From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 03:12:13 2006
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 03:12:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions... [OT?]
Message-ID: <27e6356a0606010112m3dd2fdd5pb96701fbcde10ca9@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/31/06, David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu> wrote:
> My project is to setup a ghosting server/PC manager to quickly image and install PC's. However, there is no two computers alike at one given point to image.
...
ok here is my question :P what recommendations can I get regarding the
cloning of Window computers without the hassle of using a third party
crap?


I'm not sure if I entirely understand the question, but I've done a
fair amount of work with cloning windows boxes at work, so here's my
best shot...
First off, Ghost corporate seems to truly be the best option for
cloning computers.  I've tried many other options (including G4L and
G4U) and nothing else works as well, as fast, and on as many
computers.  It also easily handles cloning onto different sized hard
drives, so long as the target drive is at least as large as the amount
of used space on the original hard drive.

As for no two computers being completely alike, are there large groups
of computers that are relatively similar?  If so, you can probably do
what my company does, and use Microsoft's sysprep tool before making a
ghost image of the original computer.  sysprep has an option to rescan
for hardware changes, so if something minor changes, like the size of
the hard drive/RAM or speed of processor, or most plug and play PCI
cards, windows SHOULD detect that change upon it's first boot, and
take that in stride.  Also, if running XP on the computer, it is best
to clone before activating the computer, and if has NOT been
activated, do NOT reset the timer in sysprep.  You're only allowed to
do that so many times before it tells you it can't do it any more.
That can be a real PITA.

To add a little bit of on-topic discussion...due to the volume of
computers that my company has been cloning recently, we decided that
we needed to have half a dozen ghost servers available at any moment,
all with access to the same images, so I set up a rack of older server
computers running 2000 server with the ghost server program on them
and running terminal services.  I set up a Ubuntu box with a 3TB SCSI
RAID connected to it to hold all of our images, and used samba to
share all the images with the ghost servers over gig-e.  Using this
setup, I can fire off a ghost process from my desk by using rdesktop
to control one of the ghost servers.
You could, of course, comply with the mandate of sticking with
Microsoft OSes and still get the job done, but my co-workers and I
felt that Linux provided a more elegant solution to our particular
problem.
I hope that's helpful.

- Justin


From clay at fandre.com  Thu Jun  1 07:42:32 2006
From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 07:42:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Fwd:  Installfest plans]
Message-ID: <447EE0B8.1090605@fandre.com>

Just a reminder that the TCLUG installfest is this Saturday. And don't
forget, at noon Dave Christian is going to talk about some cool products
from rPath. (and there will be pizza for lunch!!!) So if you aren't
interested in the installfest you may want to show up for just the TCLUG
meeting.

If you plan on attending, please be sure to register here:
http://www.mn-linux.org/installfest/registration.php

Hope to see you there!
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 07:58:14 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 07:58:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest transport
Message-ID: <bada98250606010558g1959d730gade0afea1984cfd6@mail.gmail.com>

My transport situation suddenly has changed, as my wife will be unable
to come (something else has come up). I myself have neither a car or a
license, but if anyone lives generally south of the river (we live in
Lakeville) if you'd be willing I could meet at your house and carpool
there and back. I'm flexible for times, and will only be bringing one
laptop.

                                      -jordan


From gscottwalters at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 08:58:05 2006
From: gscottwalters at gmail.com (G. Scott Walters)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:58:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <34b4c76d0606010658t645705ffxbda70d3ad94f212e@mail.gmail.com>

In my experience, the one way to really piss off a new boss, is to do
the exact opposite of what he says. If they are interested in spending
Microsoft Dollars on Microsoft Solutions, that's his decision. It's
your decision to provide him potential solutions and cost benefit
analysis of such solutions.

I used to work with a narrow-focused boss who consided Microsoft the
only solution. It took me several years before he finally told me he
wanted some software to monitor bandwidth on our cisco switches. My
obvious solution was MRTG (I conveniently forgot the Windows port).
And considering the price point of MRTG vs other Window's based
solutions, he didn't have much choice but to at least try it. I
installed and configured it, and he loved it. it did exactly what he
wanted and he got the price point he desired, $0.

Be tactful, pick your "battles" carefully. Talk with your Boss, let
him know different things that are happening in the FOSS world. Break
down the years of FUD the Microsoft and other marketing machines have
leveled on him.

More than just my $0.02 worth,

Scott

On 5/31/06, David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu> wrote:
> I just recently began work at a large corporation running Windows from NT to Server '03 and XP Pro for Desktops. As the assistant for one of the Network Engineers I was assigned a project utilizing Norton Ghost Corp. Edition. This large organization has created a soup of hardware components, intergrating Dell, Compaq, and a few HP here and there. My project is to setup a ghosting server/PC manager to quickly image and install PC's. However, there is no two computers alike at one given point to image. To make my story short, I have slightly made a few suggestions/comments to my boss that it would be a wonderful idea to implement Open Source to improve the work station performance and problems for those people who do not require critical business applications. Today, my boss completly shut my idea down stating "I have  used Microsoft thoughout my career and this organization depends on the generosity of Microsoft". :[ "Further more, there is no need to learn other Linux or MAC." Wow! My boss blew me away, seriously, I can no longer take this job serious anymore. The Senior Network Engineers seem to busy for me to even approach regarding this matter. At this point, I am looking for alternatives and I am not stoping to ask for permission since really this is my project. [ok here is my question :P what recommendations can I get regarding the cloning of Window computers without the hassle of using a third party crap?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> David
>
> "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein
>
> "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
-
G. Scott Walters
http://www.apt518.net


From strayf at freeshell.org  Thu Jun  1 10:43:19 2006
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:43:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060601154319.GA23514@callisto-acss.acad.umn.edu>

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 11:56:48PM -0500, David Alanis wrote:
> [...]
> ... ok here is my question :P what
> recommendations can I get regarding the cloning of Window computers without
> the hassle of using a third party crap?
> 

I've used the feather linux live cd (http://featherlinux.berlios.de) for
making and deploying images of windows XP machines. I shrink the filesystem
with ntfsresize and fdisk to get a standard size, then take an image with partimage
and drop it on a samba share over the network. Reverse the sequence to
deploy an image. So far the machines have not been in a domain so I haven't
worried about duplicate SID's, but I think you could use sysprep 
(http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;302577) for that.

You should be able to script most of this, but I haven't gotten around to
it, myself.

You'll still need different images for different hardware configurations.
I'd be happy to hear if someone has a solution for that.

-Steve



From dalan at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 11:04:21 2006
From: dalan at visi.com (dalan at visi.com)
Date: Thu,  1 Jun 2006 11:04:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <20060601154319.GA23514@callisto-acss.acad.umn.edu>
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
	<20060601154319.GA23514@callisto-acss.acad.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1149177861.447f10053bd96@my.visi.com>

I realize this maybe considered blasphemy considering this is a Linux group.
But, Microsoft does have a deployment solution that addresses the issue of
deploying Windows to a variety of hardware. As mentioned before, in order to
install images it is nessecary to have an image that is for the particular
computer type the image will be install on.

I worked at a hospital that used the Microsoft solution with success, it does
mean that there is setup required prior to doing installs. Its not as easy as
just taking an image and deploying it.


Quoting Steve Cayford <strayf at freeshell.org>:

> On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 11:56:48PM -0500, David Alanis wrote:
> > [...]
> > ... ok here is my question :P what
> > recommendations can I get regarding the cloning of Window computers without
> > the hassle of using a third party crap?
> >
>
> I've used the feather linux live cd (http://featherlinux.berlios.de) for
> making and deploying images of windows XP machines. I shrink the filesystem
> with ntfsresize and fdisk to get a standard size, then take an image with
> partimage
> and drop it on a samba share over the network. Reverse the sequence to
> deploy an image. So far the machines have not been in a domain so I haven't
> worried about duplicate SID's, but I think you could use sysprep
> (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;302577) for that.
>
> You should be able to script most of this, but I haven't gotten around to
> it, myself.
>
> You'll still need different images for different hardware configurations.
> I'd be happy to hear if someone has a solution for that.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>





From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jun  1 11:23:45 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 11:23:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu> 
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060601162345.402F31E3A@skuld.wookimus.net>

David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu>  wrote:
> However, there is no two computers alike at one given point to i
> mage.

Symantec sells a product called iCommand that does NOT operate on a
disk-imaging basis for network installation and management.  It
actually run and automates the software package installation process,
partitions disks, etc, in a way similar to Kickstart and now the
debian-installer.  It has many other remote management features that
you would find useful.  Ghost simply doesn't work for disparate
hardware profiles.  Were I given the choice to buy some sort of remote
management and installation application for Windows environments,
iCommand would be my front runner.  Couple that with Active Directory,
and you've got a relatively powerful solution for managing Windows
boxes.

> Wow! My boss blew me away, seriously, I can no longer take this job
> serious anymore.

Don't be surprised or put off, David.  Some people just won't "see the
light".  It sounds like your boss has pretty much laid down the law.
I wouldn't bother challenging him further unless you can find a
company that offers support for whatever software product you find
that does the job.  Whether or not the software is Free Software, Open
Software, Shareware, or Commercial, it needs to do its job well.
That's all your boss really cares about, and I don't blame him.

If your entire site is Windows and Microsoft, then you stick with
Windows and Microsoft-centric solutions.  There are a LOT of software
vendors and solutions for the problem you're trying to solve.  If this
is your project, then it would do well for you to learn about those
solutions.  If you don't like the focus of your job, then start
looking for a new one.  But by all means, don't stall just because you
cannot find a solution that matches your chosen moral compass.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Jun  1 12:05:37 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:05:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Fwd:  Installfest plans] - comments/requests
In-Reply-To: <447EE0B8.1090605@fandre.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEHLCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Clay Fandre
>
> Just a reminder that the TCLUG installfest is this Saturday. And don't
> forget, at noon Dave Christian is going to talk about some cool products
> from rPath. (and there will be pizza for lunch!!!) So if you aren't
> interested in the installfest you may want to show up for just the TCLUG
> meeting.
>
> If you plan on attending, please be sure to register here:
> http://www.mn-linux.org/installfest/registration.php
>
> Hope to see you there!


FWIW, I registered, but did not receive a copy of my entry, and had no comment space to say that I had already arranged for some
help and am looking for more... sometime. I think the registration form should be changed a little to include a note and an option
for getting a copy emailed.


Anybody using these applications?

   Palm-OS Smartphone hotsync (may be a neat way to circumvent/bridge Outlook group calendar stuff)
       including something like Docs-2-Go for searchable text file refs
       also: to use my Samsung I-330 smartphone for HS internet in Linux (OK and free in WinXP)

   Octave, the MatLab workalike

   SPICE for mostly electronic circuit analysis

   VHDL-AMS from U Cincinatti (prefer Verilog-AMS, but can't find a free and open one)

   other techie stuff like stress/strain (eg, Roark), finite element analysis, optical design, etc


BTW.. I live in Apple Valley but won't be coming from or returning home for the InstallFest, so can't offer a ride this time.


Chuck



From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Thu Jun  1 12:20:11 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:20:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] EVDO Cardbus cards that work under linux available in
	metro area
Message-ID: <447F21CB.2030206@mchsi.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi all,
 I was wondering if anyone on the list has an EVDO card that works under
linux. Also, if anyone is available what different companies are
offering options, prices, contracts, etc.

thanks

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx
http://npt.ath.cx/freeshells/

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Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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From andyzib at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 12:31:43 2006
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:31:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020606011031k23446930p515445b7163b692d@mail.gmail.com>

In my opinion, system imaging sucks, espically when you have lots of
different hardware!!!

In my opinion, your best option is to setup Remote Installation
Services on a Windows 2003 server. If you would like an open source
solutions, look into Unattended (http://unattended.sourceforge.net/).
I've never used Unattended myself, but both RIS and Unattended try to
acomplish the same goal. If you're dealing with a number of Windows
clients, I reccomend RIS and Active Directory. Yes, it's a Microsoft
centric solution, but if you know what your doing it works well and
will give you minimum headaches.

Both Ghost and Microsoft's documentation for RIS and system imaging
pushes you tward creating, ick, images using sysprep and risprep.
Ignore sysprep and risprep please! I use Ghost only for crating exact
backups of machines that I'm about to reinstall, or when replacing
harddrives but perserving the existing OS. (ie: bigger hard drive is
needed). System imaging is great for these situations.

For system installation, imaging is bad because the image contains the
OS, all preinstalled software, as well as all the drivers needed for
the hardware. And you need to create an image containing all that for
every different piece of hardware in your enviorment. It's just a huge
waste of space! And because you need to change things like the
computer name, you have to walk through the Windows mini setup for
every computer, manually join the computer to Active Directory, etc.
etc. etc.

With both RIS and Unattended, you can setup a network bootable fully
unattended installtion that will work for every platform. This way,
you have a single OS installation source, a single source for software
installaltion, and a source for divers. The software and driver souce
can be used not only for new installs, but also for installing
software on machines that already have windows installed and just need
updates. And with some work, you can go from bare metal to fully
installed and ready with about 60 seconds of interaction with the
computer.

First, get the Deploy.cab that has been updated for Windows XP Service
Pack 2, Windows Server 2003, and Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005.
You can find this at http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=838080. The
Deploy.cab included on your Windows media may be out of date. The
Deploy.cab contans many helpful resources. You'll mainly be concerned
with deploy.chm (Documentation, very helpful! You will be referencing
this file alot), and setupmgr.exe. setupmgr.exe helps you generate an
answer file to completely automate your Windows installation.

Before getting to the automate step, get Windows security updates out
of the way. Visit http://smithii.com/?q=node/view/12 and download the
script to make slipstreaming all the Windows updates into your image
really easy. The script will copy the XP install files from your
Volume License CD, then start downloading all the updates, and once
all the updates are downloaded it will slipstream them into the
install files. Your install files are now updated with the latest
updates.

Now on your server, you'll use the RIS setup tool to copy this image
to the RIS server. This part is fairly painless.

Now for the fun stuff. Use setupmgr.exe to generate your first answer
file. Select RIS, fill out infomation, etc. Once you have a .sif file,
create a copy. Edit your copy with your favorite text editor. Now go
back and reference deploy.chm to understand your answer file. There
are a few options that you will want to add:

For example, I have a unattended file for a Dell GX620. I've added the
following to my [Unattended] section:

[Unattended]
    DriverSigningPolicy = Ignore
    OemPreinstall=Yes
    OemPnpDriversPath =
Drivers\GX620\Audio;\Drivers\GX620\NIC;\Drivers\GX620\Chipset
    OverwriteOemFilesOnUpgrade=No

[GuiRunOnce]
    Command0=C:\Drivers\GX620\GX620.bat

Read through the Unattended install section in the chm file. Look over
all the options. You'll find useful stuff, and it's well worth your
time.

Now that you've been introduced to the unattended file a bit, you will
need to go about adding drivers to your RIS image. For starters, read
this KB article:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315279/en-us

You may notice I've also added other drivers paths to my unattended
answer file. To do this, go to
\\servername\REMINST\Setup\English\Images\ImageFolder.

In ImageFolder (i386 will be in ImageFolder) create a directory named
$oem$. Under $oem$, create a folder name $1. Under $1, create a folder
named Drivers. Under my Drivers folder, I have a Scripts folder, and
then a folder for each hardware platform I support with RIS. Currenty
I'm setup for Dell GX260, GX270, GX280, and GX620. Earlier Dell
Optiplex hardware is fully supported by the default drivers in Windows
XP, so I also have a non machine specific install for these
computers.I have a different unattended answer file for each hardware,
but the only difference is the driver paths defined under [Unattended]
and the Run Once script.

The run once script does the finishing touches: It fires off unattened
installations for Anti Virus software, Microsoft Office, Java, Citrix
Client, an Intel video driver that I haven't gotten to work durring
the RIS install, and probally a few things I've forgotten. Once all
the installs are done, it reboots the sytem. (I disabled rebooting in
any automated software installs)

The simple bat script looks like this:
REM Map a network drive
start /wait net use I: \\server\Software "" /user:guest /persistent:no

REM Install the stupid Intel Video Driver that doesn't work with RIS.
start /wait %SystemDrive%\Drivers\GX620\Video\Setup.exe -32x1024x768x72 -s

REM Install Office 2003
start /wait I:\MS_Office\2003\CD\setup.exe /qb-

REM etc etc etc....

REM Reboot! :)
%windir%\System32\shutdown.exe -r -m \\%computername% -t 60 -c "Post
Install Reboot" -f

This all seems like alot of work, but the end result is I turn on any
computer, select the network boot option, follow a few prompts, and
start the install, and walk away. From boot to install setup takes
about 60 seconds, and the entire install process takes 30-90. After
the 60 seconds needed to start the install, there is nothing more that
needs doing.

How is this not off topic? Well I mentioned Unattended as an
alternative to RIS. :D

I've got a number of other web links that may be helpful, though my
bookmarks are totally unorganized so I just pulled the important ones.
I learned all this with google and the Microsoft knowledge base
searches, so everything you need is out there.

Hope this was helpful...

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 12:43:32 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:43:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Fwd: Installfest plans] - comments/requests
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEHLCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <447EE0B8.1090605@fandre.com>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEHLCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <bada98250606011043n34e7a185sc83ae7a44019b936@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks anyway Chuck, and no, I'm not familiar with those applications.
Sorry, we're mutually of no assistance to each other today *laughs*.
God bless

                            -jordan

On 6/1/06, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Clay Fandre
> >
> > Just a reminder that the TCLUG installfest is this Saturday. And don't
> > forget, at noon Dave Christian is going to talk about some cool products
> > from rPath. (and there will be pizza for lunch!!!) So if you aren't
> > interested in the installfest you may want to show up for just the TCLUG
> > meeting.
> >
> > If you plan on attending, please be sure to register here:
> > http://www.mn-linux.org/installfest/registration.php
> >
> > Hope to see you there!
>
>
> FWIW, I registered, but did not receive a copy of my entry, and had no comment space to say that I had already arranged for some
> help and am looking for more... sometime. I think the registration form should be changed a little to include a note and an option
> for getting a copy emailed.
>
>
> Anybody using these applications?
>
>    Palm-OS Smartphone hotsync (may be a neat way to circumvent/bridge Outlook group calendar stuff)
>        including something like Docs-2-Go for searchable text file refs
>        also: to use my Samsung I-330 smartphone for HS internet in Linux (OK and free in WinXP)
>
>    Octave, the MatLab workalike
>
>    SPICE for mostly electronic circuit analysis
>
>    VHDL-AMS from U Cincinatti (prefer Verilog-AMS, but can't find a free and open one)
>
>    other techie stuff like stress/strain (eg, Roark), finite element analysis, optical design, etc
>
>
> BTW.. I live in Apple Valley but won't be coming from or returning home for the InstallFest, so can't offer a ride this time.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 12:59:46 2006
From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:59:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Installfest / June meeting
In-Reply-To: <446CB9EF.20809@fandre.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF3FF@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<446CB9EF.20809@fandre.com>
Message-ID: <7d3948c70606011059w7af93580m68adc1ebeb9527a1@mail.gmail.com>

This systm episode did clear some things up.  I'm glad you mentioned
it. So are you bringing your mythtv box?


On 5/18/06, Clayton Fandre <clay at fandre.com> wrote:
> OK. I will try to put together a "mini Mythtv Howto". I do have Systm
> episode 2 on my Mythbox so maybe I'll just play that instead and just do
> a Q&A session afterwards.
>
> http://revision3.com/systm/mythtv/


From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Thu Jun  1 14:02:49 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:02:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
Message-ID: <2006060119024935d220dfd9@mail.smumn.edu>

Thank you for the comments/suggestions. As we speak I am trying to deploy/create an image from two similiar PCs. Yet I am still trying to compehend the process to having numerous images and playing the guessing game to which one will work best. I have obtained sysprep from Microsoft and will test it out today to see how it can facilitate my problem.

P.S. 

I know this is a Linux forum, however, I asked with the intention to received suggestions to other non proprietary cloning applications/suggestions/experiences in a large infrastructure.

Thank you,


David

"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 14:21:36 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:21:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060119024935d220dfd9@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006060119024935d220dfd9@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <447F3E40.5010409@gmail.com>

If you have (or expect to have) any hyperthreaded or multi-core systems, 
make sure you create the initial image on one of those machines - the 
multi-processor windows kernel runs fine with no real performance 
penalty on a single processor system - but if you do the initial install 
on a single processor (non-hyperthreaded) system it will use the single 
cpu kernel.  When that image is deployed to a multiprocessor machine, 
you will only be able to see a single processor.  To my knowledge, you 
can't change the kernel without reinstalling windows.

They did this to me when I got my last new system... took forever to 
figure out why on earth almost every diagnostic tool reported that my 
system was hyperthreaded, but windows refused to show two CPU graphs, or 
give me the performance advantage that I expected from a hyperthreaded 
system...

Dan

-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From bhartm at visi.com  Thu Jun  1 18:00:50 2006
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 18:00:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
Message-ID: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>

Hi! 
I've been using fluxbox for a couple of years.  I like it, but I'm itchy 
to try something else.  Some things in fb "don't work" and the basic DIY 
support/community is so-so.  Gnome makes no sense to me and full-blown 
KDE is too much of a pig after using fluxbox. 
I'm asking the list because an sf search on "window manager" gives *3379 
hits.  *And the first few pages are indeed window managers.  I suppose 
I'll go look at their home pages, but I'd appreciate any suggestions or 
capsule reviews from luggers in the TC.  (The candidate must play nice 
with kdelibs so I can Rosegarden and K3b. )
Thanks! Have a great day!
Bob!*
*


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jun  1 18:16:38 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:16:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
References: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20060601231637.GX7905@iucha.net>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:00:50PM -0500, Bob Hartmann wrote:
> I've been using fluxbox for a couple of years.  I like it, but I'm itchy 
> to try something else.  Some things in fb "don't work" and the basic DIY 
> support/community is so-so.  Gnome makes no sense to me and full-blown 
> KDE is too much of a pig after using fluxbox. 
> I'm asking the list because an sf search on "window manager" gives *3379 
> hits.  *And the first few pages are indeed window managers.  I suppose 
> I'll go look at their home pages, but I'd appreciate any suggestions or 
> capsule reviews from luggers in the TC.  (The candidate must play nice 
> with kdelibs so I can Rosegarden and K3b. )

icewm is my personal choice for lower end machines.

Another option might we wmii, if you prefer using the mouse less - it
has some learning curve, but if you have a big screen is seems to work
great.

I have heard good things about XFCE, but it looks to CDEish for my
taste. Give it (and XUbuntu) a try.

Debian (and probably Ubuntu) has all of them. I don't know about Fedora
or OpenSuse.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
There was a typo, but on the wrong page.
   -- Vipin Kumar
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From nate at refried.org  Thu Jun  1 19:53:26 2006
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 19:53:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <20060601231637.GX7905@iucha.net>
References: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com> <20060601231637.GX7905@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <20060602005326.GA15198@refried.org>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:16:38PM -0500, Florin Iucha wrote:
> icewm is my personal choice for lower end machines.

I use icewm exclusively, even on my dual x86_64 system at work.  My
reasons for using are:

1. I can change workspaces and move windows between workspaces all with
   the keyboard.  C+A+# switches to workspace #, add shift moves the
   current window along too.

2. C+A+Space brings up a command line in the task bar that is very
   useful for starting an editor or displaying a man page.

3. It doesn't depend on any of the Gnome or KDE bloat. :)

4. C+A+S+F10 maximizes a window vertically, which is a great trick for
   terminals and editors.

Nate


From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Thu Jun  1 21:49:52 2006
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 21:49:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
References: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
Message-ID: <447FA750.3080204@cdf123.net>

Bob Hartmann wrote:
> Hi! 
> I've been using fluxbox for a couple of years.  I like it, but I'm itchy 
> to try something else.  Some things in fb "don't work" and the basic DIY 
> support/community is so-so.  Gnome makes no sense to me and full-blown 
> KDE is too much of a pig after using fluxbox. 
> I'm asking the list because an sf search on "window manager" gives *3379 
> hits.  *And the first few pages are indeed window managers.  I suppose 
> I'll go look at their home pages, but I'd appreciate any suggestions or 
> capsule reviews from luggers in the TC.  (The candidate must play nice 
> with kdelibs so I can Rosegarden and K3b. )
> Thanks! Have a great day!
> Bob!*
> *

What?!?!  Leaving the fluxbox clan?!

Alas, I've felt the same myself.  I run gentoo so WMs are easy to toss 
in and out, and a few months ago I tested the waters in a few and I 
don't think I'll be doing that again any time soon.

I don't know how you have fluxbox set up, but I've customized mine a 
lot.  My favorite features are the middle click joining of windows, and 
the fluxbox keys file.  I know you can get the keys setup in other WMs, 
but I don't know of any that can join windows like fluxbox can.

One of the replies here mentioned icewm for the switching desktops with 
the keyboard.  I use fluxbox's keys file along with 3ddesktop to 
accomplish the same thing with a little bit of flair.  If you have a 
decent GPU, install 3ddesktop and add these lines to your 
~/.fluxbox/keys file:

Mod1 KP_6 :ExecCommand /usr/bin/3ddesk --gotoright --nozoom
Mod1 Right :ExecCommand /usr/bin/3ddesk --gotoright --nozoom
Mod1 KP_4 :ExecCommand /usr/bin/3ddesk --gotoleft --nozoom
Mod1 Left :ExecCommand /usr/bin/3ddesk --gotoleft --nozoom
Mod1 Down :ExecCommand /usr/bin/3ddesk --view=carousel

Then your desktops are only and 'Alt+[Arrow]' away.  This also works 
great for music too:

Shift Mod1 Right :ExecCommand /usr/bin/amarok -f
Shift Mod1 Left :ExecCommand /usr/bin/amarok -r
Shift Mod1 Up :ExecCommand /usr/bin/amixer -c 0 set Master,0 5%+
Shift Mod1 Down :ExecCommand /usr/bin/amixer -c 0 set Master,0 5%-

You can modify those easy for xmms or aumix too.  There's even a great 
guide for having transparency here
http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Xorg_X11_and_Transparency

I've searched through a lot of light weight WMs but so far none of them 
have really caught hold.  The only exception I think is enlightenment 
e17.  But I don't think I'd count that as light weight anymore, though 
it is amazing the eye candy they've put in with so little cpu usage. 
Plus the rate they've been developing, I'll be playing duke nukem 
forever on my cell phone before it hits stable.  :(

A few interesting ones I've found have been metisse, and ratpoison. 
http://insitu.lri.fr/metisse/
http://insitu.lri.fr/~roussel/videos/metisse/metisse/metisse.mov
http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/

Though I don't think they're really what you're looking for.  As far as 
searching for new ones, I'd use this list (being a gentoo user of course)
http://packages.gentoo.org/packages/?category=x11-wm
But I'm willing to bet that a lot of the 3379 results are either still 
in development, or only have a hand full of users.

Just my $.02,
Chris Frederick


From jack at jacku.com  Thu Jun  1 23:28:05 2006
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 23:28:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <2006060119024935d220dfd9@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006060119024935d220dfd9@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <200606012328.06201.jack@jacku.com>

On Thursday 01 June 2006 2:02 pm, David Alanis wrote:
> Thank you for the comments/suggestions. As we speak I am trying to
> deploy/create an image from two similiar PCs. Yet I am still trying to
> compehend the process to having numerous images and playing the guessing
> game to which one will work best. I have obtained sysprep from Microsoft
> and will test it out today to see how it can facilitate my problem.
>
> P.S.
>
> I know this is a Linux forum, however, I asked with the intention to
> received suggestions to other non proprietary cloning
> applications/suggestions/experiences in a large infrastructure.
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> David

Hi David,

First let me say that I agree with the other advise you've been given. At this 
point you need to do what has been asked of you. At a later date you can 
approach your management again with alternative ideas. 
[Creaking rocking chair sound in the background.]
A long time ago (or so it seems) an IT manager was asked why he bought a set 
of IBM PS/2s instead of the bright shiny Compaq's that were faster and 
cheaper? His answer "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." Ten years later 
his replacement was asked why she continued to by Compaq's with their 
non-standard parts and eccentricities instead of the Dell's that were faster 
and cheaper? ...

You can figure out the rest of this story I'm sure.

Now back to your question. A story about the Trinity Rescue CD came across 
NewsForge a couple of weeks ago. One thing it claims to be able to do is 
clone partitions including Windows OS partitions. More info at:
http://trinityhome.org/trk/

Jack

-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Fri Jun  2 04:25:26 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 04:25:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
Message-ID: <2006060209252673d220f385@mail.smumn.edu>

List:

Thank you for the advice it certainly put fresh perspective on staying focused with my on-going project.

One of the reasons I posted was to see how some of you were using this technology (Ghost Enterprise) and others to clone Window PCs. Since posting, I have followed some of the ideas I have gathered through the responses mail in-box.

Respectively, we are a Windows house, and I shy away from the ideal to  have one million XP installs just because we can have one million XP installs! As all corporations slowly upgrade to newer hardware older hardware begins storing and ultimately forgotten. Well, in my case our department does a lot of research and we are fortunate to use this older hardware. The pain comes in creating projects with the same OS which never really produces any interesting. In short, trying new recipes with the same flavoring! :}

With the deadline approaching I have made great progress and look to have a working cloning system real soon. 

Thanks for the advice,

David   
>First let me say that I agree with the other advise you've been given. At this
>point you need to do what has been asked of you. At a later date you can
>approach your management again with alternative ideas.
>[Creaking rocking chair sound in the background.]
>A long time ago (or so it seems) an IT manager was asked why he bought a set
>of IBM PS/2s instead of the bright shiny Compaq's that were faster and
>cheaper? His answer "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." Ten years later
>his replacement was asked why she continued to by Compaq's with their
>non-standard parts and eccentricities instead of the Dell's that were faster
>and cheaper? ...
>
>You can figure out the rest of this story I'm sure.
>
>Now back to your question. A story about the Trinity Rescue CD came across
>Newsforge a couple of weeks ago. One thing it claims to be able to do is
>clone partitions including Windows OS partitions. More info at:
>http://trinityhome.org/trk/
>
>Jack
>
>--
>Jack Ungerleider
>jack at jacku.com
>http://www.jacku.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Jun  2 07:41:06 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 07:41:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking suggestions...
In-Reply-To: <17021387.1149183475403.JavaMail.root@sniper34>
References: <2006060104564869d220cb8f@mail.smumn.edu>
	<17021387.1149183475403.JavaMail.root@sniper34>
Message-ID: <200606020741.07925.jus@krytosvirus.com>

http://nocmonkey.psoft.net/

On Thursday 01 June 2006 12:31 pm, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:
> In my opinion, system imaging sucks, espically when you have lots of
> different hardware!!!
>
> In my opinion, your best option is to setup Remote Installation
> Services on a Windows 2003 server. If you would like an open source
> solutions, look into Unattended (http://unattended.sourceforge.net/).
> I've never used Unattended myself, but both RIS and Unattended try to
> acomplish the same goal. If you're dealing with a number of Windows
> clients, I reccomend RIS and Active Directory. Yes, it's a Microsoft
> centric solution, but if you know what your doing it works well and
> will give you minimum headaches.
>
> Both Ghost and Microsoft's documentation for RIS and system imaging
> pushes you tward creating, ick, images using sysprep and risprep.
> Ignore sysprep and risprep please! I use Ghost only for crating exact
> backups of machines that I'm about to reinstall, or when replacing
> harddrives but perserving the existing OS. (ie: bigger hard drive is
> needed). System imaging is great for these situations.
>
> For system installation, imaging is bad because the image contains the
> OS, all preinstalled software, as well as all the drivers needed for
> the hardware. And you need to create an image containing all that for
> every different piece of hardware in your enviorment. It's just a huge
> waste of space! And because you need to change things like the
> computer name, you have to walk through the Windows mini setup for
> every computer, manually join the computer to Active Directory, etc.
> etc. etc.
>
> With both RIS and Unattended, you can setup a network bootable fully
> unattended installtion that will work for every platform. This way,
> you have a single OS installation source, a single source for software
> installaltion, and a source for divers. The software and driver souce
> can be used not only for new installs, but also for installing
> software on machines that already have windows installed and just need
> updates. And with some work, you can go from bare metal to fully
> installed and ready with about 60 seconds of interaction with the
> computer.
>
> First, get the Deploy.cab that has been updated for Windows XP Service
> Pack 2, Windows Server 2003, and Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005.
> You can find this at http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=838080. The
> Deploy.cab included on your Windows media may be out of date. The
> Deploy.cab contans many helpful resources. You'll mainly be concerned
> with deploy.chm (Documentation, very helpful! You will be referencing
> this file alot), and setupmgr.exe. setupmgr.exe helps you generate an
> answer file to completely automate your Windows installation.
>
> Before getting to the automate step, get Windows security updates out
> of the way. Visit http://smithii.com/?q=node/view/12 and download the
> script to make slipstreaming all the Windows updates into your image
> really easy. The script will copy the XP install files from your
> Volume License CD, then start downloading all the updates, and once
> all the updates are downloaded it will slipstream them into the
> install files. Your install files are now updated with the latest
> updates.
>
> Now on your server, you'll use the RIS setup tool to copy this image
> to the RIS server. This part is fairly painless.
>
> Now for the fun stuff. Use setupmgr.exe to generate your first answer
> file. Select RIS, fill out infomation, etc. Once you have a .sif file,
> create a copy. Edit your copy with your favorite text editor. Now go
> back and reference deploy.chm to understand your answer file. There
> are a few options that you will want to add:
>
> For example, I have a unattended file for a Dell GX620. I've added the
> following to my [Unattended] section:
>
> [Unattended]
>     DriverSigningPolicy = Ignore
>     OemPreinstall=Yes
>     OemPnpDriversPath =
> Drivers\GX620\Audio;\Drivers\GX620\NIC;\Drivers\GX620\Chipset
>     OverwriteOemFilesOnUpgrade=No
>
> [GuiRunOnce]
>     Command0=C:\Drivers\GX620\GX620.bat
>
> Read through the Unattended install section in the chm file. Look over
> all the options. You'll find useful stuff, and it's well worth your
> time.
>
> Now that you've been introduced to the unattended file a bit, you will
> need to go about adding drivers to your RIS image. For starters, read
> this KB article:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315279/en-us
>
> You may notice I've also added other drivers paths to my unattended
> answer file. To do this, go to
> \\servername\REMINST\Setup\English\Images\ImageFolder.
>
> In ImageFolder (i386 will be in ImageFolder) create a directory named
> $oem$. Under $oem$, create a folder name $1. Under $1, create a folder
> named Drivers. Under my Drivers folder, I have a Scripts folder, and
> then a folder for each hardware platform I support with RIS. Currenty
> I'm setup for Dell GX260, GX270, GX280, and GX620. Earlier Dell
> Optiplex hardware is fully supported by the default drivers in Windows
> XP, so I also have a non machine specific install for these
> computers.I have a different unattended answer file for each hardware,
> but the only difference is the driver paths defined under [Unattended]
> and the Run Once script.
>
> The run once script does the finishing touches: It fires off unattened
> installations for Anti Virus software, Microsoft Office, Java, Citrix
> Client, an Intel video driver that I haven't gotten to work durring
> the RIS install, and probally a few things I've forgotten. Once all
> the installs are done, it reboots the sytem. (I disabled rebooting in
> any automated software installs)
>
> The simple bat script looks like this:
> REM Map a network drive
> start /wait net use I: \\server\Software "" /user:guest /persistent:no
>
> REM Install the stupid Intel Video Driver that doesn't work with RIS.
> start /wait %SystemDrive%\Drivers\GX620\Video\Setup.exe -32x1024x768x72 -s
>
> REM Install Office 2003
> start /wait I:\MS_Office\2003\CD\setup.exe /qb-
>
> REM etc etc etc....
>
> REM Reboot! :)
> %windir%\System32\shutdown.exe -r -m \\%computername% -t 60 -c "Post
> Install Reboot" -f
>
> This all seems like alot of work, but the end result is I turn on any
> computer, select the network boot option, follow a few prompts, and
> start the install, and walk away. From boot to install setup takes
> about 60 seconds, and the entire install process takes 30-90. After
> the 60 seconds needed to start the install, there is nothing more that
> needs doing.
>
> How is this not off topic? Well I mentioned Unattended as an
> alternative to RIS. :D
>
> I've got a number of other web links that may be helpful, though my
> bookmarks are totally unorganized so I just pulled the important ones.
> I learned all this with google and the Microsoft knowledge base
> searches, so everything you need is out there.
>
> Hope this was helpful...


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jun  2 09:21:56 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 09:21:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] [Fwd:  Installfest plans] - comments/requests
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEHLCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEHLCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606020918580.5682@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Anybody using these applications?
>
>   Octave, the MatLab workalike


Yes.  Octave is great.  The biggest difference is probably in the 
graphics.  Octave can work with external programs, usually gnuplot, but 
doesn't have built-in graphics.  MATLAB handle graphics are better.  That 
said, I can get a lot of nice graphics out of Octave/gnuplot.

A big advantage for Octave is that all the toolboxes are free.  With 
MATLAB you have to pay extra for the extras.

Mike


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Fri Jun  2 10:42:44 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 10:42:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] MAME?
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4B8@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Anyone know about MAME?  One of my co-workers is interested, and is thinking about coming to the installfest.  If I could say someone who's done it will be at the installfest, he'd be more interested in coming.

Wayne Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
MQSoftware, Inc.
1660 S Highway 100
Minneapolis, MN 55416
(952) 345-8628



From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jun  2 14:14:45 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 14:14:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Fwd:  Installfest plans] - comments/requests
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606020918580.5682@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEHPCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Miller [mailto:mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 9:22 AM
>
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2006, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > Anybody using these applications?
> >
> >   Octave, the MatLab workalike
>
>
> Yes.  Octave is great.  The biggest difference is probably in the
> graphics.  Octave can work with external programs, usually
> gnuplot, but
> doesn't have built-in graphics.  MATLAB handle graphics are
> better.  That
> said, I can get a lot of nice graphics out of Octave/gnuplot.
>
> A big advantage for Octave is that all the toolboxes are free.  With
> MATLAB you have to pay extra for the extras.
>
> Mike


Thanks, Mike.  I'll contact you about Octave setups after I get my
laptop updated.

Chuck



From admin at lctn.org  Fri Jun  2 15:25:47 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 15:25:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems
Message-ID: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>

I have a Centos 4.2 server with Apache 2. My original problem was that
Aliases did not work. You can browse to a domain, and enter a configured
alias like, domainname/aliasname, and it will display the index page of
the domain without errors, but never complain about the alias. Actually,
you can enter anything after the domain name and not get a 404 response.

Now, I am finding that if I add a new virtual domain .conf file
in /etc/httpd/conf.d it over-rides what is already there, so when
browsing to  a.domain.com and b.domain.com, you get b.domain.com. If I
remove the new b.domain.com conf file, a.domain.com works like it
should.

I am sure it a simple omission or addition in httpd.conf, but I haven't
figured it out.






From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 15:29:42 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:29:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Dapper Drake 'review'
Message-ID: <bada98250606021329s7cdcd4fdj763e395e750765f5@mail.gmail.com>

of sorts at http://hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com/. Please enjoy.

                      -jordan


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Fri Jun  2 15:39:32 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 15:39:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4C0@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

The first file read in the conf.d becomes the "default" virtual host, so you might need something like:
aaa-default.conf


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Raymond Norton
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 3:26 PM
To: TCLUG List
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems


I have a Centos 4.2 server with Apache 2. My original problem was that
Aliases did not work. You can browse to a domain, and enter a configured
alias like, domainname/aliasname, and it will display the index page of
the domain without errors, but never complain about the alias. Actually,
you can enter anything after the domain name and not get a 404 response.

Now, I am finding that if I add a new virtual domain .conf file
in /etc/httpd/conf.d it over-rides what is already there, so when
browsing to  a.domain.com and b.domain.com, you get b.domain.com. If I
remove the new b.domain.com conf file, a.domain.com works like it
should.

I am sure it a simple omission or addition in httpd.conf, but I haven't
figured it out.





_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From duff0097 at umn.edu  Fri Jun  2 17:02:55 2006
From: duff0097 at umn.edu (Bryan Duff)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:02:55 CDT
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
Message-ID: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu>

After being a long time fluxbox user I moved to Enlightenment DR17.  It's
still in development, but if you're adventurous it's worth a shot:

http://www.enlightenment.org/Enlightenment/DR17/

It has improved quite a bit since I started using it.

-Bryan

On 1 Jun 2006, Bob Hartmann wrote:
> Hi! 
> I've been using fluxbox for a couple of years.  I like it, but I'm itchy 
> to try something else.  Some things in fb "don't work" and the basic DIY 
> support/community is so-so.  Gnome makes no sense to me and full-blown 
> KDE is too much of a pig after using fluxbox. 
> I'm asking the list because an sf search on "window manager" gives *3379 
> hits.  *And the first few pages are indeed window managers.  I suppose 
> I'll go look at their home pages, but I'd appreciate any suggestions or 
> capsule reviews from luggers in the TC.  (The candidate must play nice 
> with kdelibs so I can Rosegarden and K3b. )
> Thanks! Have a great day!
> Bob!*
> *
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 




From brockn at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:10:07 2006
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:10:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems
In-Reply-To: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
References: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
Message-ID: <741dcbb80606021510s54642173u9e7ca90a9246a78d@mail.gmail.com>

Your putting the new virtual hosts in:

/etc/apache2/sites-available

and then symlinking them from:

/etc/apache2/sites-enabled

Correct?

Brock

On 6/2/06, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> I have a Centos 4.2 server with Apache 2. My original problem was that
> Aliases did not work. You can browse to a domain, and enter a configured
> alias like, domainname/aliasname, and it will display the index page of
> the domain without errors, but never complain about the alias. Actually,
> you can enter anything after the domain name and not get a 404 response.
>
> Now, I am finding that if I add a new virtual domain .conf file
> in /etc/httpd/conf.d it over-rides what is already there, so when
> browsing to  a.domain.com and b.domain.com, you get b.domain.com. If I
> remove the new b.domain.com conf file, a.domain.com works like it
> should.
>
> I am sure it a simple omission or addition in httpd.conf, but I haven't
> figured it out.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From auditodd at comcast.net  Fri Jun  2 17:20:25 2006
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:20:25 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] MAME?
Message-ID: <060220062220.15125.4480B9A90008501200003B1522058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

About all that I know is that there is a Knoppix-MAME version.
Haven't downloaded or tried it yet......

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From chewie at wookimus.net  Fri Jun  2 17:32:11 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:32:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu> 
References: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>

Bryan Duff <duff0097 at umn.edu>  wrote:
> After being a long time fluxbox user I moved to Enlightenment DR17.  It's
> still in development, but if you're adventurous it's worth a shot:

<troll>
Enlightenment has always been in development.
</troll>
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:45:27 2006
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 17:45:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu>
	<20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020606021545m51593dc8n6c0133a21ed74329@mail.gmail.com>

> <troll>
> Enlightenment has always been in development.
> </troll>

I don't think a statement qualifies as trolling if it's true. :-)


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From admin at lctn.org  Fri Jun  2 18:09:09 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:09:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems
In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80606021510s54642173u9e7ca90a9246a78d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
	<741dcbb80606021510s54642173u9e7ca90a9246a78d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46411.204.212.34.10.1149289749.squirrel@lctn.org>


> Your putting the new virtual hosts in:
>
> /etc/apache2/sites-available
>
> and then symlinking them from:
>
> /etc/apache2/sites-enabled
>
> Correct?

No, they are all in /etc/httpd/conf.d. There is something to what Wayne
said, because moodle.domain worked till I added kt.domain. Now you get is
kt.domain when you go to moodel.domain.


From scotjenkins at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:27:32 2006
From: scotjenkins at gmail.com (Scot Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:27:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Applying selective debian updates
Message-ID: <a22a1f920606021627p609db8d3v5dd495a18d30a7f0@mail.gmail.com>

A quick question for all the Debian gurus:

I have an older woody system that needs to be updated to sarge but
it's running a lot of services, ie, potential to break lots of stuff.

"apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" will update all packages.  I know
I can download individual pkgs and upgrade them via "dpkg -i
<pkgname>" but I'd prefer to use apt to handle any dependencies.

Is there a way to selectively apply updates via apt?

What I want is something like this:

    apt-get update pkg_a

which would only upgrade pkg_a and it's dependencies.
I didn't find anything in the apt man page that indicates apt supports
this type of action.

ideas?

Thanks,
scot


From silwenae at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:30:41 2006
From: silwenae at gmail.com (Paul Cutler)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 18:30:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] MAME?
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4B8@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4B8@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0606021630j66ccf00et26554755fc18fcda@mail.gmail.com>

I know a little - I haven't messed with it in a few years as I have it
working on my hacked Xbox, which is a little more fun than a PC.  I'd be
happy to help someone if they have questions.

Building a MAME cabinet and machine is my next project after I finish my
basement and get my home theater PC running.

--Paul

On 6/2/06, Wayne Johnson <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone know about MAME?  One of my co-workers is interested, and is
> thinking about coming to the installfest.  If I could say someone who's done
> it will be at the installfest, he'd be more interested in coming.
>
> Wayne Johnson
> Senior Software Engineer
> MQSoftware, Inc.
> 1660 S Highway 100
> Minneapolis, MN 55416
> (952) 345-8628
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From bhartm at visi.com  Fri Jun  2 18:35:53 2006
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:35:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020606021545m51593dc8n6c0133a21ed74329@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu>	<20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<e3a54b020606021545m51593dc8n6c0133a21ed74329@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4480CB59.5080006@visi.com>

Noice. 
I'm running "E" now for about a half-hour.  Now digging in to why some 
things "Don't Work."  geh.  Maybe I'll try MS-Windows next...  that 
/always/ works.   ;-1    I've heard good things about win98 and ME.
Seriously, tho, thanks to all for chiming in.  I might just settle on 
-maybe-  -pause,pause--  fluxbox.
Enlightenment looks like fun, anyway. 
Happy Friday!  I'm busy.
Bob

>><troll>
>>Enlightenment has always been in development.
>></troll>
>>    
>>
>
>I don't think a statement qualifies as trolling if it's true. :-)
>
>
>  
>


From jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 19:03:22 2006
From: jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com (Jeff Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:03:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Applying selective debian updates
In-Reply-To: <a22a1f920606021627p609db8d3v5dd495a18d30a7f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22a1f920606021627p609db8d3v5dd495a18d30a7f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d6c82530606021703i33872a10g96ae132baf947f5a@mail.gmail.com>

The file /etc/apt/preferences allows you to only update certain packages by
assigning a value to a version or repository.  The concept is quite
confusing but manageable if you read up on "man apt_preferences" and try to
follow the examples.

