From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sat Dec 1 16:11:49 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:11:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] trade my socket 939 CPU for your socket 754 CPU? Message-ID: I thought my son and I had the same type of motherboard in our PCs but it turns out that his is socket 754 and mine is socket 939. I was going to trade out his AMD64 2800 for my old AMD64 3200, but the socket mismatch makes that impossible. So I'm hoping that someone here would be willing and able to trade his Socket 754 AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (or better) for my Socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 3200+. I'd drive to your place to make the trade, if you'd like. My son is visiting until tomorrow afternoon, so sooner would be better, but later will also work because he can bring the computer back in a few weeks. Thanks in advance! Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sat Dec 1 16:24:42 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:24:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] trade my socket 939 CPU for your socket 754 CPU? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let me add that I'd also throw in the socket 754 2800+ chip and the socket 939 mobo (Asus A8N-SLI; but it has a noisy [whetstone?] fan that would need replacement). --Mike On Sat, 1 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > I thought my son and I had the same type of motherboard in our PCs but it > turns out that his is socket 754 and mine is socket 939. I was going to > trade out his AMD64 2800 for my old AMD64 3200, but the socket mismatch makes > that impossible. So I'm hoping that someone here would be willing and able > to trade his Socket 754 AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (or better) for my Socket 939 AMD > Athlon 64 3200+. I'd drive to your place to make the trade, if you'd like. > > My son is visiting until tomorrow afternoon, so sooner would be better, but > later will also work because he can bring the computer back in a few weeks. > > Thanks in advance! > > Mike > From srcfoo at gmail.com Sun Dec 2 22:04:52 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:04:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting: Wed, December 12 7:00 - 8:30 Message-ID: <579c6fd30712022004r7d93a521p7c1b524e53aa46e9@mail.gmail.com> The next TCLUG meeting will feature a presentation on Nagios by its creator and lead developer Ethan Galstad. From canito at dalan.us Mon Dec 3 16:31:05 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT/WTB: PCMCIA Ethernet In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30712022004r7d93a521p7c1b524e53aa46e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <579c6fd30712022004r7d93a521p7c1b524e53aa46e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071203163105.5cfdn0ur9csco8w4@mail.dalan.us> Good Day TCLUG'ers: I am in need to a PCMCIA Ethernet card the sooner the better. I misplaced mine, and now in need they're no were to be found. Please if anyone has a 32bit card for sale I would appreciate it. Ah and it's going to be used in a Gentoo environment! One more thing I should add, I don't have a vehicle but can most likely pick it up in the Bloomington area. I may have transportation all day Wednesday! Thank you, David ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From jwreese0 at comcast.net Mon Dec 3 17:31:14 2007 From: jwreese0 at comcast.net (John Reese) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:31:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Query re: software dev. packages for kids Message-ID: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> I am looking for a small, kid-friendly development environment for games, modeling, etc. Something similar to Micro Worlds. I'm going to give my 12-year-old son a computer for Christmas. The host OS will be Linux. I will set up a VMware Windows box inside the host. Next time a virus bricks his Windows 'box' I'll simply clone an instance from the mother egg and he's off and running again. Just a dad's answer to a recurring problem. It's also a wonderful opportunity to get his head into Linux space. He will be able to use Open Office for his schoolwork. He's already wild about several Linux games and he plays them on Knoppix whenever he can. Now I need to find an IDE that facilitates development of simple graphical games, and/or a simple graphical modeling program. Any recommendations? John From florin at iucha.net Mon Dec 3 17:45:24 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:45:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Query re: software dev. packages for kids In-Reply-To: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> References: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> Message-ID: <20071203234523.GP4456@iucha.net> On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:31:14PM -0600, John Reese wrote: > I am looking for a small, kid-friendly development environment for > games, modeling, etc. Something similar to Micro Worlds. http://www.squeak.org florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071203/f5ad77b2/attachment.pgp From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com Mon Dec 3 21:02:41 2007 From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (Kelly Black) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:02:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Query re: software dev. packages for kids In-Reply-To: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> References: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> Message-ID: <20071204030240.GA24112@mail.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:31:14PM -0600, John Reese wrote: > Now I need to find an IDE that facilitates development of simple > graphical games, and/or a simple graphical modeling program. No IDE, but it has some decent howto's: pygame.org Or this one that I have recently found interesting: www.pyglet.org The Pyglet is interesting in that it is all Python and does not need any other dependencies for writing a simple game. Kelly From jack at jacku.com Mon Dec 3 22:44:45 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:44:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Query re: software dev. packages for kids In-Reply-To: <20071203234523.GP4456@iucha.net> References: <1196724674.10820.20.camel@1420> <20071203234523.GP4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <200712032244.45650.jack@jacku.com> On Monday 03 December 2007 5:45 pm, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:31:14PM -0600, John Reese wrote: > > I am looking for a small, kid-friendly development environment for > > games, modeling, etc. Something similar to Micro Worlds. > > http://www.squeak.org > > florin I'll see Florin's Squeak suggestion and raise this book: http://www.amazon.com/Squeak-Programming-Robots-Technology-Action/dp/1590594916 It's by Stephane Ducasse and is a nice introduction to squeak. On the subject of "robot programming" another good learning tool that is python based is "Guido van Robot" or GvR for short. You can find info at: http://gvr.sourceforge.net/index.php GvR is an adaptation of the Karel the Robot program for Pascal. A very good intro to basic programming concepts. Have fun! Jack -- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 5 21:15:35 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:15:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! Message-ID: My brother's birthday is on November 22. Once every 7 years, on average, his birthday falls on Thanksgiving. I was curious about when exactly that would occur in the future so I did something like this in the bash shell on a GNU system: for year in $(seq 2008 2060) ; do date -d 11/22/$year | grep Thu ; done And if you try it, you'll see what happens -- it fails starting in 2038. It also fails if you go back before 1970. By the way, this method works for any range of years: for year in $(seq 1960 2060) ; do cal 11 $year | egrep -B5 '^18 19 20 21 22' | grep November ; done That is, it shows you every November for the given range of years where the 22nd of the month falls on a Thursday. Thanksgiving wasn't on the fourth Thursday of November until the 1930s -- before that it was on the final Thursday of the month and therefore would always have been on 11/29 instead of on 11/22. Funny what you can do easily with these GNU programs, eh? Mike From florin at iucha.net Wed Dec 5 22:46:27 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 22:46:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 09:15:35PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > My brother's birthday is on November 22. Once every 7 years, on average, > his birthday falls on Thanksgiving. I was curious about when exactly that > would occur in the future so I did something like this in the bash shell > on a GNU system: > > for year in $(seq 2008 2060) ; do date -d 11/22/$year | grep Thu ; done Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2012 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2018 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2029 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2035 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2040 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2046 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2057 > And if you try it, you'll see what happens -- it fails starting in 2038. Works fine here. > It also fails if you go back before 1970. $ for year in $(seq 1776 2060) ; do date -d 11/22/$year | grep Thu> Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1781 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1787 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1792 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1798 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1804 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1810 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1821 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1827 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1832 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1838 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1849 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1855 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1860 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1866 Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1877 No it doesn't fail! > By the way, this method works for any range of years: > > for year in $(seq 1960 2060) ; do cal 11 $year | egrep -B5 '^18 19 20 21 22' | grep November ; done > > That is, it shows you every November for the given range of years where > the 22nd of the month falls on a Thursday. Thanksgiving wasn't on the > fourth Thursday of November until the 1930s -- before that it was on the > final Thursday of the month and therefore would always have been on 11/29 > instead of on 11/22. > > Funny what you can do easily with these GNU programs, eh? Mike, Tell the U admins to install a more modern Linux distro. And get 32 more bits and sprinkle them above the CPU - it works wonders 8^) Just make sure they don't fall onto the motherboard, as they might short something... Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071205/3711e723/attachment.pgp From trnja001 at umn.edu Wed Dec 5 23:18:40 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:18:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <47578630.1070105@umn.edu> Florin Iucha wrote: > On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 09:15:35PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> My brother's birthday is on November 22. Once every 7 years, on average, >> his birthday falls on Thanksgiving. I was curious about when exactly that >> would occur in the future so I did something like this in the bash shell >> on a GNU system: >> >> for year in $(seq 2008 2060) ; do date -d 11/22/$year | grep Thu ; done >> > > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2012 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2018 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2029 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2035 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2040 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2046 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 2057 > > >> And if you try it, you'll see what happens -- it fails starting in 2038. >> > > Works fine here. > > >> It also fails if you go back before 1970. >> > > $ for year in $(seq 1776 2060) ; do date -d 11/22/$year | grep Thu> > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1781 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1787 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1792 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1798 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1804 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1810 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1821 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1827 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1832 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1838 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1849 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1855 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1860 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1866 > Thu Nov 22 00:00:00 CST 1877 > > No it doesn't fail! > > >> By the way, this method works for any range of years: >> >> for year in $(seq 1960 2060) ; do cal 11 $year | egrep -B5 '^18 19 20 21 22' | grep November ; done >> >> That is, it shows you every November for the given range of years where >> the 22nd of the month falls on a Thursday. Thanksgiving wasn't on the >> fourth Thursday of November until the 1930s -- before that it was on the >> final Thursday of the month and therefore would always have been on 11/29 >> instead of on 11/22. >> >> Funny what you can do easily with these GNU programs, eh? >> > > Mike, > > Tell the U admins to install a more modern Linux distro. And get > 32 more bits and sprinkle them above the CPU - it works wonders 8^) > Just make sure they don't fall onto the motherboard, as they might > short something... > > Cheers, > florin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > He must be using a 32 bit Linux distro. All of the UMN ITLabs machines are 64 bit Ubuntu or SunOS with very modern hardware. Even the monitors are >20" LCDs. I estimate the ones in the Lind lab are 32" which are nice for programming or debugging when you have to look at a lot of code at once. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 00:06:51 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:06:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server Message-ID: Ubuntu offers both a desktop installation CD and a server installation CD. The server version offers very quick and easy LAMP installation: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/serveredition The desktop version offers X, Compiz, OpenOffice and a ton of other software programs: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition Suppose you are like me and you want it all. What's the easiest way to do an installation? Should I do a desktop installation and then pop in the server CD to install LAMP? Have any of you tried to install both? Mike From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Dec 6 00:42:39 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:42:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> There might be a difference in the installers. I think the server version may not have X by default, so the install is text mode. http://www.debianadmin.com/ubuntu-lamp-server-installation-with-screenshots.html Jeremy On Thursday 06 December 2007 12:06:51 am Mike Miller wrote: > Ubuntu offers both a desktop installation CD and a server installation CD. > The server version offers very quick and easy LAMP installation: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/serveredition > > The desktop version offers X, Compiz, OpenOffice and a ton of other > software programs: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition > > Suppose you are like me and you want it all. What's the easiest way to do > an installation? Should I do a desktop installation and then pop in the > server CD to install LAMP? > > Have any of you tried to install both? > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 00:52:59 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:52:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > Tell the U admins to install a more modern Linux distro. And get 32 > more bits and sprinkle them above the CPU - it works wonders 8^) Just > make sure they don't fall onto the motherboard, as they might short > something... I always knew there was a 2^31 limitation in 32-bit OS's but I thought that was an issue of memory addressing and file sizes. Now I see that some 32-bit programs are limited to using 2^32 seconds from 1970 to 2038. I hadn't heard before that this was not a problem for 64-bit machines. I tried the date code on an Altix machine and Netfinity (two MSI supercomputers) and sure enough, the 64-bit Altix had no problem and the 32-bit Netfinity couldn't deal with 2038. Are you saying that newer 32-bit Linux distros have a new version of 'date' that can deal with 2038? Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 00:58:46 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 00:58:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeremy wrote: > There might be a difference in the installers. I think the server > version may not have X by default, so the install is text mode. > > http://www.debianadmin.com/ubuntu-lamp-server-installation-with-screenshots.html That's what I've heard too. So far two people have recommended installing the desktop version and then using apt-get or somesuch to grab mysql, apache, php and install them. My concern is that Ubuntu Server has some special code for integrating and configuring those components that I won't get if I use apt-get. From their web page: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/serveredition In around 15 minutes, the time it takes to install Ubuntu Server Edition, you can have a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP) server up and ready to go. This feature, exclusive to Ubuntu Server Edition, is available at the time of installation. The LAMP option means you don't have to install and integrate each of the four separate LAMP components, a process which can take hours and requires someone who is skilled in the installation and configuration of the individual applications. Instead, you get increased security, reduced time-to-install, and reduced risk of misconfiguration, all of which results in a lower cost of ownership. Maybe there is a way to run the Ubuntu Server installation after running the Ubuntu Desktop installation and then just install the LAMP components. Mike From trnja001 at umn.edu Thu Dec 6 01:41:53 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 01:41:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> I don't recall any differences between the two with the installer or anything that is exclusive to one edition of Ubuntu. The only real difference is the default packages you get with the ISO. If you get Desktop, you can get all the software for Server. The opposite is true as well. However, I could be wrong. Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Jeremy wrote: > > >> There might be a difference in the installers. I think the server >> version may not have X by default, so the install is text mode. >> >> http://www.debianadmin.com/ubuntu-lamp-server-installation-with-screenshots.html >> > > > That's what I've heard too. So far two people have recommended installing > the desktop version and then using apt-get or somesuch to grab mysql, > apache, php and install them. My concern is that Ubuntu Server has some > special code for integrating and configuring those components that I won't > get if I use apt-get. From their web page: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/serveredition > > In around 15 minutes, the time it takes to install Ubuntu Server > Edition, you can have a LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP) server up > and ready to go. This feature, exclusive to Ubuntu Server Edition, is > available at the time of installation. > > The LAMP option means you don't have to install and integrate each of > the four separate LAMP components, a process which can take hours and > requires someone who is skilled in the installation and configuration > of the individual applications. Instead, you get increased security, > reduced time-to-install, and reduced risk of misconfiguration, all of > which results in a lower cost of ownership. > > Maybe there is a way to run the Ubuntu Server installation after running > the Ubuntu Desktop installation and then just install the LAMP components. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From florin at iucha.net Thu Dec 6 08:01:12 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 08:01:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 12:52:59AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > Are you saying that newer 32-bit Linux distros have a new version of 'date' > that can deal with 2038? I was implying that, but I was wrong. Both Ubuntu 7.10 and Centos 5.1 32 bit have the same problem you described. Which is kind of silly - there is no inherent limitation in the formatting part of the date program that would force it to use 32 bits on 32 platforms. I understand that hardware it what it is and you can only set 32 bits... But I suspect (maybe wrongly, again) that the old beards that maintain coreutils would just close a potential bug submission with 'works as intended' 8^) Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071206/6fc8ca5f/attachment.pgp From trnja001 at umn.edu Thu Dec 6 09:26:35 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:26:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <475814AB.6090407@umn.edu> Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 12:52:59AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> Are you saying that newer 32-bit Linux distros have a new version of 'date' >> that can deal with 2038? >> > > I was implying that, but I was wrong. Both Ubuntu 7.10 and Centos 5.1 > 32 bit have the same problem you described. Which is kind of silly - > there is no inherent limitation in the formatting part of the date > program that would force it to use 32 bits on 32 platforms. I > understand that hardware it what it is and you can only set 32 bits... > But I suspect (maybe wrongly, again) that the old beards that maintain > coreutils would just close a potential bug submission with 'works as > intended' 8^) > > Cheers, > florin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem "There is no easy fix for this problem for existing CPU /OS combinations. Changing the definition of |time_t| to use a 64-bit type would break binary compatibility for software, data storage, and generally anything dealing with the binary representation of time. Changing |time_t| to an unsigned 32-bit integer, effectively allowing timestamps to be accurate until the year 2106, would affect many programs that deal with time differences." I thought it would be an easy fix if two ints were stored, one for the past and the other for the future meaning the future one can be unsigned. What they're actually doing is waiting for users to adopt 64 bit hardware so the problem will fix itself. From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Dec 6 10:28:53 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:28:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Minnedemo In-Reply-To: <475814AB.6090407@umn.edu> References: <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <475814AB.6090407@umn.edu> Message-ID: <200712061028.53304.tclug@lizakowski.com> Is anyone going to MinneDemo tonight? They are doing a canned-food drive this time, so if you go, make sure to bring something (details below). Jeremy ----------------------- - More Beer: A Christmas Miracle? - More is merrier, so we've upped the free drink formula to include 2 drink tickets just for showing up, more if you bring items for the food drive. - Food Drive Most Wanted - Any non-perishable food item is appreciated. Below are the items most in need by the food shelf: Meats, Fish and Protein - canned tuna, ham or chicken, beef stew, chili, peanut butter, canned/dried beans Fruits and Vegetables - 100% fruit juice, canned fruits and vegetables, instant potatoes, fruit preserves Complete Meals - pasta & sauce, boxed meals, hearty soups Grains - cereal, rice Hygiene products - shampoo, deodorant, soap, diapers, toilet paper, feminine hygiene, toothpaste Cleaning Supplies - laundry detergent, paper towels, kitchen and bathroom cleaners - Forward To A Friend Details - MinneDemo is Minneapolis/St. Paul's premier networking and demo showcase event. Free beers/sodas courtesy of our sponsors Kinetic Data, Split Rock Partners, New Counsel, ipHouse and Electric Pulp. Admission, as always, is free. Do your part by inviting the 5 most interesting people you know and blog about it ahead of the event. Please RSVP at: http://minnedemo.org Thanks, Dan and Luke From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 12:19:27 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:19:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote: > I don't recall any differences between the two with the installer or > anything that is exclusive to one edition of Ubuntu. The only real > difference is the default packages you get with the ISO. If you get > Desktop, you can get all the software for Server. The opposite is true > as well. > > However, I could be wrong. Right, the thing is, you could be wrong, so I want to find someone who has already done it. This is the closest I've come to what sounds like a definite answer: http://www.ubuntugeek.com/installing-lamp-using-taskeldesktop-edition.html The second way to install is using TASKEL. a TASKEL is a software application tool that groups some packages into tasks and allows the user to install the packages from the task.. u can install it from the terminal by typing. sudo taskel install lamp-server I guess I'll try that -- using taskel. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 12:23:50 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:23:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 12:52:59AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> Are you saying that newer 32-bit Linux distros have a new version of >> 'date' that can deal with 2038? > > I was implying that, but I was wrong. Both Ubuntu 7.10 and Centos 5.1 > 32 bit have the same problem you described. Which is kind of silly - > there is no inherent limitation in the formatting part of the date > program that would force it to use 32 bits on 32 platforms. I > understand that hardware it what it is and you can only set 32 bits... > But I suspect (maybe wrongly, again) that the old beards that maintain > coreutils would just close a potential bug submission with 'works as > intended' 8^) Thanks to both Florin and Elvedin for looking this up. Very interesting. I had no idea that this was how we would be dealing with the 2038 problem on some of these machines - by replacing them with 64-bit machines. It is really a software problem, but I guess it's much more easily resolved in a 64-bit architecture so programmers are crossing their fingers and hoping all the 32-bit machines will be gone before 2038 gets here! I won't be surprised if air traffic controllers are using in 2038 machines that they bought in 1997. Mike From trnja001 at umn.edu Thu Dec 6 12:35:41 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:35:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> Message-ID: <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> I'm currently installing Desktop and Server right now and the only difference as Jeremy mentioned earlier is the lack of a X GUI for the server installer. I still maintain that no software package is exclusive to one edition of Ubuntu as it certainly wouldn't make sense if there were. Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote: > >> I don't recall any differences between the two with the installer or >> anything that is exclusive to one edition of Ubuntu. The only real >> difference is the default packages you get with the ISO. If you get >> Desktop, you can get all the software for Server. The opposite is >> true as well. >> >> However, I could be wrong. > > > Right, the thing is, you could be wrong, so I want to find someone who > has already done it. This is the closest I've come to what sounds > like a definite answer: > > http://www.ubuntugeek.com/installing-lamp-using-taskeldesktop-edition.html > > > The second way to install is using TASKEL. a TASKEL is a software > application tool that groups some packages into tasks and allows the > user to install the packages from the task.. u can install it from the > terminal by typing. > > sudo taskel install lamp-server > > I guess I'll try that -- using taskel. > > Mike From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 13:08:30 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:08:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> Message-ID: The packages for Ubuntu Server and Ubuntu Desktop use the same repository, thus the packages have the same installation scripts and default configurations. tasksel is handy for quickly installing your LAMP environment on a Ubuntu Desktop installer, or for installing your GNOME/KDE/XFCE environment on a server install. You can also pick and choose the packages you want using apt-get, aptitude, or synaptic. The server installation CD is a smaller ISO. I don't recall offhand what it doesn't have on the CD, most likely X11, GNOME, OpenOffice. The Desktop CD is a larger image that has the extras for the desktop environment . Once I have Ubuntu installed I don't use the CD, only the Ubuntu package repositories. There is also the Alternative installation CD, which is useful for special case installations, like if you want a Desktop installation but want the text based installer. For what you're looking for I'd go with the desktop CD. You'll have the GNOME, Firefox, etc. available while you're setting up your LAMP environment . Could be handy to find documentation. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Dec 6 14:54:24 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 14:54:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > For what you're looking for I'd go with the desktop CD. You'll have the > GNOME, Firefox, etc. available while you're setting up your LAMP > environment . Could be handy to find documentation. That's a good point. Thanks. Sounds like you think taksel is a good option, but has anyone on this list actually done a LAMP install using taksel? Does it really take less than 15 minutes to get it working? Mike From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 15:12:44 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:12:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> Message-ID: I haven't timed it using the server installation, but if you use the server CD and select the LAMP option is is very fast. After installation you'll have to install security updates, and the security updates will push you past 15 minutes. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 15:16:02 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:16:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712061316j46bec3ebs807dea3538b975b7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/07, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > > > For what you're looking for I'd go with the desktop CD. You'll have the > > GNOME, Firefox, etc. available while you're setting up your LAMP > > environment . Could be handy to find documentation. > > That's a good point. Thanks. > > Sounds like you think taksel is a good option, but has anyone on this list > actually done a LAMP install using taksel? Does it really take less than > 15 minutes to get it working? I guess I don't really understand this part of the quote from above: "The LAMP option means you don't have to install and integrate each of the four separate LAMP components, a process which can take hours" It seems to me that using apt-get to install each component does all the integration for you and is a painless and quick process. Maybe I'm missing something. Is there some extra configuration that this process does such as hardening the security of the installation, automatic pear package installs, etc? If this technique does a bunch of extra configuration that can "take hours" to complete, maybe it's not such a good idea without fully understanding what it's doing. Mike, if you take the taksel road, let us know if you noticing anything different. I'm too busy (lazy) to investigate. Eric From jeruvin at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 16:16:28 2007 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 16:16:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30712061316j46bec3ebs807dea3538b975b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> <579c6fd30712061316j46bec3ebs807dea3538b975b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0712061416v688c9d20g5c78bde776d7a0a@mail.gmail.com> "Suppose you are like me and you want it all. What's the easiest way to do an installation? Should I do a desktop installation and then pop in the server CD to install LAMP? Have any of you tried to install both?" With Ubuntu the difference between the server and desktop install is what packages are installed. Basically: Server: Terminal Desktop: GUI (also has terminal under the GUI stuff) You see Linux is like an Ogre... I mean an onion. There are layers to it. You have: Linux Kernel -> Terminal Type Stuff -> GUI Application (Gnome) -> GUI Applications. That's very, very basic (and could be better, but you get the idea). Servers don't need precious cpu cycles to be wasted on GUI stuff when everything works with config files and services running, which can all be done with the command line. If you take a server install and type "sudo apt-get install ubuntu desktop" it would install the GUI for you. It will most likely take quite a while, but you can do it. I like the plain old server for my servers as I don't spend a lot of time with updates to Open Office and other applications I don't need. There are a number of guides online to setup Apache, MySQL and PHP on a Linux platform. For those that would like to know every setting and/or to learn it could be beneficial to do the long way. the LAMP setup in Ubuntu is to get a quick setup without having to do any of that configuration stuff at the start. You'll have a server with those services running. You'll eventually have to change stuff, but it will at least hand out a web page after being installed. tasksel take a few minutes to run. It's just installing all the packages and doing a little bit of configuration to get your Apache, MySQL and PHP working. I'm not sure what it changes. When they say it only take 15 minutes compared to hours they are talking about the full install from CD using the LAMP option when prompted towards the end of the install. I skipped that part during the install and did a tasksel and it only took a few minutes. Sorry for the messy post, but I'm too tired today to go back and fix it to perfection. jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071206/d8525817/attachment.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 18:03:05 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:03:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:24 PM > > Thanks to both Florin and Elvedin for looking this up. Very interesting. > I had no idea that this was how we would be dealing with the 2038 problem > on some of these machines - by replacing them with 64-bit > machines. I think this a seriously wrong solution. Anyone concerned with the real world and embedded machines, etc, finds the 32-bit architecture adequate for data representation, qualtitatively more reliable (fewer things to go wrong), lower cost, and much lower power. In the great majority of storage and processing words, the integers and double precision math leave 32 bits per memory location unused. That space is opportunity for error and power consumption that does nothing for the main and critical application of such systems and networks. For Linux folk to make a decision that limits the use of Linux in 32-bit architectures for critical embedded applications seems mighty dumb to me. Not all Linux hosts are like gaming machines where it simply does not matter, and 64 bits makes a better game. To me, this indicates profound ignorance and/or oblivion by those programmers > It is > really a software problem, but I guess it's much more easily > resolved in a > 64-bit architecture so programmers are crossing their fingers and hoping > all the 32-bit machines will be gone before 2038 gets here! I won't be > surprised if air traffic controllers are using in 2038 machines that they > bought in 1997. There's MUCH more reason to use 32-bit architectures for a majority of embedded applications, and air traffic controllers really need thoroughly established compatibility with the data acquisition hardware's software (and networking) as well as their own legacy software tools. Buggy upgrades and "neat new technology" have no place in that world. Would you bet your life on the "newer stuff" being entirely bug free? Would you scrap years of test and performance, and pay megabucks for new "qualification tests" for no more benefit than "more bits and less reliability"? Seems like we should be far less trusting of the "expertise" of these "gurus" making such decisions. Seems practical for now, but seems to need both a statement of limitation and a workaround for critical or longer-term applications. Such corner cutting should not be buried and not flagged at all. Does the SE Linux permit such fragile algortihms? Chuck From florin at iucha.net Thu Dec 6 18:35:42 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:35:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071207003541.GX4456@iucha.net> On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 06:03:05PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > I think this a seriously wrong solution. Anyone concerned with the real > world and embedded machines, etc, finds the 32-bit architecture adequate for > data representation, qualtitatively more reliable (fewer things to go > wrong), lower cost, and much lower power. In the great majority of storage > and processing words, the integers and double precision math leave 32 bits > per memory location unused. That space is opportunity for error and power > consumption that does nothing for the main and critical application of such > systems and networks. For Linux folk to make a decision that limits the use > of Linux in 32-bit architectures for critical embedded applications seems > mighty dumb to me. Not all Linux hosts are like gaming machines where it > simply does not matter, and 64 bits makes a better game. To me, this > indicates profound ignorance and/or oblivion by those programmers Chuck, It's not the 'Linux folk'. It's coreutils which is a GNU package. BTW: florin at athena$ touch 20401120 history florin at athena$ ls -l history -rw-r--r-- 1 florin other 0 Sep 9 2008 history florin at athena$ uname -a SunOS athena 5.10 Generic_118855-33 i86pc i386 i86pc I suspect the embedded system will do fine in 2039 and beyond. Many of them are 8 or 16 bits, and still manage to do the required time calculations. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071206/5cbca8b5/attachment.pgp From bhurt at spnz.org Thu Dec 6 19:15:52 2007 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:15:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > Thanks to both Florin and Elvedin for looking this up. Very interesting. > I had no idea that this was how we would be dealing with the 2038 problem > on some of these machines - by replacing them with 64-bit machines. It is > really a software problem, but I guess it's much more easily resolved in a > 64-bit architecture so programmers are crossing their fingers and hoping > all the 32-bit machines will be gone before 2038 gets here! I won't be > surprised if air traffic controllers are using in 2038 machines that they > bought in 1997. In my opinion, we should have switched to 64-bit circa 1997. If you can't mmap your whole hard disk, you don't have enough bits of adress space, and you immediately start running into problems (for example, lseek breaking on large files). The server chips had all switched by that point. But the computer industry, like governments, does the rational thing only after all other possible alternatives are exhausted. Brian From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 19:26:27 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:26:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu desktop v. server In-Reply-To: <6eb23c4e0712061416v688c9d20g5c78bde776d7a0a@mail.gmail.com> References: <200712060042.39551.tclug@lizakowski.com> <4757A7C1.4020605@umn.edu> <475840FD.4090908@umn.edu> <579c6fd30712061316j46bec3ebs807dea3538b975b7@mail.gmail.com> <6eb23c4e0712061416v688c9d20g5c78bde776d7a0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <101e49ea0712061726h78a3418cqf18be41b73dab7d9@mail.gmail.com> Some other options if you want it all: Install Ubuntu Desktop or Alternate (I like Alternate just because it gives me more control over the installation). Install VMWare server. Then install Ubuntu server in VMWare. Why is this a good option? Because you don't need to dedicate a lot of resources for the server. 128MB, 256MB tops would take you a long ways if you have a limited machine. Then you can experiment until you are ready to set it up in your desktop environment. OR A previous suggestion was to install server, then using apt-get (or aptitude if you prefer), to install ubuntu-desktop package. I have done this, and though it takes a while to install this way, it does work. Good Luck! - Joey On Dec 6, 2007 4:16 PM, jason reynolds wrote: > "Suppose you are like me and you want it all. What's the easiest way to > do > an installation? Should I do a desktop installation and then pop in the > server CD to install LAMP? Have any of you tried to install both?" > > With Ubuntu the difference between the server and desktop install is what > packages are installed. Basically: > > Server: Terminal > Desktop: GUI (also has terminal under the GUI stuff) > > You see Linux is like an Ogre... I mean an onion. There are layers to it. > You have: > Linux Kernel -> Terminal Type Stuff -> GUI Application (Gnome) -> GUI > Applications. That's very, very basic (and could be better, but you get the > idea). > > Servers don't need precious cpu cycles to be wasted on GUI stuff when > everything works with config files and services running, which can all be > done with the command line. > > If you take a server install and type "sudo apt-get install ubuntu > desktop" it would install the GUI for you. It will most likely take quite a > while, but you can do it. > > I like the plain old server for my servers as I don't spend a lot of time > with updates to Open Office and other applications I don't need. > > There are a number of guides online to setup Apache, MySQL and PHP on a > Linux platform. For those that would like to know every setting and/or to > learn it could be beneficial to do the long way. the LAMP setup in Ubuntu is > to get a quick setup without having to do any of that configuration stuff at > the start. You'll have a server with those services running. You'll > eventually have to change stuff, but it will at least hand out a web page > after being installed. > > tasksel take a few minutes to run. It's just installing all the packages > and doing a little bit of configuration to get your Apache, MySQL and PHP > working. I'm not sure what it changes. When they say it only take 15 minutes > compared to hours they are talking about the full install from CD using the > LAMP option when prompted towards the end of the install. I skipped that > part during the install and did a tasksel and it only took a few minutes. > > Sorry for the messy post, but I'm too tired today to go back and fix it to > perfection. > > jason > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071206/fcefd756/attachment.