a "OK" rating, despite my own negative experiences with them, because they seem to do alright by many of their customers. I do prefer places like Speakeasy and IP House because they consistently emphasize customer service, and that makes a big difference even when they can't fix things for you. Thanks, Troy From auditodd at comcast.net Wed Jan 17 13:25:23 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:25:23 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas Message-ID: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Hey all, My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to vendors and them them return. I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx flunky. Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an Otterbox cases. Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated. -- ========== Todd Young From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com Wed Jan 17 14:46:21 2007 From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:46:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com> On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 07:25:23PM +0000, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: > My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to > vendors and them them return. Why not just burn to CD/DVD? Media are cheap and sturdy. -- trammell at el-swifto.com 9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58 FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5 Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG) Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Wed Jan 17 14:59:49 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:59:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"? We've used them in the past with up to 1 Gbyte. Relatively cheap, easy to ship, worked great. Larry Pint > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of auditodd at comcast.net > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:25 PM > To: TCLUG > Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas > > Hey all, > > My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to > vendors and them them return. > > I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with > a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx > flunky. > > Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an > Otterbox cases. > > Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated. > > -- > ========== > Todd Young > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 17 15:11:28 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:11:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com> References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> <20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, John J. Trammell wrote: > On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 07:25:23PM +0000, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: >> My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to >> vendors and them them return. > > Why not just burn to CD/DVD? Media are cheap and sturdy. If they have 500 GB of data, it will fill more than 100 DVDs. If the client needs to make some changes to the data and return it, it will be a huge effort. The USB drive would be much better for such uses. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 17 15:10:09 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:10:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Larry R. Pint wrote: > I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"? We've used them > in the past with up to 1 Gbyte. Relatively cheap, easy to ship, worked > great. A DVD holds more and costs much less. Mike From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 15:19:56 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:19:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com> Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of tapes back and forth? - Joey On 1/17/07, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: > > Hey all, > > My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to > vendors and them them return. > > I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with > a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx > flunky. > > Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an > Otterbox cases. > > Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated. > > -- > ========== > Todd Young > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070117/e255a528/attachment.htm From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Wed Jan 17 16:34:53 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:34:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Open Document Format in Minnesota? Message-ID: I thought this might be on topic for TCLUG because it might possibly put Linux in better standing as a desktop client: http://ros.leg.mn/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0176.0.html&session=ls85 From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Jan 17 16:58:56 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:58:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701172258.l0HMwut22000@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Equipment Sale All the computers listed are solid machines. My wife wants me to reduce my "inventory". HP Omnibook XE4400S 1.8GHz 1GB RAM (2x512 Corsair) 20GB hard drive DVD-ROM and Floppy built in Linksys Wi-Fi PCMCIA 802.11b/g Windows XP Pro Product Key Eddie Bauer laptop bag $500 - OBO ==== HP Omnibook 6000 600MHz 256MB of RAM 20GB hard drive DVD-ROM and Floppy modules Docking station with CD-R and NIC (uses standard power cord) Laptop bag Win98 Product Key $170 - OBO ==== HP Omnibook XE3-GC 800MHz 256MB of RAM 20GB hard drive DVD-ROM and floppy Port replicator w/power supply Laptop bag Win98 Product Key $150 - OBO ==== Intergraph GL2 Dual P2-400MHz 512MB of ECC RAM Sony CD-R $50 - OBO ==== Zip Drives and Discs 3-250MB drives 2-100MB drives 1-250MB disc 19-100MB discs $40 - OBO ==== Baystack 24 port managed switch $20 - OBO ==== Palm 3e w/cradle $10 - OBO ==== IBM 300GL (2 of these) Type 6282 Pentium-233MHz 128MB of RAM 1GB hard drive CDROM & Floppy 2-USB1 ports 2-10/100 NICs Fully functional, perfect for a firewall! $10 each - OBO ==== FREE! - HP ScanJet 5100C - HP ScanJet 4P - Generic Pentium-200MHz PC Seller Email address: auditodd at comcast dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From auditodd at comcast.net Wed Jan 17 17:09:07 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (Todd Young) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:09:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net> Joey Rockhold wrote: > Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of > tapes back and forth? > > - Joey > > On 1/17/07, *auditodd at comcast.net * > > wrote: > > Hey all, > > My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to > vendors and them them return. > > I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that > comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the > average UPS/FedEx flunky. > > Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an > Otterbox cases. > > Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated. > > -- > ========== > Todd Young Tape drive would work, but then you have to worry about whether the receiving party has the right format. Not to mention that getting data copied to a tape would be quite the "fun" experience. OtterBox didn't have anything that would fit an external USB drive, but I did find a company called S3 that has similar products that would work. That combined with a generic enclosure and Western Digital drives will probably be our resolution. Western Digital has a great head park feature that if the drive loses power it uses energy from the spindle to park the heads. -- Todd Young From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 18:35:41 2007 From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:35:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Job - Information Security Specialist Message-ID: <914f813c0701171635u65f24840yc4091b8c60e50431@mail.gmail.com> LarsonAllen currently has a job position open. Please email rromes at larsonallen.com with your resume and contact information to apply. -John Job Description ? Information Security Specialist Intern LarsonAllen is currently looking for an Information Security Specialist Intern to join the Information Security Services Group (ISSG) in our Minneapolis office. The Information Security Specialist will provide technical security consulting to clients, as well as develop and maintain the ISSG network infrastructure. The majority of the work consists of testing remote and local networks for security vulnerabilities. This person performs as a significant member of the ISSG Team to provide quality customer service. * Perform network security assessments. * Project Team Participation Responsibilities * Application Software Selection Responsibilities * Application Software Implementation Responsibilities * Application Software Support Responsibilities *** This opportunity will lead to a full-time position for the right person. *** For consideration we require: B.S. or an associate degree from a two-year college focused on IT/IS/MIS or computer science A GPA of 3.0 or above in your major, and a copy of your transcript. A minimum of 6 months experience in a support or development role, related to application development, desktop, server, or network infrastructure Preference will be given to applicants with experience in some or all of the following: Experience with Cisco IOS software, Cisco hardware, and/or similar experience in network infrastructure hardware and software Experience with Linux operating systems Experience with Microsoft Windows operating systems, servers, and networking Programming and/or Web application development From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Jan 18 02:04:30 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 02:04:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Larry R. Pint > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:00 PM > > > I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"? We've > used them > in the past with up to 1 Gbyte. Relatively cheap, easy to > ship, worked > great. > > Larry Pint I've seen sizes up to 8gb offered. Also, I got a USB adapter for SD digital camera cards for $.99 plus S&H off ebay. The adapter claims to be unlimited except by the card, so over 4gb isn't hard to do. Rotating things are much more vulnerable in shipping, but can have much larger capacities. Chuck From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 07:45:52 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:45:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas In-Reply-To: <45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net> References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com> <45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45AF7A10.3080308@gmail.com> > work. That combined with a generic enclosure and Western Digital drives > will probably be our resolution. Western Digital has a great head park > feature that if the drive loses power it uses energy from the spindle to > park the heads. > Western Digital also has a great feature of planned obsolescence. That is, after they turn 1.5 (+/- .5) years old, they just stop working one day. At least that has been my experience, with about 6 different Western Digital drives in the last couple of years. The 250 GB capacity is the worst of them all, but I've had a few other capacity drives fail as well. Its also convenient for them that their warranty was only 1 year in the era when they built all of those junk drives. I think that the warranty is longer now - not that that helps you get your data back when the thing fails. If you are mailing things back and forth, I would try to stick to camera cards or USB sticks, if their capacity is great enough. Dan -- **************************** Daniel Armbrust Biomedical Informatics Mayo Clinic Rochester daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu http://informatics.mayo.edu/ From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Thu Jan 18 11:14:30 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:14:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 Message-ID: I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1. I have studied the mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this. Mention was made of VisionFS and samba. I don't think VisionFS is installed on the Unixware system. I can get samba to share to Unixware directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not figured out how to do the other way around. I've done this from our RH Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware. Can anybody offer some pointers to how this can be done? Thanks, Larry Pint -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070118/ecfcc379/attachment.htm From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Thu Jan 18 12:25:06 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:25:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems Message-ID: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> A little off-topic, this is more a h/w issue. I have a desktop PC with an ABIT board - KW7 to be specific. I had a Seagate ST380013AS (80GB) running on SATA fine for about 2 years then it started going bad. I was running Winders so I did the old check/repair disk, happened again so I figured I'd try Kubuntu since I felt more comfortable troubleshooting hardware issues using Linux. Problems later on - would only mount the / file system read only. Ran tune2fs to continue on errors and e2fsck badblock checks - found problems, still wouldn't boot out of read only. I bought two Western Digital WD1600JS (160GB) drives hoping to setup a RAID, but now I can't even get one of the drives recognized by the BIOS. In addition now I can't plug in my failing drive and have it recognized by the BIOS. I can't imagine that I somehow trashed all three drives with static, I'm good about handling drives, done this many times. Nothing I can do anymore will get any one of the 3 SATA drives I have recognized. I thought maybe I fudged a BIOS setting to I cleared CMOS and started over, no luck. Is it possible the onboard SATA controller is toast? Am I using this mobo at risk if so? I was thinking of trying a PCI SATA controller. Unfortunately I don't have another system with SATA to test... Any thoughts? On this same box I noticed a bad memory address using memtest86+ so I pulled that stick. But that was before all these problems. If memtest86 reports a single address failure is the stick pretty much useless? Or can it be used (at risk)? Thanks, Josh From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Thu Jan 18 12:42:07 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:42:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless when I put the new ones on it hosed it? Josh On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:25:06 -0600 Josh Trutwin wrote: > A little off-topic, this is more a h/w issue. > > I have a desktop PC with an ABIT board - KW7 to be specific. I had a > Seagate ST380013AS (80GB) running on SATA fine for about 2 years > then it started going bad. I was running Winders so I did the old > check/repair disk, happened again so I figured I'd try Kubuntu since > I felt more comfortable troubleshooting hardware issues using > Linux. Problems later on - would only mount the / file system read > only. Ran tune2fs to continue on errors and e2fsck badblock checks - > found problems, still wouldn't boot out of read only. I bought two > Western Digital WD1600JS (160GB) drives hoping to setup a RAID, but > now I can't even get one of the drives recognized by the BIOS. In > addition now I can't plug in my failing drive and have it recognized > by the BIOS. > > I can't imagine that I somehow trashed all three drives with static, > I'm good about handling drives, done this many times. > > Nothing I can do anymore will get any one of the 3 SATA drives I > have recognized. I thought maybe I fudged a BIOS setting to I > cleared CMOS and started over, no luck. Is it possible the onboard > SATA controller is toast? Am I using this mobo at risk if so? I was > thinking of trying a PCI SATA controller. Unfortunately I don't > have another system with SATA to test... > > Any thoughts? > > On this same box I noticed a bad memory address using memtest86+ so > I pulled that stick. But that was before all these problems. If > memtest86 reports a single address failure is the stick pretty much > useless? Or can it be used (at risk)? > > Thanks, > > Josh > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From florin at iucha.net Thu Jan 18 13:02:47 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:02:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote: > Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the > new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - > doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless > when I put the new ones on it hosed it? The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground. Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25; this might be an easy way to test the drives. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070118/67fd1643/attachment.pgp From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Thu Jan 18 13:20:26 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:20:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:02:47 -0600 florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote: > > Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that > > the new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps > > - doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive > > unless when I put the new ones on it hosed it? > > The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the > controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground. I had hoped as much. I would expect backwards compatibility, but good to know forward should work too. > Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25; this might be an > easy way to test the drives. I ordered one on-sale from mwave - wanted a 4-channel model at 3gbps - should arrive tomorrow so hopefully I can see if that's the issue or not. I am starting to miss my old SCSI system. Josh From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Jan 18 14:08:16 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:08:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net> Josh, you've tried to do something like this? # mount -o remount,rw / Right? -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Thu Jan 18 15:19:12 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:19:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070118151912.733a777a.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:08:16 -0600 Chad Walstrom wrote: > Josh, you've tried to do something like this? > > # mount -o remount,rw / > > Right? Yeah, back when I was actually able to mount the drive I did. I booted into a live CD and used tune2fs -c continue (I think) to turn off the read-only on error and then mounted the drive rw on /mnt and removed the errors=ro from /mnt/etc/fstab but every reboot was the same thing - mounted read only. But that was back when I could have the system even recognize the sucker, which is no longer the case. Thanks, Josh From dean at ripperd.com Thu Jan 18 17:48:37 2007 From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:48:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> Message-ID: <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com> Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote: > >> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the >> new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - >> doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless >> when I put the new ones on it hosed it? >> > > The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the > controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground. > > Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25; this might be an > easy way to test the drives. > > florin > Typically this is true, however there are a few SATA-1 controllers which are known to not auto-negotate properly. One that comes to mind is the VIA 8237. -Dean From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Thu Jan 18 18:25:56 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:25:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com> Message-ID: <20070118182556.f43d3a2a.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:48:37 -0600 Dean wrote: > > The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the > > controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common > > ground. > > > > Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25; this might be an > > easy way to test the drives. > > > > florin > > > Typically this is true, however there are a few SATA-1 controllers > which are known to not auto-negotate properly. One that comes to > mind is the VIA 8237. Which happens to be what this ABIT board has for SATA. I have a PCI controller on the way. Still not sure why my other drive isn't being recognized. Josh From wdtj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 18 20:30:14 2007 From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:30:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20070119023014.33792.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com> There is a known problem with some older (SATA 1.5) controllers and the newer (SATA 3) WD spread sprectrum drives. You have to strap the HD to disable the spread spectrum in order for the drives to be seen by the BIOS. Sounds a lot like what you were having. Not sure why the old drives no longer work. http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1337&p_created=1112379341&p_sid=UPAiJ1si&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEmcF9wcm9kcz0yMDMmcF9jYXRzPTE4MyZwX3B2PTEuMjAzJnBfY3Y9MS4xODMmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9mbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1 Florin Iucha wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote: > Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the > new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - > doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless > when I put the new ones on it hosed it? The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground. Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25; this might be an easy way to test the drives. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list --- Wayne Johnson, | There are two kinds of people: Those 3943 Penn Ave. N. | who say to God, "Thy will be done," Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, (612) 522-7003 | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070118/daddc03e/attachment.htm From tclug at natecarlson.com Thu Jan 18 23:17:28 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:17:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems In-Reply-To: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Josh Trutwin wrote: > Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the new > drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - doesn't > explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless when I put > the new ones on it hosed it? Check to see if the drives have a compatibility jumper for 1.5gbps. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From tclug at beitsahour.net Fri Jan 19 11:05:02 2007 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:05:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 References: Message-ID: Larry R. Pint writes: > ? HTML content follows ? > > I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro > computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1.? I have studied the > mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this.? > Mention was made of VisionFS and samba.? I don't think VisionFS is > installed on the Unixware system.? I can get samba to share to Unixware > directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not > figured out how to do the other way around.? I've done this from our RH > Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware.? Can anybody offer > some pointers to how this can be done? under linux it would be: mount -t smbfs -o username= //server/share /mountpoint of course this is for linux, the same did not work under MacOS, the syntax was not quite right and i suspect that that would be the case as well under UnixWare. do a locate for smbfs and see if there is a manpage specific for it. From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Fri Jan 19 11:56:44 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:56:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've searched for "mountsmb", "smbmount", "smbfs" and several other logical words with no luck. I've searched using "find -name" (the system doesn't have "locate" either) and in "man". I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer. I can't imagine that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft invested in SCO. Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Munir Nassar > Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:05 AM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 > > Larry R. Pint writes: > > > ? HTML content follows ? > > > > I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro > > computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1.? I have studied the > > mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this. > > Mention was made of VisionFS and samba.? I don't think VisionFS is > > installed on the Unixware system.? I can get samba to share to Unixware > > directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not > > figured out how to do the other way around.? I've done this from our RH > > Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware.? Can anybody > offer > > some pointers to how this can be done? > > under linux it would be: > mount -t smbfs -o username= //server/share /mountpoint > > of course this is for linux, the same did not work under MacOS, the syntax > was not quite right and i suspect that that would be the case as well > under > UnixWare. > > do a locate for smbfs and see if there is a manpage specific for it. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From sac at cheesecake.org Fri Jan 19 12:20:19 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:20:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 at 11.56.44 -0600, Larry R. Pint wrote: > I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least > make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer. I can't imagine > that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft > invested in SCO. It couldn't possibly be because UnixWare sucks, of course. In other news, I'm convinced that Linux intentionally does not allow one (or at least make it easy) to write to NTFS volumes. I can't imagine that this would have anything to do with the salary that OSDL pay Linus. Also, I'd have used smbclient from the beginning and wouldn't have even bothered googling to see if smbmount supports UnixWare because, well, it's UnixWare and it sucks. -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From florin at iucha.net Fri Jan 19 13:21:29 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:21:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1 In-Reply-To: <20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org> References: <20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <20070119192129.GA6053@iucha.net> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:20:19PM -0600, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 at 11.56.44 -0600, Larry R. Pint wrote: > > I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least > > make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer. I can't imagine > > that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft > > invested in SCO. > > It couldn't possibly be because UnixWare sucks, of course. In other news, > I'm convinced that Linux intentionally does not allow one (or at least > make it easy) to write to NTFS volumes. I can't imagine that this would > have anything to do with the salary that OSDL pay Linus. Huh? The code is halfway there: enable CONFIG_NTFS_RW and trash your partitions at will. Linus is not responsible for the [lack of] progress on implementing the functionality, the NTFS maintainer is Anton Altaparmakov. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070119/bc021984/attachment.pgp From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Jan 19 16:36:57 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701192236.l0JMavh29745@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell 1650 Dual 1.3Ghz 2GB Ram 3 73GB 10k or 3 36GB 15k drives (your choice) Dual power supplies. $500obo Justin at otnix.com Seller Email address: justin at 90tq dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 19:58:37 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:58:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, thanks. Mikhail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070119/7591175d/attachment.htm From florin at iucha.net Fri Jan 19 20:57:35 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:57:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, > thanks. Do you know any other programming languages? Why do you want to learn C++ for? If you are a beginner, you might want to start with something more gentle, like Python. Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start. Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also fairly good. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070119/d6675704/attachment.pgp From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 21:31:35 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:31:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help In-Reply-To: <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net> References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net> Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com> i already have learned python and this is mostly a hobby but i also use it in high school we had an intro to computer science class and then there's c++ and java classes that i will be taking On 1/19/07, Florin Iucha wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was > > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to > start, > > thanks. > > Do you know any other programming languages? Why do you want to learn > C++ for? If you are a beginner, you might want to start with > something more gentle, like Python. > > Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start. > Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also > fairly good. > > florin > > -- > Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. > http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFFsYUfND0rFCN2b1sRAgdJAJ4ivMG7XrQ9POAY6pTqcvpiusbCBQCePvmw > UhuK1Xzoa0ZKQAICqUhPm8Y= > =BTyR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070119/ddf8a5b7/attachment.htm From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 22:29:54 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:29:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net> <6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > i already have learned python and this is mostly a hobby but i also use it > in high school we had an intro to computer science class and then there's > c++ and java classes that i will be taking > > > On 1/19/07, Florin Iucha wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > > > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was > > > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to > start, > > > thanks. > > > > Do you know any other programming languages? Why do you want to learn > > C++ for? If you are a beginner, you might want to start with > > something more gentle, like Python. > > > > Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start. > > Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also > > fairly good. I learned C++ on my own from Ivor Horton's Beginning C++. I can't really say that it was a great book, but I guess it was good enough to give me a start. There are probably much probably better ones. But I didn't really learn C++ until i started working on open-source projects. So if you really want to learn I'd highly recommend getting involved with a project of some sort after you pick up the basics. Also, there's a free C++ book available online here: http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html I can't vouch for its quality, as I've never read it, but it might be worth checking out. -- jonner From leif.t.johnson at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 13:19:27 2007 From: leif.t.johnson at gmail.com (Leif Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:19:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel. It's a pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book. I guess it depends on what style of book you are looking for. leif On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, > thanks. > Mikhail > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070120/1c6b46eb/attachment.htm From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 14:43:55 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:43:55 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help In-Reply-To: References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701201243w397d6e1blb9da6139a2a2ef6c@mail.gmail.com> i like the kind of book where you can use the examples to learn as well as the text because its easier for me that way On 1/20/07, Leif Johnson wrote: > > I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel. It's a > pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book. I guess it > depends on what style of book you are looking for. > > leif > > On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov wrote: > > > > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was > > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, > > thanks. > > Mikhail > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070120/21525b7b/attachment.htm From rclark at lakesplus.com Mon Jan 22 09:44:01 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:44:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? Message-ID: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a bit annoying. System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks with yum. I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is gone. I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, relog in and then everything is fine. Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. Randy From rclark at lakesplus.com Mon Jan 22 09:45:07 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:45:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware Message-ID: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware? Like an x86 type system? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Thoughts or suggestions welcome. Randy From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Jan 22 09:56:24 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:56:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> Randy Clarksean wrote: > Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware? Like an > x86 type system? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Thoughts or suggestions > welcome. My co-worker, a rabid Solaris fan, runs Solaris 10 on his workstation. I'm rather indifferent. ;-) -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From srcfoo at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 09:59:33 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:59:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <579c6fd30701220759s2613cfc1k6ceb7530b694fb13@mail.gmail.com> On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > bit annoying. > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > with yum. > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > gone. > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > relog in and then everything is fine. > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > Randy Sorry if this is painfully obvious, but have you tried a different mouse? Try a different kind of mouse. i.e. switch between usb and ps/2 If the mouse is wireless, switch to a wired mouse. Most of these problems in my experience are caused by bad hardware and not the software. From jkjones at tcq.net Mon Jan 22 10:00:33 2007 From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig Jones) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:00:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net> Randy Clarksean wrote: > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > gone. > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > relog in and then everything is fine. > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > Randy > > Hardware? You've tried another mouse? Actually, I think I may have seen this with KDE/Kubuntu. Mouse hangs up and won't move or click. But it's happened so rarely that I never had the chance to look into it further. Kraig From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 10:25:06 2007 From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:25:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net> Message-ID: I had this problem with Ubuntu. Something with the newer kernel and the bios. Once I updated the bios everything worked fine. Try reverting to an older kernel for now unless you can find updated bios. Benjamin From jack at jacku.com Mon Jan 22 10:44:43 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (jack at jacku.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:44:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <13044.70.59.124.241.1169484283.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com> > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > bit annoying. > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > with yum. > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > gone. > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > relog in and then everything is fine. > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > Randy > > > I used to see this kind of thing happen with certain mice, certain distributions and GPM (General Purpose Mouse control for console apps). If gpm is running it can screw up X. That said I haven't seen this anytime recently and I thought the problem was corrected. Also do you use a KVM switch? Those are known to have issues with mouse lockup or disappearance but mostly after switching between systems. I have one that I can get to reset if I unplug the mouse and plug it back in. My $0.02, Jack From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 11:12:57 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:12:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > Randy Clarksean wrote: > >> Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware? Like an x86 >> type system? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Thoughts or suggestions welcome. > > My co-worker, a rabid Solaris fan, runs Solaris 10 on his workstation. > I'm rather indifferent. ;-) I'm not using it on PC. I have been running it on a SPARC machine for more than a decade and I also am using Linux on a number of different systems. Solaris is a very solid OS -- I have not rebooted my Solaris 8 machine in 5 years except when there was a power failure. Still, I don't like Solaris very much. The reason is that Linux has been really taking over in computing and everything is ready to compile and run under Linux. Linux uses GNU tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools. Because of this, I wouldn't bother with Solaris. The only reason I still use it at all is because I have the machine running, doing web, email, etc., and it's a pain to move everything to a different machine. Meanwhile, I do all my number crunching work and most other unixy stuff on Linux boxes. On the other hand, if you just want to study Solaris and learn about it, maybe for professional reasons, why not? It's very widely used. Mike From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 11:12:36 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:12:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > bit annoying. > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > with yum. > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > gone. > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > relog in and then everything is fine. > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > Randy I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm not sure if it's the same issue. It doesn't happen very often, but it's very annoying when it does. I notice it most often on the web browser. When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them (i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL. Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either. It seems like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from firing. The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console (e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the mouse will work normally again. You might try that next time it happens to you... Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to find a proper solution. -- jonner From robbyt at robbyt.net Mon Jan 22 12:02:11 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1f663090701221002y4793ec16rd4824e42c062709c@mail.gmail.com> On 1/22/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > > bit annoying. > > > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > > with yum. > > > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > > gone. > > > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > > relog in and then everything is fine. > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > > Randy > honestly this sounds to me like a video driver issue. Read up on your driver's options, such as swcursor and if you're using a closed-driver, try the open alternative. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070122/a729a4f8/attachment.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 12:00:19 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:00:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Open source calendaring Message-ID: Is anyone using this?: http://www.opengroupware.org/en/applications/index.html We've been using Meeting Maker and I use a Palm device, so I would really like to switch to an open source solution. Mike From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Jan 22 12:04:33 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:04:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Now that I work over at Onvoy, I get plenty of exposure to Solaris. In fact, at the U, I had to manage an aging E4500 running Solaris 2.6. Recent experience with Solaris 10 on SPARC hardware has shown me that it's not quite polished. We continue to have race conditions with sendmail on Solaris 10 while under botnet attack from Poland. So much so, that we have to remove the machine from our mail server lineup between the hours of 00:00 and 03:30. That does not give me much confidence in Solaris 10, honestly. Solaris 9 hums along happily enough. > The reason is that Linux has been really taking over in computing > and everything is ready to compile and run under Linux. Linux uses > GNU tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools. Because of > this, I wouldn't bother with Solaris. "Better" is a very subjective opinion. I like GNU tools. I'm familiar with GNU tools. I can hack on GNU tools and not worry about Copyright infringement. Therefore, I think GNU tools are better. Feature-wise, GNU tools mature quickly. However, GNU tools may not target hardware-specific management and optimizations that you gain with vendor tools. One of the goals with GNU tools is to be cross-platform. Solaris is one of the most prominent platforms on which GNU tools run. If you go to http://www.sunfreeware.com, you will not many of the more popular GPL'ed software available there. So, I disagree that Linux is taking off JUST because of pre-compiled GNU tools. I believe Linux is taking off for a number of reasons: * The Price is Right -- Can't beat free * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this one.) * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's aren't exactly public.) * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages The more I support Solaris, the less I dislike it. The company seems to take a very Debian-like approach when providing patches for installed, stable software rather than forcing newer versions of the software to be installed. They could use some help in determining exactly when reboots are necessary, for example. (i.e. Their installation/patching scripts could be a bit more intelligent.) No, I think one of the reasons Solaris isn't as popular amongst desktop consumers is because until recently, they didn't have an x86 product. Even so, they're likely to get more Solaris admins than general consumers. They weren't (aren't) popular amongst smaller businesses or smaller-budget groups because the hardware was (is) quite expensive to run. Their support of x86 platform and release of OpenSolaris might change some of that. I think it's too hard to predict, really. Linux has a lot of momentum, and companies like Solaris are finally starting to react appropriately. We shall see... -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From timo at bolverk.net Mon Jan 22 12:01:11 2007 From: timo at bolverk.net (Tim Oudin) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:01:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <21620273.41169488871449.JavaMail.root@zimbra> ----- Randy Clarksean wrote: > Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware? Like an x86 > type system? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Thoughts or suggestions > welcome. I've run both a SPARC and x86 virtual machine as home. Once I got past the headache of getting networking functional on the vm I had no unpleasant experiences x86 related. -- timo From robbyt at robbyt.net Mon Jan 22 12:13:40 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:13:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Open source calendaring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f663090701221013p27e32ea5nc419d8e94a72c9b8@mail.gmail.com> On 1/22/07, Mike Miller wrote: > > Is anyone using this?: > > http://www.opengroupware.org/en/applications/index.html > > We've been using Meeting Maker and I use a Palm device, so I would really > like to switch to an open source solution. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > we tried using opengroupware/egroupware for a couple things here and found it to be quite crusty.. I recommend: http://sourceforge.net/projects/webcalendar/ or just setup zimbra OSS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070122/1ef7d20e/attachment.htm From tj at kewlness.net Mon Jan 22 12:16:43 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:16:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> Just my 2 cents. I've used Solaris, and while there isn't anything wrong with it, I find the lack of decent GNU developer tools out of the box to be a definate annoyance. As for Solaris not being rebooted in years, that's really not a good description of stability anymore. I've run FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux at one time or another - as well as dabbled with VMS/VAX (ugh) and Tru-64. They are all pretty stable. Once you get one in place, they can all have uptimes stretching into years. Not to sound contrary, but I'd rather be forced to reboot now and then. The reasons are two: every now and then they change the kernels, so upgrades require a reboot (just to make sure it's clean) - and the second reason, which we can argue until the end of time - I have yet to meet a single OS in existance that hasn't leaked memory due to poor daemon designs or lazy programmers writing crappy apps. This reflects nothing upon the OS. It's the applications or daemons that force a reboot. If you are concerned about leaving Solaris, and losing your drive slicing, try the Linux LVM2 on Linux 2.6, it's not exactly the same, but you'll be right at home. On the topic of X and a dead mouse, I'd bet when you upgraded one or both of two things happened. The package provider for the kernel didn't update or install the dynamic driver (modules) dependencies so that the proper mouse drivers load on startup. You can probably correct this by listing the modules you want to force load in /etc/modules. The second possibility is that when you upgraded, it probably decided to be "helpful" and overwrote your X config file. You can create your own by shutting down X, and then running the -configure option on the X server to create a new file to match your hardware, ie Xorg -configure. Then move it into place over the old file when you are satisfied with it. I _always_ backup my X configs against the fact that upgrades do strange things. This is especially the case if you are playing with Beryl/Compiz/AIGLX/Xgl. Personally, I'd be happier if they finished making the hardware support on X more generic, so that you wouldn't have the majority of these configuration issues. Fortunately, they have recognized the wisdom of that, and are moving in that direction, abeit slowly. A third, and perhaps less common problem is that the gpm mouse daemon can cause some X installs to stop using the mouse. It's rather unlikely these days though, unless some device packager was an idiot, and didn't configure the /dev nodes properly. Laters! -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070122/4f8bfeda/attachment-0001.vcf From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 12:51:17 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:51:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: >> The reason is that Linux has been really taking over in computing and >> everything is ready to compile and run under Linux. Linux uses GNU >> tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools. Because of this, I >> wouldn't bother with Solaris. > > "Better" is a very subjective opinion. I like GNU tools. I'm > familiar with GNU tools. I can hack on GNU tools and not worry about > Copyright infringement. Therefore, I think GNU tools are better. That's not how it is with me. I discovered that Solaris fmt was deleting international characters like ?, ?, etc., from my files, which I feel is totally unacceptable. GNU fmt didn't do that. Both sed and awk under Solaris failed to handle long lines, and sed would screw up without returning an error -- this is a fairly famous bug in Solaris sed that you might want to read about. The GNU versions of both sed and awk (a.k.a., gawk) work great even with very long lines. I also discovered that the Solaris version of sort was much slower than the GNU version. This happened because a friend believed that his high-end PC running Linux would out-perform a Solaris box that cost 4 times as much money and he wanted to prove it. Some of our colleagues were saying that Solaris and SPARC would be faster when a job required a lot of I/O. So we decided to sort a file of several million lines to see which mahcine was fastest. The Linux machine was much faster. Then I realized that I could compile GNU sort under Solaris and see if that was the cause of the difference. It turned out that GNU sort was far faster than Solaris sort. I don't remember the numbers now but it was a remarkable difference. GNU tools have continued to improve and outdo the Solaris versions in many ways. It's not just what I know and like. In fact, I probably still have more experience in Solaris than in Linux. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 12:55:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:55:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > So, I disagree that Linux is taking off JUST because of pre-compiled GNU > tools. Did someone say that it was? It wasn't me. > I believe Linux is taking off for a number of reasons: > > * The Price is Right -- Can't beat free Solaris is also free: http://www2.sun.de/dc/forms/reg_us_2211_391.jsp I just ordered one the other day. They wrote back to tell me that it should be arriving soon. > * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this > one.) > * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's > aren't exactly public.) > * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages And also, there is a great mass of software all ready to run on Linux and it is easy to compile it on Linux. For me this is very important. > No, I think one of the reasons Solaris isn't as popular amongst desktop > consumers is because until recently, they didn't have an x86 product. They had it back in the 90s for sure, but I don't think they were giving it away until recently. Mike From tclug at natecarlson.com Mon Jan 22 13:29:40 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:29:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this > one.) > * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's > aren't exactly public.) > * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages You could always run this: http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 13:53:09 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote: > You could always run this: > > http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki > > Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel. :) Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it. Is the Solaris kernel now distributed under a GPL-compatible license? What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu? Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 13:58:19 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:58:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse) In-Reply-To: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> References: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > As for Solaris not being rebooted in years, that's really not a good > description of stability anymore. I've run FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux > at one time or another - as well as dabbled with VMS/VAX (ugh) and > Tru-64. They are all pretty stable. Once you get one in place, they > can all have uptimes stretching into years. > > Not to sound contrary, but I'd rather be forced to reboot now and then. > The reasons are two: every now and then they change the kernels, so > upgrades require a reboot (just to make sure it's clean) - and the > second reason, which we can argue until the end of time - I have yet to > meet a single OS in existance that hasn't leaked memory due to poor > daemon designs or lazy programmers writing crappy apps. This reflects > nothing upon the OS. It's the applications or daemons that force a > reboot. I agree -- at least for me, not-rebooting-ever isn't all that important. I like the fact that Linux is moving forward. I didn't reboot Solaris because I didn't upgrade it. I didn't upgrade it because I was concerned that it would be a hassle. So the fact that I didn't reboot doesn't really reflect well on Solaris -- it isn't just because of stability! Also, we've been running a Linux box for 3 years or so and it has only been rebooted for power outages and maybe once for a kernel upgrade. So Linux is very stable too. Mike From tclug at natecarlson.com Mon Jan 22 14:03:42 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:03:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it. Is the Solaris kernel now > distributed under a GPL-compatible license? Not yet, although I've heard rumors that they are discussing dual-licensing it with GPLv3. > What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu? Well, the Solaris kernel, if you're into such a thing. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Mon Jan 22 14:08:25 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:08:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example, you can run GNU on MS Windows. ----- Original message ----- From: "Mike Miller" To: "Nate Carlson" Cc: "tclug" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote: > You could always run this: > > http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki > > Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel. :) Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it. Is the Solaris kernel now distributed under a GPL-compatible license? What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu? Mike _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From webmaster at mn-linux.org Mon Jan 22 14:36:56 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:36:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701222036.l0MKauG08725@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want for Free Subject: PCI Modem Wanted I've given away a pile of these over the years. Now I need one for a neighbor. win-modem is fine. I can pick-up in the Apple Valley area. Thank you! Seller Email address: pclinux at charter dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 15:02:22 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:02:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote: >> What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu? > > Well, the Solaris kernel, if you're into such a thing. :) Nice answer. Let me rephrase that: What would be the advantage of using a Solaris kernel instead of a Linux kernel? You don't have to have an answer for that, of course. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 22 15:04:20 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote: > It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example, > you can run GNU on MS Windows. It isn't technically necessary, but I prefer to work on a non-proprietary system to the extent possible. I still use Windows, but I don't like it! ;-) So until Solaris is under a GPL-compatible license, I'll prefer the Linux kernel. Mike From thecubic at thecubic.net Mon Jan 22 15:04:28 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse) In-Reply-To: References: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net> We (at work) have a Solaris machine that just rebooted that was up 1400+ days. Of course, as soon as it did, it unleashed hell and the iPlanet server wouldn't start. So, the machine with the highest uptime is now a linux server (RedHat 7.2) with 1350+ days. Especially now with the DST 2007 patching (which is not optional), a lot of bad problems are showing up on Solaris boxes that had been festering. The package management and integrated LVM on Linux help out a lot in contrast. In fact, the DST patching for Linux (packaged and simple) puts the others to shame. I don't share Chad's experience in that supporting it makes me dislike it less. I would say that that's true though for AIX in my sense. On Monday 22 January 2007 13:58, Mike Miller wrote: > I agree -- at least for me, not-rebooting-ever isn't all that important. > I like the fact that Linux is moving forward. I didn't reboot Solaris > because I didn't upgrade it. I didn't upgrade it because I was concerned > that it would be a hassle. So the fact that I didn't reboot doesn't > really reflect well on Solaris -- it isn't just because of stability! > Also, we've been running a Linux box for 3 years or so and it has only > been rebooted for power outages and maybe once for a kernel upgrade. So > Linux is very stable too. > > Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070122/c3498b5a/attachment.pgp From tclug at natecarlson.com Mon Jan 22 15:09:40 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:09:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > Nice answer. Let me rephrase that: What would be the advantage of > using a Solaris kernel instead of a Linux kernel? You don't have to > have an answer for that, of course. I'll let a Solaris zealot (if we have any on the list) answer. I haven't used it in ages, so I can't really say. Although ZFS does look sweet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Mon Jan 22 15:57:59 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:57:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com> Not technically necessary but not legally necessary either. I'm of the same opinion as you regarding proprietary software. ----- Original message ----- From: "Mike Miller" To: "Isaac Atilano" Cc: "tclug" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote: > It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example, > you can run GNU on MS Windows. It isn't technically necessary, but I prefer to work on a non-proprietary system to the extent possible. I still use Windows, but I don't like it! ;-) So until Solaris is under a GPL-compatible license, I'll prefer the Linux kernel. Mike From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com Tue Jan 23 13:57:11 2007 From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:57:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com> A pertinent article re Solaris v Linux: Seven ways Solaris can beat Linux Sun needs to make a splash if it wants to win back its Unix OS market share by Neil McAllister / InfoWorld / January 22, 2007 http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/01/22/04OPopenent_1.html 1. Raise Solaris' profile. 2. License OpenSolaris under the Gnu GPL. 3. Ship a complete, gorgeous desktop system. 4. Come up with a killer app. 5. Offer hardware support that's second to none. 6. Become the OS of choice for developers. 7. Virtualization all the way. From brockn at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 14:20:23 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:20:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation? Message-ID: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com> I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition or file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this? Brock -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070123/48bb44d9/attachment.htm From thecubic at thecubic.net Tue Jan 23 14:32:53 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:32:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation? In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com> References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net> The old-style swap partition could only use 128M per partition (32 partitions total) and 2G total. Only applies to 2.2 or earlier. -Dave On Tuesday 23 January 2007 14:20, Brock Noland wrote: > I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition or > file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this? > > Brock -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070123/e38a48c8/attachment.pgp From brockn at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 14:48:36 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:48:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation? In-Reply-To: <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com> <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: <741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com> This explains it. I was taking a linux test and it said: What do you need if you want 512MB of swap space? - A 512MB free partition (or 512MB free space on an existing filesystem) - 4 free partitions with .... - .... I clicked A without even reading the rest as it seemed obvivious and got it wrong. Must have been really out of date as I started using Linux in the late versions of 2.2 and that was a LONG time ago... Brock On 1/23/07, Dave Carlson wrote: > > The old-style swap partition could only use 128M per partition (32 > partitions > total) and 2G total. Only applies to 2.2 or earlier. > > -Dave > > On Tuesday 23 January 2007 14:20, Brock Noland wrote: > > I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition > or > > file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this? > > > > Brock > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070123/d64d3a03/attachment.htm From srcfoo at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 15:43:56 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:43:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation? In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com> References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com> <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net> <741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <579c6fd30701231343u377d823dt6904d8f6f31d587@mail.gmail.com> On 1/23/07, Brock Noland wrote: > This explains it. I was taking a linux test and it said: > > What do you need if you want 512MB of swap space? > > - A 512MB free partition (or 512MB free space on an existing filesystem) > - 4 free partitions with .... > - .... > > I clicked A without even reading the rest as it seemed obvivious and got it > wrong. Must have been really out of date as I started using Linux in the > late versions of 2.2 and that was a LONG time ago... > > Brock WOW! What test was this? Did you take it recently? Was it for a certification or just for the fun of it? Eric From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 23 15:52:47 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:52:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com> References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net> <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Dean.Benjamin at mm.com wrote: > A pertinent article re Solaris v Linux: > > Seven ways Solaris can beat Linux > Sun needs to make a splash if it wants to win back its Unix OS market share > by Neil McAllister / InfoWorld / January 22, 2007 > http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/01/22/04OPopenent_1.html > > 1. Raise Solaris' profile. > 2. License OpenSolaris under the Gnu GPL. > 3. Ship a complete, gorgeous desktop system. > 4. Come up with a killer app. > 5. Offer hardware support that's second to none. > 6. Become the OS of choice for developers. > 7. Virtualization all the way. Interesting, but as I read it, they have already lost. Why would they want to do '1' if they are doing '2'? There will be no money in it for them. I would avoid Solaris because they don't have '5,' but why will they get us to '5' if they've done '2'? Again, there will be no money in it. If they had reacted appropriately about 8 years ago they would have had a chance on '6,' but what is going to happen now to make '6' possible? When Sun produces '4,' will it be open/free or will it be proprietary? If it is open/free how will it help Solaris more than it helps Linux? -- won't it be ported immediately to Linux? And if it is not open/free and it runs only on Solaris, it had better be absolutely amazing or no one will want to deal with Solaris just to get this one app. I think Sun cares more about their hardware at this point. Why don't they focus on making their hardware work well with Linux? Most IT pros know Linux and the community will appreciate Sun's efforts. Mike From rclark at lakesplus.com Tue Jan 23 16:32:25 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:32:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Tried your suggestion ... did not work ... mouse would still not "click" on anything. Randy On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 11:12 -0600, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > > bit annoying. > > > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > > with yum. > > > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > > gone. > > > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > > relog in and then everything is fine. > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > > Randy > > I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm > not sure if it's the same issue. It doesn't happen very often, but > it's very annoying when it does. I notice it most often on the web > browser. When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them > (i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the > focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL. > Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either. It seems > like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from > firing. The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console > (e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the > mouse will work normally again. You might try that next time it > happens to you... Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to > find a proper solution. From cdf123 at cdf123.net Tue Jan 23 16:48:45 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:48:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security Message-ID: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net> Hi all, I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble googling for. I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module. Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"? I've got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't want to require a key for everyone for login. Thanks all Chris Frederick From rwh at visi.com Tue Jan 23 16:45:13 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:45:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security In-Reply-To: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net> References: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net> Message-ID: <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com> Its been a while since I looked at PAM, but if you don't mind doing a little hacking there is the pam_require module that can be used to force specific group membership. It seems like it should be easy enough for it to negate that test. Then you could make that 'sufficient' so that non-admins pass and then fall through to the pam_usb to validate the admin users. Like I said, its been a while but it should be workable. --rick http://www.splitbrain.org/projects/pam_require Chris Frederick wrote: > Hi all, > > I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble > googling for. I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still > log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module. > > Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your > password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"? I've > got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't > want to require a key for everyone for login. > > Thanks all > > Chris Frederick > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From cdf123 at cdf123.net Tue Jan 23 17:46:39 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:46:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security In-Reply-To: <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com> References: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net> <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com> Message-ID: <45B69E5F.3080502@cdf123.net> No hacking needed Since version 0.3 you may let in everybody __except__ the named group or user. This example keeps out members of the lusers group: account required pam_unix.so account required pam_require.so !@lusers Thanks, I'll give this a shot Chris rwh wrote: > Its been a while since I looked at PAM, but if you don't mind doing a > little hacking there is the pam_require module that can be used to force > specific group membership. It seems like it should be easy enough for it > to negate that test. Then you could make that 'sufficient' so that > non-admins pass and then fall through to the pam_usb to validate the > admin users. > > Like I said, its been a while but it should be workable. > > --rick > > http://www.splitbrain.org/projects/pam_require > > > Chris Frederick wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble >> googling for. I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still >> log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module. >> >> Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your >> password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"? I've >> got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't >> want to require a key for everyone for login. >> >> Thanks all >> >> Chris Frederick >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From admin at lctn.org Wed Jan 24 14:07:02 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:07:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question Message-ID: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> I have a mailscanner server being overwhelmed, so I am setting up a new box that has postfix installed. I have been running 100% sendmail up to this point, and have never worked with postfix. I am going through a howto right now, but having trouble with errors like this: NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from p50897187.dip.t-dialin.net[80.137.113.135]: 554 : Relay access denied; from= to= proto=SMTP helo= I either have the syntax wrong somewhere, or misunderstanding what is required. In sendmail I simply set up the mailertable, access, and relay-domains. I need the new server to act as a mailscanner, and relay for 3 domains. Anyone have a quick answer? Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From chewie at wookimus.net Wed Jan 24 14:39:35 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:39:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 02:07:02PM -0600, admin at lctn.org wrote: > NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from p50897187.dip.t-dialin.net[80.137.113.135]: > 554 : Relay access denied; > from= to= > proto=SMTP helo= > > I either have the syntax wrong somewhere, or misunderstanding what > is required. In sendmail I simply set up the mailertable, access, > and relay-domains. I need the new server to act as a mailscanner, > and relay for 3 domains. Anyone have a quick answer? Is this an incoming relay or an outgoing relay (define mailscanner). There is a "relay_domains" keyword as well as "mydestination" and "mynetworks". Also, check out *_restriction variables. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From admin at lctn.org Wed Jan 24 14:59:09 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:59:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> Message-ID: <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> > Is this an incoming relay or an outgoing relay (define mailscanner). > There is a "relay_domains" keyword as well as "mydestination" and > "mynetworks". Also, check out *_restriction variables. It is an incoming relay. I was aware of the relay_domains tag, and thought I had it right, but am still getting the errors I mentioned. In /etc/postfix I set up transport, and relay_domains. In transport my syntax is: .domain.com smtp:[x.x.x.x] In relay_domains I have the domains allowed as: domain.com RELAY -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ddezurik at yahoo.com Wed Jan 24 15:40:35 2007 From: ddezurik at yahoo.com (Damien DeZurik) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:40:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help Message-ID: <79159.53697.qm@web37208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In college, we used, "Object-Oriented Programming in C++" (third-edition) by Robert Lafore. It covered a good spectrum from beginner concepts to STL, templates, object oriented programming and design, data structures, etc.... I am not sure how well respected it is in the professional community but it got me started. I am looking at it now, it has quite a bit of full examples. Another way that may be useful to see examples and, at the same time, get some GUI experience with C++ is to play around with qt (trolltech.com). They have plenty of partial and full examples on the site. If working with qt, you may want to check out Kdevelop and QTdesigner together as an IDE (if you haven't already). Or use vi. Works either way. $0.02 Damien ----- Original Message ---- From: Mikhail Skobov To: Leif Johnson Cc: tclug Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 2:43:55 PM Subject: Re: [tclug-list] c++ help i like the kind of book where you can use the examples to learn as well as the text because its easier for me that way On 1/20/07, Leif Johnson wrote: I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel. It's a pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book. I guess it depends on what style of book you are looking for. leif On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov < russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote: Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, thanks. Mikhail _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070124/9ee0b47c/attachment.htm From baz at winternet.com Wed Jan 24 19:10:53 2007 From: baz at winternet.com (Bryan A. Zimmer) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:10:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008601c7401d$a9633970$4900a8c0@localnet> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joey Rockhold To: auditodd at comcast.net Cc: TCLUG Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Request for ideas Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of tapes back and forth? - Joey On 1/17/07, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: Hey all, My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to vendors and them them return. I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx flunky. Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an Otterbox cases. Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated. -- ========== Todd Young _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070124/99252e27/attachment-0001.htm From josh at joshwelch.com Wed Jan 24 19:46:57 2007 From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:46:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)) In-Reply-To: <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Quoting Dave Carlson : > We (at work) have a Solaris machine that just rebooted that was up > 1400+ days. > Of course, as soon as it did, it unleashed hell and the iPlanet server > wouldn't start. So, the machine with the highest uptime is now a linux > server (RedHat 7.2) with 1350+ days. > > Especially now with the DST 2007 patching (which is not optional), a lot of > bad problems are showing up on Solaris boxes that had been festering. The > package management and integrated LVM on Linux help out a lot in contrast. > In fact, the DST patching for Linux (packaged and simple) puts the others to > shame. > > I don't share Chad's experience in that supporting it makes me dislike it > less. I would say that that's true though for AIX in my sense. > This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often, preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down time. Things crop up at reboot that you had forgot about, or put off, or didn't know about in the first place, when you reboot a server. The longer you go between rebooting a server the less likely you are to remember what you had to do to fix it the last time :). Josh From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Jan 25 01:28:20 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:28:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)) In-Reply-To: <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> References: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net> <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Message-ID: <20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net> Josh Welch wrote: > This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often, > preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down > time. Actually, we test reboot servers before patches that require reboots (i.e. new kernel). That way, if the server fails to recover from the test reboot, there are bigger problems to solve (i.e. disk failures). You don't end up wasting hours applying patches only to have the server never come back to life. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Jan 25 01:30:32 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:30:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> admin at lctn.org wrote: > In relay_domains I have the domains allowed as: > > domain.com RELAY Um... relay_domains is simply a list of domains you relay. It's not the same as Sendmail's access table specification. If you are specifying relay_domains as a file, be sure to only have a single domain name on each line. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From admin at lctn.org Thu Jan 25 07:23:11 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:23:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> > Um... relay_domains is simply a list of domains you relay. It's not > the same as Sendmail's access table specification. If you arepossibility > specifying relay_domains as a file, be sure to only have a single > domain name on each line. Thanks. I am going to continue to go through the howto today. I simply need to relay all incoming mail to the destination mail servers, without getting relaying denied errors. The problem I have, is the posibility of losing email while testing the settings. Is there a way to test the config without that risk? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 07:45:41 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:45:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com> Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers? Seems to be a huge outage, their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through them is inaccessible right now. -- Donovan Niesen From obelin23 at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 07:55:49 2007 From: obelin23 at gmail.com (Charlie O) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux Message-ID: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we have on to DVD. I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with Linux? And 2 side questions - how much memory do I need to be able to do this? - is there anything else I need? A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as soon use Linux. Thanks, Charlie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070125/503fdb2c/attachment.htm From tclug at natecarlson.com Thu Jan 25 08:14:04 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:14:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Donovan Niesen wrote: > Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers? Seems to be a huge outage, > their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through > them is inaccessible right now. I've got a few sites hosted there that are working fine. I know they have had some huge outages over the last couple weeks, however. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Jan 25 09:51:03 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net> admin at lctn.org wrote: > Thanks. I am going to continue to go through the howto today. I simply > need to relay all incoming mail to the destination mail servers, without > getting relaying denied errors. The problem I have, is the posibility of > losing email while testing the settings. Is there a way to test the config > without that risk? soft_bounce = yes Instead of issuing 500 errors, all errors will be in the 400 class. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From rwh at visi.com Thu Jan 25 09:18:10 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux In-Reply-To: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com> I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual format conversions :-) --rick Charlie O wrote: > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes > we have on to DVD. > > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. > > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work > with Linux? > > And 2 side questions > - how much memory do I need to be able to do this? > - is there anything else I need? > > A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as > soon use Linux. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From jimdscott at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 10:31:00 2007 From: jimdscott at gmail.com (jim scott) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:31:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux In-Reply-To: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com> References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com> Message-ID: On 1/25/07, rwh wrote: > > I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to > dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes > later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual > format conversions :-) > > --rick > > The Hauppauge cards are well-supported in Linux. A PVR-150 would do the trick. I have done some VHS to DVD transfers. It takes a long time. The playback and capture is all in real time. So a 2 hour video takes 2 hours to capture. If you want to do any editing, then you have the editing time plus the re-encoding time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070125/23343a2d/attachment.htm From swaite at sbn-services.com Thu Jan 25 10:58:00 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:58:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux In-Reply-To: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com> References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com> Message-ID: In the past years I have used ATI All-in-Wonder (AIW) cards for this purpose. In the past few years though they have made ViVo (Video In/Video Out) standard on most cards, so you do not necessarily require a AIW/TV Tuner card. I have never had much luck with seperate cards, like the ones from Pinnacle, doing this. Right now I have a AIW that I use as a DVR to record stuff, but that is usally lower quality as it is meant to view on my laptop. Memory has not been the bottleneck as much as disk speed. Ideally you would want a 10/15k SCSI, but that is not practical for most people. In that case at least a 7200 SATA. As CPUs get faster, obviously that meant more data could be processed, but it all gets negated once you hit the slower hard drives. Years back I had no problem CPU wise capturing higher quality video, but the drives just could not keep up and it would end up either failing or the video would skip. Since most of what I wanted was of no real value I ended up just using Windows Media Encoder to do WMV which was fine for my needs. Capturing tapes on the other hand you may want a higher quality though. As for memory, most applications of course we use memory for the buffer, so ideally the more the better. Again it all depends on how you do this. Some programs that allow you to adjust the buffer will obviously benefit from more memory. On the other hand many programs out there are just so basic that it really does not matter. Ideally what Rick has suggested is one of the best methods. Let the dedicated device to all the processing. Then you can transfer the files to a computer and edit them into DVD movie format to your liking. I do not know what Linux offerings there are, but I do know that the latest versions of Nero for Windows offers a really good program for making your own DVDs. My wife brought back a bunch of home movies in VCD format that I was easily able to transfer to DVD using this method. Using Nero's Vision program it will automatically make the menu's and everything for you. You can even capture using this program, but again it is an issue of drive speed=performance. I would suggest taking a look at www.digital-digest.com and their forums. They have quite a few FAQs and links that could answer any questions regarding software, CODECs, formats, etc. Sean Waite -----Original Message----- From: rwh To: Charlie O Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:10 -0600 Subject: Re: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual format conversions :-) --rick Charlie O wrote: > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes > we have on to DVD. > > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. > > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work > with Linux? > > And 2 side questions > - how much memory do I need to be able to do this? > - is there anything else I need? > > A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as > soon use Linux. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070125/7a7965d8/attachment.htm From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu Thu Jan 25 10:54:43 2007 From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:54:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux In-Reply-To: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070125105443.A17014@pchelka.space.umn.edu> On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:55:49AM -0600, Charlie O wrote: > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we > have on to DVD. > > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. > > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with > Linux? Another way to go with this is to use a camcorder. If you have access to a camcorder with firewire or USB out and RCA inputs (or whatever you need to connect to your VCR), then you can connect your VCR to the camcorder, and the firewire/USB to the computer. I have done it this way, and it works nicely, and you avoid having to buy a capture card. Of course capture cards are cheaper than camcorders, so this might not be any help ;). -- Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ Never laugh at live dragons | From john.meier at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 11:40:03 2007 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:40:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <65293fcc0701250940i650c5b69yb9561628ca6d22fb@mail.gmail.com> On 1/25/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers? Seems to be a huge outage, > their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through > them is inaccessible right now. My two are up. I did report a compromise of my account and/or the server that hosts my account the other day - some odd files showed up in my directory structure - a couple we're even owned by root! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070125/1ac503f1/attachment.htm From admin at lctn.org Thu Jan 25 17:25:04 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:25:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <2192.64.8.148.4.1169767504.squirrel@lctn.org> Got it working. I had to add the networks for the schools under mynetworks. That with relay_domains, and transport configured got things working. Thanks for the help! -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From josh at joshwelch.com Thu Jan 25 20:01:12 2007 From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:01:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)) In-Reply-To: <20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net> <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net> <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> <20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070125200112.15kqvxpl554440wc@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Quoting Chad Walstrom : > Josh Welch wrote: >> This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often, >> preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down >> time. > > Actually, we test reboot servers before patches that require reboots > (i.e. new kernel). That way, if the server fails to recover from the > test reboot, there are bigger problems to solve (i.e. disk failures). > You don't end up wasting hours applying patches only to have the > server never come back to life. > That's a hell of a sensible policy. Josh From jus at krytosvirus.com Thu Jan 25 21:33:32 2007 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:33:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question In-Reply-To: <6500326.1169767811881.JavaMail.root@sniper39> References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net> <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net> <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net> <6500326.1169767811881.JavaMail.root@sniper39> Message-ID: <3001.216.17.75.74.1169782412.squirrel@www.krytosvirus.com> > Got it working. > > I had to add the networks for the schools under mynetworks. That with > relay_domains, and transport configured got things working. > > Thanks for the help! > Adding IP's to mynetworks bypasses the relay check and just allows them full access to relay to any domain http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html#mynetworks The way to best help would be if you provided the output of postconf -n From danyberg at gmail.com Thu Jan 25 23:55:10 2007 From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:55:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 25, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com> > > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600 > From: "Charlie O" > Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Message-ID: > <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we > have on to DVD. > > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. > > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with > Linux? > > And 2 side questions > - how much memory do I need to be able to do this? > - is there anything else I need? > > A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as > soon > use Linux. > > Thanks, > > Charlie > ------------------------------ The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500. I understand some people have gotten this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them. Though I was mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ . The card works great in Windows, but only fair in linux. But it's also many years old now. Dave <>< -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070125/d3f314bf/attachment.htm From tommyj27 at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 00:10:10 2007 From: tommyj27 at gmail.com (Thomas Johnson) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:10:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server, mgetty doesn't pick up? Message-ID: <1469cda20701252210m71b58794m13e61664774c3650@mail.gmail.com> I've been playing around with the idea of setting up a modem on my home server to dial in and get access to home and the internet (via bluetooth/cell, yes I know how slow it is). The server in question is running Ubuntu 6.06 and I followed the guide at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=150339. Thus far I have been mostly unsuccessful at even getting the modem to pick up, when I dial in I hear a click (presumably the modem picking up) followed by another click several seconds later (hanging up?). the mgetty log file shows activity that doesn't look correct, but I'm no expert so I really don't know what I'm looking at. The only success I've had at getting the two modems to talk to each other was when I happened to have a 'cat /dev/ttyS0' running in another terminal, the modems negotiated and the client tried to authenticate but got nowhere. I'm not sure what isn't set up right with mgetty, it looks pretty straight-forward, mgetty handles the connection, then fires up pppd to handle the authentication. I am copying my log output from mgetty and hoping that someone here has some experience that they haven't forgotten since dial-up became yesterday's news. 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 check for lockfiles 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 checklock: stat failed, no file 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 locking the line 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 lock made 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 lowering DTR to reset Modem 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 tss: set speed to 57600 (10001) 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 tio_set_flow_control( HARD ) 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read: 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d] 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 got: ATQ0V1H0[0d] 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found ** 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 send: AT[0d] 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 got: [0d] 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: OK[0a]AT[0d] 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found ** 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a] 01/25 23:40:05 yS0 removing lock file 01/25 23:40:05 yS0 waiting... 