I think there are other ways to use aptitude and apt to hold on some updates
and apply the one you want but usually you will want to keep the settings
over some period of time.

          The following record assigns a low priority to all package
versions
          belonging to any distribution whose Archive name is "unstable".

          Package: *
          Pin: release a=unstable
          Pin-Priority: 50

          The following record assigns a high priority to all package
versions
          belonging to any release whose Archive name is  "stable"  and
whose
          release Version number is "3.0".

          Package: *
          Pin: release a=stable, v=3.0
          Pin-Priority: 500


-- 
Jeff Rasmussen
GPG public key 0x9686C12F
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From strayf at freeshell.org  Fri Jun  2 19:09:24 2006
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 19:09:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Applying selective debian updates
In-Reply-To: <a22a1f920606021627p609db8d3v5dd495a18d30a7f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a22a1f920606021627p609db8d3v5dd495a18d30a7f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060603000924.GA29269@crito>

It seems to work for me to just say "apt-get install x" and then let it figure out
that it's really doing an upgrade.

Or how about using aptitude or dselect? 

You can also mark the ones you don't want to upgrade as "held" or use
pinning to keep them at a certain version, then use apt-get to upgrade the
rest. 

-Steve

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 06:27:32PM -0500, Scot Jenkins wrote:
> A quick question for all the Debian gurus:
> 
> I have an older woody system that needs to be updated to sarge but
> it's running a lot of services, ie, potential to break lots of stuff.
> 
> "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" will update all packages.  I know
> I can download individual pkgs and upgrade them via "dpkg -i
> <pkgname>" but I'd prefer to use apt to handle any dependencies.
> 
> Is there a way to selectively apply updates via apt?
> 
> What I want is something like this:
> 
>     apt-get update pkg_a
> 
> which would only upgrade pkg_a and it's dependencies.
> I didn't find anything in the apt man page that indicates apt supports
> this type of action.
> 
> ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> scot
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jun  2 20:34:23 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 20:34:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <200606022202.k52M2tYG030015@saturn.software.umn.edu>
	<20060602223211.7C1932446@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <20060603013423.GD7905@iucha.net>

On Fri, Jun 02, 2006 at 05:32:11PM -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> Bryan Duff <duff0097 at umn.edu>  wrote:
> > After being a long time fluxbox user I moved to Enlightenment DR17.  It's
> > still in development, but if you're adventurous it's worth a shot:
> 
> <troll>
> Enlightenment has always been in development.
> </troll>

Nah, they just became envious of Tex versions growing up to pi and
decided they can do better than Knuth - stop releasing altogether!

florin

-- 
There was a typo, but on the wrong page.
   -- Vipin Kumar
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From tj at kewlness.net  Fri Jun  2 22:47:29 2006
From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:47:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] lightweight WM
In-Reply-To: <mailman.190.1149298748.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.190.1149298748.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <44810651.6050905@kewlness.net>

My favorite is probably FVWM2.  I know that's not a popular choice.  I 
have my reasons:
   1. Everything can be scripted - down to mouse clicks
    2. You can interface it with Perl and GTK
    3. Can be made to look and act like almost anything

nuff said



From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 10:05:37 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:05:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will be late
Message-ID: <bada98250606030805l3bd97d3di2d470c6eb5ff5da6@mail.gmail.com>

I'll come to the installfest after my wife gets back, so we'll be
there probably only a couple hours this afternoon.

I'd really really like to have VNC through SSH working _before_ we
leave so that I can try some things on my desktop from the
installfest, keeping it at my house on my network. (i will use it
after the installfest too, it's not simply a one-off thing)

If anyone is able to assist with that a bit, I'm online on Google Talk
and on Freenode at #tclug

You can also drop me an email. Hope all is well!

                          -jordan


From brockn at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 10:43:14 2006
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 10:43:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] apache conf problems
In-Reply-To: <46411.204.212.34.10.1149289749.squirrel@lctn.org>
References: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
	<741dcbb80606021510s54642173u9e7ca90a9246a78d@mail.gmail.com>
	<46411.204.212.34.10.1149289749.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <741dcbb80606030843w4baffd0dp935d9dfb0100dc9c@mail.gmail.com>

Never mind.... I was thinking my box was CentOS because it is at my
workplace, but I forgot my personal is ubuntu.. Sorry!

Brock

On 6/2/06, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
>
> > Your putting the new virtual hosts in:
> >
> > /etc/apache2/sites-available
> >
> > and then symlinking them from:
> >
> > /etc/apache2/sites-enabled
> >
> > Correct?
>
> No, they are all in /etc/httpd/conf.d. There is something to what Wayne
> said, because moodle.domain worked till I added kt.domain. Now you get is
> kt.domain when you go to moodel.domain.
>


From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 12:12:31 2006
From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 12:12:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] won't make it!
Message-ID: <7d3948c70606031012g5184b2b8x9311ed85a33e3254@mail.gmail.com>

dang!  and I wanted to see a working mythtv in HDTV too!
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 15:04:52 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VNC tunneling through SSH
Message-ID: <bada98250606031304x64c7b117xa522774acf92ed07@mail.gmail.com>

This is how I got it running, after setting up the ssh and vncserver
install stuffs.

1. ssh username at IP -L 5901:127.0.0.1:5901
2. From server: vncserver :2 -geometry 800x600 -depth 16 -name NAME
3. From client: vncviewer -via username at IP localhost:2

Thank you Jeff, Doug, Doug's friend and everyone else who (through
mailing lists, chat or at the Installfest) have made this possible.
Hope it helps!

                             -jordan


From cncole at earthlink.net  Sat Jun  3 19:57:59 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:57:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest was great!
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF47B@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEICCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

This one seemed to have no problems at all!  (the one Kevin did wasn't
bad, just done in haste)

Thanks all!

Chuck
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From jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 20:46:52 2006
From: jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com (Jeff Rasmussen)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:46:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VNC tunneling through SSH
In-Reply-To: <bada98250606031304x64c7b117xa522774acf92ed07@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250606031304x64c7b117xa522774acf92ed07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d6c82530606031846h1d754d2dw3b97941ad57c0a5c@mail.gmail.com>

Make sure you only use the -L option within a private network.  The -L
option opens the local port to any computer to send traffic through
the tunnel.

Use -l to only allow the ssh client to send traffic through the tunnel.

On 6/3/06, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is how I got it running, after setting up the ssh and vncserver
> install stuffs.
>
> 1. ssh username at IP -L 5901:127.0.0.1:5901
> 2. From server: vncserver :2 -geometry 800x600 -depth 16 -name NAME
> 3. From client: vncviewer -via username at IP localhost:2
>
> Thank you Jeff, Doug, Doug's friend and everyone else who (through
> mailing lists, chat or at the Installfest) have made this possible.
> Hope it helps!
>
>                              -jordan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Rasmussen
GPG public key 0x9686C12F


From sac at cheesecake.org  Sun Jun  4 08:21:35 2006
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 08:21:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VNC tunneling through SSH
In-Reply-To: <9d6c82530606031846h1d754d2dw3b97941ad57c0a5c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250606031304x64c7b117xa522774acf92ed07@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d6c82530606031846h1d754d2dw3b97941ad57c0a5c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060604132135.GA2186@cheesecake.org>

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 at 20.46.52 -0500, Jeff Rasmussen wrote:
> On 6/3/06, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> > This is how I got it running, after setting up the ssh and vncserver
> > install stuffs.
> >
> > 1. ssh username at IP -L 5901:127.0.0.1:5901
> > 2. From server: vncserver :2 -geometry 800x600 -depth 16 -name NAME
> > 3. From client: vncviewer -via username at IP localhost:2
>
> Make sure you only use the -L option within a private network.  The -L
> option opens the local port to any computer to send traffic through
> the tunnel.
> 
> Use -l to only allow the ssh client to send traffic through the tunnel.

(1) -l specifies the username and has nothing to do with port forwarding.
(2) -L (at least in openssh) does not allow remote connections to the
local port by default.
(3) -g enables remote connections to the local port.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sun Jun  4 09:43:56 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 09:43:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] VNC tunneling through SSH
In-Reply-To: <20060604132135.GA2186@cheesecake.org>
References: <bada98250606031304x64c7b117xa522774acf92ed07@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d6c82530606031846h1d754d2dw3b97941ad57c0a5c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060604132135.GA2186@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606040931440.22480@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:

> On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 at 20.46.52 -0500, Jeff Rasmussen wrote:
>> On 6/3/06, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This is how I got it running, after setting up the ssh and vncserver
>>> install stuffs.
>>>
>>> 1. ssh username at IP -L 5901:127.0.0.1:5901
>>> 2. From server: vncserver :2 -geometry 800x600 -depth 16 -name NAME
>>> 3. From client: vncviewer -via username at IP localhost:2
>>
>> Make sure you only use the -L option within a private network.  The -L
>> option opens the local port to any computer to send traffic through
>> the tunnel.
>>
>> Use -l to only allow the ssh client to send traffic through the tunnel.
>
> (1) -l specifies the username and has nothing to do with port forwarding.
> (2) -L (at least in openssh) does not allow remote connections to the
> local port by default.
> (3) -g enables remote connections to the local port.


It's the same on ssh.com's version of ssh2 except that the -g option 
doesn't exist.  I'm almost 100% sure that the -l (login name) and -L 
(local host port forwarding) options are universal in ssh.  There is also 
a -R for remote host port forwarding.

I think the incorrect message didn't get through to the VNC list, so no 
need to send a note there.

Mike


From dan at dandrake.org  Sun Jun  4 20:39:24 2006
From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:39:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PCI sound card needed
Message-ID: <20060605013924.GA19375@dandrake.org>

My on-board sound has died. All I did was move my computer a bit, and
now I get nothing but a weird sound out of my speakers.

Does anybody have a regular PCI sound card they can give me or sell me
for cheap? I don't need anything special, I just listen to music and
watch DVDs on regular stereo speakers. Any standard card that works in
Linux is fine.

I'm a grad student at the U, and live near Uptown, so if you can meet me
near one of those places, that would be best.

Thanks!

Dan

-- 
Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
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From baz at winternet.com  Sun Jun  4 20:29:05 2006
From: baz at winternet.com (Bryan A. Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:29:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Selective RedHat Installs using rpm
References: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com><741dcbb80606021510s54642173u9e7ca90a9246a78d@mail.gmail.com><46411.204.212.34.10.1149289749.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<741dcbb80606030843w4baffd0dp935d9dfb0100dc9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c68843$5b54fa80$0f00a8c0@bills>

Hello again,

You all were so good giving me just the answer I needed before, so I thought 
I would try again:

I have a Fedora Core 5 installation. I would like to update it so that all 
available redhat distribution software is installed.

I often log in at runlevel 5 and use the Gnome window manager. Then I tried 
the program "Update Software" from one of the menus, typed in the root 
password (apparently, the program invoked was "pirut").

Instantly I get a message to the effect of "repo not found". I wasn't 
successful in finding useful help text for this error.

Undaunted, I logged into a virtual terminal in text mode, plopped in the 
installation DVD, accessed the RPM directory, then realized I didn't know 
the command that would say:

"Hey, install every package that's not already installed. Oh, by the way, 
resolve the dependencies and install whatever is necessary to meet the 
dependencies."

Back in the old days I used to just brute-force install by saying:

# rpm -Uvh --force --nodeps *rpm

but nowadays things have gotten more sophisticated. I must admit, the rpm 
man page leaves me wondering about whether it's time to get the laundry yet. 
(It's THAT interesting).

So, in short, my question has two parts:

1. I tried to do a full install in the first place. Why am I missing a 
database called "repo" by the pirut program?

2. Does anyone know the rpm syntax meaning "install whatever packages 
available that are not already installed, resolving the dependencies and 
installing those as appropriate?"

Thanks for your consideration of this matter. And I hope the installfest was 
a good time.


Bryan A. Zimmer

baz at winternet dot com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brock Noland" <brockn at gmail.com>
To: "Raymond Norton" <admin at lctn.org>
Cc: "TCLUG List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] apache conf problems


> Never mind.... I was thinking my box was CentOS because it is at my
> workplace, but I forgot my personal is ubuntu.. Sorry!
>
> Brock
>
> On 6/2/06, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Your putting the new virtual hosts in:
>> >
>> > /etc/apache2/sites-available
>> >
>> > and then symlinking them from:
>> >
>> > /etc/apache2/sites-enabled
>> >
>> > Correct?
>>
>> No, they are all in /etc/httpd/conf.d. There is something to what Wayne
>> said, because moodle.domain worked till I added kt.domain. Now you get is
>> kt.domain when you go to moodel.domain.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 



From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 21:04:39 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 21:04:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>

1. Don't use the partition editor in the installer.  Use gparted first, then
run install.
2. The screensaver on the Live CD must be turned off before installation
begins.  (I bet some poor dev's smacking their forehead over that one...)

I wasted most of an hour trying to figure out why my installation froze
before checking the sticky on the Ubuntu Forums.  Don't be dumb like Pete
;-)
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From thecubic at thecubic.net  Mon Jun  5 01:17:48 2006
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:17:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Selective RedHat Installs using rpm
In-Reply-To: <000001c68843$5b54fa80$0f00a8c0@bills>
References: <1149279947.11068.78.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
	<741dcbb80606030843w4baffd0dp935d9dfb0100dc9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c68843$5b54fa80$0f00a8c0@bills>
Message-ID: <200606050117.49792.thecubic@thecubic.net>

On Sunday 04 June 2006 20:29, Bryan A. Zimmer wrote:
> Instantly I get a message to the effect of "repo not found". I wasn't
> successful in finding useful help text for this error.

'repo not found' is likely from yum - it looks like it might be misconfigured.  
What files are in /etc/yum.repos.d ?

Pirut is a (very new) graphical frontend to yum, which is a frontend to 
Fedora's repositories (core, updates, extras).  If you run 'yum check-update' 
as root, does it die terribly?  Do you have a net connection on this machine?

> "Hey, install every package that's not already installed. Oh, by the way,
> resolve the dependencies and install whatever is necessary to meet the
> dependencies."

That would be approximately 'yum localinstall *.rpm' - but - some packages may 
conflict (postfix and sendmail for example) and it probably will die.  Your 
best bet is to fix up yum so that you can use pirut.

> 2. Does anyone know the rpm syntax meaning "install whatever packages
> available that are not already installed, resolving the dependencies and
> installing those as appropriate?"

That's way too complicated for RPM, which only does sanity checking for 
dependencies.

Dave


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun  5 02:07:31 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 02:07:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:

> 1. Don't use the partition editor in the installer.  Use gparted first, 
> then run install.

I was thinking of installing Ubuntu as a second OS on a WinXP x64 machine. 
So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type 
"gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted 
separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to use 
that -- I haven't used gparted before.  Can anyone recommend a good source 
on how to use gparted to create a partition for Linux without messing up 
Windows data?

Does the partition editor not work at all or does it damage things?


> 2. The screensaver on the Live CD must be turned off before installation 
> begins.  (I bet some poor dev's smacking their forehead over that 
> one...)

That's an annoying bug -- thanks for figuring that out.

Mike


From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Mon Jun  5 06:15:18 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:15:18 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] PCI sound card needed
Message-ID: <060520061115.25633.44841246000752D600006421220702293397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Dan,

General Nano has a couple.

Ever Trust 32bit 4-Channel PCI Sound Card with Game Port 14.99

Ever Trust 32bit 6-Channel PCI Sound Card with Game Port 19.99

General NanoSystems, Inc.
3014 University Ave. SE
Minneapolis, MN 55414
In the Twin Cities Call: 612-331-3690

With power off remove sound card then re insert, maybe it has some dirty contacts?


HTH,

  Jerry W


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 08:20:05 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 08:20:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>

>>So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type
"gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted separately
(gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to use that -- I
haven't used gparted before.

Gparted is included in the CD, system > administration >gnome partition
editor.  It's dead simple, if you know your way around a partition list, it
shouldn't give you any problems.

>>Does the partition editor not work at all or does it damage things?

The editor in the install script will tell you it completed the operations
successfully, but if you go back and view the partitions, it shows that your
newly created partitions are of unknown type.

On 6/5/06, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:
>
> > 1. Don't use the partition editor in the installer.  Use gparted first,
> > then run install.
>
> I was thinking of installing Ubuntu as a second OS on a WinXP x64 machine.
> So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type
> "gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted
> separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to use
> that -- I haven't used gparted before.  Can anyone recommend a good source
> on how to use gparted to create a partition for Linux without messing up
> Windows data?
>
> Does the partition editor not work at all or does it damage things?
>
>
> > 2. The screensaver on the Live CD must be turned off before installation
> > begins.  (I bet some poor dev's smacking their forehead over that
> > one...)
>
> That's an annoying bug -- thanks for figuring that out.
>
> Mike
>
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From nate at ima.umn.edu  Mon Jun  5 08:38:11 2006
From: nate at ima.umn.edu (Nate Sanders)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 08:38:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <448433C3.8050408@ima.umn.edu>

Easiest method is to use the LiveCD image of GParted

http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php


Mike Miller wrote:

>On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:
>
>  
>
>>1. Don't use the partition editor in the installer.  Use gparted first, 
>>then run install.
>>    
>>
>
>I was thinking of installing Ubuntu as a second OS on a WinXP x64 machine. 
>So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type 
>"gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted 
>separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to use 
>that -- I haven't used gparted before.  Can anyone recommend a good source 
>on how to use gparted to create a partition for Linux without messing up 
>Windows data?
>
>Does the partition editor not work at all or does it damage things?
>
>
>  
>
>>2. The screensaver on the Live CD must be turned off before installation 
>>begins.  (I bet some poor dev's smacking their forehead over that 
>>one...)
>>    
>>
>
>That's an annoying bug -- thanks for figuring that out.
>
>Mike
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>  
>


-- 
==============================================
Nate Sanders                  nate at ima.umn.edu
Associate Systems Manager     (612) 624 - 4353
           http://www.ima.umn.edu/
==============================================
Institute for Mathematics and its Applications
University of Minnesota
400 Lind Hall, 207 Church St. SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455-0463
============================================== 




From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu  Mon Jun  5 10:32:53 2006
From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:32:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Your favorite lightweight WM?
In-Reply-To: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
References: <447F71A2.8020809@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20060605103253.A18935@baker.space.umn.edu>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 06:00:50PM -0500, Bob Hartmann wrote:
> Hi! 
> I've been using fluxbox for a couple of years.  I like it, but I'm itchy 
> to try something else.  Some things in fb "don't work" and the basic DIY 
> support/community is so-so.  Gnome makes no sense to me and full-blown 
> KDE is too much of a pig after using fluxbox. 
> I'm asking the list because an sf search on "window manager" gives *3379 
> hits.  *And the first few pages are indeed window managers.  I suppose 
> I'll go look at their home pages, but I'd appreciate any suggestions or 
> capsule reviews from luggers in the TC.  (The candidate must play nice 
> with kdelibs so I can Rosegarden and K3b. )

I use Windowmaker almost exclusively.  For me it hits the sweet
spot between twm and KDE nicely.


-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/ 
Never laugh at live dragons  |


From jwhitenews at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 10:48:09 2006
From: jwhitenews at gmail.com (Jeremy White)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 10:48:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
Message-ID: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>

I am running in to some strange memory errors when trying to optimize a JVM.
When I set the min and max to 1.5gb and start the JVM, I immediately get an
OutOfMemoryError. If I pull it back to 1.2gb or so, it works fine. The
amount of physical memory in this machine is 4gb, and nothing else is really
running on it. The machine is running RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.

We have another server that we just upgraded the OS on, to RHEL 3, kernel
2.4.21-40.ELsmp. On that server, the JVM starts fine with a 1.5gb min/max.

I suspect this has to do with the way the kernel manages memory. I know I
have read that you can not give a JVM over 2gb of memory in Linux, but I am
not even getting close to that. Since this works on the newer kernel, maybe
its something thats compiled in, but I was hoping it was a configuration
that could be changed.

Anyway, I would just like to get some ideas because I really would like to
know more about tuning the kernel for memory management, and I would like to
know why these JVMs are throwing these errors - mostly out of curiousity as
to how things work.

Thanks you in advance fro your help.

Jeremy
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun  5 11:18:15 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:18:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060605161815.GI7905@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 10:48:09AM -0500, Jeremy White wrote:
> I am running in to some strange memory errors when trying to optimize a JVM.
> When I set the min and max to 1.5gb and start the JVM, I immediately get an
> OutOfMemoryError. If I pull it back to 1.2gb or so, it works fine. The
> amount of physical memory in this machine is 4gb, and nothing else is really
> running on it. The machine is running RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.
> 
> We have another server that we just upgraded the OS on, to RHEL 3, kernel
> 2.4.21-40.ELsmp. On that server, the JVM starts fine with a 1.5gb min/max.
> 
> I suspect this has to do with the way the kernel manages memory. I know I
> have read that you can not give a JVM over 2gb of memory in Linux, but I am
> not even getting close to that. Since this works on the newer kernel, maybe
> its something thats compiled in, but I was hoping it was a configuration
> that could be changed.
> 
> Anyway, I would just like to get some ideas because I really would like to
> know more about tuning the kernel for memory management, and I would like to
> know why these JVMs are throwing these errors - mostly out of curiousity as
> to how things work.

What JVM and what version? Have you tried SUN, IBM and JRockit?

Is this for an application server, or a J2SE application?

From the memory limits I infer you are running on i386. Are both
machines identical? Are both JVMs indentical?

florin

-- 
There was a typo, but on the wrong page.
   -- Vipin Kumar
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From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun  5 12:19:41 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:19:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest Thank You
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4DC@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Thanks to all of you who came to the installfest last weekend.  We had 40 attendees (according to the sign-in sheets).  There were plenty of people there to help and mentor, and thanks to Dave Christianson and rpath for springing for pizza.

A special thank you to Heritage Christian Academy for hosting the event, and to Doug Coats (who works there) for all the hard work he put in setting this up.  Also, thanks to Florin for supplying the installfest server, and to all the other folks who brought power and network cables, as well as switches.  

Doug said he had so much fun, he wants to do this again next week.  Well maybe next year.  Even the president of HCA (who stopped by to check us out) was impressed with the turnout.

Thanks again, all.

Wayne Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
MQSoftware, Inc.
1660 S Highway 100
Minneapolis, MN 55416
(952) 345-8628



From tmarble at info9.net  Mon Jun  5 13:00:18 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:00:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44847132.8030902@info9.net>

Pete Daniels wrote:
>>>So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and
> type "gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted
> separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to
> use that -- I haven't used gparted before.
> 
> Gparted is included in the CD, system > administration >gnome partition
> editor.  It's dead simple, if you know your way around a partition list,
> it shouldn't give you any problems.

I had no trouble with the Ubuntu partitioner...

In Mike's case I would probably use RIP [1] (or some other LiveCD) and do ntfsresize
first before doing the install.  Note: you have to do the defrag, reboot,
chkdisk dance [2].

HTH,

--Tom

[1] http://www.tux.org/pub/people/kent-robotti/looplinux/rip/
[2] http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html


From tmarble at info9.net  Mon Jun  5 13:58:06 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 13:58:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44847EBE.1010406@info9.net>

Jeremy White wrote:
> I am running in to some strange memory errors when trying to optimize a
> JVM. When I set the min and max to 1.5gb and start the JVM, I
> immediately get an OutOfMemoryError. If I pull it back to 1.2gb or so,
> it works fine. The amount of physical memory in this machine is 4gb, and
> nothing else is really running on it. The machine is running RHEL 2.1,
> kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.
> 
> We have another server that we just upgraded the OS on, to RHEL 3,
> kernel 2.4.21-40.ELsmp. On that server, the JVM starts fine with a 1.5gb
> min/max.
> 
> I suspect this has to do with the way the kernel manages memory. I know
> I have read that you can not give a JVM over 2gb of memory in Linux, [...]

This such an *old* kernel that you are almost certainly stuck
in the old 1 GB / 2 GB / 1 GB split era.

Allow me to highly recommend a more recent version (in this case
RedHat). [1]

These sorts of performance questions are often discussed in the
Java Performance Forum. [2]

Also please see the notes on Large Pages for the Sun JVM [3].

HTH,

--Tom

[1] https://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/release-notes/as-x86/

kernel

This section contains notes relating to the Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 kernel.

    * Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 includes a kernel known as the hugemem kernel. This kernel supports a 4GB per-process user space (versus 3GB for the other kernels), and a 4GB direct kernel space. Using this kernel allows Red Hat Enterprise Linux to run
on systems with up to 64GB of main memory. The hugemem kernel is required in order to use all the memory in system configurations containing more than 16GB of memory. The hugemem kernel can also benefit configurations running with less memory (if running
an application that could benefit from the larger per-process user space, for example.)
      Note
      To provide a 4GB address space for both kernel and user space, the kernel must maintain two separate virtual memory address mappings. This introduces overhead when transferring from user to kernel space; for example, in the case of system calls and
interrupts. The impact of this overhead on overall performance is highly application dependent.

[2] http://forums.java.net/jive/forum.jspa?forumID=60&start=0

[3] http://java.sun.com/docs/hotspot/VMOptions.html#largepages


From jwhitenews at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 14:18:47 2006
From: jwhitenews at gmail.com (Jeremy White)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:18:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM settings and info
Message-ID: <7454a0c30606051218u8957394y1694e49de165cb68@mail.gmail.com>

    On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 10:48:09AM -0500, Jeremy White wrote:
   > I am running in to some strange memory errors when trying to optimize a
   JVM.
   > When I set the min and max to 1.5gb and start the JVM, I immediately
get
   an
   > OutOfMemoryError. If I pull it back to 1.2gb or so, it works fine. The
   > amount of physical memory in this machine is 4gb, and nothing else is
   really
   > running on it. The machine is running RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.
   >
   > We have another server that we just upgraded the OS on, to RHEL 3,
kernel
   > 2.4.21-40.ELsmp. On that server, the JVM starts fine with a 1.5gbmin/max.
   >
   > I suspect this has to do with the way the kernel manages memory. I know
I
   > have read that you can not give a JVM over 2gb of memory in Linux, but
I
   am
   > not even getting close to that. Since this works on the newer kernel,
   maybe
   > its something thats compiled in, but I was hoping it was a
configuration
   > that could be changed.
   >
   > Anyway, I would just like to get some ideas because I really would like
to
   > know more about tuning the kernel for memory management, and I would
like
   to
   > know why these JVMs are throwing these errors - mostly out of
curiousity

- Ignored:
   as
   > to how things work.

   What JVM and what version? Have you tried SUN, IBM and JRockit?

   Is this for an application server, or a J2SE application?

   From the memory limits I infer you are running on i386. Are both
   machines identical? Are both JVMs indentical?

   florin

   Florin,

   Thanks for the quick response.  I am currently using the Sun JVM version
   1.4.2_08.  This is for a Tomcat application server version 4.1.31 .  Yes
   both machine are identical except for the OS.  One is RHEL 3, kernel
   2.4.21-40.ELsmp and the other is RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.

   Jeremy
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From josh at joshwelch.com  Mon Jun  5 16:30:37 2006
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:30:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>

Quoting Jeremy White <jwhitenews at gmail.com>:

> I am running in to some strange memory errors when trying to optimize a JVM.
> When I set the min and max to 1.5gb and start the JVM, I immediately get an
> OutOfMemoryError. If I pull it back to 1.2gb or so, it works fine. The
> amount of physical memory in this machine is 4gb, and nothing else is really
> running on it. The machine is running RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.
>
> We have another server that we just upgraded the OS on, to RHEL 3, kernel
> 2.4.21-40.ELsmp. On that server, the JVM starts fine with a 1.5gb min/max.
>
> I suspect this has to do with the way the kernel manages memory. I know I
> have read that you can not give a JVM over 2gb of memory in Linux, but I am
> not even getting close to that. Since this works on the newer kernel, maybe
> its something thats compiled in, but I was hoping it was a configuration
> that could be changed.
>
> Anyway, I would just like to get some ideas because I really would like to
> know more about tuning the kernel for memory management, and I would like to
> know why these JVMs are throwing these errors - mostly out of curiousity as
> to how things work.
>
> Thanks you in advance fro your help.
>
> Jeremy


What JVM are you using?

What arguments are you passing to the JVM?

What is the error (specifically) that you are seeing?

I've not heard about a 2Gb limit with JVM's before, that could be 
something from prior to 1.4 Java, or it could be that I've just not 
heard of it before.

Thanks,
Josh


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun  5 16:59:18 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:59:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM settings and info
In-Reply-To: <7454a0c30606051218u8957394y1694e49de165cb68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606051218u8957394y1694e49de165cb68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060605215918.GN7905@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 05, 2006 at 02:18:47PM -0500, Jeremy White wrote:
>>   What JVM and what version? Have you tried SUN, IBM and JRockit?
>> 
>>   Is this for an application server, or a J2SE application?
> 
>   Thanks for the quick response.  I am currently using the Sun JVM version
>   1.4.2_08.  This is for a Tomcat application server version 4.1.31 .  Yes
>   both machine are identical except for the OS.  One is RHEL 3, kernel
>   2.4.21-40.ELsmp and the other is RHEL 2.1, kernel 2.4.9-e.65smp.

Try the IBM JDK 1.4x and see if it fixes the problem.

florin

-- 
There was a typo, but on the wrong page.
   -- Vipin Kumar
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 17:05:04 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:05:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
Message-ID: <4484AA90.6060200@gmail.com>

Josh Welch wrote:

> 
> I've not heard about a 2Gb limit with JVM's before, 

...

> or it could be that I've just not heard of it before.

That would be the correct answer :)

On a 32 bit system, the cap is somewhere between 1.2 and 2 GB.  It seems 
to vary a bit from platform to platform, and VM to VM, but its 
definitely a hard limit.  Sun's documentation on what that hard limit 
will be per platform is rather sketchy... but the JVM simply won't start 
with a -Xmx value higher than the magic limit number for your hardware 
configuration.

Gotta go 64 bit if you want to use higher -Xmx numbers.

Dan



-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From tmarble at info9.net  Mon Jun  5 17:24:25 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:24:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <4484AA90.6060200@gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>	<20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
	<4484AA90.6060200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4484AF19.5020701@info9.net>

Dan Armbrust wrote:
> On a 32 bit system, the cap is somewhere between 1.2 and 2 GB.  It seems 
> to vary a bit from platform to platform, and VM to VM, but its 
> definitely a hard limit.  Sun's documentation on what that hard limit 
> will be per platform is rather sketchy... but the JVM simply won't start 
> with a -Xmx value higher than the magic limit number for your hardware 
> configuration.
As I'm one of the people that maintains that documentation let me
know how we can improve it ;-)

The Sun JVM will run up to -Xmx at 4 GB (well around 3880) on those
operating systems that will support it.

> Gotta go 64 bit if you want to use higher -Xmx numbers.
Higher than 4 GB (less a little bit for native stack space, etc.)

Regards,

--Tom


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun  5 21:39:18 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:39:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:

>> So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type 
>> "gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted 
>> separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to 
>> use that -- I haven't used gparted before.
>
> Gparted is included in the CD, system > administration >gnome partition 
> editor.  It's dead simple, if you know your way around a partition list, 
> it shouldn't give you any problems.


I'm installing Xubuntu on an older machine for practice.  It's not dual 
boot -- I'm just putting Xubuntu alone on one HDD.

I get how to use gparted, and I partitioned the drive in a simple way 
using the gparted live CD.

The problem comes when I'm doing the installation of Xubuntu.  I imagine 
the installer is the same as for Ubuntu.  I turn off the screen saver and 
proceed with installation.  When I get up to the stage where it wants to 
partition the disk, I see know option for skipping that stage.  If I try 
to accept the defaults, it hangs.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Mon Jun  5 21:41:39 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:41:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] how to change mailman group id
Message-ID: <51587.204.212.34.10.1149561699.squirrel@lctn.org>


I am getting the following error when attempting to access the mailman
alias on my server. How can I change the group id to something that exist
on my server?


Mailman CGI error!!!
The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being
stored in your syslog:
Failure to lookup via getgrgid() the group info for group id -1 that this
Mailman CGI wrapper is executing under.
This is probably due to an incorrectly configured system and is not a
Mailman problem


-- 
Raymond Norton
LCTN




From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 21:49:45 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:49:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606051949l5b948d1al50986aa7394985f6@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't used the Xubuntu installer (yet, ask me tomorrow), but I'm pretty
sure it'd be the same: Select "manually edit partition table" when the
installer prompts you to and just click through the first screen (the
partitioner).  On the next screen, you'll be prompted to select mount
points.

On 6/5/06, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:
>
> >> So do I run Ubuntu from the Desktop CD, open a terminal window and type
> >> "gparted" on the command line?  Or do I have to download gparted
> >> separately (gparted live CD?).  Will it be tricky to understand how to
> >> use that -- I haven't used gparted before.
> >
> > Gparted is included in the CD, system > administration >gnome partition
> > editor.  It's dead simple, if you know your way around a partition list,
> > it shouldn't give you any problems.
>
>
> I'm installing Xubuntu on an older machine for practice.  It's not dual
> boot -- I'm just putting Xubuntu alone on one HDD.
>
> I get how to use gparted, and I partitioned the drive in a simple way
> using the gparted live CD.
>
> The problem comes when I'm doing the installation of Xubuntu.  I imagine
> the installer is the same as for Ubuntu.  I turn off the screen saver and
> proceed with installation.  When I get up to the stage where it wants to
> partition the disk, I see know option for skipping that stage.  If I try
> to accept the defaults, it hangs.
>
> Mike
>
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From ddezurik at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  5 22:36:17 2006
From: ddezurik at yahoo.com (Damien DeZurik)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client
Message-ID: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi,

 I am looking for a command line streaming client that can hook up to a live365 mp3 audio stream.  The client will be on a system that is not running X.  Cookies need to be set on a login page before the stream will start.  I tried using wget to hit that login page and force a post of the uname/passwd and I got it to successfully log in and, more importantly, set those cookies. I found I can then use mplayer to hook directly to the stream URL and read cookies from the same cookie file that wget had generated.  It is not working as I had hoped; when the audio starts I get a recorded message in place of the stream saying, "you must first log in...".  It is possible that a session is broken when I switch from wget to mplayer.  So I have a couple of questions if anyone has any advice.

1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?

2. Does anyone know of any other command line, no GUI required, streaming clients at all regardless of if you think they will work in this scenario?

Thanks!!

Damien




From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Jun  6 04:42:04 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 04:42:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] VNC tunneling through SSH
In-Reply-To: <23209601.1149365493364.JavaMail.root@sniper4>
References: <23209601.1149365493364.JavaMail.root@sniper4>
Message-ID: <200606060442.05649.jus@krytosvirus.com>

On Saturday 03 June 2006 03:04 pm, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> This is how I got it running, after setting up the ssh and vncserver
> install stuffs.
>
> 1. ssh username at IP -L 5901:127.0.0.1:5901
> 2. From server: vncserver :2 -geometry 800x600 -depth 16 -name NAME
> 3. From client: vncviewer -via username at IP localhost:2
>
> Thank you Jeff, Doug, Doug's friend and everyone else who (through
> mailing lists, chat or at the Installfest) have made this possible.
> Hope it helps!
>
>                              -jordan

You might consider -N and -f as options to your SSH client connection. This 
will connection your ssh session but not start a shell or issue any commands 
and also put your ssh session in the background so you can close your 
terminal or log off or whatever and the session/tunnel will still be active. 

On the other hand, I will also sometimes establish a regular foreground ssh 
session/tunnel and initiate my program thru the tunnel then type exit in the 
ssh session so that when I terminate my tunneled application (VNC or 
whatever) the ssh session exits automatically and I am not left with an open 
tunnel.

Another option from the man page of the ssh client

$ ssh -f -L 1234:localhost:6667 server.example.com sleep 10
$ irc -c '#users' -p 1234 pinky 127.0.0.1

The -f option backgrounds ssh and the remote command ``sleep 10'' is
specified to allow an amount of time (10 seconds, in the example) to
start the service which is to be tunnelled.  If no connections are made
within the time specified, ssh will exit.



From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 08:12:44 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:12:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <4484AF19.5020701@info9.net>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>	<20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
	<4484AA90.6060200@gmail.com> <4484AF19.5020701@info9.net>
Message-ID: <44857F4C.4050204@gmail.com>

Tom Marble wrote:

> As I'm one of the people that maintains that documentation let me
> know how we can improve it ;-)
> 
> The Sun JVM will run up to -Xmx at 4 GB (well around 3880) on those
> operating systems that will support it.

Really?  Ok, now I had to go run some experiments.

On my windows XP machine, with 2 GB of RAM, the max I can launch at is 
-Xmx1500M

On a 32 bit Fedora Core 3 install with 3 GB of physical RAM, I can get 
up to  -Xmx3750M - (today - strange thing is I _know_ I couldn't get 
this high previously - I don't know what system setting I have changed 
to let me go higher...)

So, where can I find the documentation that explains how the OS caps 
these numbers?  Is there a way to raise the cap on windows?


Thanks,

Dan




-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From ljahnke at DATALINK.com  Tue Jun  6 08:42:56 2006
From: ljahnke at DATALINK.com (Lance Jahnke)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:42:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
Message-ID: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>

Hello group. I have been googling for about a week and cannot find the
answer to this question. I have Redhat Enterprise Linux 64bit with
Kernel 2.6.9-34 and need to control the shutdown process. Here is my
scenario:

 

I am using a NetApp filer for storage with my Oracle 10g database and
binaries running on the filer connected via NFS. When my computer
operator does a shutdown from the console via the GUI interface, I need
the system to run my Oracle shutdown script first before doing anything
else and then continue on with normal shutdown. My CIO doesn't want the
operators to run stuff at the command prompt so shelling out to run my
script first isn't an option. I created K01ora_stop scripts in RC0.d,
RC1.d, RC5.d, RC6.d and this has no effect. NFS still gets dumped before
Oracle which creates obvious issues. Any suggestions would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks. 

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From klinej at msoe.edu  Tue Jun  6 08:51:47 2006
From: klinej at msoe.edu (Jonathan Kline)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 08:51:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
In-Reply-To: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>
References: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>
Message-ID: <200606060851.48260.klinej@msoe.edu>

Add the script /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/ as Redhat defaults to run level 3.

On Tuesday 06 June 2006 08:42, Lance Jahnke wrote:
> Hello group. I have been googling for about a week and cannot find the
> answer to this question. I have Redhat Enterprise Linux 64bit with
> Kernel 2.6.9-34 and need to control the shutdown process. Here is my
> scenario:
>
>
>
> I am using a NetApp filer for storage with my Oracle 10g database and
> binaries running on the filer connected via NFS. When my computer
> operator does a shutdown from the console via the GUI interface, I need
> the system to run my Oracle shutdown script first before doing anything
> else and then continue on with normal shutdown. My CIO doesn't want the
> operators to run stuff at the command prompt so shelling out to run my
> script first isn't an option. I created K01ora_stop scripts in RC0.d,
> RC1.d, RC5.d, RC6.d and this has no effect. NFS still gets dumped before
> Oracle which creates obvious issues. Any suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun  6 10:21:50 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:21:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606051949l5b948d1al50986aa7394985f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606051949l5b948d1al50986aa7394985f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606061015080.9415@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:

> I haven't used the Xubuntu installer (yet, ask me tomorrow), but I'm 
> pretty sure it'd be the same: Select "manually edit partition table" 
> when the installer prompts you to and just click through the first 
> screen (the partitioner).  On the next screen, you'll be prompted to 
> select mount points.

I followed your advice and it seemed to work, but the the installer 
crashes!  Well, I'm probably going to quit trying now unless someone finds 
some good info on how to deal with the buggy Xubuntu installer.  Problems:

(1) you have to load Xubuntu on a live CD to initiate the installation and 
it takes forever to get started.

(2) If the HDD is partitioned in a certain way when the Xubuntu Live CD is 
started, it will crash.  Or so it seems.  When I had / formatted for ext3, 
the live CD would not load Xubuntu, but when I formatted for ext2, it 
loaded.

(3) After skipping through the partition management part of the 
installation process, the installer stops and tells me that there are 
errors on the HDD and that I must go back and fix them.  If I try to do 
this, the installer crashes and tells me to file a bug report.

Mentioned earlier:

If you don't turn off the screen saver, it will not install (I believed 
this story and did not test it).

If you try to use Ubuntu's partition manager during the installation, the 
installation will fail.


Sadly, I can't recommend Ubuntu when I can't get it to work.  I had high 
hopes.

Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 10:33:10 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:33:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606061015080.9415@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606051949l5b948d1al50986aa7394985f6@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606061015080.9415@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606060833h6e3f1ff2k7aeeb6d7f35305b1@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry to hear it.  Sounds miserable.

Anyway, I'll try to eff with the install CD tonight.  Meantime, you might
want to give the alternate installer a shot.  It's like the old
5.10installers, not a live/install.  You can d/l it here:
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/dapper/release/

On 6/6/06, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:
>
> > I haven't used the Xubuntu installer (yet, ask me tomorrow), but I'm
> > pretty sure it'd be the same: Select "manually edit partition table"
> > when the installer prompts you to and just click through the first
> > screen (the partitioner).  On the next screen, you'll be prompted to
> > select mount points.
>
> I followed your advice and it seemed to work, but the the installer
> crashes!  Well, I'm probably going to quit trying now unless someone finds
> some good info on how to deal with the buggy Xubuntu installer.  Problems:
>
> (1) you have to load Xubuntu on a live CD to initiate the installation and
> it takes forever to get started.
>
> (2) If the HDD is partitioned in a certain way when the Xubuntu Live CD is
> started, it will crash.  Or so it seems.  When I had / formatted for ext3,
> the live CD would not load Xubuntu, but when I formatted for ext2, it
> loaded.
>
> (3) After skipping through the partition management part of the
> installation process, the installer stops and tells me that there are
> errors on the HDD and that I must go back and fix them.  If I try to do
> this, the installer crashes and tells me to file a bug report.
>
> Mentioned earlier:
>
> If you don't turn off the screen saver, it will not install (I believed
> this story and did not test it).
>
> If you try to use Ubuntu's partition manager during the installation, the
> installation will fail.
>
>
> Sadly, I can't recommend Ubuntu when I can't get it to work.  I had high
> hopes.
>
> Mike
>
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun  6 10:44:01 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:44:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] FYI: Two known Dapper installer bugs
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606060833h6e3f1ff2k7aeeb6d7f35305b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606041904u4732bc26yb596c906ecff0991@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606050152370.14196@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<1f729feb0606050620o57e6cee1hd78f3e50e6bcff03@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606052133340.3272@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<1f729feb0606051949l5b948d1al50986aa7394985f6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606061015080.9415@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1f729feb0606060833h6e3f1ff2k7aeeb6d7f35305b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606061039450.9415@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Pete Daniels wrote:

> Anyway, I'll try to eff with the install CD tonight.  Meantime, you might
> want to give the alternate installer a shot.  It's like the old
> 5.10installers, not a live/install.  You can d/l it here:
> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/dapper/release/


From tmarble at info9.net  Tue Jun  6 10:57:43 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:57:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] JVM help on Linux
In-Reply-To: <44857F4C.4050204@gmail.com>
References: <7454a0c30606050848m7733202frdfd57cb868d73881@mail.gmail.com>	<20060605163037.47n1f26ccskgoc4c@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>	<4484AA90.6060200@gmail.com>
	<4484AF19.5020701@info9.net> <44857F4C.4050204@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4485A5F7.4090906@info9.net>

Dan Armbrust wrote:
> Tom Marble wrote:
>> The Sun JVM will run up to -Xmx at 4 GB (well around 3880) on those
>> operating systems that will support it.
> 
> Really?  Ok, now I had to go run some experiments.
> 
> On my windows XP machine, with 2 GB of RAM, the max I can launch at is 
> -Xmx1500M
> 
> On a 32 bit Fedora Core 3 install with 3 GB of physical RAM, I can get 
> up to  -Xmx3750M - (today - strange thing is I _know_ I couldn't get 
> this high previously - I don't know what system setting I have changed 
> to let me go higher...)
> 
> So, where can I find the documentation that explains how the OS caps 
> these numbers?  Is there a way to raise the cap on windows?
We are working on a new 64-bit FAQ (not yet public, sorry ;-)

Here's a snippet for the Window's thing:

Why can't I get a larger heap with the 32-bit JVM?

The maximum theoretical heap limit for the 32-bit JVM is 4G. Due to
various additional constraints such as available swap, kernel address
space usage, memory fragmentation, and VM overhead, in practice the
limit can be much lower. On most modern 32-bit Windows systems the
maximum heap size will range from 1.4G to 1.6G. On 32-bit Solaris
kernels the address space is limited to 2G. On 64-bit operating
systems running the 32-bit VM, the max heap size can be higher,
approaching 4G on many Solaris systems.

As of Java SE 6, the Windows /3GB boot.ini feature is not supported.

If your application requires a very large heap you should use a 64-bit
VM on a version of the operating system that supports 64-bit
applications. See Java SE Supported System Configurations for details.