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 19:46:11 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:46:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071207003541.GX4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha > > On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 06:03:05PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > I think this a seriously wrong solution. Anyone concerned with the real > > world and embedded machines, etc, finds the 32-bit architecture > adequate for > > data representation, qualtitatively more reliable (fewer things to go > > wrong), lower cost, and much lower power. In the great > majority of storage > > and processing words, the integers and double precision math > leave 32 bits > > per memory location unused. That space is opportunity for > error and power > > consumption that does nothing for the main and critical > application of such > > systems and networks. For Linux folk to make a decision that > limits the use > > of Linux in 32-bit architectures for critical embedded > applications seems > > mighty dumb to me. Not all Linux hosts are like gaming > machines where it > > simply does not matter, and 64 bits makes a better game. To me, this > > indicates profound ignorance and/or oblivion by those programmers > > Chuck, > > It's not the 'Linux folk'. It's coreutils which is a GNU package. Better, but still a problem. Thanks for the correction. > > BTW: > > I suspect the embedded system will do fine in 2039 and beyond. Many > of them are 8 or 16 bits, and still manage to do the required time > calculations. Yes, but... :-) Some embedded systems are indeed the 8 and 16 bit micros, but very many of the "more serious" systems have VME (and similar) computer systems of several boards extent, and these have a networked runtime environment at terminals much like an office network of equipment and OS, etc. Two part connectors are required for connection reliability in higher shock and vibration environments or most any gear that's potentially used in a battle zone. Otherwise, the drive for "COTS" (commercial off-the shelf) is very high, and the need to use Linux is strong. Aircraft systems, helicopted systems, ship systems, and much more are all equipped with ths sort of computers and networking that is at risk by such stuff. More critical redundant systems usually have customized operating systems that are thoroughly checked and proofed, so such "features" seldom go into released gear. Chuck From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Thu Dec 6 19:51:25 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:51:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> I find this conversation very interesting, but here is another perspective to think about. 2038 is 30 years away. Will you be using the same type of computer in 30 years? No, I'm guessing not. Think of what computers were 30 years ago. Will you be using software after 30 years? I don't think so, it won't run on your new operating systems, because so much will have changed. It's possible you will use the same software, but it will be a much later / fixed version. What about data stored in databases? I'm guessing date/time fields will be converted as needed. So, for future use, I do not see any problems. We could be computing on 65536 bit processors by then, who knows. So the remaining issue for today is that of future calculations, or in some cases, calculating backwards to the past. If this were a real serious issue, there would be effort being put in to it now. Where I work today, we use a product that will not store a null date. If you leave a date blank, it stores it as 1/1/3000. Obviously an arbitrary date, but it shows that our vendor is not having trouble storing this date in our current DB2 database. I don't know if our database is 64-bit or not, but I do know the product itself is only 32-bit. So, in a nutshell, the point of all this is that I am not seeing an issue that needs a lot of attention. But that is my 2 cents. - Joey On Dec 6, 2007 7:15 PM, Brian Hurt wrote: > > > On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > > > Thanks to both Florin and Elvedin for looking this up. Very > interesting. > > I had no idea that this was how we would be dealing with the 2038 > problem > > on some of these machines - by replacing them with 64-bit machines. It > is > > really a software problem, but I guess it's much more easily resolved in > a > > 64-bit architecture so programmers are crossing their fingers and hoping > > all the 32-bit machines will be gone before 2038 gets here! I won't be > > surprised if air traffic controllers are using in 2038 machines that > they > > bought in 1997. > > In my opinion, we should have switched to 64-bit circa 1997. If you can't > mmap your whole hard disk, you don't have enough bits of adress space, and > you immediately start running into problems (for example, lseek breaking > on large files). The server chips had all switched by that point. > > But the computer industry, like governments, does the rational thing only > after all other possible alternatives are exhausted. > > Brian > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071206/31ad33ce/attachment.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 19:56:35 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 19:56:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hurt > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:16 PM > > > In my opinion, we should have switched to 64-bit circa 1997. That's both profoundly naive of how important having different CPU type really is for differing applications The "excess bits" in data flows and control flows are points of potential failure, and consume power, and waste time, and cost more. In spacecraft, extra pounds cost millions, extra watts do also. Cheaper in fighter aircraft, etc, but still a great concern and expense. Such a view is also very narrowly focussed on an equivalent of a "desktop gaming machine" as the only environment that matters, as if software development targets the same exact (trivial, and inconsequential) environment. In a bigger world, errors and needs to reboot can cost lives, and possibly hundreds of lives at a time. Uh, I disagree that the decision is so simple or so singular an issue outside the game room. :-) Chuck From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Thu Dec 6 21:13:38 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:13:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> > > So the remaining issue for today is that of future calculations, or in > some > cases, calculating backwards to the past. If this were a real serious > issue, there would be effort being put in to it now. ... > So, in a nutshell, the point of all this is that I am not seeing an issue > that needs a lot of attention. But that is my 2 cents. The seriousness of the issue is not whether 'date' can or can't correctly display a date beyond or before some other date. The seriousness of the issue comes from the person who wants to use 'date' for a specific task and what the cost/benefit is for someone to use 'date' over some other tool or even writing their own. Just because this may not have been a serious issue for someone yet, doesn't mean that it can't be a serious issue for someone else. > Where I work today, > we > use a product that will not store a null date. If you leave a date > blank, > it stores it as 1/1/3000. Obviously an arbitrary date, but it shows that > our vendor is not having trouble storing this date in our current DB2 > database. I don't know if our database is 64-bit or not, but I do know > the > product itself is only 32-bit. > This ties into the response above in that DB2 is a different tool that can be used to work with dates. The way it implements and uses dates is completely different than how GNU date does so the question of 64 bit vs. 32 bits in the architecture becomes less relevant. What's more relevant is whether DB2 is the proper tool to use for the task that needs to be accomplished. From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Dec 6 21:58:52 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:58:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10459.1196999932@skuld.wookimus.net> The problem isn't whether or not you're using the same computer hardware or software thirty years from now. The problem with the 2038 bug is with financial forcasting and banking software. Let's say that in 2009, you decide to buy a house on a 30 year mortgage. Wouldn't you like to know that the computer that is used to compute your interest and payment schedule would understand how to do so correctly? That would be my 2-cents, and perhaps a whole lot more. Chad From thurianknight at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 07:29:38 2007 From: thurianknight at gmail.com (Dave Sherman) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 07:29:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bdea6e30712070529k50f9bc5ke0d941364078b34c@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2007 7:51 PM, Joey Rockhold wrote: > I find this conversation very interesting, but here is another perspective > to think about. > > 2038 is 30 years away. Will you be using the same type of computer in 30 > years? No, I'm guessing not. Think of what computers were 30 years ago. > Will you be using software after 30 years? I don't think so, it won't run > on your new operating systems, because so much will have changed. It's > possible you will use the same software, but it will be a much later / fixed > version. What about data stored in databases? I'm guessing date/time > fields will be converted as needed. This is the exact same argument that was used in the 1960's and 70's, when some programmers noticed that they were going to have a Y2K bug if their 6-digit date code was still around in the year 2000. How much you want to bet that there will still be 1990's-era and 2000's era hardware and software still in production use by 2038? We will probably see the same IT boom starting in about 2036, that we did in 1998 -- maybe on a lesser scale. I don't know much about GNU date, but I think I know something about human nature :-) -- Dave Sherman MCSA, MCSE, CCNA Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware. From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Fri Dec 7 08:15:23 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 08:15:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This isn't just a "pie in the sky" future issue. If you purchase a new house today with a 30 year mortgage, when will your last payment be? We're knocking on the door right now! And I've heard tell of mortgages of up to 60 years. That's well into the danger zone. Wonder how the interest calculations would work on that?!? Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Cole > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 6:03 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 12:24 PM > > > > Thanks to both Florin and Elvedin for looking this up. Very > interesting. > > I had no idea that this was how we would be dealing with the 2038 > problem > > on some of these machines - by replacing them with 64-bit > > machines. > > I think this a seriously wrong solution. Anyone concerned with the real > world and embedded machines, etc, finds the 32-bit architecture adequate > for > data representation, qualtitatively more reliable (fewer things to go > wrong), lower cost, and much lower power. In the great majority of > storage > and processing words, the integers and double precision math leave 32 bits > per memory location unused. That space is opportunity for error and power > consumption that does nothing for the main and critical application of > such > systems and networks. For Linux folk to make a decision that limits the > use > of Linux in 32-bit architectures for critical embedded applications seems > mighty dumb to me. Not all Linux hosts are like gaming machines where it > simply does not matter, and 64 bits makes a better game. To me, this > indicates profound ignorance and/or oblivion by those programmers > > > It is > > really a software problem, but I guess it's much more easily > > resolved in a > > 64-bit architecture so programmers are crossing their fingers and hoping > > all the 32-bit machines will be gone before 2038 gets here! I won't be > > surprised if air traffic controllers are using in 2038 machines that > they > > bought in 1997. > > There's MUCH more reason to use 32-bit architectures for a majority of > embedded applications, and air traffic controllers really need thoroughly > established compatibility with the data acquisition hardware's software > (and > networking) as well as their own legacy software tools. > > Buggy upgrades and "neat new technology" have no place in that world. > > Would you bet your life on the "newer stuff" being entirely bug free? > Would > you scrap years of test and performance, and pay megabucks for new > "qualification tests" for no more benefit than "more bits and less > reliability"? > > Seems like we should be far less trusting of the "expertise" of these > "gurus" making such decisions. Seems practical for now, but seems to need > both a statement of limitation and a workaround for critical or longer- > term > applications. Such corner cutting should not be buried and not flagged at > all. Does the SE Linux permit such fragile algortihms? > > > Chuck > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From johntrammell at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 10:29:58 2007 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 10:29:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2007 9:13 PM, Isaac Atilano wrote: [snip] My $0.02: There are two distinct classes of things that need timestamps: [1] times of physical system events, e.g. inode updates [2] times of nonsystem events (calendar, genealogy, mortgage calculators, etc.) A single 32-bit integer is OK for [1] (caveat: embedded systems running continuously for the next 30 years are in for a rude awakening). Your desktop won't be running in 30 years. Sorry, it just won't. A single 32-bit integer is not OK for [2]. Many good examples of this appear in this thread. This is yet just another instance of people using something in a way its designers did not intend it to be used. One solution I heard on the Perl 6 list was to use a 64-bit floating point value for time, and to reset the Epoch to 1 January 2000. I'm not sure what I think about this. J From drue at therub.org Fri Dec 7 11:14:13 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:14:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 10:29:58AM -0600, John J. Trammell wrote: > One solution I heard on the Perl 6 list was to use a 64-bit floating > point value for time, and to reset the Epoch to 1 January 2000. I'm > not sure what I think about this. Time sucks - timezones, DST, 2k38 bug.. If anyone is actually considering creating a new epoch, I will organize protest marches.. "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum (so lets not make more. please. pretty pretty please.) Dan From johntrammell at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 11:24:24 2007 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:24:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2007 11:14 AM, Dan Rue wrote: > Time sucks - timezones, DST, 2k38 bug.. If anyone is actually > considering creating a new epoch, I will organize protest marches.. > > "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to > choose from." -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum > > (so lets not make more. please. pretty pretty please.) > Don't shoot the messenger. http://tiny.cc/lRmsZ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071207/1a58c04f/attachment.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Dec 7 11:51:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 11:51:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, John J. Trammell wrote: > [2] times of nonsystem events (calendar, genealogy, mortgage > calculators, etc.) > > A single 32-bit integer is not OK for [2]. Many good examples of this > appear in this thread. This is yet just another instance of people > using something in a way its designers did not intend it to be used. From drue at therub.org Fri Dec 7 12:10:11 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:10:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 11:24:24AM -0600, John J. Trammell wrote: > On Dec 7, 2007 11:14 AM, Dan Rue <[1]drue at therub.org> wrote: > > Time sucks - timezones, DST, 2k38 bug.. If anyone is actually > > considering creating a new epoch, I will organize protest marches.. > > > > "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to > > choose from." -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum > > > > (so lets not make more. please. pretty pretty please.) > > > > Don't shoot the messenger. Sorry, John. I meant "lets" as in the community of smart people that create and use these things, not you personally. Dan From johntrammell at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 12:28:46 2007 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:28:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2007 12:10 PM, Dan Rue wrote: > Sorry, John. I meant "lets" as in the community of smart people that > create and use these things, not you personally. > No apology needed--I think you and I are on the same page about this. A couple of thoughts come to mind from the "billion-second timeout" with AOLserver: - Having a timeout of anything more than about an hour is silly. Is anyone really going to wait that long? - Any server worth its salt would let you set a flag (e.g. timeout of -1) to indicate no timeout - Again they're not using time_t to refer to specific system events, but instead some hypothetical ((very!) distant) future event - Software should be developed with an eye on its boundary conditions, e.g. "I am using a 16-bit int for this field, so we had better not have more than about 65,000 different planes in the air...". - Recurring issues like this make me think that some sort of software engineer certification might be a good idea. Or maybe bringing back the pillory. J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071207/5a45be0e/attachment.htm From cdf123 at cdf123.net Fri Dec 7 12:35:41 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 12:35:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> John J. Trammell wrote: > On Dec 6, 2007 9:13 PM, Isaac Atilano wrote: > [snip] > One solution I heard on the Perl 6 list was to use a 64-bit floating > point value for time, and to reset the Epoch to 1 January 2000. I'm > not sure what I think about this. > > J Of course, because floating point arithmetic never has issues with accuracy. #!/usr/bin/perl -w my $float = 0, $interval = 0.1, $max = 10; while($float < $max){ $float += $interval; print "$float\n"; } oh wait! And for those that think the extra decimal places at the end are no big deal, try counting the number of loops it goes through. `./floats.pl | wc -l` = 101 oops! Thats one too many. I don't have a solution to the 2038 issue, but I draw the line on using approximated values for anything that requires accuracy. /my $0.02 Chris Frederick From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Dec 7 12:44:18 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 12:44:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, John J. Trammell wrote: > - Recurring issues like this make me think that some sort of software > engineer certification might be a good idea. So that it can be rescinded? I like your idea! ;-) Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Dec 7 13:04:12 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:04:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Chris Frederick wrote: > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > my $float = 0, $interval = 0.1, $max = 10; > while($float < $max){ $float += $interval; print "$float\n"; } > > oh wait! And for those that think the extra decimal places at the end > are no big deal, try counting the number of loops it goes through. > > `./floats.pl | wc -l` = 101 > > oops! Thats one too many. Very clever. That kind of problem arises in many applications. The usual form is something like IF foo == bar THEN DO baz People have to think about what they mean by "equals" when they write that kind of code. Example from GNU Octave: octave> sqrt(3)^2==3 ans = 0 octave> sqrt(3^2)==3 ans = 1 octave> sqrt(3^2)==sqrt(3)^2 ans = 0 That is, the square root of 3 when squared does not equal 3, but the square root of a squared 3 does equal three. It can help to develop "approximately equals" functions that will return Boolean TRUE if the two values are close enough for the application. Mike -- Michael B. Miller, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Division of Epidemiology and Community Health and Institute of Human Genetics University of Minnesota http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/ From josh at tcbug.org Sat Dec 8 10:14:01 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 10:14:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200712081014.07412.josh@tcbug.org> On Friday 07 December 2007 12:44:18 pm Mike Miller wrote: > On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, John J. Trammell wrote: > > - Recurring issues like this make me think that some sort of software > > engineer certification might be a good idea. > > So that it can be rescinded? I like your idea! ;-) > > Mike > One of the biggest problems with "Open Source" is that there's far too many programming languages out there that have lowered the cost of entry in to programming to the point where just about anyone can write a 'working' program. Couple that with how in-vogue it appears to be to be a computer geek and you have all this software being cranked out by people who can 'write code' but don't understand 'programming' My Dad used to say, there's a difference between telling time and building clocks. Anyways, it would be sort of nice if there was a board of professional programmers who could go around and certify Open Source projects so at least you'd have something to go by. Before you flame on, I'm fully aware of how unrealistic this would be to actually impliment. :) But it would still be nice. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071208/bd28cb85/attachment.pgp From bhurt at spnz.org Sat Dec 8 11:42:26 2007 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:42:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Chuck Cole wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hurt >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:16 PM >> >> >> In my opinion, we should have switched to 64-bit circa 1997. > > That's both profoundly naive of how important having different CPU type > really is for differing applications I thought I had explicitly made clear that this was for desktops. Servers had already gone 64-bit by 1997. And it was circa 1997 that I read an article in EEtimes that indicated a new era has dawned- for the first time in history, Moto had sold more 68000's than 6502's. > > The "excess bits" in data flows and control flows are points of potential > failure, and consume power, and waste time, and cost more. > > In spacecraft, extra pounds cost millions, extra watts do also. Cheaper in > fighter aircraft, etc, but still a great concern and expense. Unfortunately for this argument, the number of data flows, control flows, etc., a CPU has is not strongly correlated with the number of bits in it's word size- as proof positive of this, compare the complexity and size of a earlt Dec Alpha 21061 (a 64-bit chip, 1.68 million transistors, 21W power dissaption) with a later Intel Pentium-4 (a 32-bit chip, 178 million transitors 110W power dispation). The pentium has 10 times the transistor count, five times the power dissapation, and half the bits. Also, remember what my real argument was- "If you can't mmap your whole hard disk, you don't have enough bits in your address space". If you're working in an embedded project that has a few 10's of meg of ram, and few 100's of meg of rom ("hard disk"), then 32 bits is fine (16 bits is small). Brian From bhurt at spnz.org Sat Dec 8 11:43:48 2007 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:43:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <10459.1196999932@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <10459.1196999932@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > The problem isn't whether or not you're using the same computer hardware > or software thirty years from now. The problem with the 2038 bug is > with financial forcasting and banking software. Let's say that in 2009, > you decide to buy a house on a 30 year mortgage. Wouldn't you like to > know that the computer that is used to compute your interest and payment > schedule would understand how to do so correctly? And, as a side note, the attitude of "this software won't be in use 30 years from now" is how we got into the Y2K problem. Brian From bhurt at spnz.org Sat Dec 8 13:06:03 2007 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:06:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, John J. Trammell wrote: > - Software should be developed with an eye on its boundary conditions, e.g. > "I am using a 16-bit int for this field, so we had better not have more than > about 65,000 different planes in the air...". I have personally come to the opinion that the main use of having more than one type of integer is to allow the programmer to pick the wrong one. Using only a single word, or a partial-word, to represent an integer is an *optimization*, not a data type consideration. Having the programmer pick what word size to hold the integer in is a fraught with potiential bugs and portability problems as having the programmer pick what register to hold the integer in. This isn't just about the Y2038 bug- although that's an example. It's about the whole C99 long long fiasco. It's about the 32-bit limit that Java's starting to hit hard- Java used int's to index arrays, so you can't have an array with more than 2^31 elements. Etc. Brian From bhurt at spnz.org Sat Dec 8 13:10:43 2007 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:10:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> References: <20071206044627.GU4456@iucha.net> <20071206140112.GV4456@iucha.net> <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> Message-ID: While I'm on a "computing curmudgeon" kick: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007, Chris Frederick wrote: > #!/usr/bin/perl -w > my $float = 0, $interval = 0.1, $max = 10; > while($float < $max){ $float += $interval; print "$float\n"; } > > oh wait! And for those that think the extra decimal places at the end > are no big deal, try counting the number of loops it goes through. This is the main problem I have with using floats for time values: I don't think you should be allowed to use floats until you've have a course in Numerical Analysis, and can talk intelligibly about round off errors, numerically stable vr.s unstable algorithms, etc. That said, floating point will quite happily represent *exactly* all integers in the range -2^52 to +2^52. Giving us an extra 21 bits of accuracy over 32-bit signed integers. > > `./floats.pl | wc -l` = 101 > > oops! Thats one too many. This is a fencepost error, not a floating point inaccuracy. Brian From cncole at earthlink.net Sat Dec 8 12:57:17 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:57:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Hurt [mailto:bhurt at spnz.org] > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 11:42 AM > To: Chuck Cole > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: RE: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! > > > > > On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Hurt > >> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 7:16 PM > >> > >> > >> In my opinion, we should have switched to 64-bit circa 1997. > > > > That's both profoundly naive of how important having different CPU type > > really is for differing applications > > I thought I had explicitly made clear that this was for desktops. > Servers > had already gone 64-bit by 1997. And it was circa 1997 that I read an > article in EEtimes that indicated a new era has dawned- for the > first time > in history, Moto had sold more 68000's than 6502's. Your world is commercial IT by that description. The universe of Linux is bigger. When designing a new embedded flight system, basic models of dataflows, etc are benchmarked in order to determine whether the memory usage of desktop crud doubles the power and weight or not. The criteria and engineering efforts applied are considerably more involved than what you seem aware of. > > > > > The "excess bits" in data flows and control flows are points of > potential > > failure, and consume power, and waste time, and cost more. > > > > In spacecraft, extra pounds cost millions, extra watts do also. > Cheaper in > > fighter aircraft, etc, but still a great concern and expense. > > Unfortunately for this argument, the number of data flows, control flows, > etc., a CPU has is not strongly correlated with the number of > bits in it's > word size- as proof positive of this, compare the complexity and > size of a > earlt Dec Alpha 21061 (a 64-bit chip, 1.68 million transistors, 21W power > dissaption) with a later Intel Pentium-4 (a 32-bit chip, 178 million > transitors 110W power dispation). The pentium has 10 times the > transistor > count, five times the power dissapation, and half the bits. > > Also, remember what my real argument was- "If you can't mmap your whole > hard disk, you don't have enough bits in your address space". If you're > working in an embedded project that has a few 10's of meg of ram, and few > 100's of meg of rom ("hard disk"), then 32 bits is fine (16 bits is > small). > > Brian > Your comments are irrelevant or wrong outside the small "snow dome" of architecture you are addressing. Chuck From florin at iucha.net Sat Dec 8 19:29:30 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 19:29:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <101e49ea0712061751s550603f1v185e8fd858c84f3f@mail.gmail.com> <1196997218.17961.1225278351@webmail.messagingengine.com> <68dbb6fe0712070829m2a27ee9dqa461a29192dc0976@mail.gmail.com> <20071207171412.GT69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712070924xfdc5813ofe51fe305dfad7fc@mail.gmail.com> <20071207181010.GU69406@therub.org> <68dbb6fe0712071028x7b49aa39id5fc98cc1d197850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071209012930.GH4456@iucha.net> On Sat, Dec 08, 2007 at 02:06:03PM -0500, Brian Hurt wrote: > I have personally come to the opinion that the main use of having more > than one type of integer is to allow the programmer to pick the wrong one. Cute, but wrong. It's like saying - having more than one size of screw/screwdriver/hammer/engine/boat is wrong. > Using only a single word, or a partial-word, to represent an integer is an > *optimization*, not a data type consideration. Having the programmer pick > what word size to hold the integer in is a fraught with potiential bugs > and portability problems as having the programmer pick what register to > hold the integer in. Sure. It's the same problem as building a car with a small engine. It might be 'efficient', or 'inadequate', depending on a variety of conditions. > This isn't just about the Y2038 bug- although that's an example. It's > about the whole C99 long long fiasco. It's about the 32-bit limit that > Java's starting to hit hard- Java used int's to index arrays, so you can't > have an array with more than 2^31 elements. Etc. If you have an array with more than 2^31 elements, your Java program will run like a snail - your design is most likely wrong, or you picked the wrong language to solve your problem. Hrm... somebody once said that the reason there are many of X is so you can pick th wrong one. I wonder if it still applies 8^) florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071208/bac00f71/attachment.pgp From josh at tcbug.org Sat Dec 8 21:55:15 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 21:55:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: References: <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> Message-ID: <200712082155.18725.josh@tcbug.org> On Saturday 08 December 2007 01:10:43 pm Brian Hurt wrote: > > `./floats.pl | wc -l` = 101 > > > > oops! Thats one too many. > > This is a fencepost error, not a floating point inaccuracy. > > Brian > It's a fencepost error caused by a floating point inaccuracy. In real world math, you'd add .1 to 0 until it got to exactly 10, which would fail the loop conditional. In a computer's floating point math rounding errors start to creep in, and what should be your last iteration at 10 that stops the loop ends up being slightly less than 10 and allows the loop to iterate one too many times. very end of the output.... 9.79999999999998 9.89999999999998 9.99999999999998 10.1 In python it's even more amusing.... float = 0.0 interval = .1 max = 10.0 while float < max: float += interval print float very end of input.... 9.6 9.7 9.8 9.9 10.0 <--- 10.0 is less than 10.0! 10.1 Stick to your embedded systems. Leave the high-level languages to people that can handle them. ;) -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071208/5452b378/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 9 01:27:27 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 01:27:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] the 2038 bug already bit me! In-Reply-To: <200712082155.18725.josh@tcbug.org> References: <4759927D.8090606@cdf123.net> <200712082155.18725.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > On Saturday 08 December 2007 01:10:43 pm Brian Hurt wrote: > >>> `./floats.pl | wc -l` = 101 >>> >>> oops! Thats one too many. >> >> This is a fencepost error, not a floating point inaccuracy. >> >> Brian >> > > It's a fencepost error caused by a floating point inaccuracy. Isn't a fencepost error caused by counting incorrectly (one two few) how many items you need to fill some range? Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error#Fencepost_error I think the error pointed out in the example is not of that kind, not a fencepost error. The counting scheme was correct but rounding error changed the stopping point of the loop. If it weren't for the rounding error, it would have worked fine (you can show this by multiplying appropriate values by 10 and running again). Mike From teeahr1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 13:04:25 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:04:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs, gives "hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt" Message-ID: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> When I boot the CD, before it gets to the graphical installer, I notice it hangs for a long time on: hda: cache flushes not supported hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt hda: lost interrupt hda: lost interrupt It eventually gets into the installer, but all the parts where it's checking hardware seem to hang forever (really, ten minutes to find the CDROM), and once I finally get to partitioning, it fails trying to make / (after hanging for literally hours and letting it run overnight). I should note that the drive is good, and this still happens after swapping it out. Ooh, now I'm getting a new one, just as I type this. No disk drive was detected. If you know the name of your disk drive... Well shit. Also, the fluxbuntu installer rolls right through without a problem. I don't even know how to start looking for an answer to this. Anyone got any tips? From andyzib at gmail.com Mon Dec 10 14:03:23 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:03:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs, gives "hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt" In-Reply-To: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> References: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Check for issues related to your ATA/SATA controller and kernel version. Are you installing on older hardware? You may want to dig around in the advanced options when booting the installer. I think you can type help at the boot prompt, or something. Don't recall exactly what the option is... :) -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From teeahr1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:27:37 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:27:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs, gives "hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt" In-Reply-To: References: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200712111127.38167.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> On Monday December 10 2007 14:03:23 Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > Check for issues related to your ATA/SATA controller and kernel version. > > Are you installing on older hardware? You may want to dig around in > the advanced options when booting the installer. I think you can type > help at the boot prompt, or something. Don't recall exactly what the > option is... :) Indeed I am. It's an eleven year old Aptiva (yeah, I'm pretty much just doing it for the challenge). It is definitely the controller, I plugged in a controller card and ran the drives through it, and although it still hung it hung somewhere else. Now I just need to get specs for this old beast, because I don't know what kind of controller I have. If anyone can tell me where to find specs for old old old IBM machines, I'd really appreciate it (their website seems to be no help, but I might be missing the obvious). Also, for those following along at home, good sources of information that I've found include... the debian installer guide - http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/index.html (especially section 5.2 Boot Parameters) the linux boot prompt HOWTO - http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/BootPrompt-HOWTO.html best regards- p. From tpenney at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 11:57:14 2007 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:57:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disk usage discrepancy Message-ID: <5c596d0e0712110957g19dcf7a1h93ef432b3a949751@mail.gmail.com> Can anyone help me understand this? Why is there such a huge discrepancy in the amount of drive space being used? I have about 5 million jpg images ( about 100Gig) which I am moving from a local file system to an nfs share. The files use a lot more space on the new file system then they do on the old. The both are ext3 file systems. The block sizes are the same. There are a different number of Inodes per group and inode blocks per group but I'm not sure what that means. 95440088 on the old 114727908 on the new the old is a fedora 2 box with a plain old 250gig ide drive the new is a centos 5 box with software raid 5 across 3 500 gig sata drives here are some details: Old: [user at old devmlsserver]$ du --max-depth=2 retsPhotoCache/ 229488 retsPhotoCache/2/0 553248 retsPhotoCache/2/2 279584 retsPhotoCache/2/1 1230948 retsPhotoCache/2/3 2293272 retsPhotoCache/2 144 retsPhotoCache/9/1 148 retsPhotoCache/9 113028 retsPhotoCache/1/4 74016 retsPhotoCache/1/6 131180 retsPhotoCache/1/5 26292 retsPhotoCache/1/0 109172 retsPhotoCache/1/2 100024 retsPhotoCache/1/1 100264 retsPhotoCache/1/3 653980 retsPhotoCache/1 32 retsPhotoCache/8/7 36 retsPhotoCache/8 30423608 retsPhotoCache/3/4 4432832 retsPhotoCache/3/0 11340184 retsPhotoCache/3/2 28 retsPhotoCache/3/9 5287432 retsPhotoCache/3/1 41008560 retsPhotoCache/3/3 92492648 retsPhotoCache/3 95440088 retsPhotoCache/ New: [root at new nfsshare]# du --max-depth=2 retsPhotoCache/ 184 retsPhotoCache/9/1 192 retsPhotoCache/9 56 retsPhotoCache/8/7 64 retsPhotoCache/8 147640 retsPhotoCache/1/4 171272 retsPhotoCache/1/5 130884 retsPhotoCache/1/1 34440 retsPhotoCache/1/0 129292 retsPhotoCache/1/3 140840 retsPhotoCache/1/2 94040 retsPhotoCache/1/6 848416 retsPhotoCache/1 44 retsPhotoCache/3/9 35892708 retsPhotoCache/3/4 6851728 retsPhotoCache/3/1 5830840 retsPhotoCache/3/0 48506212 retsPhotoCache/3/3 13833412 retsPhotoCache/3/2 110914952 retsPhotoCache/3 354728 retsPhotoCache/2/1 290028 retsPhotoCache/2/0 1617400 retsPhotoCache/2/3 702112 retsPhotoCache/2/2 2964276 retsPhotoCache/2 114727908 retsPhotoCache/ Can anyone help me understand this? Why is there such a huge discrepancy in the amount of drive space being used? I have about 5 million jpg images ( about 100Gig) which I am moving from a local file system to an nfs share. The files use a lot more space on the new file system then they do on the old. The both are ext3 filesystems. The block sizes are the same. There are a different number of Inodes per group and inode blocks per group but I'm not sure what that means. 