First, opinions are like assh*les... Everybody got one. Everybody's stinks but yours. That having been said, and philosophical/political/religious issues aside: that $20 tab you rang up - will cost the server 8% for federal/state/local taxes (this is based on Indiana laws, of which I can speak to) - will cost the server 4% (additionally) to the bus-person Now we can lay aside the whole 'in Europe they...', cause a quick 2nd grade check of geography will reveal that WE AREN'T THERE! If it comes as a surprise to anybody at this point that tips are expected as part of your dining experience, perhaps there are more remedial classes for you. 15% is the norm. Now I have worked waiting tables (briefly, but it's there, and there's a reason I DON'T any more, but I digress....), and it IS my responsibility to give you service. You came out to dinner to 'be served' - you expect drinks refilled, extra napkins, suggestions of what the specialty of the house is, possibly what beverage goes with the meal (wine, for instance), dessert options, doggy bags, and crayons for the rugrats. If I perform all these tasks in an acceptable manner it is your responsibility to conform to what is expected and tip - some do, some don't - but it IS expected. (Again, I'm not going into philosophical points here on whether 'it should be' or 'shouldn't be' - it's JUST THE WAY IT IS IN THE US.) And the established norm for this is 15%. Most places put a surcharge on groups of 20% because the wait staff is having to take an inordinate amount of time on a single group instead of taking more tables w/ likely a larger tip opportunity - and to prevent the 'don't's from skipping out on it. Now that I've wailed away at that point, I also HIGHLY recommend that if you get substandard service, PLEASE pay by plastic... you get that $20 tab and received nasty service PUT DOWN YOUR 2 CENTS - literally! I can't tell you how many .02 tips I've put down. See, they have to do that whole reconciliation thing at the end of the shift, and that .02 is REQUIRED to be run thru the machine again. And any manager that sees this will KNOW it wasn't a mistake (where it COULD be written off as one if you didn't tip at all), questions follow, and you've made your statement and got it heard. BUT THE BIGGEST POINT IS... IF you are going to participate in the beermeetings - where social morays DEMAND you tip 15% (or more - I don't recall EVER getting bad service at one of our beermeetings - of which I've missed very few all in all), choke it up or stay home and choke your chicken because the REST OF US WILL PICK UP THE SLACK. I may like you. I may even like you enough to buy you a beer (hey! I said 'a', as in ONE). But $60 is just plain taking cash out of my pocket. Wil "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - George Orwell _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.mn-linux.org tclug-list at mn-linux.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list