See also:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/system-configurations.html
http://www.unixville.com/~moazam/2004/06/03.html
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/moazam?entry=why_can_t_i_allocate#comments

HTH,

--Tom


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Tue Jun  6 10:58:08 2006
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 10:58:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
Message-ID: <s4855fce.003@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

Isn't there an "oracle" startup and shutdown script 
already installed and linked with a "K##oracle"? 
If so, you could just 'mv' the link to a lower '##'
like '01'. I understand there may not be one.

>>> Jonathan Kline <klinej at msoe.edu> 06/06/06 8:51 AM >>>
Add the script /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/ as Redhat defaults to run level 3.

On Tuesday 06 June 2006 08:42, Lance Jahnke wrote:
> Hello group. I have been googling for about a week and cannot find
the
> answer to this question. I have Redhat Enterprise Linux 64bit with
> Kernel 2.6.9-34 and need to control the shutdown process. Here is my
> scenario:
> I am using a NetApp filer for storage with my Oracle 10g database
and
> binaries running on the filer connected via NFS. When my computer
> operator does a shutdown from the console via the GUI interface, I
need
> the system to run my Oracle shutdown script first before doing
anything
> else and then continue on with normal shutdown. My CIO doesn't want
the
> operators to run stuff at the command prompt so shelling out to run
my
> script first isn't an option. I created K01ora_stop scripts in
RC0.d,
> RC1.d, RC5.d, RC6.d and this has no effect. NFS still gets dumped
before
> Oracle which creates obvious issues. Any suggestions would be
greatly
> appreciated. Thanks.





From ddezurik at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  6 12:15:22 2006
From: ddezurik at yahoo.com (Damien DeZurik)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
In-Reply-To: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>
Message-ID: <20060606171522.12001.qmail@web37203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

-??y?.?????y??z?.???j?e?
.????h?j?'i??}????h?)???e????&zZ ??\?i???-???[a??!!????.???????)?]?????????{azz??x???n??0?????^B0?Y\j????
.?????!zYm??l???y?b??h?WHv???z0i?.??^m?Z?*+?z??W?z^^??^???m?(??Z???~?^??^?????-???j????????????+nj???6?????("??Lz???k?b????j?zX??y?,?Jr????%?	b????)????I??N??u???w??M:???????r?\??%??QB??(n??0???q?,?x?J??x7??x??????,??+??e??(6??jWb??(6??jY????)?j?"??-????Mi??'???{]????????)rN)????F????b?K)js,?|?z?b?G(??????{]y?+j?????z?b??????y?)js,?|?z?b?Ah?Z0y?(?????ez???????????????)????f??+r??{~??}??? +??\?Z+?)??^??????y?????H??nb?]"?]??wb?'??*'?w???+??H???m???? ?)?~??n??k????q???????ay???????b????????Z??^v?{^????????z????+a)??z]??~???y?hr????m??!??h?zk????w?z+&?????????????^?
i~)^??+??+j???f???rW??Z??????u??j??????)??{ay??z?(?w???o??EIh^?l??jn?????????????v?'~?&???{(???j?^B"???}?"w?v?^?+-zkh??????rW???]?	?r????????~??v?????????ly????r???{??|"???f???v?'3 ?9??{pj{m??)z????-??????}?m??(?f?v????l??^?X????????l?r?????????????b?r???y???????)?????"??u?u?u?u??????'???y?M+-?Y`z??j^u???????%{br+y?^????????.z?'?????-??????u??????&??????^u8Z?K?1???x??L?y?j?%???????????(??\??%??f?X??+?m???j)fjy??)?????f??f??X??)???\??%??g{ij?@?t?-?mi?fz{pj????y?.m???j)fjy??)???????z???_?r[??+-??mi?fz{l?m4?N???={]t??????g??f
From bhartm at visi.com  Tue Jun  6 17:43:56 2006
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client
In-Reply-To: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4486052C.5010201@visi.com>

I think VLC media player can do it.
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/


Damien DeZurik wrote:

>Hi,
>
> I am looking for a command line streaming client that can hook up to a live365 mp3 audio stream.  The client will be on a system that is not running X.  Cookies need to be set on a login page before the stream will start.  I tried using wget to hit that login page and force a post of the uname/passwd and I got it to successfully log in and, more importantly, set those cookies. I found I can then use mplayer to hook directly to the stream URL and read cookies from the same cookie file that wget had generated.  It is not working as I had hoped; when the audio starts I get a recorded message in place of the stream saying, "you must first log in...".  It is possible that a session is broken when I switch from wget to mplayer.  So I have a couple of questions if anyone has any advice.
>
>1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?
>
>2. Does anyone know of any other command line, no GUI required, streaming clients at all regardless of if you think they will work in this scenario?
>
>Thanks!!
>
>Damien
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>  
>


From bhartm at visi.com  Tue Jun  6 17:53:02 2006
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:53:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client
In-Reply-To: <4486052C.5010201@visi.com>
References: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4486052C.5010201@visi.com>
Message-ID: <4486074E.5@visi.com>

Better Link!
http://www.videolan.org/doc/play-howto/en/ch04.html#id291893

Bob Hartmann wrote:

>I think VLC media player can do it.
>http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
>
>
>Damien DeZurik wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I am looking for a command line streaming client that can hook up to a live365 mp3 audio stream.  The client will be on a system that is not running X.  Cookies need to be set on a login page before the stream will start.  I tried using wget to hit that login page and force a post of the uname/passwd and I got it to successfully log in and, more importantly, set those cookies. I found I can then use mplayer to hook directly to the stream URL and read cookies from the same cookie file that wget had generated.  It is not working as I had hoped; when the audio starts I get a recorded message in place of the stream saying, "you must first log in...".  It is possible that a session is broken when I switch from wget to mplayer.  So I have a couple of questions if anyone has any advice.
>>
>>1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?
>>
>>2. Does anyone know of any other command line, no GUI required, streaming clients at all regardless of if you think they will work in this scenario?
>>
>>Thanks!!
>>
>>Damien
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>  
>


From rhavenn at rhavenn.net  Tue Jun  6 18:18:00 2006
From: rhavenn at rhavenn.net (Henrik Hudson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:18:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
Message-ID: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>

Hey Guys / Gals-

I'm looking for a new laptop with a 17" screen and NOT an ATI chipset. The one 
I found that I'm rather partial to is the HP dv8000t (core duo and a Nvidia 
GPU). I checked out the usual places on-line and haven't really found any 
yeahs / nays as to whether it will run just fine.

fine = working X, network and wireless and sound. Don't care about the modem, 
bluetooth and 3D-accel under X..although the binary Nvidia drivers should 
work for that, and other misc. hardware.

Ideally, I'd run FreeBSD on it, but if need be Gentoo or Kubuntu would be 
fine.

Thanks.

Henrik
-- 
Henrik Hudson
rhavenn at rhavenn.net
------------------------------
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who
 understand binary and those who don't..."


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Tue Jun  6 18:48:46 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:48:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] local person who is good at laptop repair? compaq
 presario 700 hinge problem.... plus some thermal paste to add to the cpu...
Message-ID: <4486145E.9050000@mchsi.com>

Hi all,
	I write this message in hopes of finding a local hardware guy who is 
good at working on the internals of laptops. I have a presario 700 with 
the dreaded hinge problem, the display will not stand up; it falls right 
over and you have to put books behind it to get it to stand up..  also, 
the athlon 1600+ never should have been put  in there by compaq, it puts 
out enough heat to keep me warm in january, so every time i compile 
something big it just shuts off. I know I need to get some better 
thermal paste on the cpu, but again, I really don't want to try to open 
it myself... desktops, sure i'll rip any one apart, but laptops... 
especially ones that are still somewhat usuable / worth some money... i 
am not so sure I want to rip that apart. So, if anyone out there has 
experience with laptop repair or modification, please get back to me, 
hopefully we can work out something. Compaq wants more than it's worth 
just to fix the hinges, and that wouldn't fix the thermal paste problem 
anyway...

Nick

http://npt.ath.cx

"all unix, all the time."


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Jun  6 18:26:49 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 18:26:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606061824160.2277@Rooster>

> I'm looking for a new laptop with a 17" screen and NOT an ATI chipset.
...
> Don't care about the [...] 3D-accel under X
...
> Ideally, I'd run FreeBSD on it,

Ok... if you don't care about accelerated X, why don't you want an nvidia 
chipset?

I was going to say get a 17" MacBookPro - it's dual-core and already runs 
a FreeBSD derivative... I /think/ they use an Intel GPU, and not an ATI. 
Old Powerbooks used nVidia.


-Yaron

--


From s.earl.martin at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 20:41:03 2006
From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 20:41:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client
In-Reply-To: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060606033617.62344.qmail@web37202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d9a50e890606061841q16446935la6a0b5df3bb55752@mail.gmail.com>

(I may or may not have botched my original attempt to send this... If
I ended up sending duplicates, I apologize)

> 1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?

A little trial and error, combined with firefox and ethereal, led to
the following *ugly* one-liner.  Substitute your username, password,
and the stationid you care about, and you *should* soon hear streaming
music...

$ mplayer `wget -q --save-cookies=cookies.txt --keep-session-cookies
--post-data="membername=username&password=password"
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/login.cgi && wget -q --load-cookies
cookies.txt --output-document=play.pls
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/play.pls?stationid=297252 && sed -n
'/^File1/p' < play.pls | sed 's/^File1=//'`


HTH,

sm


From jeremy at rosengren.org  Tue Jun  6 21:04:35 2006
From: jeremy at rosengren.org (Jeremy Rosengren)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:04:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606061824160.2277@Rooster>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606061824160.2277@Rooster>
Message-ID: <44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>

Yaron wrote:
> I was going to say get a 17" MacBookPro - it's dual-core and already runs 
> a FreeBSD derivative... I /think/ they use an Intel GPU, and not an ATI. 
> Old Powerbooks used nVidia.
>   
The Macbook Pro's use an ATI 1600 GPU, whereas the Macbook non-Pros use
an Intel shared memory GPU.

-- jeremy


From ddezurik at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  6 21:26:10 2006
From: ddezurik at yahoo.com (Damien DeZurik)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client
In-Reply-To: <d9a50e890606061841q16446935la6a0b5df3bb55752@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060607022610.94500.qmail@web37215.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sam, 
 
  That did it.  Thank you so much!!!
 
 Damien

----- Original Message ----
From: Sam Martin <s.earl.martin at gmail.com>
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 6, 2006 7:41:03 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] X-less streaming client

(I may or may not have botched my original attempt to send this... If
I ended up sending duplicates, I apologize)

> 1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?

A little trial and error, combined with firefox and ethereal, led to
the following *ugly* one-liner.  Substitute your username, password,
and the stationid you care about, and you *should* soon hear streaming
music...

$ mplayer `wget -q --save-cookies=cookies.txt --keep-session-cookies
--post-data="membername=username&password=password"
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/login.cgi && wget -q --load-cookies
cookies.txt --output-document=play.pls
http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/play.pls?stationid=297252 && sed -n
'/^File1/p' < play.pls | sed 's/^File1=//'`


HTH,

sm

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
 
 
 
 
 >Damien DeZurik wrote:
 >
 >>Hi,
 >>
 >>I am looking for a command line streaming client that can hook up to a live365 mp3 audio stream.  The client will be on a system that is not running X.  Cookies need to be set on a login page before the stream will start.  I tried using wget to hit that login page and force a post of the uname/passwd and I got it to successfully log in and, more importantly, set those cookies. I found I can then use mplayer to hook directly to the stream URL and read cookies from the same cookie file that wget had generated.  It is not working as I had hoped; when the audio starts I get a recorded message in place of the stream saying, "you must first log in...".  It is possible that a session is broken when I switch from wget to mplayer.  So I have a couple of questions if anyone has any advice.
 >>
 >>1. Anyone successfully scripted automatically firing up a live 365 stream using command line tools and if so, any tips?
 >>
 >>2. Does anyone know of any other command line, no GUI required, streaming clients at all regardless of if you think they will work in this scenario?
 >>
 >>Thanks!!
 >>
 >>Damien
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>_______________________________________________
 >>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
 >>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
 >>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jun  7 01:20:22 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 01:20:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] successful Xubuntu installation
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606070047540.18522@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

The desktop installer was buggy, so it took me about 8 tries to get it 
right.  Maybe the alternative installer would have worked better, but I 
did get this one to work.  The workarounds aren't hard once you know what 
they are.  After I got it all figured out (that took a day or so), the 
total time to do the installation was probably about 1 hour, but only 
about 30 minutes of my time was needed.

I was installing Xubuntu as the sole OS on an Intel Compaq machine that is 
a few years old.  This is what I did to get it to work:

(1) Use gparted live CD to partition the HDD:

http://gparted.sourceforge.net/livecd.php

I made a 500 MB partition for linux-swap and the remaining volume went to 
an ext2 partition.  If I used ext3 instead, the installer crashed.  When I 
used gparted within Xubuntu to partition, it crashed the installer.  This 
is why I am recommending the gparted live CD.

(2) Reboot with the Xubuntu CD in the CD drive.

(3) Wait for the desktop to appear (could take a few minutes).

(4) Turn off the screen saver (I was told it can cause problems).
 	(a) right click on desktop and wait for a menu to appear
 	(b) choose "Settings" in the menu and "Settings Manage" under that
 	(c) click on the Screensaver icon
 	(d) in the upper right "mode" menu, choose "Disable Screensaver"
 	(e) click the 'x' in the upper right of the windows to kill them

(5) Right click the Install icon on the desktop and choose "Execute" from 
the menu that appears (normal clicking or double clicking the icon did not 
work for me).

(6) Follow the simple instructions until you get to the partitioning stage

(7) In the menu for the partition manager choose "manually edit" and click 
"forward" until you get to the menu for mounting.  Leave the check marks 
on for "Reformat?" in your HDD partitions.  This must be done because of a 
bug in the installer.

(8) Let the installer do the installing.  It will take a while (30 minutes 
for me).

(9) You can choose to restart when it has completed, but for me it did not 
restart correctly and I had to power down.  When I turned the power back 
on it booted normally and the system looks fine.


So far it is looking great.  The network is working.  I'm glad I did it.

But I'll say this:  If they really want this thing to take off and they 
want ordinary people to use Ubuntu, they *really* have to make the 
installation work as well as they possibly can.  The installer does a 
great job of getting things working, but it is way more bug-ridden than it 
should be.  The bugs are not just annoying and they would definitely stop 
many people from completing the installation.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jun  7 08:48:40 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 08:48:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] best auto responder
Message-ID: <1149688120.6577.8.camel@project-1.tamray.com>

I need to set up an auto responder for some mail accounts. I see that
sendmail used to package vacation, maybe they still do, but I am not
finding it. I tried a couple that could be used through squirrel-mail,
but sendmail is not happy with them. What would be an easy to configure
solution? I am using a FC4 box for mail.


Raymond






From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 09:47:08 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:47:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Call for help - can't get an open port
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606070747r5a2551c1q2ebf7e11545e2f53@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry if this sounds n00bish, but really, I'm stymied.

I have ports 65000-65200 forwarded from my modem to the upstairs router, and
from there to my machine.  Using Firestarter, I set a policy to allow those
ports.  Bittornado still gives me a yellow light, and checking on the
Shields Up page still shows those ports as closed (not stealth, closed),
even when turning Firestarter off.

FWIW: I inherited this router (and the .100 IP) from my old roommate, and
all the port settings along with it.  They worked for him until the day he
moved out (so I know it's not Qwest trying to choke me off).  But this has
been an ongoing problem for me since installing Linux.  I haven't had an
open port in eight months.

What am I not doing here?  Any advice would be totally appreciated.

-pete
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From shanson at cruiskeenconsulting.com  Tue Jun  6 17:18:52 2006
From: shanson at cruiskeenconsulting.com (Steve Hanson)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 17:18:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] how to change mailman group id
In-Reply-To: <51587.204.212.34.10.1149561699.squirrel@lctn.org>
References: <51587.204.212.34.10.1149561699.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <4485FF4C.6010309@cruiskeenconsulting.com>

Raymond Norton wrote:
> I am getting the following error when attempting to access the mailman
> alias on my server. How can I change the group id to something that exist
> on my server?
>
>
> Mailman CGI error!!!
> The Mailman CGI wrapper encountered a fatal error. This entry is being
> stored in your syslog:
> Failure to lookup via getgrgid() the group info for group id -1 that this
> Mailman CGI wrapper is executing under.
> This is probably due to an incorrectly configured system and is not a
> Mailman problem
>
>
>   
The only way to fix this properly is to rebuild Mailman with the user
and group set properly for whatever your mail MTA is.

-- 
Steve Hanson
Principal Consultant
Cruiskeen Consulting LLC - http://www.cruiskeenconsulting.com

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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jun  7 09:27:02 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:27:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606061824160.2277@Rooster>
	<44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606070924330.2593@Rooster>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Jeremy Rosengren wrote:

> The Macbook Pro's use an ATI 1600 GPU, whereas the Macbook non-Pros use
> an Intel shared memory GPU.

...close enough (; that's one of the reasons I asked why he's opposed to 
ATI graphics. I also had the feeling that the MBP has an ATI, which is why 
I said I was /going/ to suggest one... either way, much as I'd never have 
believed I'd ever say this a few years ago, Apple makes some excellent 
UNIX boxes.


-Yaron

--


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Wed Jun  7 12:30:46 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:30:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Several years ago, when I first tried to join this email list, I couldn't use my yahoo mail address.  Something about a group vote that banned all yahoo mail accounts supposedly because of spam coming from/thru yahoo.

For quite a while, I just skipped reading the tclug list because it was difficult to access via my home e-mail account.  Recently I have been using my corporate e-mail account.  I don't like using my employer's e-mail account for personal use, not to mention the logistics of carrying on an e-mail conversations using 2 different accounts is nearly impossible, therefore I put forth this resolution:

Since:
1) Yahoo has put much effort in preventing spammers from going through their e-mail portal, including requiring interpretation of graphical images (i.e. "Enter the words shown below") on both registering for an account and sending suspicious e-mails.
2) Most junk mail with a yahoo return address isn't really from yahoo (check the headers if you want to find the real source).
3) Limiting mail from only list members should prevent most spam from getting through.
4) Since spammers also have the possibility of using other services, banning just yahoo accounts is prejudicial.  AOL is now selling spam so if anything, they should be banned too.
5) TCLUG's mailing list should be available to all.

Be it resolved:
I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.

Yes, for those of you who are about to tell me to use google, I do have a gmail account, but it's easier for people to type wdtj at yahoo.com than waynedtjohnson at gmail.com, besides everyone else uses my yahoo account so why switch.

Since the installfest, I've had people contacting me on both yahoo as well as my mqsoftware e-mail and it's driving me crazy!!  Please help!

Wayne Johnson
Senior Software Engineer
MQSoftware, Inc.
1660 S Highway 100
Minneapolis, MN 55416
(952) 345-8628



From jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 12:36:57 2006
From: jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com (Jeff Rasmussen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:36:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Call for help - can't get an open port
In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0606070747r5a2551c1q2ebf7e11545e2f53@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606070747r5a2551c1q2ebf7e11545e2f53@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9d6c82530606071036l50cd3912ic3b8ae44953c9a@mail.gmail.com>

What is the IP address path for the traffic:

I'm not very good at this but does your network look something like this?

Public_IP_Address => Modem => 192.168.0.* => Upstairs Router =>
192.168.1.* => Linux_machine_IP

You may have multiple NAT devices changing the IP address and you would have
to configure each one to forward the traffic.

You can also see what ports are opened using Shields-Up to scan every port
(make sure you own the network device you are testing)

https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2

-- 
Jeff Rasmussen
GPG public key 0x9686C12F
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From nate at refried.org  Wed Jun  7 12:49:05 2006
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:49:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
In-Reply-To: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>
References: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E4588021985F1@other.datalink.com>
Message-ID: <20060607174905.GA32512@refried.org>

On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:42:56AM -0500, Lance Jahnke wrote:
> Hello group. I have been googling for about a week and cannot find the
> answer to this question. I have Redhat Enterprise Linux 64bit with
> Kernel 2.6.9-34 and need to control the shutdown process. 

Why not take advantage of the support Red Hat gives you for subscribing
to RHEL?

> Here is my scenario:
...
> script first isn't an option. I created K01ora_stop scripts in RC0.d,
> RC1.d, RC5.d, RC6.d and this has no effect. NFS still gets dumped before
> Oracle which creates obvious issues. Any suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks. 

You should read the file /usr/share/doc/initscripts-*/sysvinitfiles.
It'll teach you how to write an init script and how to make it work with
the Red Hat tools chkconfig and service so it works with all of the
other init scripts.

Nate


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Wed Jun  7 12:56:23 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:56:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] do you have hardware you don't want to pay to have
 thrown away? (I missed the installfest, so...)
Message-ID: <44871347.4020300@mchsi.com>

Hi,
  Well, it's me again, your friendly lug-neighborhood old hardware 
packrat. Anyway, if you have hardware you do not want anymore 
*ESPECIALLY* if it's non intel (sgi's, sparc's, hppa (hp ux boxes),
ibm AIX machines, etc.) Anyway hardware, ALL intel included will be 
wanted most likely. I am looking into if there is some way to setup a 
foundation for fixing up the intel hardware and distributing it to 
schools, churches, poor kids, etc. and if that's the case, not only will 
linux spread to them, but so will the internet and everything about it. 
But I am getting beyond myself now. Point is, if you want it gone, email 
me and we will work it out. Most likely I can drive to your house and 
pick it up. No fuss, no muss. Updates about non profit status and tax 
credits will be posted to the list later. Anyway, thanks again for 
listening guys...


Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jun  7 14:02:50 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:02:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606071359150.3044@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Wayne Johnson wrote:

> Several years ago, when I first tried to join this email list, I 
> couldn't use my yahoo mail address.  Something about a group vote that 
> banned all yahoo mail accounts supposedly because of spam coming 
> from/thru yahoo.
>
> For quite a while, I just skipped reading the tclug list because it was 
> difficult to access via my home e-mail account.  Recently I have been 
> using my corporate e-mail account.  I don't like using my employer's 
> e-mail account for personal use, not to mention the logistics of 
> carrying on an e-mail conversations using 2 different accounts is nearly 
> impossible, therefore I put forth this resolution:
>
> Since:
> 1) Yahoo has put much effort in preventing spammers from going through their e-mail portal, including requiring interpretation of graphical images (i.e. "Enter the words shown below") on both registering for an account and sending suspicious e-mails.
> 2) Most junk mail with a yahoo return address isn't really from yahoo (check the headers if you want to find the real source).
> 3) Limiting mail from only list members should prevent most spam from getting through.
> 4) Since spammers also have the possibility of using other services, banning just yahoo accounts is prejudicial.  AOL is now selling spam so if anything, they should be banned too.
> 5) TCLUG's mailing list should be available to all.
>
> Be it resolved:
> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.


I don't know what the formal process is, but I would vote in favor of your 
resolution.  Also, note that Yahoo Mail (Beta) came in at #30 on PC 
World's Best Products of the Year a few days ago:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,125706,pg,13,00.asp

Isn't our list limited to subscribers only?  Doesn't that kill most spam? 
I have my own spam filter anyway.

Mike


From rhavenn at rhavenn.net  Wed Jun  7 15:12:08 2006
From: rhavenn at rhavenn.net (Henrik Hudson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:12:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606070924330.2593@Rooster>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606070924330.2593@Rooster>
Message-ID: <200606071512.09424.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>

On Wednesday 07 June 2006 09:27, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> sent a missive 
stating: 
> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006, Jeremy Rosengren wrote:
> > The Macbook Pro's use an ATI 1600 GPU, whereas the Macbook non-Pros use
> > an Intel shared memory GPU.
>
> ...close enough (; that's one of the reasons I asked why he's opposed to
> ATI graphics. I also had the feeling that the MBP has an ATI, which is why
> I said I was /going/ to suggest one... either way, much as I'd never have
> believed I'd ever say this a few years ago, Apple makes some excellent
> UNIX boxes.
>

It's more of a religious thing. Although, ATI makes okay Linux drivers..they 
have nil support for BSD (my preferred OS) and I just like backing Nvidia.

The Macbooks are gorgeous, but their feature set which justifies the price is 
mostly only available under OS X and as much as I love OS X..I much prefer 
XFCE as a manager and don't want to get away from Xorg.

Thanks for the input.

Henrik
-- 
Henrik Hudson
rhavenn at rhavenn.net
------------------------------
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who
 understand binary and those who don't..."


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jun  7 14:26:28 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:26:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <200606071512.09424.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606070924330.2593@Rooster>
	<200606071512.09424.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606071422560.2593@Rooster>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Henrik Hudson wrote:

> It's more of a religious thing. Although, ATI makes okay Linux drivers..they
> have nil support for BSD (my preferred OS) and I just like backing Nvidia.

Yeah, but if you're not going to use acceleration, and you're using the 
xorg drivers... those works just fine on ATI. I've got Linux/X on my 
ThinkPad and heck, 3D is pretty fast, too.

Anyway... just sayin'


-Yaron

--


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Wed Jun  7 15:40:59 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:40:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] do you have hardware you don't want to pay to have
	thrown away? (I missed the installfest, so...)
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF508@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

You might want to check out http://www.pcsforschools.org/

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of nick thompson
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:56 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: [tclug-list] do you have hardware you don't want to pay to have
thrown away? (I missed the installfest, so...)


Hi,
  Well, it's me again, your friendly lug-neighborhood old hardware 
packrat. Anyway, if you have hardware you do not want anymore 
*ESPECIALLY* if it's non intel (sgi's, sparc's, hppa (hp ux boxes),
ibm AIX machines, etc.) Anyway hardware, ALL intel included will be 
wanted most likely. I am looking into if there is some way to setup a 
foundation for fixing up the intel hardware and distributing it to 
schools, churches, poor kids, etc. and if that's the case, not only will 
linux spread to them, but so will the internet and everything about it. 
But I am getting beyond myself now. Point is, if you want it gone, email 
me and we will work it out. Most likely I can drive to your house and 
pick it up. No fuss, no muss. Updates about non profit status and tax 
credits will be posted to the list later. Anyway, thanks again for 
listening guys...


Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 15:46:21 2006
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:46:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020606071346g590efda4o5ac5f94cef3925fc@mail.gmail.com>

I should read the entire e-mail...guess you can ignore the gmail invite. :p

The worst thing that can happen is yahoo has to be added back to the
ban, so my feeling is it's worth a shot.


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 15:51:46 2006
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:51:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Call for help - can't get an open port
In-Reply-To: <9d6c82530606071036l50cd3912ic3b8ae44953c9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606070747r5a2551c1q2ebf7e11545e2f53@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d6c82530606071036l50cd3912ic3b8ae44953c9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020606071351p12ed545sbab8aae8d1830212@mail.gmail.com>

On your local machine you can try running iptables -L to see if you
have any firewall rules defined on the local machine.


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From ljahnke at DATALINK.com  Wed Jun  7 16:10:53 2006
From: ljahnke at DATALINK.com (Lance Jahnke)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:10:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing
Message-ID: <112A28858545FE43807DEEA6509E45880219894D@other.datalink.com>

RTFM worked. Thanks


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Nate Straz
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:49 PM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] RHEL 4.x Shutdown Processing

On Tue, Jun 06, 2006 at 08:42:56AM -0500, Lance Jahnke wrote:
> Hello group. I have been googling for about a week and cannot find the
> answer to this question. I have Redhat Enterprise Linux 64bit with
> Kernel 2.6.9-34 and need to control the shutdown process. 

Why not take advantage of the support Red Hat gives you for subscribing
to RHEL?

> Here is my scenario:
...
> script first isn't an option. I created K01ora_stop scripts in RC0.d,
> RC1.d, RC5.d, RC6.d and this has no effect. NFS still gets dumped
before
> Oracle which creates obvious issues. Any suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks. 

You should read the file /usr/share/doc/initscripts-*/sysvinitfiles.
It'll teach you how to write an init script and how to make it work with
the Red Hat tools chkconfig and service so it works with all of the
other init scripts.

Nate

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Jun  7 16:54:35 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:54:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hp or other core-duo laptop?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606071422560.2593@Rooster>
References: <200606061818.00361.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<44863433.5000400@rosengren.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606070924330.2593@Rooster>
	<200606071512.09424.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606071422560.2593@Rooster>
Message-ID: <20060607215435.GS7905@iucha.net>

On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 02:26:28PM -0500, Yaron wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Henrik Hudson wrote:
> 
> > It's more of a religious thing. Although, ATI makes okay Linux drivers..they
> > have nil support for BSD (my preferred OS) and I just like backing Nvidia.
> 
> Yeah, but if you're not going to use acceleration, and you're using the 
> xorg drivers... those works just fine on ATI. I've got Linux/X on my 
> ThinkPad and heck, 3D is pretty fast, too.

The X1K graphics drivers are not supported by either free or closed
source drivers at the moment. Unless you really need high performance
drivers, stick with Intel embedded graphics.

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From nate at ima.umn.edu  Wed Jun  7 22:11:13 2006
From: nate at ima.umn.edu (Nate Sanders)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:11:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Nagios
Message-ID: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>

Any one got a quick pointer on the difference between Nagios 1.x and 
2.x? I seem to fail to find any specifics on their website.

-- 
==============================================
Nate Sanders                  nate at ima.umn.edu
Associate Systems Manager     (612) 624 - 4353
           http://www.ima.umn.edu/
==============================================
Institute for Mathematics and its Applications
University of Minnesota
400 Lind Hall, 207 Church St. SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455-0463
============================================== 




From rhavenn at rhavenn.net  Wed Jun  7 22:45:29 2006
From: rhavenn at rhavenn.net (Henrik Hudson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 22:45:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Nagios
In-Reply-To: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>
References: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200606072245.30475.rhavenn@rhavenn.net>

On Wednesday 07 June 2006 22:11, Nate Sanders <nate at ima.umn.edu> sent a 
missive stating: 
> Any one got a quick pointer on the difference between Nagios 1.x and
> 2.x? I seem to fail to find any specifics on their website.

I believe they just did a re-write of the code and of the plugin architecture 
and made it easier to "add" features, plug-ins, etc....

Henrik
-- 
Henrik Hudson
rhavenn at rhavenn.net
------------------------------
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who
 understand binary and those who don't..."


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Wed Jun  7 23:06:16 2006
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:06:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Nagios
In-Reply-To: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>
References: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606072305400.4599@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Nate Sanders wrote:
> Any one got a quick pointer on the difference between Nagios 1.x and 
> 2.x? I seem to fail to find any specifics on their website.

it's basically a rewrite; 2.x has a much nicer (imho) configuration 
system. Much more flexible.

If it's a new Nagios deployment, no reason not to go 2.x.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nate at ima.umn.edu  Thu Jun  8 09:13:39 2006
From: nate at ima.umn.edu (Nate Sanders)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:13:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Nagios
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606072305400.4599@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <44879551.4060308@ima.umn.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606072305400.4599@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <44883093.8080201@ima.umn.edu>

Makes simple sense. Thanks.


Nate Carlson wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jun 2006, Nate Sanders wrote:
>
>> Any one got a quick pointer on the difference between Nagios 1.x and
>> 2.x? I seem to fail to find any specifics on their website.
>
>
> it's basically a rewrite; 2.x has a much nicer (imho) configuration
> system. Much more flexible.
>
> If it's a new Nagios deployment, no reason not to go 2.x.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
> |       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------



-- 
==============================================
Nate Sanders                  nate at ima.umn.edu
Associate Systems Manager     (612) 624 - 4353
           http://www.ima.umn.edu/
==============================================
Institute for Mathematics and its Applications
University of Minnesota
400 Lind Hall, 207 Church St. SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455-0463
============================================== 




From emon at nerdshack.com  Thu Jun  8 14:15:10 2006
From: emon at nerdshack.com (Emon)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:15:10 +0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Thunderbird date format problem
Message-ID: <4488773E.3070305@nerdshack.com>

Hi all

I have just joined the list  :-)

Here is my problem,

I am newbie running Slackware10.2 with KDE desktop.

I have long since upgraded to "mozilla-thunderbird-1.5-i686-1jim" which
I downloaded from <linuxpackges.net>

I want to change the date format of thunderbird to the default format
that I have configured for KDE (SHORTWEEKDAY-DD-SHORTMONTH-YY). My dates
show up as Tue-07-Jun-06. Basically I get confused between date & month
so I at lest like to keep one of them in words.

I did a bit of searching & found this site

kb.mozillazine.org/Date_display_format

My first question is why did all the pages that I came across, referred
to this (user.js) file? I did not find any such file, but I did  find
something called "prefs.js" /in/my/home/.thunderbird which seems to have
the same function.

So I added a line to the file (prefs.js) as per the instruction on
the page

user_pref("mail.ui.display.dateformat.default", 1);

it was supposed to show me time like this

Friday, December 31 2003 10:23 AM

but unfortunately it had no effect!! the date format remained as it was
before (06/07/2006 12:30 PM).

Then I installed this (configdate-0.3.6-tb.xpi) extension, which (as I
realized later) just automates the above mentioned process; and it also
had no effect (no surprise there I guess).

My dates (in thunderbird) keep showing as 06/07/2006 12:30 PM

I did check the /patch section for Slackware10.2 at <slackware.com> & it
 had mozilla-thunderbird-1.0.7
Could it be possible that thunderbird-1.5 is not compatible with
Slackware10.2 ?? or am I doing something wrong??

Oh! I am also using a custom compiled 2.6.13 kernel & my Location is KDE
is Bangladesh... could that have anything to with this all??

Thanks
Emon




From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Fri Jun  9 07:52:55 2006
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (Mark Browne)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 07:52:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux CNC
Message-ID: <000301c68bc3$a11ca350$1202a8c0@AMD64>

Does anyone on the group have any experience with Linux CNC?

http://www.linuxcnc.org/

 

Mark Browne

 

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From jkjones at tcq.net  Fri Jun  9 08:46:49 2006
From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 08:46:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux CNC
In-Reply-To: <000301c68bc3$a11ca350$1202a8c0@AMD64>
References: <000301c68bc3$a11ca350$1202a8c0@AMD64>
Message-ID: <44897BC9.7050203@tcq.net>

Mark Browne wrote:

> Does anyone on the group have any experience with Linux CNC?
>
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/
>
>  
>
> Mark Browne
>
>  
>
No, but it looks like fun.

Kraig



From patrickm at citilink.com  Fri Jun  9 13:26:24 2006
From: patrickm at citilink.com (Patrick McCabe)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:26:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] apt-get from cdrom
In-Reply-To: <44871347.4020300@mchsi.com>
References: <44871347.4020300@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <4489BD50.2030808@citilink.com>

I have 4 kubuntu breezy systems that I want to upgrade to dapper. I 
thought I could get the install CD and use it as an apt source so I 
could get most of the new stuff off the CD rather than the net. I ran 
apt-cdrom and I see the entry at the top of sources.list. I changed 
'breezy' to 'dapper' in sources.list, and ran apt-get update and apt-get 
dist-upgrade. It seems to be pulling everything off the net. Have I done 
something wrong or was this a dumb idea to begin with? I am by no means 
an apt expert.

Thanks,
Patrick McCabe


From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 14:48:09 2006
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (42dch42)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 14:48:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Thunderbird date format problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1149872403.30755.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.9.1149872403.30755.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4489D079.7000309@gmail.com>

Emon wrote:

> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 01:15:10 +0600
> From: Emon <emon at nerdshack.com>
> Subject: [tclug-list] Thunderbird date format problem
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID: <4488773E.3070305 at nerdshack.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Hi all
> 
> I have just joined the list  :-)
> 
> Here is my problem,
> 
> I am newbie running Slackware10.2 with KDE desktop.
> 
> I have long since upgraded to "mozilla-thunderbird-1.5-i686-1jim" which
> I downloaded from <linuxpackges.net>
> 
> I want to change the date format of thunderbird to the default format
> that I have configured for KDE (SHORTWEEKDAY-DD-SHORTMONTH-YY). My dates
> show up as Tue-07-Jun-06. Basically I get confused between date & month
> so I at lest like to keep one of them in words.
> 
> I did a bit of searching & found this site
> 
> kb.mozillazine.org/Date_display_format
> 
> My first question is why did all the pages that I came across, referred
> to this (user.js) file? I did not find any such file, but I did  find
> something called "prefs.js" /in/my/home/.thunderbird which seems to have
> the same function.
> 
> So I added a line to the file (prefs.js) as per the instruction on
> the page
> 
> user_pref("mail.ui.display.dateformat.default", 1);
> 
> it was supposed to show me time like this
> 
> Friday, December 31 2003 10:23 AM
> 
> but unfortunately it had no effect!! the date format remained as it was
> before (06/07/2006 12:30 PM).
> 
> Then I installed this (configdate-0.3.6-tb.xpi) extension, which (as I
> realized later) just automates the above mentioned process; and it also
> had no effect (no surprise there I guess).
> 
> My dates (in thunderbird) keep showing as 06/07/2006 12:30 PM
> 
> I did check the /patch section for Slackware10.2 at <slackware.com> & it
>  had mozilla-thunderbird-1.0.7
> Could it be possible that thunderbird-1.5 is not compatible with
> Slackware10.2 ?? or am I doing something wrong??
> 
> Oh! I am also using a custom compiled 2.6.13 kernel & my Location is KDE
> is Bangladesh... could that have anything to with this all??
> 
> Thanks
> Emon
> 

You need to create the user.js file.
1. Fire up favorite text editor
2. Type in user_pref("mail.ui.display.dateformat.default", 1);
   as per instructions.(I haven't used that particular pref so don't

   know if it will do what you want)
3. Save as user.js in same directory as prefs.js

user.js is not created at install and prefs.js is overwritten at
thunderbird shutdown so no point in adding prefs there.

hth
harv


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 16:58:29 2006
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 16:58:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Call for help - can't get an open port
In-Reply-To: <9d6c82530606071036l50cd3912ic3b8ae44953c9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f729feb0606070747r5a2551c1q2ebf7e11545e2f53@mail.gmail.com>
	<9d6c82530606071036l50cd3912ic3b8ae44953c9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f729feb0606091458i46b7990bid8ba6a1bedbb63a4@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I've spent the last three days R-ing TFM, and back and forth on the
phone w/Qwest and Actiontec, and it sounds like I've just got a bum modem.
I'm running DMZ right now, sans the second router, which finally got me an
open port.  But the guy at Actiontec suggested I get a new modem, because
all my settings were indeed right, and there's no reason I shouldn't have
had open ports.  That was a lot of work to find out that I was doing it
right, but damn, I learned a lot about networking this week!

Thanks, all, for the advice!

-p.


On 6/7/06, Jeff Rasmussen < jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is the IP address path for the traffic:
>
> I'm not very good at this but does your network look something like this?
>
>
>
>
> You can also see what ports are opened using Shields-Up to scan every port
> (make sure you own the network device you are testing)
>
> https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2
>
> --
> Jeff Rasmussen
> GPG public key 0x9686C12F
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From pclinux at charter.net  Fri Jun  9 22:22:22 2006
From: pclinux at charter.net (Carl Zeilon)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 22:22:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Thunderbird date format problem
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1149872403.30755.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.9.1149872403.30755.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <448A3AEE.6070004@charter.net>


> Hi all
> 
> I have just joined the list  :-)
> 
> Here is my problem,
> 
> I am newbie running Slackware10.2 with KDE desktop.
> 
> I have long since upgraded to "mozilla-thunderbird-1.5-i686-1jim" which
> I downloaded from <linuxpackges.net>
> 
> I want to change the date format of thunderbird to the default format
> that I have configured for KDE (SHORTWEEKDAY-DD-SHORTMONTH-YY). My dates
> show up as Tue-07-Jun-06. Basically I get confused between date & month
> so I at lest like to keep one of them in words.
> 
> I did a bit of searching & found this site
> 
> kb.mozillazine.org/Date_display_format
> 
> My first question is why did all the pages that I came across, referred
> to this (user.js) file? I did not find any such file, but I did  find
> something called "prefs.js" /in/my/home/.thunderbird which seems to have
> the same function.
> 
> So I added a line to the file (prefs.js) as per the instruction on
> the page
> 
> user_pref("mail.ui.display.dateformat.default", 1);
> 
> it was supposed to show me time like this
> 
> Friday, December 31 2003 10:23 AM
> 
> but unfortunately it had no effect!! the date format remained as it was
> before (06/07/2006 12:30 PM).
> 
> Then I installed this (configdate-0.3.6-tb.xpi) extension, which (as I
> realized later) just automates the above mentioned process; and it also
> had no effect (no surprise there I guess).
> 
> My dates (in thunderbird) keep showing as 06/07/2006 12:30 PM
> 
> I did check the /patch section for Slackware10.2 at <slackware.com> & it
>  had mozilla-thunderbird-1.0.7
> Could it be possible that thunderbird-1.5 is not compatible with
> Slackware10.2 ?? or am I doing something wrong??
> 
> Oh! I am also using a custom compiled 2.6.13 kernel & my Location is KDE
> is Bangladesh... could that have anything to with this all??
> 
> Thanks
> Emon

Welcome,
You need to create the file (user.js) manually.  It doesn't exist by 
default.  Place it in the same folder as  prefs.js   As I understand it, 
prefs.js displays items that are configured within Thunderbird.  Note 
the text & use the URL referenced for more info:
# Mozilla User Preferences

/* Do not edit this file.
  *
  * If you make changes to this file while the application is running,
  * the changes will be overwritten when the application exits.
  *
  * To make a manual change to preferences, you can visit the URL 
about:config
  * For more information, see 
http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html#prefs
  */


You create user.js to control "extra" items not normally changed within 
Thunderbird.  Here is some text from mine:
//
// user.js: Personal prefs which mozilla shouldn't overwrite.
//

// This pref controls the "Advance to next unread message in [x] folder" 
behaviour
// 0 - Always go to the next folder without prompting
// 1 - Ask before going (the default behaviour)
// 2 - Never go to the next folder with unread messages
user_pref("mailnews.nav_crosses_folders", 2);

// Show the user agent of incoming messages
user_pref("mailnews.headers.showUserAgent", true);

I hope this helps,
Carl


From mbditt at plauditdesign.com  Sat Jun 10 13:15:42 2006
From: mbditt at plauditdesign.com (Matt Dittbenner)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:15:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] forcedeth + mii-tool...does it work?
Message-ID: <448B0C4E.6030703@plauditdesign.com>

For those who don't want to read, how to I make mii-tool work with the 
forcedeth driver?

For those who want a bit of background:

I'm currently running a reasonably recent version of Gentoo on one of my 
machines. That machine has an nForce4 board with one of the 2 network 
interfaces being the nForce one. I have had the forcedeth kernel module 
installed for some time, but only brought the interface up within the 
last 2 days. I've never really had any problems in the past with that 
driver on any of my other machines (about 5) but for some reason the 
link-speed autodetect isn't working.

Here are some stats:

# uname -a
Linux silverback 2.6.15.1 #2 Fri Jun 9 09:02:28 CDT 2006 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux

Jun  9 09:09:25 silverback forcedeth.c: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.48.
Jun  9 09:09:25 silverback eth0: forcedeth.c: subsystem: 010f1:2865 bound to 0000:00:0a.0

 # ethtool eth0
Settings for eth0:
        Supported ports: [ MII ]
        Supported link modes:   10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
                                100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
                                1000baseT/Full
        Supports auto-negotiation: Yes
        Advertised link modes:  10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
                                100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
                                1000baseT/Full
        Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes
        Speed: 10Mb/s
        Duplex: Half
        Port: MII
        PHYAD: 1
        Transceiver: externel
        Auto-negotiation: on
        Supports Wake-on: g
        Wake-on: d
        Link detected: no
# mii-tool -V
mii-tool.c 1.9 2000/04/28 00:56:08 (David Hinds)

# mii-tool eth0
SIOCGMIIPHY on 'eth0' failed: Operation not supported


According to my hosting provider, the port I'm on should be 
100baseTx/Full Duplex, but the auto-negotiation for some reason selects 
10Mb Half duplex. Obviously, that means the interface doesn't get to be 
on the network... :(. As you can see, mii-tool isn't working, so I can't 
manually set it to the correct speed and duplex.

I'm pleading...does anyone have an nforce board and can they 
successfully use mii-tool? If so, any help would be REALLY appreciated. 
Even any pointers on how to manually set the link speed or get 
auto-negotiate to work right.

Thanks to you all in advance.

		

	<http://www.plaudit.com/> 	
Matt Dittbenner
*EMAIL* 		mbditt at plauditdesign.com <mailto:mbditt at plauditdesign.com>
*WEB* 		www.plauditdesign.com <http://www.plaudit.com/>
*PHONE* 		651.646.0696
*ADDRESS* 		2470 University Ave.

	St. Paul, MN 55114

	

		

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From mbditt at plauditdesign.com  Sat Jun 10 14:23:48 2006
From: mbditt at plauditdesign.com (Matt Dittbenner)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 14:23:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] forcedeth + mii-tool...does it work?
In-Reply-To: <448B0C4E.6030703@plauditdesign.com>
References: <448B0C4E.6030703@plauditdesign.com>
Message-ID: <448B1C44.5000708@plauditdesign.com>

well, an update. As it turns out, you CAN use ethtool to change the 
settings for the forcedeth driver, even though it says the supported 
ports are MII. I was able to turn off auto-neg and force the speed and 
duplex to the needed values and my network is up and running. Hopefully 
this helps someone.