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 select returned 1 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 checking lockfiles, locking the line 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 lock made 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: waiting for ``RING'' 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 got: [0d][0a]NO CARRIER 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: found action string: ``NO CARRIER'' 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: rc=-1, drn=0 01/25 23:45:29 ##### failed A_FAIL dev=ttyS0, pid=4763, caller='none' -- 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 check for lockfiles 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 checklock: no active process has lock, will remove 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 locking the line 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 lock made 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 lowering DTR to reset Modem 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tss: set speed to 57600 (10001) 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tio_set_flow_control( HARD ) 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read: 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 got: ATQ0V1H0[0d] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found ** 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 send: AT[0d] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 got: [0d] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: OK[0a]AT[0d] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found ** 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a] 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 removing lock file 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting... From auditodd at comcast.net Fri Jan 26 08:18:58 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:18:58 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server, mgetty doesn't pick up? Message-ID: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Haven't tried this myself yet, but it looked interesting: http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_dialin_server -- ========== Todd Young -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Thomas Johnson" > I've been playing around with the idea of setting up a modem on my > home server to dial in and get access to home and the internet (via > bluetooth/cell, yes I know how slow it is). The server in question is > running Ubuntu 6.06 and I followed the guide at > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=150339. > > Thus far I have been mostly unsuccessful at even getting the modem to > pick up, when I dial in I hear a click (presumably the modem picking > up) followed by another click several seconds later (hanging up?). the > mgetty log file shows activity that doesn't look correct, but I'm no > expert so I really don't know what I'm looking at. > > The only success I've had at getting the two modems to talk to each > other was when I happened to have a 'cat /dev/ttyS0' running in > another terminal, the modems negotiated and the client tried to > authenticate but got nowhere. > > I'm not sure what isn't set up right with mgetty, it looks pretty > straight-forward, mgetty handles the connection, then fires up pppd to > handle the authentication. I am copying my log output from mgetty and > hoping that someone here has some experience that they haven't > forgotten since dial-up became yesterday's news. > > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10 > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 check for lockfiles > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 checklock: stat failed, no file > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 locking the line > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 lock made > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR > 01/25 23:40:03 yS0 lowering DTR to reset Modem > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 tss: set speed to 57600 (10001) > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 tio_set_flow_control( HARD ) > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read: > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d] > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 got: ATQ0V1H0[0d] > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found ** > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 send: AT[0d] > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 got: [0d] > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: OK[0a]AT[0d] > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found ** > 01/25 23:40:04 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a] > 01/25 23:40:05 yS0 removing lock file > 01/25 23:40:05 yS0 waiting... > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 select returned 1 > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 checking lockfiles, locking the line > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 lock made > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: waiting for ``RING'' > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 got: [0d][0a]NO CARRIER > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: found action string: ``NO CARRIER'' > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 wfr: rc=-1, drn=0 > 01/25 23:45:29 ##### failed A_FAIL dev=ttyS0, pid=4763, caller='none' > > -- > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10 > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 check for lockfiles > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 checklock: no active process has lock, will remove > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 locking the line > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 makelock(ttyS0) called > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0' > 01/25 23:45:29 yS0 lock made > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 lowering DTR to reset Modem > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tss: set speed to 57600 (10001) > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 tio_set_flow_control( HARD ) > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read: > 01/25 23:45:30 yS0 send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 got: ATQ0V1H0[0d] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found ** > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 send: AT[0d] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for ``OK'' > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 got: [0d] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: OK[0a]AT[0d] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found ** > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a] > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 removing lock file > 01/25 23:45:31 yS0 waiting... > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From robbyt at robbyt.net Fri Jan 26 11:08:57 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:08:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 25, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com> References: <5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f663090701260908j5ef02b2bg8179cbd1d7a2d430@mail.gmail.com> On 1/25/07, swede wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600 > > From: "Charlie O" < obelin23 at gmail.com> > > Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Message-ID: > > < 72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241 at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes > > we > > have on to DVD. > > > > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that. > > > > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work > > with > > Linux? > > > > And 2 side questions > > - how much memory do I need to be able to do this? > > - is there anything else I need? > > > > A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as > > soon > > use Linux. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Charlie > > ------------------------------ > > > > > The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing > video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500. I understand some people have gotten > this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them. Though I was > mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS > http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ . The card works great in Windows, but only > fair in linux. But it's also many years old now. > > Dave > This is something that linux can very easily handle. It seems a bit of a mis-managmeent of resources to run a windows computer specificly for a task that can be completed easily and with better quality results in Linux. http://www.pchdtv.com/ $130 for the 5500 card. When you're done ripping VHS tapes, you can use the card for a HDTV mythtv box. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070126/8e095573/attachment.htm From danyberg at gmail.com Fri Jan 26 21:14:06 2007 From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:14:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Video capture Message-ID: <5daafeb10701261914gfd83f3fl35ec7487ec5001c6@mail.gmail.com> > > > > The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing > > video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500. I understand some people have gotten > > this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them. Though I > was > > mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS > > http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ . The card works great in Windows, but > only > > fair in linux. But it's also many years old now. > > > > Dave > > > > This is something that linux can very easily handle. It seems a bit of a > mis-managmeent of resources to run a windows computer specificly for a > task > that can be completed easily and with better quality results in Linux. > > http://www.pchdtv.com/ > $130 for the 5500 card. > When you're done ripping VHS tapes, you can use the card for a HDTV mythtv > box. > Looks good, when I get a few bucks I'll get one. Thanks. Dave <>< -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070126/ac6ba56a/attachment.htm From tommyj27 at gmail.com Sat Jan 27 12:39:56 2007 From: tommyj27 at gmail.com (Thomas Johnson) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:39:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server, mgetty doesn't pick up? In-Reply-To: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> References: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1469cda20701271039h46155b7av478cf6893579fa32@mail.gmail.com> I finally got this working, but I had to compile mgetty on Slackware before I found the problem with Ubuntu. As it turns out, Ubuntu wasn't sending the correct init string to the modem by default. I set the init-chat variable in mgetty.config and things started working right away. For anyone interested, I replied to the howto with my solution in a little more detail: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2071089#post2071089 On 1/26/07, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: > Haven't tried this myself yet, but it looked interesting: > http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_dialin_server From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 12:55:40 2007 From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:55:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3948c70701281055wefb56ftaee3c4b7b0b5dee0@mail.gmail.com> My comments on my recent DSL search in Columbia Hts (next to Mpls). On 1/15/07, Sean Waite wrote: > > > I have been calling around to different services without luck so far trying > to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the I also wanted to install DSL. I'm changing from comcast to dsl for the lower per month price, albeit at a lower speed. I've given comcast about 2,291 dollars and 25 cents and I figure that is enough. I was looking for 1.5M down and 600 up(or whatever) with stand-alone dsl , no voice line bundle. I use VoIP for voice. All of these deals expire Feb 17 2007 when the qwest dsl line promotion expires. I'm sure then will be another promotion shortly after that. visi: $27 + 19.95(isp) = $46.95 iphouse: $27(qwest) + 19.95 (isp) = $46.95 speakeasy: $55.96/mo qwest charges included. usfamily.net $27(qwest) +$7.99(isp, prepaid annually) = $34.99 This is metered access where if you transfer more then 10gig in 30 days you get your ports cut off and pooled with other high bandwidth users. qwest.net $32 basic? They quote this on the front page and don't give an option for it later on. MSN is the only "choice." qwest choice dsl deluxe with msn premium $36.99 The qwest MN ISP list is here: http://www.qwest.com/dsl/inc/isp_list/MN.html Good Luck, -Matt Johnson From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Jan 28 20:39:52 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:39:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701290239.l0T2dq607661@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Twin Pentium 3 Twin Pentium 3 running @ 500mhz for sale. 768mb pc133 ram 2x Scsi Drives: one 9gb, and one 16gb. Scsi Cd-Rom Netgear Nic Scsi Controller is onboard, Model AIC-7895/2940W $130.00 or best offer, Cash Only. Thanks, Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From tmarble at info9.net Mon Jan 29 07:04:12 2007 From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:04:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Open Document Format in Minnesota? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45BDF0CC.9040000@info9.net> Troy.A Johnson wrote: > I thought this might be on topic for TCLUG because it might > possibly put Linux in better standing as a desktop client: > > http://ros.leg.mn/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0176.0.html&session=ls85 Indeed... Let's ask our friends and families to contact their legislators and make this law! http://blogs.sun.com/tmarble/entry/minnesota_will_remember Regards, --Tom From tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org Mon Jan 29 10:28:23 2007 From: tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org (tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:28:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Forward of moderated message Message-ID: An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Michael Goddard" Subject: February Users Group Meeting - Any Updates? Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:04:43 -0600 Size: 2879 Url: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/474c6bb7/attachment.eml From robbyt at robbyt.net Mon Jan 29 18:47:56 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:47:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? Message-ID: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> Just browsing around and came across this: http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a midnight release of Vista this evening. Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy. Any one interested in helping out? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/0dac6b05/attachment.htm From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 19:22:10 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:22:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com> time and place and ill see if i can On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar wrote: > > Just browsing around and came across this: > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a > midnight release of Vista this evening. > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of > adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista > enemy. Any one interested in helping out? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/8fca04a9/attachment.htm From silwenae at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 19:46:11 2007 From: silwenae at gmail.com (Paul Cutler) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:46:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com> <4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com> I know the Best Buy store in Richfield is opening at midnight. I can't make it tonight though. --Paul On 1/29/07, Mikhail Skobov < russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote: > time and place and ill see if i can > > On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar < robbyt at robbyt.net> wrote: > > > Just browsing around and came across this: > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > > > > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having > > a midnight release of Vista this evening. > > > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of > > adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista > > enemy. Any one interested in helping out? > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/04668e24/attachment.htm From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Mon Jan 29 19:55:40 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:55:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com> <4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com> <4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701291755h5f4dbcf8u3e9841ce1e97133d@mail.gmail.com> i can't make it to that one i live in eden prairie On 1/29/07, Paul Cutler wrote: > > I know the Best Buy store in Richfield is opening at midnight. I can't > make it tonight though. > > --Paul > > On 1/29/07, Mikhail Skobov < russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > time and place and ill see if i can > > > > On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar < robbyt at robbyt.net> wrote: > > > > > Just browsing around and came across this: > > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > > > > > > > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be > > > having a midnight release of Vista this evening. > > > > > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of > > > adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista > > > enemy. Any one interested in helping out? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/e730d3e3/attachment.htm From sos at zjod.net Mon Jan 29 20:09:14 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:09:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net> Rob Terhaar wrote: > > Just browsing around and came across this: > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a > midnight release of Vista this evening. > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy. > Any one interested in helping out? You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer on www.gnu.org's home page. From auditodd at comcast.net Mon Jan 29 20:39:07 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:39:07 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? Message-ID: <013020070239.494.45BEAFCB0007BC63000001EE22007621940B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> If you wish to protest the DRM and closed source software, I'm all for it. BUT.... Please do so in a non-confrontational manner. Getting into people's faces with a rabid-dog mentality will do NOTHING for Linux or the Open Source movement. Also remember that there will be people attending the conference at the Minneapolis Convention Center that are going there to see not only Vista, but also Office2007 and the new Exchange Server release. Maybe not because they want to, but because they have to deal with Windows at work and therefore have to know what is going on in the Microsoft world. Be informative, not confrontational. Just my $0.02 -- ========== Todd Young -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Rob Terhaar" > Just browsing around and came across this: > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en > -US > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a > midnight release of Vista this evening. > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy. > Any one interested in helping out? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Rob Terhaar" Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:55:24 +0000 Size: 2194 Url: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/171d4d33/attachment-0001.eml From sulrich at botwerks.org Mon Jan 29 20:36:00 2007 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:36:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net> Message-ID: On 1/29/07, Steve Siegfried wrote: > Rob Terhaar wrote: > > > > Just browsing around and came across this: > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a > > midnight release of Vista this evening. > > > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc > > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy. > > Any one interested in helping out? > > You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer > on www.gnu.org's home page. > and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point home. -- steve ulrich From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Jan 29 21:58:02 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:58:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, steve ulrich wrote: > and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes > quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point > home. What does that mean? This quote?... "Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We do what we do because we love Unix." http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html Mike From sos at zjod.net Tue Jan 30 00:47:34 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:47:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200701300647.l0U6lYGY032488@zjod.net> steve ulrich wrote: > > On 1/29/07, Steve Siegfried wrote: > > Rob Terhaar wrote: > > > > > > Just browsing around and came across this: > > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US > > > > > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a > > > midnight release of Vista this evening. > > > > > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc > > > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy. > > > Any one interested in helping out? > > > > You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer > > on www.gnu.org's home page. > > > > and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes > quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point > home. Thanks for the reference to a quote you couldn't be bothered to actually quote. But Steve? Since you're obviously a Theo De Raadt fan, why are you even here? This is a Linux list. Shouldn't you be annoying folks on a BSD list somewhere? Instead, you're here, turning an obscure De Raadt/Torvalds pissing contest into an even more obscure AOLesque "Me Too!". Well good for you, Steve; you're the smartest guy in the room. Now please go away. -Steve (who-was-only-trying-to-provide-some-resource-material) Siegfried From thecubic at thecubic.net Tue Jan 30 02:36:12 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:36:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net> FUD. I like how that article gives BSD the credit for Solaris even though Solaris has been SVR4-derived since 1992. That plus de Raadt talking out of his ass equals a Forbes article, I guess... -Dave On Monday 29 January 2007 21:58, Mike Miller wrote: > http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-c >z_dl_0616theo.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/2181387a/attachment.pgp From rhubarbpie at poetworld.net Tue Jan 30 08:31:38 2007 From: rhubarbpie at poetworld.net (rhubarbpie at poetworld.net) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:31:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? Message-ID: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to pay a Windows tax. I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks without windows. They also offer the option of no OS. I have three questions: * Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com? As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse. * Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax? * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain Windows credit from MS? I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to jump through hoops. From jeruvin at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 09:13:09 2007 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:13:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0701300713u1bd2fe9bne7ae7c031fb7015a@mail.gmail.com> I have been keeping http://www.system76.com/ in my list to check out when I replace my laptop. A SASE envelope will get you some free "powered by ubuntu" stickers. I have no experience with them besides getting my Ubuntu stickers. Jason On 1/30/07, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net wrote: > > > I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to > pay a Windows tax. I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks > without windows. They also offer the option of no OS. I have three > questions: > > * Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com? > As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse. > > * Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax? > > * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain > Windows credit from MS? I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to > jump through hoops. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/02bf4ef4/attachment.htm From sos at zjod.net Tue Jan 30 09:35:39 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:35:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <200701301535.l0UFZdGh009844@zjod.net> In part, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net posted to the tclug list: > > * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain > Windows credit from MS? I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to > jump through hoops. > I've heard and read of people doing this. Universally, the experience is described as time consuming, often frustrating and fraught with pitfalls, any one of which might disqualify you from getting the refund. So jumping through hoops might be understating the process a bit. Further, when you finally get the refund, it isn't anywhere near what you'd expect to pay for a retail copy of Windows. Assuming you actually elect this route, a good tutorial on how to get the refund from Dell (but probably applicable to other vendors, too) can be found at: http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237 However, other vendors may not be as accommodating: http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html Hope this helps, -S From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 09:49:47 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:49:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net wrote: > > I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to > pay a Windows tax. I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks > without windows. They also offer the option of no OS. I have three > questions: > > * Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com? > As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse. > > * Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax? > > * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain > Windows credit from MS? I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to > jump through hoops. > One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let them know that you have no need for windows. http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd -- jonner From tclug at natecarlson.com Tue Jan 30 10:45:38 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (tclug at natecarlson.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:45:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as > well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or > not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series > through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any > cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let > them know that you have no need for windows. > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy it with Windows than without. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 10:56:35 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:56:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Dave Carlson wrote: > FUD. I like how that article gives BSD the credit for Solaris even > though Solaris has been SVR4-derived since 1992. That plus de Raadt > talking out of his ass equals a Forbes article, I guess... > > -Dave > > On Monday 29 January 2007 21:58, Mike Miller wrote: > http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html Just so you know -- I sent that URL but that doesn't mean I agree with what the interviewee was saying. I'm quite happy with Linux so far. If FreeBSD is better in some way, I may never know that from experience. Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels would mean much to me as a user. Mike From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 11:17:33 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:17:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as > > well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or > > not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series > > through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any > > cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let > > them know that you have no need for windows. > > > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd > > I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy > it with Windows than without. You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system? Because I was just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly the same price with and without windows. The one big difference seemed to be that not all of the same options were available depending on whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... Don't ask me why...) -- jonner From tclug at natecarlson.com Tue Jan 30 11:20:37 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:20:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system? Because I was > just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly > the same price with and without windows. The one big difference seemed > to be that not all of the same options were available depending on > whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options > (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of > processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... > Don't ask me why...) Yeah, they were identical. They had a pile of promo's that only were only applied to the Windows laptop. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 11:30:49 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:30:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com wrote: >> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: >>> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as >>> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or >>> not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series >>> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any >>> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let >>> them know that you have no need for windows. >>> >>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd >> >> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy >> it with Windows than without. > > You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system? Because I was > just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly > the same price with and without windows. The one big difference seemed > to be that not all of the same options were available depending on > whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options > (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of > processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... > Don't ask me why...) Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with Microsoft. Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements? It could work like this: Microsoft can make their system run slower so that people are motivated to buy new hardware. Microsoft doesn't have much competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their code for speed. Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck? Related point: Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly. When Vista comes out, what is its competition? Well, it's mostly XP. Wouldn't it be nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great? Sure. They knew this day would come when they made XP. Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great. Same for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft. When you have a monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that you can sell upgrades more readily. Mike From drue at therub.org Tue Jan 30 11:34:01 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:34:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: <20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:56:35AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels > would mean much to me as a user. I shouldn't, but I just can't resist responding to this.. FreeBSD isn't just a different kernel. It's like this: Linux is kernel + apps (mostly GNU). FreeBSD has a concept of a base system - so the OS itself isn't just a kernel, but a kernel, plus the bare bones of a working OS (and very little if any GNU in base). In other words, they distinguish between a base system, and 3rd party applications. Some things like sendmail and bind are included in base, but for most applications you install from the package/ports system (i hear gentoo's package system is quite similar). This lends to a very consistent and reliable core OS. As well, freebsd is very strict about the filesystem hierarchy. 3rd party applications *never* install their configs to /etc. They belong in /usr/local/etc. This separation, applied to all files and applications on the system, is one of the best userland reasons to favor freebsd over linux, imho. Dan (flame away..) From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Jan 30 11:49:29 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:49:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com> I think saying that Microsoft is making their products crappy on purpose is giving them too much credit. When you're working with software that is so overly complex and bloated, it'd be a miracle if it weren't so crappy. A highlight: these system call diagrams. http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311 ----- Original message ----- From: "Mike Miller" To: "TCLUG List" Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:30:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with Microsoft. Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements? It could work like this: Microsoft can make their system run slower so that people are motivated to buy new hardware. Microsoft doesn't have much competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their code for speed. Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck? Related point: Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly. When Vista comes out, what is its competition? Well, it's mostly XP. Wouldn't it be nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great? Sure. They knew this day would come when they made XP. Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great. Same for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft. When you have a monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that you can sell upgrades more readily. Mike _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 11:52:26 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:52:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system? Because I was > > just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly > > the same price with and without windows. The one big difference seemed > > to be that not all of the same options were available depending on > > whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options > > (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of > > processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... > > Don't ask me why...) > > Yeah, they were identical. They had a pile of promo's that only were only > applied to the Windows laptop. Interesting. When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I believe). And I added identical with-windows and without-windows notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the cart. So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the full $350 rebate was applied. Without the rebate, they would have been exactly the same price. -- jonner From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Tue Jan 30 11:57:09 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:57:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <45BF3268.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> Dell: The land of psychotic technology prices. >>> On 1/30/2007 at 10:45 AM, in message , wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: >> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as >> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or >> not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series >> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any >> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let >> them know that you have no need for windows. >> >> > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s= > bsd > > I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy > it with Windows than without. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | > | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From tclug at natecarlson.com Tue Jan 30 12:13:34 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:13:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > Interesting. When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on > lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I > believe). And I added identical with-windows and without-windows > notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to > the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in > the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the > cart. So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the full > $350 rebate was applied. Without the rebate, they would have been > exactly the same price. They had also discounted the wireless card, the Cingular wireless card, and various other parts only on the Windows one.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From rwh at visi.com Tue Jan 30 12:46:27 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:46:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > >> On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com wrote: >>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: >>>> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as >>>> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or >>>> not). I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series >>>> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any >>>> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let >>>> them know that you have no need for windows. >>>> >>>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd >>> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy >>> it with Windows than without. >> You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system? Because I was >> just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly >> the same price with and without windows. The one big difference seemed >> to be that not all of the same options were available depending on >> whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options >> (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of >> processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... >> Don't ask me why...) > > > Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with > Microsoft. Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements? It could > work like this: Microsoft can make their system run slower so that people > are motivated to buy new hardware. Microsoft doesn't have much > competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their code > for speed. Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck? > Microsoft's history was that it was hardware agnostic. They wanted you to run Windows whether you were using Intel, MIPS or Alpha chips. I can't see them intentionally favoring one CPU over another, especially given how quickly CPUs have been changing. I certainly couldn't see Intel getting tied up in that kind of arrangement. > Related point: Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly. When Vista > comes out, what is its competition? Well, it's mostly XP. Wouldn't it be > nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great? Sure. They knew this day would > come when they made XP. Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great. Same > for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft. When you have a > monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, > there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that > you can sell upgrades more readily. > There were a couple of times when they floated the idea of charging for service packs - I think XP SP1 was one instance. That went nowhere. They've suggested charging for security updates/software and again it went nowhere. You also run the risk that new hardware is going to end up running OS X or some variant of Unix. I think what is going on is that MS is being buried under a pile of crappy code, some for backward compatibility, some newly written. They are so scared of having to compete without the inertia of legacy applications that they're committed to a path that increases bloat, complexity and bugs. They'll also sell out their users' security in an instant if it benefits their business partners, but that's another story :-) Compare that to Apple who routinely breaks compatibility in both hardware and software, dump the 68K for PowerPC for Intel; dump Mac OS for OS X. The technical press wailed about it being a fatal mistake every time, but they came through fine and now they're running a relatively clean OS on bleeding edge hardware. They also understand a lot about how to manage those breaks without pissing everyone off. MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS market share. As people move to more open document standards the dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could love :-) --rick From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 13:19:37 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:19:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch? In-Reply-To: <20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org> References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com> <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net> <20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:56:35AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: >> Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels >> would mean much to me as a user. > > I shouldn't, but I just can't resist responding to this.. > > FreeBSD isn't just a different kernel. It's like this: > > Linux is kernel + apps (mostly GNU). Right, but the article was about the code base for the kernels. > FreeBSD has a concept of a base system - so the OS itself isn't just a > kernel, but a kernel, plus the bare bones of a working OS (and very > little if any GNU in base). In other words, they distinguish between a > base system, and 3rd party applications. Some things like sendmail and > bind are included in base, but for most applications you install from > the package/ports system (i hear gentoo's package system is quite > similar). This lends to a very consistent and reliable core OS. It is possible to install GNU on FreeBSD kernel and drop all the FreeBSD utilities. http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ > As well, freebsd is very strict about the filesystem hierarchy. 3rd > party applications *never* install their configs to /etc. They belong > in /usr/local/etc. This separation, applied to all files and > applications on the system, is one of the best userland reasons to favor > freebsd over linux, imho. Why doesn't Linux do it that way? They've been adopting standards and I think that sounds like a good standard, or at least a good recommendation to developers. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 13:22:30 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:22:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote: > I think saying that Microsoft is making their products crappy on purpose > is giving them too much credit. When you're working with software that > is so overly complex and bloated, it'd be a miracle if it weren't so > crappy. > > A highlight: these system call diagrams. > http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311 Let's put it this way: When your corporation is worth $500 billion, you can fix your software. The reason they don't do it is not that their software is too complex and bloated, it's that they don't have a monetary incentive. The incentive system is pushing them away from producing higher quality products. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 13:27:41 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:27:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote: > MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS > market share. As people move to more open document standards the > dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune > and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could > love :-) I hope you are right, but I have my doubts. I think Microsoft can compete much better than they are right now. Apple has to be about 20 times as good just to keep up - inertia such as it is. When Microsoft starts to feel like it's losing, it will come out with better products. I believe they can do it because they have the money. They just need to hire the right people, focus the money on develompent, and they'll have something. Mike From admin at lctn.org Tue Jan 30 14:55:13 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:55:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution Message-ID: <1282.64.8.148.19.1170190513.squirrel@lctn.org> We are looking for an open source traffic shaping solution that meets the following requirements. no limit on amount of rules created. easy web interface shape traffic based on originating Public IP(s) Hoping for teared administration The solution would be for a WAN, where each entity has at least one public IP on the outside interface of their firewall, which nats all local LAN traffic. I am googling around for some ideas, but am hoping someone already knows the best solution. Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From sac at cheesecake.org Tue Jan 30 16:15:00 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:15:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> Message-ID: <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 13.27.41 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote: > > MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS > > market share. As people move to more open document standards the > > dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune > > and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could > > love :-) > > I hope you are right, but I have my doubts. I think Microsoft can compete > much better than they are right now. Apple has to be about 20 times as > good just to keep up - inertia such as it is. When Microsoft starts to > feel like it's losing, it will come out with better products. I believe > they can do it because they have the money. They just need to hire the > right people, focus the money on develompent, and they'll have something. You are ignoring a lot of evidence. The blogs are filled with info coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that company has become. Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon layers of management. Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to get from one end of the company to the other. These aren't things one fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed changes, but I will not grant that fact. Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its head. Also, Karl Marx is wearing no clothes. -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From tj at kewlness.net Tue Jan 30 16:01:08 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:01:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] my 2 cents (was Vista Lauch, Windows Tax, BSD) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net> Just my two cents for the discussion... While I dislike Microsoft's business practices, its mentality of "we are the sole innovator", and most specifically, its very poor operating system design, it is here to stay. We use Windows when it is the best tool for a particular job, and there is no shame in that. The sad part of the entire mess is that a lot of people, and indeed the general public, have the perception that FOSS and Microsoft are bitter enemies. We aren't enemies at all, as there is plenty of FOSS software for the Windows OS. We simply disagree as to philosophy of licensing and standardization. A number of very charasmatic people, like Richard Stallman and Bruce Perens, have elevated this disagreement to the stature of a jihad - with Microsoft as the primary target. Let's be honest, at the very least. Microsoft erased 50 different standards for supremely incompatible operating systems in the 80's. Microsoft was one of the original signatories to POSIX. If Microsoft had never existed, we would live in a very different world today, and not necessarily a better one. I think that while a confrontational style of debate is valuable, I do not believe that it will bring about the change that is so desperately desired. I personally believe that if open source is to succeed in changing the world of software, it must continue on its current path of solid technical and operational achievement. In other words, "talk is cheap". Wasting precious energy chewing old bones is the sport of the reporters and the news media. We have better things to do. The best stance for FOSS to take in my opinion, is similar to Ghandi's philosophy of passive civil disobedience - change through action but not through confrontation. We make software, we do it well, and we have the best licenses based on responsibility to the public. As for the old BSD versus Linux debate, this is as nonsensical as what flavor ice cream is best. BSD comes from a more formal and disciplined community than Linux. They have a different way of doing things. BSD comes from a more strict engineering background. Linux is far less formal, and more accepting of individual contributions. BSD has the attitude of "this is more elegant" and the community is less open to new people. Linux invites everyone to play in the pool, so to speak. I read a BSD user describe Linux once. He said that both approaches have merit. He said since Linux is more chaotic than BSD, so Linux distributions sometimes have problems, but because Linux drives in new directions faster than BSD, Linux goes to places (programmically speaking) that BSD hasn't or won't. This opens new doors for everyone. I prefer to think of BSD as Linux's ever serious older brother. BSD offers advice, but Linux goes its own way. In the end, both systems actually share quite a bit of the same code. For myself, I prefer Linux. I like living on the bleeding edge of code, and finding new ways of doing things. If you are more conservative, then perhaps BSD is for you. I find that either FreeBSD or Linux are very solid OS's and perfect for servers. The only major difference is that FreeBSD likes to compile things in on the fly installs, while Linux typically uses the binary package. It should be noted though, that those are default behaviors - either system can do the other. -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/98ef53bb/attachment.vcf From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 17:35:08 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:35:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > You are ignoring a lot of evidence. The blogs are filled with info > coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that > company has become. Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon > layers of management. Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to > get from one end of the company to the other. These aren't things one > fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there > is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed > changes, but I will not grant that fact. I hope you are right! > Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was > another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the > anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, > but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and > they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the > means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its > head. IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't think IBM was ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with. It takes a long time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall! > Also, Karl Marx is wearing no clothes. I'm not sure what that means, but I understand that you are the Emperor: > Sidney CAMMERESI > http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ Best, Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 18:02:01 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:02:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] my 2 cents (was Vista Lauch, Windows Tax, BSD) In-Reply-To: <45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net> References: <45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Just my two cents for the discussion... > > While I dislike Microsoft's business practices, its mentality of "we are > the sole innovator", and most specifically, its very poor operating > system design, it is here to stay. Do people believe that Microsoft is innovative? They really are not innovative. In fact, they are one of the least innovative software companies I can think of. Most of their better ideas come from outside the company, but they don't have much that looks original to me. > We use Windows when it is the best tool for a particular job, and there > is no shame in that. Maybe shame isn't the right word, but there must be some disappointment in finding out that you don't have a better option. > The sad part of the entire mess is that a lot of people, and indeed the > general public, have the perception that FOSS and Microsoft are bitter > enemies. We aren't enemies at all, as there is plenty of FOSS software > for the Windows OS. We simply disagree as to philosophy of licensing > and standardization. A number of very charasmatic people, like Richard > Stallman and Bruce Perens, have elevated this disagreement to the > stature of a jihad - with Microsoft as the primary target. There is good reason to be concerned about Microsoft. For example, have you read this?: A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html > Let's be honest, at the very least. Microsoft erased 50 different > standards for supremely incompatible operating systems in the 80's. > Microsoft was one of the original signatories to POSIX. If Microsoft > had never existed, we would live in a very different world today, and > not necessarily a better one. Not *necessarily* a better one, but *probably* a better one. > I think that while a confrontational style of debate is valuable, I do > not believe that it will bring about the change that is so desperately > desired. I personally believe that if open source is to succeed in > changing the world of software, it must continue on its current path of > solid technical and operational achievement. In other words, "talk is > cheap". Wasting precious energy chewing old bones is the sport of the > reporters and the news media. We have better things to do. The best > stance for FOSS to take in my opinion, is similar to Ghandi's philosophy > of passive civil disobedience - change through action but not through > confrontation. We make software, we do it well, and we have the best > licenses based on responsibility to the public. Complaining about Microsoft is a good way to get attention for the important issue of software licensing. We need all the attention we can get. That's why Stallman does things like this: http://badvista.fsf.org/ > I find that either FreeBSD or Linux are very solid OS's and perfect for > servers. Sure. I mostly use Linux because it's easy to access it. All of our newer supercomputers are running it. All the software I find will compile on Linux with gcc (maybe it will compile on FreeBSD, but I haven't tried it). Some software comes in binaries for Linux but not for FreeBSD. For better or worse, Linux has become the de facto standard OS in scientific computing, at least in my fields (mostly stats and genetics). I really can't see FreeBSD overtaking Linux, so I'm going to stick with Linux. I have nothing really against FreeBSD, but I do think the GPL is better than the Berkeley license because the GPL does not allow binary-only distributions that hijack the code into being proprietary (though free, but only as in beer). Mike From rwh at visi.com Tue Jan 30 18:17:18 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:17:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > >> You are ignoring a lot of evidence. The blogs are filled with info >> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that >> company has become. Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon >> layers of management. Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to >> get from one end of the company to the other. These aren't things one >> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there >> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed >> changes, but I will not grant that fact. > > I hope you are right! > > >> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was >> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the >> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, >> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and >> they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the >> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its >> head. > > IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell > mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer > design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't think IBM was > ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software > -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with. It takes a long > time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall! > > Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand, Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible. IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off 45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford today. Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary model - the way IBM use to do business. MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 - OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a long time. --rick From jack at jacku.com Tue Jan 30 18:59:53 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:59:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> Message-ID: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> rwh wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: > >> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: >> >> >>> You are ignoring a lot of evidence. The blogs are filled with info >>> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that >>> company has become. Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon >>> layers of management. Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to >>> get from one end of the company to the other. These aren't things one >>> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there >>> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed >>> changes, but I will not grant that fact. >>> >> I hope you are right! >> >> >> >>> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was >>> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the >>> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, >>> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and >>> they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the >>> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its >>> head. >>> >> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell >> mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer >> design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't think IBM was >> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software >> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with. It takes a long >> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall! >> >> >> > > Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand, > Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. > HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to > compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. > You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, > except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or > not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible. > > IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by > the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off > 45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford > today. > > Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a > hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that > model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary > model - the way IBM use to do business. > > MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to > replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 - > OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a > long time. > > --rick > > > The man on the inside right now is Ray Ozzie. Whether he can shift Microsoft's direction is still to be seen. He's full impact will probably only be felt when Gates "retires" to being only the Chairman and Ozzie reports directly to Ballmer. According to this (http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6084396.html) article from CNet, Craig Mundie is in the mix as well. But Ozzie has the resume that includes Lotus Notes and Groove on it and appears to be the "idea" man for the future. One IBM competitor everybody forgot was Amdahl. Remember it was Gene Amdahl that coined the term FUD in reference to IBM. With respect to UniSys they've done what IBM's done, they've become primarily a services company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or folded since then. -- -------------------- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 19:23:41 2007 From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:23:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> Message-ID: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Hey all, I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. Benjamin From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Jan 30 19:27:36 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:27:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote: > Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand, > Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. > HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to > compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. > You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, > except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or > not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible. Thanks to everyone for all the historical info. I should point out that IBM does till make mainframes and their vendor lock-in system is still working for them. Check out this article (NY Times, 8 May 2006): http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/technology/08ibm.html?ex=1304740800&en=d98e03e56e9faa78&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss I think you can see that, but if you can't, let me know. Mike From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com Tue Jan 30 20:53:35 2007 From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:53:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <20070131025335.GA13765@mail.el-swifto.com> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 11:30:49AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > Related point: Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly. When Vista > comes out, what is its competition? Well, it's mostly XP. Wouldn't > it be nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great? Sure. They knew this day > would come when they made XP. Maybe that explains why XP isn't so > great. Same for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft. I haven't seen Vista yet, so I can't say one way or another. But I *have* seen the hardware requirements for Vista, and I just love the idea of everyone dumping their 2 GHz P4's with a mere 1 GB RAM since they're too slow for Vista. In a year or so the market should be flooded with cheap boxen more than suitable for even the fattest *nixen. -- trammell at el-swifto.com 9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58 FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5 Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG) Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota From bhartm at visi.com Tue Jan 30 21:47:23 2007 From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:47:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> Message-ID: <45C0114B.90101@visi.com> > > ...they've become primarily a services > company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or > folded since then. Yes, yes and not yet. Syntegra is now under BT. Web hosting and email processing for very large orgs. Jack Ungerleider wrote: > rwh wrote: > >> Mike Miller wrote: >> >> >>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You are ignoring a lot of evidence. The blogs are filled with info >>>> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that >>>> company has become. Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon >>>> layers of management. Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to >>>> get from one end of the company to the other. These aren't things one >>>> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there >>>> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed >>>> changes, but I will not grant that fact. >>>> >>>> >>> I hope you are right! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was >>>> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the >>>> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, >>>> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and >>>> they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the >>>> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its >>>> head. >>>> >>>> >>> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell >>> mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer >>> design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't think IBM was >>> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software >>> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with. It takes a long >>> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall! >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand, >> Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. >> HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to >> compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. >> You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, >> except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or >> not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible. >> >> IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by >> the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off >> 45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford >> today. >> >> Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a >> hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that >> model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary >> model - the way IBM use to do business. >> >> MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to >> replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 - >> OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a >> long time. >> >> --rick >> >> >> >> > The man on the inside right now is Ray Ozzie. Whether he can shift > Microsoft's direction is still to be seen. He's full impact will > probably only be felt when Gates "retires" to being only the Chairman > and Ozzie reports directly to Ballmer. According to this > (http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6084396.html) article from CNet, Craig > Mundie is in the mix as well. But Ozzie has the resume that includes > Lotus Notes and Groove on it and appears to be the "idea" man for the > future. > > One IBM competitor everybody forgot was Amdahl. Remember it was Gene > Amdahl that coined the term FUD in reference to IBM. With respect to > UniSys they've done what IBM's done, they've become primarily a services > company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or > folded since then. > > > From brockn at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 20:59:16 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:59:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <741dcbb80701301859u2ae8e409s4eba7907b088988a@mail.gmail.com> I print mine out. Brock On 1/30/07, Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > > Hey all, > > I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN > dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part > of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for > firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use > to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck > there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. > > Benjamin > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/82955f71/attachment.htm From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Tue Jan 30 15:04:57 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:04:57 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070130210457.1d13532a@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:23:41 -0600 Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the > MN dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the > forms. Part of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no > Adobe plugin for firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know > of a program I can use to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, > GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck there. Any ideas would be great. > Thanks in advance. Maybe foxit? http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/desklinux/ Josh From bhartm at visi.com Tue Jan 30 22:03:11 2007 From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:03:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com> Not to be too snarky in the middle of the conversation of the day, but This sounds like a job for Windows! I know. bad answer. But that's how I do it. Every year. If you need a winbox, I can hook you up. Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN > dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part > of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for > firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use > to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck > there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. > > Benjamin > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From thecubic at thecubic.net Tue Jan 30 21:24:55 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (David Carlson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:24:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net> You could try installing QEMU and running Acrobat Reader with QEMU emulation. I was able to get PPC vim to work on x86 with about 10 minutes effort - it shouldn't be that hard the other way around. It is a pain, though, as you have to copy over the target arch libraries (copying /lib /usr/lib to underneath /usr/qemu-i386 from x86 Ubuntu should suffice). -Dave > Hey all, > > I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN > dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part > of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for > firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use > to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck > there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. > > Benjamin > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dave Carlson From bhartm at visi.com Tue Jan 30 21:31:06 2007 From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:31:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock In-Reply-To: <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com> Message-ID: <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com> why does my clock run so fast? This is the second mobo to do this. Same AMD 1700+, btw. I guess that's the culprit. I could cron it, I know. I just do this: alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date' and then I forget to run date. OK, I'm back from the future. From sac at cheesecake.org Tue Jan 30 22:04:10 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:04:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 17.35.08 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > >Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary. E.g. IBM which was > >another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the > >anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, > >but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and > >they did not adapt to this fact. It's not all about who controls the > >means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its > >head. > > IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell Are you serious? How many IBM computers are in your organisation? > mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer > design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't think IBM was > ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software `Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'? > -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with. It takes a long > time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall! -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From sac at cheesecake.org Tue Jan 30 22:20:20 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:20:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> Message-ID: <20070131042020.GB12489@cheesecake.org> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 18.17.18 -0600, rwh wrote: > Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. > HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to > compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. > You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, > except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or > not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible. Oh yeah man, Unisys still sells 36-bit machines, but the platform is called Clearpath IX now. -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From erikerik at gmail.com Tue Jan 30 23:07:33 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:07:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock In-Reply-To: <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com> <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, Bob Hartmann wrote: > > why does my clock run so fast? This is the second mobo to do this. > Same AMD 1700+, btw. I guess that's the culprit. I could cron it, I > know. I just do this: > alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date' > and then I forget to run date. > OK, I'm back from the future. Why don't you just run ntpd? That'll constantly take care of keeping your clock in sync and you'll be able to forget about it. After GNU screen, ntpd is always the first thing I install and get running on new server builds. -Erik From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 31 01:11:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:11:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: >> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see. In fact, they still sell > > Are you serious? How many IBM computers are in your organisation? We recently got rid of the IBM SP supercomputer that ran AIX. We have a Netfinity cluster, Power4 and now we have a BladeCenter: http://www.msi.umn.edu/ I don't work at MSI but I use their computers all the time. >> mainframes. They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop >> computer design. They are currently big Linux advocates. I don't >> think IBM was ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in >> desktop OS software > > `Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'? Maybe you read the NY Times article about IBM's continuing mainframe business. That surprised me too. That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly. Microsoft has 90% of the desktop OS market worldwide. People say they are dying, but how long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market? If a company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't call them dead. I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think Microsoft is very likely to outlive me. Mike From admin at lctn.org Wed Jan 31 05:35:12 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 05:35:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10701302101k46941ed9i692354f645f0bb80@mail.gmail.com> References: <5daafeb10701302101k46941ed9i692354f645f0bb80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <57308.204.212.34.10.1170243312.squirrel@lctn.org> > Have you looked at ipcop http://www.ipcop.org/ I use it at home here.I don't > use the traffic shaping part of it, but it is available. There's alot pf > plug ins for it and one of them might do what you want. That works great for a local LAN, but we need a solution for a WAN. We have 18 school districts. All have their own routers and firewall, but have to pass through our gateway for Internet. We are looking at a "for cost" solution, but it has some surprising limitations. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 09:18:39 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:18:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> <7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net> Message-ID: <45C0B34F.3050009@gmail.com> David Carlson wrote: > You could try installing QEMU and running Acrobat Reader with QEMU > emulation. I was able to get PPC vim to work on x86 with about 10 minutes > effort - it shouldn't be that hard the other way around. It is a pain, > though, as you have to copy over the target arch libraries (copying /lib > /usr/lib to underneath /usr/qemu-i386 from x86 Ubuntu should suffice). > > -Dave > Plus, even if you could get a recent version Acrobat Reader to run, you would probably still be hosed, because Acrobat won't let you _save_ the data that you typed into the form - because this is Adobe's latest moneymaking scam. However, if you find and install version 5 or older of Acrobat reader - then - while it will complain that the pdf contains new things it doesn't know how to display - in my experience, it works just fine - and it will let you save the data that you type into the form. This holds for windows or linux, however you end up doing it. Dan -- **************************** Daniel Armbrust Biomedical Informatics Mayo Clinic Rochester daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu http://informatics.mayo.edu/ From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 09:41:55 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:41:55 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com> <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org> <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com> <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/07, Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN > dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part > of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for > firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use > to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck > there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. > > Benjamin > I know this isn't a very good answer, since it is still not available in a released version, but there was a google summer-of-code project to develop this functionality for evince (the GNOME PDF viewer). I don't know how well it works, but if you're desperate, you could try it out. Look here: http://live.gnome.org/Evince/Forms. I also just found this on a quick search. I've never used it, but you might try it. It appears to be built on top of eclipse. It's not Open-source, but it appears to be free for private use:http://www.cabaret-solutions.com/en/ -- jonner From jus at krytosvirus.com Wed Jan 31 10:12:57 2007 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:12:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com> Message-ID: <200701311012.57783.jus@krytosvirus.com> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 23:07, Erik Anderson wrote: > On 1/30/07, Bob Hartmann wrote: > > why does my clock run so fast? This is the second mobo to do this. > > Same AMD 1700+, btw. I guess that's the culprit. I could cron it, I > > know. I just do this: > > alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date' > > and then I forget to run date. > > OK, I'm back from the future. > > Why don't you just run ntpd? That'll constantly take care of keeping > your clock in sync and you'll be able to forget about it. After GNU > screen, ntpd is always the first thing I install and get running on > new server builds. > > -Erik http://www.openntpd.org/ From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Jan 31 11:00:41 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:00:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200701311700.l0VH0f315872@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Cisco 678 DSL modem Cisco 678 DSL modem In working condition. Comes with original Cisco power supply and manual. $50 OBO Seller Email address: tclug dot org at markcourtney dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Jan 31 11:05:16 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:05:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <45C0114B.90101@visi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hartmann > > > > ...they've become primarily a services > > company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed > names, merged or > > folded since then. > Yes, yes and not yet. Syntegra is now under BT. Web hosting > and email > processing for very large orgs. > There are several other names still around. CDC spun off and divested all sorts of stuff, but I think there is at least one piece still part of the corporate lineage... something starting with a C... Ceridian? The Polar and Cypress semiconductor fabs were onec part of CDC, but spun off long ago. Our local General Dynamics group is another. Nearly all of the buidings East of MOA were originally built by CDC for various purposes. Chuck From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Jan 31 11:13:28 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:13:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM > > > That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly. > Microsoft has 90% > of the desktop OS market worldwide. People say they are > dying, but how > long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market? If a > company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't > call them > dead. I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think > Microsoft is very > likely to outlive me. > Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share. Chuck From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Jan 31 11:29:42 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:29:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution In-Reply-To: <57308.204.212.34.10.1170243312.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of admin at lctn.org > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:35 AM > > > Have you looked at ipcop http://www.ipcop.org/ I use it at > home here.I > don't > > use the traffic shaping part of it, but it is available. > There's alot > pf > > plug ins for it and one of them might do what you want. > > That works great for a local LAN, but we need a solution for a WAN. We > have 18 school districts. All have their own routers and firewall, but > have to pass through our gateway for Internet. We are looking > at a "for > cost" solution, but it has some surprising limitations. There's a package around for hotspots that supposedly has the feature. It's a firmware replacement for the WiFi Router. Compatible with Linksys and other routers. Look into DD-WRT. It has some "throttling" strategy options. Chuck From sos at zjod.net Wed Jan 31 11:48:00 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:48:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM > > > > > > That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly. > > Microsoft has 90% > > of the desktop OS market worldwide. People say they are > > dying, but how > > long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market? If a > > company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't > > call them > > dead. I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think > > Microsoft is very > > likely to outlive me. > > > > Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in > Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share. > > Probably more like "50% of the _Linux_ market" in Europe... OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006: > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are: > > 1. Windows XP 86.80% > 2. Windows 2000 6.09% > 3. Windows 98 2.68% > 4. Macintosh 2.32% > 5. Windows ME 1.09% > 6. Linux 0.36% > 7. Windows NT 0.24% > 8. Macintosh Power PC 0.15% ... > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors > of Internet users arrived at sites that are > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned > in the research are averages and all measurements > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day. source: http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox46-operating-systems-market-share.html I'd argue that the methodology used would bias the results toward desktops and away from servers. Further, use of proxies behind firewalls would tend to bias the results as well, as would "normalized timezones" and/or reducing the sample to 20K visitors per country. So take these numbers with a grain of salt. -S From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 31 11:56:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:56:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Chuck Cole wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM >> >> >> That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly. Microsoft has 90% >> of the desktop OS market worldwide. People say they are dying, but how >> long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market? If a >> company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't call them >> dead. I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think Microsoft is >> very likely to outlive me. >> > > Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in > Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share. That would be awesome. Let me know if you find a reference. I found this, but I think it only applies to the US: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2 Windows ME has more than twice the market share of Linux, and Windows 98 has about five times the market share of Linux. So maybe in a year or two Linux will defeat Windows ME and we can have a little party to celebrate! ;-) In he month before Vista was released, it already had almost have the market share of Linux, according to netapplications.com. Windows OSs have about 95.4% of the total. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 31 12:06:02 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:06:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote: > OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006: > > > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are: > > > > 1. Windows XP 86.80% > > 2. Windows 2000 6.09% > > 3. Windows 98 2.68% > > 4. Macintosh 2.32% > > 5. Windows ME 1.09% > > 6. Linux 0.36% > > 7. Windows NT 0.24% > > 8. Macintosh Power PC 0.15% > > ... > > > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent > > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors > > of Internet users arrived at sites that are > > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the > > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned > > in the research are averages and all measurements > > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is > > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided > > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day. Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such? I don't know why a machine would give it's OS to a web site! It seems like a bad idea, so maybe Linux users avoid it. Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested. Mike From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Wed Jan 31 12:49:57 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:49:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> Message-ID: On 1/31/07, Mike Miller wrote: > Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such? I don't know > why a machine would give it's OS to a web site! It seems like a bad idea, > so maybe Linux users avoid it. Web browsers generally identify their OS to sites they browse via the user agent string. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_agent#Example_user-agent_strings. If you use firefox, you can see what your browser is reporting itself as in the help>about box. I doubt that user-agent spoofing or hiding has much of an impact on statistics. -- jonner From jack at jacku.com Wed Jan 31 12:51:25 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:51:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> Message-ID: <19281.70.59.124.241.1170269485.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com> > On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote: > >> OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006: >> >> > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are: >> > >> > 1. Windows XP 86.80% >> > 2. Windows 2000 6.09% >> > 3. Windows 98 2.68% >> > 4. Macintosh 2.32% >> > 5. Windows ME 1.09% >> > 6. Linux 0.36% >> > 7. Windows NT 0.24% >> > 8. Macintosh Power PC 0.15% >> >> ... >> >> > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent >> > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors >> > of Internet users arrived at sites that are >> > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the >> > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned >> > in the research are averages and all measurements >> > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is >> > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided >> > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day. > > > Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such? I don't know > why a machine would give it's OS to a web site! It seems like a bad idea, > so maybe Linux users avoid it. > > Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested. > It would part of the HTTP_USER_AGENT value, which is a standard CGI environment variable. Its included as part of the HTTP REQUEST data. Do a Google search on "browser identification" there are several sites on the web that will feed the information back to you. -- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 31 13:03:23 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:03:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > On 1/31/07, Mike Miller wrote: >> Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such? I don't know >> why a machine would give it's OS to a web site! It seems like a bad idea, >> so maybe Linux users avoid it. > > Web browsers generally identify their OS to sites they browse via the > user agent string. see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_agent#Example_user-agent_strings. > If you use firefox, you can see what your browser is reporting itself > as in the help>about box. > I doubt that user-agent spoofing or hiding has much of an impact on > statistics. Thanks. And thanks to everyone else who filled me in on this point. I do lots of Linux computing myself, but almost all of it is done via ssh or vnc from a Windows machine. My web browsing is done 99+% from a Windows machine. It has been convenient to work this way, but the latest release of Windows is not looking so appealing to me. It does seem like a good time to try Linux on the desktop again. I have used Linux on desktop a few times but it never really took. Probably part of my problem is that I don't make it my primary computer -- it's either a second OS or it's a second (and less powerful) computer. Maybe something like the next release of Ubuntu will be enough to get me to make the leap. It is definitely a goal of mine to dump Windows completely. Mike From sos at zjod.net Wed Jan 31 14:49:25 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:49:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <19281.70.59.124.241.1170269485.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com> Message-ID: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net> Jack Ungerleider wrote: > > > > On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote: > > > >> OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006: > >> > >> > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are: > >> > > >> > 1. Windows XP 86.80% > >> > 2. Windows 2000 6.09% > >> > 3. Windows 98 2.68% > >> > 4. Macintosh 2.32% > >> > 5. Windows ME 1.09% > >> > 6. Linux 0.36% > >> > 7. Windows NT 0.24% > >> > 8. Macintosh Power PC 0.15% > >> > >> ... > >> > >> > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent > >> > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors > >> > of Internet users arrived at sites that are > >> > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the > >> > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned > >> > in the research are averages and all measurements > >> > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is > >> > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided > >> > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day. > > > > > > Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such? I don't know > > why a machine would give it's OS to a web site! It seems like a bad idea, > > so maybe Linux users avoid it. > > > > Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested. > > > > It would part of the HTTP_USER_AGENT value, which is a standard CGI > environment variable. Its included as part of the HTTP REQUEST data. Do a > Google search on "browser identification" there are several sites on the > web that will feed the information back to you. > I concur, it's probably done by looking a web browser HTTP_USER_AGENT strings. However, if you look at who _serves_ the pages instead of who _reads_ 'em, it's quite a different story: > Top Developers > > Developer December 2006 Percent January 2007 Percent %_Change > Apache 63819607 60.64 64312083 60.17 -0.47 > Microsoft 32277976 30.67 32898421 30.78 0.11 > Sun 1763847 1.68 1749026 1.64 -0.04 > Zeus 635673 0.60 551767 0.52 -0.08 Source: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html Note that the Security Space "Research Reports" section reports slightly different statistics: > January 1st, 2007 > > Across All Domains > > Market Share Change (Total servers: 21,566,239) > > SERVER DEC. COUNT DEC % NOV COUNT NOV % CHANGE > Apache 15,785,782 73.20% 15,645,600 73.28% -0.08% > Microsoft 4,383,008 20.32% 4,369,859 20.47% -0.15% > Zeus 122,967 0.57% 132,276 0.62% -0.05% > WebSTAR 97,982 0.45% 86,885 0.41% +0.04% > Netscape 71,532 0.33% 70,557 0.33% +0.00% > WebSite 10,579 0.05% 10,833 0.05% +0.00% > Other 1,094,389 5.07% 1,034,155 4.84% +0.23% Source: http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200612/index.html Methodology in both of these surveys seems to be web-crawlers and/or HEAD requests. So, Apache has roughly 60-70% of the market, at least twice that of Microsoft. How much of the Apache market runs what platform is tougher to find out (read: I'm still looking). BTW: http://www.securityspace.com has some interesting surveys, including one on mail servers showing sendmail with 32% of the market, Microsoft with 21% and the rest spread among other mail servers. -S From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Jan 31 15:05:56 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:05:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?") In-Reply-To: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net> References: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote: > How much of the Apache market runs what platform is tougher to find out > (read: I'm still looking). Right, and I think that's where you'll have a lot of blocking going on. Many admins don't want their servers to report their OS. They might have to resort to questionnaires. Mike From admin at lctn.org Wed Jan 31 15:21:41 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:21:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution In-Reply-To: <914f813c0701311304r69f2322bn4376bc85508fc167@mail.gmail.com> References: <1282.64.8.148.19.1170190513.squirrel@lctn.org><914f813c0701311304r69f2322bn4376bc85508fc167@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2606.64.8.148.19.1170278501.squirrel@lctn.org> > Are your routers QoS-capable? If so, this may provide the > functionality you need. Not sure about web interface, and the "easy" >requirement may rule out every possible solution. We have a number of different style routers that might fit the bill, but if we do it that way, I definitely am elected for setting up, and maintaining the QOS. We were dreaming of an interface that most of our tech coordinators could handle:) -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.