From marc at e-skinner.net Thu Feb 1 09:54:45 2007 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:54:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <45C20D45.2090009@e-skinner.net> Nate Carlson wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > >> Interesting. When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on >> lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I >> believe). And I added identical with-windows and without-windows >> notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to >> the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in >> the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the >> cart. So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the full >> $350 rebate was applied. Without the rebate, they would have been >> exactly the same price. >> > > They had also discounted the wireless card, the Cingular wireless card, > and various other parts only on the Windows one.. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | > | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > i just got a thinkpad t60 from cdw - with winxp - and i was just about to attempt to get my ms tax money refunded. but then found out - after about 3 weeks of trying - that my embedded evdo card could only be activated via a verizon winxp appliation. so, i had to actually re-install from the recovery discs they sent and install winxp to activate my card - which of course made accept the ms license etc. so, winxp was on my laptop for about 15 minutes, now its FC6 and my evdo card works awesome! From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:12:32 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:12:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and the CoM? My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the device. And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. -- Donovan Niesen From swhite at ci.bloomington.mn.us Thu Feb 1 12:12:51 2007 From: swhite at ci.bloomington.mn.us (Steven White) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:12:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 Message-ID: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> Greetings from a lurker. I have a desktop computer (built myself totally from parts on sale after rebate) on the second floor of our house, running SUSE 10.1, and I would like to get it to connect to the Qwest Actiontec DSL modem which has wireless capability, so I don't have to run a cable down the stairs if I want to use the internet. I know that the wireless function works because my spouse uses her office laptop with wireless. I know that the WIRED connection to the Linux desktop works because I actually have run a cable down the stairs to the modem to test. I don't have enough money in my personal toy budget to keep buying wireless PCI network cards and trying them until I find one that works. I did that once (an off-brand wireless network card on sale after rebate) and I could not make it work. I have looked at the hardware compatibility list on the opensuse.org web site, and all the network cards mentioned (there are not many) seem to have some "gotcha," like needing a driver from somewhere, needing ndiswrapper, etc. I would like to find something that just works. So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would work "out of the box"? Thank you. Steven White City of Bloomington 1800 W Old Shakopee Rd Bloomington MN 55431-3096 USA 952-563-4882 (voice) 952-563-4672 (fax) steven.white at ci.bloomington.mn.us From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 13:11:05 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:11:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery should last between 17 and 33 hours. -- jonathon jongsma From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Feb 1 14:09:58 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:09:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Donovan Niesen > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:13 PM > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > You should be able to extend the battery life by using power cutback routines in both monitor and computer thingy. Still, it's never a good idea to risk that the car won't start. Better to use a second battery that can go dead and not affect car starting at all. This is a standard RV setup: use two fat power diodes from the alternator (common anodes) and separately to each battery. Leave the car wiring the same otherwise. Whichever battery most needs charging will get charged and both will be OK. The auxilliary battery can go dead and the car will still start. I found that it was cheaper to use guaranteed KMart batteries and not the expensive deep-discharge batteries because they will die in about the same time and the guarantee will usually replace for free or cheap. A regular car battery needs to "see" starting current now and then to keep its pores open, and that would need a bit more to automate swapping the battery roles. Chuck From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Thu Feb 1 14:27:11 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:27:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nevermind .... I'm used to working in standard AC voltages, forgot about cars being 12 volts. Sorry! Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > To: Donovan Niesen > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a > carbattery? > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > -- > jonathon jongsma > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Thu Feb 1 14:26:00 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:26:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sound more like .3A to me. I normally figure 100 watts per amp (actually it's higher than that). Which would mean 170 to 330 hours, which would make it at least possible for 7 days. Larry Pint > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > To: Donovan Niesen > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a > carbattery? > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > -- > jonathon jongsma > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:01:08 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:01:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702011501l2fac0c9el7de443358d0943a7@mail.gmail.com> Great info. Whether the car starts is not necessarily an issue (as funny as that sounds). The draw of the LCD is what is making the most difference so we may need to settle on a smaller, lower power LCD. On 2/1/07, Larry R. Pint wrote: > Nevermind .... I'm used to working in standard AC voltages, forgot about > cars being 12 volts. > > Sorry! > > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > > To: Donovan Niesen > > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on > a > > carbattery? > > > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. > The > > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire > week > > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > > the CoM? > > > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > > device. > > > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > > -- > > jonathon jongsma > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Donovan Niesen From timo at bolverk.net Thu Feb 1 18:34:47 2007 From: timo at bolverk.net (Tim Oudin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:34:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011501l2fac0c9el7de443358d0943a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> ----- Donovan Niesen wrote: > Great info. Whether the car starts is not necessarily an issue (as > funny as that sounds). The draw of the LCD is what is making the > most > difference so we may need to settle on a smaller, lower power LCD. Or follow suit with the car audio crowd and install more batteries... -- timo From thecubic at thecubic.net Thu Feb 1 19:43:46 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (David Carlson) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:43:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> References: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> Message-ID: <18366.163.231.6.87.1170380626.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net> > Or follow suit with the car audio crowd and install more batteries... If you were to do that, to keep 35W at 12V alive for 7 days, you would need: 7 days / ( (50 A * 1 hr * 12V) / (35 W) ) = 10 batteries (google the LHS) You're likely only to find 50Ah batteries. Optima yellow-top deep-cycle ($200) is rated at 55Ah - YJMV (Your Jouleage May Vary). Each battery is at least 60 pounds also. What's the application? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dave Carlson From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Feb 1 20:48:21 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:48:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty cycle. When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit b/w LCD. Jeremy On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:45:51 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:45:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, Jeremy wrote: > > 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car > alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty > cycle. > > When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to > load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? > > If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of > some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit > b/w LCD. > > Jeremy > > On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and hopefully for the long battery life. -- Donovan Niesen From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 00:27:34 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:27:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 In-Reply-To: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> References: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Steven White wrote: > ... > So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of > PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would > work "out of the box"? It's not PCI, but I have a Hawking Technology HWU54G USB wireless card that works well with my desktop machine running fedora core 6. In fedora, it required that I download a gzipped tar of firmware files that had to be extracted to /lib/firmware (see http://zd1211.ath.cx), but I seem to recall it "just working" in ubuntu, so your experience may vary. It worked fine in either case, so I'd imagine your distro wouldn't have too much trouble. At any rate, this particular card was around $50 at Comp USA last fall, and I haven't had any trouble with it so far. sm From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:32:07 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:32:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and > hopefully for the long battery life. Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. Dan From david.alitz at charter.net Fri Feb 2 08:52:44 2007 From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:52:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C3503C.7070601@charter.net> What's the state of electronic paper tech these days? It only requires power to change the display. Sounds like it would be ideal for this sort of low power application. Just a thought. Dave Alitz Donovan Niesen wrote: > On 2/1/07, Jeremy wrote: > >> 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car >> alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty >> cycle. >> >> When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to >> load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? >> >> If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of >> some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit >> b/w LCD. >> >> Jeremy >> >> On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: >> >>> I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very >>> low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The >>> vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week >>> so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a >>> fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and >>> the CoM? >>> >>> My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be >>> it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the >>> device. >>> >>> And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Feb 2 09:06:14 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:06:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > The display > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > anything else that > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > running 24/7 and > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > Dan Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info but also bid. Chuck From ryan.langseth at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 17:52:07 2007 From: ryan.langseth at gmail.com (Ryan Langseth) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:52:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: References: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: How about using a solar panel to suppliment the battery? Many wireless ISPs use solar with low power embedded boards (Soerkris, wrap, PC engines) to charge batteries which, in turn, power their access ports Ryan Langseth On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > The display > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > anything else that > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > running 24/7 and > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > Dan > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info > but also bid. > > Chuck > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Feb 2 18:12:49 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:12:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hard to get enough ampere-hours per 24hr day from a reasonable solar panel. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Langseth [mailto:ryan.langseth at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:52 PM > > How about using a solar panel to suppliment the battery? Many > wireless ISPs use solar with low power embedded boards (Soerkris, > wrap, PC engines) to charge batteries which, in turn, power their > access ports > > > Ryan Langseth > > On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > > The display > > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > > anything else that > > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > > running 24/7 and > > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > > > Dan > > > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken > into unless 24/7 > > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps > with a big > > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not > only get info > > but also bid. > > > > Chuck From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 21:41:22 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:41:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: References: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702021941r53c70f3bs4a6a865d2f643ad@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > The display > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > anything else that > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > running 24/7 and > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > Dan > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info > but also bid. > > Chuck > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > The theft factor is definitely the nail in the coffin on this project. We are looking more along the lines of some type of kiosk or better guarded display. Can spend a little more on one large monitor to display info and can run it off a much more standard computer. Thanks for all of the great insights, everyone! -- Donovan Niesen From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 3 08:56:06 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:56:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702031456.l13Eu6L02902@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Home Based Data Entry/Typist Home Based Data Entry/Typist Earn $300-$900 per week from home doing data entry and typing. Complete Training, easy to start! http://ourdollars.com Seller Email address: blrbindu at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sat Feb 3 09:56:07 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:56:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware Message-ID: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Good Day Everyone: Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps inflate prices on legacy computers. Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will pick up. Thanks, David Alanis "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 13:21:19 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:21:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance Message-ID: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the resolution I want? - Joey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070203/78265e9e/attachment.htm From rclark at lakesplus.com Sat Feb 3 16:46:17 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:46:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1170542777.26777.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Replaced the mouse ... it did not fix the problem either ... grrrr ... VERY annoying to say the least. R On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 16:32 -0600, Randy Clarksean wrote: > Tried your suggestion ... did not work ... mouse would still not "click" > on anything. > > Randy > > On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 11:12 -0600, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > > > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > > > bit annoying. > > > > > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > > > with yum. > > > > > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > > > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > > > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > > > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > > > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > > > gone. > > > > > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > > > relog in and then everything is fine. > > > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Randy > > > > I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm > > not sure if it's the same issue. It doesn't happen very often, but > > it's very annoying when it does. I notice it most often on the web > > browser. When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them > > (i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the > > focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL. > > Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either. It seems > > like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from > > firing. The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console > > (e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the > > mouse will work normally again. You might try that next time it > > happens to you... Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to > > find a proper solution. > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From tmarble at info9.net Sat Feb 3 18:37:43 2007 From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:37:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> Joey Rockhold wrote: > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > resolution I want? On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default resolution in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen Resolution" and select the default. The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). You will find a section like this: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics Controller" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the resolution(s) that you want. HTH, --Tom From brockn at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 20:42:20 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:42:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <741dcbb80702031842h7f72a149l5dc06eb018988472@mail.gmail.com> The U's UCS is not a bad deal if you can get there on a Wednesday when everything is 20% off: http://www1.umn.edu/ucs/UsedEquip-PC.php Brock http://free-sailboat-listings.com On 2/3/07, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. > > I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070203/99381bec/attachment.htm From jack at jacku.com Sat Feb 3 22:55:18 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:55:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <200702032255.18266.jack@jacku.com> On Saturday 03 February 2007 9:56 am, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. > > I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" My standard suggestion for this type of thing is The Box Shop. I've purchased stuff from the St Paul store in the past with good luck. They're on Fairview just south of University across from Arby's and behind the Senior apartments. I know someone who got an old Dell PowerEdge server there for $45. Happy hunting. -- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From john.meier at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 01:13:41 2007 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 01:13:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <65293fcc0702032313t1c56df96j1ef18b661f2b608f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/07, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. Check this local auction place: http://corporate.idleassetauctions.com/ For instance - here's 2 compaq p3 1ghz currently at $31.00 -> http://corporate.idleassetauctions.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=desktop&item=1170966533 I've purchase wayyy too much from this place - much to my wife's dimay.... I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070204/8a257166/attachment-0001.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 4 13:41:23 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:41:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702041941.l14JfNx28968@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Hp LaserJet 5000 I've got a Hp Laserjet 5000, it has 8mb ram, no jetdirect cards. Something is up with the pinch rollers on the tray 2. So paper has to be fed in manually. I am looking to get rid of this. Free to a good home. Pick up is in Inver Grove Heights. Thanks! Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 4 23:01:24 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:01:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Houses Apartments and Roomates Type of Ad: For Free Subject: free cat I've got a little kitty who needs an affectionate home. We just had a child and so we can't give her the attention she deserves. She doesn't have her claws removed, and she has not been spayed. Nevertheless, she is an absolute charmer. I will drive a reasonable distance to aid with pick up. Seller Email address: benjamin dot gramlich at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Feb 5 10:08:01 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:08:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Cat adoption resources (was Re: New TCLUG Classified Ad) In-Reply-To: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> References: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> Message-ID: <20070205160713.GA19762@skuld.wookimus.net> In addition to using our classifieds website (??!!), try: http://www.caring-for-cats.org/ http://www.felinerescue.org/ Or do a search for "cat shelter" at maps.google.com for your area. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070205/ca5c9809/attachment.pgp From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 6 11:17:03 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:17:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702061717.l16HH3c03963@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 19 in. Samsung SyncMaster LCD 931B 19 in. Samsung SyncMaster 931B LCD - 1 pixel out. Located 3-4 inches below the top and dead center. 3 months old. $150. Burnsville Seller Email address: erick at metrocomputerrepair dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From mikebelden at comcast.net Thu Feb 1 12:50:59 2007 From: mikebelden at comcast.net (mikebelden at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:50:59 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 Message-ID: <020120071850.10531.45C2369300024E7F000029232216527966020A0B040A0D0A050703@comcast.net> I don't really know of any that just works out of the box for any distribution, but that's just my experience and I've only been using Linux for a couple years. I'm wrong more than I'm right. I have a Dynex wireless PCI card from Best Buy, which was only like $35. It's an Atheros card, getting it to work on my FC5 box was a little sketchy but I was willing to make that trade-off. The documentation for the madwifi drivers is pretty good so I'm sure you could make it work. Not sure if that's worth anything or not, just my $.02. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Steven White > Greetings from a lurker. > > I have a desktop computer (built myself totally from parts on sale > after rebate) on the second floor of our house, running SUSE 10.1, and I > would like to get it to connect to the Qwest Actiontec DSL modem which > has wireless capability, so I don't have to run a cable down the stairs > if I want to use the internet. I know that the wireless function works > because my spouse uses her office laptop with wireless. I know that the > WIRED connection to the Linux desktop works because I actually have run > a cable down the stairs to the modem to test. > > I don't have enough money in my personal toy budget to keep buying > wireless PCI network cards and trying them until I find one that works. > I did that once (an off-brand wireless network card on sale after > rebate) and I could not make it work. I have looked at the hardware > compatibility list on the opensuse.org web site, and all the network > cards mentioned (there are not many) seem to have some "gotcha," like > needing a driver from somewhere, needing ndiswrapper, etc. I would like > to find something that just works. > > So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of > PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would > work "out of the box"? > > Thank you. > > > Steven White > City of Bloomington > 1800 W Old Shakopee Rd > Bloomington MN 55431-3096 > USA > 952-563-4882 (voice) > 952-563-4672 (fax) > steven.white at ci.bloomington.mn.us > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070201/1efcc60d/attachment.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Feb 7 12:23:17 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:23:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: eMachines T2245 Hey All, I picked this eMachines T2245 from a friend and tried to get it to start. the machine starts (I think), The Powersupply starts and so does the fan on the cpu, but I dont get a video signal. It has no Hdd and or Memory. Its free to a good home whom might be willing to invest some time and little money into it. Otherwise its going out with my Thursday's garbage next week. LOL! Thanks! CPU: Intel? Celeron? Processor 2.20GHz (w/128KB L2 cache & 400MHz FSB) Operating System: Genuine Microsoft? Windows? XP Home Edition Chipset: Intel? 845GL chipset Optical Drive: 40 ? 12x40x Max. CD-RW Drive; 16x Max. DVD Drive; 3.5" 1.44MB FDD Video: Intel? Extreme Graphics 3D (integrated) Sound: AC '97 Audio Network: 10/100Mbps built-in Ethernet Modem: 56K ITU v.92-ready Fax/Modem Peripherals: Standard Multimedia Keyboard, 2-Button Wheel Mouse, Standard Speakers Ports/Other: 6 USB 2.0 ports (2 on front), 1 Serial, 1 Parallel, 2 PS/2, Microphone-In & Head Phone jack on front, Audio-In & Out, 3 PCI slots (2 available) Dimensions: 7.25"W x 14.125"H x 16"D Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From dniesen at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:11:37 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:11:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad In-Reply-To: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> References: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702071111n7d9b748y4a48a87a42215ed7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, TCLUG Classifieds wrote: > New TCLUG Classified Ad > > Category: Computer > > Type of Ad: For Free > > Subject: eMachines T2245 > > Hey All, > > I picked this eMachines T2245 from a friend and tried to get it to start. the machine starts (I think), The Powersupply starts and so does the fan on the cpu, but I dont get a video signal. > > It has no Hdd and or Memory. Its free to a good home whom might be willing to invest some time and little money into it. Otherwise its going out with my Thursday's garbage next week. LOL! > > Thanks! > CPU: Intel(r) Celeron(r) Processor 2.20GHz (w/128KB L2 cache & 400MHz FSB) > Operating System: Genuine Microsoft(r) Windows(r) XP Home Edition > Chipset: Intel(r) 845GL chipset > Optical Drive: 40 ? 12x40x Max. CD-RW Drive; 16x Max. DVD Drive; 3.5" 1.44MB FDD > Video: Intel(r) Extreme Graphics 3D (integrated) > Sound: AC '97 Audio > Network: 10/100Mbps built-in Ethernet > Modem: 56K ITU v.92-ready Fax/Modem > Peripherals: Standard Multimedia Keyboard, 2-Button Wheel Mouse, Standard Speakers > Ports/Other: 6 USB 2.0 ports (2 on front), 1 Serial, 1 Parallel, 2 PS/2, Microphone-In & Head Phone jack on front, Audio-In & Out, 3 PCI slots (2 available) > Dimensions: 7.25"W x 14.125"H x 16"D > > Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com > > http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > I come across a lot of these eMachines that have cheap motherboards and power supplies. It's best to replace both. Most of the time, the rest of the components survive. Usually you can find a decent replacement motherboard/power supply for under $100 that will bring it back to life. Feel free to email me if you want any advice on refurbishing these beasts. -- Donovan Niesen From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Wed Feb 7 22:34:59 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:34:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware Message-ID: <2007020804345945cd849005@mail.smumn.edu> Thanks everyone for your replies: Am in the process to pick up a few boxes this weekend (off from work-I will be in touch) from some of the members who replied on here . I currently installed backtrack based off slackware/Slax. I did a few searches for update managers, since I don't think it comes with YUM or the aptget "like" programs I found a few but no solid suggestions onllline. I know my "budy" Mr. Tom Johnson is a Slackware freak-so hopefully he will respond. Anyways, I would like to seek a few suggestions from the list? Thank you, David A. "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Feb 9 14:41:03 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:41:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702092041.l19Kf3B31431@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Subject: Want to trade wireless usb nic for wired I'm looking to trade a wireless USB nic (802.11G) - I believe it's netgear - for a wired 10/100 usb nic. This is for my TIVO, so a NIC on this list would be best: http://tinyurl.com/y5lgn2 Any takers? Dan Seller Email address: drue at therub dot org http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From molivier1.geo at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 20:42:25 2007 From: molivier1.geo at yahoo.com (Marc Olivier) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus Message-ID: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hello. I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) Marc molivier1 at excite.