95440088 on the old 114727908 on the new the old is a fedora 2 box with a plain old 250gig ide drive the new is a centos 5 box with software raid 5 across 3 500 gig sata drives here are some details: Old: [user at old devmlsserver]$ du --max-depth=2 retsPhotoCache/ 229488 retsPhotoCache/2/0 553248 retsPhotoCache/2/2 279584 retsPhotoCache/2/1 1230948 retsPhotoCache/2/3 2293272 retsPhotoCache/2 144 retsPhotoCache/9/1 148 retsPhotoCache/9 113028 retsPhotoCache/1/4 74016 retsPhotoCache/1/6 131180 retsPhotoCache/1/5 26292 retsPhotoCache/1/0 109172 retsPhotoCache/1/2 100024 retsPhotoCache/1/1 100264 retsPhotoCache/1/3 653980 retsPhotoCache/1 32 retsPhotoCache/8/7 36 retsPhotoCache/8 30423608 retsPhotoCache/3/4 4432832 retsPhotoCache/3/0 11340184 retsPhotoCache/3/2 28 retsPhotoCache/3/9 5287432 retsPhotoCache/3/1 41008560 retsPhotoCache/3/3 92492648 retsPhotoCache/3 95440088 retsPhotoCache/ New: [root at new nfsshare]# du --max-depth=2 retsPhotoCache/ 184 retsPhotoCache/9/1 192 retsPhotoCache/9 56 retsPhotoCache/8/7 64 retsPhotoCache/8 147640 retsPhotoCache/1/4 171272 retsPhotoCache/1/5 130884 retsPhotoCache/1/1 34440 retsPhotoCache/1/0 129292 retsPhotoCache/1/3 140840 retsPhotoCache/1/2 94040 retsPhotoCache/1/6 848416 retsPhotoCache/1 44 retsPhotoCache/3/9 35892708 retsPhotoCache/3/4 6851728 retsPhotoCache/3/1 5830840 retsPhotoCache/3/0 48506212 retsPhotoCache/3/3 13833412 retsPhotoCache/3/2 110914952 retsPhotoCache/3 354728 retsPhotoCache/2/1 290028 retsPhotoCache/2/0 1617400 retsPhotoCache/2/3 702112 retsPhotoCache/2/2 2964276 retsPhotoCache/2 114727908 retsPhotoCache/ here is one small dir structure for comparison Old Local FS: [user at old retsphototest]$ du /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8 20 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8/2 24 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8 28 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8 32 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7 36 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8 Old nfs shared FS: [user at old retsphototest]$ du /home/user/retsphototest/8 32 /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8/8/2 40 /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8/8 48 /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8 56 /home/user/retsphototest/8/7 64 /home/user/retsphototest/8 New local FS, this is the share: [root at new retsPhotoCache]# du /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8 32 /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8/2 40 /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8 48 /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8 56 /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8/7 64 /var/nfsshare/retsPhotoCache/8 Old: [root at old ~]# dumpe2fs -h /dev/sda2 dumpe2fs 1.36 (05-Feb-2005) Filesystem volume name: /1 Last mounted on: Filesystem UUID: 924b8f6c-8f8e-4cb2-a1ef-d513b5c8a437 Filesystem magic number: 0xEF53 Filesystem revision #: 1 (dynamic) Filesystem features: has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index filetype needs_recovery sparse_super large_file Default mount options: (none) Filesystem state: clean Errors behavior: Continue Filesystem OS type: Linux Inode count: 30375936 Block count: 60739756 Reserved block count: 3036987 Free blocks: 42722859 Free inodes: 28747754 First block: 0 Block size: 4096 Fragment size: 4096 Reserved GDT blocks: 1009 Blocks per group: 32768 Fragments per group: 32768 Inodes per group: 16384 Inode blocks per group: 512 Filesystem created: Wed Jun 15 15:47:25 2005 Last mount time: Tue Apr 10 22:31:09 2007 Last write time: Tue Apr 10 22:31:09 2007 Mount count: 19 Maximum mount count: -1 Last checked: Wed Jun 15 15:47:25 2005 Check interval: 0 () Reserved blocks uid: 0 (user root) Reserved blocks gid: 0 (group root) First inode: 11 Inode size: 128 Journal inode: 8 First orphan inode: 5062661 Default directory hash: tea Directory Hash Seed: 0ae3a9f8-13f0-40cc-9065-a27063627473 Journal backup: inode blocks New: [root at new retsPhotoCache]# dumpe2fs -h /dev/md2 dumpe2fs 1.39 (29-May-2006) Filesystem volume name: Last mounted on: Filesystem UUID: 7888256b-7ba3-4b0c-9a37-76e429cdd90c Filesystem magic number: 0xEF53 Filesystem revision #: 1 (dynamic) Filesystem features: has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index filetype needs_recovery sparse_super large_file Default mount options: user_xattr acl Filesystem state: clean Errors behavior: Continue Filesystem OS type: Linux Inode count: 243138560 Block count: 243123584 Reserved block count: 12156179 Free blocks: 233894892 Free inodes: 243093025 First block: 0 Block size: 4096 Fragment size: 4096 Reserved GDT blocks: 966 Blocks per group: 32768 Fragments per group: 32768 Inodes per group: 32768 Inode blocks per group: 1024 Filesystem created: Tue Dec 4 19:39:22 2007 Last mount time: Fri Dec 7 22:21:45 2007 Last write time: Fri Dec 7 22:21:45 2007 Mount count: 8 Maximum mount count: -1 Last checked: Tue Dec 4 19:39:22 2007 Check interval: 0 () Reserved blocks uid: 0 (user root) Reserved blocks gid: 0 (group root) First inode: 11 Inode size: 128 Journal inode: 8 Default directory hash: tea Directory Hash Seed: 9e76f41f-4ee3-4137-ad2d-561eaca9daf7 Journal backup: inode blocks Journal size: 128M Old local: [user at old devmlsserver]$ ls -l /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8/2 total 16 -rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 8048 Apr 23 2007 5.0.Photo.jpg -rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 8048 Jun 28 22:50 5.1.Photo.jpg Old Share: [user at old devmlsserver]$ ls -l /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8/8/2 total 24 -rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 8048 Apr 23 2007 5.0.Photo.jpg -rw-rw-r-- 1 user user 8048 Jun 28 22:50 5.1.Photo.jpg [user at old devmlsserver]$ md5sum /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8/2/5.1.Photo.jpg d238ee668828117193e037a61b62a636 /home/user/user/home/devmlsserver/retsPhotoCache/8/7/8/8/2/5.1.Photo.jpg [user at old devmlsserver]$ md5sum /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8/8/2/5.1.Photo.jpg d238ee668828117193e037a61b62a636 /home/user/retsphototest/8/7/8/8/2/5.1.Photo.jpg -- - Tom Penney From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:11:54 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:11:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs, gives "hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt" In-Reply-To: <200712111127.38167.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> References: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> <200712111127.38167.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: For older hardware you might have better luck with the alternative CD, depending on how old it is. You could also try turning of acpi. When the installer menu comes up, press Esc. You will get a message about leaving the graphical menu. Click OK. You'll get a boot: prompt. Enter live acpi=off so your boot prompt looks like boot: live acpi=off The Ubuntu installer help also has some other suggestions (Press F1 when the installer boot menu appears): - If you experience lockups or other hardware failures, disable buggy APIC interrupt routing: noapic nolapic boot: live noapic nolapic - Disable ACPI for PCI maps (handy for some HP servers and Via-based machines): pci-noacpi boot: live pci-noacpi -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From cschumann at twp-llc.com Tue Dec 11 12:24:47 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:24:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:27:37 -0600 > From: "p.daniels" > Indeed I am. It's an eleven year old Aptiva (yeah, I'm pretty much just > doing it for the challenge). I feel your pain. I'm trying to install a minimal Ubuntu on a ThinkPad 750P. That's a screaming 33MHz 486 in my lappy! Aptiva could have a 486 or Pentium. > If anyone can tell me where to find specs for old old old IBM > machines, I'd really appreciate it (their website seems to be no help, > but I might be missing the obvious). I took a look here: ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitute/psref/ It's normally very useful for that kind of thing, but there's no book for Aptiva or PS/1, which is what turned into Aptiva. I found http://members.aol.com/don5408/aptiva.html which is the Unofficial Aptiva Support Site. Just for fun, what's the 7-digit machine type? From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 12:41:39 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:41:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs In-Reply-To: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: > I feel your pain. I'm trying to install a minimal Ubuntu on a ThinkPad > 750P. That's a screaming 33MHz 486 in my lappy! Aptiva could have a 486 or > Pentium. For this you REALLY should use the Ubuntu alternate install CD. The alternate install CD allows you to perform certain specialist installations of Ubuntu. It provides for the following situations: * creating pre-configured OEM systems; * setting up automated deployments; * upgrading from older installations without network access; * LVM and/or RAID partitioning; * installs on systems with less than about 320MB of RAM (although note that low-memory systems may not be able to run a full desktop environment reasonably). http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/gutsy/MD5SUMS http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/gutsy/MD5SUMS.gpg http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/gutsy/ubuntu-7.10-alternate-i386.iso http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/gutsy/ubuntu-7.10-alternate-i386.iso.torrent -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From cschumann at twp-llc.com Tue Dec 11 12:53:26 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:53:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Andrew Zbikowski said: >> I feel your pain. I'm trying to install a minimal Ubuntu on a ThinkPad >> 750P. That's a screaming 33MHz 486 in my lappy! Aptiva could have a >> 486 or Pentium. > > For this you REALLY should use the Ubuntu alternate install CD. I forgot to mention: No CD drive. No USB. I managed to get Debian Woody running, but would like something a bit more up to date. I'm looking at getting FreeDOS installed, getting a memory card reader to mount, then using linld to run the Ubuntu mini installer image. Any tips on that path greatly appreciated. :) Chris From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu Tue Dec 11 13:11:23 2007 From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:11:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs In-Reply-To: <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <20071211131123.A29433@belka.space.umn.edu> On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 12:53:26PM -0600, Chris Schumann wrote: > Andrew Zbikowski said: > > For this you REALLY should use the Ubuntu alternate install CD. > > I forgot to mention: No CD drive. No USB. I managed to get Debian Woody > running, but would like something a bit more up to date. Do you have a network card? If not, someone on list might have one that they could donate. Updating is a lot easier with a network card. > I'm looking at getting FreeDOS installed, getting a memory card reader to > mount, then using linld to run the Ubuntu mini installer image. Any tips > on that path greatly appreciated. :) If you have Debian Woody running, why don't you just update to Sarge and then to Etch? If you have fairly minimal installs, updating should be easier than a fresh install. Updating should still be possible without a network card, though re-installing might be faster. -- Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ Never laugh at live dragons | From srcfoo at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 13:13:07 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:13:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Tomorrow Message-ID: <579c6fd30712111113t6f2b30fbwa9620657bb70cbc0@mail.gmail.com> Ethan Galstad will be giving a presentation of Nagios at tomorrow's meeting. Here are the details -> Date: Wed, Dec 12th Time: 7:00 - 8:30 pm University of Minnesota Minneapolis campus, EE/CSci Building , EE/Csci 3-111 200 Union St SE, Minneapolis 55455 I will need to leave early so if anyone is interested in having a post TCLUG meetup you'll have to coordinate it yourselves. See you tomorrow. Eric From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 13:18:02 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:18:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs In-Reply-To: <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: You might want to look into net booting it if the NIC supports it...if not you can probally create a floppy that does. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/Netboot https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/WindowsServerNetboot https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/QuickNetboot -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Dec 11 13:35:26 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:35:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disk usage discrepancy In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0712110957g19dcf7a1h93ef432b3a949751@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0712110957g19dcf7a1h93ef432b3a949751@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20938.1197401726@skuld.wookimus.net> Filesystems are an interesting topic that I do not really enough about. However, the manpage for mke2fs holds lots of information regarding the tweaking of filesystem for new filesystems. Additionally, tune2fs holds information how changing some of them at run-time. With respect to inodes, which is essentially where all of the metadata about the files is stored, your larger filesystem (500GB) will inevitably have a different set of optimized inode settings than your smaller filesystem. Different versions of the kernel and filesystem tools will involve different filesystem defaults, which is another likely case between your fedora 2 and centos 5 boxes. With the number of images that you proportedly have, you might want to use the "dir_index" feature of ext3 to speed up directory lookups (make sure you run fsck.ext3 after tune2fs to change it). You could also use the "super_sparce" feature to save some more space. Again, all of this info is in the manpages. The last thing to consider regarding effective use of space. You might want to re-create the filesystem on the RAID 5 array to match the "stripe-size" using the "stride" extended option (mke2fs). For more information about ext3, here's a transcript of a presentation by Dr. Stephen Tweedie: http://olstrans.sourceforge.net/release/OLS2000-ext3/OLS2000-ext3.html Enjoy! Chad From cschumann at twp-llc.com Tue Dec 11 13:51:10 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:51:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Andrew Zbikowski said: > You might want to look into net booting it if the NIC supports it...if > not you can probally create a floppy that does. > > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/Netboot > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/WindowsServerNetboot > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/QuickNetboot Andrew, thanks for the links, and it would be great if I could get this machine to boot from the network. The BIOS does allow me to select the network as a boot device, but I think I would also need the NIC to support that, and I don't think mine (LinkSys PCMPC100) does. So Etherboot sounds interesting, but I've never been sure it works with any PCCard NICs. Although the Etherboot web site does mention that LTSP has a floppy that can start a network boot, I couldn't find it. Specific links would be great, but I'll keep working on another solution in the mean time. Chris From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:06:17 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:06:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: If your NIC card doesn't support PXE booting things get more interesting... If it's a supported adapter supported by the Microsoft Windows Remote Installation Services Boot disk and you have access to a Windows 2000 or 2003 server you could use this disk to, but the list of supported adapters is short and doesn't include PCMCIA cards. If you've got another laptop or the IDE adapter, you could install using a newer computer that has a working CDROM and then transplant the hd into the other laptop. You might have to sort out some hardware issues with this method after transplanting. It looks like the Linksys driver package has a DOS PCMCIA enabler program to get the adapter to work in DOS. You could make yourself a FreeDOS boot disk that can mount a samba share as a drive letter, then modify the installation from Windows instructions to fit... https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromWindows?highlight=%28dos%29%7C%28install%29 And there are plenty of other installation hacks in the Ubuntu wiki. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/ https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=installation&titlesearch=Titles -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:13:20 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:13:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: One more idea... Debian still has a floppy based netboot. You need 5 floppies to get up and running, and then it's all network based. You could try changing the installers sources.list to Ubuntu's sources...no idea if that will work. Or you could get enough of Debain installed and follow the Installation from another Disto instructions, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromAnotherDistro?highlight=%28install%29, or easiest of all just stick with Debian. :) Assuming you can boot the laptop from floppy, going with Debain instead of Ubuntu might be your best bet. :) -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From teeahr1 at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 15:13:16 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:13:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] debian installer hangs, gives "hda:<4>hda: lost interrupt" In-Reply-To: References: <200712101304.25314.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> <200712111127.38167.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200712111513.17300.TeeAhr1@gmail.com> On Tuesday December 11 2007 12:11:54 Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > For older hardware you might have better luck with the alternative CD, > depending on how old it is. > > You could also try turning of acpi. When the installer menu comes up, > press Esc. You will get a message about leaving the graphical menu. > Click OK. You'll get a boot: prompt. > Enter live acpi=off so your boot prompt looks like > boot: live acpi=off > > > > The Ubuntu installer help also has some other suggestions (Press F1 > when the installer boot menu appears): > - If you experience lockups or other hardware failures, disable buggy > APIC interrupt routing: noapic nolapic > boot: live noapic nolapic > > - Disable ACPI for PCI maps (handy for some HP servers and Via-based > machines): pci-noacpi > boot: live pci-noacpi Turning off acpi did it, thanks Andrew! -p. From cschumann at twp-llc.com Wed Dec 12 09:40:55 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:40:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Andrew Zbikowski said: > One more idea... > > Debian still has a floppy based netboot. You need 5 floppies to get up > and running, and then it's all network based. That's sort of my next plan. There's a web site [1] that has made a set of Fedora install floppies, which would work on my machine except that Fedora doesn't work on any 486 any more. (The older versions might work, but upgrading would not be fun.) I plan to make such a set of floppies for Ubuntu using the Mini ISO, which is only 9.1MB, so it should fit on 7 floppies, or 6 if I make 1.7MB floppies, plus one for the boot diskette. It should allow a direct network install without requiring any OS to be installed. [1] http://www.thisiscool.com/fcfloppy.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 12 09:52:31 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:52:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Chris Schumann wrote: > That's sort of my next plan. There's a web site [1] that has made a set > of Fedora install floppies, which would work on my machine except that > Fedora doesn't work on any 486 any more. (The older versions might work, > but upgrading would not be fun.) > > I plan to make such a set of floppies for Ubuntu using the Mini ISO, > which is only 9.1MB, so it should fit on 7 floppies, or 6 if I make > 1.7MB floppies, plus one for the boot diskette. It should allow a direct > network install without requiring any OS to be installed. > > [1] http://www.thisiscool.com/fcfloppy.htm Does "network install" imply that no hard drive is needed on the local machine? Mike From cschumann at twp-llc.com Wed Dec 12 09:54:38 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:54:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <34261.192.28.2.17.1197474878.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Mike Miller said: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Chris Schumann wrote: > >> That's sort of my next plan. There's a web site [1] that has made a >> set of Fedora install floppies, which would work on my machine except >> that Fedora doesn't work on any 486 any more. (The older versions >> might work, but upgrading would not be fun.) >> >> I plan to make such a set of floppies for Ubuntu using the Mini ISO, >> which is only 9.1MB, so it should fit on 7 floppies, or 6 if I make >> 1.7MB floppies, plus one for the boot diskette. It should allow a >> direct network install without requiring any OS to be installed. >> >> [1] http://www.thisiscool.com/fcfloppy.htm > > > Does "network install" imply that no hard drive is needed on the local > machine? Nope. It means get the packages from the network instead of a local source such as floppy(!), CD, memory card, etc. Chris From jima at beer.tclug.org Wed Dec 12 09:59:53 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:59:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Chris Schumann wrote: > Andrew Zbikowski said: >> One more idea... >> >> Debian still has a floppy based netboot. You need 5 floppies to get up >> and running, and then it's all network based. > > That's sort of my next plan. There's a web site [1] that has made a set of > Fedora install floppies, which would work on my machine except that Fedora > doesn't work on any 486 any more. (The older versions might work, but > upgrading would not be fun.) The only hard dependencies Fedora 8 has on i586+ processors (i.e., Pentium Pro and up) are the kernel, and apparently the IcedTea Java stack. If you rebuilt the kernel as i386/i486, it might work. Might. :-) That said, the most pitiful machine I currently have running Fedora regularly is a Pentium 150 with 40mb of RAM. Let's just say I'm not running a GUI on it. (There's also that P75 I managed to get running, but that was more to scare people via Smolt than anything.) Jima From jima at beer.tclug.org Wed Dec 12 10:03:01 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:03:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Chris Schumann wrote: >> I plan to make such a set of floppies for Ubuntu using the Mini ISO, >> which is only 9.1MB, so it should fit on 7 floppies, or 6 if I make >> 1.7MB floppies, plus one for the boot diskette. It should allow a direct >> network install without requiring any OS to be installed. > > Does "network install" imply that no hard drive is needed on the local > machine? No, the term generally means that the source of the install is network-based. The destination is typically a local hard drive. (Although you can do fun stuff with ATA over Ethernet...I haven't tried a non-Xen install, though.) Jima From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 12 10:26:44 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:26:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine (was: debian installer hangs) In-Reply-To: <34261.192.28.2.17.1197474878.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <34261.192.28.2.17.1197474878.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Chris Schumann wrote: > Mike Miller said: > >> Does "network install" imply that no hard drive is needed on the local >> machine? > > Nope. It means get the packages from the network instead of a local > source such as floppy(!), CD, memory card, etc. Thanks. I get it -- it's for when you have no CD drive. There are systems that can boot from a network with no HDD on the local machine, right? I think Sun's computers had a system for that set up in the EEPROM. That might be an interesting thing to get into for the future when we have loads of wireless network bandwidth widely distributed and little low-energy devices. But maybe there's no need because the price of flash memory is coming down very fast right now. Mike From dru at druswanderings.net Wed Dec 12 10:38:15 2007 From: dru at druswanderings.net (The Wandering Dru) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:38:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine In-Reply-To: References: <18274.192.28.2.17.1197397487.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <26016.192.28.2.17.1197399206.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <17685.192.28.2.17.1197402670.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <32338.192.28.2.17.1197474055.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <34261.192.28.2.17.1197474878.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <47600E77.1090205@druswanderings.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mike Miller wrote: > There are systems that can boot from a network with no HDD on the local > machine, right? I think Sun's computers had a system for that set up in > the EEPROM. I'm not sure about using it with wireless, but I have a terminal server at home set up with 3 clients with no hard drives. More info @ http://www.ltsp.org/ - -- Andy Moore The Wandering Dru GnuPG Key: 9235A5B9 http://www.druswanderings.net Get nifty TCLUG merchandise at the TCLUG Store! http://www.cafeshops.com/tclug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFHYA529Z9ikpI1pbkRAj11AKDv0nCxgYWkjo9reAj/ABoqf5hBXgCdEnIo 4/z2wQKRyG8DwQeUsOVYGqk= =4qpX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andyzib at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 11:12:24 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:12:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Network Booting (Was: Old Machine) Message-ID: Network Booting varies from platform to platform and application to application. For PC hardware, PXE (Preboot Execution Environment) is the standard. Most enterprise level networks cards support it, but it may be disabled by default. For PXE to work, you define information such as the tftp server and network bootstrap image to load into memory. The PXE client downloads the network bootstarp image, and then PXE hands over control of the hardware to the network bootstap image. The computer boots the network bootstrap image. The bootstrap image is a small image, usually it only has enough of the operating system to boot the computer, start up the network, and mount a network filesystem or start a Citrix, Windows Terminal Services, or X11 session. For more advanced environments, the bootstrap image would mount a remote file system and run the operating system from an image on the remote server. Mac and Sun computers for example can do this as out of the box as long as there is a working netboot. I use network booting for installing/reinstalling operating systems on hardware. I am currently using Microsoft Remote Installation Services (RIS) to deploy/reinstall WindowsXP. I also have hacked the Ubuntu netboot, Offline NT Password & Registry Editor (http://home.eunet.no/pnordahl/ntpasswd/), Ghost Console Client boot disk, and I almost had Knoppix working but I abandoned Knoppix due to time constraints. Unattended (http://unattended.sourceforge.net) is a project for setting up a RIS like system on a Linux server. You can also just look for instructions on how to setup PXE booting hosted by a Linux server. Another Microsoft Example: Microsoft's Windows Distribution System (WDS, Server 2003 and 2008 replacement for RIS) boots the WindowsPE operating system on the client in order to copy a WDS image to the local storage. WDS is intended to deploy Windows Vista and Server 2008, but it has backwards compatibility with RIS. I haven't gotten a working WDS environment going yet. Vista and server 2008 deployments aren't high on my priority list. ;-) The Linux Terminal Server Project (http://www.ltsp.org/) is a thin client solution for Linux. With LTSP you can turn your existing PC hardware into a diskless system that connects to a Linux server via XDMCP. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 12 11:36:42 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:36:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Network Booting (Was: Old Machine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > The Linux Terminal Server Project (http://www.ltsp.org/) is a thin > client solution for Linux. With LTSP you can turn your existing PC > hardware into a diskless system that connects to a Linux server via > XDMCP. Can this be used to create a cluster of several Linux machines that all share one disk? That seems like a good application. Related to this: Anyone out there doing anyting with load balancing in Linux clusters? Mike From bbaptist at iexposure.com Wed Dec 12 12:02:05 2007 From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:02:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Network Booting (Was: Old Machine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712121202.05762.bbaptist@iexposure.com> On Wednesday 12 December 2007 11:36:42 am Mike Miller wrote: > Related to this: Anyone out there doing anyting with load balancing in > Linux clusters? We are using haproxy to a cluster of machines running on OCFS2 connected to a CoRAID AoE SAN. Links to stuff: http://haproxy.1wt.eu/ http://oss.oracle.com/projects/ocfs2/ http://www.coraid.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_over_Ethernet -- Bret Baptist Senior Network Administrator bbaptist at iexposure.com Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Providing Internet Services since 1995 Web Development ~ Search Engine Marketing ~ Web Analytics Network Security ~ On Demand Tech Support ~ E-Mail Marketing ------------------------------------------ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 12 12:44:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 12:44:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Network Booting (Was: Old Machine) In-Reply-To: <200712121202.05762.bbaptist@iexposure.com> References: <200712121202.05762.bbaptist@iexposure.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2007, Bret Baptist wrote: > We are using haproxy to a cluster of machines running on OCFS2 connected > to a CoRAID AoE SAN. > > Links to stuff: > http://haproxy.1wt.eu/ > http://oss.oracle.com/projects/ocfs2/ > http://www.coraid.com/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_over_Ethernet Thanks, Brett. That gives me a few good things to read! Mike From srcfoo at gmail.com Wed Dec 12 14:14:25 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:14:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Today Message-ID: <579c6fd30712121214i2f666a61t9b70906eae252bc6@mail.gmail.com> Join us tonight for a presentation on Nagios by Ethan Galstad, its creator and lead developer. Date: Wed, Dec 12th Time: 7:00 - 8:30 pm University of Minnesota Minneapolis campus, EE/CSci Building , EE/Csci 3-111 200 Union St SE, Minneapolis 55455 From canito at dalan.us Thu Dec 13 16:02:26 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:02:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: WTB DUAL ATHLON MP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071213160226.k4eezdwm04wgw040@mail.dalan.us> Good Day: Sorry to not post through the classifieds, lost u:p and ran out of email addys. > I am looking for a pair of Athlon MP processors (preferably) MP-2000/2200. I appreciate your time! David A. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 09:44:01 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:44:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141544.lBEFi1W06409@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free Modems 6 external US Robotics v.everything and v.34. Comes with power adaptor. Free! Contact Jim Streit 952-897-7791 Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 09:53:07 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:53:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141553.lBEFr7u11308@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Cisco Router Free Router. Cisco 1005. IOS version 11.1(7) release (fc2) 10 Base T port Serial port Rear Picture: http://www.welshco.com/ equipment/ cisco1005routerback.jpg Free Contact Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 09:59:12 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:59:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141559.lBEFxCd13910@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: 2 digi port serial modules For Free! 2 DigiPort 8em modules and PCI controler. Each module has 8 28.8 25 pin serial ports. The 2 modules chain together and connect to the single PCI card. Back picture: http://www.welshco.com/ equipment/ digiback.jpg Contact: Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 10:01:30 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:01:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141601.lBEG1Um14696@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free CSU/DSU For Free Adtran CSU/DSU Part # 1200.060L1 Contact: Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 10:06:07 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:06:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141606.lBEG67A15484@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free 4mm DDS tape drive Free 4mm DDS tape SCSI drive, 8 tape loader! This little device is cool! It holds 8 4mm DAT tapes and still fits in a single full height internal drive bay. The cartridge holds 8 tapes and the loader will automatically shuffle the tapes as needed. Sony TSL-9000 DDS Auto Loader SCSI interface. Contact: Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 10:20:28 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:20:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141620.lBEGKSP17331@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free DLT Free DLT internal SCSI tape drive. HP SureStore DLT 70 DLT 7000 Series Model: C5657A Free Contact: Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Dec 14 10:26:11 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:26:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712141626.lBEGQBD18120@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Cisco 1600 Router Free Cisco 1601 Router 10 Base T / AUI port Serial Port Not sure of the IOS version. Rear View: http://www.welshco.com/ equipment/ cisco1600back.jpg Contact: Jim Streit 952-897-7791 jstreit at welshco.com Seller Email address: jimstreit at northlans dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Fri Dec 14 11:59:06 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:59:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [Where's Bryan?] Old hardware In-Reply-To: <011701c82ed7$c622b9b0$2ce3494b@hsd1.mn.comcast.net> References: <011701c82ed7$c622b9b0$2ce3494b@hsd1.mn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20071214115906.52323aff@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net> Attn Bryan On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:22:43 -0600 "Bryan Zimmer" wrote: > Thank you I got several Reponses to my add. > > I tried to print them out and collate them so I could retrieve the > contact information, but I wasn't successful in getting all the > associated emails and phone numbers. > > Please write to me or call, if you would be so kind, I am very > anxious to talk with each of you. > > Thanks, > > Bryan A. Zimmer > 651-492-9388 Bryan - I've sent emails and phone calls but not getting any response - are you around? Josh 612-242-8753 From andyzib at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 19:20:03 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:20:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card Message-ID: I've been searching for the past hour and a half and haven't turned up anything 100% conclusive, so here's hoping someone in TCLUG knows... I need to find a PCI Wireless Network card that will fit into a small form factor/low profile case. (Dell OptiPlex GX250, GX260, GX270, GX280, GX640, 745, 755). If that weren't bad enough, it also needs to work in Linux (Ubuntu 6.06 LTS). I could go to a newer Ubuntu release if I had to, but for now I'd rather not for now. I've got the Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installer PXE booting and installing everything automatically from there, and if I can put off updating everything until the next Ubuntu Long Term Support release that would make my 2008 - 2011. ;-) The autoinstall is basically a web kiosk. I've probably got about 50 of them that are currently running an old version of Debian. Most are wired, but there are 12 that are wireless, but we've exhausted the supply of cards that we do have and the cards that we do have don't fit in the small form factor cases. Anyway, my search will continue on Monday morning unless someone knows of a card that will get the job done... -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From anna2edw at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 19:55:52 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <208135.33504.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> if using a usb device isnt a problom, go to best buy and every wireless g usb adapter has native support Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > I've been searching for the past hour and a half and haven't turned up > anything 100% conclusive, so here's hoping someone in TCLUG knows... > I need to find a PCI Wireless Network card that will fit into a small > form factor/low profile case. (Dell OptiPlex GX250, GX260, GX270, > GX280, GX640, 745, 755). If that weren't bad enough, it also needs to > work in Linux (Ubuntu 6.06 LTS). I could go to a newer Ubuntu release > if I had to, but for now I'd rather not for now. I've got the Ubuntu > 6.06 LTS installer PXE booting and installing everything automatically > from there, and if I can put off updating everything until the next > Ubuntu Long Term Support release that would make my 2008 - 2011. ;-) > The autoinstall is basically a web kiosk. I've probably got about 50 > of them that are currently running an old version of Debian. Most are > wired, but there are 12 that are wireless, but we've exhausted the > supply of cards that we do have and the cards that we do have don't > fit in the small form factor cases. > Anyway, my search will continue on Monday morning unless someone knows > of a card that will get the job done... > -- > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; > 0 rows returned > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From verigoth at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 20:20:33 2007 From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:20:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: <208135.33504.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <208135.33504.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm not 100% that it works in 6.06, but the best wireless card I've found (so far) is the Gigabyte GN-WP01GS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839121008). It's the RaLink RT2561 chipset. It doesn't come with a low profile bracket (at least not from newegg), but those are fairly standard in design. I would think your biggest problem would be the Ubuntu drivers since all of the wireless cards I've seen lately seem to be low profile. Best of luck in any case. On Dec 14, 2007 7:55 PM, Anna Edwards wrote: > if using a usb device isnt a problom, go to best buy and every wireless g usb adapter has native support > > > Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > > I've been searching for the past hour and a half and haven't turned up > > anything 100% conclusive, so here's hoping someone in TCLUG knows... > > I need to find a PCI Wireless Network card that will fit into a small > > form factor/low profile case. (Dell OptiPlex GX250, GX260, GX270, > > GX280, GX640, 745, 755). If that weren't bad enough, it also needs to > > work in Linux (Ubuntu 6.06 LTS). I could go to a newer Ubuntu release > > if I had to, but for now I'd rather not for now. I've got the Ubuntu > > 6.06 LTS installer PXE booting and installing everything automatically > > from there, and if I can put off updating everything until the next > > Ubuntu Long Term Support release that would make my 2008 - 2011. ;-) > > The autoinstall is basically a web kiosk. I've probably got about 50 > > of them that are currently running an old version of Debian. Most are > > wired, but there are 12 that are wireless, but we've exhausted the > > supply of cards that we do have and the cards that we do have don't > > fit in the small form factor cases. > > Anyway, my search will continue on Monday morning unless someone knows > > of a card that will get the job done... > > -- > > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > > SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; > > 0 rows returned > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com Fri Dec 14 21:01:00 2007 From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:01:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20071214203128.02548840@pop.mm.com> At 07:20 PM 12/14/2007, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: >I need to find a PCI Wireless Network card that will fit into a small >form factor/low profile case. For what it's worth, a couple of months ago I faced the same problem and spent two weeks in a fruitless search for a half-height WiFi card. Rounded up the likely suspects, searched the web, called everywhere ... no one had one nor had heard of one. I gave up and went with a USB adapter, which was cheaper (~$25 v $60+) -- but not like, you know, *internal*. Two ideas, if your luck proves as bad as mine, and you don't want to dedicate one of your external USB ports to the cause: (1) Tape or glue a USB WiFi "thumbdrive" adapter somewhere on the surface of the case or elsewhere nearby (you might need to experiment for a position that gets a strong signal). Run a USB cable inside the case to a USB header on the motherboard. (General Nano has adapters that mate to a 5-pin USB header on one end and run ~8" to a regular female USB connector on the other). (2) Many (most?) WiFi cards these days have a "green card" small enough to fit in a low-profile case, but are attached to a full-height metal slot-bracket. If you're handy in the shop, you could take one of them and cut down the chrome mount bracket. On the other hand, if you find one, please do post it here! At least one enquiring mind wants to know. From anna2edw at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 21:04:43 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:04:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <228843.48675.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i think that a wireless g will suffice for him. 6.06 dosnt have native support for N. blame red hat for that one... or was it novells falt. anyway, any wireless g card from best buy. Rob Bayerl wrote: > I'm not 100% that it works in 6.06, but the best wireless card I've > found (so far) is the Gigabyte GN-WP01GS > (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839121008). > It's the RaLink RT2561 chipset. It doesn't come with a low profile > bracket (at least not from newegg), but those are fairly standard in > design. I would think your biggest problem would be the Ubuntu > drivers since all of the wireless cards I've seen lately seem to be > low profile. > Best of luck in any case. > On Dec 14, 2007 7:55 PM, Anna Edwards wrote: >> if using a usb device isnt a problom, go to best buy and every wireless g usb adapter has native support >> >> >> Andrew Zbikowski wrote: >> > I've been searching for the past hour and a half and haven't turned up >> > anything 100% conclusive, so here's hoping someone in TCLUG knows... >> > I need to find a PCI Wireless Network card that will fit into a small >> > form factor/low profile case. (Dell OptiPlex GX250, GX260, GX270, >> > GX280, GX640, 745, 755). If that weren't bad enough, it also needs to >> > work in Linux (Ubuntu 6.06 LTS). I could go to a newer Ubuntu release >> > if I had to, but for now I'd rather not for now. I've got the Ubuntu >> > 6.06 LTS installer PXE booting and installing everything automatically >> > from there, and if I can put off updating everything until the next >> > Ubuntu Long Term Support release that would make my 2008 - 2011. ;-) >> > The autoinstall is basically a web kiosk. I've probably got about 50 >> > of them that are currently running an old version of Debian. Most are >> > wired, but there are 12 that are wireless, but we've exhausted the >> > supply of cards that we do have and the cards that we do have don't >> > fit in the small form factor cases. >> > Anyway, my search will continue on Monday morning unless someone knows >> > of a card that will get the job done... >> > -- >> > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us >> > SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; >> > 0 rows returned >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Be a better friend, newshound, and >> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From florin at iucha.net Fri Dec 14 21:10:30 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:10:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: References: <208135.33504.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071215031030.GA4456@iucha.net> On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 08:20:33PM -0600, Rob Bayerl wrote: > I'm not 100% that it works in 6.06, but the best wireless card I've > found (so far) is the Gigabyte GN-WP01GS > (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839121008). > It's the RaLink RT2561 chipset. It doesn't come with a low profile > bracket (at least not from newegg), but those are fairly standard in > design. I would think your biggest problem would be the Ubuntu > drivers since all of the wireless cards I've seen lately seem to be > low profile. Rob, Does this card work with Ubuntu 7.10 or Fedora 8 out of the box? Thanks, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071214/97d8bde0/attachment.pgp From verigoth at gmail.com Fri Dec 14 23:14:28 2007 From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:14:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: <20071215031030.GA4456@iucha.net> References: <208135.33504.