Matt Dittbenner wrote:
> For those who don't want to read, how to I make mii-tool work with the 
> forcedeth driver?
>
> For those who want a bit of background:
>
> I'm currently running a reasonably recent version of Gentoo on one of 
> my machines. That machine has an nForce4 board with one of the 2 
> network interfaces being the nForce one. I have had the forcedeth 
> kernel module installed for some time, but only brought the interface 
> up within the last 2 days. I've never really had any problems in the 
> past with that driver on any of my other machines (about 5) but for 
> some reason the link-speed autodetect isn't working.
>
> Here are some stats:
> # uname -a
> Linux silverback 2.6.15.1 #2 Fri Jun 9 09:02:28 CDT 2006 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
>
> Jun  9 09:09:25 silverback forcedeth.c: Reverse Engineered nForce ethernet driver. Version 0.48.
> Jun  9 09:09:25 silverback eth0: forcedeth.c: subsystem: 010f1:2865 bound to 0000:00:0a.0
>
>  # ethtool eth0
> Settings for eth0:
>         Supported ports: [ MII ]
>         Supported link modes:   10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
>                                 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
>                                 1000baseT/Full
>         Supports auto-negotiation: Yes
>         Advertised link modes:  10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
>                                 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
>                                 1000baseT/Full
>         Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes
>         Speed: 10Mb/s
>         Duplex: Half
>         Port: MII
>         PHYAD: 1
>         Transceiver: externel
>         Auto-negotiation: on
>         Supports Wake-on: g
>         Wake-on: d
>         Link detected: no
> # mii-tool -V
> mii-tool.c 1.9 2000/04/28 00:56:08 (David Hinds)
>
> # mii-tool eth0
> SIOCGMIIPHY on 'eth0' failed: Operation not supported
>
>   
> According to my hosting provider, the port I'm on should be 
> 100baseTx/Full Duplex, but the auto-negotiation for some reason 
> selects 10Mb Half duplex. Obviously, that means the interface doesn't 
> get to be on the network... :(. As you can see, mii-tool isn't 
> working, so I can't manually set it to the correct speed and duplex.
>
> I'm pleading...does anyone have an nforce board and can they 
> successfully use mii-tool? If so, any help would be REALLY 
> appreciated. Even any pointers on how to manually set the link speed 
> or get auto-negotiate to work right.
>
> Thanks to you all in advance.
>
> 		
>
> 	<http://www.plaudit.com/> 	
> Matt Dittbenner
> *EMAIL* 		mbditt at plauditdesign.com <mailto:mbditt at plauditdesign.com>
> *WEB* 		www.plauditdesign.com <http://www.plaudit.com/>
> *PHONE* 		651.646.0696
> *ADDRESS* 		2470 University Ave.
>
> 	St. Paul, MN 55114
>
> 	
>
> 		
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

-- 
		

	<http://www.plaudit.com/> 	
Matt Dittbenner
*EMAIL* 		mbditt at plauditdesign.com <mailto:mbditt at plauditdesign.com>
*WEB* 		www.plauditdesign.com <http://www.plaudit.com/>
*PHONE* 		651.646.0696
*ADDRESS* 		2470 University Ave.

	St. Paul, MN 55114

	

		

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From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Sat Jun 10 17:46:13 2006
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:46:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200606102246.k5AMkDQ19638@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: SCSI gear, barebone system, misc cards

Cleaning sale - can negotiate, but items were priced from ebay and various vendors, and I think they're reasonable

SCSI equipment

LSI U40SE PCI SCSI card 
9GB IBM SE SCSI HD 
Matsushita 4x CD-R burner 
Plextor 40x CD-ROM 
$25 for all

Tekram DC-390 U2W LVD SCSI card 
Fujitsu 10,000RPM 15GB Ultra160 SCSI HD 
$100 for both

Pentium 3 SMP barebone system
Inwin Q500 full tower case, 300W PS
Tyan Tiger 200 motherboard 
	ATI Rage XL video built in
	2 Integrated 10/100 NICs
	5 PCI/1 AGP slots
	512 MB Crucial CAS2 PC133 RAM
2xP3/1000 CPUs w/ Coolermaster fans
$200 for all

EVGA Geforce4 440MX 64MB AGP video card
$20

SB Live Value PCI sound card
$10

Seagate Barracuda 30GB 7200RPM ATA133 HD
$25

Pioneer 16x DVD/CD reader (slot load, not a caddy drive)
$15

10/100 PCI NIC
free with other items

Seller Email address: ntraxler at mn dot rr dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From wilson at visi.com  Sun Jun 11 13:54:30 2006
From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 13:54:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
Message-ID: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com>

Hey everyone,

I've been busy learning the ins and outs of nagios for a week or so.  
We've got it running at school, and I've set it up at home to monitor  
various devices around the house. One thing I'd definitely like to  
monitor is my VoIP connection to Vonage.

I seriously doubt that pinging vonage.com would tell me anything  
about whether I'm getting a dial tone or not. I can't figure out a  
way to get the IP address, port, and protocol that gets used when I  
make a call. I messed around a bit with tcpdump to sniff some  
packets, but since my Vonage service is built into my Linksys router  
I don't think I can sniff anything of relevance.

Any suggestions? I'm no packet sniffing expert so maybe I can capture  
those packets after all. Suggestions welcomed.

-Tim

-- 
Tim Wilson
Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA
Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy
mailto: wilson at visi.com   aim: tis270   blog: http://technosavvy.org




From chewie at wookimus.net  Sun Jun 11 15:49:24 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:49:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
In-Reply-To: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com> 
References: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>

Tim Wilson <wilson at visi.com>  wrote:
> ...but since my Vonage service is built into my Linksys router  I
> don't think I can sniff anything of relevance.

Which is why we dropped Vonage like a rock.  If they would instead
have a simple VoIP-to-POTS converter, we might have kept them around.
They needed their grubby little fingers in my router, so they were
booted.  Buh-bye.

We're probably going to get Qwest soon, as soon as I finish wiring up
(re-wiring) the 1st floor.
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Sun Jun 11 20:15:37 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 20:15:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
In-Reply-To: <28657363.1150052420307.JavaMail.root@sniper35>
References: <28657363.1150052420307.JavaMail.root@sniper35>
Message-ID: <200606112015.38447.jus@krytosvirus.com>

<disclosure>
I don't know anything about vonage or their voip service. I don't know 
anything about your linksys router.
</disclosure>

To be able to monitor your net traffic you'd have to indicate your network 
topology and you didn't really say what you want to monitor specifically with 
your service. If your linksys supports SNMP i'd recommend enabling it and do 
an snmpwalk (maybe nagios supports this for scanning devices?) and see what 
is available and then check the documentation from linksys for vonage to see 
if they have any specific mibs for their voip service.

Unless someone here has done what you're looking for I think you would be best 
off with contacting vonage support and see if they have any docs or info 
available on your subject. Sometimes you need to talk to a few different 
people until you get one of the real knowledgeable folks. Alternatively you 
can contact their CSR or sales and indicate you're close to dropping the 
service if you can't figure out a way to monitor it the fashion you want, 
additionally telling them that you've gotten mixed response from the support 
people and you just want to get a straight answer.


On Sunday 11 June 2006 01:54 pm, Tim Wilson wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I've been busy learning the ins and outs of nagios for a week or so.
> We've got it running at school, and I've set it up at home to monitor
> various devices around the house. One thing I'd definitely like to
> monitor is my VoIP connection to Vonage.
>
> I seriously doubt that pinging vonage.com would tell me anything
> about whether I'm getting a dial tone or not. I can't figure out a
> way to get the IP address, port, and protocol that gets used when I
> make a call. I messed around a bit with tcpdump to sniff some
> packets, but since my Vonage service is built into my Linksys router
> I don't think I can sniff anything of relevance.
>
> Any suggestions? I'm no packet sniffing expert so maybe I can capture
> those packets after all. Suggestions welcomed.
>
> -Tim


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Mon Jun 12 12:23:54 2006
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:23:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200606121723.k5CHNsW09837@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Free

Subject: Bunch o stuff

I'm moving out of the country and have a bunch of stuff to give away.  Highlights include a Virgin Webplayer that was functioning until I took it apart (I think all the bits are still there), a home-built amd athlon system minus hard drive (a 1500+ I think, can't promise), 2 17" monitors, a couple of motherboards, some memory, assorted cables, etc.  To the best of my knowledge all of it works, and if it doesn't it hasn't cost you anything!  All I ask is that you take it all (except for the monitors - they're optional).  Deadline is Wednesday evening or it all gets thrown!

Seller Email address: verloren at gmail dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From blawrence at qwest.net  Mon Jun 12 13:02:12 2006
From: blawrence at qwest.net (blawrence at qwest.net)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:02:12 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: JETServe
Message-ID: <380-22006611218212750@M2W118.mail2web.com>

Fellow SysAdmins,

I'm desperately searching for a copy of Cheyenne JETServe (acquired by CA)
to recover some archived data from an older Netware server. I realize that
this is a bit off topic for this list but I thought that maybe someone
might still have this software in use or collecting dust on a shelf in a
server room somewhere. I will gladly drive to you and pay whatever it takes
to get this software today. Thanks for your help.

Brian Lawrence
blawrence at qwest.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 14:26:22 2006
From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:26:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
In-Reply-To: <20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com>
	<20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <7d3948c70606121226k45127350x726c6adc3262ccc6@mail.gmail.com>

Tim, Chad and all: See my comments below.

On 6/11/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>
> Tim Wilson <wilson at visi.com>  wrote:
> > ...but since my Vonage service is built into my Linksys router  I
> > don't think I can sniff anything of relevance.
>
> Which is why we dropped Vonage like a rock.  If they would instead
> have a simple VoIP-to-POTS converter, we might have kept them around.
> They needed their grubby little fingers in my router, so they were
> booted.  Buh-bye.
>
> We're probably going to get Qwest soon, as soon as I finish wiring up
> (re-wiring) the 1st floor.


I use Sunrocket as an alternative to Vonage. It has a simple(define simple)
VoIP to POTS converter, called an AC-211.  I belive it is about $200 per
year, about $16.66 per month. It works fine either directly connected to the
cable modem, or behind a router/NAT gateway. It has all of the features you
expect including voicemail and a web interface.   It is SIP complient
although they don't promote that fact.

I've never tried monitoring the network traffic, so I don't know how that
goes. Being SIP complient should help in finding documentation though.

Third Party Forum - http://www.sunrocketforum.com/index.php
Company Website - http://www.sunrocket.com/features/built-in/
Info on SIP - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol
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From wilson at visi.com  Mon Jun 12 23:47:22 2006
From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:47:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
In-Reply-To: <20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com>
	<20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <EF72AB42-7E33-4152-8C1B-2B38FCB310AD@visi.com>

On Jun 11, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> Which is why we dropped Vonage like a rock.  If they would instead
> have a simple VoIP-to-POTS converter, we might have kept them around.
> They needed their grubby little fingers in my router, so they were
> booted.  Buh-bye.

After my initial attempt to do some packet sniffing was unsuccessful  
I decided to make a bit of a project of it. I built a simple passive  
ethernet TAP from the instructions at:

http://www.snort.org/docs/tap/

Unfortunately, I still haven't got any more info. I put the TAP  
between my Linksys (Vonage-enabled) router and my cable modem and set  
up my laptop so it would have a static IP on the same network as my  
external IP (netmask 255.255.254.0 in my case). I started up ethereal  
and didn't capture a single packet from either TAP port.

Has anyone ever used one of these homebuilt TAPs before? Am I using  
it correctly?

-Tim

-- 
Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist
Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA
Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy
mailto: wilson at visi.com   aim: tis270   blog and podcast: http:// 
technosavvy.org


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From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Jun 13 02:28:15 2006
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:28:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] How can I monitor Vonage with nagios
In-Reply-To: <EF72AB42-7E33-4152-8C1B-2B38FCB310AD@visi.com>
References: <02BD8A21-1F34-45B9-8277-709A0B4E40B8@visi.com>
	<20060611204924.4116333A1@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<EF72AB42-7E33-4152-8C1B-2B38FCB310AD@visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606130227380.22398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Tim Wilson wrote:
> After my initial attempt to do some packet sniffing was unsuccessful I 
> decided to make a bit of a project of it. I built a simple passive 
> ethernet TAP from the instructions at:
>
> http://www.snort.org/docs/tap/
>
> Unfortunately, I still haven't got any more info. I put the TAP between 
> my Linksys (Vonage-enabled) router and my cable modem and set up my 
> laptop so it would have a static IP on the same network as my external 
> IP (netmask 255.255.254.0 in my case). I started up ethereal and didn't 
> capture a single packet from either TAP port.
>
> Has anyone ever used one of these homebuilt TAPs before? Am I using it 
> correctly?

Easier way: dig a 4-port+ hub out of your closet. Plug cable modem, 
vonage, and sniffer into it. Enjoy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From j at packetgod.com  Tue Jun 13 12:32:49 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:32:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <448EF6C1.7070708@packetgod.com>

Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major Yahoo worm bot 
spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure. 

http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm

I've been getting these "New Graphic Site" emails constantly over the 
past few days.

But if other free mail solutions are also allowed I'm not sure if there 
is a big difference.

--j

I've been

Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Several years ago, when I first tried to join this email list, I couldn't use my yahoo mail address.  Something about a group vote that banned all yahoo mail accounts supposedly because of spam coming from/thru yahoo.
>
> For quite a while, I just skipped reading the tclug list because it was difficult to access via my home e-mail account.  Recently I have been using my corporate e-mail account.  I don't like using my employer's e-mail account for personal use, not to mention the logistics of carrying on an e-mail conversations using 2 different accounts is nearly impossible, therefore I put forth this resolution:
>
> Since:
> 1) Yahoo has put much effort in preventing spammers from going through their e-mail portal, including requiring interpretation of graphical images (i.e. "Enter the words shown below") on both registering for an account and sending suspicious e-mails.
> 2) Most junk mail with a yahoo return address isn't really from yahoo (check the headers if you want to find the real source).
> 3) Limiting mail from only list members should prevent most spam from getting through.
> 4) Since spammers also have the possibility of using other services, banning just yahoo accounts is prejudicial.  AOL is now selling spam so if anything, they should be banned too.
> 5) TCLUG's mailing list should be available to all.
>
> Be it resolved:
> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
>
> Yes, for those of you who are about to tell me to use google, I do have a gmail account, but it's easier for people to type wdtj at yahoo.com than waynedtjohnson at gmail.com, besides everyone else uses my yahoo account so why switch.
>
> Since the installfest, I've had people contacting me on both yahoo as well as my mqsoftware e-mail and it's driving me crazy!!  Please help!
>
> Wayne Johnson
> Senior Software Engineer
> MQSoftware, Inc.
> 1660 S Highway 100
> Minneapolis, MN 55416
> (952) 345-8628
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 13 12:50:33 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:50:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <448EF6C1.7070708@packetgod.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<448EF6C1.7070708@packetgod.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606131245540.12950@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, J Cruit wrote:

> Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major Yahoo worm bot 
> spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
>
> http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm
>
> I've been getting these "New Graphic Site" emails constantly over the 
> past few days.

Sounds like that is over with.


> But if other free mail solutions are also allowed I'm not sure if there 
> is a big difference.

Right.  (Even though I don't use yahoo mail and I don't like yahoo mail. 
I'm not taking their side in this, but I don't see why they should be 
singled out.)

More questions:  Doesn't our list distribute only from subscribers?  If 
not, we could change that.  If yes, is it easy for a bot to subscribe to 
our list?  If it is easy, can we change that?

Also, it looks like about 67% of spam emanates from Taiwan, 23% from the 
US and 3% from China.  China is in third place!  So a huge amount comes 
from Taiwan and there might be a way to detect that and move it to a spam 
folder.  Of course, the usual spam-detection schemes can also help.

Mike


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 13:00:04 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:00:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <448EFCDC.9080607@gmail.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<448EF6C1.7070708@packetgod.com> <448EFCDC.9080607@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <448EFD24.6040303@gmail.com>

J Cruit wrote:
> Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major Yahoo worm 
> bot spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
> http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm
>
> I've been getting these "New Graphic Site" emails constantly over the 
> past few days.
>
> But if other free mail solutions are also allowed I'm not sure if 
> there is a big difference.
>

Since the list is members only, that worm would only be able to send
messages to the rest of us if someone who was subscribed to this list
opened the worm (in the yahoo web client).

And then we could promptly ridicule that person for opening the worm
bot, and ban them if necessary.

I really don't see why yahoo should be singled out since this is a
members only list.  But I don't know the history that led to the ban.

Dan



-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From auditodd at comcast.net  Tue Jun 13 13:05:14 2006
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:05:14 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <061320061805.27081.448EFE59000EB4E8000069C922007589420B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

I have to agree with Mike.
I have Gmail, Hotmail, and Yahoo for web email accounts and Yahoo is far and above the worst for spam mail and other issues.

--
----
------
Todd Young

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, J Cruit wrote:
> 
> > Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major Yahoo worm bot 
> > spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
> >
> > http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm
> >





From admin at lctn.org  Tue Jun 13 13:12:00 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:12:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] what to use
Message-ID: <1150222321.26743.114.camel@project-1.tamray.com>

I stream a lot of video using WME, and WMS. I need to create a virtual
tour of a building, and really like the way the Realtors are doing this
now. Not sure what their using to get the look and functionality. Are
their any open source projects that would fit the bill?


Raymond



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 13 13:27:59 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:27:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <061320061805.27081.448EFE59000EB4E8000069C922007589420B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
References: <061320061805.27081.448EFE59000EB4E8000069C922007589420B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606131326550.12950@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 auditodd at comcast.net wrote:

> I have to agree with Mike.
>
> I have Gmail, Hotmail, and Yahoo for web email accounts and Yahoo is far 
> and above the worst for spam mail and other issues.

You really agree with J Cruit.  Mike is the one who is asking questions 
and suggesting that maybe we can deal with Yahoo subscribers.

Mike


> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, J Cruit wrote:
>>
>>> Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major Yahoo worm bot
>>> spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
>>>
>>> http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm


From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Tue Jun 13 13:39:40 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:39:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] what to use
Message-ID: <2006061318394058d222792e@mail.smumn.edu>

>their any open source projects that would fit the bill?


I used VideoLan to stream video from my laptop to my living room computer to play family videos at a get-together. I believe it has a server functionality. 

I do recommend since you like to take advantage of open source technology to put bread on your table; it would be a nice gesture if you donated money to the VideoLan project if you indeed find it to be your solution.


~David




"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From rwh at visi.com  Tue Jun 13 13:44:47 2006
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:44:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] what to use
In-Reply-To: <1150222321.26743.114.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
References: <1150222321.26743.114.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
Message-ID: <448F079F.7030609@visi.com>

Raymond Norton wrote:
> I stream a lot of video using WME, and WMS. I need to create a virtual
> tour of a building, and really like the way the Realtors are doing this
> now. Not sure what their using to get the look and functionality. Are
> their any open source projects that would fit the bill?
> 

I think Hugins and its associated tools will let you take 360 degree
panorama and stitch them into QVTR format. I think that those can be
linked together so you can click-walk from room to room, but I don't
know the specifics.

--rick

http://sourceforge.net/projects/hugin
http://exolucere.ca/articles/create-panorama
http://exolucere.ca/articles/compile-hugin-ubuntu


From admin at lctn.org  Tue Jun 13 13:46:23 2006
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:46:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] what to use
In-Reply-To: <2006061318394058d222792e@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006061318394058d222792e@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <1150224384.26743.118.camel@project-1.tamray.com>


> I used VideoLan to stream video from my laptop to my living room computer to play family videos at a get-together. I believe it has a server functionality. 
> 
> I do recommend since you like to take advantage of open source technology to put bread on your table; it would be a nice gesture if you donated money to the VideoLan project if you indeed find it to be your solution.
> 

Actually, the bread is leaving my wallet on this project, but I do
contribute to great open source solutions. I can easily stream with the
equipment I have. It was more the look and functionality (360's,
panoramic views, etc) I see on Realtors sites that I am looking for.





From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 13 13:50:17 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:50:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF562@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Could you please be more specific on what you mean by spam issues?  Are you saying you are receiving bonafide emails from yahoo accounts, or that you have a yahoo account and are receiving spam.  I have a honeytrap yahoo account and I've never received any spam mail on it.  As far as it having sourced spam, are you looking at the reply to address or the header?

Now much spam a yahoo account receives is of no importance to this conversation.  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of
> auditodd at comcast.net
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:05 PM
> To: Mike Miller; J Cruit
> Cc: Tclug-List (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> I have to agree with Mike.
> I have Gmail, Hotmail, and Yahoo for web email accounts and 
> Yahoo is far and above the worst for spam mail and other issues.
> 
> --
> ----
> ------
> Todd Young
> 
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
> > On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, J Cruit wrote:
> > 
> > > Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major 
> Yahoo worm bot 
> > > spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
> > >
> > > http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From mbditt at plauditdesign.com  Tue Jun 13 15:04:10 2006
From: mbditt at plauditdesign.com (Matt Dittbenner)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:04:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] what to use
In-Reply-To: <1150222321.26743.114.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
References: <1150222321.26743.114.camel@project-1.tamray.com>
Message-ID: <448F1A3A.8020209@plauditdesign.com>

I use a java plugin version that works cross-platform and a special lens 
for capturing more for the panoramas.

How extensive is the virtual tour? Unless you get a fisheye lens, I'd 
expect the project to take quite a bit of time. Photographing with a 
fisheye i can do a 360 + top and bottom in 8 shots. Without, it's more 
like 30+ shots. Then, the more shots you have drastically increases 
stitching time.

Also you need to make sure you purchase the proper equipment to 
eliminate parallax. This is a combination of a special camera mount, 
plus the calibration of said mount. Parallax occurs when you don't 
rotate the camera around its "nodal point". This is noticeable if you 
close one eye and turn your head. If you can see something that you 
couldn't see before, thats parallax. This causes major stitching 
problems and can get VERY annoying.

Let me know if you need more details...I do this at work and it is 
harder than i thought! I just recently did a set of panoramas for the 
VISI.com data center.

Matt


Raymond Norton wrote:
> I stream a lot of video using WME, and WMS. I need to create a virtual
> tour of a building, and really like the way the Realtors are doing this
> now. Not sure what their using to get the look and functionality. Are
> their any open source projects that would fit the bill?
>
>
> Raymond
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   

-- 
		

	<http://www.plaudit.com/> 	
Matt Dittbenner
*EMAIL* 		mbditt at plauditdesign.com <mailto:mbditt at plauditdesign.com>
*WEB* 		www.plauditdesign.com <http://www.plaudit.com/>
*PHONE* 		651.646.0696
*ADDRESS* 		2470 University Ave.

	St. Paul, MN 55114

	

		

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From j at packetgod.com  Tue Jun 13 15:02:54 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:02:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF562@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF562@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <448F19EE.9000407@packetgod.com>

I'll just say that we should either allow free e-mail accounts or not.  
Choosing one or the other individual ones is not really effective.  
Yahoo sends out the most spam as it is one of the largest e-mail 
providers around and probably has the most forged e-mails as well.  But 
what would be a more interesting statistic is SPAM per capita versus 
other solutions, I'd assume it is either lower or equivalent.

I'm just going to put myself in the camp of: Ehh, why not.  Lets just 
open it up and see what happens.  My earlier comment was mostly based on 
the fact that the request was either on the day of or right after that 
big worm went through there so the timing was rather humorous.

Perhaps we should only allow people with interesting domain names like 
packetgod.com or j-yo.com.  And only if they are running decent mail 
software like Postfix or Qmail, none of that exchange or sendmail junk.  
(Flame on! Just kidding, it was a joke!)

--j


Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Could you please be more specific on what you mean by spam issues?  Are you saying you are receiving bonafide emails from yahoo accounts, or that you have a yahoo account and are receiving spam.  I have a honeytrap yahoo account and I've never received any spam mail on it.  As far as it having sourced spam, are you looking at the reply to address or the header?
>
> Now much spam a yahoo account receives is of no importance to this conversation.  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of
>> auditodd at comcast.net
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:05 PM
>> To: Mike Miller; J Cruit
>> Cc: Tclug-List (E-mail)
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>>
>>
>> I have to agree with Mike.
>> I have Gmail, Hotmail, and Yahoo for web email accounts and 
>> Yahoo is far and above the worst for spam mail and other issues.
>>
>> --
>> ----
>> ------
>> Todd Young
>>
>>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
>> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
>>     
>>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006, J Cruit wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Well, if this message hadn't come on the heels of a major 
>>>>         
>> Yahoo worm bot 
>>     
>>>> spreading fast I might be more inclined to say sure.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,39367249,00.htm
>>>>
>>>>         
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>     




From markmit at mn.rr.com  Wed Jun 14 18:34:24 2006
From: markmit at mn.rr.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:34:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
Message-ID: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>

Whenever I attempt to load a page containing any flash component, firefox will 
crash.  Konqueror will load the page, but without any flash content.

I attempted installing flashplugin-free|nonfree (1) and had no luck.  I've now 
removed everything relevant (2), and firefox is still crashing.

I really don't care if flash works or not, but I do want firefox to keep 
running whether or not it has flash installed.

Relevant system info (3);

Following Debian testing, all components should be current versions.

mark at aptiva:~$ firefox http://americavotes.org
The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
This probably reflects a bug in the program.
The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.
  (Details: serial 89 error_code 8 request_code 146 minor_code 3)
  (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
   that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
   To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
   option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
   backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)

Any ideas?

Thanks, 
Mark

[1] via apt-get
[2] search for macromedia and flash in synaptic, and complete removal of 
everything relevant.
[3] I hope, if anything else would be useful, speak up.


From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Wed Jun 14 20:32:15 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 01:32:15 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
Message-ID: <061520060132.15217.4490B89E000E57AE00003B71220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Mark,

What version of Firefox are you using?  Most of the releases of Firefox over the past year have flash as part of the browser package built in for Lunux.

There is a beta out for Firefox 2.00 called Bon Echo, one feature of this build is a "auto crash recovery".

http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2006/05/13/bon-echo-alpha-3-planned-for-may-26th/

HTH,

Jerry W

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mark Mitchell <markmit at mn.rr.com>
> Whenever I attempt to load a page containing any flash component, firefox will 
> crash.  Konqueror will load the page, but without any flash content.
> 
> I attempted installing flashplugin-free|nonfree (1) and had no luck.  I've now 
> removed everything relevant (2), and firefox is still crashing.
> 
> I really don't care if flash works or not, but I do want firefox to keep 
> running whether or not it has flash installed.
> 
> Relevant system info (3);
> 
> Following Debian testing, all components should be current versions.
> 
> mark at aptiva:~$ firefox http://americavotes.org
> The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
> The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.
>   (Details: serial 89 error_code 8 request_code 146 minor_code 3)
>   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
>    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
>    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
>    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
>    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks, 
> Mark
> 
> [1] via apt-get
> [2] search for macromedia and flash in synaptic, and complete removal of 
> everything relevant.
> [3] I hope, if anything else would be useful, speak up.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 21:24:49 2006
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 21:24:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
In-Reply-To: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>
References: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570606141924geb71aevb44cf6be2d01b412@mail.gmail.com>

have you tried reinstalling firefox (i.e. apt-get install --reinstall
firefox)?

jonner

On 6/14/06, Mark Mitchell <markmit at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> Whenever I attempt to load a page containing any flash component, firefox will
> crash.  Konqueror will load the page, but without any flash content.
>
> I attempted installing flashplugin-free|nonfree (1) and had no luck.  I've now
> removed everything relevant (2), and firefox is still crashing.
>
> I really don't care if flash works or not, but I do want firefox to keep
> running whether or not it has flash installed.
>
> Relevant system info (3);
>
> Following Debian testing, all components should be current versions.
>
> mark at aptiva:~$ firefox http://americavotes.org
> The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
> The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.
>   (Details: serial 89 error_code 8 request_code 146 minor_code 3)
>   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
>    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
>    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
>    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
>    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error() function.)
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
> [1] via apt-get
> [2] search for macromedia and flash in synaptic, and complete removal of
> everything relevant.
> [3] I hope, if anything else would be useful, speak up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From markmit at mn.rr.com  Wed Jun 14 22:15:33 2006
From: markmit at mn.rr.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:15:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
In-Reply-To: <061520060132.15217.4490B89E000E57AE00003B71220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
References: <061520060132.15217.4490B89E000E57AE00003B71220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200606142215.34748.markmit@mn.rr.com>

I'm running ver 1.5.0.3

On Wednesday 14 June 2006 20:32, you wrote:
> Mark,
>
> What version of Firefox are you using?  Most of the releases of Firefox
> over the past year have flash as part of the browser package built in for
> Lunux.
>
> There is a beta out for Firefox 2.00 called Bon Echo, one feature of this
> build is a "auto crash recovery".
>
> http://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2006/05/13/bon-echo-alpha-3-
>planned-for-may-26th/
>
> HTH,
>
> Jerry W
>
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Mark Mitchell <markmit at mn.rr.com>
>
> > Whenever I attempt to load a page containing any flash component, firefox
> > will crash.  Konqueror will load the page, but without any flash content.
> >
> > I attempted installing flashplugin-free|nonfree (1) and had no luck. 
> > I've now removed everything relevant (2), and firefox is still crashing.
> >
> > I really don't care if flash works or not, but I do want firefox to keep
> > running whether or not it has flash installed.
> >
> > Relevant system info (3);
> >
> > Following Debian testing, all components should be current versions.
> >
> > mark at aptiva:~$ firefox http://americavotes.org
> > The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
> > This probably reflects a bug in the program.
> > The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.
> >   (Details: serial 89 error_code 8 request_code 146 minor_code 3)
> >   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
> >    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
> >    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
> >    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
> >    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error()
> > function.)
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >
> > [1] via apt-get
> > [2] search for macromedia and flash in synaptic, and complete removal of
> > everything relevant.
> > [3] I hope, if anything else would be useful, speak up.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From markmit at mn.rr.com  Wed Jun 14 22:19:29 2006
From: markmit at mn.rr.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:19:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570606141924geb71aevb44cf6be2d01b412@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>
	<ee2fcb570606141924geb71aevb44cf6be2d01b412@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200606142219.30369.markmit@mn.rr.com>

I thought of this after I sent the first message, just tried it now on 
http://americavotes.org. 

And it crashed.

On Wednesday 14 June 2006 21:24, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> have you tried reinstalling firefox (i.e. apt-get install --reinstall
> firefox)?
>
> jonner
>
> On 6/14/06, Mark Mitchell <markmit at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> > Whenever I attempt to load a page containing any flash component, firefox
> > will crash.  Konqueror will load the page, but without any flash content.
> >
> > I attempted installing flashplugin-free|nonfree (1) and had no luck. 
> > I've now removed everything relevant (2), and firefox is still crashing.
> >
> > I really don't care if flash works or not, but I do want firefox to keep
> > running whether or not it has flash installed.
> >
> > Relevant system info (3);
> >
> > Following Debian testing, all components should be current versions.
> >
> > mark at aptiva:~$ firefox http://americavotes.org
> > The program 'Gecko' received an X Window System error.
> > This probably reflects a bug in the program.
> > The error was 'BadMatch (invalid parameter attributes)'.
> >   (Details: serial 89 error_code 8 request_code 146 minor_code 3)
> >   (Note to programmers: normally, X errors are reported asynchronously;
> >    that is, you will receive the error a while after causing it.
> >    To debug your program, run it with the --sync command line
> >    option to change this behavior. You can then get a meaningful
> >    backtrace from your debugger if you break on the gdk_x_error()
> > function.)
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >
> > [1] via apt-get
> > [2] search for macromedia and flash in synaptic, and complete removal of
> > everything relevant.
> > [3] I hope, if anything else would be useful, speak up.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tmarble at info9.net  Thu Jun 15 07:51:07 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 07:51:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
In-Reply-To: <200606142215.34748.markmit@mn.rr.com>
References: <061520060132.15217.4490B89E000E57AE00003B71220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
	<200606142215.34748.markmit@mn.rr.com>
Message-ID: <449157BB.70202@info9.net>

Mark Mitchell wrote:
> I'm running ver 1.5.0.3
I'm running 1.5.0.2

And I have Christian Marillat's archive in sources.list:
http://debian.video.free.fr/

And I've found that flashplayer-mozilla works better
for me than flashplugin-nonfree.

In general to debug nasty crashes you probably want to
carefully examine (or move away) any plugin files in
  /usr/lib/BROWSER/plugins/

In the case of firefox, I currently have, for example:

root at fastlap 49# pwd
/usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/plugins
root at fastlap 50# ls -l
total 0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 37 2006-03-27 22:47 flashplayer.xpt -> ../../mozilla/plugins/flashplayer.xpt
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 2006-03-27 22:47 libflashplayer.so -> ../../mozilla/plugins/libflashplayer.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 2006-05-09 11:33 libjavaplugin.so -> /etc/alternatives/firefox-javaplugin.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 37 2006-05-31 17:55 libvlcplugin.so -> ../../mozilla/plugins/libvlcplugin.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 32 2006-04-10 11:17 nphelix.so -> ../../mozilla/plugins/nphelix.so
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 33 2006-04-10 11:17 nphelix.xpt -> ../../mozilla/plugins/nphelix.xpt
root at fastlap 51#

HTH,

--Tom


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Jun 15 08:45:33 2006
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:45:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux CNC
In-Reply-To: <000301c68bc3$a11ca350$1202a8c0@AMD64>;
	from markdeb.browne@comcast.net on Fri, Jun 09, 2006 at
	07:52:55AM -0500
References: <000301c68bc3$a11ca350$1202a8c0@AMD64>
Message-ID: <20060615084533.O26130@real-time.com>

On 06/09 07:52 , Mark Browne wrote:
> Does anyone on the group have any experience with Linux CNC?
> 
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/

I've played around with it, along with a machinist friend. it installs
pretty easy; we didn't get around to attaching it to an actual mill while I
was there tho.

basically there are a couple of different layers; it's pretty well-designed
on the whole.

there's a program that reads g-code and operates the parallel-port
interface(s) to run the machine tool(s). I can't remember the name ATM. this
is pretty much the universal part of it all.

then there's a number of different front ends, like xemc, TkEMC, AxisEMC,
and others, which give you a nice front-end GUI to operate it. I kind of
liked AxisEMC (http://axis.unpythonic.net/) myself; but others are more
lightweight. (you don't need a fancy gui if you're just doing repetetive
work).


-- 
Carl Soderstrom



From jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 09:44:04 2006
From: jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com (Jeff Rasmussen)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:44:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] flash crashes firefox in debian testing.
In-Reply-To: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>
References: <200606141834.25700.markmit@mn.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9d6c82530606150744k1648732fg7cf3ec756a9dd06a@mail.gmail.com>

I've run into this problem on Debian before and narrowed the problem down to
audio.  Macromedia coded the linux port of flash to only use /dev/dsp (said
to be fixed in Macromedia's next release for linux, but I believe
unavailable at this time) and /dev/dsp will only allow one application to
use it.  When flash tries to open /dev/dsp if something else (i.e. gnome,
esd, older applications) also has the audio device open.

The most interesting way to fix this problem is to install alsa-oss and
change the global config file for firefox /etc/
1. FIREFOX_DSP="aoss" in /etc/firefox/firefoxrc and
/etc/mozilla-firefox/mozilla-firefoxrc (by now it's set to "alsa09")
2. The alsa-oss package installed (by now it's not installed by default)
3. The autoaudiosink used by default for gstreamer (I think alsasink is used
now instead)

Number 3 is talking about changing the gstreamer-properties.

I got the above tip from an Ubuntu bug comment
http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/+bug/29760

Previously I have use libesd-alsa0 which worked pretty well if you tweaked
the /etc/esound/esd.conf to make esd drop the /dev/dsp connection after 5
seconds of inactivity and set gstreamer-properties to output through alsa.
But that meant that I had to turn off gnome sounds because it was never
giving up the esd control which made the next application hang/wait until
esd was idle.

I just started trying the alsa-oss fix on my home computer and haven't
really put it through any sort of paces.  It looked like everything worked
but I'm not sure if I have called 2 sound apps at the same time.  Let me
know if this works for you.

-- 
Jeff Rasmussen
GPG public key 0x9686C12F
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From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Thu Jun 15 12:40:58 2006
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:40:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeking Local Tomcat Web Host
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8.1150390803.18695.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <200606151730.k5FHUIEg000380@delta.twp-llc.com>

Hi all,

My company is now hosting a web application that uses Tomcat and Struts, and
we'd like to find a local company that actually hosts web sites. It's a VERY
low-resource application (about 12MB of files, mostly static images), and
500KB of database (really), and around 1000 page loads a day.

We are looking at Real-Time, but we'd like to know about good experience
with others too.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris Schumann - Partner               Third Wave Partnership, LLC
Phone: 612-920-4364           Full Life Cycle Software Development
Fax:   612-677-3003                         http://www.twp-llc.com



From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Fri Jun 16 14:57:08 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:57:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking to buy Linksys Wireless
Message-ID: <2006061619570826d222f3fc@mail.smumn.edu>

Hello:

I am looking to purchase a used linksys wrt54g version 4 wireless router.

If anyone on the list has one to spare, please contact me at your earliest convinience.


sdalan04 @ smumn dot edu

David

"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Jun 16 15:22:12 2006
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:22:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking to buy Linksys Wireless
In-Reply-To: <2006061619570826d222f3fc@mail.smumn.edu>
References: <2006061619570826d222f3fc@mail.smumn.edu>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0606161322v4894828cy84fee26890d34eb6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/16/06, David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu> wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I am looking to purchase a used linksys wrt54g version 4 wireless router.

Looking to try out DD-WRT?  Good choice :-)

I just switched from m0n0wall to dd-wrt (running on a WRT54GL) two
weeks ago, and couldn't recommend it more.  I'm running v23SP1 and
it's rock-solid stable, very fast, and incredibly feature-filled.  Man
I sound like a marketing droid.  :-)

Anyway - lemme know if you run into any issues - there are a few gotchas.

-Erik

-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From esamuel at mn.rr.com  Sun Jun 18 02:32:00 2006
From: esamuel at mn.rr.com (Eugene Samuel)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 02:32:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
Message-ID: <44950170.5090607@mn.rr.com>

I'm looking to a Linux tutor in South Metro area.
I have been dabbeling with several linux distros for the past year and I 
need help filling many gaps in my knowledge.
Eugene



From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Sun Jun 18 06:14:30 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (Jerry W)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:14:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
Message-ID: <44953596.20101@comcast.net>

Eugene,

I would be interested also.  Have used some of the Linux distros for the 
past year or so and kind of new.

I live in South St Paul, MN.  Retired, lots of time on my hands.

Jerry Weihrauch


From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Sun Jun 18 11:07:41 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
Message-ID: <2006061816074152d2232461@mail.smumn.edu>

Jerry, Eugene:

I am also a novice to Linux, I feel that I know enough to be able to run a few distros without as much help as in the past. However, I really became interested in Gentoo Linux through my friend Jeff, which sleeps, eats, and lives with 5-10 live gentoo boxes. Having this friendship we talked about the different methods, applications, utilities, and learning moments we have had with different applications. So, I think you two might have something very in common possibly working on computers together knowledge could be exchanged. BTW, what distros have you worked with in the past, just so people who read your postings can get a better understanding?

Thanks,

David


On Sunday, June 18, 2006  6:14 AM, Jerry W wrote:
>
>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:14:30 -0500
>From: Jerry W
>To: Tc-lug <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>,  esamuel at mn.rr.com
>Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
>
>Eugene,
>
>I would be interested also.  Have used some of the Linux distros for the
>past year or so and kind of new.
>
>I live in South St Paul, MN.  Retired, lots of time on my hands.
>
>Jerry Weihrauch
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From florin at iucha.net  Sun Jun 18 12:27:28 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:27:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Microsoft Wireless Laser Destkop 6000 and Linux
Message-ID: <20060618172728.GQ7905@iucha.net>

I have just got the wireless keyboard and mouse combo mentioned in the
title, set it up and ... nothing. Linux does not recognize it.

Looking in the /var/log/messages, I see a lot of
   [  149.386325] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 6
   [  149.469949] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.600844] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.728097] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 7
   [  149.811719] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.942610] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  150.069866] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 8
   [  150.258930] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 8, error -110
   [  150.338920] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 9
   [  150.527982] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 9, error -110
   [  275.993109] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 10
   [  276.076735] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.207624] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.334880] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 11
   [  276.418503] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.549394] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.676650] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 12
   [  276.862082] usb 2-8: device not accepting address 12, error -110
   [  276.942069] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 13
   [  277.127496] usb 2-8: device not accepting address 13, error -110
   [  373.348645] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 14
   [  373.534074] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 14, error -110
   [  373.614062] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 15
   [  373.799490] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 15, error -110
   [  373.879484] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 16
   [  373.961286] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.090359] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.217615] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 17
   [  374.299421] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.428495] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.386325] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 6
   [  149.469949] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.600844] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.728097] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 7
   [  149.811719] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  149.942610] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  150.069866] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 8
   [  150.258930] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 8, error -110
   [  150.338920] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 9
   [  150.527982] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 9, error -110
   [  275.993109] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 10
   [  276.076735] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.207624] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.334880] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 11
   [  276.418503] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.549394] usb 2-8: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  276.676650] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 12
   [  276.862082] usb 2-8: device not accepting address 12, error -110
   [  276.942069] usb 2-8: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 13
   [  277.127496] usb 2-8: device not accepting address 13, error -110
   [  373.348645] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 14
   [  373.534074] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 14, error -110
   [  373.614062] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 15
   [  373.799490] usb 2-7: device not accepting address 15, error -110
   [  373.879484] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 16
   [  373.961286] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.090359] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.217615] usb 2-7: new low speed USB device using ohci_hcd and
   address 17
   [  374.299421] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110
   [  374.428495] usb 2-7: device descriptor read/64, error -110

Does anybody have any of the Microsoft wireless combos running under
Linux? Any idea what might be wrong?

The wireless receiver is plugged into a powered motherboard port, so
that cannot be the cause. I have tried it on two computers. The old
Toshiba laptop didn't see the device at all. Nothing in the logs.

Should I take it back?

florin

PS: BBuy has a sale on the "Microsoft Wireless Laser Destkop 6000 -
only $52 (down from $97)

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Sun Jun 18 12:58:14 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 17:58:14 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
Message-ID: <061820061758.19427.44959435000E285E00004BE3220588636097050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

David, 

Have tried SuSE version 7.?  The motherboard was going bad and thought that SuSE was messing up my Windows partition, so never went back to SuSE after replacement of the motherboard.  I have the SuSE DVD version 10.1, but have not installed that yet.

Then tried Mandrake 8, when I did a upgrade from 9.0 to 9.3 that distro failed to boot, tried all suggestions on the Mandrake user groups even reinstall of version 9.0, that failed to boot.  Never went back to Mandrake or have tried Mandriva.

A few different versions of Knoppix, last was version 5.0 live CD, it worked fine I wanted one to install on the HDD.

Last one: and have had good results with SimplyMEPIS 6.0. RC1
Version 6 has the "unbuntu" core I guess. 
http://www.mepis.org/

Tried some of the "Live CD" versions of  Ubuntu, Fedora, Kubuntu.  I like the KDE interface over the GNOME.

Have installed extra programs from tar ball, and seem to be getting somewhat of an idea about tar files.

Jerry W


 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu>
> Jerry, Eugene:
> 
> I am also a novice to Linux, I feel that I know enough to be able to run a few 
> distros without as much help as in the past. However, I really became interested 
> in Gentoo Linux through my friend Jeff, which sleeps, eats, and lives with 5-10 
> live gentoo boxes. Having this friendship we talked about the different methods, 
> applications, utilities, and learning moments we have had with different 
> applications. So, I think you two might have something very in common possibly 
> working on computers together knowledge could be exchanged. BTW, what distros 
> have you worked with in the past, just so people who read your postings can get 
> a better understanding?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David
> 
> 
> On Sunday, June 18, 2006  6:14 AM, Jerry W wrote:
> >
> >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:14:30 -0500
> >From: Jerry W
> >To: Tc-lug <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>,  esamuel at mn.rr.com
> >Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
> >
> >Eugene,
> >
> >I would be interested also.  Have used some of the Linux distros for the
> >past year or so and kind of new.
> >
> >I live in South St Paul, MN.  Retired, lots of time on my hands.
> >
> >Jerry Weihrauch
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - 
> Einstein
> 
> "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"
> 




From noly747 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 11:05:36 2006
From: noly747 at gmail.com (jerry Nolan)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:05:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1150650003.28582.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.5.1150650003.28582.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <a636ca1d0606190905m62eeb457q350a98cdd9a60de7@mail.gmail.com>

I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
etc.     Jerry Nolan

On 6/18/06, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
<tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org> wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
>         tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Linux Tutor (Eugene Samuel)
>    2. Linux Tutor (Jerry W)
>    3. Re: Linux Tutor (David Alanis)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 02:32:00 -0500
> From: Eugene Samuel <esamuel at mn.rr.com>
> Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID: <44950170.5090607 at mn.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I'm looking to a Linux tutor in South Metro area.
> I have been dabbeling with several linux distros for the past year and I
> need help filling many gaps in my knowledge.
> Eugene
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:14:30 -0500
> From: Jerry W <j_wrocky at comcast.net>
> Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
> To: TC-Lug <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>,  esamuel at mn.rr.com
> Message-ID: <44953596.20101 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Eugene,
>
> I would be interested also.  Have used some of the Linux distros for the
> past year or so and kind of new.
>
> I live in South St Paul, MN.  Retired, lots of time on my hands.
>
> Jerry Weihrauch
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:07:41 -0500
> From: David Alanis <SDALAN04 at smumn.edu>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
> To: esamuel at mn.rr.com,Jerry W <j_wrocky at comcast.net>,
>         tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID: <2006061816074152d2232461 at mail.smumn.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jerry, Eugene:
>
> I am also a novice to Linux, I feel that I know enough to be able to run a few distros without as much help as in the past. However, I really became interested in Gentoo Linux through my friend Jeff, which sleeps, eats, and lives with 5-10 live gentoo boxes. Having this friendship we talked about the different methods, applications, utilities, and learning moments we have had with different applications. So, I think you two might have something very in common possibly working on computers together knowledge could be exchanged. BTW, what distros have you worked with in the past, just so people who read your postings can get a better understanding?
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> On Sunday, June 18, 2006  6:14 AM, Jerry W wrote:
> >
> >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 06:14:30 -0500
> >From: Jerry W
> >To: Tc-lug <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>,  esamuel at mn.rr.com
> >Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
> >
> >Eugene,
> >
> >I would be interested also.  Have used some of the Linux distros for the
> >past year or so and kind of new.
> >
> >I live in South St Paul, MN.  Retired, lots of time on my hands.
> >
> >Jerry Weihrauch
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
> "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein
>
> "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 18, Issue 32
> ******************************************
>


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 11:40:27 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:40:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <a636ca1d0606190905m62eeb457q350a98cdd9a60de7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEEKCCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Might be better to buy a book - something like Sam's "Teach Yourself
Linux in 24 hours" and do a study group that meets at WiFi hotspots
occasionally.  I think there are some online tutorials also, but I
haven't looked lately.  For stuff that's distro-specific, might be
better to stick with mailing lists for beginners in that distro.  If
most are in the South end of town, how about Dunn Bros in Apple Valley?

Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of jerry Nolan
>
> I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
> Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
> effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
> anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
> 10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
> some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
> etc.     Jerry Nolan
>



From dniesen at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 11:57:07 2006
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:57:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEEKCCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <a636ca1d0606190905m62eeb457q350a98cdd9a60de7@mail.gmail.com>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEEKCCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70606190957l25d7eb81ne46b754a5d9fcd60@mail.gmail.com>

If you're wanting a good fundamental tutorial and you're cheap (like
myself), The Linux Documentation Project has a fantastic "Introduction
to Linux" tutorial:  http://www.tldp.org/guides.html

I've personally found it best to go through guides like this and learn
the fundamentals then look for guides for specific distros or tasks
that you're trying to accomplish.  It is a learning preference and I
find that I learn better by going through tutorials like this and then
seeking help if I'm really stuck on something.

On 6/19/06, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Might be better to buy a book - something like Sam's "Teach Yourself
> Linux in 24 hours" and do a study group that meets at WiFi hotspots
> occasionally.  I think there are some online tutorials also, but I
> haven't looked lately.  For stuff that's distro-specific, might be
> better to stick with mailing lists for beginners in that distro.  If
> most are in the South end of town, how about Dunn Bros in Apple Valley?
>
> Chuck
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of jerry Nolan
> >
> > I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
> > Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
> > effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
> > anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
> > 10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
> > some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
> > etc.     Jerry Nolan
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 12:32:52 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:32:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70606190957l25d7eb81ne46b754a5d9fcd60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCKENAHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Great suggestion!  I think the self-paced options are best, and
occasionally meeting for BS and coffee may be a way to keep moving or to
learn some tricks.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donovan Niesen [mailto:dniesen at gmail.com]
>
>
> If you're wanting a good fundamental tutorial and you're cheap (like
> myself), The Linux Documentation Project has a fantastic "Introduction
> to Linux" tutorial:  http://www.tldp.org/guides.html
>
> I've personally found it best to go through guides like this and learn
> the fundamentals then look for guides for specific distros or tasks
> that you're trying to accomplish.  It is a learning preference and I
> find that I learn better by going through tutorials like this and then
> seeking help if I'm really stuck on something.
>
> On 6/19/06, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Might be better to buy a book - something like Sam's "Teach Yourself
> > Linux in 24 hours" and do a study group that meets at WiFi hotspots
> > occasionally.  I think there are some online tutorials also, but I
> > haven't looked lately.  For stuff that's distro-specific, might be
> > better to stick with mailing lists for beginners in that distro.  If
> > most are in the South end of town, how about Dunn Bros in
> Apple Valley?
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of jerry Nolan
> > >
> > > I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired
> in Cottage
> > > Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more
> knowledge to use
> > > effectively.
>



From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Mon Jun 19 14:10:32 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:10:32 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
Message-ID: <061920061910.10564.4496F6A8000BD88E00002944220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Donovan and all,

Yep, have SimplyMEPIS book, comes with a DVD that you can play on your TV or DVD computer drive on he basics of Linux.  Found it very useful.

Still neat to get together with some one else, kibitz, share experiences too.

I volunteer at a senior center twice a week helping other seniors with computer skills.  It is so great to see their faces light up when you show them what they are trying to do on a program.  There are books at the center for people to take home, one of the most popular is "How to Love Your Computer" or something like that.  They read and then when they come back we sit down and show them the steps, I think they comprehend a little better.  The OS is Windows XP Pro, but that is what most people at home have now.

So far Jerry Nolan in Cottage Grove is interested in getting together.  My self don't want to drive to far, I have a car, but it is not very reliable.  Maybe meet somewhere south in Inver Grove off Highway 52 and South Concord Blvd.  That is almost in Eagan, there is a Caribou Coffee there.  Also have night vision problems so mornings or afternoons would work the best for me.

Any one else interested?  No date or time or place has been set up yet.  Maybe we can start up a Linux newbie group?

I will coordinate any suggestions and let those interested know.

j_wrocky at comcast dot net

Jerry Weihrauch



 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Donovan Niesen" <dniesen at gmail.com>
> If you're wanting a good fundamental tutorial and you're cheap (like
> myself), The Linux Documentation Project has a fantastic "Introduction
> to Linux" tutorial:  http://www.tldp.org/guides.html
> 
> I've personally found it best to go through guides like this and learn
> the fundamentals then look for guides for specific distros or tasks
> that you're trying to accomplish.  It is a learning preference and I
> find that I learn better by going through tutorials like this and then
> seeking help if I'm really stuck on something.
> 
> On 6/19/06, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Might be better to buy a book - something like Sam's "Teach Yourself
> > Linux in 24 hours" and do a study group that meets at WiFi hotspots
> > occasionally.  I think there are some online tutorials also, but I
> > haven't looked lately.  For stuff that's distro-specific, might be
> > better to stick with mailing lists for beginners in that distro.  If
> > most are in the South end of town, how about Dunn Bros in Apple Valley?
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of jerry Nolan
> > >
> > > I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
> > > Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
> > > effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
> > > anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
> > > 10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
> > > some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
> > > etc.     Jerry Nolan
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Donovan Niesen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Mon Jun 19 14:37:21 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:37:21 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on IBM Thinkpad
Message-ID: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Would like to install a Linux distro and also leave Windows XP Pro on the HDD.
The Thinkpad is a G40 Series, Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU, 248 MB RAM, 24.GB HDD.
Is now running Windows XP Pro SP2.

Any recommendations or gotcha's?

I can download and burn any distro on to a CD or DVD.
I have SimplyMEPIS 6.0rc1 SuSE 10.1 (DVD), Kubuntu 6.06 on CD's now.

I have the IBM restore disks.

Jerry Weihrauch




From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 15:21:26 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:21:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <061920061910.10564.4496F6A8000BD88E00002944220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAENGHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: j_wrocky at comcast.net [mailto:j_wrocky at comcast.net]
>
> Donovan and all,
>
> Still neat to get together with some one else, kibitz, share
> experiences too.
>
> So far Jerry Nolan in Cottage Grove is interested in getting
> together.  My self don't want to drive to far, I have a car,
> but it is not very reliable.  Maybe meet somewhere south in
> Inver Grove off Highway 52 and South Concord Blvd.  That is
> almost in Eagan, there is a Caribou Coffee there.  Also have
> night vision problems so mornings or afternoons would work
> the best for me.

Caribou doesn't have free WiFi, and I think that's important...
essential.  The Dunn Bros in AV that I suggested does have free WiFi as
does Panera Bread and Old Chicago pizza (all 3 in AV).  In Eagan, Old
Chicago pizza and Panera Bread have free WiFi, but the Dunn Bros out
near/on Dodd Road didn't last time I checked.  I'm not wild about going
out to the Concord area and don't know of any free WiFi spots out
there...  might be some now, however.  At present, I'm free most
anytime.

Note: the WiFi at several coffee shops around town spills over to
sandwich shops next door and opens the possibilities for inexpensive
lunch or brunch as an individual option.  Also, a few places will host
non-profit groups and have video projectors that connect to a laptop.


Chuck


>
> Any one else interested?  No date or time or place has been
> set up yet.  Maybe we can start up a Linux newbie group?
>
> I will coordinate any suggestions and let those interested know.
>
> j_wrocky at comcast dot net
>
> Jerry Weihrauch



From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Mon Jun 19 15:53:32 2006
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:53:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAENGHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <061920061910.10564.4496F6A8000BD88E00002944220702095397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
	<DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAENGHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20060619205332.GA15463@mail.el-swifto.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 03:21:26PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> Caribou doesn't have free WiFi, and I think that's important...
> essential.  The Dunn Bros in AV that I suggested does have free WiFi
> as does Panera Bread and Old Chicago pizza (all 3 in AV).  In Eagan,
> Old Chicago pizza and Panera Bread have free WiFi, but the Dunn Bros
> out near/on Dodd Road didn't last time I checked.

There's a coffee shop in Eagan on Lone Oak, on the west side of 35E that
has free wifi.  It's in the same strip mall with a liquor store, so you
can {drown your sorrows, celebrate} when your install {fails, succeeds}.
:-)

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota


From rhubarbpie at poetworld.net  Mon Jun 19 15:50:31 2006
From: rhubarbpie at poetworld.net (rhubarbpie at poetworld.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 15:50:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on IBM Thinkpad
In-Reply-To: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
References: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <44970E17.10809@poetworld.net>

j_wrocky at comcast.net wrote:
> Would like to install a Linux distro and also leave Windows XP Pro on the HDD.
> The Thinkpad is a G40 Series, Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU, 248 MB RAM, 24.GB HDD.
> Is now running Windows XP Pro SP2.
>
> Any recommendations or gotcha's?
>
> I can download and burn any distro on to a CD or DVD.
> I have SimplyMEPIS 6.0rc1 SuSE 10.1 (DVD), Kubuntu 6.06 on CD's now.
>
> I have the IBM restore disks.
>
> Jerry Weihrauch
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   

I'm running compiled LFS Linux on an old A21e Thinkpad and I've noticed 
a couple of things.

If you're using an UltraNav keyboard support varies by kernel version.  
I use 2.6.11.12 which does NOT support both trackpoint and glidepad.  I 
believe newer versions support both.  Another, more serious problem 
concerns suspend.  Although [Fn F4] works with 2.6.11.12, newer kernels 
have been quite troublesome.



From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 17:11:00 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 17:11:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <20060619205332.GA15463@mail.el-swifto.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEKDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John J. Trammell
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 3:54 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] tutorials
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 03:21:26PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> > Caribou doesn't have free WiFi, and I think that's important...
> > essential.  The Dunn Bros in AV that I suggested does have free WiFi
> > as does Panera Bread and Old Chicago pizza (all 3 in AV).  In Eagan,
> > Old Chicago pizza and Panera Bread have free WiFi, but the Dunn Bros
> > out near/on Dodd Road didn't last time I checked.
>
> There's a coffee shop in Eagan on Lone Oak, on the west side
> of 35E that
> has free wifi.  It's in the same strip mall with a liquor
> store, so you
> can {drown your sorrows, celebrate} when your install {fails,
> succeeds}.
> :-)



I think you mean Ambrosia Coffee.  I saw a WiFi sign in their window,
but they had gone a long time (years) saying "it's coming" so I was
still skeptical.  That little strip mall also has an Oasis fast food and
gas stop and I think it has an inexpensive Thai restaurant with lunch
buffet as well.  Joe Sensors sports bar behind that strip mall and
visible on I-35 has free WiFi also, but that's not as suitable for
seating and using several laptops.  Ambrosia is a dump (IMHO), but the
low traffic and adjacent cheapskate options could make it work fine.
FYI, MPC's surplus outlet is just a couple of blocks from there but
that's only open on Thursday and Friday.  Ambrosia isn't a bad choice if
their WiFi really works now.


Chuck



From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Mon Jun 19 17:37:05 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 22:37:05 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
Message-ID: <061920062237.13962.44972711000597A70000368A220073544697050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Doing free wifi on Google in Eagan:

The area around 35E & Yankee Doodle Rd looks pretty good.  I weould be willing to go to any of these.

Caribou Coffee
1380 Duckwood Dr # 101, Eagan, MN

Starbucks
3450 Pilot Knob Rd, St Paul, MN

Caribou Coffee
2149 Cliff Rd, Eagan, MN

  Barnes & Noble
1291 Promenade Place

  Panera Bread Eagan
1260 Promenade Avenue
Eagan, Minnesota 55121 US 

One nomination for Inver Grove - Concord & Highway 52.

Any others?

Stay away from bars, I am a non smoker and don't care to go to places that allow smoking.

Jerry W

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
succeeds}.
> > :-)
> 
> 
> 
> I think you mean Ambrosia Coffee.  I saw a WiFi sign in their window,
> but they had gone a long time (years) saying "it's coming" so I was
> still skeptical.  That little strip mall also has an Oasis fast food and
> gas stop and I think it has an inexpensive Thai restaurant with lunch
> buffet as well.  Joe Sensors sports bar behind that strip mall and
> visible on I-35 has free WiFi also, but that's not as suitable for
> seating and using several laptops.  Ambrosia is a dump (IMHO), but the
> low traffic and adjacent cheapskate options could make it work fine.
> FYI, MPC's surplus outlet is just a couple of blocks from there but
> that's only open on Thursday and Friday.  Ambrosia isn't a bad choice if
> their WiFi really works now.
> 
> 
> Chuck




From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 17:56:28 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 17:56:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials - Ambrosia
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEKDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEKECEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


>
> I think you mean Ambrosia Coffee.  I saw a WiFi sign in their window,
> but they had gone a long time (years) saying "it's coming" so I was
> still skeptical.

Ambrosia Coffee has limited hours, but brunch or lunchtime could work
for some.

hours
Mon-Fri: 6am - 4pm
Sat & Sun closed

Before this goes any further, we should get an idea of how many would
come, and whether picking places or times that rule out attendance by
working folk is a good idea.

Probably MUCH better to suggest that those interested pick some tutorial
to do on their own and bring specific questions from tutorial steps back
here.  Actual newbie meetings are high on logistics and low on outcome
potentials...  IMHO.

but then I can be a curmugeon at times  :-)



Chuck



From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 18:19:42 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:19:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <061920062237.13962.44972711000597A70000368A220073544697050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCEENNHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: j_wrocky at comcast.net [mailto:j_wrocky at comcast.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 5:37 PM
>
> Doing free wifi on Google in Eagan:

Something's wrong with your Googling or something.  Most of the things
that you Googled as "free WiFi" are not and never have been free.  Only
Panera Bread in your list has free WiFi, and you missed several of the
well-established free options like Old Chicago and Joe Spensers that are
not "just bars".


> The area around 35E & Yankee Doodle Rd looks pretty good.  I
> weould be willing to go to any of these.
>
> Caribou Coffee
> 1380 Duckwood Dr # 101, Eagan, MN

Not free.

>
> Starbucks
> 3450 Pilot Knob Rd, St Paul, MN

Not free
>
> Caribou Coffee
> 2149 Cliff Rd, Eagan, MN

Not free

>
>   Barnes & Noble
> 1291 Promenade Place

Not free

>   Panera Bread Eagan
> 1260 Promenade Avenue
> Eagan, Minnesota 55121 US

Free.



>
> One nomination for Inver Grove - Concord & Highway 52.

BYO chairs to sit on the corner???  What's there?  I don't remember that
corner.

>
> Any others?
>
> Stay away from bars, I am a non smoker and don't care to go
> to places that allow smoking.

Some counties and cities have a complete ban now, don't they?

Chuck



From scotjenkins at gmail.com  Mon Jun 19 19:00:49 2006
From: scotjenkins at gmail.com (Scot Jenkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:00:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on IBM Thinkpad
In-Reply-To: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
References: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <a22a1f920606191700v5ceffb58y140b72f7251666f5@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/19/06, j_wrocky at comcast.net <j_wrocky at comcast.net> wrote:
> Would like to install a Linux distro and also leave Windows XP Pro on the
> HDD.
> The Thinkpad is a G40 Series, Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU, 248 MB RAM, 24.GB HDD.
> Is now running Windows XP Pro SP2.
>
> Any recommendations or gotcha's?
>
> I can download and burn any distro on to a CD or DVD.
> I have SimplyMEPIS 6.0rc1 SuSE 10.1 (DVD), Kubuntu 6.06 on CD's now.
>
> I have the IBM restore disks.
>
> Jerry Weihrauch

Windows XP is probably using NTFS filesystem.  Check the kernel for
the distro you plan to use to be sure it supports read/write NTFS
support.  I *think* newer kernel support it but it's been a while
since I last looked.  If not, you might want to create a FAT32
partition so that both Linux and XP can write files to share between
OS's.

Newer Thinkpads were shipping with a "recovery partition".  The idea
being that you've hosted your system and want to do a quick factory
restore.  You boot and press F12 (or some other key) and it
reformats/reinstalls you Windows partition.  You may choose to leave
the recovery partition and use a tool like partition magic or some
such to resize the existing Windows partition to free up space for
Linux.

Myself, I dd'd the recovery partition to an NFS mount to save it (so I
could restore it later).  I then wiped the drive (20 G) and create 4
partitions:

hda1   10G FAT32   windows2000 (games, mp3 mule)
hda2   1G          linux swap
hda3   4G          linux ext2 '/'
hda4   rest        linux ext2 '/data'

I'm using ext2 since ext3 writes to the hard disk nearly constantly
and that just eats the battery.  I gave up trying to figure out how to
tune ext3 to write less often.  Other filesystem may work better but I
haven't tried them.  The down side is if the laptop locks up I have
longer fsck time.  While I have had a few lockups, they've been rare
and usually after a kernel update.   I'm running Debian sarge and for
the most part it's been very stable.

I don't mess with hibernation, although that's supposed to work.  I
just use Fn+F4 and suspend with APM support and that works great.

Good luck and let us know how it went.

Scot


From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Mon Jun 19 21:00:41 2006
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:00:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on IBM Thinkpad
In-Reply-To: <mailman.396.1150756630.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <200606200150.k5K1oG0w002762@delta.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:37:21 +0000
> From: j_wrocky at comcast.net

> Would like to install a Linux distro and also leave Windows 
> XP Pro on the HDD.
> The Thinkpad is a G40 Series, Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU, 248 MB 
> RAM, 24.GB HDD.
> Is now running Windows XP Pro SP2.
> 
> Any recommendations or gotcha's?

www.thinkwiki.org



From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Mon Jun 19 21:19:21 2006
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:19:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCEENNHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <061920062237.13962.44972711000597A70000368A220073544697050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
	<DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCEENNHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20060620021921.GA19780@mail.el-swifto.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 06:19:42PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
[snip]
> Only Panera Bread in your list has free WiFi, and you missed several
> of the well-established free options like Old Chicago and Joe Spensers
> that are not "just bars".

One more--there's a Dakota County library branch further south (Pilot
Knob & Wescott I think) that has wireless.

	http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/library/services.htm

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 19 21:38:40 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:38:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <20060620021921.GA19780@mail.el-swifto.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEEKFCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John J. Trammell
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 06:19:42PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> [snip]
> > Only Panera Bread in your list has free WiFi, and you missed several
> > of the well-established free options like Old Chicago and
> Joe Spensers
> > that are not "just bars".
>
> One more--there's a Dakota County library branch further south (Pilot
> Knob & Wescott I think) that has wireless.
>
> 	http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/library/services.htm
>

Same at Galaxie library in AV and probably all Dakota libraries now.


Chuck



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Jun 20 05:34:43 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 05:34:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <29260880.1150733696254.JavaMail.root@sniper10>
References: <mailman.5.1150650003.28582.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<29260880.1150733696254.JavaMail.root@sniper10>
Message-ID: <200606200534.44308.jus@krytosvirus.com>

On Monday 19 June 2006 11:05 am, jerry Nolan wrote:
> I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
> Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
> effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
> anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
> 10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
> some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
> etc.     Jerry Nolan

Hey, I live in CG myself, had fun with my daughter at Strawberry Fest last 
weekend.

I have a printed 0.84 version of Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition which is 
also freely available online. It used to be rute.sourceforge.net but it is 
apparently gone from there. I found it on google at for example: 
http://www.chongluo.com/books/rute/.

This is a very detailed book that helps cover the fundamentals of computing 
and also Linux. Many concepts are applicable to all *nix such as the 
principle that everything in the file system is a file: files, directories, 
character devices, hardware, sockets, links, etc. Other basic commands are 
also generally available across all *nix OSs like ls, grep, find, tar, sed, 
ps, shells and piping, etc. 

I did not read all of this by any means but I did start reading from the 
beginning and it really helped me understand some of the important 
princicples of computing. I mostly used it as a reference guide as I wanted 
to know more about something I would jump to that chapter and read up on the 
specific topic. Then when I understood the info there I would either apply 
that to what I wanted to do or else read online for any additional 
information which was usually extremely easy to digest at that point with 
only needing to comprehend the details and not the concepts since most 
documentation online covers the details and not the concepts and are not very 
good at teaching only showing you how to do.

I use Gentoo on my desktop at home and have used the same installation of 
Gentoo for the last 4+ years. I use Linux a lot at work as well maintaining 
many Linux servers.


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Jun 20 10:46:21 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 10:46:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Microsoft Wireless Laser Destkop 6000 and Linux
In-Reply-To: <20060618172728.GQ7905@iucha.net>
References: <20060618172728.GQ7905@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <20060620154621.GW7905@iucha.net>

On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 12:27:28PM -0500,  wrote:
> I have just got the wireless keyboard and mouse combo mentioned in the
> title, set it up and ... nothing. Linux does not recognize it.

Just for the record: the particular unit I had was broken, it would
not work even in Windows.  I have exchanged it and the second one
works fine on both my computers, running Linux.

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From john.meier at gmail.com  Tue Jun 20 13:11:48 2006
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:11:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] snmpwalk across IPCop firewall
Message-ID: <65293fcc0606201111y1289090bn65e2bbb1f0fa733a@mail.gmail.com>

I have a small temp/humidify device that I'm trying to get some values from
via snmpwalk. The device is behind an IPCop firewall and I'm forwarding port
161 (UDP) from the external IPCop interface to the internal IP of the device
at port 161.  I'm getting nothing.

am I missing something here - I figured it'd be like forwarding web traffic
but I guess not....?  I tried it with a netgear and linksys consumer grade
gateway/firewall - same thing.....
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From sac at cheesecake.org  Tue Jun 20 13:59:59 2006
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:59:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] snmpwalk across IPCop firewall
In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0606201111y1289090bn65e2bbb1f0fa733a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <65293fcc0606201111y1289090bn65e2bbb1f0fa733a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060620185959.GA4902@cheesecake.org>

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 at 13.11.48 -0500, John Meier wrote:
> I have a small temp/humidify device that I'm trying to get some values from
> via snmpwalk. The device is behind an IPCop firewall and I'm forwarding port
> 161 (UDP) from the external IPCop interface to the internal IP of the device
> at port 161.  I'm getting nothing.
> 
> am I missing something here - I figured it'd be like forwarding web traffic
> but I guess not....?  I tried it with a netgear and linksys consumer grade
> gateway/firewall - same thing.....

and so to debug your network problem, you ran a packet sniffer and it
told you.................

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Jun 20 18:17:02 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:17:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] snmpwalk across IPCop firewall
In-Reply-To: <9253877.1150830782214.JavaMail.root@sniper28>
References: <65293fcc0606201111y1289090bn65e2bbb1f0fa733a@mail.gmail.com>
	<9253877.1150830782214.JavaMail.root@sniper28>
Message-ID: <200606201817.03317.jus@krytosvirus.com>

On Tuesday 20 June 2006 01:59 pm, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 at 13.11.48 -0500, John Meier wrote:
> > I have a small temp/humidify device that I'm trying to get some values
> > from via snmpwalk. The device is behind an IPCop firewall and I'm
> > forwarding port 161 (UDP) from the external IPCop interface to the
> > internal IP of the device at port 161.  I'm getting nothing.
> >
> > am I missing something here - I figured it'd be like forwarding web
> > traffic but I guess not....?  I tried it with a netgear and linksys
> > consumer grade gateway/firewall - same thing.....
>
> and so to debug your network problem, you ran a packet sniffer and it
> told you.................

Often time snmp capable devices require you to specify what hosts are allowed 
to send SNMP polls from. Make sure you're using the correct community string. 
Make sure you're using the correct version of snmp. Also did you try 
snmpstatus just to see if it works at all?


From noly747 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 07:33:46 2006
From: noly747 at gmail.com (jerry Nolan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:33:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <200606200534.44308.jus@krytosvirus.com>
References: <mailman.5.1150650003.28582.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<29260880.1150733696254.JavaMail.root@sniper10>
	<200606200534.44308.jus@krytosvirus.com>
Message-ID: <a636ca1d0606210533qeb1eb0av390eff0484bbad9a@mail.gmail.com>

AV is a little far for me too.  Since 3 of us live in SE metro maybe
we can find someplace mutually agreeable.  I don't have a laptop yet
so wifi isn't a requirement for me, but would be fun to watch others
browse with the various distros...

On 6/20/06, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> On Monday 19 June 2006 11:05 am, jerry Nolan wrote:
> > I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired in Cottage
> > Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more knowledge to use
> > effectively.  I have several other distros on cd that I can share if
> > anyone is interested in a tutorial meeting. I have fc4&5, slack
> > 10.2&10.1,gentoo 2004.2,mandriva,  ubuntu, suse 9.2, free bsd6.0, plus
> > some disks that come with "linux format mag" like skype, several games
> > etc.     Jerry Nolan
>
> Hey, I live in CG myself, had fun with my daughter at Strawberry Fest last
> weekend.
>
> I have a printed 0.84 version of Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition which is
> also freely available online. It used to be rute.sourceforge.net but it is
> apparently gone from there. I found it on google at for example:
> http://www.chongluo.com/books/rute/.
>
> This is a very detailed book that helps cover the fundamentals of computing
> and also Linux. Many concepts are applicable to all *nix such as the
> principle that everything in the file system is a file: files, directories,
> character devices, hardware, sockets, links, etc. Other basic commands are
> also generally available across all *nix OSs like ls, grep, find, tar, sed,
> ps, shells and piping, etc.
>
> I did not read all of this by any means but I did start reading from the
> beginning and it really helped me understand some of the important
> princicples of computing. I mostly used it as a reference guide as I wanted
> to know more about something I would jump to that chapter and read up on the
> specific topic. Then when I understood the info there I would either apply
> that to what I wanted to do or else read online for any additional
> information which was usually extremely easy to digest at that point with
> only needing to comprehend the details and not the concepts since most
> documentation online covers the details and not the concepts and are not very
> good at teaching only showing you how to do.
>
> I use Gentoo on my desktop at home and have used the same installation of
> Gentoo for the last 4+ years. I use Linux a lot at work as well maintaining
> many Linux servers.
>


From john.meier at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 10:29:27 2006
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 10:29:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] snmpwalk across IPCop firewall [SOLVED]
Message-ID: <65293fcc0606210829s4873f05bsb311e81be4084b04@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/20/06, John Meier <john.meier at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a small temp/humidify device that I'm trying to get some values
> from via snmpwalk. The device is behind an IPCop firewall and I'm forwarding
> port 161 (UDP) from the external IPCop interface to the internal IP of the
> device at port 161.  I'm getting nothing.
>
> am I missing something here - I figured it'd be like forwarding web
> traffic but I guess not....?  I tried it with a netgear and linksys consumer
> grade gateway/firewall - same thing.....
>


Thanks all for the responses - it was a PEBKAC - my snmp ready device was
not getting the correct default gateway for some reason.  I manually added
the gateway and everything worked as I thought it should in the first place.
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From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Wed Jun 21 11:19:01 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:19:01 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Tutor
Message-ID: <062120061619.27348.449971750007594D00006AD4220075894297050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

Hello Jeff,

More like two so far.  Jerry Nolan and I so far, we live pretty close to each 
other, maybe one more from Cottage Grove where Jerry Nolan lives.  I live in 
South St Paul.  Have just emailed Jerry and trying to set up date and time.  He 
is retired like myself so that gives us a lot of time choices.

Jerry W


 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jeff Rasmussen" <jeff.rasmussen at gmail.com>
> Did you both get inundated with responses?  I love working with this stuff
> and would love to try to help.  I have been running Linux for the last 3
> years and my main job is working IT for Windows computers and servers.
> 
> I don't have a ton of time because of the family, but if we were able to do
> some remote session sharing or use online chatting while we explore Linux.
> I think it would be fun but my wife tells me I have a weird sense of fun. :)
> 
> Jeff Rasmussen
> 
> On 6/18/06, Eugene Samuel <esamuel at mn.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking to a Linux tutor in South Metro area.
> > I have been dabbeling with several linux distros for the past year and I
> > need help filling many gaps in my knowledge.
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Rasmussen
> GPG public key 0x9686C12F


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Wed Jun 21 15:15:44 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:15:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anybody know hoe many people are on the list?
Message-ID: <4499A8F0.2090809@mchsi.com>

Does anybody know how many people are subscribed to this list? I am 
curious how many members we are up to, as well as how many are 
subscribed to this list... just curious to see how he have grown. : )

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From jimdscott at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 11:21:29 2006
From: jimdscott at gmail.com (jim scott)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:21:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comparing two text files
Message-ID: <c2c8c3a0606220921h2ae56d7dy15a616916b4e234f@mail.gmail.com>

I have two text files, an original version and a new version. What I want to
do is to create a third file which is the original version plus marked-up
changes for the new version. Is this a good job for diff or is there a
better application for my problem? Thanks.

Example:

File 1:
foo bar

File 2:
foo foo bar

New file 3:
foo +++foo+++ bar

(I don't care much about how the added text is marked up, just so that it is
marked up.)
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From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jun 22 11:57:51 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 11:57:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comparing two text files
In-Reply-To: <c2c8c3a0606220921h2ae56d7dy15a616916b4e234f@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <c2c8c3a0606220921h2ae56d7dy15a616916b4e234f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060622165751.9380B23AB@skuld.wookimus.net>

"jim scott" <jimdscott at gmail.com>  wrote:
> I have two text files, an original version and a new version. What I
> want to do is to create a third file which is the original version
> plus marked-up changes for the new version. Is this a good job for
> diff or is there a better application for my problem? Thanks.

This is wdiff does, almost to a "T" with what you want.  It uses
bracketd "+" and "-" characters to denote change.

#!/bin/sh
# Test wdiff

# set up files
echo foo bar > foo.1
echo foo foo bar > foo.2

# Now test insertion
wdiff foo.1 foo.2 > foo.1-2
# You should see:
# foo {+foo+} bar

# Now test removal
wdiff foo.2 foo.1 > foo.2-1
# You should see:
# foo [-foo-] bar
#EOF

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From jimdscott at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 12:17:00 2006
From: jimdscott at gmail.com (jim scott)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comparing two text files
In-Reply-To: <20060622165751.9380B23AB@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <c2c8c3a0606220921h2ae56d7dy15a616916b4e234f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060622165751.9380B23AB@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <c2c8c3a0606221017k645de990hd846ff77a6032058@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the suggestion!

On 6/22/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>
> "jim scott" <jimdscott at gmail.com>  wrote:
> > I have two text files, an original version and a new version. What I
> > want to do is to create a third file which is the original version
> > plus marked-up changes for the new version. Is this a good job for
> > diff or is there a better application for my problem? Thanks.
>
> This is wdiff does, almost to a "T" with what you want.  It uses
> bracketd "+" and "-" characters to denote change.
>
> #!/bin/sh
> # Test wdiff
>
> # set up files
> echo foo bar > foo.1
> echo foo foo bar > foo.2
>
> # Now test insertion
> wdiff foo.1 foo.2 > foo.1-2
> # You should see:
> # foo {+foo+} bar
>
> # Now test removal
> wdiff foo.2 foo.1 > foo.2-1
> # You should see:
> # foo [-foo-] bar
> #EOF
>
> --
> Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
>            assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
http://ThreeWayNews.blogspot.com
Your source. For everything. Really.
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From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Fri Jun 23 09:00:38 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:00:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a copy of SuSe linux version 7?
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF5FC@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

We have a project that requires that we test it on SuSe Linux Version 7.  Stop laughing, I'm serious.  I can't seem to find one on the internet.  Anyone have a copy we can borrow or download?

Wayne Johnson 
Senior Software Engineer 
MQSoftware, Inc. 
1660 S Highway 100 
Minneapolis, MN 55416 
(952) 345-8628 

 
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From swaite at sbn-services.com  Fri Jun 23 12:49:14 2006
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:49:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a copy of SuSe linux version 7?
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF5FC@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF5FC@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200606231249.AA49140016@sbn-services.com>

Just in case no one locally has a copy, I might suggest going to forums.suselinuxsupport.de and www.suseforums.net to 
request help there. They are two really good sources for Suse help, hopefully someone might have a link to an archive. 
Also you may want to check usenet, and request in several of the Linux binary groups. I see people posting old Linux versions
there all the time.

Sean Waite



-----Original Message-----
From: "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>
To: "Tclug-List \(E-mail\)" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:00:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Does anyone have a copy of SuSe linux version 7?

> We have a project that requires that we test it on SuSe Linux Version 7.  Stop laughing, I'm serious.  I can't seem to find one on
> the internet.  Anyone have a copy we can borrow or download?
> 
> Wayne Johnson 
> Senior Software Engineer 
> MQSoftware, Inc. 
> 1660 S Highway 100 
> Minneapolis, MN 55416 
> (952) 345-8628 
> 
>  
> 




From srcfoo at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 15:27:20 2006
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:27:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Postgresql8.1 hide schema/database/etc
Message-ID: <579c6fd30606231327g6e17364fse7c036bf45d266f@mail.gmail.com>

We have an application that uses a Postgresql database on the backend.
We have multiple customers accessing the application through a web
portal that determines who the user is and then connects them to their
own private database.  Now we would like to give the customer access
to their database through ODBC connections so they can generate
reports and all that good stuff.

The problem is that with Postgresql I can not find a way to hide
database info. A user is NOT able to retrieve DATA stored in tables
from a DB/schema that they don't have privilege to, but they are able
to see the table structure, other database names, and even login
roles.

Does anyone know how to prevent access to table structure and database roles?

Thanks,
Eric


From austad at signal15.com  Fri Jun 23 16:26:27 2006
From: austad at signal15.com (Jay Austad)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:26:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] voip service
Message-ID: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>

Anyone know of a good cheap VOIP service I can use to replace my home  
phone line?  Whatever it is, it has to be able to connect via and IAX  
trunk or SIP to my Asterisk server.

I was thinking Voicepulse, does anyone know of any other good ones?   
Cheap is best.

~jay



From sac at cheesecake.org  Fri Jun 23 16:51:04 2006
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:51:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] voip service
In-Reply-To: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
References: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
Message-ID: <20060623215104.GA18503@cheesecake.org>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 at 16.26.27 -0500, Jay Austad wrote:
> Anyone know of a good cheap VOIP service I can use to replace my home  
> phone line?  Whatever it is, it has to be able to connect via and IAX  
> trunk or SIP to my Asterisk server.
> 
> I was thinking Voicepulse, does anyone know of any other good ones?   
> Cheap is best.

Teliax looked good to me when I investigated IAX peering, but I haven't
used them (or anyone else.)

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From austad at signal15.com  Fri Jun 23 17:19:12 2006
From: austad at signal15.com (Jay Austad)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:19:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] voip service
In-Reply-To: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
References: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
Message-ID: <0FC62115-4A1B-4A45-884F-721FE37CAA39@signal15.com>

Ah, I forgot to mention, if the provider supports g.729 it would be a  
huge bonus.  Teliax and Voicepulse do not support this codec.

~jay

On Jun 23, 2006, at 4:26 PM, Jay Austad wrote:

> Anyone know of a good cheap VOIP service I can use to replace my home
> phone line?  Whatever it is, it has to be able to connect via and IAX
> trunk or SIP to my Asterisk server.
>
> I was thinking Voicepulse, does anyone know of any other good ones?
> Cheap is best.
>
> ~jay
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



From tclug at natecarlson.com  Sat Jun 24 00:21:59 2006
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:21:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] voip service
In-Reply-To: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
References: <820674C0-C77E-47F8-8A00-5057ECFE56E6@signal15.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606240020360.24156@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Fri, 23 Jun 2006, Jay Austad wrote:
> Anyone know of a good cheap VOIP service I can use to replace my home 
> phone line?  Whatever it is, it has to be able to connect via and IAX 
> trunk or SIP to my Asterisk server.
>
> I was thinking Voicepulse, does anyone know of any other good ones? 
> Cheap is best.

Junction Networks is great.

If you want E911, check out sound choice - www.soundchoicecomm.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tanner at real-time.com  Sun Jun 25 04:12:04 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 04:12:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <e7lk14$72c$1@sea.gmane.org>

Wayne Johnson wrote:

> Be it resolved:
> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> 

Denied.

Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to vote for the
removal of the yahoo ban.

There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups lists them all,
gmail is my favorite.

Don't like gmail?

Can read this group in many other was:

        http://dir.gmane.org/

I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space when someone else
is willing to waste their disk space :-)

        http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug

You can even post via gmane.

        http://gmane.org/post.php
-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 12:27:43 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:27:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Additional bash scripting question
Message-ID: <bada98250606251027r44924ad0q3cb4e6cbb71d4b63@mail.gmail.com>

I have this working:

#!/bin/bash
IFS="
"
for i in `find . -name '*.tar'`; do
 case "$i" in
   *.tar)
      mkdir `basename "$i" .tar`
      cd `basename "$i" .tar`
      tar xvf ../"$i"
      cd ..
      mv "$i" /home/hewhocutsdown/.Trash/
      ;;
 esac
done

This works fine. I'm trying to tinker with it so that it'll do the
same with .cbt files, except they don't need the folder to be made, in
fact it's counter-productive. .cbt files are simply tar files, and
with the previous version of Gnome I could merely right-click and
extract them, but now I can't, so I may be required to rename the
extension to .tar. (a 'mv' command I'm assuming) but so far nothing's
worked. This is what I tried;

#!/bin/bash
IFS="
"
for i in `find . -name '*.cbt'`; do
 case "$i" in
   *.cbt)
      mv `basename "$i" .cbt` `basename "$i" .tar` # fails
      mkdir `basename "$i" .cbt` # unneeded
      cd `basename "$i" .cbt` # uneeded
      tar xvf ../"$i" # fails
      cd ..
      mv "$i" /home/user/.Trash/ # works
      ;;
 esac
done

I just need tar to extract the archive in the immediate directory
(there's no chance of overwriting, so I'm not concerned with that) and
then dispose of the archive.

Thanks thanks

                      -jordan


From jack at jacku.com  Mon Jun 26 00:39:48 2006
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:39:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tutorials
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCKENAHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCKENAHGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200606260039.48892.jack@jacku.com>

Just got back in town from a week away and feel the need to plug the Twin 
Cities PC User Group's  "Linux on Saturday" sessions. We have a lot of 
beginners and folks that have been trying various things for a while now. All 
are welcome we meet the second Saturday of the month from 9-11 AM at the 
Eagles lodge in Bloomington. More info at www.tcpc.com

On Monday 19 June 2006 12:32 pm, Chuck Cole wrote:
> Great suggestion!  I think the self-paced options are best, and
> occasionally meeting for BS and coffee may be a way to keep moving or to
> learn some tricks.
>
> Chuck
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Donovan Niesen [mailto:dniesen at gmail.com]
> >
> >
> > If you're wanting a good fundamental tutorial and you're cheap (like
> > myself), The Linux Documentation Project has a fantastic "Introduction
> > to Linux" tutorial:  http://www.tldp.org/guides.html
> >
> > I've personally found it best to go through guides like this and learn
> > the fundamentals then look for guides for specific distros or tasks
> > that you're trying to accomplish.  It is a learning preference and I
> > find that I learn better by going through tutorials like this and then
> > seeking help if I'm really stuck on something.
> >
> > On 6/19/06, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Might be better to buy a book - something like Sam's "Teach Yourself
> > > Linux in 24 hours" and do a study group that meets at WiFi hotspots
> > > occasionally.  I think there are some online tutorials also, but I
> > > haven't looked lately.  For stuff that's distro-specific, might be
> > > better to stick with mailing lists for beginners in that distro.  If
> > > most are in the South end of town, how about Dunn Bros in
> >
> > Apple Valley?
> >
> > > Chuck
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of jerry Nolan
> > > >
> > > > I also am interested in a tutorial session. I am retired
> >
> > in Cottage
> >
> > > > Grove and have installed FC2&3 but I need a lot more
> >
> > knowledge to use
> >
> > > > effectively.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From jack at jacku.com  Mon Jun 26 00:45:31 2006
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:45:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on IBM Thinkpad
In-Reply-To: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
References: <061920061937.10174.4496FCF1000E40D4000027BE220702163397050C019D99A106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200606260045.31192.jack@jacku.com>

On Monday 19 June 2006 2:37 pm, j_wrocky at comcast.net wrote:
> Would like to install a Linux distro and also leave Windows XP Pro on the
> HDD. The Thinkpad is a G40 Series, Celeron 2.4 GHz CPU, 248 MB RAM, 24.GB
> HDD. Is now running Windows XP Pro SP2.
>
> Any recommendations or gotcha's?
>
> I can download and burn any distro on to a CD or DVD.
> I have SimplyMEPIS 6.0rc1 SuSE 10.1 (DVD), Kubuntu 6.06 on CD's now.
>
> I have the IBM restore disks.
>
> Jerry Weihrauch

As a long time SuSE user I recommend that. I ran various versions on a 
Thinkpad A22m until I replaced it last year. The newer versions of SUSE will 
deal with setting up the dual boot using NTFS resize utility.  One thing to 
do before loading is a scandisk and defrag to move data to the "front" of the 
NTFS partition. The SUSE setup should then give you the option of sizing the 
partition. NTFS reading is built in so you should be able to read files from 
the Windows partition. You'll need a utility like NTFS capture to write. 

If you've got built in WiFi in the laptop check the chipset. You may need to 
use NDISWrapper or Linuxant's DriverLoader to use the wifi.

-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Jun 26 06:16:53 2006
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:16:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Additional bash scripting question
In-Reply-To: <10461139.1151256921336.JavaMail.root@sniper33>
References: <10461139.1151256921336.JavaMail.root@sniper33>
Message-ID: <200606260616.54648.jus@krytosvirus.com>

On Sunday 25 June 2006 12:27 pm, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> I have this working:
>
> #!/bin/bash
> IFS="
> "
> for i in `find . -name '*.tar'`; do
>  case "$i" in
>    *.tar)
>       mkdir `basename "$i" .tar`
>       cd `basename "$i" .tar`
>       tar xvf ../"$i"
>       cd ..
>       mv "$i" /home/hewhocutsdown/.Trash/
>       ;;
>  esac
> done
>
> This works fine. I'm trying to tinker with it so that it'll do the
> same with .cbt files, except they don't need the folder to be made, in
> fact it's counter-productive. .cbt files are simply tar files, and
> with the previous version of Gnome I could merely right-click and
> extract them, but now I can't, so I may be required to rename the
> extension to .tar. (a 'mv' command I'm assuming) but so far nothing's
> worked. This is what I tried;
>
> #!/bin/bash
> IFS="
> "
> for i in `find . -name '*.cbt'`; do
>  case "$i" in
>    *.cbt)
>       mv `basename "$i" .cbt` `basename "$i" .tar` # fails
>       mkdir `basename "$i" .cbt` # unneeded
>       cd `basename "$i" .cbt` # uneeded
>       tar xvf ../"$i" # fails
>       cd ..
>       mv "$i" /home/user/.Trash/ # works
>       ;;
>  esac
> done
>
> I just need tar to extract the archive in the immediate directory
> (there's no chance of overwriting, so I'm not concerned with that) and
> then dispose of the archive.
>
> Thanks thanks
>
>                       -jordan

So if you need to extract all of the cbt (tar) files to the current directory 
why not just do something like this

find . -type f -name '*.cbt' -exec tar -xvf '{}' \;


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 07:31:53 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:31:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd:  Additional bash scripting question
In-Reply-To: <bada98250606260531s6498fff6y1d9efc88a40d594c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10461139.1151256921336.JavaMail.root@sniper33>
	<200606260616.54648.jus@krytosvirus.com>
	<bada98250606260531s6498fff6y1d9efc88a40d594c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250606260531v5f74a721n637dbc6a0d8922e9@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com>
Date: Jun 26, 2006 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Additional bash scripting question
To: Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com>


That worked perfectly!

Guess I was making things overly complicated, hey? Thank you

                   -jordan

On 6/26/06, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> On Sunday 25 June 2006 12:27 pm, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> > I have this working:
> >
> > #!/bin/bash
> > IFS="
> > "
> > for i in `find . -name '*.tar'`; do
> >  case "$i" in
> >    *.tar)
> >       mkdir `basename "$i" .tar`
> >       cd `basename "$i" .tar`
> >       tar xvf ../"$i"
> >       cd ..
> >       mv "$i" /home/hewhocutsdown/.Trash/
> >       ;;
> >  esac
> > done
> >
> > This works fine. I'm trying to tinker with it so that it'll do the
> > same with .cbt files, except they don't need the folder to be made, in
> > fact it's counter-productive. .cbt files are simply tar files, and
> > with the previous version of Gnome I could merely right-click and
> > extract them, but now I can't, so I may be required to rename the
> > extension to .tar. (a 'mv' command I'm assuming) but so far nothing's
> > worked. This is what I tried;
> >
> > #!/bin/bash
> > IFS="
> > "
> > for i in `find . -name '*.cbt'`; do
> >  case "$i" in
> >    *.cbt)
> >       mv `basename "$i" .cbt` `basename "$i" .tar` # fails
> >       mkdir `basename "$i" .cbt` # unneeded
> >       cd `basename "$i" .cbt` # uneeded
> >       tar xvf ../"$i" # fails
> >       cd ..
> >       mv "$i" /home/user/.Trash/ # works
> >       ;;
> >  esac
> > done
> >
> > I just need tar to extract the archive in the immediate directory
> > (there's no chance of overwriting, so I'm not concerned with that) and
> > then dispose of the archive.
> >
> > Thanks thanks
> >
> >                       -jordan
>
> So if you need to extract all of the cbt (tar) files to the current directory
> why not just do something like this
>
> find . -type f -name '*.cbt' -exec tar -xvf '{}' \;
>


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 08:27:53 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:27:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.

Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> Wayne Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Be it resolved:
> > I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> > 
> 
> Denied.
> 
> Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to 
> vote for the
> removal of the yahoo ban.
> 
> There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups 
> lists them all,
> gmail is my favorite.
> 
> Don't like gmail?
> 
> Can read this group in many other was:
> 
>         http://dir.gmane.org/
> 
> I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space 
> when someone else
> is willing to waste their disk space :-)
> 
>         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> 
> You can even post via gmane.
> 
>         http://gmane.org/post.php
> -- 
> Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 08:57:22 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:57:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF641@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?

http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:28 AM
> To: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> 
> Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
> > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> > 
> > 
> > Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > > Be it resolved:
> > > I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> > > 
> > 
> > Denied.
> > 
> > Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to 
> > vote for the
> > removal of the yahoo ban.
> > 
> > There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups 
> > lists them all,
> > gmail is my favorite.
> > 
> > Don't like gmail?
> > 
> > Can read this group in many other was:
> > 
> >         http://dir.gmane.org/
> > 
> > I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space 
> > when someone else
> > is willing to waste their disk space :-)
> > 
> >         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> > 
> > You can even post via gmane.
> > 
> >         http://gmane.org/post.php
> > -- 
> > Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> > http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> > Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 08:57:22 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:57:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

[Sorry, should have changed the subject.]

Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?

http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:28 AM
> To: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> 
> Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
> > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> > 
> > 
> > Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > > Be it resolved:
> > > I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> > > 
> > 
> > Denied.
> > 
> > Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to 
> > vote for the
> > removal of the yahoo ban.
> > 
> > There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups 
> > lists them all,
> > gmail is my favorite.
> > 
> > Don't like gmail?
> > 
> > Can read this group in many other was:
> > 
> >         http://dir.gmane.org/
> > 
> > I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space 
> > when someone else
> > is willing to waste their disk space :-)
> > 
> >         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> > 
> > You can even post via gmane.
> > 
> >         http://gmane.org/post.php
> > -- 
> > Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> > http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> > Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From nate at refried.org  Mon Jun 26 09:45:16 2006
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:45:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060626144516.GA1212@refried.org>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 08:57:22AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
> 
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug

Nope.  This list has served me just fine for the past six years.  I
trust Mr. Tanner's expertise in running this list.

Nate

P.S. I'm surprised you didn't make the new list in Yahoo Groups.  *ducks*


From klinej at msoe.edu  Mon Jun 26 09:59:19 2006
From: klinej at msoe.edu (Jonathan Kline)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:59:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re:  Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <200606260959.20679.klinej@msoe.edu>

Wayne,

Grow up. The decision was made a long time ago to block yahoo senders. Bob 
provided a way for you to remove this ban: A poll and get a majority of the 
members to agree to it.

Bob and crew do an excellent job maintaining this list, keeping it ontopic 
more or less, and keeping it free of spam.

If you take the attitude of fine, I didn't get my way, so I don't care about 
the rest of you, then I'm leaving and going to do my own thing, you won't get 
very far. You won't get very far.

Oh and did I mention I won't be leaving TCLUG to join your "free" TCLUG?

~J

On Monday 26 June 2006 08:57, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> [Sorry, should have changed the subject.]
>
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
>
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:28 AM
> > To: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> >
> >
> > Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> >
> > Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
> > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> > >
> > > Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > > > Be it resolved:
> > > > I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> > >
> > > Denied.
> > >
> > > Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to
> > > vote for the
> > > removal of the yahoo ban.
> > >
> > > There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups
> > > lists them all,
> > > gmail is my favorite.
> > >
> > > Don't like gmail?
> > >
> > > Can read this group in many other was:
> > >
> > >         http://dir.gmane.org/
> > >
> > > I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space
> > > when someone else
> > > is willing to waste their disk space :-)
> > >
> > >         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> > >
> > > You can even post via gmane.
> > >
> > >         http://gmane.org/post.php
> > > --
> > > Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> > > http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> > > Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Jun 26 10:13:16 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:13:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060626151316.D812F21F9@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?

ROFL!  Have fun talking to yourself! ;-)
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 10:23:43 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:23:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

First, let me apologize for my inappropriate comments.  They were uncalled for.  It was a knee-jerk reaction and I know better than doing this.

However, in my defense, I would like to say if they has said something like, "we understand your pain and we'll help by setting up a poll to see what the users want", it would have gone over much better than "Denied".  My intent on creating this discussion thread was to get a consensus from the list members.  Although it was not an "official" poll, it was my attempt at such.  Yes, Bob offered alternatives, most of which I had already said were difficult to deal with.

I would like to continue to be active in TCLUG, but my efforts at organizing the installfest were greatly hampered due to the logistics of having to forward e-mails from one account to another, as well as publicly exposing my employers e-mail and domain address to the spam fiends.  It also makes me feel like a second class citizen in TCLUG.

Is there a procedure for setting up this official poll?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne Johnson 
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:57 AM
> To: Wayne Johnson; tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> [Sorry, should have changed the subject.]
> 
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
> 
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:28 AM
> > To: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> > 
> > 
> > Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> > 
> > Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with 
> fewer Nazis?
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
> > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Be it resolved:
> > > > I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Denied.
> > > 
> > > Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to 
> > > vote for the
> > > removal of the yahoo ban.
> > > 
> > > There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups 
> > > lists them all,
> > > gmail is my favorite.
> > > 
> > > Don't like gmail?
> > > 
> > > Can read this group in many other was:
> > > 
> > >         http://dir.gmane.org/
> > > 
> > > I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space 
> > > when someone else
> > > is willing to waste their disk space :-)
> > > 
> > >         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> > > 
> > > You can even post via gmane.
> > > 
> > >         http://gmane.org/post.php
> > > -- 
> > > Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> > > http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> > > Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 
> A709 2CC1 B288
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > 
> 


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun 26 10:27:55 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:27:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF641@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF641@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060626152755.GA29271@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 08:57:22AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
> 
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug

I'm fed up with this splintering! Anyone who cares should join me in
creating the "tclug-free" and mailing list. With blackjack and...

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun 26 10:33:00 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:33:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060626153300.GB29271@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 08:27:53AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.

With you so far.

> Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?

Wayne, you are a nice guy. Bob is a nice guy. I don't know what put
you over the top, especially since a couple of days passed since Bob's 
reply, but it can't be good. I believe some apologies are in order.

florin

PS: Since you haven't got enough people to care about your motion, what
makes you think you will get anybody to subscribe to any other list?

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 10:47:51 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:47:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF649@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Yea, I already posted an apology.  Guess I shouldn't be allowed to use
e-mail on Monday mornings.

The reason it took me so long to respond was because it came to my work
e-mail, not my yahoo account, which is exactly why I'm complaining.  I
check the home e-mail almost hourly (I have a laptop in the living
room), where the work email is intentionally ignored when I'm not at
work.

And, Bob, please understand, it's not anything personal, just FED UP TO
HERE [teeth grating] with the problem.  I understand you have
alternatives.  I've been there, and I've tried those.  I've had my yahoo
account for many years.  Many people use this account to contact me.
I'm a member of dozens of mailing lists using my yahoo account.  The
yahoo spam filter does a pretty good job at filtering the spam out
(something my Linux account does not).  I wish there was a decent
version of Spam-bayes for Linux.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florin Iucha [mailto:florin at iucha.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 10:33 AM
> To: Wayne Johnson
> Cc: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 08:27:53AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> 
> With you so far.
> 
> > Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with 
> fewer Nazis?
> 
> Wayne, you are a nice guy. Bob is a nice guy. I don't know what put
> you over the top, especially since a couple of days passed 
> since Bob's 
> reply, but it can't be good. I believe some apologies are in order.
> 
> florin
> 
> PS: Since you haven't got enough people to care about your 
> motion, what
> makes you think you will get anybody to subscribe to any other list?
> 
> -- 
> If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
> produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
> 


From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Jun 26 11:04:00 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:04:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF649@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF649@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060626160400.0BDC121F9@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> And, Bob, please understand, it's not anything personal, just FED UP
> TO HERE [teeth grating] with the problem.

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-June/027635.html

> The yahoo spam filter does a pretty good job at filtering the spam
> out (something my Linux account does not).  I wish there was a
> decent version of Spam-bayes for Linux.

Do you realize how ironic that sounds?  It tells me that you really
haven't done your homework yet.  Personally, I like crm114.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun 26 11:18:57 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:18:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7lk14$72c$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF4FD@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7lk14$72c$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261112390.27684@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:

> Wayne Johnson wrote:
>
>> Be it resolved:
>> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
>
> Denied.

No discussion, no explanation?  That's how I'm reading it.

I asked how the system works and I believe I was not told the answer.  I 
will now make a guess:

Guess #1: tclug-list accepts messages only from subscribers.
Guess #2: tclug-list has sometimes had bots subscribe and spam the list
Guess #3: the bot subscribers have sometimes had yahoo.com addresses
Guess #4: Yahoo bots have caused problems for list administrators
Guess #5: to avoid further trouble, yahoo.com addresses are blocked from 
subscribing

That might all be wrong, but if it is right, why can't we just subscribe 
Wayne Johnson's yahoo.com account and continue to block others?

Mike


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 11:20:05 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:20:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF650@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

No, not heard of it.  Thanks for the suggestion.  The wonderful thing about Linux is you learn something new every day.

I tend to stick with the Fedora distributed stuff when possible.  I just don't have time (nor the hardware yet) to run everything.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chad Walstrom
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:04 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> > And, Bob, please understand, it's not anything personal, just FED UP
> > TO HERE [teeth grating] with the problem.
> 
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-June/02
7635.html

> The yahoo spam filter does a pretty good job at filtering the spam
> out (something my Linux account does not).  I wish there was a
> decent version of Spam-bayes for Linux.

Do you realize how ironic that sounds?  It tells me that you really
haven't done your homework yet.  Personally, I like crm114.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun 26 11:25:15 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:25:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261121220.27684@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Wayne Johnson wrote:

> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
>
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug


Possibly, but what does it mean for the list to be "free" -- that anyone 
can send messages or anyone can subscribe or any topic is acceptable?

tclug-list seems to be going pretty well for me in its current form, but I 
see your points and understand why you are frustrated.

Mike


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jun 26 11:46:36 2006
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:46:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF650@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF650@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261139280.13948@beer.tclug.org>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> No, not heard of it.  Thanks for the suggestion.  The wonderful thing 
> about Linux is you learn something new every day.
>
> I tend to stick with the Fedora distributed stuff when possible.  I just 
> don't have time (nor the hardware yet) to run everything.

  Actually, humorously enough, crm114 was submitted to Fedora Extras for 
review almost three months ago:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=187610

  I'd review it, but it has a dependency that's under review.  I know the 
reporter, though, so maybe I'll bug him a bit to see if I can't get that 
moving.
  See?  The power of open source in action.

      Jima


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jun 26 12:12:35 2006
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:12:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261121460.13948@beer.tclug.org>

  Oh, also...

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Is there a procedure for setting up this official poll?

  Yeah, we track down the official TCLUG Poll Admin and ask him to put it 
up on the site.  As Jay Kline stated:

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-April/000164.html

  Only s/months/years/ and s/I/everyone/.  He called it, though.
  CC'ing Brian on this, as he is (or was) the Poll Admin.

      Jima


From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 12:23:05 2006
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:23:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261121460.13948@beer.tclug.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261121460.13948@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <2c6699da0606261023k1f2d9481vedc55a794312e63b@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
>   Oh, also...
>   Yeah, we track down the official TCLUG Poll Admin and ask him to put it
> up on the site.

He's a slacker at times, but the new poll is up :-)

As for Jay's request, I seem to remember a poll suggestion form being
built shortly after I took over as pollster, but it seems to have
disappeared.  For the meantime, if you have a poll suggestion just
e-mail me directly.  If I don't reply, prod me with a sharp stick on
IRC.

-Brian


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 12:29:40 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:29:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF653@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Thanks.  Guess I'm outnumbered, it's 2 to 1 against right now...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Wall
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:23 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> On 6/26/06, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
> >   Oh, also...
> >   Yeah, we track down the official TCLUG Poll Admin and ask 
> him to put it
> > up on the site.
> 
> He's a slacker at times, but the new poll is up :-)
> 
> As for Jay's request, I seem to remember a poll suggestion form being
> built shortly after I took over as pollster, but it seems to have
> disappeared.  For the meantime, if you have a poll suggestion just
> e-mail me directly.  If I don't reply, prod me with a sharp stick on
> IRC.
> 
> -Brian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun 26 12:33:58 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:33:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <2c6699da0606261023k1f2d9481vedc55a794312e63b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261121460.13948@beer.tclug.org>
	<2c6699da0606261023k1f2d9481vedc55a794312e63b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261230060.7581@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Brian Wall wrote:

> On 6/26/06, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
>> Yeah, we track down the official TCLUG Poll Admin and ask him to put it
>> up on the site.
>
> He's a slacker at times, but the new poll is up :-)

Where is it?

Maybe once I see it, all of my questions will be answered.

Do we require a majority of voters or a majority of members?  I hope it's 
voters because I doubt that half of the 709 members (that's a lot!) will 
vote.

Mike


From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 12:38:10 2006
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:38:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261230060.7581@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261121460.13948@beer.tclug.org>
	<2c6699da0606261023k1f2d9481vedc55a794312e63b@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261230060.7581@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <2c6699da0606261038x136463f2i6ba5008c5d5aab70@mail.gmail.com>

Mike wrote:
> Where is it?

www.tclug.org, about half way down on the right (depending on screen res)

> Do we require a majority of voters or a majority of members?  I hope it's
> voters because I doubt that half of the 709 members (that's a lot!) will
> vote.

Of voters.  I would expect a large number of agnostics, and that's fine.


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 12:40:50 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:40:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF654@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

http://www.mn-linux.org/sympoll/index.php?dispid=123

It's also on the tclug.org home page.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:34 PM
> To: Brian Wall
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Brian Wall wrote:
> 
> > On 6/26/06, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
> >> Yeah, we track down the official TCLUG Poll Admin and ask 
> him to put it
> >> up on the site.
> >
> > He's a slacker at times, but the new poll is up :-)
> 
> Where is it?
> 
> Maybe once I see it, all of my questions will be answered.
> 
> Do we require a majority of voters or a majority of members?  
> I hope it's 
> voters because I doubt that half of the 709 members (that's a 
> lot!) will 
> vote.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jun 26 12:48:28 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:48:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> 
> Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?

Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as offensive.

Anyway, my response was terse and draconian. I should have taken more time
to explain the response.

I guess I haven't been to a tclug meeting lately. Anyone care to recall how
I introduced myself in meetings in the past? :-) 

You can vent all you want on the mailing list about yahoo accounts. You can
even fling mud with vague ethnic/religious insensitive comments. You can
even rally members around great FOSS community words like Free or are you
talking free? I have a pretty thick skin.

Bottom line, I speak for the majority of the tclug community when I
said "Denied". There was a very long debate on the block, a long running
poll was put in place, and the community decided to block yahoo. 

The potential exclusion of tclug members (current and future) was throughly
debated, alternatives ways of reading -and- posting suggested, which
ultimately lead to the block.

I hold the community line and enforce that decision.  Hate me for it if you
must, but it does related to how I introducted myself in past tclug
meetings. :-)

Since it took a majority of the community to vote the block in, I think it's
only fair that a poll and community vote be used to remove the block. The
logic seems, well logical, right?


Now, here are my salvo's back...

Let's talk about Free (speech) and free (beer, zero cost, none).

- - You are Free to setup another mailing list and offer free access to it. 
  What it will do is further fragment the community. Which is something the 
  oldest members of this community work very hard at preventing.
- - You are Free to branch the community. Competition is good. The strongest  
  branch will survive, normally swallowing the lesser branch. Since 1999(?)   
  tclug has been the strongest branch. I don't see this changing in the near 
  future.
- - Our community expects a spam-free mailing list, because of this 
  expectation some Freedoms have to be lost. Don't like it, but it's the 
  hard facts.
- - You are Free to post (rant, scream) all you want on the list. It's also a   
  Freedom the community grants. Heated words and firey discussions wake up   
  the old-guard (see, you got me to post!). BUT this is a public forum, it's 
  archived -and- available to the public. You post here, the message is "out 
  there" forever. I encourage everyone to think of this last point. The 
  community has also decided, that once posted, forever shall it remain in 
  the archive. I've held that line with countless people trying to remove 
  posts (OT: which does little, since google, wayback, etc crawls us 
  nightly). With employers adding google/myspace/'net searches to their 
  employment checks won't it be terrible to not get into a college because 
  of your stupid postings at MySpace when you where 15? Or insensitive 
  comments to a mailing list? Think about it!
- - Since there are countless ways to read and post to this group without 
  having using yahoo I think you'll not find much support for your rant. 
  This community and FOSS in general reward people for flexible, innovative  
  ideas. Be flexible try one of the other access methods.

Finally, I'll add, gmane will let your Reply-To: be whatever email address
you want, so you can still have your tclug posting be sent to your yahoo
address. 

If you wish to further discuss this issue, please send me private email,
I'll take some time away from reading the cliff notes on Mein Kampf to
answer.

- --  
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEoB3wfPGnCSzBsogRAsVrAJ4sWmzVQJERThkze+84zbSrsEXGcACePlw4
fLz5XgFFALg322mltfoYtME=
=7kr7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 12:48:19 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:48:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF656@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

My only concern is that a majority of voters will think it's a vote to keep out spam, which it is not.  

There is no valid reason anymore to ban yahoo since it has it's own anti-spam processes.  I belong to about 20 different mailing lists, none ban yahoo id's and none have problems with spam.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Wall
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:38 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> Mike wrote:
> > Where is it?
> 
> www.tclug.org, about half way down on the right (depending on 
> screen res)
> 
> > Do we require a majority of voters or a majority of 
> members?  I hope it's
> > voters because I doubt that half of the 709 members (that's 
> a lot!) will
> > vote.
> 
> Of voters.  I would expect a large number of agnostics, and 
> that's fine.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 13:12:00 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:12:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

As I explained in the various other notes I've sent (including the original one I posted), I have tried most (if not all) the suggestions you gave me.  I still having some people sending me mail on my work account, and others sending me mail on my yahoo account, and them me having to send mail between accounts in order to respond to each other.  

As far as it being an old issue, your right.  I believe the problem for which the issue was designed to fix has all but been eliminated.  Flexibility also includes revisiting decisions when the situation dictates.

And please believe me, this was never meant as a personal attack.  I manage several mailing lists myself and I understand that it's a no win situation.  It was a knee jerk reaction to what I perceived to be an injustice.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:48 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> > Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
> > 
> > Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with 
> fewer Nazis?
> 
> Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as offensive.
> 
> Anyway, my response was terse and draconian. I should have 
> taken more time
> to explain the response.
> 
> I guess I haven't been to a tclug meeting lately. Anyone care 
> to recall how
> I introduced myself in meetings in the past? :-) 
> 
> You can vent all you want on the mailing list about yahoo 
> accounts. You can
> even fling mud with vague ethnic/religious insensitive 
> comments. You can
> even rally members around great FOSS community words like 
> Free or are you
> talking free? I have a pretty thick skin.
> 
> Bottom line, I speak for the majority of the tclug community when I
> said "Denied". There was a very long debate on the block, a 
> long running
> poll was put in place, and the community decided to block yahoo. 
> 
> The potential exclusion of tclug members (current and future) 
> was throughly
> debated, alternatives ways of reading -and- posting suggested, which
> ultimately lead to the block.
> 
> I hold the community line and enforce that decision.  Hate me 
> for it if you
> must, but it does related to how I introducted myself in past tclug
> meetings. :-)
> 
> Since it took a majority of the community to vote the block 
> in, I think it's
> only fair that a poll and community vote be used to remove 
> the block. The
> logic seems, well logical, right?
> 
> 
> Now, here are my salvo's back...
> 
> Let's talk about Free (speech) and free (beer, zero cost, none).
> 
> - - You are Free to setup another mailing list and offer free 
> access to it. 
>   What it will do is further fragment the community. Which is 
> something the 
>   oldest members of this community work very hard at preventing.
> - - You are Free to branch the community. Competition is 
> good. The strongest  
>   branch will survive, normally swallowing the lesser branch. 
> Since 1999(?)   
>   tclug has been the strongest branch. I don't see this 
> changing in the near 
>   future.
> - - Our community expects a spam-free mailing list, because of this 
>   expectation some Freedoms have to be lost. Don't like it, 
> but it's the 
>   hard facts.
> - - You are Free to post (rant, scream) all you want on the 
> list. It's also a   
>   Freedom the community grants. Heated words and firey 
> discussions wake up   
>   the old-guard (see, you got me to post!). BUT this is a 
> public forum, it's 
>   archived -and- available to the public. You post here, the 
> message is "out 
>   there" forever. I encourage everyone to think of this last 
> point. The 
>   community has also decided, that once posted, forever shall 
> it remain in 
>   the archive. I've held that line with countless people 
> trying to remove 
>   posts (OT: which does little, since google, wayback, etc crawls us 
>   nightly). With employers adding google/myspace/'net 
> searches to their 
>   employment checks won't it be terrible to not get into a 
> college because 
>   of your stupid postings at MySpace when you where 15? Or 
> insensitive 
>   comments to a mailing list? Think about it!
> - - Since there are countless ways to read and post to this 
> group without 
>   having using yahoo I think you'll not find much support for 
> your rant. 
>   This community and FOSS in general reward people for 
> flexible, innovative  
>   ideas. Be flexible try one of the other access methods.
> 
> Finally, I'll add, gmane will let your Reply-To: be whatever 
> email address
> you want, so you can still have your tclug posting be sent to 
> your yahoo
> address. 
> 
> If you wish to further discuss this issue, please send me 
> private email,
> I'll take some time away from reading the cliff notes on Mein Kampf to
> answer.
> 
> - --  
> Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFEoB3wfPGnCSzBsogRAsVrAJ4sWmzVQJERThkze+84zbSrsEXGcACePlw4
> fLz5XgFFALg322mltfoYtME=
> =7kr7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jun 26 13:12:41 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:12:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org>

> Yes, Bob offered alternatives, most of which I had already said were
> difficult to deal with.

Too difficult to point a web browser at a url?

nntp access
nntp://news.gmane.org

RSS access
http://rss.gmane.org/messages/excerpts/gmane.user-groups.linux.tclug

http access
http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug

If you meant to say something like, the alternatives are not yahoo, then
I'll agree with you. But to difficult?


It has been my experience that this mailing list is very supportive of
people unable to help themselves. Pointing out locations of information,
HOWTOs, FAQs, even mini-mentoring sessions via email and/or irc.

It was also been my experience that this same mailing lists is very
intolerant of individuals unwilling to help themselves.

If yahoo is the only solution that will work for you, run the poll, follow
the due process, and ultimately accept what the community decides. 

AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since it's easy to forge
multiple votes.
-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Mon Jun 26 13:22:44 2006
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:22:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1151346164.21153.264695688@webmail.messagingengine.com>


[Quote]
 Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as offensive.
[End Quote]

Offensive, why? Because it's demonizing a group of people who persecuted
another group of people. If it's an offense at anyone, it's an offense
to and a characterisation of Nazis.

[Quote]
 You can even fling mud with vague ethnic/religious insensitive
 comments.
[End Quote]

Naziism was a socio-political ideology. Not an ethnic/religious one
unless you're going to label the whole German nation.
I didn't see any reference to Judaism so let's not bring that into the
topic unless you do want to bring in ethnic/religious sensitivities.

See what I'm getting at here?
Let's not be so quick to jump on the pc bandwagon. It often works as a
way to take focus away from the issues that are at the heart of the
subject matter.


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jun 26 12:14:46 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:14:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261212570.30729@Rooster>

> Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as offensive.

Not to overstep Goodwin's Law, but /EVERYONE/ should be offended by being 
compared to a nazi, regardless of race, religion or creed.


-Yaron

--


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jun 26 13:22:23 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:22:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261112390.27684@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 11:19 AM
> To: Bob Tanner
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:
>
> > Wayne Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> Be it resolved:
> >> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
> >
> > Denied.
>
> No discussion, no explanation?  That's how I'm reading it.
>

Seems especially "not couthy" to block a whole domain and not just
address the problem.  Shouldn't the same rule should apply to any such
domain like the hotmail, juno, gmail, and others?  I get some crap from
all those, but not enough to consider blocking any whole domain.  What
problem is it that Linux can't solve?

Chuck



From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jun 26 13:23:56 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:23:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <e7p8nt$pj1$1@sea.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Wayne Johnson wrote:

> As I explained in the various other notes I've sent (including the
> original one I posted), I have tried most (if not all) the suggestions you
> gave me. ?I still having some people sending me mail on my work account,
> and others sending me mail on my yahoo account, and them me having to send
> mail between accounts in order to respond to each other.

Just make sure you sign up to gmane with your yahoo account and make sure
your munge your Reply-To: to your yahoo account.

- -- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jun 26 13:28:20 2006
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:28:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261327070.13948@beer.tclug.org>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:
> If you wish to further discuss this issue, please send me private email,
> I'll take some time away from reading the cliff notes on Mein Kampf to
> answer.

  Wow, not just a nazi, but a lazy nazi!

      Jima


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 13:29:27 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:29:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65B@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

When you are dealing with forwarding and replying to messages from different mailing lists, yes.  I guess you have to live with it to understand.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 1:13 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> > Yes, Bob offered alternatives, most of which I had already said were
> > difficult to deal with.
> 
> Too difficult to point a web browser at a url?
> 
> nntp access
> nntp://news.gmane.org
> 
> RSS access
> http://rss.gmane.org/messages/excerpts/gmane.user-groups.linux.tclug
> 
> http access
> http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
> 
> If you meant to say something like, the alternatives are not 
> yahoo, then
> I'll agree with you. But to difficult?
> 
> 
> It has been my experience that this mailing list is very supportive of
> people unable to help themselves. Pointing out locations of 
> information,
> HOWTOs, FAQs, even mini-mentoring sessions via email and/or irc.
> 
> It was also been my experience that this same mailing lists is very
> intolerant of individuals unwilling to help themselves.
> 
> If yahoo is the only solution that will work for you, run the 
> poll, follow
> the due process, and ultimately accept what the community decides. 
> 
> AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since it's 
> easy to forge
> multiple votes.
> -- 
> Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Mon Jun 26 13:34:36 2006
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:34:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261212570.30729@Rooster>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261212570.30729@Rooster>
Message-ID: <200606261334.36426.thecubic@thecubic.net>

On Monday 26 June 2006 12:14, Yaron wrote:
> > Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as offensive.
>
> Not to overstep Goodwin's Law, but /EVERYONE/ should be offended by being
> compared to a nazi, regardless of race, religion or creed.

You're forgetting neo-Nazis - it's flattery to them.

Dave



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jun 26 12:38:53 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:38:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <200606261334.36426.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261212570.30729@Rooster>
	<200606261334.36426.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261238240.30729@Rooster>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Dave Carlson wrote:

> You're forgetting neo-Nazis - it's flattery to them.

Yeah, but they don't count as people.


-Yaron

--


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 13:44:22 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:44:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65C@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Agreed.  Like I said, I shouldn't have used those words.  

I don't get upset often, but when I do, LOOK OUT!

Read some of Bodie Thoene's books on the holocaust and you will have a whole new perspective on WWII.  And it wasn't just the Nazis.  

BTW, I had absolutly no intention of this having a religious overtone.  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 12:15 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> > Wow! If I were Jewish that last statement might be seen as 
> offensive.
> 
> Not to overstep Goodwin's Law, but /EVERYONE/ should be 
> offended by being 
> compared to a nazi, regardless of race, religion or creed.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 13:51:28 2006
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:51:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65C@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65C@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <2c6699da0606261151n61565ad8m7787b870a8a5e01@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Wayne Johnson <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com> wrote:

> Read some of Bodie Thoene's books on the holocaust and you will have a whole new perspective on WWII.  And it wasn't just the Nazis.

I wish to inflcit Godwin's law.  The poll is up, I request this thread dead.

-Brian


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Mon Jun 26 13:52:33 2006
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:52:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261238240.30729@Rooster>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<200606261334.36426.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261238240.30729@Rooster>
Message-ID: <200606261352.34164.thecubic@thecubic.net>

On Monday 26 June 2006 12:38, Yaron wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Dave Carlson wrote:
> > You're forgetting neo-Nazis - it's flattery to them.
>
> Yeah, but they don't count as people.

There's some irony for you!

Dave


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 14:05:50 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:05:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com>

I don't understand the logic behind blocking the domain either.  I 
wasn't here for this history, so I don't know the problems that the 
yahoo domain may have caused in the past - but I really don't understand 
how blocking the yahoo domain helps reduce spam.

This message is the only one I have seen in the thread that seems to 
give any technical info as to how this blocking helps reduce spam...

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-June/027635.html

And even that doesn't really make it clear to me how bots are sending 
mail to a members only list through yahoo accounts.

Since this is members only - are you saying, that the bots (which 
apparently only use yahoo accounts) are capable of signing up to the 
list, and then sending spam from their valid, registered accounts?

If the bots are this smart, why don't they use other addresses beside yahoo?

Maybe the answers are already obvious to the pro sys admins on the list.

I think this question needs more real facts than poll results.  Why not 
do a 1 month (or less, if a spam problem develops) test run to see if 
allowing yahoo accounts is still a real problem.  Then take a poll - 
with real facts backing up the choices of the poll.

Arbitrary decisions like this seem rather draconian when people (like 
me) don't know the history or the reasoning behind the decisions that 
were made years ago.


Dan


-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Mon Jun 26 14:11:51 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:11:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>

Bob Tanner wrote:
> Now, here are my salvo's back...
> 
> Let's talk about Free (speech) and free (beer, zero cost, none).
> 
> - - You are Free to setup another mailing list and offer free access to it. 
>   What it will do is further fragment the community. Which is something the 
>   oldest members of this community work very hard at preventing.

I wholeheartedly agree. Fragmentation of the community will only hinder 
the community.


> - - You are Free to branch the community. Competition is good. The strongest  
>   branch will survive, normally swallowing the lesser branch. Since 1999(?)   
>   tclug has been the strongest branch. I don't see this changing in the near 
>   future.
> - - Our community expects a spam-free mailing list, because of this 
>   expectation some Freedoms have to be lost. Don't like it, but it's the 
>   hard facts.
> - - You are Free to post (rant, scream) all you want on the list. It's also a   
>   Freedom the community grants. Heated words and firey discussions wake up   
>   the old-guard (see, you got me to post!). BUT this is a public forum, it's 
>   archived -and- available to the public. You post here, the message is "out 
>   there" forever. I encourage everyone to think of this last point. The 
>   community has also decided, that once posted, forever shall it remain in 
>   the archive. I've held that line with countless people trying to remove 
>   posts (OT: which does little, since google, wayback, etc crawls us 
>   nightly). With employers adding google/myspace/'net searches to their 
>   employment checks won't it be terrible to not get into a college because 
>   of your stupid postings at MySpace when you where 15? Or insensitive 
>   comments to a mailing list? Think about it!
> - - Since there are countless ways to read and post to this group without 
>   having using yahoo I think you'll not find much support for your rant. 
>   This community and FOSS in general reward people for flexible, innovative  
>   ideas. Be flexible try one of the other access methods.
> 
> Finally, I'll add, gmane will let your Reply-To: be whatever email address
> you want, so you can still have your tclug posting be sent to your yahoo
> address. 
> 
> If you wish to further discuss this issue, please send me private email,
> I'll take some time away from reading the cliff notes on Mein Kampf to
> answer.

I think that Bob pretty much proves his point(s) and rather well I might 
add. I am going to vote in the poll, as soon as I send this off.

Let's keep it all on one list, ok? Everyone pretty much agrees I think, 
there really is no reason for this. It will HARM the community.

Wayne, I ask you to reconsider, and I think everybody will be able to 
come out of this happy. (and besides, if Jima get's that package in 
fedora extra for you, it'll be that much easier :] )

Anyway, I don't know I just had to write something on this thread as I 
have absolutely great memories of the first tclug meeting (at the mall 
of america, no less...) where ben kochie, a few others and I scrawled 
email addresses on napkins in the food court. This must have been early 
98 or so maybe late 97, who cares anyway the point is... that day I had 
NO IDEA how great tclug would become. I mean, Bob & team seem to do an 
incredible job making the list do it's thing. And I find it's always 
great to have a linux list that's local, for fun stuff that appeals to 
all of us, some in different ways, beer meetings, hardware exchange, 
hardware sale, hardware recommendations, and of course the non stop 
linux questions... let's make this list the best it can be.

Nick Thompson

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun 26 14:14:01 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:14:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261410020.27341@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:

> AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since it's easy to 
> forge multiple votes.

It would have been nice to have a discussion beforehand.  In that 
discussion, if we had had it, someone could have explained why we would 
want to deny access to email accounts from yahoo.com.  They would explain 
why a simple subscriber-only posting system is insufficient.  Maybe they 
would tell us when the voting will start and when it will end.

Mike


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 14:27:18 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:27:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF65D@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

I think part of it, is that in older versions of mailman, mail from non-members required a moderator to accept or reject the messages.  Up till a recent upgrade, I was getting hundreds of these a week and having to click on the reject button for each on some of my lists.  The current mailman software allows for non-member messages to just be rejected without intervention.

I don't blame Bob for wanting to limit the spam in those days.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 2:06 PM
> To: cncole at earthlink.net
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> I don't understand the logic behind blocking the domain either.  I 
> wasn't here for this history, so I don't know the problems that the 
> yahoo domain may have caused in the past - but I really don't 
> understand 
> how blocking the yahoo domain helps reduce spam.
> 
> This message is the only one I have seen in the thread that seems to 
> give any technical info as to how this blocking helps reduce spam...
> 
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-June/02
7635.html

And even that doesn't really make it clear to me how bots are sending 
mail to a members only list through yahoo accounts.

Since this is members only - are you saying, that the bots (which 
apparently only use yahoo accounts) are capable of signing up to the 
list, and then sending spam from their valid, registered accounts?

If the bots are this smart, why don't they use other addresses beside yahoo?

Maybe the answers are already obvious to the pro sys admins on the list.

I think this question needs more real facts than poll results.  Why not 
do a 1 month (or less, if a spam problem develops) test run to see if 
allowing yahoo accounts is still a real problem.  Then take a poll - 
with real facts backing up the choices of the poll.

Arbitrary decisions like this seem rather draconian when people (like 
me) don't know the history or the reasoning behind the decisions that 
were made years ago.


Dan


-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tshilson at mmm.com  Mon Jun 26 15:07:35 2006
From: tshilson at mmm.com (tshilson at mmm.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:07:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <OF3B39021C.35FCC07C-ON86257199.006E7B98-86257199.006E8EFE@mmm.com>

Would it be possible to move this discussion off this list? 
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun 26 15:21:00 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:21:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <OF3B39021C.35FCC07C-ON86257199.006E7B98-86257199.006E8EFE@mmm.com>
References: <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>
	<OF3B39021C.35FCC07C-ON86257199.006E7B98-86257199.006E8EFE@mmm.com>
Message-ID: <20060626202100.GG29271@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 03:07:35PM -0500, tshilson at mmm.com wrote:
> Would it be possible to move this discussion off this list? 

Why? Is it blocking your view?

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jun 26 15:25:22 2006
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:25:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] crm114,
 TCLUG's first meeting (was: a subject we might as well drop)
In-Reply-To: <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org> <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261512100.13948@beer.tclug.org>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, nick thompson wrote:
> Wayne, I ask you to reconsider, and I think everybody will be able to
> come out of this happy. (and besides, if Jima get's that package in
> fedora extra for you, it'll be that much easier :] )

  From what I was told by the reporter, the main issue ATM is some problem 
with tre (a BuildReq for crm114) crashing under x86_64.  As I don't have 
any x86_64 machines, I'm going to be limited help there, but I'm stepping 
up to clear crm114 as quickly as I can once that's resolved.  (Because 
after all, more useful software being available to the average user is 
generally a good thing.)

> Anyway, I don't know I just had to write something on this thread as I
> have absolutely great memories of the first tclug meeting (at the mall
> of america, no less...) where ben kochie, a few others and I scrawled
> email addresses on napkins in the food court. This must have been early
> 98 or so maybe late 97, who cares anyway the point is... that day I had
> NO IDEA how great tclug would become. I mean, Bob & team seem to do an
> incredible job making the list do it's thing. And I find it's always
> great to have a linux list that's local, for fun stuff that appeals to
> all of us, some in different ways, beer meetings, hardware exchange,
> hardware sale, hardware recommendations, and of course the non stop
> linux questions... let's make this list the best it can be.

  According to the research I did while looking for a definitive founding 
date for the Linux Counter's LUG listing 
(http://lugww.counter.li.org/groups.cms?&cc=US&rc=MN), the date of that 
first meeting was 1998-02-07.  I'm not off-hand finding my source on that, 
but I do recall seeing an email that cited that specific date (else I 
would have been more vague).  I wasn't there, but I'm a bit of a 
historian.

      Jima


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jun 26 15:34:58 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:34:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20060626203458.GH29271@iucha.net>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 01:12:41PM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote:
> AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since it's easy to forge
> multiple votes.

Is there a HOWTO on that? I don't like the way the pole is leaning ATM...

Do we allow voting from yahoo accounts? Do we need to have a poll
about that first?

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jun 26 15:41:35 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:41:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dan Armbrust wrote:

> I think this question needs more real facts than poll results. ?Why not
> do a 1 month (or less, if a spam problem develops) test run to see if
> allowing yahoo accounts is still a real problem. ?Then take a poll -
> with real facts backing up the choices of the poll.

In the "old days" yahoo didn't do any account verification. So, it was
simple for bots to sign-up and spam.

Yes, things are better today. Yes, the block is probably not needed. But the
issue at hand is -not- technical, it's political (community?). Block went
in on a vote, block should go out on a vote. 

> Arbitrary decisions like this seem rather draconian when people (like 
> me) don't know the history or the reasoning behind the decisions that 
> were made years ago.

Decision was anything but arbitrary. 

First a flame. :-) IF everyone would read postings via linux MUA (probably
win32 tbird now too) this would -not- have been such a big issue. Maybe
even more generic, if people would read email on non-window boxes and
non-outlook MUAs. This issue would not have surfaced.

Here is the history. Step into my retro-machine. Please step keep your hands
and feet inside at all time. Remain seated for the duration of the ride
until it comes to a complete stop. 

Spambot forged or compromised someones yahoo account. Sends a post to
tclug-list. The payload of the post was malware. Don't remember which, but
the type that does:

for poor_sap in outlook.addressbook; do
    outlook.send($poor_sap)
done

At first most of the old-guard chuckled, "Stupid outlook!", even changed the
name to "Lookout!". At the time trusty elm or this niffty new(!) program
mutt scoffed at this malware.

The chuckled turned into groans quickly. Tclug-list being a "trusted" email
source, phished (term didn't even exist at this time!) people into opening
the email. Pandemic! Now multiple -legit- tclug addresses are posting to
the list (and elsewhere) with malware.

Surprise! Shock! Anger!! Many people at this time (still?) read tclug-list
via outlook (look to the archives for the thread on why people are still
reading tclug via outlook! :-) ) 

Lots of anger directed at myself, TCLUG, the world about how TCLUG infected
their computer. We have a PR nightmare on our hands. Terrible timing since
Linux is just getting recognized as a legit win32 replacement on the
server. Regardless if the problem is a win32 issue, not a linux issue. The
messenger (really!, mailman/linux) gets shot here.

Have to remember this is pretty new to win32 people at this time and tools
and behaviors of the past made for this malware to spread easily. I
honestly think most people didn't have a virus scanner on their win32 box.


I brought the mailing list down to prevent further infections. Cleaned out
the queues of all malware. Changed clamav and spamassassin (SA) to scan all
messages regardless (was limiting to < 100K, message in question was 102K).

It was all too late, tclug-list is in some spammer database. Clamav prevents
the really malicious stuff, but the "normal" spam is still making it
through SA.

Call for action. Poll. Discussion. Result: block yahoo. Long threads on
alternatives to reading the list, etc, most devolved into outlook bad,
windows bad, this is twin cities LINUX users group.

In the end, like most flamefests, the actually issue was drowned about by
the standard FOSS jihads: distro, MUA, OS, until almost a decade later.

Please exit to the left side of the ride. Check your seating area for any
valuables as you leave. Thank you for riding retro-machine.

There was technical merit, there was community incentive. Are both valid
today? Probably not, but as I stated above. It's not a technical issue.

All making a little more sense now?

- -- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEoEZ/fPGnCSzBsogRAl7lAJ4xWaqxs4Jjnx8GhtqHaMpn6XVKqACfa/YJ
LYxfqZ2vA7KcXf1b+iX+IDU=
=awDa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jun 26 15:49:34 2006
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:49:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org> <20060626203458.GH29271@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <e7ph8v$qb9$1@sea.gmane.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Florin Iucha wrote:

>> AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since it's easy to
>> forge multiple votes.
> 
> Is there a HOWTO on that? I don't like the way the pole is leaning ATM...
> 

My guess, most of the polls are forged. I've never seen a poll move this
fast -ever-. :-)

Pollmaster can verify IPs and then we can see just how sneaky everyone can
really be. Maybe even embarrass a few people in the process :-P, since I'm
seeing multiple votes (don't know which way) from the same IP address in
the apache logs.


- -- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEoEhefPGnCSzBsogRAr61AJ9tlLsQ5qUghaZoSkHWKRLjX90MXACgiV5e
KaJAFr9oI6g/MAQsij5ewIM=
=yhiD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 16:02:58 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:02:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF665@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Not from me...  I'm using multiple IP addresses 8{)>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 3:50 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Florin Iucha wrote:
> 
> >> AND yes, there will be discussion after the poll, since 
> it's easy to
> >> forge multiple votes.
> > 
> > Is there a HOWTO on that? I don't like the way the pole is 
> leaning ATM...
> > 
> 
> My guess, most of the polls are forged. I've never seen a 
> poll move this
> fast -ever-. :-)
> 
> Pollmaster can verify IPs and then we can see just how sneaky 
> everyone can
> really be. Maybe even embarrass a few people in the process 
> :-P, since I'm
> seeing multiple votes (don't know which way) from the same IP 
> address in
> the apache logs.
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
> 
> iD8DBQFEoEhefPGnCSzBsogRAr61AJ9tlLsQ5qUghaZoSkHWKRLjX90MXACgiV5e
> KaJAFr9oI6g/MAQsij5ewIM=
> =yhiD
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jun 26 14:59:03 2006
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:59:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7ph8v$qb9$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF646@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p82p$m7p$1@sea.gmane.org> <20060626203458.GH29271@iucha.net>
	<e7ph8v$qb9$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606261457120.30729@Rooster>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:

> My guess, most of the polls are forged. I've never seen a poll move this
> fast -ever-. :-)


Yeah, and I haven't even voted yet! I'm saving my vote till the end to see 
if anyone wants to pay me off to vote a certain way.


-Yaron

--


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 16:07:57 2006
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:07:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Poll Software
Message-ID: <ace41e70606261407v12448822ud19413db16f24a56@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com> wrote:
> My guess, most of the polls are forged. I've never seen a poll move this
> fast -ever-. :-)
>
> Pollmaster can verify IPs and then we can see just how sneaky everyone can
> really be. Maybe even embarrass a few people in the process :-P, since I'm
> seeing multiple votes (don't know which way) from the same IP address in
> the apache logs.
>

How hard does the poll software check for this sort of stuff?  I know
I, for one, voted and periodicly hit "reload" to see the results.  I
hope thats not skewing the voting.

Jay


-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 16:08:19 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:08:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF666@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Vote early, vote often...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 2:59 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
> 
> 
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:
> 
> > My guess, most of the polls are forged. I've never seen a 
> poll move this
> > fast -ever-. :-)
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I haven't even voted yet! I'm saving my vote till 
> the end to see 
> if anyone wants to pay me off to vote a certain way.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From rwh at visi.com  Mon Jun 26 16:13:55 2006
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:13:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] USB/SCSI Device Mappings
In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30606231327g6e17364fse7c036bf45d266f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd30606231327g6e17364fse7c036bf45d266f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A04E13.4040706@visi.com>

I have a set of external USB disks that contain encrypted partitions and
I'm trying to set up a service script to mount those disks with the
appropriate passwords in a way that will be reasonably robust across
reboots, etc.

I've gotten to the point where I could parse the information in
/proc/scsi/scsi to map the scsi device to the device assignment, grep
through the system log to find the device that was assigned, and use
that to grab the appropriate password and mount point for the volume.

I'm wondering if I'm missing something and where there is a table
somewhere in /proc, or an existing utility that can dump this information?

Thanks.

--rick


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jun 26 16:18:58 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:18:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:

> In the "old days" yahoo didn't do any account verification. So, it 
> wassimple for bots to sign-up and spam.
> Yes, things are better today. Yes, the block is probably not needed. But 
> theissue at hand is -not- technical, it's political (community?). Block 
> wentin on a vote, block should go out on a vote.

Too bad we didn't have a brief explanation of your ideas about the issues 
before the vote.  You sent one word: "denied."  Then when the guy you 
treated so rudely responded in kind, he was attacked instead of you.

I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all the 
exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look any more 
productive than some of the other messages you've sent today.