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From teeahr1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:16:10 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:16:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus In-Reply-To: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> Could you be a little more specific? I have the selfsame modem over here (just the basic rental unit from Qwest, right?) and have never had a problem getting it recognized "out of the box" (problems with the unit itself being a piece of shit notwithstanding, I've had to replace it twice in a year now...) Dammit, I just realized I missed the beer meeting last night! Booo! -p. On 2/9/07, Marc Olivier wrote: > > Hello. > I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine > using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. > The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get > it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it > work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and > had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need > to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you > happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get > it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? > > (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) > > Marc > molivier1 at excite.com > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/1331fc82/attachment.htm From teeahr1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:29:12 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian Message-ID: <1f729feb0702100829o6adb2893g53e82ff680638f27@mail.gmail.com> As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... best! -p. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/67e8bb7f/attachment.htm From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:33:29 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:33:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> References: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> Message-ID: <101e49ea0702100833t19748224n51e846752eb9e302@mail.gmail.com> The first suggestion, clicking on the default checkbox in screen resolution, did not help. I haven't tried the second method yet. - Joey On 2/3/07, Tom Marble wrote: > > Joey Rockhold wrote: > > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > > resolution I want? > > On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default > resolution > in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen > Resolution" > and select the default. > > The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing > /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). > > You will find a section like this: > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Default Screen" > Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics > Controller" > Monitor "Generic Monitor" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Depth 24 > Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" > "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the > resolution(s) that you want. > > HTH, > > --Tom > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/2c8bf1c0/attachment.htm From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sat Feb 10 11:10:19 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:10:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian Message-ID: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> I think you may be asking what the defferences are from one's perspective? I personally have used both and didn't notice any difference in usability perhaps that Ubuntu is a straight forward install? You raised a good question and I found an interesting read at least I think so, so am sure you have read it before, its on the Ubuntu site: Differences between Debian and Ubuntu: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/relationship On Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:29 AM, Pete Daniels wrote: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 From: Pete Daniels To: TCLUG Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... best! -p. "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" On Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:29 AM, Pete Daniels wrote: > >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 >From: Pete Daniels >To: TCLUG >Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian > >As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire ><2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. >However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the >"binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and >simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to >strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch >when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help >me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this >is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... > >best! >-p. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/1173d428/attachment-0001.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Sat Feb 10 11:32:53 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:32:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0702100833t19748224n51e846752eb9e302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My guess is that you have some Plug-and-Play dialog trying to "help" you and it defaults to 640x480 when it cannot query a monitor. Look for ways to override smart options as are implied by a "default" statement and mode options. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Joey Rockhold Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:33 AM To: Tom Marble Cc: TCLUG Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance The first suggestion, clicking on the default checkbox in screen resolution, did not help. I haven't tried the second method yet. - Joey On 2/3/07, Tom Marble wrote: Joey Rockhold wrote: > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > resolution I want? On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default resolution in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen Resolution" and select the default. The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). You will find a section like this: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics Controller" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the resolution(s) that you want. HTH, --Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/c68bab4c/attachment.htm From leif.t.johnson at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 12:43:51 2007 From: leif.t.johnson at gmail.com (Leif Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:43:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> References: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Are you using it as a USB modem? I too used to have one of these modems, and it worked with linux fine for me over ethernet. I never tried it as a USB modem. I did find it generally deficient, and have various networking problems (outbound ssh sucked, wireless sucked) that all went away when I replaced it with a Zoom DSL modem/wireless router. leif On 2/10/07, Pete Daniels wrote: > > Could you be a little more specific? I have the selfsame modem over here > (just the basic rental unit from Qwest, right?) and have never had a problem > getting it recognized "out of the box" (problems with the unit itself being > a piece of shit notwithstanding, I've had to replace it twice in a year > now...) > > Dammit, I just realized I missed the beer meeting last night! Booo! > > -p. > > On 2/9/07, Marc Olivier < molivier1.geo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Hello. > > I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine > > using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. > > The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get > > it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it > > work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and > > had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need > > to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you > > happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get > > it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? > > > > (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) > > > > Marc > > molivier1 at excite.com > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Want to start your own business? > > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/d9abf575/attachment.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:35:22 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:35:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102035.l1AKZMT16343@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free to Good Home Variety of computer parts. Several cases, power supplies, HD's, keyboards, mice, ethernet cables, power cords, too many items to mention. All this equipment was functional at the time they were retired. FREE to anyone. Please contact sales at bbwh.com and we can arrange for a showing. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:40:40 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:40:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102040.l1AKeet17050@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 2U rack mount case 2U rack mount case, in great shape and excellent working condition. Guts included for additional $$'s. Case: Intel box with hot swap HD bays. Guts: 4 36GB HD's (SCSI RAID), Intel dual Xeon PIII 833MHz chips, 1GB RAM. Make (Reasonable) Offer (check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for prices and go from there). Willing to part-out the box, but would rather keep it all together for the right price. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:44:00 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:44:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102044.l1AKi0O17743@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 3U rack mount box I have two 3U rack-mount server cases. Power supplies are included and fully functional at the time of their retirement. Guts thrown in at no additional cost, if wanted. Case: 3U rack mount with 300W PS. Guts: 900MHz Athlon w/ 256MB RAM. Make reasonable offer. check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for pricing on 3U rack-mount server cases Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:46:20 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:46:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102046.l1AKkKi18454@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: SCSI HD controllers I have four Adaptec SCSI controllers available. will accept reasonable offer. please check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for current pricing. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From josh at tcbug.org Sat Feb 10 22:09:32 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:09:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> References: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <200702102209.32960.josh@tcbug.org> On Saturday 10 February 2007 11:10, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > I think you may be asking what the defferences are from one's > perspective? I personally have used both and didn't notice any > difference in usability perhaps that Ubuntu is a straight forward > install? You raised a good question and I found an interesting read > at least I think so, so am sure you have read it before, its on the > Ubuntu site: > > Differences between Debian and Ubuntu: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/relationship > Ubuntu is an ancient African word meaning: Couldn't configure debian. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From tj at kewlness.net Sun Feb 11 00:28:51 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> > > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 > From: Pete Daniels > To: TCLUG > Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian > > As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... > > best! > -p. > > ***************************************** > Hey Pete! If you don't mind my being verbose, and somewhat opinionated, I'd be happy to elaborate on the differences between Debian and Ubuntu. I've used both - Debian for many years actually, and more recently Ubuntu for a short time. As with all things Linux, regardless of distribution it is the same OS. The only difference is what you feel comfortable with. I hope this all helps somewhat. Ask away all you like. I'll be happy to help you find one that works for you. I've used just about every major version of Linux, some FreeBSD, Solaris, and heaven knows what else. I'll start with Debian, since in describing Debian, Ubuntu falls into place. Debian, is of course, the parent distribution of Ubuntu, so they are basically identical in most respects with a few very important differences. Firstly, Debian is not just one distribution - but it's actually three branches or versions: "stable", "testing", "unstable". Technically four if you count "experimental", but thats really just a series of extensions to unstable. Stable is the version most commonly used. It's tested and true. Great for servers, very bad for desktop machines. The reason being is that the software versions are older and not up to par with what people expect. Stable is similar to FreeBSD. The software isn't the newest version, but it's rock solid and throughly tested. Security patches are backported from newer versions of existing software as needed. On average, Debian takes 2-3 years (yes, years) between stable releases. One thing you can be sure of. Debian stable boxes are solid, and I do mean solid - like granite. Debian draws a lot of criticism because of their slow stable releases. It was really because of this that Ubuntu was born. Debian stable changes at a glacial pace. The "testing" branch is the software elected for the next version of Debian stable. In order to enter the testing tree, a package can't have any bug reports filled against it for a number of weeks. Again, the software isn't the newest version, but it's close, ususally. Testing is a bit less stable than the normal "stable" tree, but far more so than Fedora Core. Its handicap is that the closer you get to release day, the faster they commit last minute changes, and the more likely you are to get a few broken dependencies on updates, which APT package management ususally corrects for automatically. But every so often, it can snafu. The "unstable" version is the developers version. This is new stuff. This is living on the bleeding edge - much like using Fedora Core. Changes and updates are made daily, sometimes hours or even minutes apart. New versions of Ubuntu come from a snapshot of the unstable tree. The problem is that since "unstable" is so fluid - changing so rapidly, dependency breakage is common. Normally again, APT is intelligent enough to incrementally upgrade your system, and thus actually prevents breakage. But it has happened. When dependencies break you might have to resort to a few manual overrides using synaptic (gui) or aptitude (command line). I've ran unstable for months at a time with no real major problems. It's more like using Fedora. I seriously recommend you never dabble in "experimental" - the extended version of unstable. It breaks, and you get to keep the pieces. Each version of Debian is divided into different archives: main, contrib, and non-free. Debian is very, very serious about software rights and FOSS. Proprietary packages may NEVER - EVER enter the main tree. Everything must be open source and patent free or patent released. The main tree is the actual Debian distribution. You can use the main tree with supreme confidence you won't get the lawyers at your door. The contrib tree is software that requires something that Debian doesn't provide in main, or open source that depends on closed source to function. An example of this would be an open source installer to install something external like Flash or Acrobat. The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, patented or proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows drives. Rather than deny it exists, Debian forged a sensible compromise. All proprietary or patented, but free to use software, like NVIDIA drivers go under "non-free". In this way, you can use them if you really want to, AND be assured that they will install and work cleanly on your systems. Ubuntu, on the other hand does things differently. They use a snapshot of the Debian unstable tree as a starting point. Then they divide it up into what they will offer support for and what they won't (unlike Debian who supports every single package they maintain). In other words, Ubuntu is in effect, a subset of Debian, but since Debian is over 16,000 packages, you can't blame them. The Debian packages Ubuntu won't support are sent into the "multiverse" archive, to use at your own risk. The remaining ones are used in the Ubuntu distribution - which is then tested, patched and released every 6 months or so. About 3,000 (conservative estimate) of the 16,000+ Debian supported packages ever make it into the main part of Ubuntu. Ubuntu, unlike Debian, has no qualms about using proprietary software in the main packages, as you have noted - especially video drivers. That's basically the difference. Ubuntu is aiming for the commercial desktop experience. Debian aims to just do a good job, and provide the widest selection, most stable, best software they can on a volunteer basis with the principles for open source firmly in mind. Your next question is probably going to be: so what do you use? I use Debian stable for servers. For my own use, I use a modified version of Gentoo currently. Why you may ask? I like to play with source code. Cheers! -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070211/d176c85f/attachment-0001.vcf From esper at sherohman.org Sun Feb 11 09:21:26 2007 From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:21:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> References: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <20070211152126.GD13750@genma.sherohman.org> Pretty good overview, but a couple minor nits... On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:28:51AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Stable is the version most commonly used. It's tested and true. Great > for servers, very bad for desktop machines. The reason being is that > the software versions are older and not up to par with what people > expect. I disagree that this is "very bad" for desktop machines. I've run a medium-scale corporate network with Debian stable for all new installs and, aside from a little initial "it's not Windows!" resistance from new hires in their first week or two, had no complaints/issues with it. Based on what I've seen, most of the stuff that's "not up to par with what people expect" is just eye candy anyhow and adds nothing to functionality for the average user. Bleeding-edge, anti-aliased, 3d-accelerated, composited alpha channel googaws may impress your friends, but there's no real need for them. (Even if Vista is attempting to make them ubiquitous.) > Ubuntu, on the other hand does