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071215031030.GA4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: It works with Ubuntu 7.10 out of the box. I'd imagine with Fedora as well since the RaLink chipsets are becoming more and more common, but I couldn't say for sure. On Dec 14, 2007 9:10 PM, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 08:20:33PM -0600, Rob Bayerl wrote: > > I'm not 100% that it works in 6.06, but the best wireless card I've > > found (so far) is the Gigabyte GN-WP01GS > > (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839121008). > > It's the RaLink RT2561 chipset. It doesn't come with a low profile > > bracket (at least not from newegg), but those are fairly standard in > > design. I would think your biggest problem would be the Ubuntu > > drivers since all of the wireless cards I've seen lately seem to be > > low profile. > > Rob, > > Does this card work with Ubuntu 7.10 or Fedora 8 out of the box? > > Thanks, > florin > > -- > Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. > http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFHY0WlND0rFCN2b1sRAkKwAJ408hz+ImuhaNFh0GmZaM4kaT7N8wCfWSfV > kVWBdgtM0a4C1slmkDqG0Gw= > =ymwZ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From thecubic at thecubic.net Fri Dec 14 23:19:15 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:19:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless PCI Card In-Reply-To: <20071215031030.GA4456@iucha.net> References: <20071215031030.GA4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <200712142319.16947.thecubic@thecubic.net> I purchased one specifically because RT2561 does work out-of-the-box on Fedora 8 (rpm -qif /lib/firmware/rt2561.bin) - I assume that means it probably works with the recent Ubuntu also. -Dave On Friday 14 December 2007 09:10:30 pm Florin Iucha wrote: > On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 08:20:33PM -0600, Rob Bayerl wrote: > > I'm not 100% that it works in 6.06, but the best wireless card I've > > found (so far) is the Gigabyte GN-WP01GS > > (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16839121008). > > It's the RaLink RT2561 chipset. It doesn't come with a low profile > > bracket (at least not from newegg), but those are fairly standard in > > design. I would think your biggest problem would be the Ubuntu > > drivers since all of the wireless cards I've seen lately seem to be > > low profile. > > Rob, > > Does this card work with Ubuntu 7.10 or Fedora 8 out of the box? > > Thanks, > florin From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 13:16:14 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 11:16:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD Message-ID: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 desktop. how would i do this? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From asim at cognizo.com Sat Dec 15 13:53:08 2007 From: asim at cognizo.com (Asim Baig) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:53:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <476430A4.7010200@cognizo.com> find a new friend.....:-) Wow.....is it even possible...probably not. *Asim Baig* Cognizo Technologies 10501 Wayzata Blvd., Suite 100 Minnetonka, MN 55305 (952) 417-0067 x101 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CATS - Open Source Applicant Tracking System Anna Edwards wrote: > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 desktop. how would i do this? > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071215/09a0d05b/attachment.htm From mad.marvin.moonshadow at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 15:18:46 2007 From: mad.marvin.moonshadow at gmail.com (Mad Marvin Moonshadow) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:18:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <476430A4.7010200@cognizo.com> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <476430A4.7010200@cognizo.com> Message-ID: <1197753526.13058.3.camel@localhost> Some people in the Debian project has been working on this for a while. On Sat, 2007-12-15 at 13:53 -0600, Asim Baig wrote: > find a new friend.....:-) > > Wow.....is it even possible...probably not. > > > Asim Baig > Cognizo Technologies > 10501 Wayzata Blvd., Suite 100 > Minnetonka, MN 55305 > (952) 417-0067 x101 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > CATS - Open Source Applicant Tracking System > > > Anna Edwards wrote: > > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 desktop. how would i do this? > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu Sat Dec 15 15:43:23 2007 From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:43:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071215154323.A29328@belka.space.umn.edu> On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 11:16:14AM -0800, Anna Edwards wrote: > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu > and free bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel > in his ubuntu 7.10 desktop. how would i do this? Take a look at Debian GNU/kFreeBSD http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/. Someone there might have used the FreeBSD kernel with an Ubuntu install. Or you may be able to transform a Debian GNU/kFreeBSD install into a Ubuntu install and just keep the FreeeBSD kernel. -- Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ Never laugh at live dragons | From klp at msi.umn.edu Sat Dec 15 16:21:58 2007 From: klp at msi.umn.edu (Kevin Prigge) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:21:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitor give-away Message-ID: <20071215222158.GA25167@fire.msi.umn.edu> I have 2 17" Viewsonic monitors that I don't have room for, free to the first person(s) who wants to pick them up. Located in Mounds View. -- Kevin Prigge University of Minnesota Unix Systems Administrator Supercomputing Institute for Digital klp at umn.edu Simulation and Advanced Computation (612)626-9057 http://www.msi.umn.edu/ From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sat Dec 15 17:59:34 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:59:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <20071215154323.A29328@belka.space.umn.edu> Message-ID: <812436.3799.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> odd thing is that he installed 710 desktop... on a moniterless machine... i can handle. kernel source is on the server... can handle... no cd, floppy, or usb port... the problome. i told him that it was dumb to get it this way, but he cant get the system reinstalled. Jim Crumley wrote: > On Sat, Dec 15, 2007 at 11:16:14AM -0800, Anna Edwards wrote: >> a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu >> and free bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel >> in his ubuntu 7.10 desktop. how would i do this? > Take a look at Debian GNU/kFreeBSD > http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/. > Someone there might have used the FreeBSD kernel with an Ubuntu > install. Or you may be able to transform a Debian GNU/kFreeBSD > install into a Ubuntu install and just keep the FreeeBSD kernel. > -- > Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) > Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ > Never laugh at live dragons | > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 03:01:05 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:01:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free > bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 > desktop. how would i do this? I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and compiler tools working. What can he do with the Free BSD kernel that he can't do with the Linux kernel? It sounds like way more trouble than it would be worth. Tell him you'll do it for $10,000, but it might take two months! Mike From josh at tcbug.org Sun Dec 16 03:21:41 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:21:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> On Sunday 16 December 2007 03:01:05 am Mike Miller wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free > > bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 > > desktop. how would i do this? > > I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from > source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and > compiler tools working. > > What can he do with the Free BSD kernel that he can't do with the Linux > kernel? > > It sounds like way more trouble than it would be worth. Tell him you'll > do it for $10,000, but it might take two months! > > Mike Probably nothing, and loses all the advantages of running FreeBSD in the first place....namely an OS that's coherently designed and not just some random collection of bits tossed in a sack together. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071216/1e0f572d/attachment.pgp From sulrich at botwerks.org Sun Dec 16 07:05:14 2007 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:05:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i think the real irony in this thread is that ubuntu makes the dogs breakfast of linux more like freebsd in its operational elegance. fwiw - there are several things about freebsd's kernel which are definitely nicer than what's available on linux. notably in the networking realm. - 10GE optimizations w/TCP segment offload (linux might have this now) - SCTP - admittedly of niche interest, but this just works on freebsd and doesn't DIY brain surgery - soft updates for filesystem updates - pluggable network stack w/netgraph - kernel queues - accept filters - partial support for pf (which is just good enough to keep you from going to openbsd given how nice pf is.) admittedly these aren't necessarily of interest to folks that would be looking at ubuntu. linux is a great workstation os and more than capable in the server space, but if you're a hardcore network nerd (which i happen to be) you kind of find yourself frustrated at the way some of this stuff is handled on linux. plus freebsd has a far more bitchin' mascot. which is admittedly, a highly subjective metric and has nothing to do with kernel function. :) On 12/16/07, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sat, 15 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > > > a friend of mine gave me the oddest task. he likes both ubuntu and free > > bsd kernal. he asked me to put the freebsd 6.3 kernel in his ubuntu 7.10 > > desktop. how would i do this? > > I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from > source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and > compiler tools working. > > What can he do with the Free BSD kernel that he can't do with the Linux > kernel? > > It sounds like way more trouble than it would be worth. Tell him you'll > do it for $10,000, but it might take two months! > -- steve ulrich (sulrich at botwerks.*) From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 08:44:26 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 06:44:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <34346.49266.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> uh huh. this will be nice. umm... how am i supposed to do that? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From jima at beer.tclug.org Sun Dec 16 11:13:45 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:13:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from > source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and > compiler tools working. This is going off some ~5-year-old memories, but ISTR that FreeBSD has a Linux binary compatability mode/module/something that enables it to run apps built for Linux. (I once played with a Linux chroot jail on a FreeBSD box. It worked okay.) So the apps might be fine. > It sounds like way more trouble than it would be worth. Tell him you'll > do it for $10,000, but it might take two months! I might give it a shot for $10,000. ;-) Jima From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 13:00:58 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <263239.70617.qm@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> he decided to wait for the 7.x stable kernel- 2.6 support in that. he is wishy-washy like that. my friend is me. Jima wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: >> I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from >> source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and >> compiler tools working. > This is going off some ~5-year-old memories, but ISTR that FreeBSD has a > Linux binary compatability mode/module/something that enables it to run > apps built for Linux. (I once played with a Linux chroot jail on a > FreeBSD box. It worked okay.) So the apps might be fine. >> It sounds like way more trouble than it would be worth. Tell him you'll >> do it for $10,000, but it might take two months! > I might give it a shot for $10,000. ;-) > Jima > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 13:15:49 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] compiling 2.2.23 linux kernel Message-ID: <833760.4998.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> hi. at the moment, i am trying To make a feddora diradivitiVe by removing all the 'bloatware' leaving only the vi, nvi, vim, or whatever ancient text editor it has on it. i am wanting to make this and a diradivitive of it with much goods added to it. both things are going to be what i call Nexten. on them both i have questions. does 2.2.23 have a network manager built in? if not, were is one with a small foot print? i have everything worked out but these 2 things for the floppy verson. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From canito at dalan.us Sun Dec 16 16:20:14 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:20:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] compiling 2.2.23 linux kernel In-Reply-To: <833760.4998.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <833760.4998.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071216162014.jk6vg1q4g0480sks@mail.dalan.us> Hi Anna: I've been compiling the same kernel for my laptop 2.6.23-gentoo-r3 / as far as a network manager, (please excuse my ignorance) I am not aware of the kernel having a built-in network manager?!?! I know, you can build in the network (hardware) drivers and have a small dhcp client compiled with your floppy image, but not directly into the kernels, not that am I am aware of? David A Quoting Anna Edwards : > hi. at the moment, i am trying To make a feddora diradivitiVe by > removing all the 'bloatware' leaving only the vi, nvi, vim, > or whatever ancient text editor it has on it. i am wanting to make > this and a diradivitive of it with much goods added to it. both > things are going to be what i call Nexten. on them both i have > questions. does 2.2.23 have a network manager built in? if not, were > is one with a small foot print? i have everything worked out but > these 2 things for the floppy verson. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 18:22:47 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:22:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Jima wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Mike Miller wrote: >> I'm pretty sure that every ubuntu program would have to be compiled from >> source with the Free BSD kernel. You'd want to start by getting GCC and >> compiler tools working. > > This is going off some ~5-year-old memories, but ISTR that FreeBSD has a > Linux binary compatability mode/module/something that enables it to run > apps built for Linux. (I once played with a Linux chroot jail on a > FreeBSD box. It worked okay.) So the apps might be fine. Taking your lead, I found this: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2000/03/17/linuxapps.html Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 18:26:31 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:26:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: >> What can he do with the Free BSD kernel that he can't do with the Linux >> kernel? > > Probably nothing, and loses all the advantages of running FreeBSD in the > first place....namely an OS that's coherently designed and not just some > random collection of bits tossed in a sack together. What is incoherent in Linux that is coherent in FreeBSD? We must be talking about apps or utilities or something. Are GNU utils incoherent compared to FreeBSD utils? Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 18:23:57 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:23:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <263239.70617.qm@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <263239.70617.qm@web33705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > he decided to wait for the 7.x stable kernel- 2.6 support in that. he > is wishy-washy like that. my friend is me. It sounds like you know him well enough to get the $10,000 then! Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 19:12:25 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:12:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, steve ulrich wrote: > i think the real irony in this thread is that ubuntu makes the dogs > breakfast of linux more like freebsd in its operational elegance. > > fwiw - there are several things about freebsd's kernel which are > definitely nicer than what's available on linux. notably in the > networking realm. > > - 10GE optimizations w/TCP segment offload (linux might have this now) > - SCTP - admittedly of niche interest, but this just works on freebsd and doesn't DIY brain surgery > - soft updates for filesystem updates > - pluggable network stack w/netgraph > - kernel queues > - accept filters > - partial support for pf (which is just good enough to keep you from going to openbsd given how nice pf is.) I have to admit that I don't know what those things are. Would they affect user experience? If so, how? It sounds like maybe some of the differences affect network speed, but I guess that wouln't make much difference for most users unless they were moving large files or collections of files on a NFS. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 19:14:49 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:14:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: <34346.49266.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <34346.49266.qm@web33714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > uh huh. this will be nice. umm... how am i supposed to do that? If you don't keep any scrap of the previous message in your reply, we can't be sure of what you are writing about. Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 20:12:34 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:12:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <612198.52659.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> and that he does alot of. he has this server virtual raid so the same data is on 16 stripe raids, which are translated into smb by a dif server. remember i am the he dude. my grandma is considering signing a contract to the school to set it. it is rather redundent. Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, steve ulrich wrote: >> i think the real irony in this thread is that ubuntu makes the dogs >> breakfast of linux more like freebsd in its operational elegance. >> >> fwiw - there are several things about freebsd's kernel which are >> definitely nicer than what's available on linux. notably in the >> networking realm. >> >> - 10GE optimizations w/TCP segment offload (linux might have this now) >> - SCTP - admittedly of niche interest, but this just works on freebsd and doesn't DIY brain surgery >> - soft updates for filesystem updates >> - pluggable network stack w/netgraph >> - kernel queues >> - accept filters >> - partial support for pf (which is just good enough to keep you from going to openbsd given how nice pf is.) > I have to admit that I don't know what those things are. Would they > affect user experience? If so, how? It sounds like maybe some of the > differences affect network speed, but I guess that wouln't make much > difference for most users unless they were moving large files or > collections of files on a NFS. > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 21:01:22 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:01:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <157037.63608.qm@web33712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> blame yahoo 4 that one. sometimes it leaves stuff, sometimes it dosnt. it dunt matter anymore Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> uh huh. this will be nice. umm... how am i supposed to do that? > If you don't keep any scrap of the previous message in your reply, we > can't be sure of what you are writing about. > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sun Dec 16 21:01:49 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:01:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] UbuntuBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <235774.46476.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> blame yahoo 4 that one. sometimes it leaves stuff, sometimes it dosnt. it dunt matter anymore Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> uh huh. this will be nice. umm... how am i supposed to do that? > If you don't keep any scrap of the previous message in your reply, we > can't be sure of what you are writing about. > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Dec 16 23:23:50 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:23:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: <612198.52659.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <612198.52659.qm@web33709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > and that he does alot of. he has this server virtual raid so the same > data is on 16 stripe raids, which are translated into smb by a dif > server. remember i am the he dude. my grandma is considering signing a > contract to the school to set it. it is rather redundent. I'm not sure I understand that configuration, but once you have a stable disk array and there is very little chance that it will fail, you still have to worry about a couple of other kinds of problems. One is theft of the computer. Another is catastrophic damage to the computer (e.g., flood, fire, tornado). So if you are going all out to be sure that the data are protected, you have to keep copies of your files in a second fairly distant physical location. Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 07:01:00 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 05:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <133650.69566.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> the location were it is less then a block from the firehouse, only one house between, we got an array of password locked doors, there isnt floods(rising more than one floor, we do occasionally get 2 in flash floodS, 2 of the stripe raids are backed up on 4 x 1 tb usb 2.0 external drives, and all my system contains is installed video games and video game saves. i am a video game fantic. each stripe raid is a single 4u 16 x 250 gb flash drive array. it may be turned so it holds what am building off feddora7 Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> and that he does alot of. he has this server virtual raid so the same >> data is on 16 stripe raids, which are translated into smb by a dif >> server. remember i am the he dude. my grandma is considering signing a >> contract to the school to set it. it is rather redundent. > I'm not sure I understand that configuration, but once you have a stable > disk array and there is very little chance that it will fail, you still > have to worry about a couple of other kinds of problems. One is theft of > the computer. Another is catastrophic damage to the computer (e.g., > flood, fire, tornado). So if you are going all out to be sure that the > data are protected, you have to keep copies of your files in a second > fairly distant physical location. > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Dec 17 08:57:19 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:57:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > A linux distribution is an independantly developed kernel + a bunch of > independantly developed 3rd party userland tools + an independantly > developed package management system + an independantly developed > installer released as an operating system. > > In FreeBSD (and the other BSD projects follow this model as well) the > installer, package management, userland, and kernel are all developed > together by the same project. > > Take for instance the split in development between gnu libc and the > linux kernel. At one point in the past it was a difficult enough > situation that the linux kernel crowd forked gnu libc so they could > maintain their own, and only their inability to keep up with feature > development sent them back to using straight gnu libc. So you end up in > a situation where the linux kernel devs criticize gnu libc and vice > versa...."You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" and in the > ultimate examples of absurdity the distros provide a fix! (a doesn't > worth with b so x provides a patch) > > That's what I mean by FreeBSD having a coherent development model. Those are the advantages of using FreeBSD instead of Linux? As a user, I don't see how that would help me at all. Why should I care, for example, about the history of glibc in relation to the Linux kernel? I see what you mean about coherence but I don't see why it would matter to me. Mike From josh at tcbug.org Mon Dec 17 08:51:17 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:51:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> On Sunday 16 December 2007 06:26:31 pm Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > >> What can he do with the Free BSD kernel that he can't do with the Linux > >> kernel? > > > > Probably nothing, and loses all the advantages of running FreeBSD in the > > first place....namely an OS that's coherently designed and not just some > > random collection of bits tossed in a sack together. > > What is incoherent in Linux that is coherent in FreeBSD? We must be > talking about apps or utilities or something. Are GNU utils incoherent > compared to FreeBSD utils? > > Mike > A linux distribution is an independantly developed kernel + a bunch of independantly developed 3rd party userland tools + an independantly developed package management system + an independantly developed installer released as an operating system. In FreeBSD (and the other BSD projects follow this model as well) the installer, package management, userland, and kernel are all developed together by the same project. Take for instance the split in development between gnu libc and the linux kernel. At one point in the past it was a difficult enough situation that the linux kernel crowd forked gnu libc so they could maintain their own, and only their inability to keep up with feature development sent them back to using straight gnu libc. So you end up in a situation where the linux kernel devs criticize gnu libc and vice versa...."You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" and in the ultimate examples of absurdity the distros provide a fix! (a doesn't worth with b so x provides a patch) That's what I mean by FreeBSD having a coherent development model. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071217/3fd06f20/attachment.pgp From florin at iucha.net Mon Dec 17 09:58:31 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:58:31 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > A linux distribution is an independantly developed kernel + a bunch of > > independantly developed 3rd party userland tools + an independantly > > developed package management system + an independantly developed > > installer released as an operating system. > > > > In FreeBSD (and the other BSD projects follow this model as well) the > > installer, package management, userland, and kernel are all developed > > together by the same project. And that is an advantage because...? Microsoft follows the same model. > > Take for instance the split in development between gnu libc and the > > linux kernel. At one point in the past it was a difficult enough > > situation that the linux kernel crowd forked gnu libc so they could > > maintain their own, and only their inability to keep up with feature > > development sent them back to using straight gnu libc. References? > > So you end up in > > a situation where the linux kernel devs criticize gnu libc and vice > > versa...."You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" and in the > > ultimate examples of absurdity the distros provide a fix! (a doesn't > > worth with b so x provides a patch) And in FreeBSD something like this never happen? Or in any reasonably large group of people that work to deliver a product? Like guys developing rocket engines and the guys developing the control logic, using different units of measure. There will always be friction at the interfaces. Be it a rock on a inclined plane or hardware and software or application and database or Tom & Jerry. > > That's what I mean by FreeBSD having a coherent development model. Lack of criticism between groups responsible for different layers? Or everybody changing everything at once, without regard for layers whatsoever? 'need more data'... 'need more data'... Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071217/a366a90e/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Dec 17 10:24:06 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:24:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: Just thought I'd mention why I care about such things. As a fairly high-end kind of user and one who sometimes oversees development projects, I want to be in touch with trends and I want to be using a system that is reasonably popular, future-oriented and that works well. Right now it looks to me like Linux is the best OS for me to be working on (I used to work mostly on Solaris). What will the future bring? I'm not sure, so I try to keep my eyes on the horizon in case something important is coming along. The user experience is determined mostly by the programs the user is using, including the shell, and this can be moved from one UNIXy OS to another. I think bash and GNU utils are the way to go right now. They work well and are widely used (by contrast Solaris has had a few really buggy or inefficient utils). I used tcsh for years but am switching to bash because, while only slightly better overall (I think), it is becoming more widely used that tcsh. Unless I'm missing something, kernel features don't seem to have a great impact on user experience, but it is essential that the kernel is stable and doesn't crash. Until FreeBSD is giving me something that I really care about that Linux can't give me, I'm not going to move away from Linux. Why would I? Today I'm not seeing a reason to study FreeBSD further. Maybe that will change someday. Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Mon Dec 17 22:43:32 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:43:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever Message-ID: <662853.44674.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> in sweden, famous rotten meat company microsoft attempted to bribe them to make microsofts standard of isos, that wont work for linux, the standard. i found this out by looking at svlugs website. i tested a copy of it and the program refused to translate ubuntu into there format. if this thing happens, linux will die, unless it becomes a dual standard. they actually paid money to change votes. i say, i have predicted it for a month, microsoft will fall like a billboard in a tornado. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Dec 17 23:10:54 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:10:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: <662853.44674.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <662853.44674.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > in sweden, famous rotten meat company microsoft attempted to bribe them > to make microsofts standard of isos, that wont work for linux, the > standard. i found this out by looking at svlugs website. i tested a copy > of it and the program refused to translate ubuntu into there format. > if this thing happens, linux will die, unless it becomes a dual > standard. they actually paid money to change votes. i say, i have > predicted it for a month, microsoft will fall like a billboard in a > tornado. Are you Swedish? It doesn't look like English is your first language. I couldn't really understand your message but I did a Google News search on "Microsoft Sweden" (without the quotes) and found this brand new entry on Slashdot: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/17/2340242 Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 06:56:03 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 04:56:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i am saying, sooner or later, it will be push comes to shove. in sweden, microsofts unworthy reign may fall because they are 1 producing horrible products 2 linux is gaining market share along with mac os x, microsoft advertises ubuntu on live.com marketplace 3 linux is becommimg easier to manage 4 more than 5000 people switch each day, and 5, florida has every school running linux distros of linux, and bsds. it may be just a thought, but i get a hunch that microsofts falling. all i said was my opinion Mike Miller wrote: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> in sweden, famous rotten meat company microsoft attempted to bribe them >> to make microsofts standard of isos, that wont work for linux, the >> standard. i found this out by looking at svlugs website. i tested a copy >> of it and the program refused to translate ubuntu into there format. >> if this thing happens, linux will die, unless it becomes a dual >> standard. they actually paid money to change votes. i say, i have >> predicted it for a month, microsoft will fall like a billboard in a >> tornado. > Are you Swedish? It doesn't look like English is your first language. I > couldn't really understand your message but I did a Google News search on > "Microsoft Sweden" (without the quotes) and found this brand new entry on > Slashdot: > http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/17/2340242 > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Dec 18 07:21:06 2007 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:21:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: On 12/17/07, Florin Iucha wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > > > A linux distribution is an independantly developed kernel + a bunch of > > > independantly developed 3rd party userland tools + an independantly > > > developed package management system + an independantly developed > > > installer released as an operating system. > > > > > > In FreeBSD (and the other BSD projects follow this model as well) the > > > installer, package management, userland, and kernel are all developed > > > together by the same project. > > And that is an advantage because...? Microsoft follows the same > model. it's an advantage for the end user because he knows that he has consistency and coherence across the kernel and the critical elements of user space. not necessarily from the perspective of making things work, although in my experience it certainly does, but because the end users get a consistent system with a _known_ suite of elements. on a *BSD system i know that i'm going to have a certain well defined set of libraries, utilities and a well honed upgrade path. it doesn't vary from distribution to distribution. things just work. i got a baseline OS and i could layer applications onto it in an entirely separate mode of operation. setting aside the relative merits of the kernel and such, it's simply a matter of operational preference. as a guy who would get paged for something (mercifully no more) i wanted to have a well established baseline with known system elements and commitments to backport features or bugs or security issues. i got that w/freebsd. the community is very good about backports and addressing _system_ bugs and security issues. while in the linux world that responsibility falls upon the distribution to take care of. > > > Take for instance the split in development between gnu libc and the > > > linux kernel. At one point in the past it was a difficult enough > > > situation that the linux kernel crowd forked gnu libc so they could > > > maintain their own, and only their inability to keep up with feature > > > development sent them back to using straight gnu libc. > > References? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library - see the section called "a temporary fork" having lived through that it wasn't pretty and pushed me to freebsd for production boxes pretty quickly. i simply didn't have time for that. fwiw - i don't care about the politics and such associated with this, i just need to have stuff that works and works with a minimum of fuss. i'm trying to make money. i'm kind of mercenary like that and diversions like this are wasted time for what i'm usually trying to accomplish. clearly this situation has been fixed in linux and we're all moving forward. :) > > > So you end up in > > > a situation where the linux kernel devs criticize gnu libc and vice > > > versa...."You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" and in the > > > ultimate examples of absurdity the distros provide a fix! (a doesn't > > > worth with b so x provides a patch) > > And in FreeBSD something like this never happen? Or in any reasonably > large group of people that work to deliver a product? Like guys > developing rocket engines and the guys developing the control logic, > using different units of measure. > > There will always be friction at the interfaces. Be it a rock on a > inclined plane or hardware and software or application and database or > Tom & Jerry. > > > > That's what I mean by FreeBSD having a coherent development model. > > Lack of criticism between groups responsible for different layers? Or > everybody changing everything at once, without regard for layers > whatsoever? the freebsd development processes are hardly criticism free. there's just more (IMHO) rigor around what goes into a release. fwiw - i've found ubuntu (especially ubuntu server) to be a release that exhibits an impressive amount release rigor and commitment to backporting and acknowledging that folks have a need to focus on their on their core development/business/scientific problems and not on their linux system maintenance issues and noodling on how they're going to make libthreads+libcfoo+yourmoms_patch work and then push it out to a bunch of machines. which has historically been my frustration. people addressing the _system_ management issues and providing rigorous integration and support deserve a lot of credit/praise. kudos to the ubuntu folks and the shoulders they've stood on. > 'need more data'... 'need more data'... -- steve ulrich (sulrich at botwerks.*) From florin at iucha.net Tue Dec 18 08:49:38 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:49:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 07:21:06AM -0600, steve ulrich wrote: > On 12/17/07, Florin Iucha wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > > > > > A linux distribution is an independantly developed kernel + a bunch of > > > > independantly developed 3rd party userland tools + an independantly > > > > developed package management system + an independantly developed > > > > installer released as an operating system. > > > > > > > > In FreeBSD (and the other BSD projects follow this model as well) the > > > > installer, package management, userland, and kernel are all developed > > > > together by the same project. > > > > And that is an advantage because...? Microsoft follows the same > > model. > > it's an advantage for the end user because he knows that he has > consistency and coherence across the kernel and the critical elements > of user space. What is this consistency and coherence that you are talking about? The fact that all the user-space apps included on the CD run properly with the kernel and libc included on the CD? > not necessarily from the perspective of making things > work, although in my experience it certainly does, but because the end > users get a consistent system with a _known_ suite of elements. Again the word 'consistent'. And about _known_ - that's no big deal: you have the source code, you can _know_ what you are running, should you care to look at it. Do you review the source code deltas before upgrading your machines? > on a *BSD system i know that i'm going to have a certain well defined > set of libraries, utilities and a well honed upgrade path. it doesn't > vary from distribution to distribution. things just work. i got a > baseline OS and i could layer applications onto it in an entirely > separate mode of operation. I would still say that Debian system takes better care of upgrades, preserving or updating configuration as necessary, than the *BSD pkg. > setting aside the relative merits of the kernel and such, it's simply > a matter of operational preference. Now you are talking, and I understand and respect that. > as a guy who would get paged for > something (mercifully no more) i wanted to have a well established > baseline with known system elements and commitments to backport > features or bugs or security issues. i got that w/freebsd. the > community is very good about backports and addressing _system_ bugs > and security issues. while in the linux world that responsibility > falls upon the distribution to take care of. While in the FreeBSD world that responsibility fails upon the distribution too, except that is a different role assigned to the same group. It is not necessarily better, just different. Can you point me to a security patch for a distro supported linux application or library that would have been done 'better' if performed by the upstream rather than RedHat, Debian, SuSE/Novell, etc? If not, then your original point is shaky. > > > > Take for instance the split in development between gnu libc and the > > > > linux kernel. At one point in the past it was a difficult enough > > > > situation that the linux kernel crowd forked gnu libc so they could > > > > maintain their own, and only their inability to keep up with feature > > > > development sent them back to using straight gnu libc. > > > > References? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_C_Library - see the section called "a > temporary fork" Well, I read the reference and I have to object to your interpretation. The Linux kernel developers forked the GNU libc so they can have a more efficient integration (sort of what you argue as being so good in FreeBSD) between the kernel and the libc, not "so they could maintain their own". Read Linus' concerns regarding the GNU Libc here (referenced from the article you cited): http://ecos.sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2002-01/msg00079.html > having lived through that it wasn't pretty and pushed me to freebsd > for production boxes pretty quickly. i simply didn't have time for > that. > > fwiw - i don't care about the politics and such associated with this, > i just need to have stuff that works and works with a minimum of fuss. > i'm trying to make money. i'm kind of mercenary like that and > diversions like this are wasted time for what i'm usually trying to > accomplish. I'm fine with that. But don't extrapolate from your personal comfort to a general 'goodness' measure. > clearly this situation has been fixed in linux and we're all moving forward. :) OK. I'm glad that you've seen the light 8^) florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/0ec0b00e/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 08:53:22 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:53:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > i am saying, sooner or later, it will be push comes to shove. in > sweden, microsofts unworthy reign may fall because they are 1 producing > horrible products 2 linux is gaining market share along with mac os x, > microsoft advertises ubuntu on live.com marketplace 3 linux is becommimg > easier to manage 4 more than 5000 people switch each day, and 5, florida > has every school running linux distros of linux, and bsds. it may be > just a thought, but i get a hunch that microsofts falling. all i said > was my opinion I wasn't saying that what you wrote was not your opinion or that you were incorrect, I was just saying that what you wrote was incomprehensible, like you were struggling to write in the English language and barely succeeding, so I thought maybe you were Swedish. Look at what you wrote above as another example -- isn't it a mess? I can understand you better this time, but what does it mean to be "running linux distros of linux?" Mike > Mike Miller wrote: >> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >>> in sweden, famous rotten meat company microsoft attempted to bribe them >>> to make microsofts standard of isos, that wont work for linux, the >>> standard. i found this out by looking at svlugs website. i tested a copy >>> of it and the program refused to translate ubuntu into there format. >>> if this thing happens, linux will die, unless it becomes a dual >>> standard. they actually paid money to change votes. i say, i have >>> predicted it for a month, microsoft will fall like a billboard in a >>> tornado. >> Are you Swedish? It doesn't look like English is your first language. I >> couldn't really understand your message but I did a Google News search on >> "Microsoft Sweden" (without the quotes) and found this brand new entry on >> Slashdot: >> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/17/2340242 >> Mike From canito at dalan.us Tue Dec 18 09:22:51 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:22:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Window Shopping? In-Reply-To: References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> Good Day: So I here I am again, looking to slowly build some experience. I just installed Virtualbox with the "intent" to run AsteriskNow with a few IP phones. Searching for an inexpensive phone, I came across the Nortel Meridian for $65 + shipping, to me this still seems a bit pricy? Ebay: http://tinyurl.com/2uppyq Two q's, which VoIP software out there do you ladies or gentleman recommend? Does anyone have a spare VoIP phone up or sale? David ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From progressivepenguin at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 09:30:18 2007 From: progressivepenguin at gmail.com (Steve T) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:30:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Window Shopping? In-Reply-To: <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <7156d5f20712180730j2d32fa5je6887465dce14bf7@mail.gmail.com> Same here. I will be setting up VOIP in our new place and am looking for a good hardware / software combination (reasonably priced). On 12/18/07, David Alanis wrote: > > Good Day: > > which VoIP software out there do you ladies or gentleman recommend? > > -- "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!" -- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/f9ed5c69/attachment-0001.htm From erikerik at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 09:45:47 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:45:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Window Shopping? In-Reply-To: <7156d5f20712180730j2d32fa5je6887465dce14bf7@mail.gmail.com> References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> <7156d5f20712180730j2d32fa5je6887465dce14bf7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2007 9:30 AM, Steve T wrote: > Same here. I will be setting up VOIP in our new place and am looking for a > good hardware / software combination (reasonably priced). I've nearly completed an asterisk rollout here - we're using asterisk 1.4 at our HQ and 1.2 at 4 branch offices around the world. Each office has their own connection to the PSTN (either ISDN-PRI or ISDN-BRI) as well as being connected to all the other offices with IAX2 trunking over our VPN. It works *really* slick, and aside from some stupid dialplan programming errors on my part, we haven't had a single problem in the year or so since starting the rollout. At each location, we're running asterisk on top of Gentoo linux with Dell poweredge hardware. As far as linecards go, we're exclusively a Sangoma shop - we order the hardware echo cancellation chips with their cards, and find them to be of excellent quality. Their tech support is second to none, IMHO. As far as phones go, the vast majority of people are using Linksys SPA941s (about $125), though we have several people that are using the X-Lite softphone. I've also recently purchased a few Polycom 501s for review. They're a few dollars more expensive than the Linksys phones, but from what I can tell, are of significantly higher build quality. I'm still working on an automatic provisioning system for the polycoms, so we'll see how they fare when that's complete. -Erik From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 09:45:38 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:45:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 07:21:06AM -0600, steve ulrich wrote: > >> not necessarily from the perspective of making things >> work, although in my experience it certainly does, but because the end >> users get a consistent system with a _known_ suite of elements. > > Again the word 'consistent'. And about _known_ - that's no big deal: > you have the source code, you can _know_ what you are running, should > you care to look at it. Do you review the source code deltas before > upgrading your machines? For me, GNU is known. It's been ported to other OSs for more than a decade and I use GNU software all the time on Solaris and Linux systems. So if I switched to FreeBSD, I'd be entering the unknown because most BSD systems are not running the GNU software. >> on a *BSD system i know that i'm going to have a certain well defined >> set of libraries, utilities and a well honed upgrade path. it doesn't >> vary from distribution to distribution. things just work. i got a >> baseline OS and i could layer applications onto it in an entirely >> separate mode of operation. What varies between Linux distros? I'd like to know more about that. Unless the BSD systems never change over time, you do have the problem of changes in new releases. Another point: Why should variation among Linux OSs be a problem for a user who uses only one of them? Why would you want to run a bunch of different BSD systems and switch between them? One obvious disadvantage of BSD systems is that they are not Linux -- if you try to use a Linux system you might have some problems because you are used to BSD. Mike From thurianknight at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 10:34:43 2007 From: thurianknight at gmail.com (Dave Sherman) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 10:34:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Window Shopping? In-Reply-To: <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <7bdea6e30712180834nb02fe7cl6fe7daa14507b003@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 18, 2007 9:22 AM, David Alanis wrote: > Two q's, which VoIP software out there do you ladies or gentleman recommend? > > Does anyone have a spare VoIP phone up or sale? I've done 2 rollouts of Asterisk, using Snom 320 IP phones for both. They seemed to be about mid-range in terms of pricing, but they gave us an easy way to automatically configure them via the network -- a combination of DHCP and a LAMP-based website (the phones take a simple html config file, so you can use whatever technology you want to generate that file). As for soft-phones, we have experimented with JPhone, but never did much with it. I've heard there are several IM clients that can be configured to ask as a SIP client, which would be pretty cool. Alas, no spare hardware to sell right now. -- Dave Sherman MCSA, MCSE, CCNA Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware. From sulrich at botwerks.org Tue Dec 18 07:45:09 2007 From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 07:45:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/07, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, steve ulrich wrote: > > > i think the real irony in this thread is that ubuntu makes the dogs > > breakfast of linux more like freebsd in its operational elegance. > > > > fwiw - there are several things about freebsd's kernel which are > > definitely nicer than what's available on linux. notably in the > > networking realm. > > > > - 10GE optimizations w/TCP segment offload (linux might have this now) > > - SCTP - admittedly of niche interest, but this just works on freebsd and doesn't DIY brain surgery > > - soft updates for filesystem updates > > - pluggable network stack w/netgraph > > - kernel queues > > - accept filters > > - partial support for pf (which is just good enough to keep you from going to openbsd given how nice pf is.) > > I have to admit that I don't know what those things are. Would they > affect user experience? If so, how? It sounds like maybe some of the > differences affect network speed, but I guess that wouln't make much > difference for most users unless they were moving large files or > collections of files on a NFS. these aren't of widespread interest outside the realm of server applications or networking geeks. i.e.: the average user reading email or running applications won't care a bit about this stuff. the guy running a large production server with a lot of traffic on it, does. the guy debugging something on a relatively latency free lab network that needs to debug something that manifests itself in lossy networks or wants to shim something in the stack, does like this stuff. these are kernel elements which most folks (or workstation users) don't care about . -- steve ulrich (sulrich at botwerks.*) From drue at therub.org Tue Dec 18 11:04:49 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:04:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 08:49:38AM -0600, Florin Iucha wrote: > What is this consistency and coherence that you are talking about? > The fact that all the user-space apps included on the CD run properly > with the kernel and libc included on the CD? Alright, let me give this a shot. I think what Josh and Steve are getting at, is FreeBSD's concept of a base system. FreeBSD has a *very* strict file hierarchy (man hier in freebsd or see http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=hier&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.3-RELEASE&format=html). What this means is that there is strict separation between the core operating system and third party packages. The core OS includes the kernel, but also a couple of editors (vi and ee), a couple of shells (tcsh, csh, sh), core libs, bind 9, and a few other things. The nice thing about that is that those things are guaranteed by the FreeBSD team and you never have to worry about the most basic parts of your OS being damaged by a package upgrade, for instance. I remember a few years ago watching dselect in debian remove the entire OS, including the kernel and dselect itself. While it was a PEBKAC/user error - that can never happen in FreeBSD (using package tools). In fact, you can mount the base part of freebsd read-only, to really prevent such occurrences. One nice thing about all of this from my (the admin's) perspective, is that FreeBSD's base config files live in /etc, and ALL third party configurations live in /usr/local/etc. In fact, all third party ports/packages get installed to /usr/local. No matter how badly you hose up your box, it is safe to rm -rf /usr/local/ and (and /var/db/pkg and maybe one or two other spots) and start over. Now, I am not trying to troll tclug here; just trying to clarify a core difference between FreeBSD and linux. Dan From tclug at natecarlson.com Tue Dec 18 11:15:55 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:15:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Window Shopping? In-Reply-To: <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> References: <790704.49456.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218092251.0tif08h3vlco8wc4@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, David Alanis wrote: > Searching for an inexpensive phone, I came across the Nortel Meridian > for $65 + shipping, to me this still seems a bit pricy? That phone won't do SIP. You can use it with Asterisk's UNISTIM channel, but it's not 'open' in any way.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From obelin23 at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 14:40:38 2007 From: obelin23 at gmail.com (Charlie O) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:40:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] copying a Windows load image with Linux Message-ID: <72278d10712181240v145a3036n87b339aaa5d84063@mail.gmail.com> I'm going to be setting up a dual boot machine, with XP and Linux. I want to have more than one XP image with different software releases, so I want to copy 2 complete XP images to spare partitions, and then load whichever one I want to run. I know there is image ghosting software available, but it seems to me I should be able to accomplish the same thing with the copy command and the right switches. Am I right? Charlie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/e923c6e3/attachment.htm From florin at iucha.net Tue Dec 18 14:53:48 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:53:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] copying a Windows load image with Linux In-Reply-To: <72278d10712181240v145a3036n87b339aaa5d84063@mail.gmail.com> References: <72278d10712181240v145a3036n87b339aaa5d84063@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071218205348.GG22193@iucha.net> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 02:40:38PM -0600, Charlie O wrote: > I'm going to be setting up a dual boot machine, with XP and Linux. I want > to have more than one XP image with different software releases, so I want > to copy 2 complete XP images to spare partitions, and then load whichever > one I want to run. This will be tricky, as you'll need grub to 'hide' one partition or another [1]. > I know there is image ghosting software available, but it seems to me I > should be able to accomplish the same thing with the copy command and the > right switches. Am I right? Close. You copy raw partitions with 'dd'. You'll need partitions that are at least as large as the source. Use the -u command argument to fdisk when comparing partition sizes so you don't get tricked by different hardware 'geometries'. Cheers, florin 1: http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Multiboot-with-GRUB.html -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/08eceb1c/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 15:26:53 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:26:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > FreeBSD has a *very* strict file hierarchy (man hier in freebsd or see > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=hier&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.3-RELEASE&format=html). > What this means is that there is strict separation between the core > operating system and third party packages. The core OS includes the > kernel, but also a couple of editors (vi and ee), a couple of shells > (tcsh, csh, sh), core libs, bind 9, and a few other things. The nice > thing about that is that those things are guaranteed by the FreeBSD team > and you never have to worry about the most basic parts of your OS being > damaged by a package upgrade, for instance. > > I remember a few years ago watching dselect in debian remove the entire > OS, including the kernel and dselect itself. While it was a PEBKAC/user > error - that can never happen in FreeBSD (using package tools). In > fact, you can mount the base part of freebsd read-only, to really > prevent such occurrences. This would be someone logged on as root, I assume (i.e., the sys admin). Is it not possible to mount corresponding files in the Linux system as read-only? > One nice thing about all of this from my (the admin's) perspective, is > that FreeBSD's base config files live in /etc, and ALL third party > configurations live in /usr/local/etc. In fact, all third party > ports/packages get installed to /usr/local. No matter how badly you > hose up your box, it is safe to rm -rf /usr/local/ and (and /var/db/pkg > and maybe one or two other spots) and start over. Can't things also be installed on a Linux system so that they are entirely within /usr/local? That's what I usually do with ./configure prefix=/usr/local But that is the typical default path, so the prefix is usually not specified. I like your idea but I don't see why it can't be done in Linux too. Maybe it's a lot easier to pull it off in FreeBSD. > Now, I am not trying to troll tclug here; just trying to clarify a core > difference between FreeBSD and linux. Your comments are much appreciated, Dan. I also am not trying to start a battle, I just want to learn some things. Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 15:46:21 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD's superior kernel features In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334631.1599.qm@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> all the better. i like speed to zip faster. that is why i am considering putting in a wireless n/ gbit network with verision 150 mbit backbone into my system and a hacked linksys router/firewall with freebsd kernel. that is why i have 3 computers, freebsd desktop, reactos desktop, and ubuntu 7.10 server, with reactos's kernel hacked to be much faster. steve ulrich wrote: > On 12/16/07, Mike Miller wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007, steve ulrich wrote: >> >> > i think the real irony in this thread is that ubuntu makes the dogs >> > breakfast of linux more like freebsd in its operational elegance. >> > >> > fwiw - there are several things about freebsd's kernel which are >> > definitely nicer than what's available on linux. notably in the >> > networking realm. >> > >> > - 10GE optimizations w/TCP segment offload (linux might have this now) >> > - SCTP - admittedly of niche interest, but this just works on freebsd and doesn't DIY brain surgery >> > - soft updates for filesystem updates >> > - pluggable network stack w/netgraph >> > - kernel queues >> > - accept filters >> > - partial support for pf (which is just good enough to keep you from going to openbsd given how nice pf is.) >> >> I have to admit that I don't know what those things are. Would they >> affect user experience? If so, how? It sounds like maybe some of the >> differences affect network speed, but I guess that wouln't make much >> difference for most users unless they were moving large files or >> collections of files on a NFS. > these aren't of widespread interest outside the realm of server > applications or networking geeks. i.e.: the average user reading email > or running applications won't care a bit about this stuff. the guy > running a large production server with a lot of traffic on it, does. > the guy debugging something on a relatively latency free lab network > that needs to debug something that manifests itself in lossy networks > or wants to shim something in the stack, does like this stuff. > these are kernel elements which most folks (or workstation users) > don't care about . > -- > steve ulrich (sulrich at botwerks.*) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From drue at therub.org Tue Dec 18 15:52:48 2007 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:52:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> Message-ID: <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 03:26:53PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > >> FreeBSD has a *very* strict file hierarchy (man hier in freebsd or see >> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=hier&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+6.3-RELEASE&format=html). >> What this means is that there is strict separation between the core >> operating system and third party packages. The core OS includes the >> kernel, but also a couple of editors (vi and ee), a couple of shells >> (tcsh, csh, sh), core libs, bind 9, and a few other things. The nice >> thing about that is that those things are guaranteed by the FreeBSD team >> and you never have to worry about the most basic parts of your OS being >> damaged by a package upgrade, for instance. >> >> I remember a few years ago watching dselect in debian remove the entire >> OS, including the kernel and dselect itself. While it was a PEBKAC/user >> error - that can never happen in FreeBSD (using package tools). In fact, >> you can mount the base part of freebsd read-only, to really prevent such >> occurrences. > > This would be someone logged on as root, I assume (i.e., the sys admin). Is > it not possible to mount corresponding files in the Linux system as > read-only? > > >> One nice thing about all of this from my (the admin's) perspective, is >> that FreeBSD's base config files live in /etc, and ALL third party >> configurations live in /usr/local/etc. In fact, all third party >> ports/packages get installed to /usr/local. No matter how badly you >> hose up your box, it is safe to rm -rf /usr/local/ and (and /var/db/pkg >> and maybe one or two other spots) and start over. > > Can't things also be installed on a Linux system so that they are entirely > within /usr/local? That's what I usually do with > > ./configure prefix=/usr/local > > But that is the typical default path, so the prefix is usually not > specified. I like your idea but I don't see why it can't be done in Linux > too. Maybe it's a lot easier to pull it off in FreeBSD. > With respect, I think you missed the point. Sure, it's possible to do these things in Linux. It's an open source OS, you can do whatever you want. But in FreeBSD, it's not only default, it's very strict and the same no matter who's maintaining the machines (unless they go out of their way to break it, that is). So if linux packages by default go in /usr/local, what goes in /? I know linux configs always go to /etc. I imagine some packages will install to /bin, and some to /usr/local/bin? Is it just ad-hoc based on the mood of the maintainer? This is what I mean by having a *strict* hierarchy. A freebsd port maintainer would get beat if they installed something to /etc, or to /bin, or to /lib, .. etc. Dan From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 16:06:00 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:06:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > With respect, I think you missed the point. I don't doubt you! > Sure, it's possible to do these things in Linux. It's an open source > OS, you can do whatever you want. But can you do it without changing source code and recompiling anything? If it's just a matter of setting file permissions, something like that, it isn't much of a big deal. I mean, you wouldn't really choose an OS based on some of its defaults when those settings could have been configured however you wanted, right? > But in FreeBSD, it's not only default, it's very strict and the same no > matter who's maintaining the machines (unless they go out of their way > to break it, that is). So it's more than just configuration. > So if linux packages by default go in /usr/local, what goes in /? I > know linux configs always go to /etc. I imagine some packages will > install to /bin, and some to /usr/local/bin? Is it just ad-hoc based on > the mood of the maintainer? This is what I mean by having a *strict* > hierarchy. A freebsd port maintainer would get beat if they installed > something to /etc, or to /bin, or to /lib, .. etc. I really don't know the answers to all of these questions. I have mostly been working on Linux systems that are maintained by others (e.g., MSI supercomputers) and I actually do this: ./configure prefix=/home/myhomedir/local I compile everything and decide where it goes. So I haven't been using packages on Linux. That will change shortly, I'm sure! I'm getting the impression that package installation in Linux can be pretty haphazard. Mike From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 16:10:02 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:10:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <349028.78947.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i type with a cell phone. i am native born to the usa. if it is bad, i dont have a smartphone. Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> i am saying, sooner or later, it will be push comes to shove. in >> sweden, microsofts unworthy reign may fall because they are 1 producing >> horrible products 2 linux is gaining market share along with mac os x, >> microsoft advertises ubuntu on live.com marketplace 3 linux is becommimg >> easier to manage 4 more than 5000 people switch each day, and 5, florida >> has every school running linux distros of linux, and bsds. it may be >> just a thought, but i get a hunch that microsofts falling. all i said >> was my opinion > I wasn't saying that what you wrote was not your opinion or that you were > incorrect, I was just saying that what you wrote was incomprehensible, > like you were struggling to write in the English language and barely > succeeding, so I thought maybe you were Swedish. Look at what you wrote > above as another example -- isn't it a mess? I can understand you better > this time, but what does it mean to be "running linux distros of linux?" > Mike >> Mike Miller wrote: >>> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >>>> in sweden, famous rotten meat company microsoft attempted to bribe them >>>> to make microsofts standard of isos, that wont work for linux, the >>>> standard. i found this out by looking at svlugs website. i tested a copy >>>> of it and the program refused to translate ubuntu into there format. >>>> if this thing happens, linux will die, unless it becomes a dual >>>> standard. they actually paid money to change votes. i say, i have >>>> predicted it for a month, microsoft will fall like a billboard in a >>>> tornado. >>> Are you Swedish? It doesn't look like English is your first language. I >>> couldn't really understand your message but I did a Google News search on >>> "Microsoft Sweden" (without the quotes) and found this brand new entry on >>> Slashdot: >>> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/17/2340242 >>> Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 16:23:03 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:23:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Rue > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:53 PM > To: Mike Miller > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence > > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 03:26:53PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > > > > > >> One nice thing about all of this from my (the admin's) perspective, is > >> that FreeBSD's base config files live in /etc, and ALL third party > >> configurations live in /usr/local/etc. In fact, all third party > >> ports/packages get installed to /usr/local. No matter how badly you > >> hose up your box, it is safe to rm -rf /usr/local/ and (and /var/db/pkg > >> and maybe one or two other spots) and start over. > > > > Can't things also be installed on a Linux system so that they > are entirely > > within /usr/local? That's what I usually do with > > > > ./configure prefix=/usr/local > > > > But that is the typical default path, so the prefix is usually not > > specified. I like your idea but I don't see why it can't be > done in Linux > > too. Maybe it's a lot easier to pull it off in FreeBSD. > > > > With respect, I think you missed the point. > > Sure, it's possible to do these things in Linux. It's an open source > OS, you can do whatever you want. But in FreeBSD, it's not only > default, it's very strict and the same no matter who's maintaining the > machines (unless they go out of their way to break it, that is). > > So if linux packages by default go in /usr/local, what goes in /? I > know linux configs always go to /etc. I imagine some packages will > install to /bin, and some to /usr/local/bin? Is it just ad-hoc based on > the mood of the maintainer? This is what I mean by having a *strict* > hierarchy. A freebsd port maintainer would get beat if they installed > something to /etc, or to /bin, or to /lib, .. etc. > > Dan Seem both feasible and desirable to make some sort of after-the-fact "rule checker" for Linux to self-enforce such a discipline and detect when something new is contrary. Might need some heuristics in any case, but that tool would preserve the option to take exception as well as the check for anomalies. I think I'd prefer the rule checker since scope and completeness become verifiable and not just an "implied mystique" of the OS. Chuck From josh at tcbug.org Tue Dec 18 16:29:15 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:29:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> Message-ID: <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> On Tuesday 18 December 2007 04:06:00 pm Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > > With respect, I think you missed the point. > > I don't doubt you! > > > Sure, it's possible to do these things in Linux. It's an open source > > OS, you can do whatever you want. > > But can you do it without changing source code and recompiling anything? > If it's just a matter of setting file permissions, something like that, it > isn't much of a big deal. I mean, you wouldn't really choose an OS based > on some of its defaults when those settings could have been configured > however you wanted, right? > > > But in FreeBSD, it's not only default, it's very strict and the same no > > matter who's maintaining the machines (unless they go out of their way > > to break it, that is). > > So it's more than just configuration. > > > So if linux packages by default go in /usr/local, what goes in /? I > > know linux configs always go to /etc. I imagine some packages will > > install to /bin, and some to /usr/local/bin? Is it just ad-hoc based on > > the mood of the maintainer? This is what I mean by having a *strict* > > hierarchy. A freebsd port maintainer would get beat if they installed > > something to /etc, or to /bin, or to /lib, .. etc. > > I really don't know the answers to all of these questions. I have mostly > been working on Linux systems that are maintained by others (e.g., MSI > supercomputers) and I actually do this: > > ./configure prefix=/home/myhomedir/local > > I compile everything and decide where it goes. So I haven't been using > packages on Linux. That will change shortly, I'm sure! > > I'm getting the impression that package installation in Linux can be > pretty haphazard. > > Mike > In most linux distros the package management does not install stuff in to /usr/local Configs go in /etc binaries in /usr/bin, but you need to understand that's there's just really no difference between ls and apache in linux, they are both 3rd party apps. To put them in different places would introduce an artificial distinction that isn't really there. In the BSD's ls is developed with the OS, apache is not, ls is in /bin, apache is in /usr/local Your use case of compiling everything by hand doesn't extend well to production environments at all....not having things under package management of some sort quickly turns in to a nightmere to maintain. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/3613c111/attachment.pgp From josh at tcbug.org Tue Dec 18 16:36:28 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:36:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712181636.32331.josh@tcbug.org> On Tuesday 18 December 2007 04:23:03 pm Chuck Cole wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Rue > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:53 PM > > To: Mike Miller > > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence > > > > On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 03:26:53PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Dan Rue wrote: > > >> One nice thing about all of this from my (the admin's) perspective, is > > >> that FreeBSD's base config files live in /etc, and ALL third party > > >> configurations live in /usr/local/etc. In fact, all third party > > >> ports/packages get installed to /usr/local. No matter how badly you > > >> hose up your box, it is safe to rm -rf /usr/local/ and (and > > >> /var/db/pkg and maybe one or two other spots) and start over. > > > > > > Can't things also be installed on a Linux system so that they > > > > are entirely > > > > > within /usr/local? That's what I usually do with > > > > > > ./configure prefix=/usr/local > > > > > > But that is the typical default path, so the prefix is usually not > > > specified. I like your idea but I don't see why it can't be > > > > done in Linux > > > > > too. Maybe it's a lot easier to pull it off in FreeBSD. > > > > With respect, I think you missed the point. > > > > Sure, it's possible to do these things in Linux. It's an open source > > OS, you can do whatever you want. But in FreeBSD, it's not only > > default, it's very strict and the same no matter who's maintaining the > > machines (unless they go out of their way to break it, that is). > > > > So if linux packages by default go in /usr/local, what goes in /? I > > know linux configs always go to /etc. I imagine some packages will > > install to /bin, and some to /usr/local/bin? Is it just ad-hoc based on > > the mood of the maintainer? This is what I mean by having a *strict* > > hierarchy. A freebsd port maintainer would get beat if they installed > > something to /etc, or to /bin, or to /lib, .. etc. > > > > Dan > > Seem both feasible and desirable to make some sort of after-the-fact "rule > checker" for Linux to self-enforce such a discipline and detect when > something new is contrary. Might need some heuristics in any case, but > that tool would preserve the option to take exception as well as the check > for anomalies. I think I'd prefer the rule checker since scope and > completeness become verifiable and not just an "implied mystique" of the > OS. > > > Chuck > Are you suggesting that it's easier to have a tool that tells you things are in the 'wrong place' than to just put them in the right place in the first place? That seems counter-intuitive to me, it's always less work and more robust to do it right the first time than to do it wrong and have a second-pass try and fix it. There is no 'implied mystique' in the FreeBSD ports tree. LOCALBASE is set to /usr/local, everything in the ports tree defaults to installing under that hierarchy. A port *can* override LOCALBASE, and in very rare occassions it's permitted....for instance, if the port installs a kernel module of some sort it has to be able to make it's way in to the root filesystem....but the vast majority of the 18,000+ apps in the ports tree simply do not put anything outside of /usr/local and it manages to happen without having to somehow clean up after the fact. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/033e04a9/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 16:59:02 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:59:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: <349028.78947.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <349028.78947.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > i type with a cell phone. i am native born to the usa. if it is bad, i > dont have a smartphone. That explains it! Wow -- that's a lot of work. Maybe you can buy a little keyboard for it! I have a smart-enough phone (Treo 600) and I even bought the external folding keyboard for it recently for only $60 (it has a useable built-in keypad). It's a pretty amazing little thing, that keyboard. I plan to use it when traveling. Best, Mike From strayf at freeshell.org Tue Dec 18 17:00:37 2007 From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:00:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> Message-ID: <47685115.8090504@freeshell.org> Mike Miller wrote: > [...] > I'm getting the impression that package installation in Linux can be > pretty haphazard. It used to be pretty haphazard. It seems like it's moving toward a pretty consistent standard with LSB and the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. http://proton.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html -Steve From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 17:15:21 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:15:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > In most linux distros the package management does not install stuff in > to /usr/local Configs go in /etc binaries in /usr/bin, but you need to > understand that's there's just really no difference between ls and > apache in linux, they are both 3rd party apps. To put them in different > places would introduce an artificial distinction that isn't really > there. In the BSD's ls is developed with the OS, apache is not, ls is > in /bin, apache is in /usr/local Yes! Now I get it. We could do the same kind of thing in Linux by considering the standard GNU utils (Coreutils, Fileutils, Shellutils and Textutils) to be part of the Linux base (GNU/Linux base?) and then put everything else in /usr/local. I'd like that, I think. On Solaris I have ended up with most packages /opt and with most compiled programs in /usr/local, but the stuff in /opt doesn't have a single bin directory -- every program is in it's own directory. So to use the stuff in /opt, I either have to create a symlink from /usr/local/bin, type the full path to the executable, or change my path to add the new directory. All of those choices are hassles. > Your use case of compiling everything by hand doesn't extend well to > production environments at all....not having things under package > management of some sort quickly turns in to a nightmere to maintain. I'm sure you are right. What is the trick to doing it well? Can I compile in a way that creates a package, then install the package? That would seem to provide the best of both worlds, perhaps at a little extra cost in terms of effort during installation. Is it possible to know before installing a package that it will all go into /usr/local? Or can that be something that the package command will allow me to determine? It would be nice if providers would start making their packages work that way. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 17:31:59 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:31:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <47685115.8090504@freeshell.org> References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712160321.49603.josh@tcbug.org> <200712170851.21649.josh@tcbug.org> <20071217155830.GS4456@iucha.net> <20071218144938.GC22193@iucha.net> <20071218170448.GL92078@therub.org> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> <47685115.8090504@freeshell.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Steve Cayford wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: >> [...] >> I'm getting the impression that package installation in Linux can be >> pretty haphazard. > > It used to be pretty haphazard. It seems like it's moving toward a > pretty consistent standard with LSB and the Filesystem Hierarchy > Standard. > > http://proton.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html Thanks for mentioning LSB. I was going to ask about that. It seems highly relevant to our current discussion. It must have been 5 years ago that I first heard of it and since then I thought it was being adopted widely. We also have POSIX and SUS. You'd think these things would impose enough structure on the system to protect us from some of the problems just described, but I guess not. By the way, why doesn't LINUX stand for "LINUX Is Not UniX"? It should! (I assume most of you know that GNU stands for "GNU's Not Unix" and PHP stands for "PHP Hypertext Processor".) I hadn't thought of it before, or heard it before, but I'm not surprised to see that I wasn't the first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Linux/Archive1 Linus would have been way cleverer if he had come up with the abbreviation, I think, and let people notice the similarity with his name instead of just saying that he had named it after himself. Mike From srcfoo at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 17:33:12 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:33:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712181533q66716ffbu3daa5b25a79f50f9@mail.gmail.com> On 12/18/07, Mike Miller wrote: > Can I compile in a way that creates a package, then install the package? Mike, I would suggest checking out Gentoo if this is the way you want to work. I've used it in the past and its 'emerge' tool does what you're looking for (more or less). Personally, I have abandoned Gentoo since I found that compiling packages required too much of my time, but it sounds like you're used to that way of doing things so it probably wouldn't bother you. Cheers, Eric From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 18:14:24 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:14:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: <200712181636.32331.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Paetzel [mailto:josh at tcbug.org] > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:36 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Cc: Chuck Cole; Dan Rue; Mike Miller > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence > > > > > Seem both feasible and desirable to make some sort of > after-the-fact "rule > > checker" for Linux to self-enforce such a discipline and detect when > > something new is contrary. Might need some heuristics in any case, but > > that tool would preserve the option to take exception as well > as the check > > for anomalies. I think I'd prefer the rule checker since scope and > > completeness become verifiable and not just an "implied mystique" of the > > OS. > > > > > > Chuck > > > > Are you suggesting that it's easier to have a tool that tells you > things are > in the 'wrong place' than to just put them in the right place in > the first > place? That seems counter-intuitive to me, it's always less work > and more > robust to do it right the first time than to do it wrong and have a > second-pass try and fix it. One must believe himself sufficiently omniscient for that. I'm still too low on the learning and retention curve. > There is no 'implied mystique' in the FreeBSD ports tree. > LOCALBASE is set > to /usr/local, everything in the ports tree defaults to > installing under that > hierarchy. A port *can* override LOCALBASE, and in very rare > occassions it's > permitted....for instance, if the port installs a kernel module > of some sort > it has to be able to make it's way in to the root > filesystem....but the vast > majority of the 18,000+ apps in the ports tree simply do not put anything > outside of /usr/local and it manages to happen without having to somehow > clean up after the fact. I'm way too much of a newbie to have such clairvoyance and/or experience with this, and too much a skeptic to believe that human or other error can't creep in before, during, or after a mod. For example, I still prefer to have my hard drive do its own error detection and correction, and gave up doing integrity checks by hand several weeks ago :-) Which part of "verification" am I missing? :-) Chuck From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 18:19:32 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:19:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems Message-ID: It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several Linux distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of libraries and such). Why can't all package management tools from such distros be interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if there is any? Mike From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 18:32:32 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:32:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 PM > To: Anna Edwards > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > > > i type with a cell phone. i am native born to the usa. if it is bad, i > > dont have a smartphone. > > That explains it! Wow -- that's a lot of work. Maybe you can buy a > little keyboard for it! I have a smart-enough phone (Treo 600) > and I even > bought the external folding keyboard for it recently for only $60 (it has > a useable built-in keypad). It's a pretty amazing little thing, that > keyboard. I plan to use it when traveling. > > Best, > Mike I usta do math by rubbing two sticks together, but migrated to a digital computer (abacus) when that became the rage.... I got a nice IR-coupled folding keyboard real cheap off ebay. I think it's spec'd to work with more than just smartphones and PDAs. Mine is only IR coupled, but others connect by wire. I'm sure I'd quickly want to try typing with a railroad spike as stylus and mallet to drive it in if I had to depend on such a thing for my "typing". Many phones and services offer voice-to-text. Perhaps that would preserve the pocketable convenience and minimize the nuisance. Chuck From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 18:38:36 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:38:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chuck Cole wrote: > I'm sure I'd quickly want to try typing with a railroad spike as stylus > and mallet to drive it in if I had to depend on such a thing for my > "typing". Many phones and services offer voice-to-text. Perhaps that > would preserve the pocketable convenience and minimize the nuisance. Then you can write a perl program like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLqUf4cdwc Mike From josh at tcbug.org Tue Dec 18 18:53:33 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:53:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712181853.37281.josh@tcbug.org> On Tuesday 18 December 2007 06:14:24 pm Chuck Cole wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Josh Paetzel [mailto:josh at tcbug.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:36 PM > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Cc: Chuck Cole; Dan Rue; Mike Miller > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence > > > > > Seem both feasible and desirable to make some sort of > > > > after-the-fact "rule > > > > > checker" for Linux to self-enforce such a discipline and detect when > > > something new is contrary. Might need some heuristics in any case, but > > > that tool would preserve the option to take exception as well > > > > as the check > > > > > for anomalies. I think I'd prefer the rule checker since scope and > > > completeness become verifiable and not just an "implied mystique" of > > > the OS. > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > Are you suggesting that it's easier to have a tool that tells you > > things are > > in the 'wrong place' than to just put them in the right place in > > the first > > place? That seems counter-intuitive to me, it's always less work > > and more > > robust to do it right the first time than to do it wrong and have a > > second-pass try and fix it. > > One must believe himself sufficiently omniscient for that. I'm still too > low on the learning and retention curve. > > > There is no 'implied mystique' in the FreeBSD ports tree. > > LOCALBASE is set > > to /usr/local, everything in the ports tree defaults to > > installing under that > > hierarchy. A port *can* override LOCALBASE, and in very rare > > occassions it's > > permitted....for instance, if the port installs a kernel module > > of some sort > > it has to be able to make it's way in to the root > > filesystem....but the vast > > majority of the 18,000+ apps in the ports tree simply do not put anything > > outside of /usr/local and it manages to happen without having to somehow > > clean up after the fact. > > I'm way too much of a newbie to have such clairvoyance and/or experience > with this, and too much a skeptic to believe that human or other error > can't creep in before, during, or after a mod. > > For example, I still prefer to have my hard drive do its own error > detection and correction, and gave up doing integrity checks by hand > several weeks ago > > :-) > > Which part of "verification" am I missing? :-) > > > Chuck In the case of the FreeBSD ports tree the system is set up to use LOCALBASE unless specifically molested to do otherwise. I suppose someone "could" commit a port that has LOCALBASE overridden when it shouldn't be, but there's only a few dozen ports committers and they are generally on the lookout for stuff like that. I'd agree that if every single port had to be set up to do the right thing then there would be concern for breakage, but the framework does the right thing by default. The analogy of checking your hard drive in this case is more along the lines of 'creating a system to make sure my hard drive isn't writing to the floppy'....without fairly unusual intervention it's just really not possible. Another possibility is that someone could break the framework itself somehow, but so far in the 12 years I've been using and contributing to FreeBSD no one's broken the ports tree in a way that it leaked files out of LOCALBASE. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/f03585e4/attachment.pgp From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 18:54:48 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:54:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <288933.54873.qm@web33711.mail.mud.yahoo.com> if linus had gotten his way, we would be tcfug, twin cities freax user group! all it was changed by was an axedental directory renaming on the server. thats all it took Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Steve Cayford wrote: >> Mike Miller wrote: >>> [...] >>> I'm getting the impression that package installation in Linux can be >>> pretty haphazard. >> >> It used to be pretty haphazard. It seems like it's moving toward a >> pretty consistent standard with LSB and the Filesystem Hierarchy >> Standard. >> >> http://proton.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html > Thanks for mentioning LSB. I was going to ask about that. It seems > highly relevant to our current discussion. It must have been 5 years ago > that I first heard of it and since then I thought it was being adopted > widely. We also have POSIX and SUS. You'd think these things would > impose enough structure on the system to protect us from some of the > problems just described, but I guess not. > By the way, why doesn't LINUX stand for "LINUX Is Not UniX"? It should! > (I assume most of you know that GNU stands for "GNU's Not Unix" and PHP > stands for "PHP Hypertext Processor".) I hadn't thought of it before, or > heard it before, but I'm not surprised to see that I wasn't the first: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Linux/Archive1 > Linus would have been way cleverer if he had come up with the > abbreviation, I think, and let people notice the similarity with his name > instead of just saying that he had named it after himself. > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com Tue Dec 18 19:02:37 2007 From: samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com (Samir M. Nassar) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:02:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that > different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several Linux > distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of libraries and > such). Why can't all package management tools from such distros be > interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if there is any? This is a philosophical question and the answer is philosophical. The simple answer is that different distros have different reasons for being. A more complex answer would be that it is hard to make community distros like debian and gentoo have the same priorities as Fedora or Ubuntu or openSUSE. For one, you can't just pay a software engineer to make a package management tool that can work with all packages. You can, but your money won't be well-spent. -- Samir M. Nassar samir.nassar at steamedpenguin.com From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 19:16:20 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 17:16:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <925971.80690.qm@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> do you know of any that work with a razr v3r? Chuck Cole wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 PM >> To: Anna Edwards >> >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> >> > i type with a cell phone. i am native born to the usa. if it is bad, i >> > dont have a smartphone. >> >> That explains it! Wow -- that's a lot of work. Maybe you can buy a >> little keyboard for it! I have a smart-enough phone (Treo 600) >> and I even >> bought the external folding keyboard for it recently for only $60 (it has >> a useable built-in keypad). It's a pretty amazing little thing, that >> keyboard. I plan to use it when traveling. >> >> Best, >> Mike > I usta do math by rubbing two sticks together, but migrated to a digital > computer (abacus) when that became the rage.... > I got a nice IR-coupled folding keyboard real cheap off ebay. I think it's > spec'd to work with more than just smartphones and PDAs. Mine is only IR > coupled, but others connect by wire. > I'm sure I'd quickly want to try typing with a railroad spike as stylus and > mallet to drive it in if I had to depend on such a thing for my "typing". > Many phones and services offer voice-to-text. Perhaps that would preserve > the pocketable convenience and minimize the nuisance. > Chuck ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 19:24:26 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:24:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: > On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > >> It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that >> different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several >> Linux distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of >> libraries and such). Why can't all package management tools from such >> distros be interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if >> there is any? > > This is a philosophical question and the answer is philosophical. I doubt it. > The simple answer is that different distros have different reasons for > being. But are they compatible? > A more complex answer would be that it is hard to make community distros > like debian and gentoo have the same priorities as Fedora or Ubuntu or > openSUSE. For one, you can't just pay a software engineer to make a > package management tool that can work with all packages. You can, but > your money won't be well-spent. Why can't I use four different package systems on the same installation of one distro? The reason isn't philosophical -- there is either a technical reason why I can't do it, or I can do it. The distro might come with only one package management program, but they are all freely available so I ought to be able to compile them all and use them all, if I want to. Mike From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 19:54:29 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:54:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2007 5:15 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > ... > Can I compile in a way that creates a package, then install the package? That > would seem to provide the best of both worlds, perhaps at a little extra > cost in terms of effort during installation. Take a look at "checkinstall" (http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall). On the rare occasion when something's not already in the package repository of your distro of choice, you can usually do the following to install from source: $ ./configure $ make $ sudo checkinstall The last command builds a package (the default behavior issues a "make install" behind the scenes) and, if all went well, installs it. sm From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 20:14:45 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:14:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf forever In-Reply-To: <925971.80690.qm@web33713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Anna Edwards [mailto:anna2edw at yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 7:16 PM > To: cncole at earthlink.net > Cc: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu; tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: RE: [tclug-list] bribery-a case of cuerosity killed the wolf > forever > > > do you know of any that work with a razr v3r? Just "no info" plus negative interest in Razr. When the Razr came out I was interested in the ads I got that said it has GPS and stores music. I asked just what it would do if in the Boundary Waters away from towers and the answer was worse than "nothing" (after an ordeal to find someone who COULD answer). The GPS is only a tower-based solution, and there is no real GPS receiver in the phone: it's usless when in the Boundary waters and not great GPS otherwise. The music feature also was dependent upon tower services, but it also required a special memory card which had not been scheduled for production at the time of all those ads.... so music was "none here or there" unless and until the special memory chips exist. Things may be better now that a year has passed, but the ads were so deceitful I'd never consider a Razr and I look even closer at cell product specs. I use the older Samsung I-330 3G Palm-compatible smartphones which are a bit old, but do most stuff (including free and unlimited internet service) and can be bought or replaced from ebay for about $35. Chuck (often accused of being a curmudgeon) > Chuck Cole wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 4:59 PM > >> To: Anna Edwards > >> > >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > >> > >> > i type with a cell phone. i am native born to the usa. if it > is bad, i > >> > dont have a smartphone. > >> > >> That explains it! Wow -- that's a lot of work. Maybe you can buy a > >> little keyboard for it! I have a smart-enough phone (Treo 600) > >> and I even > >> bought the external folding keyboard for it recently for only > $60 (it has > >> a useable built-in keypad). It's a pretty amazing little thing, that > >> keyboard. I plan to use it when traveling. > >> > >> Best, > >> Mike > > I usta do math by rubbing two sticks together, but migrated to a digital > > computer (abacus) when that became the rage.... > > I got a nice IR-coupled folding keyboard real cheap off ebay. > I think it's > > spec'd to work with more than just smartphones and PDAs. Mine > is only IR > > coupled, but others connect by wire. > > I'm sure I'd quickly want to try typing with a railroad spike > as stylus and > > mallet to drive it in if I had to depend on such a thing for my > "typing". > > Many phones and services offer voice-to-text. Perhaps that > would preserve > > the pocketable convenience and minimize the nuisance. > > Chuck > From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Dec 18 20:17:34 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:17:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: <1198030654.17113.1227316631@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:24:26 -0600 (CST), "Mike Miller" said: > Why can't I use four different package systems on the same installation > of > one distro? The reason isn't philosophical -- there is either a > technical > reason why I can't do it, or I can do it. The distro might come with > only > one package management program, but they are all freely available so I > ought to be able to compile them all and use them all, if I want to. The reason is one of practicality and it's that you can only use a package management system that supports the package format you want to use. For practical reasons, you can't, to a large extend, use different package formats especially when you're dealing with package dependencies. The reason I say "practical" is because technically, you can use different package formats as song as you configure the software so that dependencies are satisfied, and, for scalability, invent another piece of software that can manage those dependencies based on the two different package formats. From samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com Tue Dec 18 20:17:44 2007 From: samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com (Samir M. Nassar) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:17:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: <200712182017.44559.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: > > On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > >> It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that > >> different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several > >> Linux distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of > >> libraries and such). Why can't all package management tools from such > >> distros be interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if > >> there is any? > > > > This is a philosophical question and the answer is philosophical. > > I doubt it. Doubt is good. :) It promotes free inquiry, also a matter of philosophy. :) > > The simple answer is that different distros have different reasons for > > being. > > But are they compatible? As it stands, no the systems are not compatible. > > A more complex answer would be that it is hard to make community distros > > like debian and gentoo have the same priorities as Fedora or Ubuntu or > > openSUSE. For one, you can't just pay a software engineer to make a > > package management tool that can work with all packages. You can, but > > your money won't be well-spent. > Why can't I use four different package systems on the same installation of > one distro? The reason isn't philosophical -- there is either a technical > reason why I can't do it, or I can do it. The distro might come with only > one package management program, but they are all freely available so I > ought to be able to compile them all and use them all, if I want to. Why? Well it isn't impossible, just a major pain in the ass. Let's take two scenarios: a source-based distro and a binary-based distro. As examples I'll use Gentoo and Debian respectively. You can install RPM on Gentoo. Insofar as that goes you can install any software on Gentoo, provided you can meet the dependencies. In gentoo you can even install binary packages. There are several ways to install binary packages. One way is to have a build-machine and secondary machines. The build machines syncs against the rsync servers, downloads the new software packages and builds binary packages. You can use these binary packages in your secondary machines. This turns your source-based Gentoo distro into a binary-based distro. As a consequence, the way you treat your secondary machines becomes much like you would treat them if they had Debian installed. So why can't we use deb or rpm to install these packages? For the most part because a gentoo system wouldn't know what you installed. A Debian system, binary based, can install custom software. Anyone, with a little bit of work, can create custom chroots to modify and create custom .deb binaries and then deploy them on her system. YOu can also install software from source. The trick with installing software from source is that you can't keep track of it using the regular debian tools. (Users who use a lot more Debian than I can chime in and tell me how wrong I am.) What you are getting at, I think, is why don't all these systems share an API so that whatever redhat chooses, or Ubuntu, or X-distro chooses for a package management, that they all keep track of the same stuff. Personally, I don't see why anyone would want to use rpm on debian, portage on openSUSE, or YAST on Slackware. -- Samir M. Nassar samir.nassar at steamedpenguin.com From anna2edw at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 20:32:04 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 18:32:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! Message-ID: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and volia! i plan to add another distro. it works because i thought of it! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From florin at iucha.net Tue Dec 18 20:30:16 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:30:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 06:19:32PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that > different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several Linux > distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of libraries and > such). Why can't all package management tools from such distros be > interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if there is any? And furthermore, why aren't all programs written in the same programming language? After all, a stamp, an eraser and an infinite tape is all that one needs. florin PS: LSB compliance requires that the system can install packages that are in RPM v3 format. -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/67fec540/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 20:55:04 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:55:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] FreeBSD coherence In-Reply-To: References: <681648.95152.qm@web33703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20071218215247.GP92078@therub.org> <200712181629.19008.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Sam Martin wrote: > On Dec 18, 2007 5:15 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >> ... >> Can I compile in a way that creates a package, then install the package? That >> would seem to provide the best of both worlds, perhaps at a little extra >> cost in terms of effort during installation. > > Take a look at "checkinstall" > (http://www.asic-linux.com.mx/~izto/checkinstall). On the rare > occasion when something's not already in the package repository of > your distro of choice, you can usually do the following to install > from source: > > $ ./configure > $ make > $ sudo checkinstall > > The last command builds a package (the default behavior issues a "make > install" behind the scenes) and, if all went well, installs it. That's very cool! But even if a program is available as a package, won't I sometimes want to compile it with options that weren't used when the package was created? If so, it sounds like checkinstall could be a big help to me. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:11:27 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:11:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 06:19:32PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> It seems to me that there are several package management tools and that >> different Linux distros use different tools. I assume that several >> Linux distros are in compliance with the LSB (for locations of >> libraries and such). Why can't all package management tools from such >> distros be interchangeable? What is the source of incompatibility, if >> there is any? > > And furthermore, why aren't all programs written in the same programming > language? After all, a stamp, an eraser and an infinite tape is all > that one needs. > > florin > > PS: LSB compliance requires that the system can install packages that > are in RPM v3 format. I thought I'd read something about that (LSB uses RPM) and so made the comment about "libraries and such." The point I'm trying to make is that the different distros aren't all that different. If they have the same kernels and the same libraries in the same locations, why does it matter which one you are using? Well, I take it that the other big difference is in package management, in terms of the user interface and software program for package management, in terms of the package file format and terms of which packages are available and how up-to-date they are. Why would I want to run an Ubuntu package on a Red Hat machine? Because the Ubuntu package is a more recent version or installs to a different folder or was compiled with different options, or maybe the package is available for Ubuntu and doesn't even exist for Red Hat. Aren't these real possibilities? I get what people are saying about dependencies. If I remove a package, it might remove the dependencies I installed for that package unless they are needed by another package. Is that so? If so, and I installed the other package using a different installer, the dependency might be missed. So it could mess me up if I try to use two package managers at once. On the other hand, if I can remove a package without removing dependencies, then maybe I wouldn't have a problem. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:15:07 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:15:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > And furthermore, why aren't all programs written in the same programming > language? After all, a stamp, an eraser and an infinite tape is all > that one needs. I always carry an infinite tape in my back pocket, but I had to cut it in half to make it fit. Mike From trnja001 at umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:12:34 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (trnja001 at umn.edu) Date: 18 Dec 2007 21:12:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What made you think that this wouldn't work? (apart from that it's pointless) On Dec 18 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a > shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on > feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. > for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got > cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and > volia! i plan to add another distro. it works because i thought of it! > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > >_______________________________________________ >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >tclug-list at mn-linux.org >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:18:05 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:18:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <1198030654.17113.1227316631@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> <1198030654.17113.1227316631@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:24:26 -0600 (CST), "Mike Miller" > said: > >> Why can't I use four different package systems on the same installation >> of one distro? The reason isn't philosophical -- there is either a >> technical reason why I can't do it, or I can do it. The distro might >> come with only one package management program, but they are all freely >> available so I ought to be able to compile them all and use them all, >> if I want to. > > > The reason is one of practicality and it's that you can only use a > package management system that supports the package format you want to > use. > > For practical reasons, you can't, to a large extend, use different > package formats especially when you're dealing with package > dependencies. > > The reason I say "practical" is because technically, you can use > different package formats as song as you configure the software so that > dependencies are satisfied, and, for scalability, invent another piece > of software that can manage those dependencies based on the two > different package formats. I'm guessing that it would be possible to write a package management program would allow you to use three or four standard package formats and manage all the dependencies, etc. Mike From brockn at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 21:21:12 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:21:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: <741dcbb80712181921y618c0808y41335be3733728b8@mail.gmail.com> "If they have the same kernels and the same libraries in the same locations, why does it matter which one you are using?" They don't have the same kernels and same libraries. Brock From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:22:51 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:22:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <200712182017.44559.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> <200712182017.44559.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: > So why can't we use deb or rpm to install these packages? For the most > part because a gentoo system wouldn't know what you installed. I read your whole message but I just have a question about the paragraph above. What does it mean for Gentoo to "know" what is installed? I'm not picking on your choice of wording, I'm trying to understand where in the system that information is recorded and used. I can direct my path through the right directories (e.g., /usr/local/bin) and I should find everything, even on Gentoo -- in that sense I know what is there. Is the problem you refer to that Gentoo's own installer system wouldn't know that dependencies are already taken care of and it would force me to reinstall things that are alaredy installed because it doesn't see them? Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:25:09 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:25:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a > shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on > feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. > for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got > cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and > volia! i plan to add another distro. Hmmm... That's what I was thinking it would be like, but are you using a ton of extra disk space to maintain all distros in their own partitions? > it works because i thought of it! It worked because you did it. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Dec 18 21:28:37 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:28:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80712181921y618c0808y41335be3733728b8@mail.gmail.com> References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> <741dcbb80712181921y618c0808y41335be3733728b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Brock Noland wrote: > "If they have the same kernels and the same libraries in the same > locations, why does it matter which one you are using?" > > They don't have the same kernels and same libraries. Oh. Good answer. To what degree do the kernels differ? I thought a Linux team made the kernel and the distros all used the same kernel but perhaps different versions. Do the different kernels prevent binaries from one distro from functioning properly on another distro? Regarding libraries: I thought the point of LSB was mostly to get the libraries to be the same, or at least fully compatible. What's going on with that? Do differences in libraries cause binaries from one distro from working on another distro. Best, Mike From samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com Tue Dec 18 21:38:16 2007 From: samir.nassar+tclug at steamedpenguin.com (Samir M. Nassar) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:38:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <200712182017.44559.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: <200712182138.16809.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> On Tuesday 18 December 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: > > So why can't we use deb or rpm to install these packages? For the most > > part because a gentoo system wouldn't know what you installed. > > I read your whole message but I just have a question about the paragraph > above. What does it mean for Gentoo to "know" what is installed? I'm not > picking on your choice of wording, I'm trying to understand where in the > system that information is recorded and used. I can direct my path > through the right directories (e.g., /usr/local/bin) and I should find > everything, even on Gentoo -- in that sense I know what is there. > Is the problem you refer to that Gentoo's own installer system wouldn't > know that dependencies are already taken care of and it would force me to > reinstall things that are alaredy installed because it doesn't see them? All package management systems keep track of what is installed and what isn't to some degree. They also take care of dependency resolving. This puts the manage in package management. Each package management system has a place where it keeps track of installed packages. The format of this database and the location differs from package management system to package management system. Reinstalling an already installed dependency is problematic if done improperly. So if you installed something critical to your toolchain (glibc, gcc, binutils) with one package management system and then installed other versions you might create a situation that corrupts how your applications compile and how they run. This problem is not confined to Gentoo but will occur in almost any system. One can maintain several copies of software on their system, but more care needs to be taken to isolate them so that conflicts don't happen. Some package management systems will install parallel copies of certain software. Each package management system has its own method of accomplishing that goal. -- Samir M. Nassar samir.nassar at steamedpenguin.com From thecubic at thecubic.net Tue Dec 18 22:02:04 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:02:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200712182202.05185.thecubic@thecubic.net> This has always worked - from the most formal of distributions to Linux From Scratch. If the libraries are available and similar enough, it works fine. Major software packages (such as Matlab) go the extra mile and ship their own libraries with their product so that it can be used on practically any Linux system. You could go as far as shipping your own libc with your product if you wanted. -Dave On Tuesday 18 December 2007 08:32:04 pm Anna Edwards wrote: > I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a > shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on > feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. > for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got > cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and > volia! i plan to add another distro. it works because i thought of it! > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ >_________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From thecubic at thecubic.net Tue Dec 18 22:04:03 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:04:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <741dcbb80712181921y618c0808y41335be3733728b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200712182204.03447.thecubic@thecubic.net> The difference in the kernel doesn't really matter - just the userspace libraries. I've been in the (non-enviable) position of supporting the same binary distribution on 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6 kernels (only the kernel changed). LSB only addresses standard libraries - if your Ubuntu /usr/bin/foo relies on /usr/lib/libbar.so.6, and another distro you attempt to run the program on only has /usr/lib/libbar.so.5 (or no libbar), it won't work. Given that there are so many dependencies and they change very quickly, it's more luck (or trial and error) that it works. -Dave On Tuesday 18 December 2007 09:28:37 pm Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Brock Noland wrote: > > "If they have the same kernels and the same libraries in the same > > locations, why does it matter which one you are using?" > > > > They don't have the same kernels and same libraries. > > Oh. Good answer. To what degree do the kernels differ? I thought a > Linux team made the kernel and the distros all used the same kernel but > perhaps different versions. Do the different kernels prevent binaries > from one distro from functioning properly on another distro? > > Regarding libraries: I thought the point of LSB was mostly to get the > libraries to be the same, or at least fully compatible. What's going on > with that? Do differences in libraries cause binaries from one distro > from working on another distro. > > Best, > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From florin at iucha.net Tue Dec 18 22:19:33 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:19:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> <741dcbb80712181921y618c0808y41335be3733728b8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071219041933.GJ22193@iucha.net> On Tue, Dec 18, 2007 at 09:28:37PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Brock Noland wrote: > > They don't have the same kernels and same libraries. > > Oh. Good answer. To what degree do the kernels differ? A lot. It's gotten better now, but the distribution still add patches. Check for yourself: fetch the source rpms, explode them and see what patches are included, read the changelog to see why, etc. > I thought a > Linux team made the kernel and the distros all used the same kernel but > perhaps different versions. Do the different kernels prevent binaries > from one distro from functioning properly on another distro? May or may not, depending on what's patched. Support for an experimental network protocol, or some piece of hardware. > Regarding libraries: I thought the point of LSB was mostly to get the > libraries to be the same, or at least fully compatible. What's going on > with that? The LSB requires a small number of libraries [1]: * libc * libm * libgcc_s * libdl * librt * libcrypt * libpam while my Ubuntu desktop has: $ find /usr/lib -type f -name \*so\* | wc -l 3397 $ find /lib -type f -name \*so\* | wc -l 295 and my Centos server has: $ find /usr/lib -name \*so\* -type f | wc -l 774 $ find /lib -name \*so\* -type f | wc -l 284 and my Solaris server has: $ find /usr/lib -name \*so\* -type f | wc -l 469 $ find /lib -name \*so\* -type f | wc -l 148 And $DEITY only knows what --configure options have been passed to those libraries when built. There are hundreds of millions of lines of [free] code out there, and tens of millions are selected and configured for a given distribution. It's similar to the DNA -> cell -> organism. The base [2] is the same, but wiggle the sequence [3] a bit and you get many things. Some which mate with each other, some which eat each other. > Do differences in libraries cause binaries from one distro > from working on another distro. Yes, they do. For instance the Sun C++ compiler works on Ubuntu but not on RedHat because there is a quirk in the GNU linker and how it interacts with the name mangling. Or try running an old binary application like Oracle on a newer distribution: you'll need the 'compat' libraries. Cheers, florin 1: http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/LSB_3.1.0/LSB-Core-generic/LSB-Core-generic/baselib.html 2,3: puns always intended -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071218/df1fde3f/attachment-0001.pgp From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 23:03:13 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:03:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: <200712182202.05185.thecubic@thecubic.net> References: <829337.19300.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200712182202.05185.thecubic@thecubic.net> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2007 10:02 PM, Dave Carlson wrote: > This has always worked - from the most formal of distributions to Linux From > Scratch. If the libraries are available and similar enough, it works fine. Libraries are the key here. Most Linux binary programs are dynamic binaries and require various libraries to be available on your system. This makes the compiled binary small. If this sounds familiar, Windows + DLL. :) You can run into library issues on Linux the same as you would on Windows, but you usually don't as the source is out there and it's usually easy to build source with the latest versions of the library, assuming said library hasn't evolved to the point where the various calls to the library have changed completely, which in truth can, does, and will happen in the OSS world. Commercial software on Linux is often statically linked so that the resulting binary doesn't depend on the libraries that it was compiled against. This produces a bigger binary, but odds of the binary working usually go up. As was mentioned, some software includes the versions of the libraries it with the software. If you were to try running your Fedora GNOME binaries under a Ubuntu server install, odds are it wouldn't work unless you started installing dependencies for that binary on Ubuntu, and if you started with a bare minimum Ubuntu server install you would be installing a lot of packages... :) -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Dec 18 23:50:24 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:50:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <200712181902.37168.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> <1198030654.17113.1227316631@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1198043424.15545.1227340921@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:18:05 -0600 (CST), "Mike Miller" said: > > I'm guessing that it would be possible to write a package management > program would allow you to use three or four standard package formats and > manage all the dependencies, etc. > > Mike Yes, but just because something's possible doesn't mean it's useful. There's no reason you'd want to do this since you'd have to roll your own packages in each format to satisfy cross format dependencies and configuration compatibility. At that point, you might as well just stick to one package format. From tclug at lizakowski.com Wed Dec 19 01:11:49 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:11:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: <200712190111.49386.tclug@lizakowski.com> > > And furthermore, why aren't all programs written in the same programming > > language? After all, a stamp, an eraser and an infinite tape is all > > that one needs. > > I always carry an infinite tape in my back pocket, but I had to cut it in > half to make it fit. Just be careful what programs you run on your turing machine. Folding at home (http://folding.stanford.edu/) can quickly wrinkle the infinite tape. Jeremy From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 19 01:23:55 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:23:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <200712182138.16809.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> References: <200712182017.44559.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> <200712182138.16809.samir.nassar+tclug@steamedpenguin.com> Message-ID: Nice message. Thanks. Mike On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: > All package management systems keep track of what is installed and what > isn't to some degree. They also take care of dependency resolving. This > puts the manage in package management. > > Each package management system has a place where it keeps track of > installed packages. The format of this database and the location differs > from package management system to package management system. > > Reinstalling an already installed dependency is problematic if done > improperly. So if you installed something critical to your toolchain > (glibc, gcc, binutils) with one package management system and then > installed other versions you might create a situation that corrupts how > your applications compile and how they run. > > This problem is not confined to Gentoo but will occur in almost any > system. > > One can maintain several copies of software on their system, but more > care needs to be taken to isolate them so that conflicts don't happen. > Some package management systems will install parallel copies of certain > software. Each package management system has its own method of > accomplishing that goal. > > -- > Samir M. Nassar > samir.nassar at steamedpenguin.com From anna2edw at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 07:32:01 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:32:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <830849.16182.qm@web33712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> well linux hates me sometimes. trnja001 at umn.edu wrote: > What made you think that this wouldn't work? (apart from that it's > pointless) > On Dec 18 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a >> shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on >> feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. >> for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got >> cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and >> volia! i plan to add another distro. it works because i thought of it! >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. >> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping >> >>_______________________________________________ >>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From anna2edw at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 07:37:49 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:37:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <378524.56656.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> he means that it wouldnt add the program to **sh automatically Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: >> So why can't we use deb or rpm to install these packages? For the most >> part because a gentoo system wouldn't know what you installed. > I read your whole message but I just have a question about the paragraph > above. What does it mean for Gentoo to "know" what is installed? I'm not > picking on your choice of wording, I'm trying to understand where in the > system that information is recorded and used. I can direct my path > through the right directories (e.g., /usr/local/bin) and I should find > everything, even on Gentoo -- in that sense I know what is there. > Is the problem you refer to that Gentoo's own installer system wouldn't > know that dependencies are already taken care of and it would force me to > reinstall things that are alaredy installed because it doesn't see them? > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From anna2edw at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 07:44:09 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 05:44:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] red hat wont like this trick to debian! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <86981.66781.qm@web33706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> no. i deleted the duplicates like firefox on both but kept ubuntus firefox. ubuntu is the third distro, open solaris the 4th, freebsd the fifth and open suse the sixth Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: >> I was just looking around my dual boot feddora-ubuntu computer, with a >> shared swap and home folder, and realized that ubuntu stuff worked on >> feddora! you just need to know were the stuff is and how to edit menus. >> for me, i uninstalled the duplicates that were on both systems. and got >> cedega subscribtion, installed it on feddora, linked it on ubuntu, and >> volia! i plan to add another distro. > Hmmm... That's what I was thinking it would be like, but are you using a > ton of extra disk space to maintain all distros in their own partitions? >> it works because i thought of it! > It worked because you did it. > Mike ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 09:01:25 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:01:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2007 9:11 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > Why would I want to run an Ubuntu package on a Red Hat machine? Because > the Ubuntu package is a more recent version or installs to a different > folder or was compiled with different options, or maybe the package is > available for Ubuntu and doesn't even exist for Red Hat. Aren't these > real possibilities? > Yup. Take a look at "alien" (http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/alien), which converts packages between different formats (e.g., deb -> rpm). I'd advise a fair amount of caution, but it works reasonably well if you're in a pinch. sm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 19 09:02:20 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:02:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: <378524.56656.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <378524.56656.qm@web33702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Anna Edwards wrote: > he means that it wouldnt add the program to **sh automatically Maybe I should wait for Samir to answer that because I don't understand you. I don't know what "**sh" is. Is that shorthand for the shell? And if so, do you mean that it is automatically added to the path somehow? Mike > Mike Miller wrote: > >> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Samir M. Nassar wrote: >> >>> So why can't we use deb or rpm to install these packages? For the most >>> part because a gentoo system wouldn't know what you installed. >> >> I read your whole message but I just have a question about the >> paragraph above. What does it mean for Gentoo to "know" what is >> installed? I'm not picking on your choice of wording, I'm trying to >> understand where in the system that information is recorded and used. >> I can direct my path through the right directories (e.g., >> /usr/local/bin) and I should find everything, even on Gentoo -- in that >> sense I know what is there. Is the problem you refer to that Gentoo's >> own installer system wouldn't know that dependencies are already taken >> care of and it would force me to reinstall things that are alaredy >> installed because it doesn't see them? >> >> Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Dec 19 09:37:01 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:37:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] package management on Linux systems In-Reply-To: References: <20071219023016.GH22193@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Dec 2007, Sam Martin wrote: > On Dec 18, 2007 9:11 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >> >> Why would I want to run an Ubuntu package on a Red Hat machine? Because >> the Ubuntu package is a more recent version or installs to a different >> folder or was compiled with different options, or maybe the package is >> available for Ubuntu and doesn't even exist for Red Hat. Aren't these >> real possibilities? > > Yup. Take a look at "alien" (http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/alien), > which converts packages between different formats (e.g., deb -> rpm). > I'd advise a fair amount of caution, but it works reasonably well if > you're in a pinch. Interesting. I'll definitely try to avoid it, but we'll see what happens. Mike From teddmaull at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 10:13:42 2007 From: teddmaull at yahoo.com (Ted Maul) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] nutch Message-ID: <724884.25794.qm@web57605.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Does anyone here have any experience with running nutch on clusters? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From troythetechguy at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 13:36:50 2007 From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:36:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics Message-ID: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> I'm running Ubuntu 7.10 on a HP Pavilion ze4125 laptop (AMD Athlon XP 1600+ [1.4Ghz] with 1 gig of RAM. However, I've experienced the issues described below with other versions of Ubuntu, and other distributions. Current symptoms: Mouse will jerk when moving - moves fine for awhile, then all of a sudden quickly stops for a brief second. CPU usage showing 100% spikes frequently, and I'm only running Top in Terminal, Firefox, and System Monitor CPU temperature ranges from 40c-60c. Is this normal? Fan on laptop running 99% of the time. Overall slow response. I originally thought I may have a HDD issue, but numerous diagnostic utilities state HDD is fine. I now wonder if my CPU is the culprit. I searched the repositories for a diagnostic utility, but did not see any. Can anyone recommend a diagnostic utility for Linux? Any other ideas as what might be the issue? Here is what the first few lines in Top show top - 13:35:25 up 1:21, 3 users, load average: 0.44, 0.49, 0.78 Tasks: 102 total, 5 running, 97 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie Cpu(s): 31.6%us, 5.3%sy, 0.0%ni, 63.2%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.0%st Mem: 1002092k total, 526172k used, 475920k free, 16712k buffers Swap: 489972k total, 0k used, 489972k free, 310824k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6592 troy 15 0 17888 10m 7432 R 21.2 1.0 0:02.72metacity 6525 root 16 0 105m 19m 7548 R 15.9 2.0 0:33.10Xorg 6783 troy 15 0 210m 70m 22m R 5.3 7.2 2:46.20firefox-bin 1 root 18 0 2952 1856 532 S 0.0 0.2 0:01.30init Thanks, Troy -- Website of the week: http://www.ubuntu.com/ The Free Alternative to M$ Office: http://www.openoffice.org My Blog: http://troythetechguy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071219/7be88988/attachment.htm From jwo at umn.edu Wed Dec 19 14:02:28 2007 From: jwo at umn.edu (Jonathan Osborne) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:02:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476978D4.4040109@umn.edu> The first thing you note -- the mouse pausing for a second -- also happened to me on Ubuntu. I turned off one of the services...I can't remember which, but I think it was CPU Scaling (or something similar). It immediately fixed the problem. Jonathan Osborne jwo at umn.edu Troy wrote on 12/19/2007 13.36 > I'm running Ubuntu 7.10 on a HP Pavilion ze4125 laptop (AMD Athlon XP > 1600+ [1.4Ghz] with 1 gig of RAM. However, I've experienced the issues > described below with other versions of Ubuntu, and other distributions. > > Current symptoms: > Mouse will jerk when moving - moves fine for awhile, then all of a > sudden quickly stops for a brief second. > CPU usage showing 100% spikes frequently, and I'm only running Top in > Terminal, Firefox, and System Monitor > CPU temperature ranges from 40c-60c. Is this normal? > Fan on laptop running 99% of the time. > Overall slow response. From anna2edw at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 16:18:12 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:18:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] mailing list of mailing lists Message-ID: <47434.17412.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i just got a good idea. what if there was a mailing list that was subscribed to many separate mailing lists that tune to a similar mailing list? in theory it sounds good, would save server power, and link thousands of people around the country! what do you think? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From johntrammell at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 16:44:33 2007 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John J. Trammell) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:44:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mailing list of mailing lists In-Reply-To: <47434.17412.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <47434.17412.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0712191444k320cc694mdb9e5f63ff2cc786@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 19, 2007 4:18 PM, Anna Edwards wrote: > i just got a good idea. what if there was a mailing list that was subscribed > to many separate mailing lists that tune to a similar mailing list? in theory > it sounds good, would save server power, and link thousands of people around > the country! what do you think? UNSUBSCRIBE (that's a joke, for the humor-impaired) From canito at dalan.us Wed Dec 19 16:59:06 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:59:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mailing list of mailing lists In-Reply-To: <47434.17412.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <47434.17412.qm@web33707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071219165906.0fkyqq1ao8w0swog@mail.dalan.us> I don't want to step on Mike Miller's territory (lol). But I suppose you could lead the way here!?!?! I mean, I woke with a great idea myself, maybe if I mention it here some investment guru will take me up on my theory, well we should have an open community (like craigslist.com and angieslist.com)for avid, students, educational and professionals alike. We would have our web page daveslist.com (minneapolis.daveslist.com, sanfran.daveslist.com) exchanging free literature. Sorta like google's book repository but only this would be member driven exchanging real books? How so do you ask? Well for a minimal fee, we could send via postal service a small quantity of envelopes and therefore people through out the US of A could have any particular book they want or need! I know it be big and a great way to save college students a bunch of money on the highway robbery priced college books! Sorry, I kinda got off subject. I really don't think making a google like repository for mailing lists would be a priority for someone like me, especially since they're so so so many of them, not including mailing lists with sensitive topics, its just not worth the pain, IMO! And I mean, who is going to host and pay for the bandwith? Unless, someone is doing graduate work for some rich University...... Sorry, I just don't see it happening. But, hey, if you like my idea let me know. I mean, maybe we won't become google-billionaires but its a start! David Quoting Anna Edwards : > i just got a good idea. what if there was a mailing list that was > subscribed to many separate mailing lists that tune to a similar > mailing list? in theory it sounds good, would save server power, and > link thousands of people around the country! what do you think? > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From dean at ripperd.com Wed Dec 19 18:21:54 2007 From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean E) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:21:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> What video driver is Xorg using? If you are using VESA or some other generic driver you will see that happen. Troy wrote: > I'm running Ubuntu 7.10 on a HP Pavilion ze4125 laptop (AMD Athlon XP > 1600+ [1.4Ghz] with 1 gig of RAM. However, I've experienced the issues > described below with other versions of Ubuntu, and other distributions. > > Current symptoms: > Mouse will jerk when moving - moves fine for awhile, then all of a > sudden quickly stops for a brief second. > CPU usage showing 100% spikes frequently, and I'm only running Top in > Terminal, Firefox, and System Monitor > CPU temperature ranges from 40c-60c. Is this normal? > Fan on laptop running 99% of the time. > Overall slow response. > > I originally thought I may have a HDD issue, but numerous diagnostic > utilities state HDD is fine. I now wonder if my CPU is the culprit. I > searched the repositories for a diagnostic utility, but did not see > any. Can anyone recommend a diagnostic utility for Linux? Any other > ideas as what might be the issue? > > Here is what the first few lines in Top show > > top - 13:35:25 up 1:21, 3 users, load average: 0.44, 0.49, 0.78 > Tasks: 102 total, 5 running, 97 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie > Cpu(s): 31.6%us, 5.3%sy , 0.0%ni, 63.2%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, > 0.0%st > Mem: 1002092k total, 526172k used, 475920k free, 16712k buffers > Swap: 489972k total, 0k used, 489972k free, 310824k cached > > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ > COMMAND > 6592 troy 15 0 17888 10m 7432 R 21.2 1.0 0:02.72 > metacity > 6525 root 16 0 105m 19m 7548 R 15.9 2.0 0:33.10 > Xorg > 6783 troy 15 0 210m 70m 22m R 5.3 7.2 2:46.20 > firefox-bin > 1 root 18 0 2952 1856 532 S 0.0 0.2 0:01.30 > init > > > > Thanks, > > Troy > > -- > Website of the week: > http://www.ubuntu.com/ > > The Free Alternative to M$ Office: > http://www.openoffice.org > > My Blog: > http://troythetechguy.blogspot.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From anna2edw at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 21:42:05 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:42:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] mailing list of mailing lists In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0712191444k320cc694mdb9e5f63ff2cc786@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <146441.58134.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> and i will subscribe everyone in the country without an unsubscribe option. jk John J. Trammell wrote: > On Dec 19, 2007 4:18 PM, Anna Edwards wrote: >> i just got a good idea. what if there was a mailing list that was subscribed >> to many separate mailing lists that tune to a similar mailing list? in theory >> it sounds good, would save server power, and link thousands of people around >> the country! what do you think? > UNSUBSCRIBE > (that's a joke, for the humor-impaired) > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From troythetechguy at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 07:26:51 2007 From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:26:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> Message-ID: <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for all the tips. I tried the first one, "vmstat 1", and here is the output I received when opening Firefox: procs -----------memory---------- ---swap-- -----io---- -system-- ----cpu---- r b swpd free buff cache si so bi bo in cs us sy id wa 1 0 0 534348 57332 240636 0 0 0 0 599 332 21 5 74 0 0 1 0 532588 57348 241748 0 0 1156 0 652 2873 24 13 0 63 0 1 0 531216 57376 242264 0 0 512 0 406 287 17 4 0 79 0 1 0 531096 57384 242360 0 0 108 0 439 221 14 3 0 83 0 1 0 530852 57384 242472 0 0 112 0 146 222 14 5 0 81 0 1 0 530792 57384 242572 0 0 100 0 965 774 15 7 0 78 0 3 0 530672 57392 242700 0 0 128 292 615 712 22 5 0 73 0 3 0 530492 57400 242828 0 0 128 8 614 775 20 7 0 73 2 1 0 530020 57408 243180 0 0 368 0 682 776 22 6 0 72 1 1 0 530008 57408 243188 0 0 0 0 600 704 23 4 0 73 0 1 0 529972 57408 243268 0 0 88 0 644 732 20 9 0 71 0 1 0 529364 57424 243892 0 0 640 0 628 754 21 6 0 73 0 1 0 528764 57428 244456 0 0 544 0 632 745 23 6 0 71 1 2 0 528740 57444 244468 0 0 28 104 560 504 16 6 0 78 procs -----------memory---------- ---swap-- -----io---- -system-- ----cpu---- r b swpd free buff cache si so bi bo in cs us sy id wa 1 1 0 526984 57468 245708 0 0 1264 0 695 657 22 6 0 72 0 1 0 524812 57472 247036 0 0 1356 0 477 407 20 4 0 76 3 1 0 524068 57484 247784 0 0 720 0 181 364 17 7 0 76 0 2 0 518848 57524 252132 0 0 4236 0 218 475 21 6 0 73 0 2 0 517164 57552 252852 0 0 728 248 225 341 19 4 0 77 0 1 0 516796 57560 252984 0 0 120 232 128 166 16 5 0 79 0 1 0 515772 57564 253888 0 0 916 0 173 186 17 3 0 80 0 1 0 514500 57576 254816 0 0 932 0 162 230 22 4 0 74 0 1 0 512608 57580 255704 0 0 920 0 148 318 25 4 0 71 0 1 0 512500 57580 255784 0 0 84 0 91 113 12 5 0 83 0 1 0 511524 57596 256404 0 0 612 56 181 210 19 6 0 75 0 1 0 508384 57600 257776 0 0 1352 0 266 496 34 8 0 58 0 2 0 505548 57608 259220 0 0 1456 0 211 286 27 5 0 68 1 0 0 504524 57620 260092 0 0 904 0 170 265 28 5 0 67 0 1 0 502496 57624 260340 0 0 216 0 151 431 24 6 0 70 0 2 0 502364 57632 260440 0 0 92 172 91 110 12 5 0 83 0 1 0 502196 57640 260660 0 0 220 20 165 180 16 4 0 80 0 1 0 501584 57640 260828 0 0 104 0 161 293 31 5 0 64 0 1 0 500464 57656 261308 0 0 196 0 552 2951 54 14 0 32 0 1 0 500316 57656 261480 0 0 184 0 572 559 14 5 0 81 1 0 0 497348 57660 261736 0 0 260 0 652 1228 29 8 0 63 procs -----------memory---------- ---swap-- -----io---- -system-- ----cpu---- r b swpd free buff cache si so bi bo in cs us sy id wa 1 2 0 498036 57684 261928 0 0 160 252 794 1374 54 14 0 32 3 0 0 494880 57704 262380 0 0 424 88 723 1020 66 8 0 26 1 0 0 494704 57708 262444 0 0 68 0 720 983 77 8 9 6 1 0 0 491592 57712 262740 0 0 332 0 848 1006 79 9 0 12 1 0 0 490408 57724 263012 0 0 16 0 813 932 80 8 4 8 2 0 0 489976 57724 263016 0 0 4 0 912 794 90 8 0 2 1 0 0 489408 57744 263148 0 0 24 380 746 658 88 7 0 5 3 0 0 488384 57744 263156 0 0 4 0 739 766 72 11 15 2 0 0 0 488012 57744 263168 0 0 4 0 628 551 57 7 27 9 0 0 0 488012 57744 263168 0 0 0 0 547 320 7 6 87 0 0 0 0 488012 57744 263168 0 0 0 0 590 337 17 4 79 0 0 0 0 487888 57752 263168 0 0 0 200 588 455 17 5 77 1 I believe the high waiting time (as indicated by the last column on the right) is the result of slow disk performance, not a slow CPU. As previously stated, I tried some disk utilities on the "Ultimate Boot CD", and no issues were found with the HDD. However, does anyone have a different disk utility program they recommend? Some other issues I noticed are: 1. extremely slow boot - 5 minutes! 2. the welcome music was interrupted (jerky) when logging in. Is there anyway to determine if a new HDD would make a difference? Being the laptop is already 5-6 years old, if the issue is something other than the HDD, I prefer to just purchase a new laptop. Thanks again for the help! Troy > > Troy wrote: > > I'm running Ubuntu 7.10 on a HP Pavilion ze4125 laptop (AMD Athlon XP > > 1600+ [1.4Ghz] with 1 gig of RAM. However, I've experienced the issues > > described below with other versions of Ubuntu, and other distributions. > > > > Current symptoms: > > Mouse will jerk when moving - moves fine for awhile, then all of a > > sudden quickly stops for a brief second. > > CPU usage showing 100% spikes frequently, and I'm only running Top in > > Terminal, Firefox, and System Monitor > > CPU temperature ranges from 40c-60c. Is this normal? > > Fan on laptop running 99% of the time. > > Overall slow response. > > > > I originally thought I may have a HDD issue, but numerous diagnostic > > utilities state HDD is fine. I now wonder if my CPU is the culprit. I > > searched the repositories for a diagnostic utility, but did not see > > any. Can anyone recommend a diagnostic utility for Linux? Any other > > ideas as what might be the issue? > > > > Here is what the first few lines in Top show > > > > top - 13:35:25 up 1:21, 3 users, load average: 0.44, 0.49, 0.78 > > Tasks: 102 total, 5 running, 97 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie > > Cpu(s): 31.6%us, 5.3%sy , 0.0%ni, 63.2%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, > > 0.0%st > > Mem: 1002092k total, 526172k used, 475920k free, 16712k buffers > > Swap: 489972k total, 0k used, 489972k free, 310824k cached > > > > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ > > COMMAND > > 6592 troy 15 0 17888 10m 7432 R 21.2 1.0 0:02.72 > > metacity > > 6525 root 16 0 105m 19m 7548 R 15.9 2.0 0:33.10 > > Xorg > > 6783 troy 15 0 210m 70m 22m R 5.3 7.2 2:46.20 > > firefox-bin > > 1 root 18 0 2952 1856 532 S 0.0 0.2 0:01.30 > > init > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Troy > > > > -- > > Website of the week: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/ > > > > The Free Alternative to M$ Office: > > http://www.openoffice.org > > > > My Blog: > > http://troythetechguy.blogspot.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Website of the week: http://www.ubuntu.com/ The Free Alternative to M$ Office: http://www.openoffice.org My Blog: http://troythetechguy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/eff967a7/attachment-0001.htm From florin at iucha.net Thu Dec 20 09:18:16 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:18:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071220151816.GK3695@iucha.net> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 07:26:51AM -0600, Troy wrote: > I believe the high waiting time (as indicated by the last column on the > right) is the result of slow disk performance, not a slow CPU. Your analysis is correct. > As > previously stated, I tried some disk utilities on the "Ultimate Boot CD", > and no issues were found with the HDD. However, does anyone have a > different disk utility program they recommend? What does 'hdparm /dev/hda' say? Does it say anything about DMA and umaskirq? Try 'hdparm -d1 -u1 -c1 -m8 /dev/hda' and see if it improves things. You can run 'hdparm -t /dev/hda' before and after running hdparm as suggested above. > Some other issues I noticed are: > 1. extremely slow boot - 5 minutes! Something is seriously wrong here. Check the kernel log for io errors (using 'dmesg'). You'll know'em when you see'em. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/21ab99e8/attachment.pgp From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Dec 20 10:21:22 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:21:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Book exchange sites Message-ID: <32016.1198167682@skuld.wookimus.net> Dave, I hate to step on your idea, but it's already been done in two different formats. The first is called BookMooch and the site can be found at http://bookmooch.com/. This is a book exchange site where you catalog the books you're willing to share. You receive points for books you send, and spend points to receive books. The _sender_ of the book pays shipping, which kind of sucks if you send out of country. They compensate by giving 3 points to the sender, and the receiver only requires 2 points to spend. It's actually a pretty cool system. The second site is called BookCrossing, the site is at http://bookcrossing.com. This book exchange site promotes the idea of tagging books (like wildlife animals) with an ID and then "releasing" the books "in the wild". You don't get points, and it doesn't cost you anything to participate. You then "hunt" for books you find off the list of those released. I almost equate it to a pseudo-acceptable way to throw your books away at local coffee shops and laundrymats. What you don't get is that direct person-to-person exchange of books. Yours would be the third type of site, which is a membership fee, free shipping paradigm. Might work. *shrug* Good luck! Chad From chewie at wookimus.net Thu Dec 20 10:28:22 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:28:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] mailing list of mailing lists In-Reply-To: <146441.58134.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <146441.58134.qm@web33710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32077.1198168102@skuld.wookimus.net> Lists that are subscribed to other lists is certainly something that has been done before, and can be quite practical. For example, let's say you have a project with four lists: project-users (unmoderated, subscriber post), project-developers (unmoderated, subscriber post, private), project-bugs (moderated, public post), and project-info (moderated, public read-only). Let's say all of your high-level project announcements are posted to project-info. It makes sense to also send any post there to the project-users list, so that people there don't have to subscribe to both lists and so that the person who posts to project-info doesn't also have to send email to project-users. I believe mailman has this capability. I know that ecartis does, and it's easy to set up with smartlist (given that smartlist is really just a bunch of procmail recipes). The commercial listserv does this as well, IIRC. Would I suggest subscribing a bunch of lists to a single one? Sure, as long as the traffic generated doesn't get to be insane. You do need to remember that posts to this "explosion list" should remain local and not propogate to the parent lists. One thing that parallels this idea, and is probably more practical, is the RSS feed "planet" sites that aggregate News and blogs. I will say that the moment that tclug-list becomes an explosion list is the day I unsubscribe. ;-) Anyway, back to the grind. Chad From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Dec 20 10:35:45 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:35:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Book exchange sites In-Reply-To: <32016.1198167682@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <32016.1198167682@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <200712201035.45254.tclug@lizakowski.com> You could instead mix it with geocaching to eliminate shipping fees :) Call it a distributed library. "hunting" for books could become a literal exercise. Jeremy On Thursday 20 December 2007 10:21:22 am Chad Walstrom wrote: > Dave, I hate to step on your idea, but it's already been done in two > different formats. The first is called BookMooch and the site can be > found at http://bookmooch.com/. This is a book exchange site where you > catalog the books you're willing to share. You receive points for books > you send, and spend points to receive books. The _sender_ of the book > pays shipping, which kind of sucks if you send out of country. They > compensate by giving 3 points to the sender, and the receiver only > requires 2 points to spend. It's actually a pretty cool system. > > The second site is called BookCrossing, the site is at > http://bookcrossing.com. This book exchange site promotes the idea of > tagging books (like wildlife animals) with an ID and then "releasing" > the books "in the wild". You don't get points, and it doesn't cost you > anything to participate. You then "hunt" for books you find off the > list of those released. I almost equate it to a pseudo-acceptable way > to throw your books away at local coffee shops and laundrymats. What > you don't get is that direct person-to-person exchange of books. > > Yours would be the third type of site, which is a membership fee, free > shipping paradigm. Might work. *shrug* Good luck! > > Chad > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 16:03:07 2007 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 16:03:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Minnesota - Next Online Meeting Message-ID: <1198015387.19156.11.camel@experimental> (For those receiving on LUG mailing lists - may be of interest to the Ubuntu users among you; the rest may safely ignore if you wish.) Hello all! Now that the semester is wrapping up for those in the group who are students, everyone has a brief lull between major holidays, and before we launch ourselves into 2008, I think it's time we brought our heads together again to hash out the next steps in the direction of our team. Therefore, we will be having a meeting on IRC this THURSDAY, at 19:30 CST (7:30 PM, for those of you who don't speak 24-hr clock), in #ubuntu-minnesota on Freenode. For those of you not already familiar with IRC, there are instructions for many popular clients available on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat. Additionally, if you have any trouble understanding those, just go to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam and click on the link labelled "Web Client" on the line containing "IRC - irc://irc.freenode.net/#ubuntu-us-mn, or [WWW] Web Client" under "Resources". This will take you straight to our channel, where you can either participate from within your browser, or get help setting up a desktop client. You can add any items you would like discussed to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/MeetingAgenda. This is a time to check in for any progress on previously mentioned items, hopefully talk about some plans for an Installfest in collaboration with TCLUG, and start pinning down details on the major initiatives we want to persue for the first quarter of 2008. - Tony Yarusso Ubuntu Minnesota, Team Contact From canito at dalan.us Thu Dec 20 14:02:24 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:02:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Book exchange sites In-Reply-To: <32016.1198167682@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <32016.1198167682@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20071220140224.0ti3c73gg0co8kcc@mail.dalan.us> : 216.243.175.157 does not like recipient? Anyway, thank you for the idea. I need to rid of a lot of books! I seems like a cool like, again thanks! Dizzle [Hide Quoted Text] Hi Anna: I am not sure if this would be something to start right off the bat. Did you know Angies list is based out of Bloomington? I didn't either, until I visited their building last week sometime. Please don't take this the wrong way, but in order to want to do something in this scale you have to know who your dealing with, it's like jumping into the ocean before checking if they're any sharks? Do you mind me asking how old you are, or what credentials you would present if say, we were meeting with a business man to help us with this, say a bank? David Quoting Anna Edwards : wanna do it? i could handle all the odd details. especially hosting. i have relations from rodchester ny to silicon valley ca to oregon. oh i almost forgot. i have reletives in every state across the us and canada. i can probibilly get some help with hosting. David Alanis wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Dec 20 15:40:04 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:40:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712202140.lBKLe4j25767@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: HP Proliant DL380 HP Proliant DL380 G3 Part #257917-001 Dual 2.4 Xeon Processors 2 GB Memory Redundant Power Supplies Redundant Fans Integrated RAID controller 4 x 72 GB U320 SCSI hard drives Rail Kit Not Included but I might be able to find one. $750.00 Seller Email address: rotbau at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From austad at signal15.com Thu Dec 20 16:01:47 2007 From: austad at signal15.com (Jay Austad) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:01:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Emulating a USB drive with linux Message-ID: <6EDB96D1-074B-4E5C-B1EF-4DFFCC596336@signal15.com> I just picked up a Viewsat VSPRO satellite receiver. It has PVR functionality which records shows to a USB connected hard drive. I want to get this data on my fileserver without having to physically move the drive to another machine and copy the files. So, here's my idea... I have a little embedded network device that runs linux. It has a USB port on it. I want it to act as a USB drive for the VSPRO, and then it would mount my fileserver over the network, and anything copied to it over USB would shoot over the network to my fileserver. Basically, I want to build a USB->network bridge for a device that does not support networking. Is this possible? Does someone make a commercial product that does this? Does anyone have a better idea? ~jay -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/b995b2fa/attachment.bin From florin at iucha.net Thu Dec 20 16:28:29 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:28:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Emulating a USB drive with linux In-Reply-To: <6EDB96D1-074B-4E5C-B1EF-4DFFCC596336@signal15.com> References: <6EDB96D1-074B-4E5C-B1EF-4DFFCC596336@signal15.com> Message-ID: <20071220222829.GM3695@iucha.net> On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:01:47PM -0600, Jay Austad wrote: > I just picked up a Viewsat VSPRO satellite receiver. It has PVR > functionality which records shows to a USB connected hard drive. I want to > get this data on my fileserver without having to physically move the drive > to another machine and copy the files. > > So, here's my idea... I have a little embedded network device that runs > linux. It has a USB port on it. I want it to act as a USB drive for the > VSPRO, and then it would mount my fileserver over the network, and anything > copied to it over USB would shoot over the network to my fileserver. > Basically, I want to build a USB->network bridge for a device that does not > support networking. Is this possible? Does someone make a commercial > product that does this? Check out the NGW100: it can act as an USB device and comes with emulations for mass storage, network and serial profiles. http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4102 It costs about $80 (and you need to add a power brick). Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/21144cb6/attachment.pgp From austad at signal15.com Thu Dec 20 17:04:52 2007 From: austad at signal15.com (Jay Austad) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:04:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Emulating a USB drive with linux In-Reply-To: <20071220222829.GM3695@iucha.net> References: <6EDB96D1-074B-4E5C-B1EF-4DFFCC596336@signal15.com> <20071220222829.GM3695@iucha.net> Message-ID: <76C9B01F-1B18-4B58-A3D2-5CE21ECBCE66@signal15.com> Hmm, I would have to write a bunch of code to make this work wouldn't I? Have any of you guys played with this? On Dec 20, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Dec 20, 2007 at 04:01:47PM -0600, Jay Austad wrote: >> I just picked up a Viewsat VSPRO satellite receiver. It has PVR >> functionality which records shows to a USB connected hard drive. I >> want to >> get this data on my fileserver without having to physically move >> the drive >> to another machine and copy the files. >> >> So, here's my idea... I have a little embedded network device that >> runs >> linux. It has a USB port on it. I want it to act as a USB drive >> for the >> VSPRO, and then it would mount my fileserver over the network, and >> anything >> copied to it over USB would shoot over the network to my fileserver. >> Basically, I want to build a USB->network bridge for a device that >> does not >> support networking. Is this possible? Does someone make a >> commercial >> product that does this? > > Check out the NGW100: it can act as an USB device and comes with > emulations for mass storage, network and serial profiles. > > http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=4102 > > It costs about $80 (and you need to add a power brick). > > Cheers, > florin > > -- > Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. > http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/35060c7e/attachment.bin From troythetechguy at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:10:38 2007 From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:10:38 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <20071220151816.GK3695@iucha.net> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> <20071220151816.GK3695@iucha.net> Message-ID: <34de7f3d0712201510k4c836507v283e18f50d4c2d53@mail.gmail.com> I tried to execute Jonathan's suggestion of disabling CPU scaling, but the command I found at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=87415 sudo killall powernowd Does nothing on my system. > > > What does 'hdparm /dev/hda' say? troy at hplaptop:~$ sudo hdparm /dev/hda /dev/hda: multcount = 0 (off) IO_support = 0 (default 16-bit) unmaskirq = 0 (off) using_dma = 1 (on) keepsettings = 0 (off) readonly = 0 (off) readahead = 256 (on) geometry = 65535/16/63, sectors = 78140160, start = 0 > Try 'hdparm -d1 -u1 -c1 -m8 /dev/hda' and see if it > improves things. You can run 'hdparm -t /dev/hda' before and after > running hdparm as suggested above. I'll run the above command and see if things improve. Right now, hdparm -t /dev/hda is /dev/hda: Timing buffered disk reads: 58 MB in 3.07 seconds = 18.87 MB/sec Check the kernel log for io errors > (using 'dmesg'). You'll know'em when you see'em. I found the following errors using 'dmesg', but I'm not sure what they mean. [11366.456000] ACPI: EC: acpi_ec_wait timeout, status = 32, expect_event = 1 [11366.456000] ACPI: EC: read timeout, command = 128 [11366.456000] ACPI Exception (evregion-0420): AE_TIME, Returned by Handler for [EmbeddedControl] [20070126] [11366.456000] ACPI Exception (dswexec-0462): AE_TIME, While resolving operands for [OpcodeName unavailable] [20070126] [11366.456000] ACPI Error (psparse-0551): Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0.ISA_.EC0_.SMRD] (Node df803330), AE_TIME [11366.456000] ACPI Error (psparse-0551): Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.BAT1.UPBH] (Node df8050d8), AE_TIME [11366.456000] ACPI Error (psparse-0551): Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.BAT1.CHBP] (Node df805138), AE_TIME [11366.456000] ACPI Error (psparse-0551): Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0.ISA_.EC0_.SMSL] (Node df803378), AE_TIME [11366.456000] ACPI Error (psparse-0551): Method parse/execution failed [\_SB_.PCI0.ISA_.EC0_._Q09] (Node df8033d8), AE_TIME Thanks again, Troy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/5a4ae9dd/attachment-0001.htm From jwo at umn.edu Thu Dec 20 23:04:10 2007 From: jwo at umn.edu (Jonathan Osborne) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:04:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0712201510k4c836507v283e18f50d4c2d53@mail.gmail.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> <20071220151816.GK3695@iucha.net> <34de7f3d0712201510k4c836507v283e18f50d4c2d53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476B494A.5010603@umn.edu> I just disabled the service via the GUI in Gnome. There should be a 'Services' menu item in Administration. There are also a bunch of other services running that you may not need (e.g., bluetooth). Jonathan Osborne jwo at umn.edu Troy said the following on 12/20/2007 17.10 > I tried to execute Jonathan's suggestion of disabling CPU scaling, but > the command I found at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=87415 > > sudo killall powernowd > > > Does nothing on my system. From troythetechguy at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 05:53:47 2007 From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:53:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] diagnostics In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0712210352s300c5069y3bf5cfcbeb18b8f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <34de7f3d0712191136k7abc570v5a4cc5c047214181@mail.gmail.com> <4769B5A2.3090202@ripperd.com> <34de7f3d0712200526p23f22e26jd13d1cd91df1e885@mail.gmail.com> <20071220151816.GK3695@iucha.net> <34de7f3d0712201510k4c836507v283e18f50d4c2d53@mail.gmail.com> <476B494A.5010603@umn.edu> <34de7f3d0712210352s300c5069y3bf5cfcbeb18b8f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34de7f3d0712210353g5a554ff0gedeabd919b53b3b4@mail.gmail.com> Jonathan, Thank you. I found the CPU Frequency Manager exactly where you described. I unchecked the box next to the program and restarted. I'll see if this makes a difference. I found a solution to speeding up my boot time. I guess my 'usplash' settings were incorrect. Once I changed to the correct resolution, my boot time was cut in 1/2! If anyone else is experiencing this issue, I found the instructions at http:// ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=581075 This appears to be an issue with Ubuntu Gutsy (7.10). Troy On Dec 20, 2007 11:04 PM, Jonathan Osborne < jwo at umn.edu> wrote: > I just disabled the service via the GUI in Gnome. There should be a > 'Services' menu item in Administration. There are also a bunch of other > services running that you may not need (e.g., bluetooth). > > > Jonathan Osborne > jwo at umn.edu > -- Website of the week: http://www.ubuntu.com/ The Free Alternative to M$ Office: http://www.openoffice.org My Blog: http://troythetechguy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071221/cc662348/attachment.htm From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 13:45:06 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:45:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] java game Message-ID: <236928.89312.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> recently, i decided to create a video game that is web based java. however, i am pondering on which distro to use for the server and which for development. also, to support 1000 simultaneous users, what hardware specs should i use considering it will be simple 2d to start with for the server? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From anna2edw at yahoo.com Sat Dec 22 13:45:29 2007 From: anna2edw at yahoo.com (Anna Edwards) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:45:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] java game Message-ID: <873280.24988.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> recently, i decided to create a video game that is web based java. however, i am pondering on which distro to use for the server and which for development. also, to support 1000 simultaneous users, what hardware specs should i use considering it will be simple 2d to start with for the server? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From ecrist at secure-computing.net Sat Dec 22 18:41:03 2007 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:41:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] java game In-Reply-To: <236928.89312.