Mike


From sac at cheesecake.org  Mon Jun 26 16:45:38 2006
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:45:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] USB/SCSI Device Mappings
In-Reply-To: <44A04E13.4040706@visi.com>
References: <579c6fd30606231327g6e17364fse7c036bf45d266f@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A04E13.4040706@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20060626214538.GA31208@cheesecake.org>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 at 16.13.55 -0500, rwh wrote:
> I have a set of external USB disks that contain encrypted partitions and
> I'm trying to set up a service script to mount those disks with the
> appropriate passwords in a way that will be reasonably robust across
> reboots, etc.
> 
> I've gotten to the point where I could parse the information in
> /proc/scsi/scsi to map the scsi device to the device assignment, grep
> through the system log to find the device that was assigned, and use
> that to grab the appropriate password and mount point for the volume.
> 
> I'm wondering if I'm missing something and where there is a table
> somewhere in /proc, or an existing utility that can dump this information?

Maybe this is naive, but why not mount by volume label or UUID or use
LVM and make a volume group on the USB device and mount the LV contained
therein?

I guess if you have to put the device name in magic incantations before
you mount it to set up your crypto gears, LABEL= or UUID= won't work,
but LVM should still work in that case, although you might need to do
another pvscan or vgscan if the device isn't connected at boot.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Mon Jun 26 17:08:12 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:08:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] crm114, TCLUG's first meeting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261512100.13948@beer.tclug.org>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF63E@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<e7p6lg$hg3$1@sea.gmane.org> <44A03177.9060107@mchsi.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261512100.13948@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <44A05ACB.5060306@mchsi.com>

Jima wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, nick thompson wrote:
>> Wayne, I ask you to reconsider, and I think everybody will be able to
>> come out of this happy. (and besides, if Jima get's that package in
>> fedora extra for you, it'll be that much easier :] )
> 
>  From what I was told by the reporter, the main issue ATM is some 
> problem with tre (a BuildReq for crm114) crashing under x86_64.  As I 
> don't have any x86_64 machines, I'm going to be limited help there, but 
> I'm stepping up to clear crm114 as quickly as I can once that's 
> resolved.  (Because after all, more useful software being available to 
> the average user is generally a good thing.)
> 
>> Anyway, I don't know I just had to write something on this thread as I
>> have absolutely great memories of the first tclug meeting (at the mall
>> of america, no less...) where ben kochie, a few others and I scrawled
>> email addresses on napkins in the food court. This must have been early
>> 98 or so maybe late 97, who cares anyway the point is... that day I had
>> NO IDEA how great tclug would become. I mean, Bob & team seem to do an
>> incredible job making the list do it's thing. And I find it's always
>> great to have a linux list that's local, for fun stuff that appeals to
>> all of us, some in different ways, beer meetings, hardware exchange,
>> hardware sale, hardware recommendations, and of course the non stop
>> linux questions... let's make this list the best it can be.
> 
>  According to the research I did while looking for a definitive founding 
> date for the Linux Counter's LUG listing 
> (http://lugww.counter.li.org/groups.cms?&cc=US&rc=MN), the date of that 
> first meeting was 1998-02-07.  I'm not off-hand finding my source on 
> that, but I do recall seeing an email that cited that specific date 
> (else I would have been more vague).  I wasn't there, but I'm a bit of a 
> historian.
> 
>      Jima
> 
Jima,
  Oh thank you so much!!! you just solved a mystery that has been 
bothering me for years!! i lost my email for 97 & 98 ( don't ask, 
lessons learned.. ;p) and i have wondered what the date of that food 
court meeting was for a while now. Thanks! : )

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Mon Jun 26 17:13:01 2006
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:13:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <s4a015ad.051@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

Hehe -- it's nice to know we don't have a shortage of
rude emailers on the list. :-)

>>> Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> 06/26/06 4:18 PM >>>
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:

> In the "old days" yahoo didn't do any account verification. So, it 
> wassimple for bots to sign-up and spam.
> Yes, things are better today. Yes, the block is probably not needed.
But 
> theissue at hand is -not- technical, it's political (community?).
Block 
> wentin on a vote, block should go out on a vote.

Too bad we didn't have a brief explanation of your ideas about the
issues 
before the vote.  You sent one word: "denied."  Then when the guy you 
treated so rudely responded in kind, he was attacked instead of you.

I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all the

exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look any more

productive than some of the other messages you've sent today.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 





From timo at bolverk.net  Mon Jun 26 18:33:52 2006
From: timo at bolverk.net (Timo)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:33:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF642@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <44A06EE0.3050803@bolverk.net>

Wayne Johnson wrote:
> [Sorry, should have changed the subject.]
>
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
>   

no thanks...this one is pretty damned nice

.

> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Wayne Johnson
>> Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:28 AM
>> To: tanner at real-time.com; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>>
>>
>> Fine.  Take your mailing list and shove it.
>>
>> Anyone want to join me in another mailing list.  One with fewer Nazis?
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:12 AM
>>> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>>>
>>>
>>> Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Be it resolved:
>>>> I request reconsideration of the ban on yahoo e-mail addresses.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> Denied.
>>>
>>> Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to 
>>> vote for the
>>> removal of the yahoo ban.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of other email services, thread follow-ups 
>>> lists them all,
>>> gmail is my favorite.
>>>
>>> Don't like gmail?
>>>
>>> Can read this group in many other was:
>>>
>>>         http://dir.gmane.org/
>>>
>>> I prefer nntp, since it seems silly to waste my disk space 
>>> when someone else
>>> is willing to waste their disk space :-)
>>>
>>>         http://dir.gmane.org/search.php?match=tclug
>>>
>>> You can even post via gmane.
>>>
>>>         http://gmane.org/post.php
>>> -- 
>>> Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
>>> http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
>>> Key fingerprint >>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 19:06:31 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:06:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF668@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

That's the problem.  Bob does not want the restrictions either, but is simply following the policy this group set up long ago when the problem actually existed.  


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Nate Straz
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 9:45 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Totally free TCLUG mailing list


On Mon, Jun 26, 2006 at 08:57:22AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Anyone want to join me on a totally free tclug mailing list?
> 
> http://www.dccmn.com/mailman/listinfo/free-tclug

Nope.  This list has served me just fine for the past six years.  I
trust Mr. Tanner's expertise in running this list.

Nate

P.S. I'm surprised you didn't make the new list in Yahoo Groups.  *ducks*

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 19:14:21 2006
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:14:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] sound problems
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>

a few days ago, sound stopped working on my laptop.  I'm starting to
suspect that it's a hardware problem, but since I'm not an expert when
it comes to hardware, I'm not sure how to go about proving whether
it's a software or hardware issue.  Can anybody give me any pointers
on where to start looking?  If it were a desktop, I'd just try
swapping in a new sound card, but I'm not sure what to do on a laptop.

The basic symptom is that the music player acts like it's playing
stuff, but no sound comes out, either from the built-in speakers or
the headphone jack.

Does anybody know of a definitive way to prove whether it's a hardware
or software issue?  By the way, I'm running Ubuntu Dapper on a HP
zv6000 series laptop.

Thanks,
Jonathon


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 19:17:35 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:17:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF669@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Can you please give me a hint on how to set up gmane to send me messages.  It supports web, nntp and rss interfaces, but I see no e-mail interface.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Tanner
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 1:24 PM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Wayne Johnson wrote:

> As I explained in the various other notes I've sent (including the
> original one I posted), I have tried most (if not all) the suggestions you
> gave me. ?I still having some people sending me mail on my work account,
> and others sending me mail on my yahoo account, and them me having to send
> mail between accounts in order to respond to each other.

Just make sure you sign up to gmane with your yahoo account and make sure
your munge your Reply-To: to your yahoo account.

- -- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFEoCY8fPGnCSzBsogRAvauAJ9ylSLCWVBgV/0owfz65/7gKlwsZgCePnVJ
+c4fPVWtmrdDWyN7r9x+A04=
=0oIm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From bhartm at visi.com  Mon Jun 26 19:47:29 2006
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:47:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] sound problems
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A08021.2050003@visi.com>


Quick and dirty, worth a try.
Try this.  Actually I have to do it every time I boot lately because i 
haven't gone into really fixing the underlying whatever. 

alsaconf

just keep hitting enter and try again.  if it works, then, well,,




Jonathon Jongsma wrote:

>a few days ago, sound stopped working on my laptop.  I'm starting to
>suspect that it's a hardware problem, but since I'm not an expert when
>it comes to hardware, I'm not sure how to go about proving whether
>it's a software or hardware issue.  Can anybody give me any pointers
>on where to start looking?  If it were a desktop, I'd just try
>swapping in a new sound card, but I'm not sure what to do on a laptop.
>
>The basic symptom is that the music player acts like it's playing
>stuff, but no sound comes out, either from the built-in speakers or
>the headphone jack.
>
>Does anybody know of a definitive way to prove whether it's a hardware
>or software issue?  By the way, I'm running Ubuntu Dapper on a HP
>zv6000 series laptop.
>
>Thanks,
>Jonathon
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>  
>


From jkjones at tcq.net  Mon Jun 26 19:53:43 2006
From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:53:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] sound problems
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A08197.6060400@tcq.net>

Jonathon Jongsma wrote:

>a few days ago, sound stopped working on my laptop.  I'm starting to
>suspect that it's a hardware problem, but since I'm not an expert when
>it comes to hardware, I'm not sure how to go about proving whether
>it's a software or hardware issue.  Can anybody give me any pointers
>on where to start looking?  If it were a desktop, I'd just try
>swapping in a new sound card, but I'm not sure what to do on a laptop.
>
>The basic symptom is that the music player acts like it's playing
>stuff, but no sound comes out, either from the built-in speakers or
>the headphone jack.
>
>Does anybody know of a definitive way to prove whether it's a hardware
>or software issue?  By the way, I'm running Ubuntu Dapper on a HP
>zv6000 series laptop.
>
>Thanks,
>Jonathon
>
>  
>
A couple of ideas --

Have you checked that ALL the channels on the mixer (KMix?) are enabled, 
and full volume?

Try a live CD, like Knoppix?

I'm on a HP zv5000 running Kubuntu (KDE) Breezy right now.  I have 
discovered that sometimes one sound program (Kaffeine, for instance) 
messes up settings (often codecs) for other programs.  Just have to go 
through resetting the configurations.

There's a "Switch" setting in the Kmix control that enables a "Headphone 
Jack Sense" -- turns off the speakers when the headphones are plugged 
in.  You might try fiddling with that.

And you said that you've tried playing an audio CD, right?

Kraig



From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 20:08:56 2006
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:08:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] sound problems
In-Reply-To: <44A08197.6060400@tcq.net>
References: <ee2fcb570606261714h78bd1abey2df0424b5853c3cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A08197.6060400@tcq.net>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570606261808h1e45ffc2ra9313ad94a99dac6@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, Kraig <jkjones at tcq.net> wrote:
> A couple of ideas --
>
> Have you checked that ALL the channels on the mixer (KMix?) are enabled,
> and full volume?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious <sheepish grin>  -- that was the
problem.  I was only looking at the main channel.  Ughh.

Thanks,
Jonner


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jun 26 20:19:43 2006
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:19:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0606261942150.13948@beer.tclug.org>

  Was this email a joke?  If so, I apologize in advance.  If not...

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:
> *snip*
>
> Too bad we didn't have a brief explanation of your ideas about the issues
> before the vote.  You sent one word: "denied."  Then when the guy you
> treated so rudely responded in kind, he was attacked instead of you.

  He sent one word followed by a number of other paragraphs, the first of 
which was:

> Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to vote for 
> the removal of the yahoo ban.

  How is that rude?  He gave Wayne an alternative, and several suggestions 
on how to circumvent the ban (i.e., gmane).

> I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all the
> exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look any more
> productive than some of the other messages you've sent today.

  I'm not finding yours any more productive, considering you quoted Bob out 
of context and ignored the meat of his email.
  For the record, I pulled that quote out of this message, which I can only 
imagine you were attempting to refer to:

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050017.html

  Despite Bob's claimed title, whenever an ethical or technical dilemma has 
come up on the list (as far as I can recall, at least), he's taken the 
issue to the list and gotten our opinion.  I recall this method being 
employed for the Yahoo/Hotmail ban, the Reply-To munging, whether messages 
should be deleted from the archive upon request...probably others, but I 
can't think of them off-hand.
  Since you didn't care to read his most recent email, I'll summarize: it 
was the background story of what led to the Yahoo ban.

      Jima


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Mon Jun 26 20:39:50 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:39:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF66A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Actually the first word was "Denied.".  

As far as alternatives, none work, at least that I've been able to figure out.  After gmane came back up (it was down for 4 hours), I spent 2 hours trying to figure out how to access it via e-mail.  It supports web access, nntp, and RSS, but no e-mail that I've seen.  According to it's overview, it's designed to allow users to access a mailing list via these interfaces.

Any one who actually uses it as an e-mail gateway, please let me know.





-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jima
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:20 PM
To: Mike Miller
Cc: TCLUG List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list


  Was this email a joke?  If so, I apologize in advance.  If not...

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Bob Tanner wrote:
> *snip*
>
> Too bad we didn't have a brief explanation of your ideas about the issues
> before the vote.  You sent one word: "denied."  Then when the guy you
> treated so rudely responded in kind, he was attacked instead of you.

  He sent one word followed by a number of other paragraphs, the first of 
which was:

> Unless you can get poll up and get majority of subscribers to vote for 
> the removal of the yahoo ban.

  How is that rude?  He gave Wayne an alternative, and several suggestions 
on how to circumvent the ban (i.e., gmane).

> I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all the
> exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look any more
> productive than some of the other messages you've sent today.

  I'm not finding yours any more productive, considering you quoted Bob out 
of context and ignored the meat of his email.
  For the record, I pulled that quote out of this message, which I can only 
imagine you were attempting to refer to:

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050017.html

  Despite Bob's claimed title, whenever an ethical or technical dilemma has 
come up on the list (as far as I can recall, at least), he's taken the 
issue to the list and gotten our opinion.  I recall this method being 
employed for the Yahoo/Hotmail ban, the Reply-To munging, whether messages 
should be deleted from the archive upon request...probably others, but I 
can't think of them off-hand.
  Since you didn't care to read his most recent email, I'll summarize: it 
was the background story of what led to the Yahoo ban.

      Jima

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From smac at visi.com  Mon Jun 26 21:41:15 2006
From: smac at visi.com (Sam MacDonald)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:41:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
Message-ID: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com>

What the heck, I feel like I've been spamed.
Enough with the Yahoo and Free Mail Lise.

This has nothing to do with LINUX!

If you don't like something change it, if you don't want something get 
rid of it.

But don't whine about it.

Sam.


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 00:04:47 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:04:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF66A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF66A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060627050447.83A9B70E7@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> Actually the first word was "Denied.".  

Yes.  A good word it is, too.  I like it served with a slight edge of
sarcasm and a crooked grin.

> After gmane came back up (it was down for 4 hours), I spent 2 hours
> trying to figure out how to access it via e- mail.  It supports web
> access,

There's the ticket!  View it in frames/threaded with javascript
enabled.  Choose the "Post" drop-down "-Action-".  Violla!

> nntp, and RSS, but no e-mail that I've seen.  According to it's o
> verview, it's designed to allow users to access a mailing list via
> these interfaces.

Yep.  Great system.

> Any one who actually uses it as an e-mail gateway, please let me
> know.

It's not an email gateway.  Use the web front-end to post.
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 00:06:38 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:06:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF66A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF66A@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060627050638.62F8F70E7@skuld.wookimus.net>

Oh yeah, gmane.org has a faq...

http://gmane.org/faq.php
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 00:10:49 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:10:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>

Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
> Too bad we didn't have a brief explanation of your ideas about the
> issues before the vote.  You sent one word: "denied."  Then when the
> guy you treated so rudely responded in kind, he was attacked instead
> of you.

To be clear, Mike, there is no vote.  If you wish to propose an
official community vote to re-enable Yahoo! accounts to the list, then
do so.

Besides, "Denied." isn't so rude, it's simply a statement.  Perhaps he
should have put a smiley face behind it; they're apparently necessary
in email today.  How about this one: :-P

> I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all
> the exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look
> any more productive than some of the other messages you've sent
> today.

Actually, it was a relatively succinct account of the process that led
to the community-driven decision to ban Yahoo! accounts from the list.
It may not have been a masterpiece of literary delight, but it got to
the point in few words.  It's worth a read.  Go to GMANE or the list
archives if you routinely delete useful list email before you read it.

In any case, you'll find no second in me for such a vote proposal, if
it does make it to the list.  If we have over 700 users on the list
and require a majority vote to allow Yahoo back on, and if the quorum
needed is, let's say 15%, then at least 74 votes must be cast
(verified via PGP/GnuPG).  The ballot would be simple:  keep the ban,
drop the ban, find a herring and use it to cut down the largest tree
in the forest and then find a nice shrubbery...

Or, we could just ignore all this and get back to talking about Linux?
I suppose not...

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Jun 27 00:56:55 2006
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (tclug at beitsahour.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:56:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1151387815.748552.23323.1001@home>

Chad Walstrom writes:

> Or, we could just ignore all this and get back to talking about Linux?
> I suppose not...

Leenooks? what is this lienacks thing that you are talking about?

--
Munir Nassar


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 08:21:35 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:21:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> To be clear, Mike, there is no vote.  If you wish to propose an official 
> community vote to re-enable Yahoo! accounts to the list, then do so.

So the poll that someone started on the TCLUG home page the other day is 
not going to be used?


> Besides, "Denied." isn't so rude, it's simply a statement.  Perhaps he 
> should have put a smiley face behind it; they're apparently necessary in 
> email today.  How about this one: :-P

That's nice but it's a little too late for that kind of thing, isn't it? 
You've already had to wade through about 50 emails on this thread.


>> I don't have time to read the rest of your aimless message with all the 
>> exclamation points and one-word sentences, but it doesn't look any more 
>> productive than some of the other messages you've sent today.
>
> Actually, it was a relatively succinct account of the process that led 
> to the community-driven decision to ban Yahoo! accounts from the list.

My mistake.  It started out with what he called "flamebait" about MUAs and 
the rest of the message looked like a horrible mess in pine for some 
reason.  I just found it here...

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html

...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess pine 
had a problem with it).  Here is my summary of what happened:

(1) a message from a yahoo.com email account sent malware to the list
(2) people let themselves be infected by this malware
(3) newly infected people sent more spam to the list
(4) TCLUG members decided to blame yahoo.com for this
(5) after a vote, yahoo.com was then banned from TCLUG list

In other words, there was no good reason to ban yahoo.com in the first 
place.  In case I am misunderstood, I should point out that I am not using 
Yahoo.com.  I use Pine on Solaris, so I don't really care about the yahoo 
issue but I think it is unfair and unhelpful to single out one mail source 
based on a single email from 5 years ago.

Mike


From smac at visi.com  Tue Jun 27 08:32:15 2006
From: smac at visi.com (smac at visi.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:32:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com>
Message-ID: <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>

Would someone lock this thread, Please.

Sam.


Quoting Sam MacDonald <smac at visi.com>:

> What the heck, I feel like I've been spamed.
> Enough with the Yahoo and Free Mail Lise.
>
> This has nothing to do with LINUX!
>
> If you don't like something change it, if you don't want something get
> rid of it.
>
> But don't whine about it.
>
> Sam.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 08:44:50 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:44:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:

> the rest of the message looked like a horrible mess in pine for some 
> reason. I just found it here...
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
>
> ...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess 
> pine had a problem with it).

In case anyone is curious about how that message looked in pine, check 
this out:

http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/tanner_email_in_pine.gif

It isn't pine's fault.  The message is a single plain text attachment and 
if I save it as text and look at it in "less", it is just as messed up. 
How TCLUG's list archive transforms that mess into this neatly-formatted 
message is a mystery to me:

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html

Mike


From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 08:46:13 2006
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:46:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com> <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, smac at visi.com <smac at visi.com> wrote:
> Would someone lock this thread, Please.

Can't really "lock" a thread in a mailing list, unfortunately.


From sulrich at botwerks.org  Tue Jun 27 08:53:41 2006
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:53:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com>
	<e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <44A13865.7040904@botwerks.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:

[snipped]

> My mistake.  It started out with what he called "flamebait" about MUAs and 
> the rest of the message looked like a horrible mess in pine for some 
> reason.  I just found it here...
> 
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
> 
> ...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess pine 
> had a problem with it).  Here is my summary of what happened:
> 
> (1) a message from a yahoo.com email account sent malware to the list
> (2) people let themselves be infected by this malware
> (3) newly infected people sent more spam to the list
> (4) TCLUG members decided to blame yahoo.com for this
> (5) after a vote, yahoo.com was then banned from TCLUG list
> 
> In other words, there was no good reason to ban yahoo.com in the first 
> place.  In case I am misunderstood, I should point out that I am not using 
> Yahoo.com.  I use Pine on Solaris, so I don't really care about the yahoo 
> issue but I think it is unfair and unhelpful to single out one mail source 
> based on a single email from 5 years ago.

*shrug* - seems akin to about 80% of the responses i've seen to things
on this list.  i'll dutifully point out that the SNR has improved
considerably over the past year or so.

e.g.: someone lofts a query as to why something doesn't work under
distribution X, and the response is a flood of messages about how they
should really be using distribution Y with the purple colored patch kit
and the lime flavored frannistan.

seriously, are you really all that surprised by heavy handed responses
to things? ;-)

[snipped]

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 09:03:20 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:03:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com> <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>
	<fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270902520.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Erik Anderson wrote:

> On 6/27/06, smac at visi.com <smac at visi.com> wrote:
>> Would someone lock this thread, Please.
>
> Can't really "lock" a thread in a mailing list, unfortunately.

If you just ignore it, it will go away.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Jun 27 09:14:11 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:14:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627141411.GK29271@iucha.net>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 08:44:50AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:
> 
> > the rest of the message looked like a horrible mess in pine for some 
> > reason. I just found it here...
> >
> > http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
> >
> > ...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess 
> > pine had a problem with it).
> 
> In case anyone is curious about how that message looked in pine, check 
> this out:
> 
> http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/tanner_email_in_pine.gif

What is wrong with it, other than the text flow? Which...

> It isn't pine's fault.

Oh, yes, it is.

>                        The message is a single plain text attachment and 
> if I save it as text and look at it in "less", it is just as messed up.

No, it is not. The message is text/plain, encoded with base64. You can
get it raw at:

   http://iucha.net/tclug/bob_email.txt

What Bob sent, it is precisely what we've got. My MUA (mutt on Linux)
has no problem displaying it, with the proper text flow (paragraphs,
white spaces, etc.).

   http://iucha.net/tclug/Screenshot.png

> How TCLUG's list archive transforms that mess into this neatly-formatted 
> message is a mystery to me:

Your MUA is a mess, not the message.

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 09:18:17 2006
From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:18:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com> <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>
	<fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <914f813c0606270718t23928f60wed7ef396921b3242@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/27/06, smac at visi.com <smac at visi.com> wrote:
> > Would someone lock this thread, Please.
>
> Can't really "lock" a thread in a mailing list, unfortunately.

Besides that, locking *this* thread wouldn't really benefit the list,
as it's a thread complaining about another thread. Which is really
special when you're reading in GMail which uses subjects to identify
new threads...thanks for that Sam.

Aside from that, at it's root is a valid question and request: unblock
yahoo.com email addresses. If people considered whether it was
necessary *today* and just said yes/no, instead of complaining, or
responding with "use GMail" instead of addressing the original
question, the thread would have been dead and Yahoo would have been
unblocked. But instead we have more activity in the past two days than
we've had in two weeks, and fully of BS.


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 27 09:22:47 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:22:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

So, not only am I effectivle banned from the mailing list, I now have been limited to only access it via a web browser.  No thanks.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chad Walstrom
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:05 AM
> To: tclug-list-bounces+chewie=wookimus.net at mn-linux.org
> Cc: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> > Actually the first word was "Denied.".  
> 
> Yes.  A good word it is, too.  I like it served with a slight edge of
> sarcasm and a crooked grin.
> 
> > After gmane came back up (it was down for 4 hours), I spent 2 hours
> > trying to figure out how to access it via e- mail.  It supports web
> > access,
> 
> There's the ticket!  View it in frames/threaded with javascript
> enabled.  Choose the "Post" drop-down "-Action-".  Violla!
> 
> > nntp, and RSS, but no e-mail that I've seen.  According to it's o
> > verview, it's designed to allow users to access a mailing list via
> > these interfaces.
> 
> Yep.  Great system.
> 
> > Any one who actually uses it as an e-mail gateway, please let me
> > know.
> 
> It's not an email gateway.  Use the web front-end to post.
> -- 
> Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
>            assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From david.fawcett at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 09:37:07 2006
From: david.fawcett at gmail.com (David Fawcett)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:37:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270902520.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com> <1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>
	<fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270902520.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <ed718af50606270737u7f8c9a86g8f8d8a950ddfcba3@mail.gmail.com>

Better yet, if I just unsubscribe, it will all go away.

I have lurked on this list for about a year, learned a few things, followed
some interesting threads, etc.  I have been using linux for a few years and
still have a lot to learn, but I really don't need all of this crap and
politics.

The idea of banning an entire domain because of an infection five years ago
seems ridiculous and archaic.  If you want a list that is a closed club for
long-term members and linux users, I think that you have it.  You are
definitely turning off the newcomers and potential converts.

UNSUBSCRIBE

David.

PS.  All of the cool people are banning AOL...  ; / >


On 6/27/06, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Erik Anderson wrote:
>
> > On 6/27/06, smac at visi.com <smac at visi.com> wrote:
> >> Would someone lock this thread, Please.
> >
> > Can't really "lock" a thread in a mailing list, unfortunately.
>
> If you just ignore it, it will go away.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Jun 27 09:35:56 2006
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:35:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0606270935370.14867@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:
> In case anyone is curious about how that message looked in pine, check 
> this out:
>
> http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/tanner_email_in_pine.gif
>
> It isn't pine's fault.  The message is a single plain text attachment 
> and if I save it as text and look at it in "less", it is just as messed 
> up. How TCLUG's list archive transforms that mess into this 
> neatly-formatted message is a mystery to me:
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html

FYI - looks perfect in Pine to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 09:50:43 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:50:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com>
	<e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <44A145C3.9070200@gmail.com>


> 
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
> 
> Here is my summary of what happened:
> 
> (1) a message from a yahoo.com email account sent malware to the list
> (2) people let themselves be infected by this malware
> (3) newly infected people sent more spam to the list
> (4) TCLUG members decided to blame yahoo.com for this
> (5) after a vote, yahoo.com was then banned from TCLUG list
> 
> In other words, there was no good reason to ban yahoo.com in the first 
> place.  In case I am misunderstood, I should point out that I am not using 
> Yahoo.com.  I use Pine on Solaris, so I don't really care about the yahoo 
> issue but I think it is unfair and unhelpful to single out one mail source 
> based on a single email from 5 years ago.
> 
> Mike
> 

Yep, thats how I read it too.  Given this, I think its silly to still 
have the ban in place.  But now, people will vote against removing it 
just out of principle, because they are annoyed with this thread, if for 
no other reason.

If another virus outbreak occurs - only this time, it starts with a 
gmail account, precedence (and a vote, although not specific to gmail at 
the time) says that we need to ban gmail too.

Dan



-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Jun 27 10:00:25 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:00:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060627150025.GL29271@iucha.net>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 09:22:47AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> So, not only am I effectivle banned from the mailing list, I now have been limited to only access it via a web browser.  No thanks.

"Effectively banned"?

That reminds me of the joke with the drunk banging his head on the
lamp-post crying "Why did you lock me in? Let me out!"

I think you are just getting beyond miffed and in the unreasonable
territory... Have a nice trip!

florin

-- 
One look at the From:
understanding has blossomed
.procmailrc grows
   -- Al Viro, Pine.GSO.4.21.0210311331570.16688-100000 at weyl.math.psu.edu

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 10:04:34 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:04:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] munging base64 email messages
In-Reply-To: <20060627141411.GK29271@iucha.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627141411.GK29271@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270931070.26329@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 08:44:50AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>>> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
>>>
>>> ...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess 
>>> pine had a problem with it).
>>
>> In case anyone is curious about how that message looked in pine, check 
>> this out:
>>
>> http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/tanner_email_in_pine.gif
>
> What is wrong with it, other than the text flow? Which...
>
>> It isn't pine's fault.
>
> Oh, yes, it is.

Not quite, but thanks to your help I can now see that it's caused by 
something on my system that precedes pine.


>> The message is a single plain text attachment and if I save it as text 
>> and look at it in "less", it is just as messed up.
>
> No, it is not. The message is text/plain, encoded with base64. You can 
> get it raw at:
>
>   http://iucha.net/tclug/bob_email.txt

I can copy that to my system and it looks fine in pine.  But the copy on 
my system is different and that is why pine displays it differently. 
This is in the message header on my system:

X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by taxa.epi.umn.edu id k5QKhkZC010404

That is not added by pine but by either procmail (with spambouncer) or 
sendmail, both of which process the message on my system before pine sees 
it.  I think the problem might be spambouncer.  Does anyone have any 
experience with this problem?

Thanks for the tip!

Mike


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 10:08:16 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:08:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627150816.C784AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>

Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
> In other words, there was no good reason to ban yahoo.com in the
> first place.

Except for the fact that banning Yahoo at time time worked out quite
well to suppress the spambot.  That actually qualifies as a "good
reason" in my book.

> In case I am misunderstood, I should point out that I am not using
> Yahoo.com.  I use Pine on Solaris, so I don't really care about the
> yahoo issue but I think it is unfair and unhelpful to single out one
> mail source based on a single email from 5 years ago.

Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
come to the end of this conversation.

And no, polls are not votes.  Polls are polls.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From joey.rockhold at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 10:28:56 2006
From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:28:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <101e49ea0606270828i47072bd5hb97698326d6c97c1@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a wild idea....

When an issue like this arises, discuss this at a TCLUG meeting.
Everyone bring their research, ideas, etc. to the TCLUG meeting, and
discuss it like adults.  This solves 2 problems:
1) It gets the topic off the mailing list
2) The problem gets resolved/voted on in front on actual human beings.
 Then, no matter the outcome, at least everyone can have their say in
front of others.

I do want to disagree with one point.  Some people have been saying
that this topic is not linux related, and thus should not be on the
mailing list.  This is wrong.  The topic is about a TCLUG rule that is
in place, and TCLUG items belong in the TCLUG mailing list.

There's my 2 cents.

- Joey


On 6/27/06, Wayne Johnson <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com> wrote:
> So, not only am I effectivle banned from the mailing list, I now have been limited to only access it via a web browser.  No thanks.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chad Walstrom
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:05 AM
> > To: tclug-list-bounces+chewie=wookimus.net at mn-linux.org
> > Cc: TCLUG List
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> >
> >
> > "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> > > Actually the first word was "Denied.".
> >
> > Yes.  A good word it is, too.  I like it served with a slight edge of
> > sarcasm and a crooked grin.
> >
> > > After gmane came back up (it was down for 4 hours), I spent 2 hours
> > > trying to figure out how to access it via e- mail.  It supports web
> > > access,
> >
> > There's the ticket!  View it in frames/threaded with javascript
> > enabled.  Choose the "Post" drop-down "-Action-".  Violla!
> >
> > > nntp, and RSS, but no e-mail that I've seen.  According to it's o
> > > verview, it's designed to allow users to access a mailing list via
> > > these interfaces.
> >
> > Yep.  Great system.
> >
> > > Any one who actually uses it as an e-mail gateway, please let me
> > > know.
> >
> > It's not an email gateway.  Use the web front-end to post.
> > --
> > Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
> >            assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From j at packetgod.com  Tue Jun 27 10:45:11 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:45:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <ed718af50606270737u7f8c9a86g8f8d8a950ddfcba3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com>
	<1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>	<fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270902520.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ed718af50606270737u7f8c9a86g8f8d8a950ddfcba3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A15287.6020003@packetgod.com>

I'm starting a new list too!  It's called 
yahoo-tclug at whoreallygivesaflyingrip.com  for discussions on whether we 
should allow yahoo, new competing listservs, and any discussions on why 
those first two topics suck or are spam.

This is why threaded mail is so nice, just click the little minus and 
the whole thread just goes away!  Thank you thunderbird.

--j

David Fawcett wrote:
> Better yet, if I just unsubscribe, it will all go away. 
>
> I have lurked on this list for about a year, learned a few things, 
> followed some interesting threads, etc.  I have been using linux for a 
> few years and still have a lot to learn, but I really don't need all 
> of this crap and politics. 
>
> The idea of banning an entire domain because of an infection five 
> years ago seems ridiculous and archaic.  If you want a list that is a 
> closed club for long-term members and linux users, I think that you 
> have it.  You are definitely turning off the newcomers and potential 
> converts. 
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE
>
> David.
>
> PS.  All of the cool people are banning AOL...  ; / >
>
>
> On 6/27/06, *Mike Miller* <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu 
> <mailto:mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Erik Anderson wrote:
>
>     > On 6/27/06, smac at visi.com <mailto:smac at visi.com> <smac at visi.com
>     <mailto:smac at visi.com>> wrote:
>     >> Would someone lock this thread, Please.
>     >
>     > Can't really "lock" a thread in a mailing list, unfortunately.
>
>     If you just ignore it, it will go away.
>
>     Mike
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   




From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 10:57:25 2006
From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:57:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
Message-ID: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
> come to the end of this conversation.

Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, let me start it off:

Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 27 10:59:34 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:59:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF676@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

And how would you feel if you were told you either have to change your e-mail address you've had for 10 years, or only access the list via a web interface, because 5 years ago a virus MAY have been sent from a yahoo spam-bot which is now no longer a possibility. 

Miffed, yes.  Unreasonable, that apparently is in the eyes of the beholder.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:00 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 09:22:47AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > So, not only am I effectivle banned from the mailing list, 
> I now have been limited to only access it via a web browser.  
> No thanks.
> 
> "Effectively banned"?
> 
> That reminds me of the joke with the drunk banging his head on the
> lamp-post crying "Why did you lock me in? Let me out!"
> 
> I think you are just getting beyond miffed and in the unreasonable
> territory... Have a nice trip!
> 
> florin
> 
> -- 
> One look at the From:
> understanding has blossomed
> .procmailrc grows
>    -- Al Viro, 
> Pine.GSO.4.21.0210311331570.16688-100000 at weyl.math.psu.edu
> 
> 


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 27 11:01:42 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:01:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF677@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

I did make the proposal (which is what started this thread), and the TCLUG leaders responded with this poll.  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chad Walstrom
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:08 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
> > In other words, there was no good reason to ban yahoo.com in the
> > first place.
> 
> Except for the fact that banning Yahoo at time time worked out quite
> well to suppress the spambot.  That actually qualifies as a "good
> reason" in my book.
> 
> > In case I am misunderstood, I should point out that I am not using
> > Yahoo.com.  I use Pine on Solaris, so I don't really care about the
> > yahoo issue but I think it is unfair and unhelpful to single out one
> > mail source based on a single email from 5 years ago.
> 
> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
> come to the end of this conversation.
> 
> And no, polls are not votes.  Polls are polls.
> 
> -- 
> Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
>            assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 11:07:22 2006
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:07:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] USB/SCSI Device Mappings
In-Reply-To: <44A04E13.4040706@visi.com>
References: <579c6fd30606231327g6e17364fse7c036bf45d266f@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A04E13.4040706@visi.com>
Message-ID: <ace41e70606270907r570a93f9ge8f15e558e1b0570@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/26/06, rwh <rwh at visi.com> wrote:
> I have a set of external USB disks that contain encrypted partitions and
> I'm trying to set up a service script to mount those disks with the
> appropriate passwords in a way that will be reasonably robust across
> reboots, etc.
>
> I've gotten to the point where I could parse the information in
> /proc/scsi/scsi to map the scsi device to the device assignment, grep
> through the system log to find the device that was assigned, and use
> that to grab the appropriate password and mount point for the volume.
>
> I'm wondering if I'm missing something and where there is a table
> somewhere in /proc, or an existing utility that can dump this information?
>

This sounds like a good case for using udev on newer kernels.  At the
very least, take a look at /sys on 2.6.x kernels, there is a bunch of
new stuff in there for looking at devices plugged into your system.


-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From tmarble at info9.net  Tue Jun 27 11:21:44 2006
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:21:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>

John T. Hoffoss wrote:
> On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
>> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
>> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
>> come to the end of this conversation.
> 
> Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, let me start it off:
> 
> Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban

We're not really going to conduct a poll via e-mail, are we?

There *must* be some FOSS solution for strong authentication
(at least identity as confirmed by round-trip e-mail, if not GPG).
When I edit my "members page" I am prompted for HTTP Basic Authentication
so https://mn-linux.org has an identity database that we could use.
So I'm advocating voting on a website (instead of e-mail) so that we can
reduce the likelihood of gaming the vote and provide statistics.

Didn't Bob refer to some website for the (older?) poll?
I didn't dig for that URL because if we are starting a new poll I don't want to
speak for the disposition of any previous infrastructure/poll.

Regards,

--Tom

P.S. This challenge of making TCLUG decisions (what's a quorum, etc.)
     is (IMHO) much more important than any given issue (even Yahoo).


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 11:25:42 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:25:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF677@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF677@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060627162542.A11DCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> I did make the proposal (which is what started this thread), and the
> TCLUG leaders responded with this poll.

The way I read your original email was to request discussion or
"reconsideration" as you put it.  That is exactly what we had; well
more of a flame-war, in any case.

Web-based, anonymous pools can be skewed by forged votes relatively
easily.  I do not know who wrote the poll software and what
precautions were made to prevent multiple votes from the same person,
but using SSH tunnelling via multiple workstations would easily give
someone multiple IP addresses from which to "vote" in the poll.

Since members of the email list must have a voice in this, not
anonymous people from the Internet, and since only members can post to
the list without moderation, the list is the proper place to do the
vote.  Granted, this would generate a lot of one-liner emails, but
your access control and membership is already established.  Since
votes do not come up often, I don't think anything more formalized or
automated is really necessary.

If you can all agree that a 10% quorum for a simple majority vote is
sufficient to express the opinions of the list, and because it appears
that the proposal thread "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban"  has been made by
John T. Hoffoss in Message-ID:
<914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a at mail.gmail.com>, let the
vote begin.

Bob, what is the official number of members on the list?

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 11:30:37 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:30:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <44A15B18.8010009@info9.net> 
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
Message-ID: <20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>

While it may be possible to set up some sort of voting mechanism,  I
don't know if it is strictly necessary for this Yahoo! ban issue.  If
you feel it is necessary to do strong authentication, such as using
the Debian voting system, we could certainly set something up.
Personally, I hate being required to log on to a web site to vote, and
rather enjoy the Condorcet voting that Debian has established.  It
probably should be up to the Secretary to establish ballots and run
votes.  I just want to get the ball rolling so we can drop the whole
Yahoo thread.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From ajs at cems.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 11:36:58 2006
From: ajs at cems.umn.edu (Andy Schmid)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:36:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>	<44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
	<20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <44A15EAA.7070008@cems.umn.edu>


Chad Walstrom wrote:

>While it may be possible to set up some sort of voting mechanism,  I
>don't know if it is strictly necessary for this Yahoo! ban issue.  If
>you feel it is necessary to do strong authentication, such as using
>the Debian voting system, we could certainly set something up.
>Personally, I hate being required to log on to a web site to vote, and
>rather enjoy the Condorcet voting that Debian has established.  It
>probably should be up to the Secretary to establish ballots and run
>votes.  *I just want to get the ball rolling so we can drop the whole
>Yahoo thread.*
>
>  
>
agreed


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Jun 27 11:48:19 2006
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (tclug at beitsahour.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:48:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1151426899.730977.23323.1001@home>

John T. Hoffoss writes:

> On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
>> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
>> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
>> come to the end of this conversation.
> 
> Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, let me start it off:
> 
> Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban

i vote no, keep the ban. 


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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 12:08:39 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:08:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, John T. Hoffoss wrote:

> On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>
>> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're 
>> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually see 
>> a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much come to 
>> the end of this conversation.
>
> Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, let me start 
> it off:
>
> Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban

I second the motion.

OK, now what do we do?

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 12:12:54 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:12:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
	<20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271211341.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> While it may be possible to set up some sort of voting mechanism, I 
> don't know if it is strictly necessary for this Yahoo! ban issue.  If 
> you feel it is necessary to do strong authentication, such as using the 
> Debian voting system, we could certainly set something up. Personally, I 
> hate being required to log on to a web site to vote, and rather enjoy 
> the Condorcet voting that Debian has established.  It probably should be 
> up to the Secretary to establish ballots and run votes.

Sounds good.  One point:  Condorcet voting is just the same as ordinary 
"he with the most votes wins" voting when there are only two options.

Mike


From spencer at autonomous.tv  Tue Jun 27 12:19:24 2006
From: spencer at autonomous.tv (Spencer Butler)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:19:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060627171924.GA29901@autonomous.tv>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 10:57:25AM -0500, John T. Hoffoss wrote:
>On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
>> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm sure we're
>> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
>> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
>> come to the end of this conversation.
>
>Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, let me start it off:
>
>Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban
Keep the ban.  Yahoo and microsoft and user error created this issue
wiith the mailing list.  It was a fiasco then, and apparently now as
well.  If only for historic purposes, keep the ban.  Just like any
experienced soldier, the scars we wear help define us.  OTOH, removing
the ban will become quite the topic once another viral outbreak creeps
in from the yahoo door.

--
Linux Administrator || Technology Specialist || Wifi Engineer
Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2  68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754
i
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From j at packetgod.com  Tue Jun 27 12:27:20 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:27:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF676@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF676@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <44A16A78.1000205@packetgod.com>

You do recall that major worm Yahoo had a week or two ago?  Spammed many 
many a mailing list I'm on with a virus that just needed you to look at 
the e-mail graphics and I'm sure you saw it too if you belong to any 
yahoo groups.  No longer a possibility is not a fair statement 
whatsoever.  You even read my original post on the yahoo worm and 
replied to it so why would you think it isn't a possibility anymore?

In any case I still don't really care if we open up the list to yahoo or 
not as worms are everywhere, the only choice is to allow free e-mail 
services or not and I believe that we should allow them to keep the 
group as open as possible.

--j



Wayne Johnson wrote:
> And how would you feel if you were told you either have to change your e-mail address you've had for 10 years, or only access the list via a web interface, because 5 years ago a virus MAY have been sent from a yahoo spam-bot which is now no longer a possibility. 
>
> Miffed, yes.  Unreasonable, that apparently is in the eyes of the beholder.
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:00 AM
>> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 09:22:47AM -0500, Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>     
>>> So, not only am I effectivle banned from the mailing list, 
>>>       
>> I now have been limited to only access it via a web browser.  
>> No thanks.
>>
>> "Effectively banned"?
>>
>> That reminds me of the joke with the drunk banging his head on the
>> lamp-post crying "Why did you lock me in? Let me out!"
>>
>> I think you are just getting beyond miffed and in the unreasonable
>> territory... Have a nice trip!
>>
>> florin
>>
>> -- 
>> One look at the From:
>> understanding has blossomed
>> .procmailrc grows
>>    -- Al Viro, 
>> Pine.GSO.4.21.0210311331570.16688-100000 at weyl.math.psu.edu
>>
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   




From florin at iucha.net  Tue Jun 27 12:25:56 2006
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:25:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <20060627162542.A11DCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF677@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<20060627162542.A11DCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <20060627172556.GN29271@iucha.net>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 11:25:42AM -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> If you can all agree that a 10% quorum for a simple majority vote is
> sufficient to express the opinions of the list, and because it appears
> that the proposal thread "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban"  has been made by
> John T. Hoffoss in Message-ID:
> <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a at mail.gmail.com>, let the
> vote begin.

Agreed.

> Bob, what is the official number of members on the list?

Last number I heard was around 750+ subscribers.

The TCLUG poll attracted 94 votes.

From my archives (oldest post 27 Nov 2004):
   grep ^From: * | cut -d: -f4 | cut -d\< -f1 | tr -d \" | sort | uniq | wc -l
gives 387.

Based on the previous two numbers, I consider 80 votes an acceptable quorum.

florin

-- 
If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
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From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 12:41:02 2006
From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:41:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
Message-ID: <914f813c0606271041m645ec095x3c17f2f16f9ca3fd@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, Tom Marble <tmarble at info9.net> wrote:
> John T. Hoffoss wrote:
> > Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban
>
> We're not really going to conduct a poll via e-mail, are we?
>
> There *must* be some FOSS solution for strong authentication
> (at least identity as confirmed by round-trip e-mail, if not GPG).
> When I edit my "members page" I am prompted for HTTP Basic Authentication
> so https://mn-linux.org has an identity database that we could use.
> So I'm advocating voting on a website (instead of e-mail) so that we can
> reduce the likelihood of gaming the vote and provide statistics.
>
> Didn't Bob refer to some website for the (older?) poll?
> I didn't dig for that URL because if we are starting a new poll I don't want to
> speak for the disposition of any previous infrastructure/poll.

Holy crap people, what the hell is wrong with just saying yes/no? Auit
the discussion, at least in this thread, and quit the "hey lets write
a tool to do this" and lets just frickin do it so we can be done with
this one way or the other. Saying yes/no in an email WORKS. You don't
need a poll software. You can't really go around and spoof votes this
way either, unless you're going to register a bunch of yahoo (grin)
accounts to skew the results.


From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 12:42:38 2006
From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:42:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271211341.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A15B18.8010009@info9.net>
	<20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271211341.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627124238.A1879@baker.space.umn.edu>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 12:12:54PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> 
> > While it may be possible to set up some sort of voting mechanism, I 
> > don't know if it is strictly necessary for this Yahoo! ban issue.  If 
> > you feel it is necessary to do strong authentication, such as using the 
> > Debian voting system, we could certainly set something up. Personally, I 
> > hate being required to log on to a web site to vote, and rather enjoy 
> > the Condorcet voting that Debian has established.  It probably should be 
> > up to the Secretary to establish ballots and run votes.
> 
> Sounds good.  One point:  Condorcet voting is just the same as ordinary 
> "he with the most votes wins" voting when there are only two options.