things differently. They use a snapshot > of the Debian unstable tree as a starting point. Then they divide it up > into what they will offer support for and what they won't (unlike Debian > who supports every single package they maintain). In other words, > Ubuntu is in effect, a subset of Debian, but since Debian is over 16,000 > packages, you can't blame them. Debian is over 16,000 packages on 11 different CPU architectures. As near as I can tell, it appears that Ubuntu, in addition to cutting back to 3000 packages, also supports only 3 architectures (x86, x86_64, and PPC). But, again, you can't really blame them for focusing on the CPUs that such a large majority of systems run on. -- Windows Vista must be the first OS in history to have error codes for things like "display quality too high" - Peter Gutmann, "A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection" http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 11 10:44:05 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:44:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702111644.l1BGi5A13744@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 3 Complete Proliant Servers and other parts Compaq Proliant Servers I have the following Compaq Proliant Servers and parts For Sale. Please make me an offer for all or any of the following: I live in Crystal and you will have to pick up servers from my house. I can help you load them in your vehicle. Only make me an offer if you are familiar with Compaq/HP server hardware as these servers are not the same as a normal home desktops. All servers are tested and working but sold as is. Server 1: Compaq Proliant 3000 2 Pentium 2 333 MHz cpu's 2.8GB Ram Redundant power supplies (2) Smart Array 2DH (set up for raid 5) (7) 9.1GB Hard Drives 1 Eterhnet card Server 2: Compaq Proliaint 3000 1 300 MHz cpu 196MB Ram (5) 4.3GB Hard Drives Redundant power supplies (2) Smart Array 3200 (set for Raid 5) 2 Nics Server 3: Compaq Proliant 5500 (4) Intel Xeon PII 400MHz cpu's with 1MB cache each! 1.8GB Ram Smart Array 4200 (set up for Raid 5) (3) 9.1 GB 10,000 RPM drives 2 Nic's Redundant power supplies (2) Other Proliant parts 3 Proliant 3000/5500 redundant power supplies 2 spare fan kits partial kit for Remote Insight kit Smart array 2ch raid card Please contact me for any questions or make me an offer. I'm flexable with pickup times. E-mail: sale-275214557 at craigslist.org Seller Email address: rob dot hastings at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From ai9nl at arrl.net Sun Feb 11 12:42:40 2007 From: ai9nl at arrl.net (Harv Nelson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:42:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive Message-ID: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be much faster ... almost like having it in ram. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070211/7d116e7e/attachment.htm From josh at tcbug.org Sun Feb 11 13:10:44 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:10:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111310.44718.josh@tcbug.org> On Sunday 11 February 2007 12:42, Harv Nelson wrote: > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB > flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to > reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be > much faster ... almost like having it in ram. USB 2.0 isn't any faster than any modern hard drive would be. There's no need to reinstall to move it though. Just create a swap partition on the drive and edit /etc/fstab appropriately. Also, on a modern machine, you really shouldn't be swapping much anyways. You might consider adding more RAM. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From tclug at lizakowski.com Sun Feb 11 14:28:17 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:28:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111428.18685.tclug@lizakowski.com> > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB flash > drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to reinstall the > whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be much faster ... almost > like having it in ram. USB flash is not as fast as ram. It's read speed might compare to hard drives, but it's write speed is often slower. Sometimes much slower. http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/flash2005.ars/9 However, flash memory should have less latency than a mechanical drive. This could make it faster for some applications, especially read-only scenarios that involve lots of random access to small files. I don't think it would work well for swap, but it might be good for storing /boot, /lib, and /etc. If you want to avoid USB, you can buy adapters that connect compact flash card directly to IDE - it's essentially the same interface. Jeremy From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sun Feb 11 14:39:08 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:39:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: WTB PC 2100 Message-ID: <20070211203908599a34d97d@mail.smumn.edu> Again sorry for posting here directly. Am looking for a couple of PC 2100 512MB to 1G I don't mind driving as long as its not too far in or around Bloomington. Thank you, David "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 11 19:19:47 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:19:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702120119.l1C1Jlx21789@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: HP Scanjet 5p flatbed scanner HP Scanjet 5p flatbed scanner. Includes bundled Initio PCI SCSI card (not Linux friendly, last I checked) and an Adaptec 2940 SCSI card (haven't tested or verified). $50. Seller Email address: bhartm at visi dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cncole at earthlink.net Sun Feb 11 20:16:22 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:16:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Harv Nelson > Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig > USB flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout > having to reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap > file will be much faster ... almost like having it in ram. Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. The life is not short, but is write cycle-related so use as any form of cache or frequent swap space would not be wise. Perhaps that's no longer true, but it was in some product specs I've seen. Chuck From cschumann at twp-llc.com Mon Feb 12 07:06:22 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:06:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 > From: "T.J. Duchene" > The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, > patented or > proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile > everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows > drives. As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is a large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers and other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, and Livna for mplayer and xine. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora Core unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new software. Chris From admin at lctn.org Mon Feb 12 08:26:32 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:26:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off Message-ID: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. Frequently, the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, connectivity to the network is restored. Any ideas? Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Feb 12 09:59:15 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:59:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. It's not a good idea at all. If you want swap, use a hard-drive. If you want high performance for swap, put it on the outside cylinders of your hard-drive (the last partition). Better yet, have multiple hard drives and put it on the end of each disk. Linux understands how to increase performance across multiple swap devices. Also remember, the "swap = 2 * Physical RAM" is no longer necessary, especially when you start getting into large amounts of physical memory. Swap equal to physical is about as much as you need today, and I generally use less. Anyway, back to the grind. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From teeahr1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:23:49 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:23:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> References: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> Message-ID: <1f729feb0702120823i1bc9079uc07c954907d9aa59@mail.gmail.com> My thanks to everyone who replied. You've given me some food for thought. -p. On 2/12/07, Chris Schumann wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 > > From: "T.J. Duchene" > > > The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, > > patented or > > proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile > > everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows > > drives. > > As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. > > Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is > a > large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna > are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers > and > other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, > and > Livna for mplayer and xine. > > Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora > Core > unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new > software. > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070212/c15b20bf/attachment.htm From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:26:48 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:26:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > It's not a good idea at all. If you want swap, use a hard-drive. If > you want high performance for swap, put it on the outside cylinders of > your hard-drive (the last partition). Better yet, have multiple hard > drives and put it on the end of each disk. Linux understands how to > increase performance across multiple swap devices. > > Also remember, the "swap = 2 * Physical RAM" is no longer necessary, > especially when you start getting into large amounts of physical > memory. Swap equal to physical is about as much as you need today, > and I generally use less. > > Anyway, back to the grind. Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: Q: Won't this wear out the drive? A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we support. I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx -- jonner From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Feb 12 10:39:59 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:27 AM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > support. > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar > setup under linux... > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > -- > jonner > OH.. we must believe Microsoft! They are omniscient and never make mistakes or have vulnerabilities, right? This is at most "if our software does this, then spec sheet info says the flash will do that.. statistically. Statistics also say that some will die much sooner. What might would one lose or trash when swap is lost or hiccups during transactions? Neat new game to play, right? Chuck From erikerik at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:40:50 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:40:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > support. > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. -Erik From sos at zjod.net Mon Feb 12 11:08:26 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:08:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702121708.l1CH8QkF014337@zjod.net> Erik Anderson wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > Best-fit. First-fit. Least-recently-used. Largest-block. All the aforementioned with/without dynamic, sporadic and/or only-when-we- run-out-of-space recycling of free space. In the end, it probably doesn't matter how the device is used because it's always possible to construct a "worst case" scenario that hammers the daylights out of a very small section of available swap. And Murphy's Law makes me rather suspect the worst case might happen more than you might realize. I'd avoid using flash drives for swap, until your flash drive comes with at least a 10**8 read/write cycle guarantee. In the end, you'd be better off redirecting your flash drive budget to upgrading your main memory or disk drives. Unless I found a case of 'em in the street or the price drops to $5'idly, -S From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 12:55:23 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:55:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash drive as swap. -- jonner From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 13:02:26 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:02:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:27 AM > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > > > > On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > > > > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > > > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar > > setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > -- > > jonner > > > > OH.. we must believe Microsoft! They are omniscient and never make > mistakes or have vulnerabilities, right? > > This is at most "if our software does this, then spec sheet info says > the flash will do that.. statistically. Statistics also say that some > will die much sooner. What might would one lose or trash when swap is > lost or hiccups during transactions? > > Neat new game to play, right? How is this different than any other lifespan specification? I was just pointing out what microsoft had to say on the matter since this is an advertised feature of their new operating system. I wasn't necessarily endorsing the idea of using flash as swap or treating microsoft as an infallible source. I was simply adding one more data point to the discussion since it seemed relevant. You're free to ignore it if you wish. -- jonner From webmaster at mn-linux.org Mon Feb 12 13:36:19 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:36:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702121936.l1CJaJe09348@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want to Buy Subject: Intel 478 Processor I'm looking for a known good Intel 478 processor I can use to test with a non-booting Intel D845GEBV2 mother board. Any Celeron 1.7-2.8 or P4 1.4-3.06 with a 400 or 533 FSB should work. The current 2.5mhz P4 processor has a dead cooling fan. Anybody have something gathering dust? Thanks, Carl Seller Email address: pclinux at charter dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From erikerik at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 13:53:41 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:53:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. Mea culpa. I jumped right to the Q&A, missing the context. -Erik -- Erik Anderson http://andersonfam.org From sos at zjod.net Mon Feb 12 14:19:25 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:19:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702122019.l1CKJPfw001222@zjod.net> Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > > support. > > > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. > Well, given the way the blog article referenced starts out, we can safely ignore any conclusions about performance it draws. > Back in April, I posted a blog entry on the ReadyBoost > feature - the Windows Vista feature that allows you > to use a USB key as virtual memory in order to enhance > performance. Using virtual memory of any kind never enhances performance. It does allow you to run larger and/or more applications at the same time. Based on what I've seen scanning WWW sites about flash drives, most are only good for about a million write cycles... no more. Further, the top rated speeds aren't achieved until reading > 64 KB or writing > 2048 KB, which depending on how your box uses swap space, may be the wrong sizes for good swap performance. If you check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bandwidths, you'll find a table of various bus-speeds. Note that the maximum bus speed can limit the maximum device speed when devices are faster than the bus. There are dozens of other disclaimers about observed versus theoretical maximum rates of transfer, but in general, the faster a bus is rated, the faster it will be in practice. When visiting that page, compare USB "Hi-speed" against whatever kind of disks you have in your computer. Most modern disks operate at faster bus speeds than the fastest available USB. Which, in the end, means that if you want to slow your computer down, substitute a USB flash drive for your current disk-resident swap space (or, for that matter, any other kind of filesystem). Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Hope this helps, -S From cdf123 at cdf123.net Mon Feb 12 14:37:07 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:37:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <45D0CFF3.8030504@cdf123.net> Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: >> On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: >>> Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new >>> features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: >>> Q: Won't this wear out the drive? >>> A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are >>> smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research >>> shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we >>> support. >>> >>> I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... >>> >>> [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx >> This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device >> will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer >> media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is >> used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. > Actually, from what I read, this isn't about using flash as swap. Q: What happens when you remove the drive? A: When a surprise remove event occurs and we can't find the drive, we fall back to disk. Again, all pages on the device are backed by a page on disk. No exceptions. This isn't a separate page file store, but rather a cache to speed up access to frequently used data. It's using flash as swap "CACHE". The article states that the HD is very efficient at large sequential reads, and a majority of flash keys are good for small random reads. The technique they are talking about is *mirroring* the small random sections of the swap onto the flash disk. In that case, when you add a flash disk, you don't gain anything, but you loose the seek time of the HD for the smaller swap reads, and free up the HD for the long sequential reads. This is _NOT_ using flash as swap. When you talk about using flash as swap, then when you add a 1G flash drive to the system, you should have that much more free swap. The article does not cover that. According to the article, when you add a 1G flash drive, you don't get 1G of more swap, you get 1G of cache for the swap file. So if you are low on memory, adding a flash disk like this won't help at all. And as far as I know, there isn't an equivalent setup for this in Linux. And from reading the rest of the article, I'm not sure I'd want to do this anyway. Q: Isn't user data on a removable device a security risk? A: This was one of our first concerns and to mitigate this risk, we use AES-128 to encrypt everything that we write to the device. AES-128 encrypted swap? Add to that the complexity of trying to figure out what sections of swap are going to be small and random, weather the cache on the flash disk is current compared to the HD copy, timeouts trying to read flash drives during a "surprise remove", and trying to limit writes to keep your drive alive for "10+ years", I'm amazed that there's any noticeable performance improvement with this. It's no wonder they wanted to require 64bit CPUs. I'll admit, it's a cool idea and a good setup, but to quote Matt Ayers from the article: "adding RAM is still the best way to relieve memory pressure." From tj at kewlness.net Mon Feb 12 21:28:14 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:28:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> > > On 2/12/07, Chris Schumann wrote: > >>> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 >>> From: "T.J. Duchene" >>> >>> The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, >>> patented or >>> proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile >>> everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows >>> drives. >>> >> As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. >> >> Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is >> a >> large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna >> are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers >> and >> other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, >> and >> Livna for mplayer and xine. >> >> Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora >> Core >> unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new >> software. >> >> Chris >> >> In all fairness, you are quite correct, Chris. I stand corrected, and will clarify. The default Fedora kernel has NTFS disabled by default. In order to get it working, it requires replacement, installation of the ntfs module, or complete recompilation. My only real discontent with third party RPMs is that they don't always meet the QA standards of the Core distribution. Debian's "non-free" archive tends to meet the same QA and dependency standards as the "main" tree, and so integrates a bit better. On the other hand, I hear that Fedora Core and Fedora Extras will be merged in the next release, so it may alleviate a lot of problems. I just wish that Livna and other archives followed the dependency chains a bit better so that you could use packages from any of the repositories you choose equally. -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070212/1f37c571/attachment-0001.vcf From jima at beer.tclug.org Tue Feb 13 07:15:58 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:15:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> References: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > In all fairness, you are quite correct, Chris. > > I stand corrected, and will clarify. The default Fedora kernel has > NTFS disabled by default. In order to get it working, it requires > replacement, installation of the ntfs module, or complete > recompilation. My only real discontent with third party RPMs is that > they don't always meet the QA standards of the Core distribution. I'm going to have to call BS on this one. For Livna, at least (which does provide a kmod-ntfs RPM), they generally use the packaging guidelines from Fedora Extras, which are actually more stringent than those previously used by Fedora Core. Right now (as you said below), Core is in the process of getting merged into Extras, so the entire distribution is getting re-reviewed and brought up to the more defined standards of Extras. (This also enables the community to participate in maintenance of previously Core packages, at least theoretically.) So, no, I wouldn't claim third-party repositories don't meet the QA standards of Core; they often exceed them (although this is changing, fortunately). > On the other hand, I hear that Fedora Core and Fedora Extras will be > merged in the next release, so it may alleviate a lot of problems. I > just wish that Livna and other archives followed the dependency chains a > bit better so that you could use packages from any of the repositories > you choose equally. I've never really had an issue using Livna, aside from the occasional day or two lag between a new kernel and the corresponding kmod RPMs. As their FAQ says, most Livna contributors are involved in Fedora, as well. The other third-party repos, well...I suspect they'll be improving before too long. Jima From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 13 10:14:13 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:14:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702131614.l1DGEDQ30663@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want for Free Subject: Want a free computer I am looking for a free computer that is able to run linux on it. If someone would please help it would be great. I can pick up in the minneapolis area. Seller Email address: chomboteda at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From robbyt at robbyt.net Tue Feb 13 11:18:36 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:18:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off In-Reply-To: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <1f663090702130918t46b10854g3de43d8e7e3e4df1@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/07, admin at lctn.org wrote: > > I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. Frequently, > the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, > except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, connectivity > to the network is restored. > > Any ideas? > > > Raymond > check your ARP tables (on routers and PCs) for IP conflicts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070213/81264a81/attachment.htm From aa0p at arrl.net Tue Feb 13 14:29:58 2007 From: aa0p at arrl.net (K0SDH) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:29:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Help - Networking Windows and Linux Machines Message-ID: Am a green newby and need help/info regarding how to get my Windows and Linux computers to trade files over an ethernet. My initial write-up got quite lengthy so decided to go this route and ask for a volunteer; then I can send details direct and not use time/space on the TCLUG reflector. Thanks, Steve -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 16:01:01 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:01:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Help - Networking Windows and Linux Machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101e49ea0702131401y4281a506taeb99351fb753101@mail.gmail.com> To get Windows to see your files, I like to use Samba. Most people find Samba intimidating to set up, and it can be. The documentation for it is massive. However, I find this page extremely useful and a very quick way to get Samba going on your Linux end: http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/FastStart.html After you set this up, you should see your linux files (in the directories that you shared) in your "My Network Places" For linux to see your files on Windows, you need to enable file sharing, and the instructions for that vary a bit depending on the version of Windows you are using. Search your help file in Windows. Then on the linux side, then it depends if you are using KDE, Gnome, etc. as to what you do to see the windows network. In KDE and Gnome, you can browse your network similar to My Network Places, and should see your Windows machine there. I only use WORKGROUP networking, so if you are using DOMAINS and such, I don't know how much of a help this is. - Joey On 2/13/07, K0SDH wrote: > > Am a green newby and need help/info regarding how to get my Windows and > Linux computers to trade files over an ethernet. > > My initial write-up got quite lengthy so decided to go this route and ask > for a volunteer; then I can send details direct and not use time/space on > the TCLUG reflector. > > Thanks, > Steve > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070213/4fd11176/attachment.htm From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 16:52:39 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:52:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> Message-ID: As this conversation was sparked by the directions Ubuntu is/was going with binary drivers, you may want to read the latest update sent https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org Wed Feb 14 15:51:01 2007 From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (Joseph Key) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:51:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sun Ultra 60 Message-ID: <45D38445.70307@tomobiki.dyndns.org> I picked up a Sun Ultra 60 Creator 3D without a power supply. I was wondering if anyone has a spare power supply for this machine that I could purchase or borrow to test the system with. Thanks, Joseph Key From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Feb 15 10:01:05 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:01:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702151601.l1FG15Y32232@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell CRT Monitor Dell 21" CRT monitor for sale, originally made by Sony. Dell model number Ultrascan P1110. Monitor is in good working condition, does up to 1600x1200. Includes VGA and power cable. Monitor has 1.5" scratch in the upper middle. View the classified ad to see picture of monitor. (You can see the scratch in the upper middle). Larger picture available at link. Monitor is $25, pickup in Chaska. Seller Email address: silwenae at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Feb 15 17:20:22 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:20:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702152320.l1FNKMH30945@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: New DELL Desktop,Pentium D945/3.40GHz $650 Hello fellow TCLUGers! I have recently come across a deal I could not pass up. In turn, I have a few extra machines on my hands. The details: OptiPlex 745 Desktop,Pentium D945/3.40GHz,2X2M,800FSB 512MB,Non-ECC,667MHz DDR2 1x512 Dell USB Keyboard Dell USB Premium Optical 5-Button Mouse Integrated Video, Intel GMA3000 80GB SATA 3.0Gb/s 8MB DataBurst Cache 3.5 inch,1.44MB,Floppy Drive Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2,with Media 48X32 CDRW/DVD SATA Combo 3 Year Next BusinessDay Parts and Labor On-Site Response Warranty Retails for $915.00 Asking $650. This computer is Brand New and still in its original packaging. (In fact, I havent even opened it). Email me if interested! Andy Schmid ajs at cems.umn.edu Seller Email address: ajs at cems dot umn dot edu http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 09:04:49 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:04:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various providers. -- Donovan Niesen From dalan at visi.com Fri Feb 16 09:41:32 2007 From: dalan at visi.com (dalan at visi.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:41:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> I've had really bad experience