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <236928.89312.qm@web33708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73EC2711-4489-4A57-9D88-2BCBD8C0E70B@secure-computing.net> On Dec 22, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Anna Edwards wrote: > recently, i decided to create a video game that is web based java. > however, i am pondering on which distro to use for the server and > which for development. also, to support 1000 simultaneous users, > what hardware specs should i use considering it will be simple 2d to > start with for the server? FreeBSD. If it's a java game, all of the major processing should be done on the client side, with some database serving done on the server side. Whatever 'distro' you choose, use the same thing for development as you use for production. Also, regardless of 'distro,' 1000 users is really nothing to speak of, provided you have enough internet bandwidth. ----- Eric F Crist Secure Computing Networks From cschumann at twp-llc.com Mon Dec 24 07:57:14 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:57:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Old Machine Running Modern Distro Message-ID: <476FBABA.9050203@twp-llc.com> http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/Installing_Ubuntu_on_a_ThinkPad_750P I just documented putting Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (Dapper Drake) on my ThinkPad 750P. Just to give you some idea of the difficulty, here are some of the specs of this machine: + 33MHz 80486 CPU + 36MB RAM + 5.1GB Disk + Floppy drive + 10.4" 640x480 gray scale display - No CD drive at all - No USB ports I would really appreciate any tips on how to get the rest of the system working: Function keys, sound, TrackPoint, suspend/resume. If anyone is up for porting the WD90C24 video driver to X.org, that would be most appreciated! :) I might actually be able to help with that one. I'd like to get the pen working (yes, it's a convertible!) but that doesn't seem very useful without X. Chris From srcfoo at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 11:53:24 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:53:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: TAIYO YUDEN media Message-ID: <579c6fd30712260953w4d982828je2db1e2ce1e5804f@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know where I can find Taiyo Yuden DVD-R media in the cities? I see it on NewEgg, but I want it today! :) Thanks, Eric From andyzib at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 13:19:23 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 13:19:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] java game Message-ID: <4772a941.180e240a.602e.ffffecf7@mx.google.com> Pick the distro/OS/kernel that you are best able to support. Others on the list can trumpet the merits of [Ubuntu/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/RedHat/Fedora/Windows/Whatever] but at the end of the day it will be you who is looking at the console when things need to be setup or fixed. Andrew Zbikowski Sry bout d spln, snt frm my mobl fone. http://andy.zibnet.us From srcfoo at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 22:43:43 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:43:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: TAIYO YUDEN media In-Reply-To: <00d101c84818$936a95b0$f900000a@hmlabl2k001> References: <579c6fd30712260953w4d982828je2db1e2ce1e5804f@mail.gmail.com> <00d101c84818$936a95b0$f900000a@hmlabl2k001> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712262043h38adbaa0jc9f5460d4efb777@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 26, 2007 5:39 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote: > I just happened to notice today that OfficeMax has a 100 pack spindle of > Verbatim 16X DVD-R on sale for $24.99 through Saturday. I know it's not > exactly what you are looking for but I've had great luck with this media and > this is a great price. > > Brian Thanks for the tip, Brian! I bought a spindle tonight. I used dvd+rw-mediainfo to get the media ID and found that they are MCC004. According to this site -> http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm that's a top tier media so I guess I can feel good about getting them since it also lists the Taiyo Yuden at the same level. I'll let you know 20 years down the road how they turned out! ;) Eric From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Dec 26 22:57:48 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:57:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200712270457.lBR4vmo05330@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Misc Computer Stuff This is another typical house cleaning sale. PC #1 p2-450 128mb 3.5gb hd floppy drive std mid size case (outer shell is mis matched to the actual case, does not seal all the way but covers it mostly) 250w psu 10/100 nic ps2 keyboard/mouse port standard vga card PC #2 amd k6-2 266 128mb ram 8gb no floppy 2x 10/100 nics std mid case case with newer psu old db5 keyboard port ps2 / serial mouse port standard vga card PC #3 (note has no HD) amd k6-2 350 128mb ram no hd no floppy 10/100 nic full tower case, 300w psu db5 keyboard port ps2 / serial mouse port standard vga card Individual Parts 64mb ram, pc100, cl2, ecc 32mb ram, pc66 random ram stick, probably pc100 or so 4x 10/100 nics netgear he102 802.11a WAP cisco 678 dsl router creative pci soundcard pci soundcard (unknown brand) netgear wg511t pcmcia Trident brand pci vid card decent geforce agp card (fan is busted, overheats now) Cisco Press books from 1998: IOS Dial Solutions IOS Solutions for Network Protocols Vol II IOS Bridging and IBM Network Solutions Except where noted all parts were functioning at last use. $10/ea for the PC's $25/ea for the DSL router and WAP $5 for the RAM $5/ea for everything else Please let me know if you have questions. I am willing to drop off to most of the TC metro area. Seller Email address: jus at krytosvirus dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Dec 27 08:22:42 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 08:22:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid Message-ID: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 00000001" Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF 00000080 00000001" -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 09:07:09 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:07:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/07, Jon Schewe wrote: > I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power > messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've > disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this > is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s > are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that > it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 > 00000001" > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF > 00000080 00000001" I had the exact same problem once although I doubt it's the same problem you're having. Someone was moving things around in the office with the server and powered off the server several times using the power button. So, depending on your situation you may want to check with anyone who has access to the server. :) Eric From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Dec 27 09:11:44 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:11:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4773C0B0.9090806@mtu.net> Eric Peterson wrote: > On 12/27/07, Jon Schewe wrote: > >> I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power >> messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've >> disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this >> is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s >> are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that >> it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 >> 00000001" >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF >> 00000080 00000001" >> > > I had the exact same problem once although I doubt it's the same > problem you're having. Someone was moving things around in the office > with the server and powered off the server several times using the > power button. > > So, depending on your situation you may want to check with anyone who > has access to the server. :) > It's in a room with controlled access and I've checked with the guard, so that's not it. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From tclug at natecarlson.com Thu Dec 27 09:43:42 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:43:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Jon Schewe wrote: > I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power > messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've > disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this > is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s > are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that > it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 > 00000001" > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF > 00000080 00000001" That's really interesting! Have you compared the bios versions between the systems? Do you have a DRAC card installed? If so, is the firmware version the same as the others? Do you have heartbeat turned on in the BIOS? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 10:00:02 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:00:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30712270759o23778e71q7d2de8e8194a115c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> <4773C0B0.9090806@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270759o23778e71q7d2de8e8194a115c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712270800m5c5106f8x3fde9d0968d2193a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/07, Eric Peterson wrote: > On 12/27/07, Jon Schewe wrote: > > It's in a room with controlled access and I've checked with the guard, > > so that's not it. > > > It's not a faulty backup unit sending signals to poweroff the server is it? > I better clarify... I meant backup power unit such as an APC Backups connected via USB or serial. From srcfoo at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 09:59:27 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:59:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <4773C0B0.9090806@mtu.net> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> <4773C0B0.9090806@mtu.net> Message-ID: <579c6fd30712270759o23778e71q7d2de8e8194a115c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/07, Jon Schewe wrote: > It's in a room with controlled access and I've checked with the guard, > so that's not it. It's not a faulty backup unit sending signals to poweroff the server is it? From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Dec 27 10:03:17 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:03:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30712270759o23778e71q7d2de8e8194a115c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270707p11f84e42pf9879154c29c0710@mail.gmail.com> <4773C0B0.9090806@mtu.net> <579c6fd30712270759o23778e71q7d2de8e8194a115c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4773CCC5.2020309@mtu.net> Eric Peterson wrote: > On 12/27/07, Jon Schewe wrote: > >> It's in a room with controlled access and I've checked with the guard, >> so that's not it. >> > > > It's not a faulty backup unit sending signals to poweroff the server is it? > It's on UPS power, but does not receive a signal from the UPS. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/6c94f9a5/attachment-0001.htm From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Dec 27 10:02:42 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:02:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> Message-ID: <4773CCA2.2070108@mtu.net> Nate Carlson wrote: > On Thu, 27 Dec 2007, Jon Schewe wrote: >> I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power >> messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've >> disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this >> is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s >> are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that >> it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 >> 00000001" >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] >> Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF >> 00000080 00000001" > > That's really interesting! > > Have you compared the bios versions between the systems? > It's identical to another machine that is also running the same OS without problems. > Do you have a DRAC card installed? If so, is the firmware version the > same as the others? > No. > Do you have heartbeat turned on in the BIOS? No. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From wilson at visi.com Thu Dec 27 11:30:04 2007 From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:30:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Config for mail relay Message-ID: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> Hey everyone, I'd like to create a little server running Ubuntu and postfix that would be a mail relay for a few other servers in our school district. For example, rather than configuring our Moodle and nagios servers to send their own mail, I'd like to point them at the mail relay and have it send the mail for them. This box would not need to receive mail, only send it. We run GroupWise for our staff email accounts, but it can be a hassle to configure other servers to send mail through GW sometimes. I started putting together a main.cf file for postfix and got this far (in addition to the other default settings): mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain myhostname = bison mydomain = buffalo.k12.mn.us myorigin = $mydomain relayhost = monitor.buffalo.k12.mn.us # This is our nagios server Am I on the right track here? -Tim -- Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy mailto: wilson at visi.com aim: tis270 blog and podcast: http://technosavvy.org From blutgens at us-admins.com Thu Dec 27 17:01:30 2007 From: blutgens at us-admins.com (Ben Lutgens) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:01:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] java game In-Reply-To: <4772a941.180e240a.602e.ffffecf7@mx.google.com> References: <4772a941.180e240a.602e.ffffecf7@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Bah zibby, you know better than to let a potential flamewar die out! EMACS SUCKS!!! On Dec 26, 2007 1:19 PM, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > Pick the distro/OS/kernel that you are best able to support. Others on the > list can trumpet the merits of > [Ubuntu/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/RedHat/Fedora/Windows/Whatever] but at the end of > the day it will be you who is looking at the console when things need to be > setup or fixed. > > Andrew Zbikowski > Sry bout d spln, snt frm my mobl fone. > http://andy.zibnet.us > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Ben Lutgens Linux / Unix Sysadmin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/25fbc8ed/attachment.htm From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Dec 27 17:30:32 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:30:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> Message-ID: <47743598.8020708@mtu.net> Yep, I disabled it in /etc/sysconfig/powersave/events, however I'm still receiving them and that makes me nervous, especially since it halted last weekend after I thought I had this changed. What would I miss by not having acpi? Ben wrote: > If its a "server" and should be always on, you could disable that > particular nugget of ACPI (I am assuming you're using acpi for other > stuff like thermal zone monitoring etc. > > Take a peek at your /etc/acpi/events/ directory you should be able to > modify some stuff in there to cause the power button event from doing > anything. I also suspect there is a way to disable it at the kernel > level it would depend on your kernel though I think. > > If you don't care about any acpi functionality you can pass something > like "acpi=off" to your kernel via grub/lilo. > > On Dec 27, 2007 8:22 AM, Jon Schewe < jpschewe at mtu.net > > wrote: > > I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power > messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've > disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however > this > is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell > 690s > are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is > that > it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF > 00000080 > 00000001" > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF > 00000080 00000001" > > -- > Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe > If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital > signature. > See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. > > For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels > nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any > powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all > creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that > is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > -- > Ben Lutgens > Linux / Unix Sysadmin -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From florin at iucha.net Thu Dec 27 23:35:24 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:35:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Config for mail relay In-Reply-To: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> References: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> Message-ID: <20071228053524.GC9296@hera.iucha.org> On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 11:30:04AM -0600, Tim Wilson wrote: > I'd like to create a little server running Ubuntu and postfix that > would be a mail relay for a few other servers in our school district. > For example, rather than configuring our Moodle and nagios servers to > send their own mail, I'd like to point them at the mail relay and have > it send the mail for them. This box would not need to receive mail, > only send it. We run GroupWise for our staff email accounts, but it > can be a hassle to configure other servers to send mail through GW > sometimes. > > I started putting together a main.cf file for postfix and got this far > (in addition to the other default settings): > > mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain > myhostname = bison > mydomain = buffalo.k12.mn.us > myorigin = $mydomain > relayhost = monitor.buffalo.k12.mn.us # This is our nagios server > > Am I on the right track here? You are, but going the wrong way 8^) mydestination is for e-mail that you are going to deliver locally. relayhost is what is the next hop for e-mail once it leaves your box - it is the equivalent of smarthost from sendmail. I would leave both blank, as you don't want to deliver any e-mail locally and you want your box to deliver the relayed messages itself. That being said, I have not implemented a setup like yours, so others might want to chime in. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/35f79a01/attachment.pgp From trnja001 at umn.edu Thu Dec 27 23:47:49 2007 From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:47:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Config for mail relay In-Reply-To: <20071228053524.GC9296@hera.iucha.org> References: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> <20071228053524.GC9296@hera.iucha.org> Message-ID: <47748E05.6000101@umn.edu> Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Dec 27, 2007 at 11:30:04AM -0600, Tim Wilson wrote: > >> I'd like to create a little server running Ubuntu and postfix that >> would be a mail relay for a few other servers in our school district. >> For example, rather than configuring our Moodle and nagios servers to >> send their own mail, I'd like to point them at the mail relay and have >> it send the mail for them. This box would not need to receive mail, >> only send it. We run GroupWise for our staff email accounts, but it >> can be a hassle to configure other servers to send mail through GW >> sometimes. >> >> I started putting together a main.cf file for postfix and got this far >> (in addition to the other default settings): >> >> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain >> myhostname = bison >> mydomain = buffalo.k12.mn.us >> myorigin = $mydomain >> relayhost = monitor.buffalo.k12.mn.us # This is our nagios server >> >> Am I on the right track here? >> > > You are, but going the wrong way 8^) > > mydestination is for e-mail that you are going to deliver locally. > > relayhost is what is the next hop for e-mail once it leaves your box - > it is the equivalent of smarthost from sendmail. > > I would leave both blank, as you don't want to deliver any e-mail > locally and you want your box to deliver the relayed messages itself. > > That being said, I have not implemented a setup like yours, so others > might want to chime in. > > Cheers, > florin > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you add SMTP-auth, you can just use that to control what can send/relay mail through that server. I don't think you need to do anything else for that machine to be a relay. From jpschewe at mtu.net Fri Dec 28 08:53:00 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:53:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Config for mail relay In-Reply-To: <477436CC.3080801@mtu.net> References: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> <477436CC.3080801@mtu.net> Message-ID: <47750DCC.3000308@mtu.net> One more thing. You will also need to set mynetworks to the list of machines that should be allowed to relay mail through you. Jon Schewe wrote: > Close. Here's what I have for a similar server I have at work. It also > does alias rewriting. > > masquerade_exceptions = root > masquerade_classes = envelope_sender, header_sender, header_recipient > myhostname = lug.htc.honeywell.com > masquerade_domains = htc.honeywell.com > mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain > relayhost = [smtp.honeywell.com] > mailbox_command = > mailbox_transport = > > The mailbox_* keep postfix from delivering any mail locally. > > Tim Wilson wrote: > >> Hey everyone, >> >> I'd like to create a little server running Ubuntu and postfix that >> would be a mail relay for a few other servers in our school district. >> For example, rather than configuring our Moodle and nagios servers to >> send their own mail, I'd like to point them at the mail relay and have >> it send the mail for them. This box would not need to receive mail, >> only send it. We run GroupWise for our staff email accounts, but it >> can be a hassle to configure other servers to send mail through GW >> sometimes. >> >> I started putting together a main.cf file for postfix and got this far >> (in addition to the other default settings): >> >> mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain >> myhostname = bison >> mydomain = buffalo.k12.mn.us >> myorigin = $mydomain >> relayhost = monitor.buffalo.k12.mn.us # This is our nagios server >> >> Am I on the right track here? >> >> -Tim >> >> >> > > -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From austad at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 15:42:58 2007 From: austad at gmail.com (Jay Austad) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:42:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Emulating a USB drive with linux Message-ID: I just picked up a Viewsat VSPRO satellite receiver. It has PVR functionality which records shows to a USB connected hard drive. I want to get this data on my fileserver without having to physically move the drive to another machine and copy the files. So, here's my idea... I have a little embedded network device that runs linux. It has a USB port on it. I want it to act as a USB drive for the VSPRO, and then it would mount my fileserver over the network, and anything copied to it over USB would shoot over the network to my fileserver. Is this possible? Does someone make a commercial product that does this? Does anyone have a better idea? ~jay -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071220/3a152e5b/attachment.bin From blutgens at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 16:51:19 2007 From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:51:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Config for mail relay In-Reply-To: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> References: <82D48AD3-A1C9-4C96-BB1D-7AB8D4BD75F4@visi.com> Message-ID: Yeah you're on the right track, but you'll also need to make sure postfix knows to allow certain hosts to us it as a relay. You can do this right in the main.cf file with something like the following: mynetworks: 192.168.0.0/27, 127.0.0.0/8 Either that or setup SMTP AUTH and TLS to restrict relaying by user account. There are a number of ways to setup your client machines with postfix/exim/sendmail/ssmtp to be an auth client. On Dec 27, 2007 11:30 AM, Tim Wilson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > I'd like to create a little server running Ubuntu and postfix that > would be a mail relay for a few other servers in our school district. > For example, rather than configuring our Moodle and nagios servers to > send their own mail, I'd like to point them at the mail relay and have > it send the mail for them. This box would not need to receive mail, > only send it. We run GroupWise for our staff email accounts, but it > can be a hassle to configure other servers to send mail through GW > sometimes. > > I started putting together a main.cf file for postfix and got this far > (in addition to the other default settings): > > mydestination = $myhostname, localhost.$mydomain, $mydomain > myhostname = bison > mydomain = buffalo.k12.mn.us > myorigin = $mydomain > relayhost = monitor.buffalo.k12.mn.us # This is our nagios server > > Am I on the right track here? > > -Tim > > -- > Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist > Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA > Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy > mailto: wilson at visi.com aim: tis270 blog and podcast: > http://technosavvy.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Ben Lutgens Linux / Unix Sysadmin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/47646bbc/attachment.htm From blutgens at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 16:58:46 2007 From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:58:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> Message-ID: If its a "server" and should be always on, you could disable that particular nugget of ACPI (I am assuming you're using acpi for other stuff like thermal zone monitoring etc. Take a peek at your /etc/acpi/events/ directory you should be able to modify some stuff in there to cause the power button event from doing anything. I also suspect there is a way to disable it at the kernel level it would depend on your kernel though I think. If you don't care about any acpi functionality you can pass something like "acpi=off" to your kernel via grub/lilo. On Dec 27, 2007 8:22 AM, Jon Schewe wrote: > I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power > messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've > disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however this > is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell 690s > are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is that > it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF 00000080 > 00000001" > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF > 00000080 00000001" > > -- > Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe > If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital > signature. > See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. > > For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels > nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any > powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all > creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that > is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Ben Lutgens Linux / Unix Sysadmin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/a5d1e3ee/attachment.htm From blutgens at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 18:03:02 2007 From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:03:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Phantom power button messages sent to acpid In-Reply-To: <47743598.8020708@mtu.net> References: <4773B532.2030804@mtu.net> <47743598.8020708@mtu.net> Message-ID: temp, fan, battery monitoring etc. My guess is you won't miss it at all. ACPI isn't the only way to monitor those things mind you, many motherboards have some built in sensors that something like lm_sensors can read. My guess is you've got a buggy acpi bios or kernel driver. It could be something like a faulty switch or something as well, who knows. On Dec 27, 2007 5:30 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: > Yep, I disabled it in /etc/sysconfig/powersave/events, however I'm still > receiving them and that makes me nervous, especially since it halted > last weekend after I thought I had this changed. What would I miss by > not having acpi? > > Ben wrote: > > If its a "server" and should be always on, you could disable that > > particular nugget of ACPI (I am assuming you're using acpi for other > > stuff like thermal zone monitoring etc. > > > > Take a peek at your /etc/acpi/events/ directory you should be able to > > modify some stuff in there to cause the power button event from doing > > anything. I also suspect there is a way to disable it at the kernel > > level it would depend on your kernel though I think. > > > > If you don't care about any acpi functionality you can pass something > > like "acpi=off" to your kernel via grub/lilo. > > > > On Dec 27, 2007 8:22 AM, Jon Schewe < jpschewe at mtu.net > > > wrote: > > > > I've got a Dell 690 server that is receiving phantom button/power > > messages in acpid and causing the machine to reboot sometimes. I've > > disabled the power button message in the acpi events file, however > > this > > is still concerning. Anyone got a clue about this? My other Dell > > 690s > > are fine. The major difference between this one and the others is > > that > > it has 32GB of RAM instead of 4GB. > > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: received event "button/power PWRF > > 00000080 > > 00000001" > > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3585[0:0] > > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: notifying client 3102[101:102] > > Dec 22 20:15:14 bolt [acpid]: completed event "button/power PWRF > > 00000080 00000001" > > > > -- > > Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe < > http://mtu.net/%7Ejpschewe> > > If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital > > signature. > > See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. > > > > For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels > > nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any > > powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all > > creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that > > is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ben Lutgens > > Linux / Unix Sysadmin > > -- > Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe > If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital > signature. > See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. > > For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels > nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any > powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all > creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that > is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 > > -- Ben Lutgens Linux / Unix Sysadmin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071227/cb4c3b78/attachment.htm From dsteven8 at rochester.rr.com Sat Dec 22 16:54:26 2007 From: dsteven8 at rochester.rr.com (David Stevenson) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:54:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [Lugor-discuss] java game In-Reply-To: <873280.24988.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <873280.24988.qm@web33704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c844ed$9afaba40$6601a8c0@stevensonlaptop> Are you writing a Java applet, using Java Swing, Java Server Pages or Java Server Faces? Or JavaFX? David Stevenson -----Original Message----- From: lugor-discuss-bounces at list.xcski.com [mailto:lugor-discuss-bounces at list.xcski.com] On Behalf Of Anna Edwards Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:45 PM To: svlug at list-svlug.org Cc: lugor-discuss at list.xcski.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: [Lugor-discuss] java game recently, i decided to create a video game that is web based java. however, i am pondering on which distro to use for the server and which for development. also, to support 1000 simultaneous users, what hardware specs should i use considering it will be simple 2d to start with for the server? ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ _______________________________________________ Lugor-discuss mailing list Lugor-discuss at list.xcski.com http://list.xcski.com/mailman/listinfo/lugor-discuss From markdeb.browne at comcast.net Fri Dec 28 17:04:16 2007 From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (Mark Browne) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:04:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Spam Smack-down Message-ID: <000801c849a5$f8ab3360$1202a8c0@AMD64> This is not very Linux related, but the readers of this list tend to full-fledged Internet plumbing Gurus, and I think that is who I need to ask so here goes ... One of my e-mail account is bing used as a "from" address for penny stock spam and I am getting 500 to 1000 bounces a day on this account. My spam filter catches most to the traffic but I am getting tired of dealing with the mess. Is there a way to find out who is spraying this crud and get back to them? Mark Browne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071228/9dd88514/attachment.htm From florin at iucha.net Fri Dec 28 17:21:20 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:21:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Spam Smack-down In-Reply-To: <000801c849a5$f8ab3360$1202a8c0@AMD64> References: <000801c849a5$f8ab3360$1202a8c0@AMD64> Message-ID: <20071228232119.GA7185@iris.iucha.org> On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 05:04:16PM -0600, Mark Browne wrote: > This is not very Linux related, but the readers of this list tend to > full-fledged Internet plumbing Gurus, and I think that is who I need to ask > so here goes ... > > One of my e-mail account is bing used as a "from" address for penny stock > spam and I am getting 500 to 1000 bounces a day on this account. > My spam filter catches most to the traffic but I am getting tired of dealing > with the mess. > > Is there a way to find out who is spraying this crud and get back to them? Ha! Double-dog-bounce-back! Only if the site that sends you the backscatter is careful enough to include the complete headers of the message they received. And even then, the perpetrator might have dissapeared from the web by the time you try going after them. Also, much of the 'backscatter' is in fact cloaked spam. The thing that most drastically reduces the spam nowadays is rejecting connections from servers that lack reverse DNS records or whose greeting does not match their address, followed by gr[ae]ylisting. But if you don't have control over the mail server then you need to resign to filtering what you can and deleting what you can't. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071228/e49360bb/attachment.pgp From chewie at wookimus.net Fri Dec 28 17:48:17 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:48:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Spam Smack-down In-Reply-To: <20071228232119.GA7185@iris.iucha.org> References: <000801c849a5$f8ab3360$1202a8c0@AMD64> <20071228232119.GA7185@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: <1088.1198885697@skuld.wookimus.net> Additionally, there are ways of filtering out backscatter based on your MTA. Check out the documentation site for postfix, or get a copy of the "bat" book for sendmail. Chad From tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com Fri Dec 28 18:30:29 2007 From: tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com (Robert De Mars) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 18:30:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Found Dell in Alley Message-ID: <47759525.4070108@b-o-b.homelinux.com> Hello, and a good day to you all. I was wondering if anyone had any Dell laptop parts laying around. I know this is slightly OT, but I will be installing Linux if it works. I found a Dell Inspiron 8500 laying in the alley. It is slightly scuffed up, missing the "v" key, has no HDD, but other than that appears to be in good order. There is no life in the battery. I was wondering if anyone has a laptop like this? If so, I was wondering if I could meet up to try your power cord? I hate to buy a power cord, only to find out the laptop is junk. If it does turn on, then I'd be more than happy to purchase a power cord, and a HDD. Can anyone help? Thanks, Robert De Mars From canito at dalan.us Fri Dec 28 21:23:50 2007 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 21:23:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Found Dell in Alley In-Reply-To: <47759525.4070108@b-o-b.homelinux.com> References: <47759525.4070108@b-o-b.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <20071228212350.3x40iw3iso88g084@mail.dalan.us> I have an original spare dell power supply. All in tact except the plastic is coming lose at one end but still works! David Quoting Robert De Mars : > Hello, and a good day to you all. I was wondering if anyone had any > Dell laptop parts laying around. I know this is slightly OT, but I will > be installing Linux if it works. > > I found a Dell Inspiron 8500 laying in the alley. It is slightly > scuffed up, missing the "v" key, has no HDD, but other than that appears > to be in good order. There is no life in the battery. > > I was wondering if anyone has a laptop like this? If so, I was > wondering if I could meet up to try your power cord? I hate to buy a > power cord, only to find out the laptop is junk. If it does turn on, > then I'd be more than happy to purchase a power cord, and a HDD. > > Can anyone help? > > Thanks, > > Robert De Mars > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From john.meier at gmail.com Sat Dec 29 08:30:05 2007 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:30:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Found Dell in Alley In-Reply-To: <47759525.4070108@b-o-b.homelinux.com> References: <47759525.4070108@b-o-b.homelinux.com> Message-ID: <65293fcc0712290630x63af0092r94706cdc927e1e65@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 28, 2007 6:30 PM, Robert De Mars wrote: > . . . . > > I found a Dell Inspiron 8500 . . > > > I was wondering if anyone has a laptop like this? If so, I was > wondering if I could meet up to try your power cord? Don't have one - but if you do find a cord to test with and it still doesn't work - try jiggling it around in the jack - and jiggle it some more and more while pressing the power button. Watch for any lights lighting up. Ive repaired a couple of dell laps with the same type of power jack - the jack gets all forked up and needs to be re soldered on the MB or replaced - it's enough trouble to make you want to throw he whole deal in an alley! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20071229/f087e357/attachment.htm From brockn at gmail.com Sun Dec 30 02:12:52 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:12:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Security concerns for local traffic Message-ID: <741dcbb80712300012g5e668585o60c37473d6f6158@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Many people are using pound ( http://www.apsis.ch/pound/ ) to proxy traffic from port 443 to another port using the local interface. On Linux, I don't believe a regular user can open network devices for dumping. At least that is what my tests below show me. Does anyone know if its the kernel denying access or the library itself? Can you think of any other security concerns which would result from sending unencrypted traffic over a local port? Thanks! Brock [noland at a90 ~]$ cat pcap-open-default.c #include #include int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { char *dev, errbuf[PCAP_ERRBUF_SIZE]; dev = pcap_lookupdev(errbuf); if (dev == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "Couldn't find default device: %s\n", errbuf); return(2); } printf("Device: %s\n", dev); return(0); } [noland at a90 ~]$ gcc -lpcap pcap-open-default.c [noland at a90 ~]$ ./a.out Couldn't find default device: no suitable device found [noland at a90 ~]$ sudo ./a.out Device: eth0 [noland at a90 ~]$ cat pcap-find-all.c #include #include int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { char errbuf[PCAP_ERRBUF_SIZE]; pcap_if_t *dev; pcap_findalldevs(&dev, errbuf); if (dev == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "Couldn't find any devices: %s\n", errbuf); return(2); } while(dev != NULL) { printf("Device: %s\n", dev->name); dev = dev->next; } return(0); } [noland at a90 ~]$ gcc -lpcap pcap-find-all.c [noland at a90 ~]$ ./a.out Couldn't find any devices: socket: Operation not permitted [noland at a90 ~]$ sudo ./a.out Device: eth0 Device: any Device: lo From dean at ripperd.com Sun Dec 30 04:38:58 2007 From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean E) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:38:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Security concerns for local traffic In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80712300012g5e668585o60c37473d6f6158@mail.gmail.com> References: <741dcbb80712300012g5e668585o60c37473d6f6158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47777542.1040007@ripperd.com> (yes, I am top-posting) You are correct. I believe the kernel is denying you raw access to the network interfaces. This would be a serious security issue if regular users had raw access to the network interfaces. IE, joe user could run tcpdump and catch john user's (or root's) network traffic! Also, I believe non-root users are not allowed to open ports <1024 fwiw. -Dean Brock Noland wrote: > Greetings, > > Many people are using pound ( http://www.apsis.ch/pound/ ) to proxy > traffic from port 443 to another port using the local interface. > > On Linux, I don't believe a regular user can open network devices for > dumping. At least that is what my tests below show me. Does anyone > know if its the kernel denying access or the library itself? Can you > think of any other security concerns which would result from sending > unencrypted traffic over a local port? > > Thanks! > Brock > > [noland at a90 ~]$ cat pcap-open-default.c > #include > #include > int main(int argc, char *argv[]) > { > char *dev, errbuf[PCAP_ERRBUF_SIZE]; > dev = pcap_lookupdev(errbuf); > if (dev == NULL) { > fprintf(stderr, "Couldn't find default device: %s\n", errbuf); > return(2); > } > printf("Device: %s\n", dev); > return(0); > } > > [noland at a90 ~]$ gcc -lpcap pcap-open-default.c > [noland at a90 ~]$ ./a.out > Couldn't find default device: no suitable device found > [noland at a90 ~]$ sudo ./a.out > Device: eth0 > > [noland at a90 ~]$ cat pcap-find-all.c > #include > #include > int main(int argc, char *argv[]) > { > char errbuf[PCAP_ERRBUF_SIZE]; > pcap_if_t *dev; > pcap_findalldevs(&dev, errbuf); > if (dev == NULL) { > fprintf(stderr, "Couldn't find any devices: %s\n", errbuf); > return(2); > } > while(dev != NULL) { > printf("Device: %s\n", dev->name); > dev = dev->next; > } > return(0); > } > > [noland at a90 ~]$ gcc -lpcap pcap-find-all.c > [noland at a90 ~]$ ./a.out > Couldn't find any devices: socket: Operation not permitted > [noland at a90 ~]$ sudo ./a.out > Device: eth0 > Device: any > Device: lo > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list