In this case I think that the three options would be  "Keep 
the ban", "Lift the ban", "More discussion needed."

I don't think the third option has much of a chance ;) .

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/ 
Never laugh at live dragons  |


From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 27 12:44:11 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:44:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF678@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Then you need to ban msn, aol and all the others, as well as anyone accessing this mailing list with outlook.  Why shoot the messenger.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Spencer Butler
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:19 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 10:57:25AM -0500, John T. Hoffoss wrote:
> >On 6/27/06, Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:
> >> Then formally propose a change.  Start a new thread.  I'm 
> sure we're
> >> all familiar with how voting on email lists go.  Unless we actually
> >> see a formal, "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban" email, we've pretty much
> >> come to the end of this conversation.
> >
> >Here I thought that's what we were doing...but in any case, 
> let me start it off:
> >
> >Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban
> Keep the ban.  Yahoo and microsoft and user error created this issue
> wiith the mailing list.  It was a fiasco then, and apparently now as
> well.  If only for historic purposes, keep the ban.  Just like any
> experienced soldier, the scars we wear help define us.  OTOH, removing
> the ban will become quite the topic once another viral outbreak creeps
> in from the yahoo door.
> 
> --
> Linux Administrator || Technology Specialist || Wifi Engineer
> Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2  68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754
> i
> 


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 12:51:43 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:51:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <20060627124238.A1879@baker.space.umn.edu> 
References: <20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271211341.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627124238.A1879@baker.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627175143.989E8A70@skuld.wookimus.net>

Jim Crumley <crumley at belka.space.umn.edu>  wrote:
> In this case I think that the three options would be  "Keep the
> ban", "Lift the ban", "More discussion needed."
> 
> I don't think the third option has much of a chance ;) .

True.  But we're not exactly following Debian's lead here.  Let's keep
it simple and manual for now.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 12:52:11 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:52:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>

I vote, "Yes, lift the Yahoo! ban."

Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
> OK, now what do we do?

Just state your vote.  I vote yes, because I it is possible to
moderate at a user level with the newer mailman software, and have new
list members moderated by default; something we couldn't do five+
years ago.  I fully expect those people who vote yes to be willing to
volunteer as list moderators.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 12:54:00 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:54:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Discussion: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF678@emailmn.mqsoftware.com> 
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF678@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20060627175400.DD8D4A70@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
> Then you need to ban msn, aol and all the others, as well as anyone
> accessing this mailing list wit h outlook.  Why shoot the messenger.

Let's keep the Discussion off the "voting" thread, if possible.  Next
time, we'll start a "Vote: {TOPIC}" thread strictly for ballots.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 13:22:12 2006
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:22:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A17754.60009@gmail.com>

Yes, lift the ban.


-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 27 13:20:57 2006
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:20:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOELOCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> >
> > Yes, Lift Yahoo Ban
>
> I second the motion.
>

Lift the ban

Ban voting on the list when there's already an adequate off-list poll
members can find.

Chuck



From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 13:37:02 2006
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:37:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <44A17754.60009@gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<44A17754.60009@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570606271137r4a8170ecr99cd8539a77891ca@mail.gmail.com>

I vote Yes, lift the ban


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Tue Jun 27 13:36:10 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:36:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
In-Reply-To: <ed718af50606270737u7f8c9a86g8f8d8a950ddfcba3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44A09ACB.4020808@visi.com>
	<1151415135.44a1335fc5e12@my.visi.com>	<fc40260f0606270646w2f8fb886pb79a1457b1ff0cbb@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270902520.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ed718af50606270737u7f8c9a86g8f8d8a950ddfcba3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A17A9A.7090409@mchsi.com>

David Fawcett wrote:
> Better yet, if I just unsubscribe, it will all go away.
> 
> I have lurked on this list for about a year, learned a few things, followed
> some interesting threads, etc.  I have been using linux for a few years and
> still have a lot to learn, but I really don't need all of this crap and
> politics.
> 
> The idea of banning an entire domain because of an infection five years ago
> seems ridiculous and archaic.  If you want a list that is a closed club for
> long-term members and linux users, I think that you have it.  You are
> definitely turning off the newcomers and potential converts.
> 
> UNSUBSCRIBE
> 
> David.D 
David,
  Please do not be turned off by this. This list is a valuable resource, 
and the more people who write with problems asking questions who get 
answers, well those posts go to so many and this is just a wonderful 
resource. Converts should not be turned off either. This is THE tclug 
mailing list, and I and many others are quite fond of it. Please stay. 
And to others who may have felt the same, I ask you to stay and learn 
and have fun with us!

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Jun 27 13:48:11 2006
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (tclug at beitsahour.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:48:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting Mechanisms
References: <20060627163037.5E7BCA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271211341.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627124238.A1879@baker.space.umn.edu>
	<20060627175143.989E8A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1151434091.553962.23323.1001@home>

Chad Walstrom writes:

> Jim Crumley <crumley at belka.space.umn.edu>  wrote:
>> In this case I think that the three options would be  "Keep the
>> ban", "Lift the ban", "More discussion needed."
>> 
>> I don't think the third option has much of a chance ;) .
> 
> True.  But we're not exactly following Debian's lead here.  Let's keep
> it simple and manual for now.

a good thing too or we would be doing this for three years    

there, that should keep the flames going.




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jun 27 14:00:53 2006
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> I vote, "Yes, lift the Yahoo! ban."
>
> Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
>> OK, now what do we do?
>
> Just state your vote.  I vote yes, because I it is possible to moderate 
> at a user level with the newer mailman software, and have new list 
> members moderated by default; something we couldn't do five+ years ago. 
> I fully expect those people who vote yes to be willing to volunteer as 
> list moderators.


What a bizarre system for voting -- spam the list with votes.  Are you, 
Chad, in a position of authority within TCLUG and so your suggestion is an 
official declaration from TCLUG about how we are now supposed to vote? 
It is extraordinary because it is causing so much trouble already and your 
idea will definitely make things a *lot* worse before they get better. 
In addition to my vote below, I suggest that we should meet sometime and 
come up with a better way of managing TCLUG.

My vote: lift the ban.

Mike


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Tue Jun 27 14:01:32 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:01:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0606270828i47072bd5hb97698326d6c97c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF672@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
	<101e49ea0606270828i47072bd5hb97698326d6c97c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A1808C.4060507@mchsi.com>

Joey Rockhold wrote:
> Here is a wild idea....
> 
> When an issue like this arises, discuss this at a TCLUG meeting.
> Everyone bring their research, ideas, etc. to the TCLUG meeting, and
> discuss it like adults.  This solves 2 problems:
> 1) It gets the topic off the mailing list
> 2) The problem gets resolved/voted on in front on actual human beings.
>  Then, no matter the outcome, at least everyone can have their say in
> front of others.
> 
> I do want to disagree with one point.  Some people have been saying
> that this topic is not linux related, and thus should not be on the
> mailing list.  This is wrong.  The topic is about a TCLUG rule that is
> in place, and TCLUG items belong in the TCLUG mailing list.
> 
> There's my 2 cents.
> 
> - Joey
> 

Joey,
	I agree with you, talking about stuff like this at a meeting would make 
a lot of sense. IMHO.

	Also, I agree with you that this is in fact on topic, this is the TCLUG 
mailing list after all.

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Tue Jun 27 14:15:20 2006
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:15:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>


I vote null.
That way I contribute to the 10% quorum but I don't sway the vote
because I really don't care whether we block yahoo. I will be just as
happy either way.

I somewhat agree with Mike. I would like to know who the leadership is
and who has official say in the voting protocol. That way I don't waste
my time participating in meaningless procedures.

TCLUG leaders make yourselves known to me. Now is the time to represent!

----- Original message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
To: "Chad Walstrom" <chewie at wookimus.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> I vote, "Yes, lift the Yahoo! ban."
>
> Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
>> OK, now what do we do?
>
> Just state your vote.  I vote yes, because I it is possible to moderate 
> at a user level with the newer mailman software, and have new list 
> members moderated by default; something we couldn't do five+ years ago. 
> I fully expect those people who vote yes to be willing to volunteer as 
> list moderators.


What a bizarre system for voting -- spam the list with votes.  Are you, 
Chad, in a position of authority within TCLUG and so your suggestion is
an 
official declaration from TCLUG about how we are now supposed to vote? 
It is extraordinary because it is causing so much trouble already and
your 
idea will definitely make things a *lot* worse before they get better. 
In addition to my vote below, I suggest that we should meet sometime and 
come up with a better way of managing TCLUG.

My vote: lift the ban.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Tue Jun 27 14:15:44 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:15:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <44A183E0.5000100@mchsi.com>

yes, lift the yahoo ban. (my vote)

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx



From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 14:32:31 2006
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:32:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27e6356a0606271232s74d4b338x896f119ea335fe5b@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, lift the ban.

-- 
Justin Kremer


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Jun 27 15:03:14 2006
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (tclug at beitsahour.net)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:03:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1151438594.734808.23323.1001@home>

Isaac Atilano writes:

> 
> I vote null.
> That way I contribute to the 10% quorum but I don't sway the vote
> because I really don't care whether we block yahoo. I will be just as
> happy either way.
> 
> I somewhat agree with Mike. I would like to know who the leadership is
> and who has official say in the voting protocol. That way I don't waste
> my time participating in meaningless procedures.
> 
> TCLUG leaders make yourselves known to me. Now is the time to represent!

There have been calls in the past to have a proper management structure with 
president, secretary and whatnot, it was even proposed at some point to 
incorporate tclug into a non-profit organization, but for the most part the 
leadership of tclug has been left to the old timers, Scot Jenkins, Ben 
'SuperQ' Kochie, Bob 'Basic' Tanner, Mike Bresnahan, Yaron, Florin Iucha, 
Ben 'IdiotBen' Lutgens,  and yes, Chad 'Chewie' Walstrom. this is by no 
means a complete list, there are many more and the list changes 
as some people drop off of the face of the earth and as others join them.

Of course TCLUG does just fine and leadership comes in very rarely if ever 
really.

As this list has evolved most of us look at these people as the elders of 
the TCLUG , while their opinions are not binding they do set the overall 
tone and are respected, these opinions are a general guide that generally 
gets followed. when these elders of the TCLUG post i always read their 
posts and whatever they say i cannot help but respect it. So my advice to 
all the newbies on the list is this: Learn who the elders are and respect 
your elders.




From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Tue Jun 27 15:15:58 2006
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:15:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <cone.1151438594.734808.23323.1001@home>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<cone.1151438594.734808.23323.1001@home>
Message-ID: <1151439358.12979.264802333@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Well said! :)


----- Original message -----
From: tclug at beitsahour.net
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban

Isaac Atilano writes:

> 
> I vote null.
> That way I contribute to the 10% quorum but I don't sway the vote
> because I really don't care whether we block yahoo. I will be just as
> happy either way.
> 
> I somewhat agree with Mike. I would like to know who the leadership is
> and who has official say in the voting protocol. That way I don't waste
> my time participating in meaningless procedures.
> 
> TCLUG leaders make yourselves known to me. Now is the time to represent!

There have been calls in the past to have a proper management structure
with 
president, secretary and whatnot, it was even proposed at some point to 
incorporate tclug into a non-profit organization, but for the most part
the 
leadership of tclug has been left to the old timers, Scot Jenkins, Ben 
'SuperQ' Kochie, Bob 'Basic' Tanner, Mike Bresnahan, Yaron, Florin
Iucha, 
Ben 'IdiotBen' Lutgens,  and yes, Chad 'Chewie' Walstrom. this is by no 
means a complete list, there are many more and the list changes 
as some people drop off of the face of the earth and as others join
them.

Of course TCLUG does just fine and leadership comes in very rarely if
ever 
really.

As this list has evolved most of us look at these people as the elders
of 
the TCLUG , while their opinions are not binding they do set the overall 
tone and are respected, these opinions are a general guide that
generally 
gets followed. when these elders of the TCLUG post i always read their 
posts and whatever they say i cannot help but respect it. So my advice
to 
all the newbies on the list is this: Learn who the elders are and
respect 
your elders.



_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org  Tue Jun 27 16:00:35 2006
From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (Joseph Key)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:00:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <44A19C73.3000606@tomobiki.dyndns.org>

I vote to lift the ban.

Joseph.



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 16:17:04 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:17:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
Message-ID: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>

Mike wrote:
> What a bizarre system for voting -- spam the list with votes.

Yet it's very public, isn't it?  You don't have to worry about someone
"stuffing the ballot," since ever vote is right there in the list
archive.  As such, there is no official declaration of procedure for
these things.  We have no constitution, we are not a not-for-profit.
You'll simply have to work with what is reasonable to expect from a
loosely organized group of individuals, the definition of which is
membership on the list and/or attendance to TCLUG events.

In any case, if you all prefer to keep ballots off list, send them to
me at chewie-yahoovote at wookimus.net.  That is, if you trust me. ;-)
I've added a procmail recipe to simply shunt all emails to that
address to a single folder.

I agree with Florian's assertion that 80 votes is the quorum.  Because
of the 4th of July holiday next week, voting should probably end at
11:59:00 on July 7th, 2006.

Replace the space between the brackets with a single "X".  Please vote
so quorum of 80 votes is reached, even if you only choose option C.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[ ] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

These people do not need to send in a vote, as it is already recorded:

Option A: [9]
	John T. Hoffoss,  Chad Walstrom, Nick Thompson, Chuck Cole,
	Dan Armbrust, Jonathon Jongsma, Justin Kremer, Mike Miller,
	Joseph Key

Option B: [2]
	Spencer Butler, Munir Nassar (Ein)

Option C: [1]
	Isaac Atilano

Votes Needed for Quorum: 68
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Tue Jun 27 16:36:17 2006
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (David Alanis)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:36:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
Message-ID: <20060627213617556a3695fe@mail.smumn.edu>


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[ ] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[X] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From jeff at digitalguy.net  Tue Jun 27 18:03:11 2006
From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeffrey Lehman)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:03:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <44A1B92F.9070006@digitalguy.net>


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


Jeff Lehman


From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 18:15:04 2006
From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:15:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <44A19C73.3000606@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<44A19C73.3000606@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <7d3948c70606271615o36d214f4kd063e870f45de3a3@mail.gmail.com>

I vote to stick it to the man!

(but you are the man, sir.  exactly)


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Tue Jun 27 18:19:23 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:19:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] nslu2 - anyone playing with it locally? (open slug,
 unslung, debianslug, gentooslug, etc)
Message-ID: <44A1BCFB.8030209@mchsi.com>

hi all,
  any on the list been playing around with an nslu2? if not you should 
check it out. it is a really cool little linux nas device for $80 w/ 2 
usb2 ports and an ethernet port, and there is a cool little linux 
community sprouting up around it. check out http://nslu2-linux.org


Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx







From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 18:30:22 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:30:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <7d3948c70606271615o36d214f4kd063e870f45de3a3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271357290.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1151435720.6162.264796671@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<44A19C73.3000606@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
	<7d3948c70606271615o36d214f4kd063e870f45de3a3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250606271630x2fdce816vb5c8005ecc406505@mail.gmail.com>

I vote lift the ban

//

{or conversely, ban all free emails. But there won't be near as much
of a list left.}

ps-count the first, not the second. just to be clear. ;)

                          -jordan

On 6/27/06, Matthew Johnson <mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I vote to stick it to the man!
>
> (but you are the man, sir.  exactly)
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From danbsmith at comcast.net  Tue Jun 27 19:01:53 2006
From: danbsmith at comcast.net (Dan Smith)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:01:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 18, Issue 50
In-Reply-To: <mailman.474.1151416404.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.474.1151416404.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <44A1C6F1.6080900@comcast.net>

tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> 	tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. OMG (Sam MacDonald)
>    2. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Chad Walstrom)
>    3. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Chad Walstrom)
>    4. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Chad Walstrom)
>    5. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (tclug at beitsahour.net)
>    6. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Mike Miller)
>    7. Re: OMG (smac at visi.com)
>    8. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Mike Miller)
>    9. Re: OMG (Erik Anderson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:41:15 -0500
> From: Sam MacDonald <smac at visi.com>
> Subject: [tclug-list] OMG
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Message-ID: <44A09ACB.4020808 at visi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> What the heck, I feel like I've been spamed.
> Enough with the Yahoo and Free Mail Lise.
>
> This has nothing to do with LINUX!
>
> If you don't like something change it, if you don't want something get 
> rid of it.
>
> But don't whine about it.
>
> Sam.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:04:47 -0500
> From: Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> To: tclug-list-bounces+chewie=wookimus.net at mn-linux.org
> Cc: TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Message-ID: <20060627050447.83A9B70E7 at skuld.wookimus.net>
>
> "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>  wrote:
>   
>> Actually the first word was "Denied.".  
>>     
>
> Yes.  A good word it is, too.  I like it served with a slight edge of
> sarcasm and a crooked grin.
>
>   
>> After gmane came back up (it was down for 4 hours), I spent 2 hours
>> trying to figure out how to access it via e- mail.  It supports web
>> access,
>>     
>
> There's the ticket!  View it in frames/threaded with javascript
> enabled.  Choose the "Post" drop-down "-Action-".  Violla!
>
>   
>> nntp, and RSS, but no e-mail that I've seen.  According to it's o
>> verview, it's designed to allow users to access a mailing list via
>> these interfaces.
>>     
>
> Yep.  Great system.
>
>   
>> Any one who actually uses it as an e-mail gateway, please let me
>> know.
>>     
>
> It's not an email gateway.  Use the web front-end to post.
>   
In Replying to Sam Mcdonald, I have to agree with him.  This is nothing 
to do with Linux anymore Tc-Lug(If it ever did).  This is turning into a 
big argument and it doesn't effect tc-lug any more.  So, please take the 
fight somewhere else.  If this is a personal war then it needs to be 
settled via personal email, not Public Issue.  Point said, please stop 
arguing about this or take it somewhere else.

Dan



From thecubic at thecubic.net  Tue Jun 27 19:04:41 2006
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (David Carlson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:04:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <44A1B92F.9070006@digitalguy.net>
References: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<44A1B92F.9070006@digitalguy.net>
Message-ID: <6784.163.231.6.86.1151453081.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
David Carlson
thecubic at thecubic.net


From peter.chase at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 19:51:22 2006
From: peter.chase at gmail.com (Peter Chase)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:51:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060627211704.2D4F0A70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <e63a2c7d0606271751r29a1fde0ybac93ef21c169036@mail.gmail.com>

>
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option C: None of the above
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


-Pete Chase
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From john.meier at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 21:47:10 2006
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:47:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: nslu2 - anyone playing with it locally? (open
	slug, unslung, debianslug, gentooslug, etc)
In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0606271933k552f1476sde675a319762eeab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44A1BCFB.8030209@mchsi.com>
	<65293fcc0606271933k552f1476sde675a319762eeab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0606271947i2bcc705dw5cc3e4264a3eb0f5@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/27/06, nick thompson <nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com> wrote:
>
> hi all,
>   any on the list been playing around with an nslu2? if not you should
> check it out. it is a really cool little linux nas device for $80 w/ 2
> usb2 ports and an ethernet port, and there is a cool little linux
> community sprouting up around it. check out http://nslu2-linux.org




Don't have one, but I was looking for a cheap device to put within a LAN to
provide SSH services - so that I can tunnel snmp queries securely through a
firewall... At first glance this might be a nice little $80 solution...



Nick
>
> "All unix, all the time."
>
> http://npt.ath.cx
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Tue Jun 27 22:58:05 2006
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:58:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <mailman.492.1151449427.12171.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <200606280353.k5S3rIW1014989@delta.twp-llc.com>

> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option C: None of the above
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 23:02:53 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:02:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ballot: Lift the Yahoo! ban (Ends 07/07/2006 23:59:00)
Message-ID: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>

Quorum is 80 votes from existing members of the list.  Voting closes
at 23:59:00 (not 11:59:00) on July 7th, 2006 (next Friday night).

Replace the space between the brackets with a single "X".  Please vote
so quorum of 80 votes is reached, even if you only choose option C.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[ ] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

To see who has voted, visit http://wookimus.net/~chewie/yahoovote.
This is a hypermail HTML archive updated automatically with with each
email sent to chewie-yahoovote at wookimus.net.  Please keep the
discussion of this issue on tclug-list at mn-linux.org.  (I will clean
out the comment-posts later.)

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jun 27 23:17:26 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:17:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <200606280353.k5S3rIW1014989@delta.twp-llc.com> 
References: <200606280353.k5S3rIW1014989@delta.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <20060628041726.9DE0C71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>

"Chris Schumann" <cschumann at twp-llc.com>  wrote:
> > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > ...[snip]...

DOH!  Chris, could you re-send to chewie-yahoovote at wookimus.net, or
send without quotes?  My sed script clipquote.sed applies to emails
sent to the list, but not to the above address.  As you can see, I'll
have to visit the GMANE site or our list archive to see what you
voted.

I've fixed my procmail script to make proper backups before doing any
email alterations, so I won't likely loose emails like this in the
future.
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From strayf at freeshell.org  Tue Jun 27 23:17:52 2006
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:17:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ballot: Lift the Yahoo! ban (Ends 07/07/2006
	23:59:00)
In-Reply-To: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <20060628041752.GA5653@crito>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[x] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

-Steve


From jpschewe at mtu.net  Wed Jun 28 05:55:53 2006
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:55:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban
In-Reply-To: <20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606271207340.29694@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627175211.D789AA70@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <1151492153.13933.2.camel@workstation.mn.mtu.net>

I vote, "Yes, lift the ban"

On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 12:52 -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> I vote, "Yes, lift the Yahoo! ban."
> 
> Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  wrote:
> > OK, now what do we do?
> 
> Just state your vote.  I vote yes, because I it is possible to
> moderate at a user level with the newer mailman software, and have new
> list members moderated by default; something we couldn't do five+
> years ago.  I fully expect those people who vote yes to be willing to
> volunteer as list moderators.
> 

________________________________________________________________________
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see a signature.asc file attached to the message this is my
digital signature.
See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels 
nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any 
powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all 
creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that 
is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39


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From dalan at visi.com  Wed Jun 28 07:33:31 2006
From: dalan at visi.com (dalan at visi.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:33:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
In-Reply-To: <200606280353.k5S3rIW1014989@delta.twp-llc.com>
References: <200606280353.k5S3rIW1014989@delta.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <1151498010.44a2771b01da1@my.visi.com>


 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option C: None of the above
 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+







From sulrich at botwerks.org  Wed Jun 28 07:45:08 2006
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:45:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ballot: Lift the Yahoo! ban (Ends 07/07/2006
	23:59:00)
In-Reply-To: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <44A279D4.3000307@botwerks.org>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
[X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+



-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC


From srcfoo at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 08:26:49 2006
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:26:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ballot: Lift the Yahoo! ban (Ends 07/07/2006
	23:59:00)
In-Reply-To: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30606280626r76a39ac2v33468fb1a08a4d8a@mail.gmail.com>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 [x] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option C: None of the above
 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


From joey.rockhold at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 08:55:17 2006
From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:55:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ballot: Lift the Yahoo! ban (Ends 07/07/2006
	23:59:00)
In-Reply-To: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20060628040253.70ECF71C4@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <101e49ea0606280655w39fc7ec5r94e60a188139f701@mail.gmail.com>

> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
> [ ] Option C: None of the above
> -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


From dan at dandrake.org  Wed Jun 28 10:26:28 2006
From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:26:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] nslu2 - anyone playing with it locally? (open slug,
	unslung, debianslug, gentooslug, etc)
In-Reply-To: <44A1BCFB.8030209@mchsi.com>
References: <44A1BCFB.8030209@mchsi.com>
Message-ID: <20060628152628.GA15476@dandrake.org>

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 at 06:19PM -0500, nick thompson wrote:
> any on the list been playing around with an nslu2? if not you should
> check it out. it is a really cool little linux nas device for $80 w/ 2
> usb2 ports and an ethernet port, and there is a cool little linux
> community sprouting up around it. check out http://nslu2-linux.org

I'd also recommend a look at the Kurobox, a similar device
(http://kurobox.com). Both I and a friend have one, and we trade backup
space with it. In fact, I'm logged into my Kurobox right now to write
this email. Very nice little machine.

Dan

-- 
Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
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From chewie at wookimus.net  Wed Jun 28 10:40:17 2006
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:40:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Vote Update: Lift the Yahoo! Ban
Message-ID: <20060628154017.248A06EFA@skuld.wookimus.net>

The quorum has changed.  Bob has consulted the current list membership
numbers, which now sits at 367.  At 10%, this translates to 37 votes.
Quorum has been met.  The vote is still open.

If you do not see your name in this list, it is either because you did
not explicitly state "yes" (lift the ban), "no" (leave the ban),
"none", "abstain", or one of the options listed.  Or, you simply
haven't sent in a vote yet.

Current number of votes cast: 39 (quorum has been met)

Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban [27]
    John T. Hoffoss,  Chad Walstrom, Nick Thompson, Chuck Cole, Dan
    Armbrust, Jonathon Jongsma, Justin Kremer, Mike Miller, Joseph
    Key, blawrence at qwest.net, Rick Tanner, Jim Crumley, Jeffrey
    Lehman, David Carlson, Peter Chase, James Kaufman, Mark Browne,
    Larry Greenwald, Leif Johnson, Jordan Peacock, Steve Cayford, Tom
    Marble, Eric Peterson, Jon Schewe, dalan at visi.com, steve ulrich,
    Joey Rockhold

Option B: Do not lift the Yahoo! ban [8]
    Spencer Butler, Munir Nassar (Ein), Nate Straz, Jonathan Kline,
    David Alanis, Robert Sinland, gerry <gsker at comcast.net>, Harry
    Penner

Option C: None of the above [4]
    Isaac Atilano, slushpupie at gmail.com, Dany Berg, Andy Moore

Please verify these results as of Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:39:44 -0500 by
visiting http://wookimus.net/~chewie/yahoovote.
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From smac at visi.com  Tue Jun 27 09:55:36 2006
From: smac at visi.com (smac at visi.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:55:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGELDCEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<44A0300E.5070201@gmail.com> <e7pgpv$oph$1@sea.gmane.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606261616190.9191@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20060627051049.7495870E7@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270809300.16988@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0606270838380.21555@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1151420136.44a146e8a0d27@my.visi.com>

And with that I'm off TCLUG.org.

Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:

> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> > the rest of the message looked like a horrible mess in pine for some
> > reason. I just found it here...
> >
> > http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
> >
> > ...and read it fully (and it doesn't look messed up there, so I guess
> > pine had a problem with it).
>
> In case anyone is curious about how that message looked in pine, check
> this out:
>
> http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/tanner_email_in_pine.gif
>
> It isn't pine's fault.  The message is a single plain text attachment and
> if I save it as text and look at it in "less", it is just as messed up.
> How TCLUG's list archive transforms that mess into this neatly-formatted
> message is a mystery to me:
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2006-June/050067.html
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>





From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Tue Jun 27 12:50:11 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:50:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF679@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

Well I guess that settles it.

Bye all.  Nice knowing you.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:26 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 11:25:42AM -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> > If you can all agree that a 10% quorum for a simple majority vote is
> > sufficient to express the opinions of the list, and because 
> it appears
> > that the proposal thread "Proposal: Lift Yahoo! Ban"  has 
> been made by
> > John T. Hoffoss in Message-ID:
> > 
> <914f813c0606270857g196bd42fm1693cde28832035a at mail.gmail.com>, let the
> > vote begin.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > Bob, what is the official number of members on the list?
> 
> Last number I heard was around 750+ subscribers.
> 
> The TCLUG poll attracted 94 votes.
> 
> From my archives (oldest post 27 Nov 2004):
>    grep ^From: * | cut -d: -f4 | cut -d\< -f1 | tr -d \" | 
> sort | uniq | wc -l
> gives 387.
> 
> Based on the previous two numbers, I consider 80 votes an 
> acceptable quorum.
> 
> florin
> 
> -- 
> If we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as lines
> produced but as lines spent.                       -- Edsger Dijkstra
> 


From jeff at digitalguy.net  Wed Jun 28 11:59:00 2006
From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeffrey Lehman)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:59:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
Message-ID: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>

I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
commercial PBX system and why?

If the system is implemented, we would start off using the Digium cards
to interface with two analog phone lines, so I'm curious to see if
anyone has any experience with Asterisk and those cards and any issues
along those lines.

I've put together a proposal for this organization and am just lacking
any previous experience, so responses would be used to put into the
proposal. 

Feel free to respond on or off list whichever you're most comfortable with.

Thanks
Jeff Lehman


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Wed Jun 28 12:13:08 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:13:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF679@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF679@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <44A2B8A4.9070706@mchsi.com>

Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Well I guess that settles it.
> 
> Bye all.  Nice knowing you.
> 
wayne,
  Why are you leaving? The vote is looking incredibly like the yahoo ban 
will in fact be lifted. just wait a second for the process to take it's 
course. I do believe the way the vote is going now, the ban will be lifted.

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 12:20:04 2006
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:20:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
In-Reply-To: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
References: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
Message-ID: <ace41e70606281020o1262f783l7f5980685a8d1db1@mail.gmail.com>

Ive not used Asterisk, but I work a lot with the Wildfire jabber
server, which has some nice plugin support for Asterisk, you might
want to check them out: http://www.jivesoftware.org/wildfire


On 6/28/06, Jeffrey Lehman <jeff at digitalguy.net> wrote:
> I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
> Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
> used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
> issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
> commercial PBX system and why?

-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From j at packetgod.com  Wed Jun 28 12:29:02 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:29:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
In-Reply-To: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
References: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
Message-ID: <44A2BC5E.90007@packetgod.com>

I've got Asterisk at home (running Asterisk at home) and it works pretty 
good although the things you need to worry about are who you are getting 
your service from, if it is using Digium and analog lines no problem if 
it is from a provider do lots of traceroutes before signing up and check 
the boards for any issues with them.  I'm using VoicePulse and some 
dispute between Sprint and Verizon screwed my service for more than two 
weeks.  My provider moved to a new hosting site and now I'm in an ideal 
spot - my ISP to major ISP to their ISP.  Works great.  But I still have 
occational issues which I have not been able to track down and I'm not 
finding good resources to see if it is my router, my asterisk system, or 
the remote asterisk system or whatever.  I'm starting to setup some MRTG 
graphs to see what my router is doing at the time but I'm not getting 
anywhere and it is pretty intermittant. 

In any case I also use the IAXy device (although there is another IAX 
protocol ATA for half the cost now) to interface my old analog phones to 
the system and that works great and I've used a couple little IAX 
softphones that work pretty darn good (although Stunnel was causing some 
issues with them when talking remote).

All in all it is a great system with lots of power and flexibility, but 
I need some more good troubleshooting techniques and perhaps I'm going 
to actually have to pick up a book to start looking into that.  I do 
recommend VoicePulse as they have a very Asterisk friendly IAX service 
that is a half cent a minute long distance and free incoming with an 11$ 
a month per phone number charge, plus that gets you 4 lines.  Although I 
need to investigate if that actually works out to 8 lines as you setup 
the two redundant servers each with 4 lines each.

I did work for a large company that ran it for all phone systems and we 
had no issues but we were using all PRI lines to connect to the PSTN.

--j

Jeffrey Lehman wrote:
> I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
> Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
> used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
> issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
> commercial PBX system and why?
>
> If the system is implemented, we would start off using the Digium cards
> to interface with two analog phone lines, so I'm curious to see if
> anyone has any experience with Asterisk and those cards and any issues
> along those lines.
>
> I've put together a proposal for this organization and am just lacking
> any previous experience, so responses would be used to put into the
> proposal. 
>
> Feel free to respond on or off list whichever you're most comfortable with.
>
> Thanks
> Jeff Lehman
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   




From sac at cheesecake.org  Wed Jun 28 12:39:03 2006
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:39:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
In-Reply-To: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
References: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
Message-ID: <20060628173903.GA10678@cheesecake.org>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 at 11.59.00 -0500, Jeffrey Lehman wrote:
> I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
> Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
> used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
> issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
> commercial PBX system and why?
> 
> If the system is implemented, we would start off using the Digium cards
> to interface with two analog phone lines, so I'm curious to see if
> anyone has any experience with Asterisk and those cards and any issues
> along those lines.

I used Asterisk and a Digium card to build an IVR and voice paging system.
Works pretty well.  I have no experience with more commercial systems,
so I can't compare them.

Only issue I had was that our machines were Sun V40z machines and on at
least one of them, loading the card's kernel modules caused the machine
to immediately reboot.  The card was observed to work in another V40z.
I presume this is a slightly dodgy PCI implementation on Sun's or
Digium's part.

We took the issue up with Sun support, who told us that the card was not
on their list of supported hardware, so they did not care.  Due to this
as well as the multiple SCSI problems we have had with those machines,
we responded that they were no longer our vendor.

Also, with that machine, we only hooked up phone lines, but we would have
had another issue if we wanted to hook up analog phones as the Digium card
requires power from a molex connector thing to provide ringing voltage to
phones, but the V40z machine has no such wires floating around inside it.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Wed Jun 28 12:43:55 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:43:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
In-Reply-To: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF687@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
References: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF687@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <44A2BFDB.3090103@mchsi.com>

Wayne Johnson wrote:
> I left because of some hate mail I was receiving.  Figured a little time off to let thing settle down would be a good idea.
> 


Wayne,
  I would like to think that no one on this list would send hate mail to 
you. I hope you decide to come back, as we all benefit from each other's 
experiences.

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx


From j at packetgod.com  Wed Jun 28 13:12:50 2006
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:12:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
In-Reply-To: <20060628173903.GA10678@cheesecake.org>
References: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
	<20060628173903.GA10678@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <44A2C6A2.60700@packetgod.com>

Oh and I forgot to mention that I've implemented Cisco and ShoreTel as 
well andAsterisk is no where near them as far as ease of setup, 
features, user experience and whatnot.  But it is depending on size of 
implementation up to 1 billion dollars cheaper.  It also has all the 
features you probably want and is gaining features everyday (where is my 
find me follow me one?) so it is still a good way to go especially for a 
very small office.

For the simplest easiest VOIP system ShoreTel is my favorite, so easy 
normally we have the receptionist managing the MACs (moves adds changes) 
for the company.  And for a small company we can implement in a day.  
But the web interface for Asterisk isn't bad either.  If you already 
have Cisco routers the Cisco Express system is pretty cool, its 
basically a little linux box on a network module you just hook up to 
your router (that has an open NM slot and meets the minimum specs).  
Then you can just get some analog or PRI WICs and you are good to go, 
also great for backup features for remote offices.

Lots more to say, but no time to say it in...

--j
Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 at 11.59.00 -0500, Jeffrey Lehman wrote:
>   
>> I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
>> Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
>> used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
>> issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
>> commercial PBX system and why?
>>
>> If the system is implemented, we would start off using the Digium cards
>> to interface with two analog phone lines, so I'm curious to see if
>> anyone has any experience with Asterisk and those cards and any issues
>> along those lines.
>>     
>
> I used Asterisk and a Digium card to build an IVR and voice paging system.
> Works pretty well.  I have no experience with more commercial systems,
> so I can't compare them.
>
> Only issue I had was that our machines were Sun V40z machines and on at
> least one of them, loading the card's kernel modules caused the machine
> to immediately reboot.  The card was observed to work in another V40z.
> I presume this is a slightly dodgy PCI implementation on Sun's or
> Digium's part.
>
> We took the issue up with Sun support, who told us that the card was not
> on their list of supported hardware, so they did not care.  Due to this
> as well as the multiple SCSI problems we have had with those machines,
> we responded that they were no longer our vendor.
>
> Also, with that machine, we only hooked up phone lines, but we would have
> had another issue if we wanted to hook up analog phones as the Digium card
> requires power from a molex connector thing to provide ringing voltage to
> phones, but the V40z machine has no such wires floating around inside it.
>
>   




From j_wrocky at comcast.net  Wed Jun 28 13:53:18 2006
From: j_wrocky at comcast.net (j_wrocky at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:53:18 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Vote off list
Message-ID: <062820061853.29339.44A2D01E000AE02A0000729B220073436497050C019D99A106@comcast.net>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
X  Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
[ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jerry W


From nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com  Wed Jun 28 15:42:57 2006
From: nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com (nick thompson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:42:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] nslu2 - anyone playing with it locally? (open slug, unslung,
 debianslug, gentooslug, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20060628152628.GA15476@dandrake.org>
References: <44A1BCFB.8030209@mchsi.com> <20060628152628.GA15476@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <44A2E9D1.3020006@mchsi.com>

Dan Drake wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 at 06:19PM -0500, nick thompson wrote:
>> any on the list been playing around with an nslu2? if not you should
>> check it out. it is a really cool little linux nas device for $80 w/ 2
>> usb2 ports and an ethernet port, and there is a cool little linux
>> community sprouting up around it. check out http://nslu2-linux.org
> 
> I'd also recommend a look at the Kurobox, a similar device
> (http://kurobox.com). Both I and a friend have one, and we trade backup
> space with it. In fact, I'm logged into my Kurobox right now to write
> this email. Very nice little machine.
> 
> Dan
> 
Dan,
  Thanks a lot for the recommendation! WOW! This thing looks insanely 
cool. I may home some questions for you when mine arrives, would it be 
ok if I emailed you about them? (off list I mean..)

anyway, thanks

Nick

"All unix, all the time."

http://npt.ath.cx




> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From swaite at sbn-services.com  Wed Jun 28 16:06:40 2006
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:06:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk
In-Reply-To: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
References: <44A2B554.6050504@digitalguy.net>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200606281606.AA06400024@sbn-services.com>

I have been using Asterisk for over a year now, since September 05 using Asterisk at home (which is now Trixbox). The one advantage of
using Asterisk is it is really the only true IP telephony server that uses IAX2 protocol, which is a godsend to avoid firewall/NAT
issues. Unfortunately STUN is just not applicable in many situations. 

Currently for my small business we have Digium cards connected to the PSTN. Since September the server has only gone down once, due to
a power failure in the building. Other than that I have never found a system so complicated, yet so simple to use, as well as so very
very stable. Would I recommend over a commercial PBX, by all means. Especially for smaller businesses where money is tight, there really
is no better alternative. Overall, asterisk works out to be an even more complete solution than even the Cisco CM with Unity. 

Right now the VOIP server is a dual 500Mhz with 768MB RAM. Using SNMP I have collected months of statistics and never has the server
been even close to being underpowered. This while the server is managing multiple connections via PSTN as well as strict IP to IP
communications.

Now the one drawback is this. The greatest feature of Asterisk as I said is the IAX2 protocol. Sadly as of now there really are no
decent IAX2 compatible phones, at least for the US market. Those that are available come from some really shady companies in China. On
the other hand if the requirement does not specify any Internet communication then SIP works just fine, and any SIP compatible phone
will work. We have a mix of Cisco 7910s and 7940s. One of which I have at home connected via VPN. 

Depending upon several factors, you really need to take a good examination of whether to use Trixbox (which is essentially AAH 3.0) or
build asterisk within Fedora, Suse, or another distro. One advantage of using Trixbox is the distro is essentially wipe of all
unnecessary junk, leaving that which can or will be used. More so you do have a rather high level of confidence that the system will be
up and running with little to no complications. Essentially the components have been pre-tested for you. If going the other route using
Fedora (recommend) or Suse (not recommended) please factor in that once it is up and running you really need to give it a good workout.

My first Asterisk was built on both Fedora, with a test on Suse. The one thing that got me to move to Asterisk was it seemingly could
build Zaptel support with my Wildcard, where as the Fedora and Suse were very problematic. 

My recommondation for build is this. Skip Linux software raid all together and build using hardware hot swappable RAID. For the number
of users you have 9GB is way more than enough, at least to begin with. Most likely if this is a new server, the lowest you can get
anyways is 36GB which is more than enough. Once installed and configured, image the drive with something like Acronis, and burn it to
DVD. Afterward using numerous utilities (AMP has its included) you can back up the conf and mail files to whatever schedule you wish.
In the event of a disaster recovery, restore the image and copy over the config files and you will be back up in less than 20 minutes
(our own disaster tests took 10 minutes to recover from complete system failure). This method allows you to skip haveing to build the
Zaptel support for the cards.

Lastly, as for issues...I can not think of anything, other than that which I created! Seriously, the only problem I ever had was doing
yum I was not paying attention and did not notice that the kernal was upgraded. Well this required a rebuild of Zaptel. Truthfully this
was my own *&$# fault for being lazy and not paying attention. Luckily this was on a test machine. From what I have read so far Trixbox
has removed this issue (this actually happened to quite a few users, with a big surpise when they rebooted their servers).

Other than that I have yet to encounter one single issue or problem. Suffice to say this has caused me to be a very big proponent of
Asterisk. Over this time I have had more problems with Samba and Apache2

Can't think of anything else to say. I will be more than happy to answer any questions.

Sean Waite


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Lehman <jeff at digitalguy.net>
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:59:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Share your experience with Asterisk

> I'm planning on setting up a small phone system (~5 phones) using
> Asterisk for an organization and I'd like to hear what others who have
> used Asterisk think of it.  What do you like about Asterisk and what
> issues have you had?  Would you recommend using Asterisk over a
> commercial PBX system and why?
> 
> If the system is implemented, we would start off using the Digium cards
> to interface with two analog phone lines, so I'm curious to see if
> anyone has any experience with Asterisk and those cards and any issues
> along those lines.
> 
> I've put together a proposal for this organization and am just lacking
> any previous experience, so responses would be used to put into the
> proposal. 
> 
> Feel free to respond on or off list whichever you're most comfortable with.
> 
> Thanks
> Jeff Lehman
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From wjohnson at mqsoftware.com  Wed Jun 28 12:17:26 2006
From: wjohnson at mqsoftware.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:17:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
Message-ID: <63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF687@emailmn.mqsoftware.com>

I left because of some hate mail I was receiving.  Figured a little time off to let thing settle down would be a good idea.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nick thompson [mailto:nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:13 PM
> To: Wayne Johnson
> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> 
> 
> Wayne Johnson wrote:
> > Well I guess that settles it.
> > 
> > Bye all.  Nice knowing you.
> > 
> wayne,
>   Why are you leaving? The vote is looking incredibly like 
> the yahoo ban 
> will in fact be lifted. just wait a second for the process to 
> take it's 
> course. I do believe the way the vote is going now, the ban 
> will be lifted.
> 
> Nick
> 
> "All unix, all the time."
> 
> http://npt.ath.cx
> 


From danbsmith at comcast.net  Fri Jun 30 12:44:25 2006
From: danbsmith at comcast.net (Dan Smith)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:44:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 18, Issue 62
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1151686803.17798.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.5.1151686803.17798.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <44A562F9.8070207@comcast.net>

tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> 	tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Yahoo mail access to this mailing list (Wayne Johnson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:17:26 -0500
> From: "Wayne Johnson" <wjohnson at mqsoftware.com>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
> To: "nick thompson" <nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com>
> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<63BEA5E623E09F4D92233FB12A9F79431FF687 at emailmn.mqsoftware.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I left because of some hate mail I was receiving.  Figured a little time off to let thing settle down would be a good idea.
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nick thompson [mailto:nicholas.thompson1 at mchsi.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:13 PM
>> To: Wayne Johnson
>> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Yahoo mail access to this mailing list
>>
>>
>> Wayne Johnson wrote:
>>     
>>> Well I guess that settles it.
>>>
>>> Bye all.  Nice knowing you.
>>>
>>>       
>> wayne,
>>   Why are you leaving? The vote is looking incredibly like 
>> the yahoo ban 
>> will in fact be lifted. just wait a second for the process to 
>> take it's 
>> course. I do believe the way the vote is going now, the ban 
>> will be lifted.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> "All unix, all the time."
>>
>> http://npt.ath.cx
>>
>>     
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 18, Issue 62
> ******************************************
>
>
>   
Wayne,

Sorry to see you go, as a fellow Linux user.  Hope to see you around.  
Sorry to hear about the Hate Mail you were getting, I don't think anyone 
should ever get hate mail for expressing their opinon.  Espically since 
we are in the Public Domain. 

Dan



From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 15:09:06 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:09:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Bizarre OpenOffice Base problems
Message-ID: <bada98250606301309s2399897ej1fba44053eb4542b@mail.gmail.com>

I also detailed the question here
(http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=38688) a couple days
back, but no replies on that front yet...

Some forms work (edit the main table) but others don't, and I can't
explain it. If you'd like to see it for yourself, the file is here
(http://hewhocutsdown.googlepages.com/PCD1.1.odb)

It'll save me tons of time if I can work this, and I have all the
appropriate queries in place (not on the uploaded one however).

Thanks in advance

              -jordan


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 15:11:04 2006
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:11:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Bizarre OpenOffice Base problems
In-Reply-To: <bada98250606301309s2399897ej1fba44053eb4542b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250606301309s2399897ej1fba44053eb4542b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250606301311n764cb5e2le9abb31222c6106d@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, that was a bit rude of me, merely linking to the info and not
talking about it on the list.

I'm using OpenOffice.org on Ubuntu with Sun's version of Java. It's
the most current version of everything as packaged for Ubuntu (so,
like, 1-month old)

The kicker is that the main query/form in the linked database below
('Scanned') works beautifully. I just can't replicate that anywhere
else, and need to.

Thanks again.

                -jordan

On 6/30/06, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also detailed the question here
> (http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=38688) a couple days
> back, but no replies on that front yet...
>
> Some forms work (edit the main table) but others don't, and I can't
> explain it. If you'd like to see it for yourself, the file is here
> (http://hewhocutsdown.googlepages.com/PCD1.1.odb)
>
> It'll save me tons of time if I can work this, and I have all the
> appropriate queries in place (not on the uploaded one however).
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>               -jordan
>


From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Fri Jun 30 15:27:21 2006
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:27:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Voting off List
Message-ID: <20060630202721.GA5174@mail.el-swifto.com>

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 [X] Option A: Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option B: Do not Lift the Yahoo! ban
 [ ] Option C: None of the above
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota